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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 15 Jun 1983

Vol. 343 No. 7

Private Members' Business. - Independent Local Broadcasting Authority Bill, 1983: Second Stage (Resumed).

The following motion was moved by Deputy Leyden on Wednesday 8 June 1983:
"That the Bill be now read a Second Time."
Debate resumed on amendment No. 1:
To delete all words after "That" and substitute the following:—
"Dáil Éireann declines to give a second reading to the Bill:
(a) because the Bill as presented is concerned only with the establishment of local broadcasting stations on commercial principles and does not make adequate provision for community oriented services, and
(b) because it is the Government's intention to proceed at an early date with legislation for the orderly development of local community radio services."
—(Minister of State at the Department of Posts and Telegraphs.)

Again this evening I am asking the Minister and the Minister of State to realise that unless greater emphasis is placed on the private enterprise element of his proposed Bill we will have what I would term muzzled television and radio coverage and that would be very undesirable. The Minister should give serious consideration to conducting an up-dated survey on radio listening and on television viewing together with details of the age groups for each provincial region. Such a survey is needed urgently to help us put the situation into some perspective. There has emanated from the Government benches the definite attitude that the commercial input is to be frowned on, that it is to be regarded in some way with derision that anyone would hope to put forward an enterprise that would derive profits or create jobs from initiative of that kind.

It is important that the Minister consider the safeguarding of the existing jobs in our national radio and television network and that he should do this by way of allowing healthy competition from private enterprise. First, though, we must conduct a survey that would leave us with some focal point on which to base our arguments. Deputy Leyden has made a forceful case for a dovetailing of the local radio and television networks coupled with the commercial aspect. The track record in this area in England has proved the case. Regardless of whether we agree with the situation, a survey here on programme popularity would probably reveal that "Coronation Street" is the most viewed programme. There has developed the hideous situation in which night after night many English programmes are watched in Ireland while at the same time we are not allowing to evolve here a type of new venture. The pirate radio stations have proved the point that young people are prepared to turn away from television viewing, a development that many parents welcome because at least while listening to radio one has the opportunity of doing some work also.

The reason for the flourishing of the local radio stations is the very good quality of their FM and stereo outlet. I wonder if the Minister is in the habit of listening to these stations, to Radio Nova, Radio Sunshine or any of these commercial stations. I listen to them on my car stereo unit. They are very good, so perhaps it would be an excellent idea if the Minister would listen to them, too. They provide very restful entertainment on long journeys particularly.

There is this begrudging attitude that seems to militate against private incentive. English products are promoted flagrantly on many Irish programmes but at a time when our balance of payments situation is under immense pressure as a result of the indiscriminate importation of foodstuffs and of all sorts of goods, a very forcible case can be made to encourage Irish radio and television stations to promote our products. Why not call on the people involved in radio and television to promote directly the sale of Irish goods? I am anticipating the age-old answer about infringing regulations and so on but if we have regard to the techniques that are used by some of our continental counterparts in promoting the sale of their nationally produced goods, we will realise the scope we have in this area. The two pirate stations to which I have referred are engaged in the direct promotion of Irish goods as one will realise if one listens to them for a period of time.

There is the question also of the employment content. The more radio and television competition there is, the more jobs will be created not only for those who are fortunate enough to act as commentators on the networks but also for those who work in the background and so on. The Minister of State has the advantage of having worked in television. He will realise the huge number of people who are involved in the production of a programme. It is startling to realise that in some of the pirate stations there are from 50 to 75 people or even more employed round the clock. That is a factor that should be taken into consideration.

The Minister made some comment about phasing out the pirate stations rather than closing them down.

It was changed in the script. If it is the Minister's intention to phase them out I suggest that the Minister create machinery whereby they could apply for licences and not be put into oblivion. This will cause a tremendous void in the whole area of broadcasting. From the Dublin point of view the vast listenership is weighted towards the pirate stations. RTE 2 and Radio 2 have pulled up their socks and improved dramatically and this should be recognised. I would point out that newspapers use advertising on radio and television to their advantage to sell newspapers. That is right because their competition is directed against English newspapers. We all know the slogans such as "the Herald has it" or "The Changing Times" and so on. Advertising like that encourages people to buy an Irish newspaper but I wonder what effect this Bill will have on provincial newspapers who depend on local advertising just to keep them going. We cannot expect provincial papers to survive just from their circulation.

The Deputy has two minutes left.

Thank you. A lot of local and provincial newspapers will be under direct threat if the scheme as presented is followed through. A lot of the stations beam right across the country. Many people have made the point that people living in isolated rural areas are being deprived of local radio. That argument can be very shortsighted because people living in such areas generally want to be informed of the national situation. We are not being totally honest about this matter when we say that people are being deprived of local radio. It is a pipe dream that is being foisted on people in the country and there might not be a need or a demand for it. I would earnestly urge the Minister to conduct a survey. The Minister with his television background would be expert at that. It is something that should be published——

Acting Chairman

The time is up.

——and I look forward to the Minister doing that without delay. I recommend that the House accept our Bill as put forward with no apologies for pushing for private enterprise.

I realise there is a time limit to this debate and I will not detain the House unduly. I support the amendment in the name of the Minister of State on the grounds that the Bill before us is concerned almost solely with the establishment of local broadcasting stations on a commercial basis. This commercial basis is totally unsatisfactory and no provision is made for community-orientated services. I am completely satisfied that the Minister is serious in his intention to bring legislation before the House probably after the Summer Recess, to legislate for the orderly development of local community services. If Fianna Fáil were really sincere in their desire to grapple effectively with the spiralling of illegal broadcasting stations, they had ample time to do so in recent years. They failed to take action and their inaction can be said to have condoned to a large extent the continuation of these illegal stations. A feeble effort was made by Fianna Fáil to introduce a Bill which died on the dissolution of this House, but there was no attempt to reintroduce that Bill when the opportunity afforded itself to the Fianna Fáil Government. This new Bill is very much like the old Bill. It has not changed its substance, character and principles and still displays a callous disregard for the survival of the small community stations down the country. It still panders to commercial interest. In a situation where it has been said that those who control local radio and television were virtually being granted a licence to print their own money, this is a serious problem for this House. The House must intervene to see to it that local radio stations are given a fair chance of survival in this battle with the speculators. Real democratic community radio cannot survive unless the Minister comes to their rescue and sees to it that the vested interests in this area do not prevail. If anyone is in any doubt about the real intentions of the Fianna Fáil Bill then and now, one need only refer to the editorial in the Irish Press of 4 May 1983 which stated:

The Fianna Fáil Bill of 1981 which fell with that Government, proposed a system of local broadcasting in which commercial interests would probably have dominated and in which the profit motive would likely have been the prime one.

That is still the intention behind this Bill and consequently it has to be opposed. I am voicing the sentiments of a rural Deputy on this issue because local community radio has an important role to play in our community. It has become widely accepted by the people that there is a universal desire that it should continue to operate, that it serves a wide need and that it can knit the community together and prove most beneficial to community needs, in giving sheer entertainment as well as educational and cultural value. It is also valuable in the dissemination of news and views appertaining to the lives of the people in the area. Local community radio properly organised on the basis the Minister has in mind can be objective and impartial in the presentation of news and views. I believe moreover that a monopoly by vested interests cannot be relied upon to give fair play in this rather delicate area. They can and do discriminate and misrepresent and all of us in public life are particularly vulnerable to such treatment and are bound to be conscious of it at times. We ask no kudos in public life, merely fair play and the presentation of the role we play in a fair manner. The more we extend this important medium of local radio the better chance there will be of a fair presentation of the views of our people. This is a very important principle. There is a better chance of our people being fully informed in respect of local current affairs and the news and views affecting their interests without prejudice to party or to personalities.

The Bill is dangerous in this area. It proposes the establishment of a broadcasting authority of some eight to 12 members to be appointed by the Government or the Minister of the day. I would be fearful of the implications of vesting such power in a Minister of the calibre of Deputy Leyden if his party were in Government and had the power to impose their designs on the people. I have already adverted to the fact that the Bill is orientated towards commercial interest to the utter detriment of local community interests. We had a fair indication of the thinking of Deputy Leyden when in presenting his Bill he stated.

It is only right that the State would exercise a certain control over the stations and that they would do so in consultation with the Minister. We propose that the programme contracts be for a maximum of five years which would be renewable in most cases if the stations were providing a good service.

Doubtless Deputy Leyden in his potential capacity as a Minister would decide whether a station was good or bad primarily on the basis of its political content or lack of it, and if those operating it did not behave properly he could and would punish them by refusing to renew the licence at the end of five years.

The political clout in the Fianna Fáil Bill was further emphasised when Deputy Leyden went on to state:

We propose that advertisements directed towards religious or political ends or dealing with industrial disputes would have to be gauged carefully and not necessarily be part of the broadcasting material. I would imagine that the word "advertisements" would have a very broad meaning in the mind of the Deputy; he may contradict me if I am wrong. It is difficult to understand why a Minister would conceive of controlling, censoring or prohibiting the broadcasting of religious material but those of us who do not share the political views of such a Minister would have to watch out. Big Daddy is watching over us and the threat is there for all to see, the threat that if we do not conform we will be punished. That is a dangerous aspect of this Bill which I totally reject. I also advise my colleagues to take careful note of what the Deputy said regarding the reporting of strikes. All these are ominous signs and those of us who value freedom of speech and the freedom of the press should take careful note.

I am, therefore, proud and happy that we have in this House a man of the calibre of Deputy Ted Nealon, Minister of State at the Department of Posts and Telegraphs, who has particular responsibility for this vital area of local radio broadcasting. I am completely satisfied that he will bring before us, probably before the end of this year, a measure to deal with this matter. He will do so fairly and responsibly and I am convinced he will give the Irish people what they want and not what the vested interests are clamouring for. He has the integrity, courage and determination to stand up to those powerful vested interests.

I look forward to having legislation enacted which will give us radio services which are genuinely local in character, reflecting local life, achievements and aspirations and uplifting and ennobling the lives of our people. These services will give us objectivity and impartiality in the dissemination of views and news. To suggest that these community stations should be run otherwise is wrong. There must be proper community involvement at all times and commercial considerations and vested interests should not be allowed to dominate or interfere unduly with the operations of these stations. I believe that the Minister of State will conform with this concept and that he is in tune with the needs of our people and worthy of our support.

I want to see justice done to the people of rural Ireland in any legislation of this kind. Listening to this debate one would imagine that the only places that counted were Dublin or the larger cities. There are two radio stations operating in my constituency, Tipperary Community Radio in Tipperary town and CBC Radio in Clonmel. The former is under the control of Muintir na Tire and I need hardly say more. In respect of its operations and conduct and the community effort made by it, it is a model of what a community radio station should be. I would hold it up to the House and the nation as an example par excellence of what local community radio can and should be. It is in conformity with the Minister's intentions and with the spirit of the founder of that great national organisation, the late Canon Hayes. It reflects all that is good and noble in the lives of the people in Tipperary. I have no doubt that when the Minister brings in his legislation he will remember the intrinsic worth of Tipperary radio and ensure that its future and development are fully safeguarded.

Likewise CBC radio in Clonmel has developed over the years and those who operate the station have gained valuable experience. It provides an excellent mix of programmes which is much appreciated and most popular. It is now an integral part of the life of our town. In its present form it might be regarded as a commercial enterprise but the Minister has been told at first hand by the directors that they are prepared to make any necessary changes and take all appropriate steps to conform to the Minister's legislation and the true principles of local community radio. Therefore, the idealism of these young people who run these stations on a voluntary basis must be appreciated and applauded, acknowledged and supported in any legislation that will come before the House.

Would the Deputy elaborate on how a particular illegal radio station had a meeting with the Minister of State, Deputy Nealon?

Would the Deputy allow Deputy Treacy to make his speech?

There is a time limit to this debate. The involvement of our local people in local radio has brought out local talents hitherto unknown and untapped. Without this opportunity to become involved in local radio they would have had no chance ever to become associated with the media. Their chances in that regard are very restricted. They love their work and become experts, gaining knowledge and experience. They do the work voluntarily, unselfishly and proudly on behalf of their community and it would be a tragedy to impede, stultify or destroy such enthusiasm and idealism, so rare in our time. None of them wants to be regarded as a law breaker. These young people want to conform to the law, but most of all they want this sorry mess cleaned up and proper regulations put into operation as quickly as possible.

Therefore, in the proposed legislation I hope the Minister will see to it that the future existence and development of Tipperary Community Radio and Clonmel CBC Radio will be fully safeguarded. They will conform to the rules, they have a right to exist and it is the duty of the State to stimulate, co-ordinate and help their efforts. I am completely satisfied that they will prove worthy of the confidence of the Minister and the House when the legislation is being enacted.

In a Bill of this kind there is no room for small-mindedness or petty selfish thinking. This should not be a device for making money. We have an obligation to legislate for and on behalf of the people and we must not shut our eyes to what is happening all around us in the world. Radio broadcasting of a local nature has come to stay and TV available locally is on the way and will be a reality long before many people think. There is little we can do to black out satellites in the sky and therefore television will be available to all of us.

I agree thoroughly with the Minister of State, Deputy Nealon, that in the near future there will be major advances in the availability of television services, from satellites and through cable. It is safe to predict that in five years viewers in Ireland will have about five satellite stations to choose from in addition to those available. They will be able to receive these communally through cable systems or through a simple antenna dish. It will not be even necessary to put the dish on a chimney. The Minister has told us that there will be major developments in cable TV but this may not develop as quickly as satellite television. Inevitably there will be developments, as in the United States and Canada, where local cable television systems carry as many as 30 or 40 channels. Therefore, it would be invidious of any of us to attempt to put the clock back.

I look forward with confidence to the introduction of the Minister's Bill which, I hope, will meet the needs of our people and give us exactly what we want in respect of community radio, and community television when the time comes. We have here a noble concept in the mind of Deputy Nealon.

I am pleased at the opportunity to speak against this hastily prepared and ill-conceived Opposition Bill, which purports to provide the framework for local radio and local television services by the end of June. Being a rural Deputy I feel I can speak for the community groups around the country that look to this House to provide the legislation which will allow them to set up and take part in local broadcasting for the community by the community.

I would like to put it on the record of the House again that nowhere in the Opposition Bill is there the slightest ray of hope for those community groups. Let us examine briefly this particular aspect of Deputy Leyden's Bill. Section 17 (3) of the Bill clearly states that the Authority

shall not establish a broadcasting station in an area unless the Authority is satisfied that the establishment of a local broadcasting service in such area would be in accordance with good economic principles.

Let there be no mistake that this piece of legislation would discourage the proposed Authority from setting up stations in areas where the monetary return is not assured. I would go further and say that it prevents the Authority from so doing. Where, may I ask, is the social aspect to this legislation? Where are the needs and tastes of small communities in the west of Ireland catered for?

This Bill must be seen for what it is: a cynical attempt at political opportunism at the expense of community groups. It is pandering to the big city commercial "fast buck", fly-by-night companies, who are set to grab the profits and run. Even Deputy Leyden makes no attempt to hide this. In his speech introducing the Bill he says, and I quote, "If there is no commercial aspect to broadcasting it would be difficult for any station to survive in the long term". I believe he has not taken account of the initiative and ability of local groups to work hard and co-operate towards making local radio stations work in areas which would not meet the Opposition's criteria of "good economic principles".

This Bill is almost identical to that which was prepared in the period between 1979 and 1981. As Deputy Nealon mentioned in his speech on this debate, a recent Irish Press editorial referred to the Bill as “a system of local broadcasting in which commercial interests would probably have dominated, and in which the profit motive would likely have been the prime one”. There have been many other comments also on the Bill which was published in 1981.

Does the Deputy now read The Irish Press?

I buy the Irish Independent but I may read The Irish Press.

Perhaps the Deputy could write editorials for them.

Gael Linn, for example commissioned a report on the Future of Irish Local Radio. The authors of this report, both of whom have considerable experience of British broadcasting, considered that the 1981 Bill "was but a very diluted version of the British Broadcasting Authority Act, 1973, showing virtually no originality or even an appreciation of such progress as was made in British experience and thinking and as expressed in their 1980 amending Act". The same report criticised the 1981 Bill for failing to show a developed sense of the diversity of what was already happening on the ground, or a competent grasp of the British model on which it was loosely based. While I would not necessarily accept without reservation the views expressed in the Gael Linn document, I think these comments are of particular interest.

All of the local radio stations operating under the Independent Broadcasting Authority in Britain are commercial stations. There are now almost 50 of these stations and each one of them exists in order to make a profit from its advertising revenue. In general these local stations need a minimum population coverage of about 200,000 in order to generate advertising revenue. In fact, many of the stations are not making profits at present. So the British model to which the Opposition have turned for so much inspiration is purely commercial.

True local radio must have a major local community involvement. The possibility of developing a structure in which the compulsion to make profits for shareholders is absent is worth exploring. An approach on these lines would undoubtedly facilitate programming which would appeal to small audiences and meet the social needs of minorities in the community.

The financing of local radio is fundamental to any debate on the subject. The private enterprise lobby argues that independent local radio should not cost the Exchequer or the television licence payer anything; rather would the service be financed from advertising. This is an over-simplification. The argument stands up in the British environment, where the BBC are financed solely from television licence fees, and independent local radio solely from advertising. Here RTE depend on advertising for approximately 50 per cent of their revenue. The creation of new advertising media would then clearly have implications for RTE and, consequently, for the level of the television licence fee.

The Opposition have offered no comments at all on the implications for RTE of independent local broadcasting services provided under their Bill. This is a most serious omission. How can the national broadcasting service be so completely ignored when legislation proposing a totally new system of broadcasting is proposed? RTE at present provide three national radio channels, including Radio na Gaeltachta. New independent services must clearly have some effect on the existing networks. It would have been reasonable to expect the promoters of this Bill to offer some comment on that aspect, but they have not done so.

Another aspect which the Opposition have ignored in putting forward this Bill is the extent to which local radio services could be provided under it in areas throughout the country. This omission may, of course, have been deliberate because they realise that the commercial principles which are so much a part of this Bill will not allow for widespread local radio services.

Any legislation which does not allow different areas of the country to have equal access to public services is bad legislation. The Opposition Bill makes a point of describing the local broadcasting services provided under it as public services. But if the services can only pay their way in Dublin, Cork and Limerick and the Authority cannot provide services anywhere else, what about the public in Galway or in Deputy Leyden's own area of Roscommon?

What about mine?

I am coming to that later. Broadcasting legislation should facilitate the provision of services in every area of the country, not set out to limit the availability of those services. The Opposition Bill provides for Exchequer funding of up to £10 million for services. Why should the people of Donegal or Longford or Kerry have to provide those funds so that Dublin, Cork and Limerick can have more radio services?.

This Bill does nothing to resolve the problem resulting from the existence of illegal radio stations in practically every county in Ireland. It ignores the interest which is clearly there for local radio services throughout the country and instead concentrates on commercial local radio, which of its nature can only be viable in large cities. That is not a satisfactory approach.

I would like now to turn my attention to Deputy Liam Fitzgerald's contribution in support of this Bill in the House last week. The main thrust of his argument was to "knock" RTE and by comparison praise the services being provided by the pirate stations. Deputy Fitzgerald, of course neglected to place on record some facts before he began to compare RTE and the pirate stations. For instance he neglected to point out that RTE have to pay their staff a proper living wage, they have to pay royalties for music material used on their programmes, pay for their news coverage, and so on. The pirates, by comparison pay very poor wages to their staff in return for long hours, with no security, while the bosses cream off the profits.

If the Deputies opposite feel that the semi-State structures of RTE are out of tune with changing circumstances, then perhaps they might be reminded that the level of income on which RTE were compelled to survive was also out of line with changing circumstances. The livelihood of the national broadcasting service comes from advertising and revenue collected through television licence fees. From December 1980, when they granted an 18 per cent increase in licence fees, until April 1983, when the present Government had a chance to rectify things, RTE were slowly being starved of finance. Deputy Leyden opposite watches for every opportunity to accuse my colleague, the Minister of State Deputy Nealon, of muzzling RTE. TO my mind, the gradual strangulation of RTE by refusing them finance to operate services was a much more serious threat to the freedom of the national broadcasting organisation.

What better way to influence broadcasters than to starve them into submission? In the Opposition's period in Government RTE were being squeezed from two sides. On the one hand, they were being beggared by refusing them a licence fee increase, and on the other hand, pirate stations were allowed the freedom of the air. Some of these pirate stations are now being held up as shining examples of all that is good in Irish broadcasting.

I read with interest Deputy Leyden's reference to the amount of time a Fianna Fáil committee gave to preparing this legislation. Indeed, it speaks volumes for Fianna Fáil committees if the result of their considerable efforts produces the erasure of the word "sound" from the 1981 Local Radio Bill, and one additional sentence consisting of 14 words. The Opposition's belated haste in producing this Bill and their assertion that local stations will be operational by the end of June are noteworthy. This latter claim, of course, is not realistic and the Minister of State, Deputy Nealon, has given the lie to it in no uncertain terms. By rushing ahead and not giving the concept of local radio the attention it deserves, by setting over-hasty deadlines, the Bill is giving the advantage to the private interest groups already broadcasting illegally or at work preparing their applications and proposals. Again community groups and community interests will be sufferers. There is no doubt in my mind that one effect of rushing forward the Bill is to cover illegal broadcasting stations with the cloak of legitimacy.

The Opposition have skipped very quickly over any reference they have made to the very serious problems which pirate radio stations have caused. They have concentrated instead on what they see as the good points of pirate radio. I know that some of the present stations have some good points. But it is difficult to balance those against the very severe problem which some of them have caused to very important radio frequencies.

Quite a number of these problems have already been detailed by my colleagues the Minister of State and the Minister in this debate. I regret to have to say that yet another extremely dangerous problem has come to light.

Sunshine Radio returned to the air last weekend after losing the High Court case which it took against the Minister. Within hours of its resuming broadcasting it was causing severe interference to an international distress and calling frequency. This frequency at 500KHz is used internationally by ships to transmit distress calls. Ships are required to keep a constant watch on this frequency so that an early alarm can be raised in the event of an emergency at sea. The interference in this case almost certainly covered the whole of Dublin Bay and possibly far beyond. Sunshine Radio was positively identified as the source of the interference.

In view of the use of Dublin Bay by passenger and car ferries and other sea traffic the consequences of an unnoticed distress call take on frightening proportions. When the interference was brought to the attention of Sunshine Radio they were unaware of it. The station operators were informed that the only way to ensure that this interference ceased was for the station to close down. They did then close down their medium wave transmitter but they continue to broadcast on VHF. I need hardly say that problems of this nature cannot be allowed to recur.

The provisions of section 18 of the Bill would be quite inappropriate for local television services. This section requires local broadcasting services to maintain high standards in all respects, to offer a broad range of news, information and entertainment consistent with the local character of the service, to require different stations not to broadcast identical or similar material to an extent inconsistent with the local character of services and to utilise to the greatest possible extent Irish produced, recorded, published and performed material. Such provisions, while being perhaps appropriate for radio services, take no account of the cost of television services. How could any local television service afford a range of programming on those lines? Ulster television and BBC Northern Ireland produce significantly less than 10 per cent of their total programming locally; all of the rest of their programming is taken from the UK national networks or is imported. Where would all the local television programming come from here to enable the Authority to fulfil the obligations placed upon it by section 18 of this Bill? In effect the provisions in the Bill would be unworkable in relation to local television services.

Deputy Leyden, in the course of his speech, referred to the problem of the deflector or rebroadcasting systems being used in certain parts of the country to re-broadcast BBC and ITV television signals and suggested that this Bill will allow the proposed Authority to investigate the situation regarding these broadcasting stations and provide an opportunity for licensing. Once again the Deputy shows an extraordinary lack of understanding of the provisions in his own Bill, this despite apparently months of work. The Authority would have no power to license anything. The Opposition suggest that the problems associated with what are called deflectors can be resolved by their Bill. I am sure that they are well aware that this is not the case.

Deputy Wilson, when he was Minister for Posts and Telegraphs, made clear the serious problems associated with licensing rebroadcasting stations. One major problem is that rebroadcasting of British television signals would require, under Irish copyright law, the agreement of the broadcasting Authorities concerned. Those Authorities have repeatedly made clear their interest in reserving that copyright. I am not aware of any country in Europe which has succeeded in reaching agreement for the wholesale rebroadcasting of foreign television signals. I wonder what magical powers the Authority proposed under this Bill will possess bearing in mind that attempts which have been made at the highest level here and attempts elsewhere to reach such agreements have given rise to enormously complex and difficult problems and have come to nought.

It has been claimed that various copyright problems will have to be resolved in any event with the development of satellite television services. Satellite services will undoubtedly be available to viewers throughout this country within a matter of years. The satellite services will not of themselves solve copyright problems; rather they will avoid them, because viewers will be able to receive foreign signals directly. The problem at the moment is that they do not receive the signals directly but rather they are rebroadcast. It is this rebroadcasting which is the main stumbling block in copyright terms. There is a second constraint on widespread television rebroadcasting. That is the question of availability of suitable frequencies. Broadcasting frequencies are allocated under international agreement; the number of frequencies available to this country are not enough for the widespread rebroadcasting of four British television services. It should also be borne in mind that the continued availability of these signals can never be guaranteed. It is always open to the British Authorities to alter the technical characteristics of their television transmitter network for domestic reasons. Any such alteration could effectively wipe out fringe reception of these signals where re-broadcasting systems operate.

The suggestion by the Opposition that their Bill will allow the licensing of rebroadcasting is therefore entirely misleading. It is in any event ludicrous having regard to the terms of the Bill itself. For example, how could the requirements of objectivity and impartiality in news and current affairs provided for in section 19 of the Bill be met by an Irish Authority in respect of British television services? How could the Authority ensure that such television services have regard, for example, to Irish cultural traditions or utilise to the greatest possible extent Irish produced, recorded, published and performed material as provided for in section 18. What would the Broadcasting Complaints Commission do with complaints against British programmes rebroadcast by the Authority. Here again the lack of thought in the hasty introduction of this Bill is self-evident.

Deputy Reynolds. The Deputy appreciates that there is a speaker to conclude at 8.15.

Yes. I am glad to get an opportunity to answer some of the outrageous criticisms that I have heard churned out in script after script from the far side of this House. One would think that they were all saints and scholars on that side and almost forget the great use they made of pirate radio not just in this city but throughout the country at various times when it suited them. All of a sudden the finger points in this direction. Let us be realistic. As Deputy Nealon said, local radio began to mushroom early in the 1970s. I am not a man to come in here and start pointing fingers at dates when various Ministers were in Government, but two parties made up a Government from 1973 to 1977 and there was a Fianna Fáil Government in power for the rest of the time. Divide it any way you like but do not be holier than thou and say that Fianna Fáil did nothing about it. I am not interested in the past, and young people looking at this House tonight are not interested in hearing us talking about who is responsible for this, that or the other. They want to see the problems which exist approached rationally and something done about them. That is what we should be talking about, and not pointing the finger back over the past five or ten years.

I went into the Department of Posts and Telegraphs in December 1979. My predecessor, Deputy Faulkner, had a Bill drafted to take care of the various abuses which were beginning to show in the system, and to strengthen the law to deal with them. There were pirate radios in operation when I went into the Department. I inquired about them. I asked what we could do about them. I was advised that the law was defective. I came back to the Government and we decided that Deputy Faulkner's Bill would be held back until a local radio Bill was produced. A local radio Bill was put on the stocks in April 1981.

In broad principle that is the same Bill as the one before us here tonight. Ministers should not talk about political opportunism. They then took power. They had that Bill and the other Bill in front of them. From what I could gather from questions in this House to the Minister, Deputy Nealon, their thinking is very little removed from the thinking in this Bill. It is very easy to change a few sections if the Government do not believe in them. That is their prerogative as the Government. They did not do that. They took the 1979 Bills off the Order Paper and the then Minister said: "We will bring in two new Bills". As the pressure built up during that period of Coalition Government the 1979 Bill was restored to the Order Paper. In reply to questions from me the Minister said he was preparing his own Bill.

The Minister knows as well as I do why no Bill was proposed. The then Labour Party in Government would not accept anything but the status quo. That is why no work was done on the Bill. That is why nothing was done about it while they were in Government. Now they come in here and talk about what we did or did not do. At least I presented the Bill to the House.

That Bill is being misinterpreted to suit their own point of view. I want to put this on the record of the House. Somebody asked me what I did while I was in that Department. I was not there very long, but I had wide-ranging consultations with everybody connected with the business and the people the Bill would affect in local newspapers and others. Have the Government had any consultations? Have there been consultations with the National Union of Journalists?

I heard the Minister of State, Deputy Donnellan, castigating pirate stations about what they pay or do not pay. I do not know what they pay. There are trade unions around this city who will sort out problems like that. I had discussions with the various interests, community groups, and so on. There is a clear indication in the Bill that not only does it cater for commercial radio but it caters for community radio as well. I want to nail that here and now. The Government side of the House have been trying to put their own interpretation on that, but it is clearly stated for anyone who studies the Bill that community radio and local interests are catered for.

That is the Deputy's interpretation.

The Minister should read the Bill. "Community" is spelled c-o-m-m-u-n-i-t-y. If the Minister cannot recognise the word he should buy a pair of glasses. If he wants to know what standards are in the Bill perhaps I should read out a few of them for him to let him know what the Authority would look for before giving out contracts. Section 18 reads:

(1) In performing its functions the Authority shall, as far as possible, ensure that—

(a) the local broadcasting services provided by it—

(i) maintain high standards in all respects,

(ii) are responsive to the varied interests and concerns of the whole community served by each station.

(iii) have regard to Irish cultural traditions,

(iv) offer a broad range of news, information and entertainment consistent with the local character of the services, and

(v) to utilise to the greatest possible extent Irish produced, recorded, published and performed material——

That is a clear indication to anybody with common sense and logic, any fair-minded person, of what the Authority were supposed to cater for. Fine Gael and Labour could not get agreement the last time they were in Government to present any Bill to the House.

The reality tonight is that they will walk up the steps and through the lobby and vote down this Bill. If this Private Members' Bill achieves nothing more than to make them bring in a Bill to sort out the situation, we will have done a damn good job, and that is what we are here for.

I heard various spokesmen on the far side of the House talking about RTE. Have RTE or have they not been catered for in the Bill? The Minister does not know. I will tell him. When the Independent Local Broadcasting Authority are set up they can receive applications from RTE the same as anybody else, if they want to bid for a station. There is nothing in the Bill to say that there will be only a few radio stations in the country. That is what the Government side say. If they carry through that trend of thought in setting up their own independent radio Authority, I will put a big question mark over their independence. If the Government decide in advance what the independent Authority should decide, the Authority will not be independent. Deputy Leyden and other speakers asked how independent they will be if the Government decide in advance what they will do. That is not giving them the independence which would be vested in them under this Bill.

I heard the Minister, Deputy Nealon, talking about 25 to 30 stations. Perhaps he is right. Who will pay for them? I did not miss much of this debate and, to my knowledge, nobody said who will pay for the 25 to 30 stations. Everybody ignored that. Deputies on the other side of the House are never slow to ask us who will pay for what we propose. Under this Bill, RTE will have the same right to apply. The same criteria will be applied by the independent Authority to RTE as to anybody else. RTE would not be excluded from applying, as the Minister tried to convince everybody they would be.

The Minister is very good at picking out bits of paper and snippets which suit him. In April and May 1981 when I published the Bill, I was asked questions about it. I made it quite clear that RTE could apply if they wished to do so. There was no question that there would be an all commercial licence printing machine to make money for two or three big people around Dublin. At the time RTE presented to me—and I am sure they are on record in the Department—their ideas about a community radio service. In many ways they were very good ideas for the production of a satisfactory solution to the local radio demands around the country. At no time did they put a cost on this. I referred it back to the RTE Authority to be costed. Up to the day I left the Department no cost was put on it. As Minister I would not be responsible for handing out a blank cheque to any semi-State body. Some of them got blank cheques for far too long. I do not know whether it was costed afterwards, but there was no way that I would present to the Government a community radio system which had not a label and cost on it.

We are talking about a figure in the region of £55 million being spent on radio and television broadcasting. This is a small country. This £55 million comes from the taxpayer. The Government should not try to label us as being anti-RTE. At that time I talked to very good people in RTE. The best of them would welcome a little competition because it would sharpen their approach. Competition never killed anybody, and if it did they would have died a lingering death anyway. This was opening up new opportunities to good people in RTE and giving them the opportunity to move into local radio broadcasting.

To be quite blunt I do not know what Ministers have in mind over there. I do not know whether they know themselves. Six weeks ago they were going over to Britain—and I heard them discuss this tonight—to see how successful the stations over there are. Yet we were told last night by the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs if we are to believe it—and in the past few days there was a serious question mark over what you might or might not believe from the lips of that gentleman—I do not know what he has in mind. I do not know whether his mind is made up or otherwise but all I do know is—

There is no need for the Deputy to talk about the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs at all.

I let the Minister of State talk for 20 minutes. I know the truth and I know what happens when the old adrenalin starts to flow. The Government sit over there now and the focus is on them. You took peremptory action to close Radio Nova. I do not know whether the Government decided or who decided to close Radio Nova. I do not know whether it was the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs who decided but I know that when the odium began to build up the Government began to realise the real feelings of the young and the old who listened to this station and it was then decided the poor old Minister would carry the blame on his own. The Government, although collective responsibility is supposed to obtain, passed full responsibility over to the Minister and let him carry the can.

Now I would be the first who would not tolerate any interference which might endanger life and if the reasons were as valid and as strong as they were alleged to be for the closing of the station, then why let the station go on? If Radio Nova was the culprit in causing a serious accident a couple of weeks ago what has changed in the interim? Why is it not closed this evening? Why was it closed in the first instance? I will tell the House why. It was closed in the first instance because, like all the rest of us, I read about a powerful transmitter which was to be built in Butlins and the general impression was they were going to broadcast into the north of England. I know what happened. As Minister for Posts and Telegraphs I had experience and I know the BBC complained to the Department, or to the Department of Foreign Affairs, or direct to RTE because they had very close links with them. I believe that is what stopped Radio Nova. The same tactics were tried with me when we were putting a transmitter up on the Cooley Mountains. Because the overspill was finding its way into Northern Ireland and into Belfast we had the Home Secretary on here to Foreign Affairs and Dr. Ian Paisley roaring his head off to stop the Fenians getting their message into Northern Ireland. The same thing happened about Letterkenny. Like the first Coalition Government this Government bowed the knee to London and said they would put them out of business. They were put out of business for a week and now the Government are prepared to act in a totally contrary direction. If the service is interfering so much why allow them back into business?

The people want a choice. They are demanding, particularly the young people, that choice and it is up to the Government and to this House to respond to that demand and give them a choice. Let RTE compete with Radio Nova. Give Radio Nova a licence so that they will be part of the total operation. That is what we say. The Government have not the guts to do that. There is an old saying—I am sure it is well known in Galway—that if you do not know where you are going the nanny road will get you there. That is the road the Government are travelling. They do not know where they are going. I am on the road of the 1981 Act designed to supply community and commercial radio giving everyone a free choice, forgetting about the monopolies if they are not doing the job and giving the taxpayers value for their money. Let there be competition and let the people decide. The Government parties used so-called pirate stations to get into office and now they are bending the knee to Maggie once again. The good boys are trying to get into her good books. This is a democracy and the people are entitled to choice. This is a sovereign State. This is the only country in the EEC that breaks the rules. At the moment there is absolute chaos.

Would Deputy Reynolds conclude now?

I will. The same lady on Ulster Television last week said: "I do not like to be stopped when I am in full flight." I do not know who wrote the speech of the Minister of State. I see faces over there that I recognise and, of course, the Minister is always the boss and if he wants a different line taken—

The Deputy should know.

Indeed I do and long may their efforts continue. The alleged complaints are as valid today as they were last week. Yet Radio Nova is allowed to go on transmitting. I had the same kind of situation in relation to complaints about CB Radio. I had a whole list of complaints about interference with the Garda and everyone else. I investigated them all. I did all the tests. The Garda in the areas from which the greatest volume of complaints came were quite happy with CB radio because the operators helped them in finding stolen cars and catching criminals. There was a complaint about interference with the air services. I interviewed the senior civil servant over air traffic control and he said that if some lunatic decided to lie in the grass beside the runway there was nothing I could do about it. Then I asked about the ambulance services. I interviewed a good radio engineer in the private sector because that was the only way I could make an honest decision and I put some of the problems to him and as a result of his advice I decided CB Radio should be licensed. No plane crashed. Nobody died because the ambulance did not come.

And I presume Maggie Thatcher did not complain.

No. When she wanted to instal her transmitter in Enniskillen and Strabane no official from the Department of Posts and Telegraphs went up there to examine the strength of those transmitters. If she wanted to know the penetration and the overspill over what she called her national boundary—something I did not accept and never would—it was now stretching as far as Banagher. For the same reason I was entitled to go from the Cooley Mountains up to Belfast and from the Letterkenny transmitter right into the Foyle Valley. If she decided to put her transmitter up in Enniskillen and Strabane then we would look at it and she had the audacity to ask us to let them come over here and examine the strength of these transmitters. She was very quickly told we were a sovereign country and we would run our own business and she could run hers. But the Government did not tell her that when she told them to close down the Nova transmitter. The Government closed it down and then made a nonsense of the whole thing by letting them open up again. That is the sort of decision making running through this Government. They make a decision one week and they rescind it the next week. It is not decision making. It is indecision making. There is one decision today and another decision tomorrow. I await with interest the publication of the proposed Bill.

During Question Time, Deputy Nealon answered four questions one after the other and he did not disagree with any of the principles of the Bill. If he is serious about solving this problem for all the people who want a choice of listening the Government could have made a few minor amendments, because Governments do not like accepting Bills from the Opposition, and introduce it next week when they would have the full support of the House. They could solve the problem if the will was there to do so.

If the Deputy was serious about solving the problem he would have done something about it.

I want to thank Deputy Reynolds, Deputy Ger Brady, Deputy Liam Fitzgerald and all the Deputies who participated in the debate on this Bill. It has been a worthwhile exercise and we have certainly given a lead to the Government. We are the Government in Opposition and are in a position to place a Bill before the Dáil for debate. We are far ahead of the Government in our approach.

Deputy Donnellan, Deputy Nealon and Deputy Jim Mitchell have given no hope or encouragement to our young people and no indication of where they stand in relation to broadcasting.

What is the Deputy talking about?

On Friday, 20 May 1983, the Minister spoke about "Nealon's network". I call it "Nealon's nonsense" because in an interview with Philip Molloy the Minister gave indications of where he stood and what he would do. He nominated a number of stations involved. Everything in this article is nonsense and the Minister knows that when he brings a Bill before this House it will be roughly in line with our Bill. The Minister of State criticised this Bill last week. He was most unhelpful and unfair in his comments in relation to this legislation. I was accused of carrying on the same tradition as my colleague, Deputy Reynolds, when he introduced a Bill in the House in 1981. I am proud of that and also that Fianna Fáil make no U-turns to suit anyone. We have always been consistent. We have at least achieved one thing: we have made the Government think about broadcasting and the situation with regard to licensing stations throughout the country. The action taken some weeks ago was an insensitive approach to this issue. The Government had the opportunity to bring legislation before this House, yet they decided to close down stations.

The Minister, Deputy Jim Mitchell, gave an interview in the Evening Herald on Friday, 3 June 1983. He gave an indication that there will be no further action taken against the pirate stations until the end of the year. In the Dáil he denied this statement and the NUJ should be very careful when they are interviewing either the Minister or the Minister of State in relation to this issue because last night the Minister denied the contents of this interview. The Minister has egg on his face. He was reprimanded by the Government for the action which he took on the directions of Whitehall via the Department of Foreign Affairs——

I object to what Deputy Leyden is saying because it is untrue and he should withdraw that remark.

The Minister is under direction from the British Government in relation to illegal broadcasting stations in Dublin.

That is a lie.

The Minister admitted in his statement that he received representations from the British Government in relation to those broadcasting stations and that resulted in the seizure of equipment at that stage. When the Minister realises the impact of his actions electorally on the Fine Gael Party and the amount of representations which he will receive he will retract the decision he made.

That should be good for Deputy Leyden's party.

The Minister should not interrupt.

It is very difficult to go into the points made by both Ministers. They stated that the Bill would not allow for the licensing of broadcasters who were in a position to provide equipment. Section 17 (a) clearly states "to establish, maintain and operate broadcasting stations and for that purpose to acquire, install and operate or to arrange for the acquisition, installation and operation of apparatus for broadcasting". I should like the officials who drafted the statement for the Minister to check that again because our Bill clearly allows for licensing of an organisation or a broadcasting station who are in a position to provide the equipment. Furthermore, in relation to section 18 we clearly outlined that we are responsive to the varied interests and concerns of the whole community served by each station. Our Bill is community orientated, but there must be some viability because otherwise stations will not survive. Irrespective of how the Minister paints our Bill, it is likely that when it comes to drafting he will come up with something like it.

I appeal to every Deputy to leave aside party political affiliations and to vote for our Bill. I assure the Government that I will be very helpful on Committee Stage to allow for any amendments they may wish to make. We should get together on this and provide for the Bill to be passed tonight, have the Authority set up before the end of June and have legality in broadcasting. It was fascinating to hear Deputy Seán Treacy making a case for the stations in his area. Naturally, he got support from the local radios in Tipperary and Clonmel. It is also fascinating to know that the Minister of State has met the people from that area and I am delighted he has done so. Has the Minister also met people from Radio Nova, Radio Sunshine and other stations operating in Dublin? Perhaps the Minister will disclose at some stage if he had meetings with those people to discuss the question of broadcasting.

Fianna Fáil have acted in a responsible manner by preparing the first Private Members' Bill to come before this House for many years. It is a great honour for me, as spokesman for Posts and Telegraphs and Communications, to bring forward this Bill in Opposition. Irrespective of what Deputy Nealon has said, we put a lot of work into it and studied it very carefully. We made it more relevant to today and allowed for further provisions to be made. I commend this Bill to the House. I ask for the support of the House, especially that of the Labour Party. Deputies should be allowed to vote in a free manner as they were allowed to do on other legislation some weeks ago. RTE are the finest broadcasting service in the world. They are second to none. The people involved in that station must be commended for their work.

Then what is the reason for the Deputy's Bill?

However, the public want a choice between RTE 1 and 2 and other stations. There are so many varied interests in entertainment, music and listening habits and surely the way to satisfy that demand is to provide independent local community radio stations right around the country. That is what our Bill is about. I ask Fine Gael, Opposition and the Labour Party to support this Bill and we will have this matter sorted out once and for all.

If we are not successful in having this Bill accepted, I ask the Minister as quickly as possible to bring forward a Bill enabling that legislation to go before the House which will be assured of our support if it is something in line with our Bill.

Independent Local Broadcasting Authority Bill, 1983 and amendment in the name of the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs. The amendment proposes to delete certain words and substitute other words.

Question put: "That the words proposed to be deleted stand".
The Dáil divided. Tá, 61; Níl, 75.

  • Ahern, Bertie.
  • Ahern, Michael.
  • Aylward, Liam.
  • Barrett, Michael.
  • Barrett, Sylvester.
  • Brady, Vincent.
  • Brennan, Mattie.
  • Brennan, Paudge.
  • Brennan, Séamus.
  • Browne, John.
  • Burke, Raphael P.
  • Byrne, Hugh.
  • Byrne, Seán.
  • Calleary, Seán.
  • Colley, George.
  • Conaghan, Hugh.
  • Connolly, Ger.
  • Coughlan, Cathal Seán.
  • Cowen, Bernard.
  • Daly, Brendan.
  • Doherty, Seán.
  • Fahey, Francis.
  • Fahey, Jackie.
  • Faulkner, Pádraig.
  • Fitzgerald, Gene.
  • O'Leary, John.
  • Ormonde, Donal.
  • O'Rourke, Mary.
  • Power, Paddy.
  • Reynolds, Albert.
  • Treacy, Noel.
  • Fitzgerald, Liam Joseph.
  • Fitzsimons, Jim.
  • Flynn, Pádraig.
  • Foley, Denis.
  • Gallagher, Denis.
  • Gallagher, Pat Cope.
  • Geoghegan-Quinn, Máire.
  • Harney, Mary.
  • Haughey, Charles J.
  • Hilliard, Colm.
  • Hyland, Liam.
  • Kirk, Séamus.
  • Kitt, Michael.
  • Lemass, Eileen.
  • Leonard, Jimmy.
  • Leyden, Terry.
  • Lyons, Denis.
  • McCarthy, Seán.
  • McEllistrim, Tom.
  • MacSharry, Ray.
  • Molloy, Robert.
  • Morley, P.J.
  • Nolan, M.J.
  • Noonan, Michael J. (Limerick West)
  • Tunney, Jim.
  • Wallace, Dan.
  • Walsh, Seán.
  • Wilson, John P.
  • Woods, Michael.
  • Wyse, Pearse.

Níl

  • Barnes, Monica.
  • Barrett, Seán.
  • Barry, Myra.
  • Barry, Peter.
  • Begley, Michael.
  • Bell, Michael.
  • Boland, John.
  • Bruton, Richard.
  • Burke, Liam.
  • Carey, Donal.
  • Cluskey, Frank.
  • Collins, Edward.
  • Conlon, John F.
  • Connaughton, Paul.
  • Coogan, Fintan.
  • Cooney, Patrick Mark.
  • Cosgrave, Liam T.
  • Cosgrave, Michael Joe.
  • Coveney, Hugh.
  • Creed, Donal.
  • Crotty, Kieran.
  • Crowley, Frank.
  • D'Arcy, Michael.
  • Deasy, Martin Austin.
  • Desmond, Barry.
  • Desmond, Eileen
  • Donnellan, John.
  • Dowling, Dick.
  • Doyle, Avril.
  • Doyle, Joe.
  • Dukes, Alan.
  • Durkan, Bernard J.
  • Enright, Thomas W.
  • Farrelly, John V.
  • Fennell, Nuala.
  • Flaherty, Mary.
  • Glenn, Alice.
  • Gregory-Independent, Tony.
  • Griffin, Brendan.
  • Harte, Patrick D.
  • Hussey, Gemma.
  • Kavanagh, Liam.
  • Keating, Michael.
  • Kenny, Enda.
  • L'Estrange, Gerry.
  • McCartin, Joe.
  • McGahon, Brendan.
  • McGinley, Dinny.
  • Mac Giolla, Tomás.
  • McLoughlin, Frank.
  • Manning, Maurice.
  • Mitchell, Gay.
  • Mitchell, Jim.
  • Molony, David.
  • Moynihan, Michael.
  • Naughten, Liam.
  • Nealon, Ted.
  • Noonan, Michael, (Limerick East).
  • O'Brien, Fergus.
  • O'Brien, Willie.
  • O'Keeffe, Jim.
  • O'Leary, Michael.
  • O'Sullivan, Toddy.
  • O'Toole, Paddy.
  • Owen, Nora.
  • Prendergast, Frank.
  • Ryan, John.
  • Shatter, Alan.
  • Sheehan, Patrick Joseph.
  • Skelly, Liam.
  • Taylor, Mervyn.
  • Taylor-Quinn, Madeline.
  • Timmins, Godfrey.
  • Treacy, Seán.
  • Yates, Ivan.
Tellers: Tá, Deputies B. Ahern and V. Brady; Níl, Deputies Barrett(Dún Laoghaire) and Taylor.
Question declared lost.

The words are deleted. I am now putting the question that the proposed words be there inserted.

Question "That the proposed words be there inserted" put and agreed to.

The Bill is defeated.

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