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Dáil Éireann debate -
Friday, 24 Jun 1983

Vol. 344 No. 2

Estimates 1983. - Vote 21: Office of the Minister for Justice.

Limerick East): I move:

That a sum not exceeding £14,350,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of December, 1983, for the salaries and expenses of the Office of the Minister for Justice, and of certain other services administered by that Office, and of the Public Record Office, and of the Keeper of State Papers and for the purchase of historical documents, etc., and for payment of a grant-in-aid.

With the permission of the Ceann Comhairle, I propose that all the Votes for which I am responsible be taken together. I shall, of course, endeavour to answer questions on any of the Votes.

The total of the Estimates for the Votes for which I am responsible is £276,574,000 made up as follows:—

Vote 21: Office of the Minister for Justice, £14,350,000; Vote 22: Garda Síochána, £205,410,000; Vote 23: Prisons, £43,733,000; Vote 24: Courts, £7,679,000; Vote 25: Land Registry and Registry of Deeds, £5,293,000; Vote 26: Charitable Donations and Bequests, £109,000. This total of £276,574,000 compares with a total provisional outturn for these six Votes of £253,014,000 in 1982, an increase of 9.3 per cent.

I would like to take this opportunity to say a few words concerning the various areas for which I, as Minister for Justice, have responsibility.

First of all, I would like to deal with the Garda. As Deputies will be aware, we availed ourselves of the opportunity of the recent passage of the Criminal Justice (Community Service) Bill to have a wide-ranging debate on crime and related matters. In winding up the debate on 4 May 1983 I made a detailed statement on the general crime situation, including relations between the Garda and the community, Government policy in relation to the force and the various measures being taken by the Garda to deal with criminal activity and drugs offences in particular. To go over the same ground again so soon in the same detail would be repetitious and, accordingly, I propose to confine myself today to some brief remarks on our crime problem.

Unfortunately, we are living in an era when, in common with countries the world over, the incidence of crime has greatly increased. It is quite evident that there is now less respect among a section of our population for the rule of law than formerly. It may well be that the deterioration in the law and order situation is linked with the apparent weakening of the traditional values and beliefs held by the citizens of this country. The social restraints that were part and parcel of life previously are not now so readily accepted.

The losses which the individual victims of crime have to bear and the costs which fall on the general public, particularly as a result of vandalism, are enormous. Fires, damage to cars and destruction of public and private property are the main features of acts of vandalism carried out by a small minority against the community. Apart from the actual losses directly suffered as a result of crime and vandalism, the cost of the various State services involved in combating the criminal is a severe burden on the community, particularly at the present time when the difficulties arising from the economic situation are causing such strain to the Exchequer. Public funds are being drained in this wasteful and destructive way when they are so badly needed for the health and welfare of our people and for the provision of jobs.

Too often it is the weaker sections of our society — the old, the infirm and the very young — who are the victims of crime. Increased crime is said to be a characteristic of social change and increasing urbanisation, but no matter what reasons are advanced there can be no justification for the violence and viciousness being inflicted on society by the criminal and the vandal.

The Garda are doing everything in their power to combat crime, but they need the help of the general public if they are to be successful. It must be remembered that everyone has a role to play in the maintenance of law and order. The Garda have a difficult task to do and I am sure that Members of the House would wish to join me in expressing appreciation of their good work.

I will now go on to deal with the financial provisions of the Garda Vote. The overall provision in the Vote is £205,410,000. The major items included in this figure are as follows:— £158.5 million for salaries and allowances, including overtime; almost £24 million for the pensions of former members and widows of former members of the Garda Síochána; £6.25 million for Garda transport and nearly £6 million for travelling expenses and subsistence allowances. A total of £3.5 million is provided for equipment, including radio, computer and office equipment.

The sum of £14.4 million has been provided in the Garda Vote for overtime, as compared with the provision of £18 million in 1982. Those figures by themselves are, however, misleading. Garda overtime had been escalating rapidly in the early part of 1982 but was curtailed in July last and in the later half of 1982 the level at which overtime expenditure had been running worked out on average at about £860,000 per four-week roster. The allocation for 1983 is more than sufficient to maintain that level of overtime — it is in fact sufficient to provide also a substantial sum for contingencies. When, in addition to that, it is realised that the total numbers in the Garda Síochána have been increased by over 960 since August and will continue to increase during 1983, it will be seen that Garda manpower resources will be significantly higher this year than they were in the second half of 1982.

As already announced, provision has been made in the vote for the recruitment of 700 gardaí in 1983. This is a very high level of recruitment at a time when public funds are scarce but is justified by the fact that measures to deal with the crime situation continue to be an urgent priority. There is also provision for the appointment of 100 extra sergeants this year so as to ensure that the necessary level of guidance and on-the-job training is available to the large number of gardaí who are taking up duty at stations, following completion of their initial training at the Garda Training Centre. Over 200 recruits have already been appointed this year and a further qualifying educational examination was held on 17 February. I am informed by the Civil Service Commission that the interviewing of male candidates has now been completed and that final results will be available very shortly. It is expected that actual appointments from the 1983 competition will commence next month and recruitment will continue throughout the year according as candidates become available from the medical and other preliminary examinations.

The new recruits are being assigned to the areas which in the opinion of the Garda authorities are most in need of a greater Garda presence. In practice this has meant that the majority have been assigned to the Dublin metropolitan area and other cities. Most of the new recruits assigned to city stations have been working on a revised rostering system which is designed to ensure a maximum Garda presence at times when the need for Garda services is greatest.

In addition to increasing the strength of the force steps are also being taken to ensure that the available resources are deployed to best advantage in meeting the policing needs of the community. For example, following a review of Garda deployment to take account of current needs and the current crime situation, the Commissioner has arranged to have the strength of the uniformed branch in the cities augmented as far as practicable. There has already been a general improvement in patrolling arrangements and further improvements are envisaged, according as the additional gardaí now in training and those being recruited at present become available for assignment to stations. I am confident that the increased Garda presence and the measures being taken to ensure that available resources are used to best advantage will bring about an improvement in the crime situation and respond in a positive way to the demands from the community for an improved Garda service and better protection against attacks on their person and their property.

While crime is of particular concern in our urban areas, it unfortunately affects our rural areas too and ways in which the system of rural policing might be improved are being examined. Traditional methods of policing rural areas have served us well in the past — the system whereby a Garda sergeant and a small number of gardaí looked after law and order in their own sub-district and generally made a good job of it. But the nature of crime has changed and its extent has increased — unfortunately, even our quiet rural areas are not immune from the attentions of criminals who, with modern transport at their disposal, can go from area to area committing serious crime.

This changed pattern of crime coming into areas from outside, requires a changed response from the Garda and the fact that they now have an extensive fleet of patrol cars and a system of radio communication has left them in a position to try out new strategies. It is now possible to see whether the gardaí allocated to a number of neighbouring sub-districts can combine in some way to provide an improved Garda service over their combined area and studies to see how best this might be brought about are at present under way in two pilot Garda districts — Claremorris, County Mayo and Thomastown, County Kilkenny.

The pilot schemes in operation in these two areas are being studied carefully to see how they meet the objective set for them, which is, of course, to improve in a very positive way the level of Garda service provided to the communities there. I want to make it very clear, lest there should be any doubts on the matter, that the new rural policing system which is being tried out does not involve the closing of any rural Garda station.

It is essential also to ensure that the Garda have the back-up facilities they require to carry out their duties effectively. These facilities include modern radio communications and computer systems. The Garda have recently been provided with their own computer facilities and adequate funds have been made available this year to allow for expansion of the computer service available to them.

Work is well under way on the installation of a new communications network for the Garda Síochána and a substantial part of this system will be in operation this year. This is a major project costing approximately £10 million and the Government are committed to providing the necessary finance for it. The Garda radio section has been greatly expanded to service the new network and I have very recently approved the holding of a recruitment competition for the appointment of further technicians so as to ensure that work on the installation of the new network proceeds as quickly as possible.

The total net allocation on the Prisons Vote is £43,733,000, a decrease of 1 per cent on the 1982 provisional outturn of £44,139,000.

The main portions of this allocation are devoted to expenditure on salaries, wages and allowances and to capital expenditure on the building programme for new prisons and places of detention — 58 per cent and 26 per cent respectively.

My Department's estimates on the prisons side had to be calculated against the background of the rising numbers being committed to custody and the shortage of prison places. In the cuts we imposed we succeeded in achieving the necessary balance between the need to control public expenditure and the need to provide sufficient funds for the efficient operation of the prison system and for its effective future development.

On 30 May there was a total of 1,564 Prison Service grade staff supervising 1,434 offenders in the prisons and places of detention. This gives a ratio on the day of 1.09 prison officers to each offender. It must be understood, however, that because of the need to provide 24-hour manning for certain posts and because staff numbers include management, clerical and trades staff in the various institutions the actual ratio of staff on duty to offenders at any one time is far less favourable.

Eleven officers were recently recruited to the Prison Service. These officers will be available for assignment to the prisons when they complete the 12-week induction training course which is held at the Prison Service Staff Training Centre, Everton House, Dublin. The recruitment of these officers has reduced the number of fillable vacancies to ten.

As Deputies are aware, there has been increasing pressure on accommodation in the prison system for some time now. I am glad to say that additional accommodation has recently become available.

The new wing in Cork Prison has been occupied, while Loughan House is now available as a centre for male adults. These two developments will help substantially to relieve the pressure on accommodation.

One of the major factors causing pressure on accommodation is the need in present circumstances to devote almost all of the available accommodation at two of the prisons, Portlaoise and Limerick, to cater for subversive prisoners. If these prisoners were not in custody it would be possible to accommodate about 300 non-subversive prisoners in those prisons and, in addition, a reduced number of staff would be required. A substantial Garda and Army commitment is also required at those prisons to help maintain security—which would be unnecessary in changed circumstances. I would like to pay tribute to the Garda and Army for the manner in which they have performed those duties over the past year.

I am happy, however, to say that it has proved possible to relieve the Army of one burden in relation to prisons which they had borne since 1972. I refer, of course, to the need that arose to ask the Army to hold a small number of disruptive prisioners who could not then be held in the civil prisons. A new unit, separate from the main buildings of Mountjoy Prison, has been brought into use and most of the prisoners who were in military custody are now held there along with a group who are also considered to be disruptive or high security risks from Mountjoy itself. I would like to place on record my appreciation of the manner in which the Army authorities dealt with these prisoners while they were in their care and also to compliment the Prison Service trades personnel who worked so well to make the new unit ready for the prisoners.

As the House will be aware, I have already announced that the Government have agreed in principle to the establishment of a committee of inquiry into the prison system. Staff and other interested parties will, of course, have an opportunity of submitting views to the committee in due course. As regards the compostion of the committee. I will be making a submission to the Government on this in due course. In my view the committee should be a high-powered one but I would like to keep it small—say about five members—because I believe it would be more effective that way. It might be necessary to make available to the committee certain expertise in the area of prison administration.

A total of £11.498 million has been made available to the prisons capital programme for 1983. This will enable elements of modernisation of Mountjoy Prison and of development work at Portlaoise and Limerick Prisons to be completed. It will substantially complete development of Cork, Arbour Hill, the Training Unit, Shanganagh Castle and Loughan House. It will also enable a start to be made on the custodial buildings at Wheatfield, County Dublin where site development, perimetering, service buildings and other works have been in progress since 1980.

Deputies will agree that £11.498 million is a significant allocation in the present economic situation and in 1983 and in future years it is my intention to channel as much as possible of the money that can be allocated to the prisons capital programme into providing additional custodial places, in an effort to relieve the present pressure on accommodation in the prisons and places of detention.

The Criminal Justice (Community Service) Bill, 1983, will provide the courts with an alternative sanction which they may impose in cases where they would otherwise impose a custodial sentence. This is important and progressive legislation in that the courts will be given power to order suitable offenders to do work which will be of benefit to the community rather than send them to prison. The provision of facilities in the community for offenders on probation is also being developed. Already several probation hostels, workshops and day centres have been established by my Department's Probation and Welfare Service in association with local voluntary committees. It is my objective to expand the provision of such facilities as much as possible as well as to improve the facilities available for the after-care of prisoners who volunteer for supervision.

In furtherance of this, the provision for grants to voluntary committees who operate these facilities has been increased by 75 per cent over the 1982 outturn. The capital provision for the acquisition of premises for probation and after-care related facilities has been increased by 19 per cent. I believe that expenditure in this area is extremely cost-effective and I would like to take this opportunity of thanking the voluntary committees who operate the various centres and without whose co-operation the progress so far achieved would not have been possible.

I come now to the area of my Department's responsibilities relating to the courts, the overall provision for which is £7,679,000 in 1983—an increase of 10 per cent on the 1982 provision. Broadly outlined these responsibilities range from the preparation and promotion of any necessary legislation governing the establishment, constitution, jurisdictions, and functioning of our courts to ensuring that, as far as practicable, all courts and court offices are enabled to function effectively.

As Deputies will no doubt be aware the major jurisdictional changes provided in the Courts Act, 1981, which were due to come into operation on 12 May, 1982, have only recently become effective following the settlement of the long-running industrial dispute involving staff in the Circuit and District Courts. I am glad that this dispute has been settled as I am very well aware of the inconvenience and hardship occasioned for litigants, particularly in the family law area. At this early stage it is not possible to assess the effects of the jurisdictional changes made but the situation will be closely monitored.

A matter of particular concern to me at present is the large number of High Court jury actions awaiting hearing. Last year the President of the High Court, in an effort to reduce the back-log, arranged special jury sittings of the High Court at Nass and Trim at which the oldest cases in the Dublin list were offered trial. He is making similar arrangements this year.

While measures like this help to contain the problem, elimination of arrears in the High Court as a whole is to a great extent dependent on the provision of additional jury courtrooms at the Four Courts. Plans are now well advanced for the provision of two such extra courtrooms in accommodation which will shortly be freed by moving some High Court Offices out of the Four Courts Building to an office block at Dolphin House, the former Dolphin Hotel in Essex Street. It is hoped that the Office of Public Works will be in a position to commence work on the conversion of this accommodation shortly and that the new courtrooms will be available early in the new year.

In Cork the delay in hearing High Court jury actions has, in recent times, become somewhat more serious than elsewhere and as a result, I understand, the President of the High Court proposes to increase the number of sitting days in Cork by some 50 per cent during the forthcoming legal year, which is due to commence on 3 October next.

While there are some delays in hearing cases at other major centres at which High Court jury actions are held they are not as serious as the delays in Dublin and in Cork and the President has decided not to increase the numbers of sitting days at those venues.

In July of 1982 a new jurisdiction was conferred on the District Court by the Housing (Private Rented Dwellings) Act, 1982. This was, of course, in addition to the new family law jurisdiction and extended civil jurisdiction given to the Court in the 1981 Courts Act. As was to be expected in Dublin, in particular, the new rent jurisdiction has resulted in a very heavy workload and it became necessary to appoint two additional temporary justices to the District Court so that the full time of two justices could be made available to the rent courts.

These courts were first set up in November 1982 in premises in Harcourt Road and they were moved to Dolphin House in February of this year when accommodation became available there.

Up to 31 May 1982 the rent courts in Dublin had made 589 orders under the Act while, outside Dublin a total of 263 orders were made between 26 July 1982, when the Act came into force, and 9 May 1983, the latest date for which figures are available.

A computer has been acquired to help the Metropolitan District Court staff to cope with increasing work volumes and is already printing, issuing and processing most of the summonses for Dublin City. This facility will be gradually extended and will, increasingly, bring about speedier and more effective enforcement of the law in the Dublin District Court.

Regarding the operation of the courts, one of the greatest problems continues to be accommodation. Responsibility for the provision and maintenance of court accommodation, with certain exceptions in the Dublin area, is vested by law in local authorities. This has given rise to particular problems in a number of areas and most Deputies will be familiar with problems of this kind in their own areas. However, there have been improvements in a number of cases. The reinstatement of Waterford Courthouse was completed last autumn and Wicklow County Council expect to go ahead with the provision of a new courthouse in Bray shortly. Several local authorities are considering quite extensive repairs and improvements to a number of court-houses and others are dealing with less extensive works on an ongoing basis. Naturally, progress in this area is affected by the current financial situation.

In Dublin the Four Courts Hotel site which has been acquired by the Office of Public Works will be developed as an office block to accommodate the various court offices at present housed in the Four Courts building, thus freeing further areas there for development as additional courtrooms and ancillary accommodation. While the planning phase has been brought to an advanced stage, it has not yet been possible to proceed to the invitation of tenders for the construction work due to the continuing adverse financial situation but I am hopeful that resources can be provided for this in the coming year.

In the meantime, in order to satisfy the immediate requirements for additional court accommodation on a temporary basis, additional courtrooms have been provided in Dolphin House at Essex Street. Apart from the two rents courts I have mentioned already, this building also houses a new District Court family court and District Court traffic court as well as a Circuit family court. The building became available for occupation early this year and court sittings are currently being held there. Unfortunately, these premises are not, for technical reasons, suitable for adaptation as jury courts and could not be availed of to provide the relief so urgently required by the High Court.

The situation of the Children's Court in Dublin is a matter of some concern. The accommodation available to the court has been unsatisfactory for some years now and the position deteriorated in November 1981 when the Dublin Castle premises were declared unsafe. The court is at present accommodated on a temporary basis in the Morgan Place wing of the Four Courts. The Office of Public Works have explored the suitability of a number of premises as permanent accommodation for the Children's Court without success and they are currently studying the feasibility of building a new Children's Court on a site at Smithfield. I am aware of the urgency of finding a solution to the problem of providing suitable accommodation for the Children's Court and I am urgently exploring possible solutions. This is obviously a matter of great concern and one that needs priority treatment.

The 1983 provision for civil legal aid is £1.305 million. Deputies will be generally aware that, due to the financial constraints affecting all services, that provision, while being an increase on the grant of £1.21 million paid to the board in 1982, did not make any provision for significant expansion of the board's services — at any rate such expansion as would enable the board to open any new law centres in 1983. However, since the beginning of the year, the board have set up additional part-time "clinic" service in Dundalk, Carlow, Kilkenny and Tralee. These are serviced from existing law centres. I understand that the board have tentative plans to open further "clinic" services during the year at Athlone, Clonmel and Ennis.

The 1983 estimates for criminal legal aid include an increase of £0.6 million on the 1982 figure of £1.25 million. There are three main reasons for this increase, firstly, the cost of paying value-added tax, currently at 23 per cent on legal fees payable under the scheme — this is ultimately recouped to the Exchequer — secondly, the cost in 1983 of an increase of 7.5 per cent in solicitors' District Court fees granted in 1982 and thirdly, the increased volume of business in the courts. In the context of the latter, it should be noted that legal aid in criminal cases is now regarded as a constitutional right in certain circumstances.

Deputies will be aware that the Minister for Justice has a special position in relation to the law and its reform, more so perhaps than any other Minister of the Government, since I have responsibility for a fairly wide area of the law. A particular difficulty presents itself, one to which my predecessors have drawn attention on occasions such as this. As the Ceann Comhairle will confirm, it is not in order for a Deputy to advocate legislation in an Estimates debate. Accordingly, even if it were within the rules of this House for me to make a statement in relation to any particular item of legislation for which I have responsibility, it would be inappropriate since Deputies would not have the opportunity to deal with the matter. I will, therefore, say no more on the subject of law reform other than that legislative proposals which I have under consideration will be brought to the notice of the House in the usual way when I am in a position to announce them.

During the Seventies the intake of work in the Land Registry increased at an average annual rate of about 10 per cent. The pattern of increase was maintained in 1980 and accelerated to 18 per cent in 1981. There was a decrease of 7 per cent in 1982 as compared with 1981 but in the first five months of 1983 there was an increase of 3 per cent as compared with the corresponding period in 1982.

The work of the Land Registry may broadly be divided into four main categories, as follows:

(1) Applications for changes in, or additional, registration in respect of property already registered;

(2) Applications for first registration, including the establishment of title acquired by possession;

(3) Applications for land certificates, copies of folios, instruments and maps; and

(4) Administration of the ground rents purchase scheme which came into operation for a five-year period commencing on 1 August 1978 and which is being extended for a further year to 31 July 1984.

There are about 85,000 applications a year in the first category. The position in so far as these are concerned is satisfactory; applications are processed within an average time scale of about two months.

The number of applications in the second category is small at about 5,000 a year. These applications involve detailed and complex examination of title and often protracted correspondence with solicitors, as well as the issue of statutory notices to interested parties which usually gives rise to further correspondence. It is difficult to be precise about average delays but they are unlikely to be less than 12 months. While of their nature these cases cannot usually be completed quickly, the level of delay is not satisfactory. Proposals for a radical reorganisation of the processing of these applications have been prepared for some time but because the Land Registry, in common with the Civil Service generally, is subject to the embargo on the creation of new posts and the filling of vacancies, the proposals cannot be implemented at present. I intend to do all I can to facilitate their implementation. In the meantime, all that can be done by the Land Registry to speed up the processing of the applications under the existing system is being done. Also, because in many cases delays are caused by incompleteness in the submission of applications to the Land Registry, the Incorporated Law Society propose to hold a series of seminars for solicitors, which will be attended by Land Registry officials, with the aim of eliminating or at least reducing the need for time-consuming correspondence.

Land certificates and copies of documents and maps, applications for which total about 125,000 a year, are usually available within less than two weeks — in most cases within a week. Copies of folios with file plans attached are now being issued in response to all applications for copy maps.

A programme of computerisation of the Land Registry folios commenced in December 1982. There are about 1,100,000 existing folios to be computerised and about 40,000 new folios are being opened annually. Present indications are that the programme will take at least ten years to complete. However, the benefits are cumulative and are increasing on a daily basis as the implementation programme progresses. For instance, in the case of a folio which has been computerised, a member of the public may inspect the folio on a visual display unit at a public counter in the registry and may, if he wishes, obtain a copy of the folio within a matter of minutes. It is already clear that the efficiency of the registry is being progressively improved as the computerisation programme develops.

Overall, the position in the Land Registry, with the exception of the relatively small category of first registration applications, is satisfactory and I intend to make every effort to see that it remains so and indeed to effect whatever improvements in the service I can.

A package of reorganisation proposals in the Registry of Deeds has been prepared and is at present under consideration. These proposals include the integration of the staff structures of the Land Registry and the Registry of Deeds and the computerisation of some of the Registry of Deeds records. I hope that it will be possible to proceed with the proposals at an early date.

The fees charged for services in both the Land Registry and Registry of Deeds are set at a level sufficient to enable both offices to be self-supporting. The most recent fees orders have been operative from 1 December 1981 in the case of the Land Registry and 1 February 1983 in the case of the Registry of Deeds.

My other areas of responsibility include the Public Record Office, Criminal Injuries Compensation Tribunal, Censorship of Films and Publications, Aliens' Control and Charitable Donations and Bequests. I do not intend to comment on them now but I shall endeavour to answer any questions that Deputies may wish to ask.

We are witnessing an unprecedented breakdown in law and order. Daily we see robberies, house-breaking, muggings, handbag stealing, car stealing and joyriding and old people being terrorised in their homes. This is an area which must receive a high degree of priority in the allocation of Government funds.

We fully support the Minister in expressing appreciation of the work of the Garda. No country has a finer body of men and women than are available within the Garda, although that is not to say that every member is perfect. We have a heavy responsibility to ensure that this continues to be the case, especially since very large numbers of young people are now joining the Force. The Minister spoke of the 700 extra gardaí to be recruited this year. These 700 recruits are part of the increase of 2,000 to which the Fianna Fáil Government gave a commitment. We believe that these numbers are necessary although we appreciate that this places an added burden on the Exchequer.

When discussing law and order it is difficult to avoid the question of drug taking which is one of the major causes of crime in this city. The heroin problem reached epidemic proportions in the inner city during 1982 and this disastrous situation continues.

I should like to call on the Minister to crack down on drug pushing immediately. This problem was highlighted by the sudden and dramatic increase in hepatitis cases being treated in Jervis Street Hospital and by information coming from the local community in the north inner city area. At the same time, alarming reports of heroin trafficking and addiction have been made by the Garda Drug Squad. From various quarters in recent times we had alarming reports coming forward.

The whole community must now face the fact that whatever the reason for this development we must all join forces to stamp out this evil menace and rid the streets of the drug pushers and distributors. We live on an island and most points of entry can be clearly specified and controlled. For many years we enjoyed the freedom and relative isolation of an island people, but now we must face the unpalatable fact that there are among us Satanic godfathers and people who will co-operate with them in this evil trade which not only is destroying our youth but would seek to use our country as a distribution centre for Europe.

If we had any doubt about the figures in relation to the size of this problem in Dublin, the Medical Social Research Board, in a very valuable survey, have shown beyond all doubt that we have the highest usage of heroin among teenagers in Europe. In Dublin's inner city, the prevalence of heroin abuse among boys aged 15 to 19 years is 12 per cent and among girls of the same age it is 13 per cent. Consequently we know that the figures given by the Garda Drug Squad and others in that area are supported. The alarming statistics are quantified; there is no question about the existence of the problem and its size. A leading author, Anthony Hayden Guest, claimed recently that Dublin is now one of the major heroin capitals of Europe, that it is one of the easiest places to obtain supplies.

Having come upon us in recent years, particularly the heroin aspect, this is not very surprising because as a very open country with an open economy we are very exposed to those people who wish to trade in drugs and to push them through our ports and distribute them through our major cities.

We must be aware that those powerful manipulators and the people who traffic in drugs will seek to corrupt people at any level in our society, be they officials or others. It is difficult for us to accept and recognise, particularly when we think of the implications, that we have reached the level in relation to drug trafficking. We have behind the drugs, people who are quite skilful in corrupting people, be they at an official level or ordinary citizens throughout the State. The experience in Europe or the US should have forewarned us of the dangers and the pervasiveness of this corruption and made us conscious of the dangers that exist. Consequently in terms of protection, control and vigilance and the application of criminal technology we should be prepared to apply the highest levels to this area.

It was for this reason that Fianna Fáil when in office provided for the appointment of a chief superintendent to upgrade the Drug Squad substantially, to ensure the squad would be headed by a highly experienced crime buster, a person with a good deal of anti-criminal experience. That step proved very effective. It increased the volume of drug confiscation and the apprehension of criminals. I was gravely concerned to hear the recent removal of this high ranking police officer from that post and I hope the post will be filled or is being filled by somebody of similar standing, because the importance of that is to have somebody of sufficiently high calibre to apply a high level of crime investigation to an exceptional insidious problem.

The measures which have been taken indicate that it is possible to get results through vigorous action. Investment in combating the drug pushers will pay off and this has been shown by measures already taken. If we commit ourselves and our resources we can get results, and we are getting them.

There are difficulties yet to be faced and further measures are needed quite urgently. Such new measures should include the filling of the post of a principal crime buster at the top level as head of the Drug Squad. We need further men and equipment for the squad. In the package which we set up in August last year we provided extra men. In present circumstances there may be further requirements. The Minister will have our full support in any such action.

As another administrative measure I would be in favour of the introduction of drug-sniffing dogs as an aid to police and customs agents in detecting hidden supplies of illicit drugs. I have had a question down for some time to have this matter discussed in the House and it may come up next week. We should be giving attention to it because I believe the ability of the dogs to sniff out drugs is particularly valuable.

We have to realise we are in this business and we must have all the facilities that we can get. When the police come to carry out their work they need, and they have called for, a strengthening of the powers they have to search premises and persons when they have reason to believe that illicit drugs are concealed. Senior gardaí should be entitled to carry out searches without warrant when there are reasonable grounds to suspect that drugs may be concealed. One is naturally hesitant to accept or authorise such measures but it would be very valuable and indeed necessary in the war on illicit drugs.

We have seen instances where, when the Garda, having done their work and having brought people to court, the conditions of bail can result in people absconding. Therefore, the conditions of bail should be reviewed to ensure that drug pushers and distributors could not have the opportunity to abscond and avoid the wrath of the courts who, under existing law, can impose sentences of up to 14 years. The Misuse of Drugs Act, 1977, provided for, and looked far enough forward because the problem was not of that nature at that time, sentences of up to 14 years. Therefore, the Garda having done their work, we must ensure that their work cannot be too readily frustrated.

The next question which could be considered in this area is the confiscation of the property of drug distributors as a warning to them that we will deal very severely with the drug problem—other than the family home as defined in the Family Home Protection Act. While the possible sentences in cases of serious drug trafficking are very substantial—up to 14 years—the Minister should consider a mandatory minimum sentence of three years for drug pushing. We should also consider making provision in law for jury verdicts by a majority decision of not less than ten jurors in criminal cases, particularly where drugs are involved. Alter-natively we could consider amending the Offences Against the State Act by making drug pushing a scheduled offence.

One of the areas of administration which would offer considerable reward to the Garda and the authorities generally would be to provide tighter security against drugs penetration through the harbours, the airports and the border posts by extending the powers given to the Garda under the Misuse of Drugs Act to include customs agents. This would increase the manpower available at the point of entry to detect and apprehend those who are trafficking in drugs. The drugs have to come in somewhere. The opportunities are there for them to come in. The customs officials co-operate very well with the Garda and if their powers were increased, this would greatly increase the effectiveness of the controls at that end.

Another area in which there is cooperation between the Garda and the customs people is in the drugs unit in the customs service. This could do with an improvement in terms of their expert specialised staff of some three to five persons. The introduction of drug sniffing dogs would increase the efficiency of detection especially in the parcel post. It is difficult for an individual to go into a large parcel post area and find drugs. From experience elsewhere we know that one of these dogs can clear a parcel post area in an hour or thereabouts. A fleet of men would take a long time to clear an area like that. I understand a considerable number of these drugs are coming in through the parcel post. It would help the police in their work if we could seal off the points of entry as effectively as possible.

There is no time left to talk about the criminal aspect of the drug trade. We know enough to take urgent and determined action. The Minister for Justice should act without delay to deal swiftly with drug traffickers. In so doing he will have the full support of this side of the House. It has been a matter of scandal in Dublin in recent times that a family who seem to be known by everybody have been at the heart of drug trafficking and organised crime for some time. We have to ask ourselves how such a situation could last for any length of time and why our administrative and legislative measures cannot deal with that problem. In so far as we can identify weaknesses we must be very vigilant in closing the loopholes and gaps and making sure that this situation does not continue.

We have been witnessing unprecedented difficulties on the question of law and order. As a community we need to have greater security in our homes. We must provide security for our homes. As an example, having experienced extensive and serious bank robberies, on the advice of the Garda the banks looked to the security of their own premises and their own operations. They tightened up their security. We will have to do the same for our homes and particularly for the old folk. I welcome the home watch system which has been established in the Dublin north inner city. They are experimenting with this system and the Garda are giving them every assistance and support. There is an onus on the community to tighten our own security. This will complement the work being done by the Garda.

We must give time and effort to the early detection of criminals. Through the increase in numbers to which the Minister has referred, a process which he is continuing, we have more police on the beat. We must be concerned to see that they are deployed so that the maximum benefit can be obtained on the beat and on the ground in the community. This means removing administrative difficulties which prevent the Garda from being in touch with the people. Last year we saw the setting up of vigilante groups in certain areas. If we face up to the situation we can turn them into vigilance in the community. We can establish good community relations with the Garda if they spend time with the people and ensure that there are good communications, and if people feel they are protected and that protection will be made available quickly.

In a case in which I was involved in the small hours of the morning, an extremely frightening and difficult situation, the Garda were excellent. They provided the necessary back-up and the follow-on to the first disturbances and difficulties. They negotiated with the people on the ground who realised that support was there if they co-ordinated their own efforts. In the short term that worked out quite happily. Unfortunately the level of disorder is so great and recurs so frequently that much greater input is required to stabilise the situation completely. We will have to give a good deal of extra attention to the whole area of community relations, community police and committees to deal with crime and disorder on the ground.

We must be careful to review the laws passed in this House to ensure that they operate to support the police in their work and to punish the criminals, and that they do not prevent the police from acting efficiently and effectively in an area in which the criminal has become increasingly sophisticated and clever in his or her operations. The whole question of enforcing the law has been brought into a certain amount of disrepute in recent times. It must be seen clearly that the sentences fit the crime. This is a doubled-edged sword.

Too many young people are being thrown into the whole punitive system far too soon. This is due in part to social circumstances and due also to the fact that so many of them have no hope of employment and are standing about with nothing to do. They are drawn into crime at a very low level. We must get those people away from that type of practice as quickly as possible. Here the Minister's probation services are particularly important. In a recent survey in the Coolock area, 27 per cent of the total labour force were unemployed. Obviously, vast numbers of young people are without hope and employment. This must be tackled. Of those apprehended for different crimes, 90 per cent were found to be unemployed.

(Limerick East): I should be obliged if the Deputy would provide the source of those statistics.

Those figures are from a survey published in the Coolock area. I can supply the Minister with a copy.

(Limerick East): I am not making a point of order; I am just looking for the source.

I do not want to mention specific areas in Dublin, just as I would not mention them in Limerick. The Medico-Social Research Board survey, with which I am sure the Minister is quite familiar, shows that too many people get into bad company. In relation to drugs, 68 per cent of the first offers came from friends, so young people must be very careful about the kind of company they keep. Young people who are unemployed are susceptible to drug abuse. We must take that into consideration and realise the effects of these circumstances. Perhaps in so doing we will structure our justice in a way which will enable us to get many of these young people out of the system. The Criminal Justice (Community Service) Bill is very important in this area. I am concerned at the suggestion that it will be used for the more serious crimes and I hope that those who are convicted of minor offences will either be given probation under supervision or community work.

There has been a considerable amount of public disquiet about the whole question of sentencing. There have been various reports of sentences passed and disquiet about the variation of those sentences. On that basis there has been a tendency to undermine the courts as one of the key institutions of the State and that is something we must be very careful about. On the other hand, the Judiciary should put their house in order by achieving greater uniformity of sentencing. I hope they will soon address themselves to this question. I full appreciate their difficulties but I also appreciate the public misconceptions which arise.

In that regard I have often noticed that the case as stated in the media did not contain the reasons why the judge gave his decision and, on further examination of the case, it proved to be a wise one. For this reason there are two measures which could be helpful in this regard. There should be greater consultation regarding sentencing under the aegis of the Presidents of the High Court, Circuit Court and District Court and I hope the Judiciary will do that in response to the obvious need for it. Members of the Judiciary could also help by giving fuller explanations of their decisions where this is possible. The courts are under pressure because of the volume of business and the problem of law and order, but the public must be able to understand why certain decisions are given.

One case this year, in which a young man was beaten to death by a number of youths in Fairview Park, caused widespread public disquiet because of the apparently ridiculous suspended sentences which were imposed on the criminals who killed this young man, who was a totally innocent citizen going about his lawful business. There was a method available to the DPP of reassuring the public in their concern about the administration of justice in this case. It was open to the DPP to appeal this case to a court of appeal and to have the decision of the Central Criminal Court examined, reviewed and, if necessary, altered. The DPP has exercised this right of appeal in other cases; and if ever there was a case of exercising that right of appeal the Fairview case is such a one. The DPP has been diligent in pursuing every avenue of appeal in other recent cases which received much publicity because of their suggested political profile. That he did not appeal the decision of the court in the Fairview case and thereby permit the law and justice to take their full course must appear to many people as a serious error of judgment which has resulted in an undermining of public confidence in the courts, because the system was not fully utilised. The reaction of Dáil Éireann to this matter, which was discussed in an unprecedented debate here, should have indicated to the DPP the widespread and genuine concern regarding this issue. A number of people have brought this to my attention since then. They are still wondering if anything will be done about that situation. Of course, the time for appeal has expired.

The Chair has some doubts about the position of the DPP. He is an independent officer and the Minister has no control over him. Therefore, it is doubtful whether it arises properly on the Estimate.

I presume it comes within the overall ambit of the Department of Justice and the administration of justice. It was in relation to the confidence in the administration of justice that I made the point, but I have no more to say about it at this stage.

I wish to refer to the Prison and Probation Services. The prison system at present is creaking at its seams. The Minister told us earlier that 1,200 prisoners were shed — to use the technical term — from the system in 1982. It is also well known that an extensive holiday system operates which in many circumstances is good, but where these holidays have to be given because of the non-availability of space to hold people who have been convicted and are due to serve a sentence it is most undesirable. It is clear from figures and facts available that this is the case. Cases have been publicised where there was no room for some criminals because the prison was full. I know the Minister will do everything in his power to ensure that that does not happen but there have been cases where people were told to come back in a fortnight and that there would be room for them then. Obviously, the whole prison system is under tremendous pressure at present. In this respect the Government's commitment in this area is questionable.

The Minister referred to the Estimate for the prison building programme. In the first instance he talked about the net total allocation for prisons which is a decrease of 1 per cent on the 1982 provisional outturn for the current operation of the prisons. Here I wish him well. He says he believes that the figures he has reached here will be sufficient to provide for the efficient operation of the prison system and for its effective future development. I hope that what he says in that respect is true because we all know that in all areas there is scope for efficiency and for saving. One must be concerned about that aspect.

Much more important at present is the question of the capital building programme. Here the Minister was quite forthright when he said that a total of £11.498 million has been made available for the prison capital programme for 1983. This is approximately £6 million less than was provided under the Fianna Fáil Estimate for that in this year. At Estimate time when we were in Government just before the end of last year this question, as with other cutbacks necessary in other areas, was debated and taken very seriously. Because of the seriousness of the position of the whole prison system and the pressure under which it was operating, the higher amount was provided by Fianna Fáil.

I regret that at this stage the present Government have not the same sense of immediate commitment to this. I appreciate that the Minister said that he hoped that Deputies would agree that £11.498 million is a significant allocation in the present economic situation. Of course it is, but it does not recognise the reality of the present position where the Minister has not space to put people. Therefore, the prison capital programme should not be delayed and the Minister should not allow the Minister for Finance to cut him back in that capital area because this would be saying, "Live, horse, and you will get grass".

Some prisons are, of course, the result of earlier work coming to fruition now, but we should not at this stage put back the day when we will have an adequate supply of spaces in the prisons to deal with those who must be contained there. On the capital side I am very concerned about the slowdown in the prison capital programme. Criminals must be made to realise quite clearly that they will pay the price for their crimes and that we will provide the accommodation to ensure that those who should go to prison will go to prison. Indeed, I recommend that the Minister consider even requisitioning temporary facilities if necessary to ensure that adequate resources are there for prisoners.

In relation to the Probation Service, I am glad that the Minister is providing adequate funds in this area. It is an important one, and the work done by the service is very valuable. Because they succeed so often we do not see more problems arising in this area and consequently perhaps we do not know enough about it. Having had a fair amount of personal contact with the Probation Service in its operation largely arising from problems relating to my constituency, I can only say that I have the highest regard for the work they are doing and the importance of it in the overall system. I am pleased that the Minister is making some extra funds available and also that the grants for the voluntary committees are being increased by 75 per cent over the 1982 outturn. I encourage the Minister to place every resource he can in this area, particularly because of our present circumstances.

The Minister has said that it is not appropriate to dwell on legislation. There is, of course, the question of the Criminal Justice Bill which he said he hopes to circulate shortly. We look forward to that and certainly we will give him every support in dealing with it when it comes to the House.

In relation to the administration of justice generally, it must be conceded that there are intolerable delays in the administrative system at present. The Minister has indicated some areas in which he is providing funds and resources to speed up and modernise the approach. In relation to the administration of the courts there should be more on-the-spot fines to save Garda time and State expense. Civil actions can take from six to nine years to get to court, for instance, traffic accident cases. This kind of delay is not acceptable. It causes untold suffering for citizens, and people who are injured and innocent parties can be waiting for a very long time. That matter must be tackled fairly quickly. One of the first objectives in reforming the operation of the courts should be the saving of the valuable time of the Garda to enable them to be on the beat. We are all agreed that the more they can identify with communities and be on the beat in that respect the better for law and order and community relations generally. One way to achieve this is to introduce more on-the-spot fines for minor traffic offences, tax discs which might be missing from cars, tyres, speeding charges, lights out of order, bicycles lamps not lit, road traffic regulations and so on. These matters are taking up much of the administrative time of the Garda and the courts. Already, of course, parking offences and not displaying tax discs are fined on an on-the-spot basis and it would seem from experience there that there is considerable scope, particularly in relation to minor traffic offences, to ease the burden on the courts. Very often large numbers of gardaí are involved in the courts and this takes them away from their duty on the ground. Consequently this area of administration should be looked at very critically.

The Minister has mentioned the whole area of family law reform. Obviously this is in urgent need of being tackled. It is a complex and difficult area. Only a very foolish person would underestimate the complexity of the social and human problems involved here because the whole social fabric of our society is at stake. In this respect we are happy to say that we ourselves have set up a committee to look into the whole question of the protection of marriage and family life and to examine the problems which follow the breakdown of marriages and to report on these. We have agreement with the Government on an all-party committee in this area. I hope it will be set up before the Summer Recess. I do not think there is any obstacle to that happening. Such a committee could tackle many of the problems that exist, particularly in regard to marriage breakdown, separations, nullity, children, maintenance and succession. It could also deal with the educational process to try to prevent such breakdowns.

The whole area of the administration of justice is one on which there can be general agreement. The question of crime, lawlessness and vandalism must be tackled urgently and I believe there is a substantial area of agreement in regard to this. Consequently, we look forward to the committee we have proposed being established. We have suggested that a select committee of the Dáil be established to deal with the question of crime, lawlessness and vandalism. When considering the reform of the Dáil that should have been one of the first committees to have been established. It should also cover the administration of justice, the implementation of criminal law and look at existing legislation. Such a committee could deal with the personal safety and security of our citizens in their homes, on the streets and in public places. We look forward to a response from the Government in regard to that committee which could have a major bearing on the work done by the Department of Justice.

The Government pledged on coming to power that they would carry out a full scale judicial inquiry into allegations of political interference with the Garda. In fact, the Fine Gael-Labour Programme for Government stated that a judicial inquiry would be established into allegations of political interference with Garda with terms of reference covering the previous three years and a remit to recommend any necessary action to ensure that such interference cannot take place in the future. That reflected what was contained in the Fine Gael election priorities issued last November. Fine Gael said they would establish a Garda Authority and initiate a judicial inquiry to investigate all allegations of political interference with the Garda during recent years.

It has now become apparent that there is some reticence about fulfilling that pledge and I should like to hear from the Minister on that matter. In the meantime the Government have used all the means at their command, including areas that are meant to be strictly politically impartial, to pursue a political campaign against Fianna Fáil in spite of the fact that one case after another is dismissed by the courts. I am concerned that the campaign has been pursued primarily at the expense of members of the Garda Síochána, one of whom had to spend some months with a cloud over his character because of fabricated rumours, allegations and innuendoes of a political nature. The Minister should stop using the Garda Síochána for these party political purposes. He should tell the House if it is intended to proceed with the judicial inquiry.

Two Bills were passed by the House recently concerning the pro-life amendment and we are awaiting the implementation of their provisions. The Government have cynically failed to set a date for the holding of the referendum. There were never any legal reasons for delaying the fixing of the date, as the Minister and the Government are aware. The Taoiseach, in reply to a question from the Leader of the Opposition, acknowledged that the courts on a previous occasion had held that they did not have any function in reviewing a Bill going through the legislative process. That was borne out by a recent High Court decision on the attempt to prevent a date being fixed for the holding of the referendum. The real point is that the Minister who is responsible for the Bill with the Government has engaged in political manoeuvring to gain party political advantage and in an attempt to minimise the consequences of their breach of trust with the electorate. The Government should proceed urgently with this matter and set a date for the referendum.

I must comment on the fact that earlier this year use was made of two civil servants in order to further the Government's propaganda. There was a vague statement issued by the GIS expressing some views of the DPP on a Bill which was being debated in the Dáil. The DPP is by statute, as the Ceann Comhairle has so often said, an independent civil servant solely concerned with the carrying out of statutory functions independent of the Government of the day. He should not have been dragged into the political arena, nor should he have permitted this to occur. The DPP has since denied that he issued the statement in question through the GIS but he admitted to a grave error of judgment when he accepted that he had allowed the Government to make use of the contents of a very vague document.

I should like to clarify the position about the DPP again. I do not think he is a civil servant but an independent statutory officer.

I am commenting on the fact that that was not recognised in actions taken by the Government and that is why I am making the comment.

The Chair is concerned only to get it properly on the record.

(Limerick East): Is this in order in an Estimates debate because the DPP does not come under the ambit of my Department? He is an independent officer.

I would be very happy if the Minister would leave it that way or ask the Government to leave it that way.

(Limerick East): On a point of order, that is an outrageous innuendo and I urge the Chair to get the Deputy to withdraw it.

I cannot withdraw it because it is a factual situation to which I referred earlier. I will refer to it again because I am gravely disturbed at such an occurrence. The Minister made cynical use of the Governor of Portlaoise prison to justify decisions for which he is politically responsible. He placed the Governor in an invidious position as was seen later. Civil servants are there to service the State and if policy decisions or recommendations are made by public servants it is solely a matter for the Minister concerned, or the Government, to decide whether they should be implemented or acted upon. Therefore, it is solely the responsibility of the Minister or the Government to justify decisions taken and accept the consequences of such decisions. When individual civil servants are brought into the political arena and used to shield politicians or as propaganda props then the integrity of the public service is at serious risk of being undermined.

We are dealing with an extensive area but because of time constraints we cannot deal with them all. I should like to wish the Minister every success in his onerous task and I assure him that he will have our support in relation to the question of restoring law and order as fully as possible. Those who serve us in this area command our full respect and support whether they are the Garda, probation officers or civil servants. The Minister referred to the support which the Garda receive from the Army and I should like to support him in that statement. They give us an excellent service and deserve our highest commendation. It was important that the Minister make that statement and also important that I, as Opposition spokesman, should make our position clear. I have pleasure in supporting the Estimate.

It is important that the House debates this area of justice and law and order which is of great concern to the communities outside. If you call a meeting to discuss vandalism and crime in any area of Dublin and most urban areas throughout the country you will get a packed house. Many people are trying to find solutions to, and discover, the causes of crime. This concerns very many people dealing with education, youth, community residents' associations, tenants' associations and many others. There have been numerous meetings and they have come up with many suggestions. They are working on a number of practical suggestions. If the House is to have any relevance to the public outside it is vital that we endeavour to come up with some practical answers to the problems affecting society.

The Minister for Justice has a greater responsibility than ever before for the protection of society. In the debate on the Estimates for Justice we should give some idea that, first of all, we are identifying the causes of the increase in vandalism and crime and, secondly, that we are beginning to come up with some solutions that will be of some practical benefit. The causes have been referred to frequently by many people but I do not believe that any real study has been made of the causes for the rapid increase in crime over the last few years. Much of the crime, particularly juvenile crime, has its origins in environmental and social factors. One of the things which must be tackled is a sustained programme of social reconstruction which can reduce the incidence of crime and the number of people likely to engage in it. It is very hypocritical for a Government to say they are tackling the issue of crime and vandalism when at the same time they are cutting back——

Will the Deputy please give way to allow the Minister for Transport to make a statement?

Debate adjourned.
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