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Dáil Éireann debate -
Friday, 1 Jul 1983

Vol. 344 No. 6

Estimates, 1983. - Vote 18: Office of the Minister for the Public Service.

I move:

That a sum not exceeding £6,651,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on 31st day of December 1983 for the salaries and expenses of the Office of the Minister for the Public Service and for the payment of a grant-in-aid.

I propose to discuss Vote 19 — Civil Service Commission; Vote 20 — Superannuation and Retired Allowances; and Vote 50 — Increases in Remuneration and Pensions, along with this Vote and I will move these Votes after the debate.

Before dealing with the financial details I would like to turn to the subject of public service reform. Deputies will be aware of the Government's deep commitment to reform. It is my intention to pursue vigorously our policy objectives in this area and I would like to outline to the House some of the practical measures that we intend to take to achieve real public service reform.

Firstly, however, I want to scotch the impression that we are merely interested in reform for reform's sake. We are interested in, and committed to, the principle of reform because we believe it to be necessary if this country is to realistically come to grips with the difficult and intractable problems facing us today.

We have had enough pious rhetoric about reform. I now want to see certain changes made, and made quickly. Much has been written and said about the need for structural reform, for delegation and for the separation of the role of policy formulation from that of policy execution. In essence the basic objectives of these highly desirable aims are increased efficiency and effectiveness in the civil service and in the wider public service.

It goes without saying that there is a need for change in the organisation and work practices of the public service. For too long the modus operandi has been one based on the traditional approach — if the system works, why change it? But too many existing procedures are either antiquated or outmoded and do not allow for the speedy and efficient resolution of our deep-rooted financial and other problems or, perhaps more importantly, for the formulation of policies which are realistically designed for the future development and welfare of the country.

The speedy implementation of policy decisions hinges on efficient and effective structures. I intend to continue with the work that has been going on to improve the central policy areas of Departments and to assign responsibility for executive action to accountable units. Lest I might be accused of not practising what I preach, I intend to apply, develop and refine the new management systems in my own Department for a start.

Existing concepts of accountability in the public service need urgent examination and review. Accountable management must involve some measure of delegation of responsibility. While the final responsibility will always rest with the Minister, it is a nonsense to imagine that the Minister can know of every one of the many administrative actions that take place in his or her Department each day.

Power must therefore be delegated and bureaucracy eliminated. The concept of the Minister as the corporation sole must be ended. Individual public servants must carry responsibility for their official actions and I believe that the vast majority of public servants will welcome a greater, and indeed a clearer definition of their responsibilities.

With the establishment of relevant structures, more appropriate to our times, Ministers can devote more of their time and ability to policy matters and executive affairs. Within such structures there will be maximum delegation of responsibility to individual civil servants, on their own personal responsibility, for the implementation of Government policy.

Having outlined my objectives in relation to accountable management, and accepting that public servants do things in the course of their duties which the Minister cannot possibly be expected to know about, we inevitably come to the conclusion that the procedures for accountability to the Oireachtas, acting on behalf of the public, must be strengthened.

Financial constraints have prevented successive Governments from appointing an Ombudsman, but I hope that such an appointment can be made during the lifetime of this Dáil.

While pursuing justice and equity in administration we must also look to developments in management skills and technology in order to provide value for money. While continuing to direct the efforts of my Department into the traditional management services and operational research, I take a particular interest in the increasing possibilities for better administration offered by the development of computers and information processing.

I have under consideration, and I hope to bring into effect this year, proposals for a shift of resources both in people and equipment into increased computerisation. This will involve considerable administrative reorganisation but should yield substantial benefits in performance and in economy. In any event, development in the area of automatic data processing will be forced upon any administration which regards itself as part of the developed world.

People generally and not only public servants will have to have, as part of their general equipment, an increasing familiarity with computers. For those in midcareer in the public service, it is important that these new technological aids to management be understood and mastered. I have recently announced that the Civil Service Training Centre will provide for the courses and training in computerisation necessary in the future.

Through the administrative research programme of the Department a study of the management development requirements of serving staff for computerisation is being undertaken by the Institute of Public Administration. The interim results are promising.

One result of computerisation will be to provide a more cost-effective public service. There is general agreement that the cost of the public service is now the major factor in public expenditure and taxation. In the light of the phenomenal increase in public service numbers between 1977 and 1981 there can be no dispute about the need to reduce numbers from the peak of over 300,000 reached in the latter year. The measure taken in July and December 1981 to restrict and reverse the growth in numbers were continued by the Estimates provisions which were published before the Government took office late last year. The restrictions have been not only endorsed therefore but promoted by parties on both sides of the House and, as a result, actual civil service numbers have fallen for the first time in more than a generation.

There has been some adverse comment about the fall in numbers. However, I would like to state a few pertinent facts. The reduction is only a fraction of the rise which took place between 1977 and 1981. No civil servant has been made redundant. We have maintained some recruitment. Viewed against the situation in the private sector, public servants are surviving the recession very well indeed.

While I consider the present restrictions under the recruitment embargo to be a crude instrument to achieve reduced numbers they are by no means as crude as the alternative of redundancy. I hope, generally, to substitute more selective measures which are likely to involve redeployment of staffs within Departments and between Departments. If and when I do so there may be protests about the inconvenience caused by redeployment. I will merely say again that such inconvenience cannot compare with the hardship and misery of unemployment.

My ultimate objective is a more efficient, a more effective public service. I want to see an improvement in the quality of the service provided for the public. I am firmly of the opinion that like any large organisation the reputation of the civil service rests largely on its direct contact with the citizen, whether that contact is at an employment exchange, a tax office or at the reception desk of one of our Departments of State.

I have already said that I want to see more open, friendly and less inhibiting surroundings in these public offices where, after all, the citizen comes either for his or her entitlement or for information as to a particular problem or complaint. The impersonal nature of some of our public offices only furthers the sense of unease and frustration that people have who, by force of circumstances, attend at such offices.

All citizens are entitled to efficiency and courtesy in their dealings with the public service but, for the more unfortunate in the community, it is doubly important that their dignity should not be affronted in such dealings. I have, therefore, assigned to a section of my Department special responsibility for the improvement in public office facilities, and increased training for staff in dealing with the public.

I have also declared war on the "hatch" system which is particularly irritating to the public. I have begun the process too whereby many of our existing official forms will be either redesigned, using simple, ordinary everyday language, or else abolished. There is a myriad of these forms throughout the public service which many people have great difficulty in understanding and which contribute in no small way to the overall negative attitude that people now have to our bureaucracy. Indeed I sometimes think, when I read some of the gobbledegook in these forms, that if the people who design and write such forms had to fill them in themselves the forms would be considerably easier to understand.

Recently I wrote to all Members of the Oireachtas asking them to indicate to me the type of forms they come across in their constituency duties which they find particularly helpful or particularly difficult. I hope the practical experience of Members can be used to bring about a simplification of official forms.

I consider these steps small, though by no means unimportant ones. It is through practical changes like these that not only will a better service be given to the public but the public's perception of that service will change, hopefully for the better. If as a result of the changes the interface — to use a jargon word — between the public service and the public in general can be made pleasant and human, I feel that I will have made a major contribution to public service reform.

Of course we must always bear in mind that people are the essence of any organisation's effectiveness and that they are an increasingly expensive, complicated and sophisticated resource. The best structures in the world are of limited value unless they are filled by the best people available. It is essential, therefore, to ensure that the right people are in the right jobs — people with the capacity, skills, competence and experience to manage large resources of staff and money and to provide expert, reliable and realistic advice to Governments, individual Ministers and managements in Departments.

In general I am satisfied that present recruitment procedures, through the Civil Service Commission, are securing for the service an adequate share of the talent leaving our schools and third-level educational institutions. I believe strongly, however, that there should be open competition to talent for certain top civil service jobs. The system that ensures automatic succession, based mainly on the principle of seniority, is no longer tenable. In short, I believe firmly in the concept of meritocracy in the civil service.

The circumstances in which the present system of promotion evolved have changed dramatically and the demands of a new technological age are now more insistent than ever before. This year, for example, a new interdepartmental scheme of promotion for some assistant principal posts was introduced. This is a significant step in the direction of widening the field from which such promotees have traditionally been selected. It will also be a means of further encouraging promotion on merit, and of increasing mobility of staff between Departments. I hope it will be possible in the near future to have arrangements for more open promotion to higher grades than assistant principal and likewise to lower the barriers to promotional mobility at such levels between the administrative, professional and technical grades.

I would like to say quite bluntly that the criteria by which officers are selected for promotion within Departments is a matter of concern to me and to my Department, to say nothing of the concern expressed by staff interests who have stressed the lack of consistency, as they see it, in internal selection practices. While in no way seeking to impose a rigid uniformity I am aiming at a codification, and clarification, of promotion procedures. Draft guidelines for a code of good practice have been prepared by an interdepartmental committee and when they have been duly considered I strongly hope that they will find acceptance among departmental managements generally.

Effective promotion procedures, and indeed any system of accountable management, need to be accompanied by staff appraisal or assessment. An appraisal scheme, embracing executive grades, is now being implemented in Departments and it is my intention that similar schemes should be introduced for higher grades as soon as possible. There is a scheme of staff exchanges in operation for a number of years. I believe that there ought to be greater mobility between the private and the public sectors. In other words, I would like to see employees being swopped for a time between these two sectors. A substantial amount of the criticism of work practices in the civil service emanate from the private sector. The experiments that have taken place in interchanges of staff have been extremely successful and have mitigated somewhat the more raucous criticisms of both the personnel and the work practices in the service.

However, there has been disappointingly few experiments in staff exchanges. Indeed, these experiments have taken place mainly in my own Department. I believe that the private sector could do significantly more to ensure greater cross-fertilisation of ideas and work practices by showing a greater willingness to participate more than it has done to date in this experiment.

In recent times my Department have prepared a comprehensive staff development plan for their employees and other Departments have been encouraged to do the same. Such plans need to cover: the placement, as far as possible, of staff in those jobs, within their grades, which best suit their talents; on-the-job training; formal training; the granting of facilities to staff to secure higher educational qualifications relevant to official needs and fresh and challenging work experiences.

While on-the-job training is the responsibility of line managers or supervisors, all Departments now have the full-time assistance of specially selected training officers. The training officers are in turn helped, where necessary, by my Department to acquire their particular skills. I cannot emphasise enough how important it is that Departments provide good on-the-job training for their staffs. On such training will depend for many years to come the ability and commitment which officers bring to carrying out their everyday tasks.

Formal training for more senior staffs is mainly provided at the Civil Service Training Centre in my Department and also by the Institute of Public Administration. Departmental training officers arrange formal training for junior staff. My Department are currently able to meet all demands by other Departments for training courses, as is the Institute of Public Administration, but in a way I would prefer to see a situation where there were waiting lists for trainees, such is the importance I attach to this activity.

It is understandable that with present staffing restrictions some managers find it hard to release staff for training.

However it is regrettable that many senior officers are basically not as committed to training, either for themselves or their staffs, as would be desirable.

My Department are constantly trying to bring about a change in such attitudes. I hope that, as more managers attend training courses, especially those designed to improve management competence, they will become increasingly more convinced of the need to release their own staff on similar training courses.

For several years past staff have been encouraged to acquire higher qualifications such as university degrees. It is important that the qualifications sought should be relevant to the needs of either the employing Department or of the service generally.

Currently the present facilities offered for such qualifications are being reviewed, in conjunction with the staff associations, to ensure the maximum advantage consistent with economy from them.

It is vital to have a well motivated staff with the highest possible job satisfaction and commitment. This year saw the publication of a report commissioned by the Institute of Public Administration on the factors affecting the motivation of the civil service executive grades. The report made many recommendations, all of which are worth careful consideration and some of which I have already mentioned, such as good placement and planned staff exchanges. My Department are actively following up all the recommendations of this report.

I turn now to some of the financial details relating to my Estimates. The Estimate for the Office of the Minister for the Public Service is £6.651 million, involving a net increase of £455.000 on the outturn for 1982. This amount is required to cover the day-to-day running expenses of my Department of which pay for staff amounts to £5.046 million or 76 per cent of the total.

Among remaining items of expenditure the largest amount represents the expenses of leasing, renting and maintaining computer facilities at the Central Data Processing Services Unit.

There is a provision of £990,000 for the payment of a grant-in-aid to the Institute of Public Administration. This grant-in-aid is towards the general expenses of the institute and includes the corporate subscriptions on behalf of Government Departments. As Deputies will be aware, the institute plays a very important role in training and educating public servants, in promoting and carrying out administrative reseach, and in publishing muchneeded source material in public administration.

I would like to put on record my appreciation of the co-operation which my Department receive from the institute.

Receipts on this Vote are expected to realise £1.356 million during the year and arise mainly from charges made for computer work carried out for bodies other than Government Departments.

The second Vote is Vote 19 — the Civil Service Commission. The cost of running both the Civil Service Commission and the Local Appointments Commission is estimated at £1.007 million. This amount is sought to cover the cost of competitions conducted by them, the payments of salaries, wages and allowances of their staff and various other expenses. The total cost is in fact £2.747 million but revenue received will reduce this by £1.740 million to £1.007 million.

The gross cost of the commission has risen in recent years because of the vast increase in the number of applicants and because of increased costs generally.

The decision to reintroduce a reasonable scale of fees for competitions run by both commissions has already been debated at length in this House and I do not propose to say anything further on the matter other than to indicate that because of the economies that are now being achieved I am hopeful, if general financial conditions permit, that it will be possible to discontinue the charging of fees next year.

While on the subject of Civil Service Commission competitions I should say that I have taken steps to discontinue practices which might give the impression that I or any other public representative could interfere and help to get an applicant an established post other than on strict merit.

I have written to public representatives and to applicants who wrote direct to me, explaining that it would be wrong of me to appear in any way to influence the commission. I believe that it is very important, particularly in a time of acute job shortages, that the independence of the commissioners, which has been defined by statute, should be above reproach and be seen to be so.

I come now to Vote 20, the Vote for Superannuation and Retired Allowances, for which a net sum of £36,090,000 is required. The Estimate covers the cost of pensions and lump sums for established and non-established civil servants, widows of such staff and of the Judiciary together with the cost of increasing such pensions under the annual pensions increases.

There is, inevitably, a substantial increase in the cost of superannuation each year because of the increase in the number of pensioners and the annual revision of pensions in line with pay increases.

Vote number 50 — increases in remuneration and pensions — is an additional estimate which was included in the postbudget Estimates Volume. It gives effect to the decision announced in the budget to allocate an additional sum of £60 million on a global basis to meet the cost of pay increases arising under the terms of the amendments to the public service pay agreement.

This money will be allocated and paid to the Departments concerned later in the year to meet any excesses on pay subheads which may arise in relation to such increases.

The bulk of the £60 million — some £42 million or so — is required to meet pay increases which would have arisen in 1982 were it not for the amendments to the original public service pay agreement. Specifically a sum estimated at £25 million is required to meet "recognition" payments arising from the deferment of the application of the 5 per cent third phase of the public service pay agreement.

A further £17 million is included to meet the cost in 1983 of implementing in full special pay awards deferred from 1982. The remaining £18 million is a contingency provision from which will be met any additional costs of special pay awards which may be payable as to the 40 per cent from 1 October 1983 or in full in the case of minor claims or those involving major change on the initiative of the employer.

As regards public service pay generally, the House will be aware that I have been engaged in talks with the Public Services Committee of Congress of ICTU over a long period. Following a preliminary meeting on 21 April with representatives of the committee at which it was agreed that a basis existed for negotiations on a new public service pay agreement, the pay talks proper commenced on 19 May.

A series of meetings ensued which reached an impasse on 21 June when the union negotiators indicated that the position I had put to them was not a basis for further negotiation and that they would be reporting back to the Public Services Committee, as they have done.

While I am naturally disappointed at that development I would like to pay tribute to all concerned for their earnest endeavours to lay the ground for a new comprehensive agreement which would afford an assurance of industrial peace and harmony for the period that lies ahead.

I am satisfied that the talks were treated with great seriousness by all who took part and that there was a strong commitment on both sides to secure an agreement. Given that commitment, and given the importance to the nation of securing a period of stability in industrial relations in the public service, I would hope that it may yet be possible to find a way of reconciling our differences and of reaching an effective accommodation which will minimise the burden to be placed on the taxpayer.

My hope is that, on mature reflection, the public service unions will see the good sense of the Government's approach. In any event, a Cheann Comhairle, I am happy to announce this morning that, as a result of contacts that have been made, the pay talks are expected to resume shortly. It is my earnest hope that, together with the public service unions, I will now be able to reach an agreement on terms that will be in the best interest of nation, the economy and of the union members.

There was an addition at the end of the Minister's speech which he did not circulate. However, I welcome the fact that the introduction of the Public Service Estimate this morning has made someone realise that the best way forward is by consultation, negotiation and by every attempt being made to achieve pay agreements. We do not want to have mayhem and industrial relations difficulties in the public sector. Neither do we want individual battles being fought. I was very disappointed with the Minister's comments on pay because they were inadequate and obviously did not cover what I have asked for so often in this House — a clear, concise outline of the Government's strategy and policy on pay in the public and private sectors.

I would be more critical of this omission were it not for the final words which the Minister said. I am glad that sensible people have at last decided that further contact should be made with a view to reopening pay talks. We are all aware that there is a spate of industrial unrest, much of it caused by the policies of the Government, especially in the budget. At times my sympathy goes out to the Minister for the Public Service. Because of the budget policy, a heavier burden than ever before was put on the PAYE taxpayer affecting take-home pay. After all, take-home pay is the guideline by which the wage earner determines what extra money he needs to cater for his family for the next 12 months.

A heavy burden rests on the Minister for the Public Service, heavier than on any previous Minister, because he is the first Minister for the Public Service not to have another responsibility. During the eight months or so that he has been in office he has been preparing the ground. Maybe over the next 12 months we will see the results of his labours during that eight months, but he has not raised any banners so far despite the opportunity to being able to give his wholetime commitment to that Department only. The Department has assumed great importance since it was first established during the early or middle seventies. Its contribution is considerable in the area of staff numbers, pay negotiations and pay generally, management of the entire civil service structures — this is why I say the Minister has a very onerous burden — pensions, the commission, training, computerisation or further development of the public service generally. However, there were omissions from the Minister's speech this morning that, in my opinion, make his a rather uneasy ministry unless he is prepared to tackle urgently some of the problems he is facing. For example, there is no reference to decentralisation where I made so much progress. There is no reference to the Heritage Bill because responsibility for that has been transferred elsewhere. All in all, the Minister should be able to devote a great deal of time to his slimmed-down responsibilities. He is the only holder of office without another function of Government.

Regarding pay, probably the most urgent and critical matter, he gives a back-handed compliment to his predecessor who negotiated the public service pay agreement in the autumn of last year despite but little help from an irresponsible Leader of the Opposition at that time. The present Taoiseach was critical and unhelpful and was seeking political headlines by rushing home from a holiday in France to, as he put it, get the industrial relations and pay policy of this country back on the rails. That was his contribution to the work of the then Minister for the Public Service. That kind of irresponsibility may have led to his election as Taoiseach, but it is having its own effect and impact on the problems facing this country. Certainly I would never adopt the same irresponsible approach as he did then.

I would be very supportive of the present Minister in the difficult task facing him in the negotiations of a public service pay deal at a very difficult time. That deal is not being helped, eased or facilitated by delays. We have only to look at what is happening around us. It is very difficult to satisfy all sides in a situation where you have the private sector, the public sector, different aspects of the private sector, more vulnerable aspects and areas where more muscle can be exercised with greater success. We have seen the handling or lack of handling of the cooperative deal earlier this week, which of course does not help the settlement that might be achieved. The longer it goes on the more difficulties arise. I urge the Minister to get back to the table and, it is to be hoped, emerge with a new agreement. He will find that my approach to him in regard to this major problem, because of my experience and the little co-operation I had at the time I have referred to from the then Leader of the Opposition, will be supportive of his efforts.

I take this opportunity, the first I have had since last autumn, of complimenting those officials from the Department of the Public Service and other relevant Departments who worked so hard through August, September and October, oft-times from early morning until late at night, Sundays and weekends, without question to achieve a re-negotiated public service pay deal. When so many attacks are launched on the civil service and the public service generally, maybe sometimes justified and warate ranted. I must thank very sincerely the vast majority of people who worked and made such a worthwhile contribution to the administration of our economy. Here were people given the opportunity to serve beyond the call of duty and there was never a complaint from them no matter how long the day was, how late or early it was or whether it was a weekend or any other time. They impressed me. This was dedication and I take the opportunity, which was not afforded to me in this House prior to now, of saying, "Thank you" to those in the public service and outside from other Departments who helped me during those tough and difficult negotiations.

The Minister devoted 99 per cent of his speech to reform of the public service. I suspect from the tenor and tone of that speech that little has been achieved since I left there. I accept that the process is slow and a great deal of consultation is needed. I support much of what the Minister said here this morning regarding the need for change and mobility. I urge both sides — that includes the unions concerned — to treat this very seriously, and I encourage the Minister now, when he has little else to do and a slimmed-down portfolio, to devote a great deal of time to the conference procedures necessary to achieve rapid progress in mobility and in the promotion areas generally.

The Minister regrets that an ombudsman has not been appointed because of the cost factor. I have mixed views on the benefits of an ombudsman because I always had fears that there was a terrible danger of creating a new bureaucracy on top of the existing one. It may sound very attractive, it may carry a lot of "do goodery" or appear to do so, but in real pragmatic terms I am not so sure that there is not a danger of creating here another block of bureaucracy on top of what we already have. I am not convinced that the non-appointment of an ombudsman is a serious matter at least until certain reforms are carried out.

The Department of the Public Service carry tremendous responsibility. In regard to promotional prospects there, I believe there is a greater need for promotions on merit. Too many times, too often, people look jealously and enviously at what is going to happen when a vacancy occurs at a higher level. Too often perhaps it is expected that seniority is the only factor that will be taken into consideration. Of course seniority is important and of consequence, but there are other factors. Merit must be rewarded if we are to get the dynamic, efficient, effective civil service that is needed in the eighties and to take us into the next century. Merit, performance and commitment must be rewarded. I experienced great commitment in many areas of the civil service, particularly with regard to the pay talks last year. The Minister is hatcheting the hatch, and more luck to him. I agree entirely with that. In fact, I claim credit for having presided over the production of the Department's first film. I do not remember the name of it now but I am sure the Minister has seen it. It was a very well prepared film. It shows how procedures can be improved and illustrates the poor impression made by lethargic people when they face the public. I believe the public are entitled to the best possible accomodation, courtesy and efficiency. It is important that training should proceed apace in order to eliminate the supposed barrier between the civil servant and the citizen.

The Minister made a passing reference to examination fees. The imposition of charges for job applications by young people seeking openings in the civil service was the most disgraceful decision of this penny-pinching Government. It was an idea given to them by some miserly individual who saw this as a means of extorting more money from parents. I blame the Minister and the Government who fell for that suggestion. The Opposition were responsible for having these fees reduced substantially and ensuring that one fee only would be payable by an individual, irrespective of the number of applications. Our Private Members' motion achieved a U-turn by the Government but it is still not enough. I hope the Government, who try to tax everything that moves, have now seen the light and that these fees will not be imposed in the future.

Deputy Calleary and I when attached to the Department of the Public Service tried to modernise the approach of the Civil Service Commission, as any elected Minister is entitled to do, provided he does not interfere with the appointment of individuals to particular jobs. We have created some structures within the public service which regard themselves as being independent of everybody. They decide on their own effectiveness and efficiency and if a politician tries in any way to improve the structure he or she runs the risk of a distorted story being released to the press, as in the case of Deputy Calleary and I when it was implied that we were interfering politically with the Civil Service Commission. This was far from the truth. We were endeavouring to eliminate a few practices which we felt were not absolutely fair to the general public. An example was the refusal by the commission to postpone the appointment of young people who were offered employment in the months from March to June until after the leaving certificate examination. Many parents complained to politicians about this practice because they felt it was in the best interests of those young people that they should be allowed to sit for the examination in preparation for later life.

What is the present position regarding decentralisation? We had worked hard to reach the stage where units of various Departments were being decentralised. We were trying to remove some of the input to the Dublin economy and move it to other areas. You, a Cheann Comhairle, had a particular interest in Cavan, as had my colleague, Deputy Wilson. Is it true that the site in Killarney is being offered for sale and that the Government are looking at other sites to see what moneys can be realised from their sale? I appeal to the Minister to prevent the sale of any of those sites. It is extremely important to retain them so that the decentralistaion programme can recommence at the earliest opportunity.

In Cork the reversal of a decision concerning An Foras Forbartha means that a very important development is unlikely to take place in the foreseeable future. It would have given approximately 1,600 jobs in the construction industry as well as a considerable number of service jobs and would have been a major project of urban renewal in the one area of the city which is now run down. The development would have been a great contribution to Cork which is suffering very severely from the ravages of unemployment. There are also fears for the future of some of the public sector companies in the harbour region.

The decentralisation programme is of major consequence to many rural areas. It will affect Killarney, Cavan, Dundalk, Waterford, to name but a few. It will generate activity in all these regions. It will give worth-while jobs and add to social, economic and environmental development in these regions. We in Fianna Fáil were prepared to lay down literally concrete developments which would house people and provide employment and development. The public service covers a wide area but with this Government one never knows what decisions, if any, will be taken because we have heard so many announcements made but they were all changed afterwards. This morning we read that the Minister for Finance has decided on further cutbacks in Environment, Health, Education, to mention but a few. I suppose this is a big build-up to what we will be hearing in the next few weeks.

In The Irish Press of 28 June we read that Mr. Justice Costello has accepted the Taoiseach's invitation to chair a committee on youth whose report is to be issued shortly. That is another committee being established in the public service. We do not know yet whether the members have been appointed or who they will be or what their terms of reference will be. Mr. Justice Costello is an eminent member of the Judiciary for whom I have the greatest respect. I particularly remember him as the chairman of the Whiddy Inquiry and his performance was tremendous, only what I would expect from a man of his calibre. However, I am amazed that a member of the Judiciary would chair a policy formation committee. It is a new development, an unusual strange one, in the public service. We will probably hear more about that committee and we will be waiting with interest for the announcement of its membership.

I do not know what the Cabinet task force are doing. I am sure they are serviced from different Departments. However, the Government have insulted the public service by the appointment of advisers and assistants all over the place. They are very able people, I have no doubt, who made excellent election contributions to the Coalition parties. The Minister's party have not been slow in this regard. They are past exponents in this.

The Deputy's party had none?

This time it is being done at a rate never before practised. This time it is a much more costly exercise than ever before, despite all the talk about cutbacks. Before the election we heard about cutbacks in State cars for junior Ministers but now we see them being used to drive to the opening of public house extensions. Would you believe that a State car was used to drive to the opening of an extension to a public house?

Do not believe everything you read.

The Deputy is getting a lot of mileage out of State cars.

The appointment of these advisers must have an undermining effect on the civil service structure as we know it. The Minister for the Public Service has a very onerous task and his performance will be scrutinised closely by this side of the House. We will be particularly interested in his policy in regard to decentralisation, now that the Heritage Council has been taken from him.

In the pay negotiations he is now conducting with the public service, I hope the outcome will be the best possible in the public interest. We will be keeping a close eye on developments. We also hope that he will do his best to get ahead with reform in his Department, that he will make rapid progress and that when we come back in the autumn many of these reforms will be before us for discussion. We have been talking about Dáil reform for six months but not one iota of progress has been made.

We heard on the Order of Business this morning about the questions the Taoiseach and the Minister for Trade, Commerce and Tourism used to ask on the Order of Business when they were on this side. It is very different when they are in Government. The Taoiseach should be prepared to answer questions as freely as he asked them when he was in Opposition.

As I said earlier, we on this side will be looking forward to progress in public service reform and that it will conform with what the public need. I hope that additional work will not be created for compositors and printers in the matter of forms. I hope they will be simplified because what is needed is the shortest possible number of words. I do not think there is any public representative who would not strive to have these forms simplified.

I am glad to have the opportunity to contribute to the debate on this Estimate. We will be a watchdog on the pay scene. To date the Government have not shown any interest in a unified approach. Because the Estimate was coming before the House this morning the Minister was able to add a little note to the effect that he has succeeded in making contact, and that the pay talks will be resumed. That is not good enough in the present difficult times. We need a positive approach, not a negative one. I hope there will be a positive approach in the area of reform. We will be judging the Minister. We will be watching him. When he negotiates the pay deal that will be the end of his involvement. He will be able to give his full time to public service reform. I hope progress will have been made when we come back in the autumn after the recess.

Deputy Brady has indicated that he wishes to speak before me, but I notice that he is not in the House.

I called you Deputy.

The Deputy was being accommodating.

I was being magnanimous. I congratulate the Minister for the Public Service on his speech today and on indicating to the House the likelihood of the reopening of the public service pay talks. That is very welcome news. It will be welcomed in the public service and in the commercial world. For quite a number of years pay in the public service, and what happened generally in the public service, had a direct affect on the private sector. This had got a little out of hand in the past few years. It is being tackled at last.

I should like to refer to the increase in the number of public servants between 1977 and 1981. Politicians and Governments could be forgiven perhaps, for allowing the public service to grow at a time when jobs were hard to get in other areas. I suppose it was an easy way to provide jobs, but it was not necessarily productive from the taxpayers' point of view. We all know the difficulties facing young people coming out of school and seeking jobs. They are all very highly qualified. It would appear that there are jobs in the public service for which they are fully qualified. If the service was expanded they could be given employment.

We should not forget — and this is where the mistake was made between 1977 and 1981 — that all pay for public servants has to be raised through taxation or through borrowing. We have all learned our lesson in that area over the past number of years. The brake has been put on and there has been a slowing down in the recruitment. This will be of benefit not only to public servants but to people who are likely to get jobs inside and outside the public service by way of a reduction in their taxation.

It would not be necessary to have such a high level of taxation if the public service were not so costly. I am not saying that in criticism of the public service. I am just pointing out a fact. Many people do not wish to acknowledge that the revenue which ultimately goes towards paying for the public service — and I suppose we are part of it — has to be generated in the commercial world, largely by the private sector. We can only afford what those sectors can pay for, and they have been finding it increasingly difficult to carry that burden.

The Minister mentioned the importance of accountability to the Oireachtas. It is essential that Deputies and Senators ensure that the services under their control are answerable to them. We are answerable to the public. It would be very wrong if it should ever become the norm that any service would become autonomous in the sense that they did not recognise that they were answerable to the Oireachtas. It has often been said that politicians have too much power and that they abuse their power. I do not agree with that. All the services under the aegis of this House must be answerable to the Oireachtas. Otherwise the democratic system would cease to function from the point of view of the electorate. As I have said, we are answerable to the electorate. Over the past two or three years the electorate have had ample opportunity to express their confidence or lack of it in us. The public generally do not have the same recourse to the public service.

We must insist that at all times all our services treat the public in a courteous and mannerly fashion in all their dealings with them.

Hear, hear.

This costs nothing and it is absolutely essential if we are to inspire confidence in the public service in the minds of the public. Over a long number of years, I suppose by virtue of being under a colonial power at one time, we have had a certain lack of respect for public institutions. That is unfortunate, but there would be more grounds for that lack of respect if it could be said that those institutions did not treat the public collectively and individually in the manner in which they would like to be treated themselves. It does not matter which branch of the service we are dealing with, whether it is the civil service, the various Departments, the Garda or the Army — at all times they must deal with the public in a courteous and amicable fashion.

There has been reference to an ombudsman. Many local authorities have in principle adopted the concept of an ombudsman. I can see justification for such an appointment. However, I would have to have regard also to what Deputy Gene Fitzgerald said concerning the possibility of creating further bureaucracy. He echoed exactly my words at a local authority meeting some time ago. It would be of no service at all to the public if after the establishment of the office of ombudsman we were to discover that in order that his office might operate he would have to draw around him a conglomerate of other services at enormous cost to the Exchequer until, like many other institutions, it would become gummed up entirely in red tape. That would be most undesirable and should not happen.

I accept that there is a need for the ordinary members of the public to have recourse to some quarter where they can have their complaints heard and dealt with quickly and efficiently. At present the people fulfilling that task generally are public representatives, Members of this House. If the increase in the workload of public representatives can be regarded as any kind of a yardstick in this connection, then one would have to agree that there is a need for some type of ombudsman.

One reads regularly in the media of the cost of parliamentary questions, of replying to representations in relation to various matters raised by Members of both Houses of the Oireachtas and being decried as a waste of public money. I contend that if the people concerned were getting the services, their as of right, it would not be necessary for the public to have recourse to us. That is why it is absolutely essential that the human side of the public service be available to the public, as it were. There are 160-plus Dáil Deputies. If they are generating such an enormous workload and vast expense for the public service who must reply to the various queries, surely, having regard to the size of the public service vis-à-vis the numbers of public representatives, it should not be too difficult for public representatives to receive replies quickly and efficiently, or perhaps the public themselves might be able to get those replies themselves without the need to come to us.

The Minister referred to efficiency in the public service, as did Deputy Gene Fitzgerald. That is most desirable. In these times the public generally are very critical of the way their taxes are spent, critical of public servants and of public representatives. Therefore it is essential that the public not alone get an efficient return for their taxes but are seen to be receiving such. That is why those engaged in any aspect of the public service should at all times ensure that they give an honest return for their salary. I say that because they are always in the public eye, though they may not necessarily think so. They are always held up to scrutiny by a public now more discerning than ever before, a public who are very critical of the way in which they see their taxes being spent. All of those public servants in their dealings with the public should ensure that they act in a manner becoming of their office and in a way which complement the services.

I welcome the proposed simplification of application and other types of forms. I wish there was some way in which income tax return forms could be simplified as soon as possible.

I have it down here. I will not have to refer to it now.

One of the greatest problems confronting us as public representatives at clinics, particularly when in a hurry, is to see some unfortunate, elderly person — perhaps an old age pensioner — come along with a bundle of tax return forms for the last five or perhaps even ten years. It is then that we wonder whether we shall ever get home that evening.

But the accountant down the street will charge that person ten guineas. That is the point.

A good point has been made by Deputy Wilson: that it would constitute an extra charge on the unfortunate individual concerned to ensure that he or she was not liable to extra taxation making it necessary to go to an accountant. If there was an ombudsman perhaps they would go to him, but he might well not provide these services we are providing now. I have seen cases of elderly people asked to fill out returns of their income for the last five, six or ten years. They throw up their hands in dismay. This happens at the end of their working life, many of them may be in receipt of the old age pension or perhaps just prior to qualification for it and they see this as the last straw, something that may take them weeks to work out. They readily admit that they cannot understand much of the jargon on some of these forms for the simple reason that they are changed regularly, although of course that may be necessary.

If should like to see all of these forms being simplified — application forms, income tax returns and so on. The simplification of the tax system is a matter for another time. Application forms for various types of loans — local authority loans. SDA loans, HFA loans and so on — are becoming most complicated. It takes almost half an hour for a public representative to go through one of these forms in any detail with an applicant in order to ensure that the application is not spoiled, as it were. Here I come to the nub of the problem. It is absolutely essential that public servants dealing with the public — and I am not criticising them — in relation to application forms of this nature should endeavour to assist them. Instead of letting them on their own when filling in their application forms, the public servants, knowing the information they have at their disposal, should be prepared to assist the public to qualify for what is theirs by right. I am not suggesting that they should be assisted to qualify for something to which they are not entitled. A simplification of all types of application forms will go some way towards helping people who have to make applications to the public service, whether it be for social welfare, an old age pension, income tax return or whatever. This simplification will resolve some of the problems at least.

The public service should have a human face and in all its dealings with the public it should ensure that the public have confidence in it and in all the institutions of the State. It is essential that the public are treated in a way which will ensure they retain their dignity.

The Minister dealt with promotion on merit in some detail. I agree wholeheartedly when he said promotion should be on merit Having regard to the educational qualifications of the officials concerned, and the availability of highly qualified people in the public service, it is essential that these people be promoted on merit while taking into account age and length of service. It is very wrong to hide away capable and highly-qualified people until they reach a particular age to qualify for promotion.

Some time ago I had dealings with the British Department of Health and Social Services on behalf of a constituent. I was seeking certain information which was needed to help him to qualify for a loan. I had to contact two sections. One had been on strike for some weeks and I was fortunate enough to find a senior official in the other section. I had a reply from him within two days and the result was that my constituent qualified for the loan. The peculiar thing was that two months later I received a reply from the other section asking me if I had permission from the individual concerned to have this confidential information disclosed. There were various reasons set out why the information could not be disclosed and I received a long questionnaire asking for further details before the matter could be processed. This made me sit back and take stock. Two points came to mind. I had successfully got through the wall of red tape and got the information necessary to deal with the matter quickly and efficiently, but there was a conscientious officer somewhere who felt the information should not be given without the prior consent of the individual concerned. This something we could look at.

I am not so sure that I, as a public representative, should be entitled to private and confidential information simply because I write a letter on behalf of a constituent. Authority, written or otherwise, should be given to me before any private and confidential information is disclosed to me. Under the present system unscrupulous people could abuse this privilege. I am not saying that happens, but that point just occurred to me. If a constituent gave his public representative written authority, or power of attorney, the official would know that the public representative was getting that private and confidential information on behalf of his constituent.

Deputy Fitzgerald said the Minister should have abolished the charges for public service job applications sooner.

He should never have introduced them.

He claims that it was because of his intervention these fees were watered down.

That is right.

The Minister said they will be discontinued next year. I would like to thank him for that. I want to inform the Opposition that we were in no small way responsible for this happening. We told the Minister that because of the improved financial state of the country next year he will be able to abolish these charges. I would not like the Opposition to get the impression that they were completely responsible for this move. It was unfortunate that these charges had to be introduced this year, but I understand why they had to be introduced. I welcome the phasing out of these charges.

The general public have come to believe and accept that many services are "free". There is no free service. The public believe that if they do not pay directly for a service it is being paid for by an umbrella organisation, by forces they cannot see. Nothing could be further from the truth. They do not believe the money comes out of their own pockets. Ultimately, everything is paid for by the taxpayer and the public contribute indirectly to every service provided. All the public services have to be paid for one way or the other; in fact, they have to be paid for by way of taxation by members of the public service as well. Nothing is free. It seems, unfortunately, to have gone abroad that some of those services are free, gratis and for nothing. They are costing a great deal of money and will cost an increased amount in the future because there will always be increases in pay, pensions and so forth. I am not disagreeing with that, but it is essential that the general public be made fully aware that at all times they are paying for the services which they may or may not believe to be free.

I have mentioned the desirability of a helpful attitude on the part of public servants. I ask the Minister present to pay special attention towards ensuring that public servants, instead of adopting the "inside the counter" attitude, will let the public know that they are there to help them to qualify for what is theirs by right. Nobody wants other than that.

The Minister has stressed the importance of more open, friendly and less inhibiting surroundings in the public services offices and I fully agree. It is essential tha the impersonal "hatch" system disappear. Many are intimidated by having to stand for a long while in a long queue and when they reach the hatch are conscious that there is a queue of people behind them who, like themselves, have been waiting a long time. It is then, more than ever important that the attitude of the person with whom they are dealing does not intimidate but encourages them to deal openly with that public servant. Also, it is important that they have their business carried out privately as opposed to its being aired in public. It is undignified that people should have to discuss their business publicly, knowing that their neighbours and perhaps friends are standing listening to and watching what is going on.

During the postal strike a few years ago, when there were long queues of people waiting for social welfare payments, some unscrupulous people were so close to what was happening that they were able to write down names and reference numbers and use them to gain benefits which were not theirs by right. It is essential that the public have their problems dealt with privately and confidentially, without feeling that the whole countryside is becoming aware of their problems.

The Minister has said that all citizens are entitled to efficiency and courtesy in their dealings with public servants, particularly with regard to the most unfortunate of the community. I have referred to the elderly and to those who may not necessarily be accustomed to dealing with public servants. To appear before the hatch for the first time in one's life is intimidating. One must have regard for these unfortunate people. The elderly, having worked all their lives, feel that their dignity is being taken from them by having to, as it were, prostrate themselves in order to get what is theirs by right.

The Minister spoke about the Civil Service Commission and the Local Appointments Commission. Like the previous speaker, I know that these commissions are absolutely above board and completely impartial, which is as it should be. No members of the public should feel that by going to a public representative they can get something to which they would not be entitled in the ordinary way. I should be very worried if anything else were to become the case. Jobs and promotion are got purely on merit and strictly in accordance with the rules set down. It would be very wrong if anything else were to prevail regarding political or any other promotions, such as the operation of the old school tie system. If someone seeking a job found that anything other than merit would get it for him or her, that would be very wrong. I am not criticising any appointments, merely reiterating that it must be seen at all times that appointments and promotions are obtained strictly in accordance with regulations.

The Minister has pointed out that the public service has one advantage in these times over the private sector and that is security. It is necessary that all these employees realise that their jobs are far safer than those of their brothers and sisters in the private sector — absolutely safe. Those outside in the private sector do not know if their jobs will be there tomorrow. There have been countless instances where young people in the private sector have got married and taken out steep mortgages on their property on the basis of their income at a given time and have found, even after a few short months, that their houses have to be sold over their heads because they have lost their jobs due to factories or businesses closing down and they being no longer able to meet their repayment commitments. That does not so often happen in the public service, for which the service generally should be thankful. Certainly, I should not like to see it any other way, but the public must know that the public servants are aware of this.

If there is to be respect for our public institutions, the public must be treated by the public services with respect. Otherwise, we will have a situation in which the sort of situation that was talked about last night during the Debate on another Estimate might very well come about. For some time in this country there has been disrespect for authority, disrespect for public institutions and for other people's property. Perhaps the attitude to public institutions is a legacy from the days of domination by a foreign power but it is something that we should all strive to change in an effort to arrive at a situation in which there would be full co-operation on the part of the public with the institutions of State. This would be to the benefit of everyone.

I congratulate the Minister on his appointment. He has an onerous job but I am confident that he is capable of doing that job very well. I hope that at the end of his five-year term we will have a more efficient public service and that the unit costs will not be as great as they are at present.

My contribution will be very brief. I should like to refer first to the ban on recruitment to the public service. In his speech the Minister admitted that this ban works rather crudely at times, especially in those Departments where there are technical staff as well as the ordinary civil service staff. Last evening during the debate on the Estimate for the Department of Justice, the Minister highlighted the work of the Land Registry. Deputies on all sides of the House are aware of delays in one part of the activity of that office. I appreciate that the work involved is difficult, that it involves a good deal of research and that great care must be taken about the legal implications of anything that is done but delays of up to 12 months are long. I do not think that the necessary level of staffing is available to deal with the work of that office with the result that the whole operation is long and tedious.

The Minister referred to the difficulty that the ban on the recruitment of staff is causing in that area. There are four main sectors in the Land Registry. The work is very important and technical, but the one I am talking of is the only one in which delays are so long. Because of the importance of that area I am asking the Minister to practice what I would call the selective ignoring of his rules about recruitment. I suggest also that this be done in regard to the appointment of an assistant secretary in the Department of Transport and of the post of deputy secretary in the Department of Education. I succeeded in having a deputy secretary appointed to that Department but I do not think there has been one there since. Departments with much lighter workloads than those have deputy secretaries.

The second point I wish to take up is that of the decentralisation programme which our Government had outlined and had intended going through with. This programme was based on a philosophy which is incorporated in Fianna Fáil's basic constitution. It is very important objective to decentralise Government and to infuse life into many towns. Recently we had a discussion here about the effects of the Border in those areas both North and South which are adjacent to it. We know that as a result of direct Government policy now there is commercial stagnation and severe depression in the area from Dundalk to Bun an Phobail in Donegal. Our programme of decentralisation was aimed at, among other towns, Dundalk in the north-eastern corner, Cavan in the mid-Border area, and Letterkenny in the north-west.

The Government are wrong in either deferring or cancelling the decentralisation programme. I was shocked to hear Deputy Fitzgerald say that the Government had offered for public sale some of the sites that were available for decentalisation purposes. If this is true, it is a retrograde step and I appeal to the Minister to reverse it and to let the programme go ahead as quickly as possible.

Anybody who reads the statistics supplied regularly by the CSO will notice the very large numbers in relation to unemployment in the construction industry. There are bricklayers, carpenters, plasterers, painters and decorators and so on who have skills which they are only too willing to use if only the Government would give them the opportunity of doing so by going ahead with the decentralisation programme. Once a skill is developed it is maintained by regular usage but it is very sad that young people who have been trained in the various trades are not getting the opportunity of applying their skills.

When it was stated what the finance necessary to go ahead with the decentralisation programme was not available, I put it to the Minister for Industry and Energy that the money is available by way of a privatisation scheme for the construction of buildings necessary to allow decentralisation to take place and I suggested that this could be done at a far more economic rate than is the case in regard to buildings either built by the Government or rented by them in the capital city. Consequently there was, even from the point of view of saying money, which was emphasised by Deputy Durkan, an obligation on the Minister to see what he could do about it.

I listened with interest to what Deputy Durkan said about the ombudsman. The Minister mentioned this in his speech. Every Deputy in his own way is an ombudsman. Perhaps the setting up of an office of ombudsman will relieve Deputies of much routine work on behalf of constituents. However, the clinic work in constituencies is very important for any Deputy because it is the only way he can see where the shoe is pressing and what the problems are in the community he serves. The appointment of an ombudsman will not take away from that. Admittedly, it may take away many of the routine complaints about telephone bills and so on but a Deputy must be a watchdog for his constituents and that will continue.

There was a new issue of stamps recently showing some Irish dogs. Some of the watchdogs were terriers, some were wolfhounds, some were spaniels and some were Kerry Blues. It is important that we maintain that role. I do not know if the office of ombudsman will grow into a huge apparatus of administration and defeat the purpose for which it was set up.

It is important that technology should be utilised in the public service to improve efficiency. I was proud to take an initiative in the realm of computer education when in 1981 at a vocational education congress in Tralee I announced a new departure as far as computers were concerned. There will always be a need for highly competent people in the public service. I would not like the public service to become a huge, amorphous, efficient machine. I hope we will never reach that stage. The machine is made to serve the public service and the country and not the other way around.

The Minister referred to the fact that offices which the public use should be reasonably comfortable and equipped in such a way that civil servants and Ministers can deal with the public in an efficient manner The Minister was Minister for Education for a short time and will remember the front hall in Marlborough Street. There was no facility there for dealing with people who called in. On the way to his office the Minister has often to elbow his way through a mass of citizenry doing business with civil servants along the walls and in all kinds of holes and corners. I am sure this is one office which could be improved. The offices dealing with income tax queries need a great deal of attention. I am glad the Minister is hostile to the idea of the hatch. It is a them and us situation when one is poking one's head through a hatch and trying to do important business such as putting one's income tax in order or eliciting information about one's obligations in that regard.

Gerald Brown in his book “South from Granada” told about his young days in that area when he was courting through a hatch, it being the Spanish custom. He stood at the Reja and all he could see was his novia's head. Once when he inveigled someone to let him into the patio he discovered that she was only three foot, nine inches tall and that all he had been looking at was a beautiful face without any sub-structure.

That is one of the dangers of the hatch.

I am glad the Minister is getting rid of that type of operation as between citizen and official.

If it has any other side benefits in the area the Deputy is referring to I would be happy to facilitate that also.

It is always the way that when something is raised that everybody is interested in there will be interruptions.

If the Minister wants introductions south from Granada I may be able to arrange a few.

That is a very generous offer.

Civil servants should get an opportunity to go abroad and get some experience of administrations other than their own. Our entry into the EEC changed the situation slightly, in that there is more information, light and air blowing through the system. Just as our Army officers go abroad on courses on a regular basis, there should be greater facilities for public servants to go abroad and experience methods of work in other countries.

The Institute of Public Administration deserves a word of praise. It has built its muscle over the years since it was established and it is doing a great service. One could commend the personnel there on their record of publications. Deputy Durkan spoke at length about the efficiency of the Civil Service and its working. A Minister is at a disadvantage in a sense when in office because he is at the centre of things and the civil servants who work around him work very hard. I would say that hardly anyone in the community works as hard as the people who are in the Minister's office from the point of view of the length of time they work, pressure, the severity of concentration and so on. That does not mean there may not be backwaters away from the Ministers office where people are feathering their oars. Nevertheless the people with whom the Minister is directly concerned are providing a service and working to the limit of human possibility.

I am glad there is a possibility that charges for examinations will be done away with. I have a suspicion that this idea did not come from the Minister. I would not do him the injustice of saying he thought up something like this. It might have come from a famous man who is now dead, Myles na gCopaleen who in An Cruskeen Lán outlined a way for making money. To give an idea of how long ago it was, £1,000 a year was a marvellous salary. He had the idea that the thing to do was to advertise a job at £1,000 a year and he reckoned that at that time, with the qualifications he was laying down, there would be at least 1,000 people qualified and looking for the job. The thing to do was to charge them £5 each for entrance to the examination. That meant that there would be £5,000 in the kitty to start off. It was important to insert a condition that there would be one year's probation and when he had pocketed his £5,000 this man would pick the best, pay the fellow £1,000 and make £4,000 profit. That was the kind of thinking behind the Minister's idea which, after such an outcry in the country and from this side of the House — I was worried at that time about Deputy Gene Fitzgerald whose blood pressure went very high when he was letting the Minister know he was displeased about this — is on the way out.

I am glad Deputy Durkan made the point about the independence of the Civil Service Commissioners and the Local Appointments Commissioners. I was pleased that he laid it on the line that merit only was the criterion used by the commissioners. With regard to promotions within the civil service it is difficult to change from established practice. Merit should be, and for the most part is, the touchstone. When the question of experience, age and so on clashes with the idea of efficiency, problems arise in Departments. Merit must prevail no matter who is offended because the very best should be appointed and the public are entitled to have them. An important point with regard to promotion is that there should be a system of inviting ideas from those working in the Department. Those ideas should be sent direct to the Minister and not up through the system because they may be killed on the way up the ladder. It is usual in Departments to send a memo to the official next in authority but that may never reach the Minister. There should be a system of canvassing people with experience in Departments for ideas for improving either the working of the Department or for ideas that are applicable in the range of public life to which the Department refers. That could prove helpful.

I dealt with the question of decentralisation in the absence of the Ceann Comhairle and I am sorry he was not present because I am sure he would have smiled benignly on me as I made a case for a certain area not unknown to the Chair.

I should like to refer to the public service and the Irish language. Tá a fhios agam ó bunaíodh an Stát gur thug Oifigigh Stáit an-áit don Ghaeilge agus do fhorbairt na Gaeilge agus an cultúr náisiúnta sa státseirbhís. Tá a fhios agam go bhfuil eagraíocht acu chun an Ghaeilge do chur ar aghaidh sa státseirbhís agus go bhfuil an eagraíocht sin ag gníomhú go maith i láthair na huaire. Fuair mé nuachtán le déanaí, nuachtán a chuir státseirbhísigh, seirbhísigh an phobail, thart ar na Teachtaí á chur in iúl go bhfuil siad chun an nuachtán sin a dhíol leis na státseirbhísigh chun cúrsaí cultúrtha agus cursaí a bhaineann le státseirbhísigh a chur ar aghaidh. Tá súil agam nach ndéanfaidh siad failí sa teanga Ghaeilge, sa chultúr náisiúnta. Má sheasann siad leis an dualgas atá orthu agus leis an traidisiún atá anois bunaithe sa státseirbhís, ní loicfidh siad sa chuid sin den ghnó ata ar bun acu ach an oiread.

I should like to wish the Minister well in his new post and the best of luck in his negotiations in the public service pay talks. He faces an onerous task. On this small island the population is about 4 million, less than the population of a borough of London or New York but the annual cost of running the country is astronomical. For instance the budget for the Department of Education this year is of the order of £900 million with £760 million going in wages and salaries to officials in the Department and teachers. An average increase in pay of 6 per cent would cost £40 million and that would leave £860 million to run that Department next year, to build new schools, maintain existing schools and provide other facilities. I hope the Minister and the unions will arrive at a consensus of opinion and will see to it that commonsense prevails in this area.

I agree with the points made by Deputy Wilson in regard to the filling of forms. The Minister was good enough to write to each Member seeking their area of preference for the type of application form to be filled. Recently an old age pensioner came to me with six income tax claim forms giving back over a number of years. That pensioner who is well into her seventies and owns a small shop in rural Ireland, received those six forms for no apparent reason. That person who had never travelled beyond the borders of her native county was asked to give details of the income she had from her trade, profession or vocation and the income, if any, she had from her position as a writer, dramatist, composer, painter or sculptor. The forms went on to ask what patent royalties she had received, if any, and the dealings she had in land. She was asked if she had any partnership income with anybody else; the pensions, including social welfare pensions, she received from any offices, if she had any interest that had been taxed before receiving it, if any untaxed income was received by her from abroad, if any income was given to her under specific settlements, if there was any income from which Irish tax was deducted and the income she had had from distributions of companies which she was involved in. She was asked for details of her medical insurance, expenses in employment, retirement annuities, rents payable to non-residents, capital gains accrued, charitable assets acquired and a series of questions about looking after incapacitated individuals, age allowances, blind pensions, whether she had children, including step children or legally adopted children, and who she was looking after. That is a typical case. To present such a person with such a series of forms for income tax is frightening.

In rural Ireland there has been a tradition about the filling of application forms. Some people hold the view that if they fill a form they are giving information which may be used against them at some future date. Down the years, particularly in the west, people have been wary about filling forms of any description. They do not want to give all the information they have and which they think others are looking for. In the past such people brought those forms to public representatives to have them filled up properly. One of the reasons for doing that was that if anything went wrong the public representative in question would have to accept the consequences. Deputies have fostered that, and legislation passed here down the years has added to the pile of administrative work involved in filling up forms.

Public representatives had the feeling that they needed to hold on to their constituents by filling out those forms and giving the impression that if they were not filled out by them they would not be filled out properly. Public representatives have done this over the years and it has backlashed. They are responsible for this to some degree. At one time when there were only old age pensions and possibly housing grants the volume of application forms was quite limited. But with each succeeding year's budget, challenges to the constitutionality of various issues and more and more legislation, there has been more and more administrative work, more and more paper work has been flowing through the Department of the Public Service as well as other Departments, and that has added to the burden of everybody.

When a person writes to a Department about a simple issue such as a housing grant that person may or may not receive an acknowledgment. There may be trouble with a builder or there may be pressure on that person for payment of money and that person may write again. He or she may telephone and the telephone might not work. The person eventually brings the case before a public representative. It either ends up as a parliamentary question or the public representative will get on directly to some person in the section dealing with the matter and the problem is sorted out. It is only when one leaves the country and looks at the administration system and the efficiency of some of our EEC partners that one realises how inefficient we are in many areas and how the method of sorting out problems over the years has really added enormous pressure on to civil servants and the public service in general.

A lot has been written about the workload of public representatives over the years. So far as the vast majority of them are concerned they do their work as well as they can. Many of them are unpaid, such as the members of local authorities, who do an enormous amount of administrative work in dealing with problems in their areas. The question of an ombudsman has been mentioned. Since I was very young I have been reading about it in the debates in the British House of Commons. If an ombudsman is to be appointed during the term of this Dáil the Minister for the Public Service will have to ensure that this person is given the back-up service to do the job properly and effectively. There is no point in the public service having a super public representative at the top of the scale if he has not got the office equipment and the facilities to do his job effectively. It might not be a bad idea if the ombudsman who is to be appointed had previously served in some capacity as a public representative because he would have an idea of the kind of claims and the volume of claims he is likely to receive.

The new power today is really information, the flow of information and the use of that information translated into knowledge and thereby into efficient action. This has been advanced enormously by the computer, the microchip, the microprocessor and so on. Projects carried out in various offices in various countries indicate that the efficiency of an office staff can be greatly advanced by the use of such sophisticated equipment. They do not break down. They do not go on strike. They do not turn up late and they can work in three shifts throughout the day if necessary.

The human face of the public service is very important. The public service has been maligned in many cases by people who claim they have not been treated properly by public servants in the various offices. It very often happens that the complainant does not make his case sufficiently well, or does not have the information required by the public servant. In no office in this country, with the exception of a very few, have I been treated with anything less than the courtesy which any public representative should get. The civil servants in the various offices one has an opportunity to visit always deal with public representatives with the greatest courtesy and problems will be sorted out if at all possible.

The Civil Service Commission have been mentioned. The impartiality of the Civil Service Commission is something to be commended. I remember writing to the Civil Service Commission about a particular person about seven years ago. It was not long before I got back a very curt reply indicating to me quite rightly, that if I were to continue in this vein the person concerned would get short shrift. That is the way it should be.

The question of merit has been mentioned and this is to be commended. There is a degree of personal relationship involved in the Local Appointments Commission, where within local authorities you can have a movement of managers, county secretaries, staff officers and others from one local authority area to another. When the interview boards are set up for various appointments it can happen that interviewees attending for particular positions might find themselves being interviewed by that person's senior staff officer, county secretary or county manager some time in the past. A degree of personal relationship probably enters into appointments in those areas. By and large, those appointments are made on merit and this is to be commended.

Some other speakers have mentioned semi-State bodies. I do not think it is related to the Minister's area of responsibility and the Chair might not be too lenient with me if I spoke for any length about them. The question of the efficiency of the civil service and the public service have also been mentioned.

Deputy Wilson referred to the decentralisation problem. My county has been the beneficiary of a decentralisation programme which was initiated by the former and late Deputy Micheál O Móráin, who was a Minister for many years. This decentralisation was carried on by the succeeding Coalition Government. The office built in Castlebar was built to a very high standard. The people working there have facilities which many Dublin offices do not have. The only problem which has arisen is when some Departments are very busy at particular times of the year — I am thinking of the Department of Agriculture dealing with various schemes in different parts of the country — and there could be other sections of Departments which might not be busy for long periods. Due to the difficulty of staffing levels and the different unions people are members of, it is not possible to have people who might find themselves idle for long periods being able to give assistance to people who are over-burdened all of the time in sections of the Department of Agriculture or in the income tax section.

Another problem which arose in relation to decentralisation is that many people who offered to travel to decentralised offices and take up appointments in them found themselves blocked for promotion when they had an opportunity to apply or when they were due in the normal way for promotion. This happened because the level to which they would be promoted might not be available in the decentralised offices. Those people were expected to return to Dublin or some central place if they were to be awarded promotion. This led to a certain amount of disincentive to apply for jobs which would normally give them a higher remuneration and would be at a higher level of promotion. I believe some work was done in this area by the people concerned and it has been sorted out to a degree. It is not possible to continue it on to the end of the road because if one did, one would find that a complete Department right up to the top would have to be decentralised to a certain area. The public servants in decentralised offices understand and accept that. However, it caused initial difficulties from that point of view. I am sure the Minister will bear in mind that in the decentralised offices there is an increase in morale and confidence. There is also a greater awareness of what the public service is all about. When finances permit I hope the Minister will see to it that the programme is reactivated and ensure that there will be no undue delay when the time is opportune.

The matter of civil servants and their impartiality has been raised. In the past few years in the term of office of various Governments an increasing number of people have been allocated to the offices of Ministers and Ministers of State to carry out constituency work on behalf of the Minister concerned. This arose because of the increased volume of constituency work and the large volume of legislation passed by the Houses of the Oireachtas. It is difficult for Ministers to look after their constituents because much of their time is tied up in Brussels or they are involved in the passage of difficult legislation. I am sure that the increasing number of civil servants looking after constituency work for Ministers is a matter of some concern to civil servants generally but the work has to be done. I know the Association of Higher Civil Servants discussed this matter at their annual conference in 1982. The point was made there that when special advisers are taken on by Ministers their terms of employment should be made crystal-clear and they should not in any way become politically partial. These people should be taken in specifically for their specialist advice in a particular area and they should stick to that in terms of advising the Minister.

The fact that civil servants move with Ministers from Department to Department has led to certain public disquiet. It is natural that a Minister would build up a certain relationship with a civil servant in terms of knowing the constituency, the problems of the Department and so on. If a Minister had a particularly good working relationship with a civil servant it would be natural, on the Minister being appointed to a different Department, that he would request that public servant to go with him. People may say that the movement of civil servants in that area is politically motivated but I do not accept that. The public service have made efforts to keep such matters above board.

It is important that public servants should keep the Official Secrets Act and that aspect should be adhered to strictly. There have been instances in the past few years when various Governments were in office of leaks from certain Departments. I am sure the Minister for the Public Service is concerned about this. The drafting of Bills, discussions at Cabinet level and various items of national importance that are discussed in Departments should be kept secret until it is appropriate to make them public. I am sure the Minister has indicated to the Departments that he is quite concerned about the leaks emanating from Departments for various reasons.

I can understand that a public servant in any Department might not get on too well with a Minister. There may be occasions when a public servant may be called to order by the Minister, to increase the level of efficiency or to produce answers in a short time to questions raised. If civil servants were to take that in a personal sense they might take a dislike to the Minister and give information that was discussed in the Department to the press or to a public representative who might make it known to the press. In this way a certain amount of confusion and public disquiet could be created.

I know in many Departments there are young civil servants with ability, initiative, motivation and dedication. These people have bright, fresh ideas but they are not given an opportunity to put them forward. The Minister would do well to initiate a move in all Departments to ensure that such people are able to put forward their ideas and are given an opportunity to implement them or have them implemented for them. From that point of view it is important that the promotional aspect within the public service be completely above board and be guided only by the criterion of merit. If people have the ability to do a job they should be given the opportunity. They should not be hived away in a backwater where they become completely disillusioned and frustrated and their initiative stifled. Public servants are aware of various problems that have arisen in Departments during the years and often they can see solutions. There may be blockages due to union trouble or higher civil servants but generally there are areas in the service that can become more efficient. There are people in every Department who have ideas about this matter and they should not be ignored.

Reference has been made to the work of civil servants and their dedication to their job. From my dealings with local authority officials I know many of them spend long hours after normal closing hours in sorting out administration work and dealing with problems. It is commendable that the vast majority of public servants are dedicated people. The Minister of a Department may be away from his office, perhaps at Cabinet meetings or in the Dáil, but the public servants in his office, continue with their job in his absence. Although there could be increased efficiency in some areas, in the majority of cases the public servants do a good job when one considers the facilities at their disposal.

The health boards have been called the greatest wasters of public money and I think there is an element of truth in that. This aspect should be examined. I have raised this question in the House before. Most young girls coming out of second level education have aspirations to go into the nursing profession but for every vacancy advertised there are thousands of applications. It is not fair on the parents or the applicants to ask them to travel to various parts of the country at considerable expense and possibly to stay overnight in order to attend an interview when they have no chance of getting a job. Schools and other agencies give good advice to young people who wish to go into the nursing profession but it is impossible for any interview board to decide which young people to pick out of the thousands of applicants. That system is not satisfactory and the whole area needs to be streamlined.

In the case of a vacancy for a job in the maintenance service of health boards where block-laying, brick-laying or plastering work will be involved, there is no point in calling for interview 40 or 50 people and asking them silly questions that have no relevance to the job in question. It would be much better if there were a practical element in the interview. People might be asked to do some of the work in question and they could be judged on that. Many skilled workmen might not be able to put two words together and they might do a very bad interview but the quality of their work might be outstanding. They should be judged on their practical ability. People who are not used to attending at interviews, to dealing with the public or to answering questions formally may do themselves an injustice because the questions put to them have no relevance to the advertised job. An element of practicality should be introduced into such interviews.

I wish the Minister well in his efforts to sort out the public pay talks. He has an onerous task and our country's good depends on the relationships that he can draw up by adopting a commonsense approach to the unions and other bodies.

My first pleasure is to congratulate the Minister on his appointment and to express my faith and confidence that, for the duration of his Ministry, he will apply his own special personality and characteristics to leaving the service generally in a better form than he found it.

I am attracted to the aspirations which he outlined in his speech and I hope he will not discover en route that there is quite a step between what we desire and what is obtainable. At present the misfortunes of society are highlighted. We accept that we have drug-related problems, housing problems and other social ills. Because of the concentration on these matters, we overlook the frustration and annoyance felt by the ordinary citizens in respect of all the institutions, governmental, church or anything else, who exercise so much power over them, causing them to feel helpless. From talking to people at my clinic, I have found that that is the biggest frustration of the normal, healthy person in our community today. That has been added to considerably by the attitude of Government Departments and by a tradition which allows the spokesperson for an institution a certain anonymity and safeguards, which denies to the person who is paying for the service a right to ask for Mr. Murphy or Miss Johnston or whoever is the person appointed to deal with the service for which the taxpayer has paid.

It is arising from that hopelessness and helplessness that politicians find themselves playing the role of ombudsman. We have to do chores which people say we should not do and which we would prefer not to have to do, but the citizen looks upon politicians as the link between him or her and these frightening institutions. I am sure all Deputies accept that statement. I have to overcome the natural reluctance we all have to hard work and sit in a room for a few hours every Saturday listening to people's problems. It is not the most attractive way of passing time but, without us, the person will continue to languish in his helplessness. That is why we do it and will continue to do it until the service to which he or she is entitled is provided.

I am forever reminded of the wisdom of a proverb which says "The man who continually watches the stars will not see what is at his feet". I try never to forget what is at my feet. Deputy Boland's aspirations are examplified for me by the following quotation from his speech:

All citizens are entitled to efficiency and courtesy in their dealings with the public service but, for the more unfortunate in the community, it is doubly important that their dignity should not be affronted in such dealings.

I went out to the main street in Finglas this morning to confirm what I know has been happening, not during Deputy Boland's ministry but for several years now. Young and old people, in pursuit of their entitlements, visit the local post office which is supposed to cater for the social and family needs of that area. The room measures about 12 feet by 12 feet and this morning, the same as most mornings, especially towards the end of the month, these citizens, newly married ladies, women with babies, expectant mothers and old age pensioners are waiting to transact their business. It does not matter whether it is raining or snowing, they must stand on the street and there is no provision for toilets or any other human consideration. Yet we are talking here about the dignity of persons and reform. As a first step, we should provide a building and staff to provide the services to which people are entitled. There are many unemployed people who could do this work. I do not know why this has not been done heretofore. The Minister is not here but his able Minister of State is listening to me and I know they have similar problems in their constituencies. I hope we will remedy the position at that level because we know the abuses and indignities which we are causing to our citizens. If we do not, all the pious platitudes about reform will not fall on very sympathetic ears.

The public service has assumed monstrous proportions. I am not blaming anyone in particular for that; this is the nature of huge machines which develop large appetites for pleasing themselves rather than the people for whom they were established to serve. I worked for many years in the civil service and it was the greatest education of my life. I had one regret for the community generally, that there was such a pool of talent locked up in that service. I measured not too well with the best of the people there. They were prisoners of a tradition which required them to do as little as they could because it was an established principle when I joined the Civil Service that you could get into trouble only for what you did not do. That is worth following. The residue of that inhibits the present-day civil service. When I was a junior Minister I could see the remnants of that. I would accept of any civil servant his right to make a mistake and I would disregard any mistake made by a civil servant bearing in mind his general output. If it was the only thing he did I would proceed to do what was necessary, and I think we should have a mechanism through which such a person could be sacked. If a civil servant makes a mistake then in assessing the position we should bear in mind the overall output of that person. I am afraid that that is not the position; therefore these inhibitions and impediments exist and people who could reach the stars must stay looking at mundane matters. They must protect themselves maybe, and instead of keeping the brain active, working on something new which would be advantageous to the whole community, they think it better that such activity as delving into The Irish Times crossword should be pursued. That happened in my time and happens all along the line because of the inhibitions that tradition has created in the Civil Service.

In the matter of promotions and selecting people who might get enjoyment out of their work, it is always unwise to expect that one can generalise from particular cases. On the other hand, one is entitled to base his opinion on what he himself has experienced. I agree entirely with Deputies who have said that some mechanism should exist by which civil servants could be working at what interests them and what might bring out the best in them. When I was a clerical officer in the Department of Agriculture there was always great competition for what was known as the open EO, junior executive officer posts. Anybody who obtains a place or appointment arising from the open junior executive officer examination at that time was a man or woman of special merit. There was excitement in our Department because a certain individual, whom I knew socially, was coming to the Department as a junior executive officer from the open examination. I and other people knew him to be in his private life very interested in the arts. He had a knowledge of classical music which was unknown to the rest of us. When we were playing around with Gilbert and Sullivan and thought we were doing well he was introducing us to Tchaikovsky and Rachmaninoff, the classics. We knew that he was very interested in literature and drama — he was in his early twenties — and when the rest of us thought we were doing well by having some knowledge of Shakepeare and Yeats, having only heard of Beckett and Joyce, this man who had obtained first or second place in the open junior executive examination, had all these at his command. He arrived at the Department of Agriculture and because the system then meant no more than that the Department of Agriculture were entitled to an EO, anybody who wishes to refer back to the records of the 1950s will discover that his assignment was to the pig section in the Department. I should say also that this man was reared in Dublin city and knew nothing about and had very little interest in agriculture. The section which dealt with such matters as swine fever was in need of a junior executive officer and he was assigned to that section.

A Deputy

That is not relevant.

I am not saying that he did not have the ability to apply himself to the needs of the swine fever section. At that time throughout Dublin city people reared pigs and for that and other reasons the incidence of swine fever was greater than the Department of Agriculture would have wished. Every day that gentleman interviewed people of the city of Dublin and elsewhere who explained to him at first level the signs and symptoms which they detected of swine fever and my friend was expected to deal knowledgeably with that complaint. I give that as an example.

I know that the Civil Service cannot all the time appear to be selecting certain people for certain sections or assignments because we might find ourselves in a delicate or sensitive area where some obviously unattractive assignment had to be done and insult might be inferred by the person who might be selected for it. In respect of the assignment given to that young man, I suggest that other EOs coming from that examination would have had a knowledge of the pig industry and an interest in it, but the civil service certainly were not providing for the satisfaction of the interests of the unfortunate man they selected when they sent him to the Department of Agriculture to earn his monthly cheque. Assignment of people to positions should not be done by computer. Rather opportunities should be given to newly appointed civil servants to indicate an interest in where they could enjoy doing their work, as they all should.

I welcome the initiative taken by the Minister in trying to make more readable the forms that are produced. When I watched and listened to Deputy Kenny reading from the income tax form I noticed that, apart from other considerations, he required certain physical dexterity even to hold the form. The other side of that is that we must be careful that we do not move what is at the moment a fairly lucrative business for accountants in working on these forms for all of us, into an area that might be catered for by my nearest colleague, Deputy O'Kennedy. If a form emanates from a Department it becomes then, more or less, a legal document. It is very difficult to provide for all things in very short, simple words or statements. I am guarding my welcome for the spirit of what the Minister has indicated here by reminding the House that I do not think there is any easy way to it unless there is a general acceptance that what emanates from the Department is not to be taken as a legal document; otherwise another legal industry could be generated which would supplant the present-day accountancy industry that is reaping a harvest in the matter of the forms. I suppose politicians serve a useful purpose in that we are a talking rather than a deciphering, reading race.

It is what a person is told that matters and I would compliment the initiative of RTE, although it is not usual for me to pay too many compliments to that great organisation. On this occasion I pay compliment to people within it. Gay Byrne had a programme in the morning during which he invited representatives from different Departments to tell people about their rights. This is the most effective way of doing it. I was asked by the Minister for suggestions as to how these forms should be presented but I should like to know precisely what the form is intended to do. Does he hope to have a form which would be of general information or a form which would be expected to serve as a legal document?

A pet aversion of mine is hearing things said about politicians which I know to be untrue. I hear allegations that we fix, distort and create injustices. The Civil Service Commission are an excellent body and they issue a statement in respect of the filling of vacancies that canvassing will disqualify. So it should. On one occasion in the past I took umbrage at a communication I received from them. A lady came to me and mentioned that her daughter had applied for some position. She had heard that if a Deputy made a recommendation a person would get a job. I told her that this was not the case, that an examination takes place, marks are given and it is on these that a decision is made. She said she would like me to recommend her daughter and I replied that it might only do her harm. However, under pressure I said I would vouch for the fact that I knew her daughter to be of excellent character, that I knew her to be involved in local work and to be intelligent and that I would write a letter to that effect, hoping it would not do her any harm.

I do not lightly lend my name to anything and I did no more than say that I knew the girl, who was an applicant for a certain position, that I knew the system which obtained but had been asked by her mother to vouch for the fact that she was a young girl of exemplary character. I received in return a note from the Civil Service Commission telling me I should know that I am not allowed to canvass. I was not canvassing. There is a misconception here. There is no better person to give useful information at certain times than a responsible public representative. I would not dream of saying that a person was of exemplary character unless I had the best evidence of this. We can provide information which it is often not possible to find out in the course of an interview or by sending a note to the local Garda to find out if a person had ever been before the courts. A person can be of undesirable character without ever having appeared before the courts. I make this point in defence of all politicians who may have given information to the Civil Service Commission in respect of an applicant which would be essential, apart from academic considerations.

The Minister may say in reply that a prescribed form is sent out to nominated referees who are asked to reply to certain questions. The weakness of that system is that an undesirable person may nominate two unreliable people to make the desired replies. It would mean much less work for politicians if we were told that by associating ourselves with applications we would automatically destroy the chances of the applicants. If that information is made public, I will not mind. It should not be assumed that by giving a recommendation a politician will automatically get a person a job. I often recommend tradesmen in pursuit of employment to the Minister of State. Deputy Joe Bermingham. He will know from the fashion in which I recommend people what I think of them. If a person gets employment I do not expect him to say "Jim Tunney got me a job". I would be annoyed if he did so because I would have a whole queue of people thinking I got the job for him.

I want to re-establish the fact that there are politicians who give their word and mean it and do not give it lightly. Often they are giving a service and it should not be rejected on the technicality of "canvassing", whatever that means. How could I canvass for a person who is subjected to an examination and an interview? I am only adding to the information available to the commission. This happened to me only once in 14 years but this is the first opportunity I have had of saying in public that I resent very much on behalf of the profession of politicians that something which was no more than a statement of fact by a responsible person should have been rejected on the grounds that it was canvassing, whatever that is supposed to mean.

I have confined my remarks in the hope that by highlighting one or two matters I would get better audience. Perhaps when replying the Minister would express his concern for the people who must queue every day of the week in Finglas, however hard it may be on the legs of the pregnant ladies. It is the same during the snowy and frosty weather. We talk about our concern for the dignity of the person. I should like the Minister to indicate to me the measures he proposes to take to remedy that.

I should like to see in the civil service, in the matter of promotion, that he who earns the palm shall wear it, so that we will not have promotions for sentimental or convenience reasons. I am afraid that happens. Promotions of convenience happen when persons who do not behave in the way they should, who are getting into somebody's hair, though he might be bald, might be got rid of and the only way to get rid of them is by promotion. That happens in the service. We should avoid it and clearly establish that people will be promoted only when they deserve promotion.

I should like to make one short point, and it relates to local authorities as well as to the civil service. If there is a good officer whose first duty is counterwork, who is accustomed to meeting the people and looking after them, that clerical officer is so good that he is promoted and put away in a cubicle where he will not have any dealings with the public. Instead of sending the most junior officers out to meet the public, we should have junior executive officers and higher executive officers and principal officers, if necessary, doing that most important work. It is in jobs which deal with the public that we should have the cream, at least of our junior executive officers, so that we would not have a writing assistant, who is doing her work well, promoted and taken away to deal with the public from a job she has been doing well. There is the same need for high ranking civil servants to deal with the public as there is for them dealing with paper.

Sin é an méid atá le rá agam. Mar adúirt mé ar dtús, tá súil agam go mbeidh gach rath ar an Aire agus é ag gníomhú sa Roinn seo, agus gur fearr go mbeidh sé agus é ag fágáil na Roinne.

Like other speakers I offer my good wishes to the Minister, with whom I share a constituency. He is the right man for the job, a job which I do not think anyone would be anxious to take on. Over the years the civil service has grown to become an enormous body of people who come in for an enormous amount of criticism.

Before I deal with the general Estimates I should like to make an appeal to a section of public servants employed by Dublin County Council, the water and sewerage inspectors, who are on strike. I appeal to them to listen with humanitarian feelings to requests being made to them that where there are instances of nuisances leading to public health hazards they will consider those requests to allow maintenance work to be carried out. I refer to cases when pumps break down which allow raw sewage to get on to our beaches and into our ordinary waterways. Particularly at this time, in warm weather, it is vital that we do not have health hazards. The sea is being used by thousands of people and if the seas, the lakes and the rivers are polluted there will be a very serious health problem. Therefore, I appeal to those people — I appreciate people's right to strike and so on — that their basic humanitarian feelings will prevail. Deputy Tunney's reference to young civil servants and swine fever reminded me of a man with 900 pigs who is without water and who has no indication of when he will have water. He has the enormous problem of trying to water his 900 pigs. They are the kind of problems that come to light when this kind of strike occurs, so again I say to the inspectors to listen to the appeals of the public and of the council staff so that maintenance work can be carried on.

I imagine when the Minister went into his Department that he found many areas which needed reform. I am sure he threw his hands up to the heavens and said: "Where on earth do I start?" He has begun with the problem of forms, and has examined how best to present the forms so that people will be able to fill them in. I suggest to the Minister that he would look at the language being used in the letters sent out to local authorities and other bodies who have to administer various pieces of legislation and certain rules and regulations. As Deputy Tunney said, each form cannot be a request to answer with a simple "yes" or "no". These are complicated matters, but the idea should be to try to get forms using the simplest possible language, and to avoid the use of brackets, referring back to form 4 G/SYZ/11267. The person reading the form and trying to fill it in must get all these forms and refer to each of them. Obviously the Minister has set his mind to try to solve these things.

To the general body of the public the civil service is not the fine body of people who go into work from nine to five keeping the country running. To most people the civil service is represented by the girl who picks up the telephone and who sends them from Billy to Jack in a Department. The front people in offices are those who come in for the most criticism. The Minister should tackle those areas to ensure that the people who are dealing with the public would be able to have as much information as possible and if they do not have it that they will know exactly where to send the public for that information. This would help considerably as a public relations exercise and it would make the public service less open to criticism. Public representatives as well as the ordinary public have problems trying to get information from Departments, ringing up and 15 minutes later slamming the telephone down in frustration, not having got the information required. The ordinary member of the public goes off to the public representative's clinic and pass all their problems over to him. Public representatives have come in for enormous criticism for the amount of time they spend on constituency work.

I know the Minister realises that reform of the public service should mean easier access to information. I am sure the Minister realises the image the public service have in the minds of the people and that he is prepared to change it. I congratulate him on that and wish him the best of luck. It is not an easy job. Many of the general public are civil servants of one sort or another, whether they are in semi-State bodies or the general civil service. In the constituency I share with the Minister there is a very large percentage of civil servants. Naturally people complain if they see tightening up and trimming down or efficiency programmes being carried out which affect them. The rhetoric has to stop and the job has to be tackled.

Some forms are used much more often than others. People are refused grants and schemes which are available for the same reason. For example, it is stated clearly on most forms that you cannot start work on the installation of a sewerage system of work of that nature until the inspector has passed it. It would be interesting to know how many times people were turned down because they went ahead with the work before the inspector gave the go-ahead. These aspects should be highlighted on the forms. They should be blocked out so that people will be aware of them. Most of the public do not read these forms which are printed on both sides of the page. We must make it as simple as possible for people not to fall into these pitfalls. If that could be done without too much trouble it would be a help.

We complain in this House about bureaucracy and red tape. With each new Bill enacted here we add to the red tape. We should keep our minds on what we are doing and not introduce legislation which exacerbates the situation and adds to the problem. It is important to have suitably trained personnel dealing with the public. This should be seen as a promotion. For too long working as a receptionist or at a desk handing out forms has been seen as a not very worthwhile job or a rather lowly job. It should be treated as a very important job rather than a job which is given to people because of their appearance or because they can talk and so on. These are the people who will help to improve the image of the civil service.

Reform of local government is a matter for the Minister for the Environment but obviously the Minister for the Public Service also has a major role to play. It is long overdue and it will be coming in the next year on two I hope. Deputy Kenny referred to people with good ideas making suggestions to deal with problems on the ground. We need a mechanism to enable people who are lower down on the scale to get these ideas across to the staff who can make the changes. We meet junior civil servants who can highlight anomalies and ridiculous situations. When we tell them to go to their superiors and have changes made they say it is not worthwhile. That has to go. If there are anomalies they should be dealt with. Junior staff should be able to get their ideas across without feeling that if they complain constructively they will lose their promotion or whatever. These suggestions must be given an airing.

Local government reform is long overdue. I welcome the move by the Minister for the Environment in tandem with the Minister for the Public Service. The reserved functions of members of local authorities were discussed here extensively. They are being eroded because of the large debts of local authorities. The whole system of local authority financing — I know you are about to stop me, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle, but local authorities are part of the public service in the mind of the public——

No one knows that better than the Leas-Cheann Comhairle.

It is important that we do not separate them. Out there in the public——

It is in here I am worried about.

The general public tend to think of us together, local authorities, civil servants, councillors and public representatives. They are all "them" and the public are "us". We must try identifying the difference. The promised reforms are very welcome. Could I give you an idea of some of the reforms?

In the Department of the Environment?

No, generally. We need a re-evaluation and an assessment of all the Departments. I am sure each Department will be doing that because of the constraints on them when they are preparing the Estimates. The Department of Health should be looking at suggestions for increased payments to members of families who are prepared to look after their old people.

I have respect for ladies but the Deputy is moving from the Department of the Environment to the Department of Health.

They are part of the public service.

The Deputy is talking about recommendations in the Department of Health.

I am really talking about the whole area of reform and the perception people have of Departments.

I appreciate what the Deputy is saying, but I would prefer her to come back to the Estimate before the House.

I am at a bit of a loss because I thought the Department of Health was part of the public sector.

The activities, the programmes and the ambitions of the Department of Health would not come within the ambit of this Estimate.

I am trying to mention areas where the public sector generally is losing face. On the one hand you hear that large amounts of money are being spent on putting people into old folks' homes and on the other hand people are willing to look after them. These are the areas in which reform is needed. If the anomalies in these schemes were removed, money could be saved and would be available for better schemes. That is the point I am trying to get across and that is part of the Minister's brief. There is no point in the public saying that a scheme is not working or something else is a disgrace unless the Minister and we in this House listen to them.

The responsible Minister.

Could I ask the Minister to look at the different responsibilities Departments are given? You are probably going to stop me again but this is an area I know well.

I hope the Deputy is not moving to another Department.

I am trying to make the point that there are anomalies in the system which are giving rise to criticism. I must give examples of those anomalies. For instance, certain moneys must be provided by local authorities for matters that have nothing to do with their role, such as the funding of the supplementary welfare allowance, malicious injury claims. Those are areas that must be reformed.

The Estimate is purely and simply that of the Minister here today who is responsible, that is, the Public Service. The Deputy is moving into all the different divisions of the Public Service. The Deputy has mentioned environment, health and has now gone to supplementary welfare allowance. I hate stopping a lady talking but I am afraid she must revert to the Estimate.

The Chair should not hate it any more than trying to stop a man from talking. However, I realise it is very difficult, when talking about the public service, not to wander into all the various areas. Can one talk only about the very narrow public service? However, I will not question the Chair's ruling. I know Deputy G. Brady has an appointment to keep like myself and wants to contribute. It is very difficult for me now because a lot of the other points I wanted to make go into the other Departments.

Perhaps. The reform of the public service, of the system by which this country is run, must incorporate a mechanism whereby there can be reactions when something goes wrong. I will give an example, if I may, and then I shall finish. It relates to a recent judgment in the Supreme Court, where the Supreme Court gave in favour of an applicant——

Well, if I may just give an example.

The Deputy is now into Justice; she is really covering ground today.

Is that not in the Department of the Public Service?

The Deputy is now talking about something that is the responsibility of the Minister for Justice. We are dealing with an Estimate for the Public Service. Those are my final remarks on the Estimate.

Might I just give an example of the kind of——

The Deputy has already given it. She has already spoken about the Department of Justice.

Actually the example I was going to give had to do with the Department of the Environment, rather than the Department of Justice. My point is really that the Departments that make up the whole of the public service should be able to react when decisions are given in the courts that may have a very detrimental effect on some other section of the public service. At present things happen in the courts and perhaps the system does not allow speedy reaction, if warranted. The example I was going to give was where the Supreme Court gave in favour of somebody——

The Deputy is starting on it again.

I did not give it. This was a case in which the Supreme Court gave in favour of somebody who wanted to connect into a sewer. The Supreme Court gave in favour of that person, overthrowing another section of the civil service, a local authority development plan preparation. There has not been any reaction yet.

There will be a reaction from the Chair.

That is the example I wanted to give because these sorts of things undermine the work of other sections of the public service.

The Supreme Court would not see itself as a section of the Public Service.

No, it would not. I shall finish because obviously I am trying the patience of the Leas-Cheann Comhairle. I am not questioning the Chair's ruling but I have listened to this debate and people have wandered far and wide.

The Deputy has made a journey of it not a wander.

The public service covers a very wide geographic area. I wish the Minister every success in his task. It is not one he will be able to complete in one or two years. Indeed the time for rhetoric, of which all of us have been guilty, is over. It is now time for action, he is the man to take that action and I wish him every success.

I welcome the opportunity to speak on what I regard as one of the most important Estimates to come before this House. It is regrettable that the audience is not greater. Be that as it may, I do not share the optimism or feeling of security expressed by many speakers in relation to the smooth operation of the public service. Taking a very general view — if one is permitted to do so — this country is absolutely bedevilled by inefficiency perhaps at every level of participation in the public and private sectors. Many examples can be quoted in this House. We, as public representatives, have a firm duty today to endeavour to highlight the inadequacies within our public service on this Estimate.

I realise fully the complexity of the Minister's portfolio. I realise also that he is making a genuine effort to do something about improving the quality of service, the efficiency of service, guided and advised by very senior civil servants who, to my way of thinking, have nothing but the best interests of the country at heart. But — and here must lie the overall question mark: is it the best system that is operated? I might give one example because it arises directly within the Minister's portfolio. I tabled a very reasonable question to the Minister the other day relating to the matter of absenteeism or sickness throughout the public service of manual and clerical workers, asking how many medical certificates had been issued to public servants. The reply given was that the information sought by the Deputy was not available in the Minister's Department. It went on to say that a once-off survey conducted some years ago showed that civil service sick absence and so on showed that the average amount of public service sick leave, 13.4 days per annum, was broadly in line with the sick absence, 13.1 days per annum, in manufacturing industry at that time. I feel that information should be available. It is very important that there be direct accountability, from everyone's point of view, from that of the civil servants concerned, for the security of their jobs, and for the safety of jobs in the private sector as well. I was able to elicit that information quite readily from a local authority, Dublin Corporation, to give just one example. In that case the figures were dreadfully high. I am not suggesting for one moment that that is the case in the public service but at least it should be known. Perhaps it would serve to give those people within the public service the authority to say to their members down the line: look, something has got to be done about this because, because, because. I would like to see that type of accountability within the public service.

There is no point in our engaging in pious platitudes here today, or patting on the back about the great effort put in by our public service. We are all well aware of that and anybody who thinks otherwise is very wide of the mark. But, as parliamentarians, we must constantly seek improvement. That takes me back to the question of inefficiency. Perhaps that is due to lack of incentive within the public service. For example, I tabled a question to the Minister's Department about the appointment of an ombudsman. I had an answer from the Office of the Ceann Comhairle to say that the question was out of order. Yet the Minister kindly answered that question — I have the written reply here — saying that he was going to set up the office of ombudsman. That type of inefficiency leaves people feeling very insecure in their appreciation of who is to believe what emanating from Departments. Since 1959 the civil service has grown from 28,000, with a ratio of three to one male to female, to 60,000 now with a ratio of two to one male to female. Over the last ten years the public service has grown by 18,500. In the previous ten years between 1963 and 1973 it had grown by 11,000, and in the previous five years it had only grown by 1,700. We are being throttled by bureaucracy.

For the record, in his speech the Minister gave a figure of 300,000.

Yes, but I am speaking about a particular section. The Minister is aware of the statistic I have mentioned. I am giving the proportion of the increase. The point I wanted to make is that the rate has been doubling every decade and that is not in line with what is happening in our population.

The Deputy is dealing with the civil service and the 300,000 figure I used was for the wider public sector.

That is right. I do not want to ritualistically read out the reply, but I thank Deputy O'Kennedy for his intervention.

Bearing that in mind, this is like Parkinson's Law operating where work expands to fill the time available for its completion. We are not getting an answer to our problems because of a lack of accountability. The civil servants I have spoken to would welcome a greater degree of public accountability. I am thinking about the safeguarding of democracy. That is why I am here today contributing to this debate. I am worried about the way things are going. Our nation depends on the creation of wealth through private initiative to support the entire bureaucratic system that administers that wealth for the betterment of the country. That is the simple formula for running this country. In other words, if wealth is not created we will not have a public service or any money to redistribute.

What has happened to our little country, Ireland Incorporated Limited as it has been referred to, is that the majority shareholding is now taken up by this bureaucratic management. The percentage is inching towards 55 per cent or 56 per cent of all the money generated here. The comparable figure in America is 22 per cent. This means the country is being run by bureaucracy and not as it should by parliamentarians and by a greater input by private enterprise. I tried to make that point very forcefully during the debate on the Finance Bill and again on this debate.

I realise that the Minister is making an effort to bring in some of the controls I would like, but in his speech he spoke about £6.6 million and 76 per cent to cover staff administration costs and so on. These are alarmingly high figures. However, two figures slipped through without any critical examination being made — one was £36 million for superannuation, pensions and so on, to be buttressed by a further £60 million, making a total of £96 million. Can this nation afford that kind of expenditure? I am not for a moment criticising the Minister personally. We do not even value our parliamentarians? What will happen to our democracy if we do not put a real value on the role of a TD or a Senator? That is a critically important part of the democratic process.

During the week I tabled a parliamentary question to the Minister in anticipation of this debate. I asked him in terms of salary in the public service what grade compares with a TD or a Senator. The Minister gave the answer quite clearly, ‘the TD ranks with the lower grade of an assistant principal'. These are the facts. I am not making them up. I do not know with what grade a Senator compares — perhaps a clerical officer? The Minister's reply is couched in apologetic terms. He said that had we taken our increases perhaps we would be in the higher grade of principal officer. That is not good enough. We should not govern by fear of what the public will say. If the Minister for the Public Service awards a proper salary structure to a TD or a Senator no one will think any less of him. In fact, he might even gain the respect of the nation instead of allowing the situation to develop where we are undervaluing ourselves.

In the context of the figure of £96 million for pensions and superannuation schemes within the public service, how do public representatives rate there? The Minister knows that the pension scheme designed for Members of this House is totally out of line with the present situation, but that is not a reason to hang his head. There is a happy situation prevailing in the public service because pensions are index-linked to the cost of living. That is a very desirable and excellent social aim which does not apply to Members of the Oireachtas, unless they have served 12 years in this House, having paid perhaps 6 per cent of their salaries. That is very wrong and the Minister should do something about it. He has the opportunity at his disposal, irrespective of how he may feel about the public reaction. People to whom I have spoken have not given me the impression that they are alarmed at a TD's salary, by comparison with that of an oil tanker driver, for example.

Superannuation and pension schemes apply to the civil service and why should they not apply to Members of the Oireachtas? I am sure that the civil servants will agree that they are paid an equitable rate of travelling expenses, but this does not apply to the Houses of the Oireachtas, which is also wrong. The Minister should correct that and not be intimidated by a feared public reaction.

In England the enormous cost of index-linked pensions has been gone into. These cannot be purchased by those in the private sector, as the Minister probably realises. No insurance company can build in an inflation factor, yet it is built in to the civil service conditions. Socially, that is very desirable. The result of the survey on English index-linked pensions was that they were found desirable and the advice was given that the index-linked proofing of pensions should be nationwide, not selective. That is critically important for anyone working in the private sector, whether as an engineer, a journalist or in any other profession. Why should it be that the public service have the protection of inflationproof pensions when the rest of the country have not? I have not said that that is not desirable; it is highly desirable and the Minister's Department should examine the question of costing a pension plan for the entire country. It is not right to provide pensions of this kind if they are not provided in the private sector, and members of the civil service agree with me. It is in everyone's interest that our nation prosper and develop, but not in a lopsided manner.

Whether we like it or not, the public perception of the efficiency of the public service is not good, but there are many things which the Minister can do. First, he should conduct a pilot work study assessment of the efficiency of a particular section within the Department. That could not but be for the good of the service. This is a constructive suggestion. The infrastructure is there and it would not cost much money. This would give us an efficiency rating, so that we would know where we stand. That protects the jobs of the civil servants as well as giving the public confidence.

In the private sector, efficiency can be measured. Anyone working in a construction or manufacturing firm can measure efficiency. It is one of the factors so necessary to the workings of any company. The Minister should conduct such a survey, which can be done initially under a pilot scheme.

That our buildings within the public service are spread out all over Dublin is crazy and results in nothing but inefficiency. Even our local authority, Dublin Corporation, will have all their services under one roof within the new civic offices. To have to run from one Department to another in various parts of the city is an in-built recipe for inefficiency, which must be tackled immediately. The Minister might question the cost, but that is running away from the issue. If we made ourselves more efficient, enormous cost savings would follow. If any service, particularly within the Minister's own Department, is made 10 per cent more efficient, think of the saving in terms of public expenditure.

The Minister is very keen on establishing the office of ombudsman. This is an excellent idea. It is important to realise, as has been mentioned by my colleague, Deputy Gene Fitzgerald, that this is not just another bureacratic layer. This, also, should commence with a pilot scheme, rather than a permanent establishment. It might turn out to be another element of Parkinson's Law in operation. The ombudsman was established under Swedish legislation in 1809, in Denmark in 1954, in England in 1967 and in Northern Ireland in 1969. It is important, before establishing the position of ombudsman, that the Minister examine how efficiently it is working in these countries. Would the Minister not agree that this is important? We are speaking about the office of ombudsman.

I presume that the Minister will answer the Deputy at the conclusion.

I was just emphasising my point. If it is not working well or is clogging up the system even more, then there will be more inefficiency. We will have to have defined areas of responsibility for this office. There is a very high level of efficiency in Sweden and Denmark, compared with Ireland, even from a manufacturing point of view. Efficiency has improved there since the establishment of this office. One cannot establish that office of ombudsman just to process complaints. It will only work if one puts one's own house in order first, and it can then be a very useful vehicle. However, it could get lost and herein lies the danger, despite the Minister's well-founded intentions. I would give the Minister a word of caution, that he offer this out on a trial basis.

The charging of fees for job applications was a dreadful mistake. I was delighted that the Minister retrieved that situation. It was the last straw and in the minds of the public, bureaucracy had taken over completely. The Minister has a responsibility to give a great lead in the public service. This is the most important Estimate to come before the House. Your speech was excellent except that you failed to tell us when you will take the action you talked about and when you will endeavour to make the public service more efficient.

Will the Deputy speak in the third person, please?

I assure you, a Cheann Comhairle, that all my remarks are addressed through you at all times. I am trying to impress on the Minister that in the public mind the image of the public service is not at all good. This is part of the concern shared by all of us in relation to democracy being under a direct threat. The other evening I listened to an overseas programme which dealt with the question of teetering democracy in the Republic of Ireland. It was harrowing that outside commentators would think in the way indicated in that programme. However, my duty here today is to talk about how the system might be made to work more efficiently. At the moment the situation is desperate. I do not think the public service rates any less in description than that and that is why I was disillusioned at not being able to get information about absenteeism from the public service. In any other business if people are out of work, the relevant statistics would be expected to be available and in this instance, too, they should be available to the Minister. This is the type of information that the public need.

In our major local authority, Dublin Corporation, the figures in respect of absenteeism were frightening. In one year in that body 5,000 employees between them lost 320 years in sick pay and to those people 21,000 medical certificates were issued. I am not saying that a similar situation prevails in the public service but the figures I have quoted are daunting. We are not protecting anyone's job if we fail as parliamentarians to alert the public to what is happening. The people who will thank us most for making this information known are the civil servants because they are anxious that their jobs be protected. Any of us who has had the opportunity of serving in any Government portfolio will realise the tremendous work effort involved in something of this sort, but has the Minister information, for example, as to the number of civil servants who were dismissed from their jobs in the past ten years? We all know that there is not perfection in every walk of life. If there is reason to dismiss someone, he should be dismissed. This happens all the time in the private sector. If we are to have a quality service and if we are to improve efficiency, then we must have regard to the points I am making because otherwise we will create a mammoth bureaucracy that will devour us, that will devour private enterprise and that will kill the spirit of initiative. The difficulty will not arise because of the problems of filling in forms but because the country will become one in which people will not be afforded the opportunity of making the effort to improve their lot and that of their families.

Unfortunately, I shall not be in the House to hear the Minister's reply but I will be studying closely what he has to say. I am asking for a dramatic improvement in terms of efficiency in the public service. I am anxious that the Minister outline the steps he is prepared to take, whether by way of flexi-time hours or, as I have suggested, working to a work study programme. I am requesting that in his reply the Minister give commitments in respect of the areas I have outlined. It is regrettable that there is no representative here either from Labour or from The Worker's Party for what is in effect the Estimate relating to the direct running of the country.

As I have said, the majority shares in the country are held, not by parliamentarians or by private enterprise but by bureaucracy. The Minister has the most important portfolio in that regard, I appeal to him in the national interest to give a direct account of the steps he is about to take and I wish him well in his endeavours.

This is a unique opportunity in that it is the first time we have had an Estimate introduced by a full-time Minister for the Public Service. To that extent I welcome the opportunity of contributing to the debate.

I hope the appointment of the Minister will ensure that the role of the public sector in the economy will be analysed effectively in terms of the limitations on that role and the obligations on the public sector to create conditions in which the private sector, who are the motor of the economy, will not alone not be stifled but will be encouraged and helped to bring about the economic well-being of the country.

I have one mild word of criticism of the Minister's speech and that is that there is no indication in it of any philosophy on his part in relation to the role of the public service generally. This is an effective role and one that has been great from time to time in stimulating economic development. The Minister has failed to outline the limitations on and the expectations of the public service and also the disciplines that apply to the public sector just as there are disciplines applying to the private sector, and he failed in particular to talk of the amount of the public expenditure programme that has been applied to the public service in recent years. Perhaps the Minister shied away from those areas for fear of straying into areas that might be regarded as being the responsibility of other Ministers, but now that we have a Member of the Cabinet engaged fulltime as Minister for the Public Service, that Minister in the course of the discharge of his office should be able to define clearly the role of the public service and particularly how that role might be limited in its definition. All of us have come to expect too much from the public service in terms of public expenditure and of how the public service can make an effective contribution to the wellbeing of the nation. I hope the appointment of a full-time Minister for the Public Service is not an indication that the public service will continue to grow. If that was the case and if we had a growth area which involved a special responsibility for a Minister, this side of the House would be opposed to that development. I would see the appointing of the Minister as, if anything, having the aim of limiting the growth of the public service. I hope the Minister in discharging his obligations will set that as a target and ensure that the public service does not grow to the point where we will have an imbalance of the kind Deputy Brady mentioned. The same degree of efficiency, motivation and productivity must apply in the public service as in the private sector. If we do not have a healthy private sector and a climate within which the private sector will pull us through this difficulty, the public service is of no consequence. Only when the public sector creates such a climate for the private sector will they be fulfilling their role.

In 1981 the current estimate was for £3,280 million. Two years later the figure is £5,430 million. There is a growth there within which public sector pay forms a huge proportion of at least 60 per cent. We must not allow the growth of the public service to continue. No other enterprise could justify a growth in expenditure of that nature.

There were great periods when the public service played a major role in national economic development. Perhaps the period in which they played the greatest role pre-dated the establishment of the Department of the Public Service. That is not to imply that the Department has become a burden on national development. Far from it. People were aware that the public service and, in particular, the Departments of Finance, Industry, Agriculture and Education were at the centre of economic development during that period of growth. That was not just the era of great achievement in the State but also the era which realised the contribution the public service could make to national development. It was perhaps a skimpy body in terms of personnel. In 1959, the great era of the public service which saw many magnificent public servants who will long be remembered for their contributions, there were 28,000 people in the non-industrial civil service. We now have well over 60,000. In the total public service covering the whole area from local authorities to health boards we had 300,000 people employed three years ago. The Minister will have my support in maintaining control over this growth and reducing the number of public servants.

There are considerably fewer people employed in manufacturing industry. According to a recent NESC report job losses in manufacturing industry in the foreseeable future will continue at the rate of 9,000 to 10,000 per annum. We can see the imbalance immediately. It costs money to maintain the public service, and who pays for this? It is the private sector. Every employee must pay. The level of tax has grown exactly commensurate with the level of public expenditure by something of the order of 60 per cent in two years. What economy could possibly sustain that kind of growth? I know the Minister will face many problem but he has the awesome task of containing that growth vis-à-vis the private sector. If we do not succeed in doing that, the Department of the Public Service will have very little relevance in terms of national development.

The Minister will have our support in the course of the difficult pay negotiations. Any Government facing this problem must have that support. It is not just a question of security of employment but because the economy cannot afford any more than the Government are proposing at this stage. If the figure is to be higher it will be sucked up from the private sector and the economy generally. We have reached a point where we cannot have an index of growth in public sector remuneration of the kind we have seen. The pattern started last year and maintained this year must be clearly supported by all. The Government will have our support. I know they will be delicate negotiations, particularly since we do not have a national wage agreement.

One of the problems which arises — and I say this from my experience as Minister for Finance — is that during the great era of growth to which I have just referred in the sixties we were all looking for our proportionate share of the increasing wealth in Ireland. Everybody had to get their portion of the increased cake. In the public service that was achieved through a system of relativities, linkages and differentials. If sector A got an increase the executive officer — which was the pivotal grade — was related to a teacher so far as I recall.

The two of them are strange relations, it might seem, but they are relations. In fact they are blood brothers in terms of public sector remuneration. There is also a blood relationship between the psychiatric nurses and prison officers. When one gets an increase the other gets an increase also. This permeates right through the public sector. That may have had some relevance in earlier times when there was more to share. Now we have to face the reality that these relativities, linkages and differentials must be looked at.

The Minister is having discussions about that. It seems that many of these relativities, linkages and differentials are not appropriate to our current economic climate and do not apply in the private sector. If they did, many companies would find themselves out of business. It is as simple as that. Some of them have gone out of business anyway. Many others would be out of business if they had to maintain that kind of inbuilt guarantee which is public sector pay.

The reform of the public service — and perhaps one should not use the word "reform" because it is an emotive word; the renewal of the public service, and we all need renewal from time to time — is not just a matter for the Department of the Public Service. If I have a reservation about the Department in this sense, it is that the implication may be that, because the Department are there, no other Department have to ensure that they effect new and efficient programmes such as programme budgetting, that they have not got an obligation to ensure that every penny they spend is spent efectively.

In Departments like the Departments of Health, Education and Social Welfare, is anyone planning their own efficiency? Is it all to be left to the Department of the Public Service? The Departments of Health, Education and Social Welfare, who spend billions of pounds, must be capable of introducing more cost efficient administration schemes and ensuring that every penny of the taxpayer's money achieves its target in the quickest and most efficient way.

I hope there is a clear awareness within all Departments that the very existence of the Department of the Public Service does not mean they are the only Department who should have new ideas and new concepts to ensure efficiency in the public service. If that were the case it would take the responsibility from other big spending Departments to do what they are obliged to do. One must be apprehensive, to say the least, that an administrative, or supervisory Department such as the Department of the Public Service can grow with the expansion of the public service generally. The Estimates for this Department indicate growth elsewhere. Almost all of that Estimate — 75 per cent — goes on remuneration.

The more the Department of the Public Service can encourage others to do the job without requiring them to intervene the better that Department will be doing its job. The more that Department ensures it creates an awareness in each Department of its responsibility to make the Department of the Public Service redundant in time, the better it will do its job. The more it can stimulate a sense of obligation in other Departments to plan, particularly programme budgeting of a type that has not developed, and develop, the better it will be for each Department. We are talking about stimulation and satisfaction on the part of all who are involved in the public service. One matter for concern is the fact that each year the Estimates sent to the Department of Finance are based on the previous year's figure plus an inflation index for increase in the coming year. With that traditional approach is it any wonder that we have seen a growth from £3,218,000 million over the last two years to more than £5 billion this year? Each Department should be obliged to present its plan well in advance, its target areas and priorities and be made to justify every penny. Each Department should be made to do that not necessarily under the supervision of the Department of the Public Service, although that can be a great incentive to ensure it is done. I hope the Department of the Public Service get the message to other Departments that the aspect of each Department's responsibility is a fundamental responsibility and not one that can be overlooked by any other Department because of the role and responsibility of the Department of the Public Service.

There have been comments today about the relevance of the public service to citizens. There is another role aside from the one I mentioned: the primary role of creating the climate in which the private sector will develop and guarantee the development of our economy, and that is its availability to the citizens it serves. In every sense it is a public service. One of the developments that has taken place in recent years with the growth of the public service has been its concentration to a considerable extent in Dublin. We all recognise that Dublin is not Ireland, and God forbid it will ever emerge that way. However, Dublin has grown to such a point that the public service Departments have grown with it. If we want those Departments relevant to the public around the country and if we want to use the public service as an instrument of reasonable economic policy, then we should do all we can to promote what the Government have cancelled: a decentralisation programme of the public service. One decision the Government took which I cannot understand in terms of economic concept, regional economic development or an awareness of what it means to get a balanced development to the economy, was the cancelling of the public service decentralisation programme established by Fianna Fáil. The growth of the public service in Dublin has led to congestion in Dublin city. More offices have been erected and not all of them, unfortunately, are occupied. Imagine the contribution a public service decentralisation programme such as that planned by Fianna Fáil could make to balanced regional economic development, whether in Limerick, Cork, Tralee or Donegal. Surely a movement of the public service closer to our people is in line with the philosophy of any Government concerned about a balanced development of the economy? What has happened? In order to save a few pounds in the capital programme this year — something of the order of £15 million or less — the Government decided to cancel, not postpone or review, the decentralisation programme. Earlier Deputy Kenny told us of the impact decentralisation had on Castlebar. It had a major impact on that town and it also had a major impact on Athlone and elsewhere. The Government decided that these regional programmes should be put aside. We will see a growth in Dublin, office space unoccupied and more office space leased at enormous cost. Whatever about the first year or the second year — when I acknowledge space would cost more — in the third, fourth, fifth and subsequent years a decentralisation programme would not only cost less but would make a significant contribution. I am quite sure it would give a more balanced life in rural Ireland than many of our public servants are able to enjoy in this congested city. We have accommodation which is not being occupied, properly occupied or fully occupied. If the private sector were in that situation they would go bankrupt.

There are rooms unoccupied in public service buildings in Dublin at this moment. I am not talking about one Department but about a whole range of Departments. There are rooms in Department buildings, magnificent conference rooms, which might be used once a week, once a month or less frequently. The cost of these to the taxpayer is enormous. If we are going to build conference rooms or other such rooms we must justify their use. Otherwise we should lease them out to the private sector to use them. There is no justification for taxpayers' money being spent on accommodation which is not being used. If the private sector engaged in that kind of building programme many of them would be in greater difficulty than they are at the moment.

The question of public service confidentiality is of considerable importance. I yield to nobody in this House in my respect for the public service. I hope what I have said is not seen as a criticism because the motivation must be a respect for what has always been a great public service. I enjoyed the benefit of the expert advice, assistance and commitment of public servants in relation to the various ministerial roles I have had. I have seen the degree of commitment which those public servants have. I am concerned, because of that, about some recent developments. One of the most important things is public service confidentiality, the official Secrets Act and all that go with it. I recall one occasion, at the end of my period as Minister for Finance, asking the secretary of my Department if I could have an opportunity of expressing thanks to every public servant involved in the preparation of my budget statement. I was amazed when up to 50 people trooped into my office the following day. I was not amazed that so many people were involved, because one could understand there would be so many involved from typists right up to the top. I was really impressed that not even one word of that budget statement, in line with other budget statements over the years, got out to the press in advance. That is the kind of public service we have come to respect and take for granted.

It is essential for the proper functioning of our democracy that that kind of commitment, service and loyalty is retained. I regret to say that in recent times we have seen other examples. It must be a function of the Department of the Public Service to ensure that the standard of confidentiality of public servants is maintained. We have seen documents emerge in the last year or two appearing in certain newspaper columns here and there. We have heard representatives of the public service unions speaking about what should happen. There is an apprehension, no matter what Government are in power, that somewhere along the line someone will let out this information. That is of very serious concern as much to the public service as it is to the nation generally. It is the public service who have built up that tradition of confidentiality, trust and impartiality. I hope the trends we have seen in recent times will not be maintained and that we will hear much less from sources within the public service. I have to acknowledge that political elements in Governments may, in a sense, unwillingly encourage this because we use that nice bland term — the Coalition Government seem to be experts in this area —"sources close to the Government". which seems to mean such a lot. What does it mean?

There was a time when the Government spoke through a Minister, and public servants did not speak unless they were clearly authorised to do so. What does "a source close to the Government" mean? I do not believe it means the traditional public servants. I want to exonerate them from that. It is possibly those others who have come in as politician representatives. That trend has, regrettably, given rise to the impression that the confidentiality that is such an important part of the tradition of the public service is no longer there. We even have public relations officers for the public services. I believe the Minister in the House at the moment actually has a public relations team who are not public servants. What is their role in relation to the functions of the Department of the Public Service? How much are they subject to the rules of confidentiality, official secrets or anything else? How will they be able to discharge their role in the impartial way that the public service officials do? We must look very carefully at those matters to ensure that the basic principles on which the public service has been developed, are not undermined.

There are two other matters I should like to refer to. I know the Minister has been very diligent in the first matter I want to speak about. He is making a special effort, because he has been in communication with every Deputy on more than one occasion, to find out our views in relation to forms, communications and their relevance to the public generally. I hope I have the opportunity of replying to that communication but in the meantime I would like to suggest one thing to him. He should commend, through his Department, all Departments to ensure that the communication the public official has with each citizen is in a form, manner and style that he would like to receive himself as a citizen.

The communication should be in a reasonable, normal way and show the degree of personal interest or concern for the citizen's query, that it will not be cloaked in administrative jargon of a kind that our citizens do not understand. Such communications do not need to have the old format: "I am desired by the Minister to . . . . . .", using the kind of cliché words that appear in correspondence from the public service. Is there any reason why a public service, who have among their staff some of the most gifted writers — some of them are professional writers who have enhanced our literature at various levels — should be confined to using the awful jargon which is usually put in letters from various Departments.

I know there is a standard form and Deputies also use it. When we are talking of conveying information to a citizen, even if we have to convey bad news, would it not be better to hear something like: "I know you are concerned about your case and I am very sorry that in the circumstances I cannot give you better news"? It would be better to send out a communication similar to that. The letter could continue: "because I appreciate the importance to you of your particular problem". It is amazing the impact that would have on the citizen. We get instead the standard form that encourages the public servant just to trot out the clichés. In the course of his review of communications within his Department and other Departments, the Minister should ask people in relation to their communications by letter and by telephone — although I have to say that the standard of courtesy that public representatives get is exceptionally good, but it is the citizen that we are directly concerned about here — to behave as if they were actually earning their living on the bottom rung of the ladder in the private sector. They should give exactly the same kind of service they would expect to get in the private sector.

When we finish this afternoon we will return to our constituencies and we will have meetings this evening. I am sure this applies to the Minister also. We will be available to the public tomorrow and we will be lucky to get a few hours free on Sunday. This is an example of the availability of public representatives so far as their constituents are concerned. A Deputy does not start work at 9 a.m. and finish at 5 p.m. although I appreciate that many public servants also work additional hours. Public servants should be conscious of their obligation to deal with people with courtesy, sensitivity and kindness, particularly when they are dealing with old people. Many old people are intimidated by what they regard as an administrative empire that they cannot understand. I regard it as an important part of a Deputy's work to unravel many complex matters for old people and to advise them how to cope with the public service. I think Deputies do valuable work in this area and give a certain amount of reassurance to their constituents. I hope that public servants will be able to win the trust of the people in the same way.

Deputies also have responsibilities. When we help our constituents with their problems we should not give the impression that what we get for them is not theirs by right. We should not pretend that they get their entitlements only by our intercession. To do that is an offence to the citizen.

As we wait to speak in debates in this House I am sure many of us think we would be better employed in our offices making phone calls on behalf of our constituents or writing to them. I remember a distinguished predecessor of the Chair spending a long time in this House during the debates on the Succession Bill but perhaps he did not spend enough time on the telephone or dealing with letters to the Departments. He did a great service for the nation but at the next election he was defeated. I will not say any more than that but I recall others who came afterwards and who have not been noted for their contributions in this House. Nevertheless, they have been re-elected on many occasions. We must never give the public the impression that they will not get their rights if we do not intercede on their behalf. That is an offence to their dignity.

I know the Minister is conscious of his obligation to serve the citizens of this country. Perhaps the introduction of the ombudsman or something similar would allow public representatives to get back to this House where they belong. If he does this he will have my full support. If people can see that they will get their due entitlements as of right we will be able to do our own job in this House legislating to ensure that they get those rights quickly and efficiently.

I shall start where Deputy O'Kennedy left off, that is, to explain the role of the public representative. As I see it, it is to act as a buffer between the people and the bureaucrats. Of late I have detected a certain resentment on the part of certain people in sections of the public service against what is termed political interference, even to the extent of resenting parliamentary questions. The day I can no longer question Ministers or civil servants on behalf of my constituents will be the day they need me no longer. I know that view is not held generally throughout the public service but one or two individuals, particularly on the union side who represent some public servants have expressed that opinion. Some months ago a statement was made in this matter which annoyed me. If public representatives are not given freedom of access to the public service there is no point in asking anyone to vote for us. We are here to represent the people, to act as a buffer between them and the bureaucrats. I have never claimed that I got anyone anything to which he was not entitled. All I ever claimed was that I could speed up the process by which people could get their entitlements.

The Minister might look at the number of questions for written reply to certain Departments. I have found that putting down a question for written reply is the only way I can get a quick and more accurate answer. I have had occasion in the past to write to the relevant Department with regard to telephones. I would get a reply from the Department signed by the Secretary to the Minister, thanking me for my representations, stating that inquiries were being made and that I would be given the information as soon as it was to hand. Of course, that was the last I heard: there was no follow-up to my query. At least a parliamentary question on the matter will elicit a reply stating that a telephone will be available within a year, six months or whatever the period.

I wish the Minister good luck in his wage negotiations. I hope there will be a successful conclusion to them and that the unions who are negotiating on behalf of the officials appreciate our serious financial situation. In return for job security I hope they will keep their demands moderate.

It is interesting to note that when recruitment to the public service was accelerated between 1977 and 1981 it was believed that by taking people off the dole queues and giving them employment at least they would be paying tax and that some return would go to the Exchequer. What went wrong was the fact that national wage agreements were far too high and were more than the Exchequer could afford. Everyone admits that people are taxed to the limit. Every time we talk about a 1 per cent or 2 per cent increase we are talking in terms of millions of pounds of further taxation. Every time taxation is increased, a factory closes down, more people are thrown on to the dole queue and the national cake gets smaller. I urge members of the public service, while trying to get a reasonable increase, to ask their union representatives not to break up the structures of society by demanding too much. The public service are paid out of taxation and I have no doubt that they do a good job. However, if wage agreements in the past had been kept at a more moderate level we would not have the tremendous burden on the taxpayer today.

Everyone is aware that TDs did not avail of the 13 per cent national wage agreement. Unfortunately, I was not consulted — I would have been opposed to being deprived of the rise which everybody else was receiving. Very often there are letters in the newspapers asking why TDs do not give up this, that or the other. They gave up this rise and I think this is not appreciated by the public. Someone wrote in recently and said that each TD should hand over £1,000 of their allowance towards something else. They have contributed more than £1,000 by foregoing the last national wage increase. I appeal to the Minister to introduce, as soon as possible, legislation which would allow Deputies to receive increases immediately and not have to wait 21 days after they are laid before the House, as is the case at present. People think we are getting two increases because of the long delay between the announcement and the award. In many cases we have been getting our national wage increases nearly a year after everybody else, but of course this went unnoticed by the public. All parties would like to see this legislation introduced and I have no doubt it would be nodded through.

As a city TD I have many expenses within my constituency and I do not know how rural TDs manage to cope on theirs. The Department of the Public Service are well aware that representations have been made in regard to this; and I know it is a problem for the Minister, who is trying to cut down expenses. It is another sacrifice which has been made by TDs which has largely gone unnoticed. Of course, many of us would be TDs, if elected, even if we were not paid for the work because we get fulfilment from what we do; but we should not be pauperised for having an idealistic outlook.

The Minister referred to closing down the hatch services. I welcome this move because the public must be treated with greater dignity. In the past in income tax offices there was a queue of people waiting to transact their business and very often they would have to discuss financial matters through a hatch within the hearing of other people.

The Minister referred to the Civil Service Commission and that a TD cannot interfere with that body. I know this is true, because some years ago a young woman constituent told me she had been interviewed for a position in the Prison Service and six weeks later had a medical examination. She naturally assumed, having been sent for a medical, that she had passed the interview, but within a few weeks she was notified that she had failed the interview. I asked the Civil Service Commission why public money was spent on medically examining a person who had failed the interview. I received a very curt letter back more or less telling me to mind my own business. Perhaps the Minister could establish if medical examinations are being carried out on people who have failed interviews. There might be a saving in that area. As I recall, the young lady in question was a magnificent specimen of womanhood.

I should like the Minister to have freedom to bring in people from outside the public service from time to time to examine procedures, especially paperwork. I was very pleased to receive the Minister's letter asking for my ideas on simplifying forms which people had to complete. Dublin TDs do not get as many forms to fill up as their rural counterparts, so I have not had constituents coming to me about this problem. I hope the Minister will get good feedback from the Members of this House. Perhaps he could go further and send out samples of forms which he thinks could be simplified. I remember being laughed at some years ago when I put down a motion in Dublin Corporation that there should be an examination of the amount of paper used on circulars which are never read. When I worked in Marks & Spencers in England in the late fifties and sixties they had a good house-keeping drive when they went through forms and asked if they really needed them. In the course of one year they threw out a staggering number of forms, weighing I do not know how many tons. Because of the high cost of printing and paper we should have a look at this, particularly now when computers are being updated all the time. I believe there could be big savings in this area.

I did not intend to speak at any great length. I made certain criticisms at the beginning of my contribution in interpreting that some people resented the interference of TDs, which is an essential part of a democratic system. At the same time I want to pay tribute to the vast majority in the public service who give good value to the people. It is a great thing for the stability of democracy that we have a first class public service. We should continue to be self-critical and look at our own systems as in this House we are looking at our system in the interest of Dáil reform. We are very anxious to co-operate and work on that and we hope to get the same co-operation in regard to the public service, so that at the end everyone will have a better standard of living.

I wish the Minister luck in his pay negotiations. I hope that moderation will rule at the end of the day.

I want to put on record my appreciation of the manner in which the various speakers who have contributed to this debate have approached the topic and in particular how much I and the Government appreciate the remarks made by Deputy O'Kennedy and Deputy Briscoe in support of the Government's desire to achieve a moderate pay settlement in the context of the cost of public service pay. The support indicated by the Opposition to the approach of the Government is very helpful and to be welcomed. As I mentioned towards the end of my opening remarks this morning, I hope that the public service pay negotiations will resume shortly and that, with goodwill and an appreciation of the situation on all sides, it will be possible for us to achieve the sort of level of pay agreement that Deputy Briscoe and Deputy O'Kennedy referred to.

An indication of the importance which the Government place on the area of the public service, and in particular public service reform, is that this is the first day on which a full day has been devoted to the discussion of the Estimate of any Department in the course of this year. That indicates the anxiety of the Government that as much time as possible would be given to Members of the House to make their contributions. We have heard a variety of interesting and, in some respects, stimulating speeches and a number of the suggestions made on all sides of the House were interesting and helpful. I assure the Deputies that those suggestions will be taken on board by me in the Government's approach towards achieving more efficiency in the public service.

It is also fair to say, as Deputy Briscoe said, that in the main those who serve within the public service are very dedicated and committed people. To some extent, especially in recent times, there has been a great amount of unfair criticism and maligning of the public service and its image. All large organisations are in the public's perception probably only as good as their weakest link; and in an organisation employing as at present the non-industrial civil service — almost exactly 60,000, there will be and are weak links. But their colleagues working beside them, and often giving long hours far beyond what is officially expected from them, are, to use a colloquial expression, tarred with the same brush. As well as ensuring that the service operates as efficiently as possible, part of my job is to defend the public service and public servants from unfair criticism. I have done that several times in recent months and intend to do so whenever I hear criticism meted out unfairly.

Part of the unfair criticism is generated probably because of the system that operates, many aspects of which were referred to by Deputies in the House during the day. That system in some respects is archaic or outmoded in its approach to the question of providing public service. I agree entirely with those Deputies who have said that one of the frustrations experienced by the general public is the anonimity of the service. When a person endeavours to make a query personally in a public office, over the telephone or by letter the tradition has been that the civil servants involved do not give their names or rank and if the person making the query has to return to the task there is no specific person or officer to ask for. I gather that some effort was made to change that some time ago but without a great deal of success. My intention is to urge, not just on Departments within the civil service but also upon my colleague Ministers and officeholders, that they take a personal interest in ensuring that officials who deal with the general public give their own names and indicate their areas of responsibility. That would be helpful in providing an element of job satisfaction to the civil servant as well as to the member of the public involved. It was rather a charade in the past for civil servants to be told that they should not give their names when dealing with the public when the State Directory is published every year and the names and grades of officials in each Department are published therein. The volume does not have wide circulation and probably the vast majority of the general public have never heard of it, but we need to approach service to the public on a realistic basis. If people can contact an individual with a problem, they feel they are dealing with a person rather than an anonymous civil service. I hope that in that small way we will bring about an improvement in the public perception of the civil and public service.

My stated aim of improving public offices, abolishing the hatch and endeavouring to see that people can have their business dealt with with a degree of confidentiality has received a great deal of debate. The straitened circumstances of the less fortunate should not mean that their sense of dignity is damaged through their attending public offices. Every member of the general public has the right to expect courtesy, efficiency and confidentiality when conducting business with any arm of Government. My honest desire is that we improve that situation considerably. For that reason also I have taken on the task of endeavouring to have reviewed the myriad of official forms that exist in the world of the public service. The total numbers have not been assessed but the estimation is that some 10,000 different forms are produced by public Departments and available to the general public for use in one way or another.

I started to review them once in the Department of Social Welfare.

Deputy Haughey has put a query in my mind about the task. I do not know whether he is asking me to emulate the rest of his career after that.

We simplified quite a few of the forms.

I accept that some work has been done in the area the Deputy has mentioned. I recall the time he put that task in hand. To the best of my recollection I was acting as shadow Minister for the Departments of Health and Social Welfare at the time. I accept that there was an improvement in that area and there have been limited improvements in a number of other areas also. I took an opportunity some time ago to criticise rather vehemently the forms available for motor taxation purposes and I subsequently discovered that prior to my remarks the forms had been amended and made much simpler.

A varying level of importance is placed upon the review of forms and their clarity and simplicity. I have urged upon my colleagues in Government that they should take an interest in this matter and since then there has been much greater attention paid to improving the forms available to the public. I am certain that up to one-third of all forms are unnecessary and obsolete. Such things as the abolition of hatches, the improvement of public offices and the elimination of unnecessary forms, together with the clarifying of those which are necessary, would help greatly to improve the general image of the public service, as well as being of benefit to the public. In respect of one form queries had to be made because questions were not properly answered in 70 per cent of the forms. This should have identified to the officers concerned that there were basic flaws within the form.

Much has been said in relation to the training of staff who meet the general public. There is a quirk in our system in that in the main it is the most junior staff, and consequently those who know least about the operations of their Departments, who meet the general public. The standard of the senior civil service is particularly high and if the senior management officers were to meet the public they would come away feeling that their queries had been comprehensively dealt with. Unfortunately that is not the way the system works and we must pay particular attention to the officers who deal with the public. There are training courses available for them but the level of interest in sending officials on these courses varies from Department to Department.

Some time ago I invited Members of this House to give me their views about official forms which they fill in on behalf of their constituents. It is a cod that so much time of Deputies, especially in rural areas, is taken up by filling forms. It ought to be a basic prerequisite that a form is simple enough to be filled by anyone who needs it. It is ridiculous that Deputies and members of local authorities should have to spend so much of their time filling forms which could be completed by the applicants themselves. As Deputy O'Kennedy eloquently pointed out, once that happens people get the idea that the politician who fills out the form will be involved in procuring whatever is sought. This has placed an enormous strain on public representatives and has diminished their image to a certain extent. There may be suggestions from time to time that politicians can get things for people to which they are not really entitled. If in our reform of the public service we can in any way moderate that perception and remove from politicians the need to become involved in this area, so much the better for Parliament and the image of the public service.

Basic to this idea is the delegation to executive units of much that is now the responsibility of Ministers. Very much of the work on a Minister's desk is of an executive type and this means that there is not enough time to devote to policy matters. There have been changes in management structures in some Departments based to some degree on the Devlin concept. Deputy Haughey will recall that in the Department of Health, in which he served, there was quite a degree of reorganisation to allow the Minister more time to devote to matters of policy. If delegation of a number of areas which are now the responsibility of Cabinet Ministers is to take place and if designated officers are to have responsibility for the implementation of particular programmes of Government, there must then be some other appeals authority, if the Minister has not responsibility to the House, to whom an aggrieved person can go if he feels he has not been fairly treated. For that reason I would see the appointment of an ombudsman as central to any real attempt at reform within the public service. If that means delegation of some existing ministerial responsibilities, there must be made available to the public an independent person of standing with sufficient back-up staff who can investigate inequities in the operation of the system.

Would the Minister not still be responsible to the House?

Of course Ministers would still have ultimate responsibility to the House but if there is to be reform of the system and if less of the system goes across the Minister's desk, in tandem there must be the creation of the office of ombudsman in order to give the general public confidence in any changes from the outset.

I was a little taken aback at some of the remarks made today about the concept of the ombudsman. The Act was passed in 1980, several years after an informal all-party committee of the House examined this matter and recommended that the office be created. The subsequent Government introduced and enacted the legislation in 1980 but since that time successive Governments have felt that it was not possible because of the constraints on public expenditure to appoint a person to the office of ombudsman. I hope it will be possible to do so within the lifetime of this Government.

The Minister had better hurry up.

There has been a great deal of criticism, some of it valid, concerning the blunt effect of the embargo on public service recruitment. Publicly on a number of occasions I have said that I have found the embargo to be crude and blunt in its effect. So far, it is the only device introduced and implemented that has been effective in controlling civil service numbers. Last year, for the first time in over a decade, the total number in the civil service actually fell. It is my hope that it will be possible in the fairly near future to devise a system that will at least be as effective as the embargo but which would be more selective in its application and recognise the sensitivity of positions and the need to fill them to maintain a proper service to the public.

The matter of decentralisation, and the matter of the suspension of the concept by the Government in the context of the budget this year, was raised mainly by Deputy Fitzgerald, but also by other speakers. I do not attempt to evade responsibility, but I would point out that the question of the acquisition or disposal of sites are matters for the Department of Finance, through the Office of Public Works. However, because of some of the queries, particularly by Deputies Fitzgerald and Wilson, I made some inquiries today. There was a suggestion that a site in Killarney which had been acquired for decentralisation had been offered for sale. I have been told that the OPW have no knowledge of any site being acquired which was disposed of. In Cavan the site had not been acquired; it was under negotiation with the owners, who were the local authority, and those negotiations have not been continued.

A number of points were made in relation to the introduction of new technology into the public service and the need for greater appreciation of computerisation and information technology. We should all realise that we are living in an information society. The world will change between now and the end of the century to a greater degree than since time began. That is a rather large concept to absorb, but information technology is changing so rapidly that it should have changed the face of every manager's desk already.

By the end of the century we will have totally new concepts of work practices and work places. The spread of the microchip and its effect on work practices and life styles will become even more marked by the year 2000. As a nation, if we do not understand the real importance of facing up to the challenge, not the threat, of the information society, the world will pass us by. We now have an opportunity to be in the forefront of that change. The challenge of the information society is equally, or perhaps more important, to the civil service as it is to many other areas.

All of us who are over 30 years have rather a fear of computerisation because of our lack of experience of it or education in it during our schooling days. Middle and senior management in the civil service must have a far greater appreciation of the importance new technology has for them and I am setting up a special course in the Civil Service Training Centre to deal with this matter. In particular, I hope that senior and middle civil service management will attend.

I welcome the support given by Deputies to the concept that appointments in the civil service should be on merit rather than simply on seniority. That appeals to me, as I said in my opening remarks. The other suggestions that staff of Departments might be asked for improvement suggestions has real merit. There is a scheme available to them asking them to make suggestions, which contains a reward system. I am examining whether that scheme might be extended.

Deputy Wilson suggested that more of our civil servants should be encouraged to go abroad on exchange programmes to get new experience. I agree with him. Civil servants are released to European education institutions, particularly to the colleges in Florence and Bruges. There are exchanges with the European Commission. Officials from the Department and the Commission have gone on exchange programmes with each other. As the House will know, there are secondments to international bodies such as the OECD and Euro Control.

This week I issued a circular to all Departments stating that I had decided that the Government will support the idea of civil servants applying for places in the École National d'Administration in Paris which has a very high reputation in training of public service managers. They will not be able to attend such courses, if accepted, until 1984.

Reference was made to the Civil Service Commission and I should reiterate that the commission are independent of any political influence or pressure. Appointments are made by the commission independently. I have written to Deputies, and informed the general public, that it is pointless for people to write to me or to other Deputies to make representations, or in some way to appear to be successful in getting appointments in the civil service. Any applicant on whose behalf representations had been made would be disqualified automatically. Deputies have said that they have received curt letters from the commission pointing out that the commissioners are independent. It is wrong that a public representative should represent in any way that he was successful in obtaining a job for a person when, as we know, the commission appoint people on merit.

I was heartened by Deputies' contributions. It is an indication of the interest on all sides of the House in the prospect of public service reform. I was particularly heartened by the support given by Deputies O'Kennedy and Briscoe to the achievement of a public service pay agreement and particularly by their counselling on moderation in view of the economic climate. I thank the Opposition for the support they have given to the Government in this matter.

Would the Minister say whether Members of the House can gain access to public offices? For example, TDs may not bring their cars into Dublin Castle when going there on business.

I will inquire into that.

Vote put and agreed to.
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