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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 7 Jul 1983

Vol. 344 No. 9

Estimates, 1983. - Vote 3: Department of the Taoiseach.

I move:

That a sum not exceeding £4,047,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of December, 1983, for the salaries and expenses of the Department of the Taoiseach and for payment of certain grants-in-aid.

In so moving, I should like to review the problems which face the country and the policies of the Government to deal with them.

Our strategy on coming into Government was clear and was directly related to a series of problems which were apparent to all.

1. Our capacity to stop the growth in unemployment was impaired and had to be restored.

2. A disastrous financial drift, with the public finances out of control and getting worse by the day, had to be halted.

3. The ramifications of this disaster, which meant that already, even if all further borrowing were stopped overnight, for the rest of the decade we must transfer over £1 billion a year out of the country, or about the equivalent of the total yield of VAT, in interest and capital repayments on debts to foreign lenders, had become a major drag on our economy and had to be dealt with.

4. We needed to lay the groundwork for future development in our economy with new policies for industrial development.

5. Deteriorating relations with Britain had to be improved and the problems of Northern Ireland tackled.

6. Rampant crime rates and a growing drugs problem had to be reversed quickly.

7. A crisis in the probity of public affairs had to be faced head on, and new structures developed to ensure proper administration in the future.

8. A diminution of respect both for the primacy of Parliament and for the public representative had to be challenged by reform.

9. Other neglected areas needing considered reform, for example, aspects of social welfare and family law, had to be addressed.

Already in less than seven months we have made progress in each of these areas and while the balance of our strategy inevitably leans heavily towards the economic aspects — under each heading we can now see the way ahead. We have stabilised a runaway economy and started to control our indebtedness. We are creating an improved environment for industrial development. We have begun to halt the decline in competitiveness. We have the beginnings of strategies for regeneration and growth. A new Criminal Justice Bill is well advanced, which, together with extra gardaí and more prison accommodation will tip the balance against the criminal. We are focusing on the drugs problem, in respect of which we already have the report of a ministerial task force.

The injustices of our present system of transfers between different groups in the community are being systematically identified with a view to a radical reform of the social welfare and income tax systems.

We are well on the way to normalising relations with Britain and, with the co-operation of the main Opposition Party here, and the SDLP in the North, we have the New Ireland Forum under way.

We are engaged in a major diplomatic campaign within the European Community to ensure that the Common Agricultural Policy is not undermined in negotiations now in progress and that the Community's own resources are expanded to finance new policies and enlargement.

At home we have dealt with the telephone interception scandal. We have set about sealing off police administration and planning appeals from political interference and we have begun a reform process in the Dáil, through committee structures designed to restore the role which Parliament can play.

These energetic seven months have been rewarding. They have enabled us to clarify the enormity of our economic challenge and to rally public opinion to the necessary measures to meet it.

The most fundamental problem we face is employment — providing work opportunities for our people. Even under the most favourable conditions the resolution of this problem would be extremely difficult. Even if, for example, the early 1980s had been a period of continuing growth in the world economy — rather than a period of almost universal stagnation and decline; even if we had succeeded in maintaining our competitiveness in the domestic and external markets — which we have notably failed to do; and even if our public finances had remained in balance, giving us the leeway to pursue policies designed to create growth in employment — which notably did not happen; even if all these conditions had been fulfilled, it would have been difficult for us to secure jobs for all seeking work.

The reason for this is simple and we should recognise it. More than any other country in the developed world, we have experienced during the past two decades a rapid expansion of our population, and, above all, of our young population. This has been on such a scale, indeed, that there are now nine young people in their twenties for every five in that age bracket two decades ago.

Because of this revolution in the structure of our population we would have required during the present decade a sustained growth rate well in excess of that achieved over any period of years, in any other European country since the last war, in order to provide all of this new generation with jobs in their own country.

Of course one of the preconditions I have mentioned — sustained economic growth in the countries with which we trade — is something whose achievement was beyond our control. Unemployment in the EEC has risen in virtually unbroken sequence every year now since 1972 — quadrupling from a level of about 2.7 per cent to about 10.5 per cent at a recent date. Nothing we could have done as a tiny country responsible for a fraction of 1 per cent of world output could have made any difference here.

But the other two preconditions were within our control — and we notably failed to do what was necessary to create the conditions in which employment would be available during this decade to those who wanted to work in their own country.

By increasing our money incomes at a rate far beyond that obtaining in other countries with which we compete, we have steadily reduced our competitiveness in price terms, both in our own market and in others, to the point where the survival of much of established Irish industry has been threatened. Increasing incomes without matching productivity increases put the price of our goods and services up to a point where these products increasingly become unsaleable in free market conditions; and people lost their jobs. Moreover, this reduction in cost competitiveness has not been offset by any significant move by established domestic industry to attain much higher levels of quality, of design, of effectiveness in marketing — such as would also have been necessary to provide employment for those seeking it.

The other precondition which we have failed to meet is the good management of our own public finances. Our failure here has inhibited to a very large degree the capacity of any Government of this State at this point to offset other disadvantages by providing through its policies compensating incentives to stimulate growth and employment.

The simple fact is that at the very time when we faced unique difficulties which, more than at any other period in the history of the State, required the pursuit of prudent policies in respect of our public finances, we have experienced a disastrous loss of control in this area.

In the end, last year, this loss of control came to threaten the very financial viability of the State. For during the previous four years, when we ought to have been keeping public current spending within the limits imposed by the amount of current revenue available, we actually planned to overspend to the tune of almost £2 billion; then, year after year, we so miscalculated that we actually overspent to the tune of a further £1 billion.

Despite our efforts — and in this case the first person plural refers to this side of the House more than the more general "we" of the previous paragraph — when in power in 1981-82 to restore some order to the public finances, the situation that this Government inherited at the end of last year, was daunting, and the danger threatening this State if these problems were not tackled promptly and decisively, was one that could have shaken our society to its foundations. For, taking the Exchequer and State enterprises together, we had become dangerously dependent on borrowing from outside this State, to the tune of over £7 billion in total by the end of last year.

This now involves an interest and capital repayment commitment averaging over £1 billion a year right to the end of the present decade. No wonder that by the end of 1982 there had begun to emerge amongst those to whom we have recourse for this borrowing, doubts as to whether we had the capacity, or the will, so to organise our own affairs as to be capable of sustaining repayments of this ever-mounting burden of eternal debt.

The commitments already entered into, and the need to borrow abroad, even on a reduced rate in order to sustain a smaller current deficit and a capital programme, was such that in the present year the Exchequer and our State enterprises needed to borrow abroad a further £1.5 billion, including sums required to re-finance part of earlier borrowings. Had confidence in our ability to manage our own financial affairs not been restored by decisive action within eight weeks of the change of Government last December, it must be doubted if borrowing on anything like this scale would have been open to us in the current year. In that event, the curtailment of resources available to the public authorities to finance the continued running of this State would have been of a character difficult for any of us to appreciate in its full implications.

We have been saved from that fate by the narrowest of margins. Our credit-worthiness has been restored and now stands once again at a high level, because those outside this State to whom we have to have recourse, and to whom we will continue to have recourse for several years to come, know that there now exists a Government with a majority in Dáil Éireann, and with the necessary determination to bring the chaos of our public finances under control. There now exists a Government who have the determination also to eliminate over a planned period of years, the need for external borrowing, by bringing current revenue and current expenditure into line with each other. This would have the effect that our capital needs for genuine and worthwhile public investment, would then in the normal way be capable of being met from the domestic capital market.

I know that, faced with the scale of the present unemployment problem, some people tend to react against this kind of stress I have just been placing on the problem of our public finances. While claiming to recognise that we face grave financial problems, and that tough measures need to be taken to deal with them, there are those who nevertheless prefer to brush aside these realities, by claiming for example, that the Government seem to be trying to do too much too quickly in the financial area. A tendency to complacency, a preference for the soft option, an impatience with reality, is being reinforced by political voices which, freed from the responsibilities of office — responsibilities which, in the closing months of last year, brought a belated realisation that severe steps had to be taken if we were to save anything from the wreckage — now feel free in Opposition to promote less responsible views.

But let anyone on the opposite benches who feels inclined, from the security of opposition, to echo the "too far, too fast" theme, remember that when, just a year ago, panic struck the Government then in office with the realisation of just how disastrous a situation they had created, they committed themselves to a regime of eliminating the current deficit in four years, with an initial reduction to £750 million in 1983.

This Government, coming to office last December, and using their wide international contacts to supplement domestic advice on just how severe were the measures that needed to be taken, were able to establish that what Fianna Fáil were proposing to do did indeed involve going too far, too fast. We established that it would be possible — as we have done — to restore confidence in our capacity to run our own affairs by spreading the process of eliminating the current deficit over five years instead of four, and by easing the initial measures, to allow a current deficit of £900 million in 1983, rather than the £750 million targeted by Fianna Fáil.

If anyone is still inclined to think that we have gone too far too fast, let them dwell even for a moment on what would have happened had the country remained under the grip of a panic-stricken Fianna Fáil Government, lacking either the information or the judgment upon which to make a mature assessment of what steps needed to be taken. That Government may also have felt that the manner in which they had themselves lost the confidence of those to whom we were beholden outside this State for continued access to external capital, made it necessary for them to try to impress those concerned by going further and faster than it was, in fact, necessary for a new Government to do. This new Government — the actions of which during their previous brief period of office had already won them the trust of responsible people both abroad and at home have been able to proceed about this task in a considered, orderly, and less disruptive manner than the Government which they replaced.

May I add that any illusion that might exist that we have been trying to do too much too fast cannot reasonably survive the recent evidence that the Budget deficit which now appears to be emerging is in danger of exceeding the £900 million target which was set last February — and I noticed that a comment from an independent source suggesting the opposite was immediately withdrawn after it had been made in the light of the June Exchequer figures. In this context, the Government have to review the evolution of current revenue and expenditure, and capital spending, so as to identify adjustments that may be required in order to keep close to our budget targets. The Government will in fact be examining these issues closely in the next few weeks, and will take whatever steps are deemed necessary.

The suggestion that in what we have been doing to get the public finances under control we are narrowly concerned about matters of book-keeping, will not stand a moment's scrutiny. The simple stark fact is that our capacity to tackle the problem of unemployment has been gravely eroded by the disorder in our public finances. If we are to be free to take the kind of action that will help to create sustainable employment, we will have to remove this obstacle to our freedom and independence of action in this crucial area of policy.

Before turning to the initiatives which the Government are taking, or are preparing, in the area of employment policy, I want to say something about the problem of low national morale: a problem arising very largely, I believe, from our economic and financial difficulties. There has been a loss of faith in our capacity to manage our own affairs; there exists amongst many a sense of hopelessness about the future. There are fears about the job prospects for the new generation. It also has to be said, there has been a loss of confidence in politics and politicians from which no party is entirely exempt.

But these doubts, these uncertainties, these fears can be allayed if we in this House, in Government and in Opposition, now take our responsibilities, show determination and leadership and, by our actions, once again demonstrate that we are entitled to the confidence of those who elected us, by giving them back faith in themselves, and faith in their country.

That faith cannot be restored overnight because the problems created by this combination of our demographic situation, the depression of the world economy, and the mismanagement of our own financial affairs, can be resolved only slowly and painfully. There are no short-cuts, there are no miracle solutions — though people still want short-cuts, they still hanker after miracles.

It is our job from these benches, indeed also the benches opposite — the job of all of us in this House — to build up confidence steadily, not by promising what cannot be performed — a path that could lead only to an eventual collapse of confidence in our whole political system — but by showing how, painstakingly, and painfully, we can work our way back from the brink of the precipice to the kind of position which we held a decade ago.

Let us remember that, at that time ten years ago our economic performance drew to our shores journalists from every corner of the world, concerned to discover how a small country like ours had achieved, from the stagnation and despair of the 1950s, growth and recovery. This growth and this recovery had by the late sixties converted a haemorrhage of emigration into a heartening flow of net immigration, by Irish workers, bringing back to their own country skills they had acquired abroad, and bringing with them spouses they had married and children they had begotten while in temporary exile.

We should not forget what we achieved in those years, nor should we diminish our capacity today, even in the most difficult conditions, and against great obstacles, to achieve again great progress in many areas where we have sought after and attained excellence, such as the high technology industries.

Moreover, we should not ignore the fact that the skills of our people, combined with the capital and know-how that we have imported from abroad, have yielded a continuing growth of the volume of manufactured exports at an annual rate of almost 10 per cent, even during these recent years of external depression and of spiralling domestic costs. That is some achievement.

The time has come for us to take stock not only of our failures, and they have been gross, but also of our successes, and of our capacity both to identify the problems we face and, with leadership, to overcome them.

We can look with pride to the achievements of companies, in both the public and private sector, working in Third World countries, bringing to them skills acquired in the development of our own economy and competing successfully there with enterprises from far larger and more powerful states with much greater resources behind them.

We can also look with pride at our exports in the computer technology area and at the extraordinary reputation which our young people in their twenties and thirties working in this sector have won for themselves and for our country through their skills, their enthusiasm and the imagination they have applied in this most exacting of industrial sectors.

At another level we can look also with some satisfaction to such achievements as the reduction in our inflation rate, aided as it has been, of course, by favourable external factors. Two years ago inflation was running at over 20 per cent; a year ago at 17 per cent; and in the last 12 months at 9 per cent, including the extra burdens imposed as a result of the tax increases rendered necessary in the last budget by the imperative requirement to reduce our budget deficit and borrowing. Over the last six months the underlying rate of inflation, leaving aside these tax impositions, has been less than 4 per cent, and while one cannot, perhaps, expect to sustain such a very low rate over a full 12-month period, it is now clear that we can look forward to a further decline in inflation into lower single figures during the 12 months ahead.

At the same time, despite the upward drag of high interest rates in the United States which affects every other country in the world and from which we cannot be exempt as long as it lasts, and despite the temporary hike in our own interest rates around the time of the realignment of currencies in the EMS last March, we have now seen a return of interest rates to the lower level that had been attained towards the end of last year and in the early months of this year. We must hope that they fall further, recognising, however, that this is a function, first, of external factors outside our control, some of which are currently pointing in the opposite direction, but also, to a significant degree, of the success of all our domestic adjustment policies.

We can also look with some satisfaction to the start we have made with the restoration of confidence in the equity of our tax system. This had been undermined by evidence of widespread tax evasion and by the inadequacy of legislative measures designed to tackle this evil. This year's Finance Act, together with the provisions contained in Deputy John Bruton's January 1982 budget, most, if not all, of which were later incorporated in that year's Finance Act, constitute together a major onslaught on the unfortunate weakening of confidence in the equity of our tax system and that had accompanied the raising of taxation to new and burdensome levels, something felt most acutely by those whose taxes are deducted through the PAYE system, which leaves little room for evasion.

In passing I should remark that while some have seen fit to visualise these measures against tax evasion as reflecting in some way hostility to enterprise, they are in fact nothing of the sort. They are a protection for all those engaged in enterprise, whether private or public, whose ability to do so competitively has been weakened by the heavier burden of taxation on honest entrepreneurs that has been rendered necessary because of the evasion of their responsibilities on the part of a small minority who lack any sense of public morality.

I absolutely reject any attempt to equate entrepreneurs with tax evaders. The vast majority of those employers, and of employees, engaged in productive work, providing goods and services capable of being sold competitively at home or abroad, have no hand, act or part in tax evasion and they have every reason to welcome measures taken to tackle those who seek to batten on them through tax evasion measures.

While we have been making progress in these areas we have also been preparing to tackle the employment problem in a planned way.

In order to produce a medium-term plan that will be solidly based on reality rather than on unrealistic aspirations, we have appointed a small, effective National Planning Board. In the early part of next year the board will produce their proposals for a medium-term plan upon which the recovery of our economy will be based. In the meantime this National Planning Board have been working actively in the three months since their appointment on proposals for a budgetary and financial strategy in the short-run, to be undertaken within the framework of their preliminary ideas about the medium-term.

We are grateful to the National Planning Board for the speed with which they have tackled this initial task and for the skills they have deployed in producing proposals which will help to ensure that budgetary strategy is coherent within itself and is consistent with a longer-term view of where we should be going.

At the same time the Task Force of Minister concerned with employment is examining ways in which our existing employment policies can be improved to make them more effective. At one level this process requires a review of some of the systems of incentives that at present exist to encourage enterprise in the industrial and other fields. At another level it involves seeking to alleviate in the short-term the problems of unemployment that are posed, especially for the younger generation, but also for those wage-earners and bread-winners who have suffered a loss of earning power and of personal dignity as they have become unemployed, many of them after years or even decades of productive work.

Our policies in the youth employment area have proved relatively effective and the scale of activity in our country in relation to youth unemployment is as great as or greater than that in neighbouring states. The opportunities for training and work experience for young people have increased two-and-a-half fold in the last two years, as a result of the establishment by our previous administration of the youth employment levy and the Youth Employment Agency. This year 45,000 young people will benefit from these activities for an average period of about five months each, the equivalent of 20,000 man years — a high figure in relation to the total number of young people leaving the educational system each year, something under 60,000. In fact, a significant proportion of them are, even under present conditions, getting employment. As a result of this progress we are perhaps nearer than any other member state of the Community to being able to adhere to the European Community's proposed social guarantee for young people.

However, the Government are not satisfied that the work of the various agencies engaged in this area, despite its encouraging scale, is as effectively organised and co-ordinated as it might be. If this be the case the fault perhaps lies with the rapidity with which this Government, both in our previous term of office and more recently, have sought to expand these programmes rather than with the agencies themselves, all of which are tackling their tasks with energy and enthusiasm. In the near future decisions will be taken to improve co-ordination in this area so that we will get the best possible value from the very large sums — £120 million in the current year — being ploughed into training and work experience programmes for young people who are experiencing difficulty in securing employment.

In speaking on this aspect of our problems I would not, however, wish to encourage any illusion that the problem of unemployment, either for the young or for those who have given long service and now find themselves without jobs, will be readily or easily resolved. We must not fool ourselves on this subject, and we have no right to fool those who find themselves today without employment. The simple fact is that on the basis of the kind of policies that we as a country have pursued over several decades and that are being pursued in neighbouring countries the resolution of the employment problem would require a rate of growth and economic activity which is far beyond anything likely to be achieved in developed countries in the years immediately ahead.

This means that unless we are to abandon the hope of resolving this problem we shall have to adopt some combination of two strategies open to us. The first of these is a radical improvement in the competitiveness of the goods and services we produce, a radical improvement that would yield for us a share of our own and external markets far greater than we possess today. This, the most constructive and positive course of action, will require a degree of self-restraint in respect of incomes far greater than any that we have yet been willing to show. We have yet to face the fact that in every wage round in which we seek and secure increases in pay in excess of the increases in output which we are achieving, we are pushing more workers out of their jobs and are depriving more young people of any possibility of getting employment. We must never forget the fact that one man's pay rise may often be another man's job loss.

I know that it is difficult to quantify precisely the damage that has been done in recent years by the excess of income increases over increases in output. It is certainly safe to say that some tens of thousands of people are now unemployed who would have remained in employment, or would have secured employment, if we had been willing as a people to accept the kind of self-discipline in this area that has been accepted by people in other countries with whose goods and services we have to compete.

Satisfactory though the drop in the rate of inflation has been over the past year, it is still running at three or four times the rate of such countries as the Netherlands, Germany, United States and Japan, and their inflation rates are a reflection in a large measure of the rate of growth of money incomes in these countries.

In the draft public service pay agreement which is now for consideration by the public service committee of Congress, a planned approach to the payment of special pay increases over the next three years has been incorporated, as has a provision for dealing in an orderly way with the vexed question of special claims.

A general pay increase covering a 15-month period has been proposed providing for phased increases of 4.75 per cent and 3.25 per cent following a six-month pause. These figures, while presenting a considerable demand on the Exchequer, a higher level than might have been desirable, nonetheless represent significant progress in reducing the rate of growth of the Exchequer pay bill and compare favourably with the level of settlements in this sector in recent years.

These pay proposals also set a pattern which may help to ensure what is badly needed: a more realistic approach in the private sector than we have seen within the past ten days. When the pay round in the private sector has worked itself out we shall have to review its likely impact on employment and will have to consider where we must go in future if we are to secure a recovery in competitiveness on a scale that could get back to work the tens of thousands of people who would today be at work if we had maintained our ability to compete.

In our development strategy for a more productive economy providing permanent jobs we will be giving more effective and more co-ordinated incentives to domestic enterprise. We will back that enterprise to the full and one of the primary concerns of the Minister for Industry and Energy, working with his task force colleagues, will be to reshape our industrial policy in a practical and effective way for that purpose.

As part of our practical overhaul of industrial policy to make it more responsive to today's needs and opportunities we have accelerated the work of the Tri-partite Sectoral Development Committee. We will have recommendations from this committee this year, reflecting the combined and concerted views of employers, employees and Government agencies, for the planned development of industrial sectors which cover well over 60 per cent of those employed in manufacturing industry.

The Government Task Force of Ministers will steadily convert these and the other proposals that they are and will be examining into practical Government action which will improve our capacity to protect existing jobs and to generate new ones.

To the extent that we succeed with our efforts to tackle the problem of unemployment by reversing the deterioration in competitiveness, which up to the present is still continuing, we shall minimise the need for a more radical approach to the employment problem. But given the scale of this problem, we cannot assume that even with a major change in attitudes to pay levels in the years immediately ahead — of which there is, as yet, no sign — unemployment can be reduced to anything like an acceptable level. A much more radical approach may therefore be necessary if we are to ensure that those who have lost their jobs get employment again and that young people get a chance to work.

A way will have to be found to secure a fairer sharing of work among the labour force so that we do not continue to have a situation in which one worker in six is unemployed while the other five have jobs at continually rising nominal pay rates. There must be ways of securing a better balance in the employment market. We must have the courage to seek them out, whether that involves control of overtime, shortening of working hours at unchanged hourly rates of pay or the splitting of jobs so that we avoid perpetuating the situation where, as between two young people, one finds himself or herself completely without work while the other gets a full-time job. In this context those lucky enough to be in employment must realise that every excessive demand conceded to them is depriving the next generation of job opportunities.

While our main concentration during the years immediately ahead has to be on our overwhelming economic problems, there are other issues too which we shall tackle. The problem of equity and fairness in our society goes far beyond the limits of the taxation system. Our public finances provide a veritable rabbit warren of transfer systems, taking money from people through a complicated proliferation of tax measures and giving it back to them again in all kinds of transfers and subsidies, many of which reduce the cost of goods or services arbitrarily to all and sundry rather than being directed towards helping those most in need.

We must put some order into this confused system so that the process by which the Government raise money in taxation and redistribute much of it back again to the general public is made efficient and operates in the interests of equity rather than in a higgledy-piggledy manner as at present. A Social Welfare Commission to be appointed by the Government and the Commission on Taxation, from which a further report is due, will together help us to find a way of clearing up many of the anomalies which leave people with a sense of injustice, and which in many cases do involve actual injustices. It is my purpose that by the time this Government return to face the electorate major progress will have been made with this complex problem.

We must also face realistically our growing crime problem, which has led to a large part of our population living in permanent fear. Already we have enacted the Criminal Justice Community Service Bill. Allied to the recent provision of new prison accommodation in three locations this will help to expand the capacity of our system to cope with convictions. Of particular importance will be a new Criminal Justice Bill designed to change the present balance between the criminal and the law.

I recently set up a ministerial task force on the drugs problem and am pleased that they have already completed their report for Government. This will lead to positive action in the near future in this tragic area of social disorder.

The substantial deployment of newly-recruited gardaí is already improving a bad situation in many areas. Allied to the other measures I have outlined, the expansion of Garda activity should lead to a marked improvement in the crime situation.

We have also begun to tackle a series of other social reforms. The Minister of State, Deputy Fennell, is working towards a comprehensive legislative package for the next four years. The inter-departmental committee working in this field, under her leadership, are already laying the groundwork for both legislative and other reforms in this area.

Already we have proposals to bring about joint ownership of family homes and we are working on improving the rights of children and human rights generally — the latter being an area in which we have neglected our international responsibilities by failing to take the measures necessary to enable us to ratify a number of international conventions. The new Oireachtas Committees on Marriage and Women's Affairs will have a major contribution to make in the area of family law reform.

We are also taking a major initiative as regards youth policy. A National Youth Policy Committee are being established in fulfilment of a Government commitment, to bring forward a national youth policy to meet the needs of the rising youth population. The task of incorporating youth as a social partner is being tackled in accordance with our commitment to this sector of our population.

The welfare of the less-well-off has been safeguarded by our budget provisions for social welfare. By increasing benefit by 12 per cent at a time when inflation is running at 9 per cent we have ensured that the elderly, the unemployed and the underprivileged are protected while the rest of the community are finding themselves faced with a squeeze in their living standards.

The more effective and more widespread development of the arts and culture is a high priority of our Government reflected in the appointment of Deputy Nealon as Minister of State with responsibility for this area. We intend progressively to bring better co-ordination and direction into public provision for the arts and culture, to solve outstanding problems in the conservation of our national artistic and cultural heritage where we have been neglectful and where great damage is still being done and, in particular, to strengthen artistic and cultural activities and facilities in the regions.

In a speech in an Adjournment Debate which inevitably must contain controversial matter, not all of which will commend itself to the Opposition, I am reluctant to say much about the problem of Northern Ireland where a great deal now depends upon the parties which are taking part in the New Ireland Forum developing and maintaining solidarity in their approach to the task of suggesting ways in which peace and stability can be established in this island.

Deliberately on this occasion, therefore, I will confine myself to recording that the Forum provides an opportunity for the three main parties here together with the SDLP — parties representing well over 90 per cent of nationalist opinion in this island — to put forward in a constructive, open and generous way a number of alternative approaches to the problem of restoring peace and stability in Ireland.

I shall not dwell either on the area of foreign policy save to make some comments in respect of one specific area where in the months ahead we shall be facing major problems and where also perhaps we may find major opportunities. This is in respect of the negotiations now due to take place concerning the finances of the European Community.

In the negotiations now under way in the European Community, we shall find ourselves under pressure on aspects of the Common Agricultural Policy. This is of immense importance to all of us on this island, whether we earn our living on a farm or in other walks of life where we benefit from the prosperity of the farming community.

We are at present actively preparing for this difficult negotiation in which we shall seek to secure the support of likeminded countries in respect of aspects of the Common Agricultural Policy which we and they believe to be of great value. We shall also ensure that the special interests of this country in the preservation of this policy, especially in so far as it affects products of such enormous importance to us as milk, will be protected.

I spoke recently at some length on the economic and social importance of a prosperous agriculture. I took care then to point out the difficulties the farming community have experience in recent years, which are often misrepresented in such a way as to divide town and country. The extent of the real income drop of farmers in recent years has had severe impact not only on farm families but on the many other families whose incomes depend directly or indirectly on a prosperous agricultural sector.

At the same time we shall be seeking to ensure that by the end of the year in Athens the obstacle to the further development of the Community posed by the present 1 per cent limitation on VAT payments by member states will have been removed. No one should be in any doubt about the importance of these negotiations for the vital national interests of this country. Preparations for them, and diplomatic activity in connection with them, will absorb much of the time and energy of our Government in the months immediately ahead, and rightly so.

The tasks that I have outlined and the challenges that we have to face, are on a more demanding scale than anything that any Government has faced in the history of this State since its earliest years. To tackle them successfully demands of any Government a combination of ability, energy and political skill beyond the ordinary. I believe that the Government which I have the honour to lead have these characteristics in abundance, and that in their balance of personalities, of skills and aptitudes, will serve this country well during the four years ahead. Backed as we are by two political parties in this House which are dedicated to the public interest, to economic growth and to progressive social policies, and which have the courage and fortitude to sustain a Government in the face of many and grave difficulties, we are, I believe, assured of success in this most difficult of periods, and in facing so many major problems.

Our two parties are determined to restore confidence in our political system. This confidence has been undermined by events such as the abuse of the telephone interception system and the politicisation of the Planning Appeals Board, to name but two examples in respect of which, as I mentioned earlier, we have already taken effective action. We shall continue during our term of office to make any changes that may be necessary in order to ensure that the more sensitive areas of our administrative system are not open to abuse for political purposes.

May I conclude by saying that the couple of months immediately ahead, during which this Parliament will not be sitting in plenary session, will not be a period of political inactivity as some commentators — not those closest to the political process — would have our public opinion believe. While most politicians will certainly seek a few well-deserved weeks of repose at some stage during the three months ahead, throughout much of the greater part of this period, members of this House, whether in Government, or supporting the Government in the back benches, or in Opposition, will continue to be fully engaged in the task of serving the people of this State.

The work of Government will proceed apace, with more time available for the discussion of policy and the preparation of legislative measures than is possible when the Dáil is in session.

Many of the Committees now established by agreement by this House and the Seanad, which will be operating on a scale without precedent in our parliamentary history, will together with the New Ireland Forum, be actively engaged during this period of parliamentary recess in pursuing the tasks alloted to them, carrying out these tasks very largely on a non-partisan, constructive basis, to which I hope the media will, during these months, and subsequently, direct the attention of public opinion.

When we adjourn tomorrow night the political process will not, therefore, come to a halt. In fact, in certain areas of activity it will be accelerated. And when this House resumes in three months time it will have before it an intensive programme of legislation and will also have the task for the first time in the history of the State, of examining before the Christmas recess, in advance of the process of spending the money in question, the Estimates of expenditure.

There is an immense job to be done by Government and politicians on behalf of the Irish people. In the months and years immediately ahead, all of us in this House will be playing our part in undertaking this task on behalf of those who have done us the honour of selecting us to represent them here.

This is an appropriate point at which to review the performance of this Coalition Government and to see how the country stands after six months of their administration.

The record is dismal, the picture depressing; the outlook bleak. Unemployment is at a record level and still rising. The economy is stagnant. Industrial relations are in a continuing state of confrontation with constant threats of disruptions. The budget is off course and despite a crushing increase in taxes, vital public services like health, education and welfare have all been drastically curtailed.

A state of deep depression prevails everywhere and for the first time most people are genuinely worried and fearful for their future. This public feeling probably arises in some measure from the depressing economic and social outlook, but it can more specifically be attributed to a campaign conducted over the last few years and still going on by Members of the Government and their friends. They have relentlessly preached pessimism to the point where they have created an almost pathological feeling of defeatism and depression throughout our community.

Sometimes I envy the Taoiseach his capacity to rewrite and completely distort recent economic and fiscal history. The sweeping audaciousness with which he distorts would be the envy of even the most skilled revisionist in a communist bloc country. I invite the impartial observe to note how in the pages dealing with the bad parts of our economic history he drags in Fianna Fáil as often as he can but when he comes to the great economic achievements of the sixties, Fianna Fáil are not mentioned, despite the fact that they were in office during that period. I should also like to direct the attention of the House to the part of the Taoiseach's speech which deals with equity. He said:

Our public finances provide a veritable rabbit warren of transfer systems, taking money from people through a complicated proliferation of tax measures, and giving it back to them again.

That is from the man who proposed the absurdity of the £9.60 payment. His advisers have let him down badly by allowing that statement through the net. I should like to warn the Taoiseach that the people are becoming increasingly cynical about this constant refrain of blaming everything on Fianna Fáil. He is in office now and the responsibility is his, not that of Fianna Fáil. He should stop blaming someone else and talking about our problems and difficulties as if they were academic matters far removed from him and for which he has no responsibility.

The business community have been intimidated to the point where there is almost universal apathy. There is a reluctance because of the atmosphere that has been created to show any enterprise, to undertake any investment, to start any new projects.

This general feeling of fearfulness for the future that is abroad is also due to a belief among the general public that this Government are confused and uncertain about their purposes, are divided on a number of important issues, and are subject to unpredictable changes of mind. The most recent of these is the false posturing and manoeuvring on public service pay. Categoric statements were made about what the nation could afford and decisions were laid down, all of which were subsequently reversed.

It is this sort of thing that conveys the uneasy feeling that this Government, because they are a coalition of opposites, because of the fumbling nature of their leadership cannot possibly generate the unity of purpose, the coherence and consistency that is needed to overcome our difficulties and secure our future.

What a pathetic sight the Parliamentary Labour Party presents to us at present. They are trapped and they know it. They must maintain this Government in office because if there were to be a general election now they would be decimated. Day after day they silently acquiesce in the implementation of harsh monetarist policies, in further assaults on the living standards of workers, lower income families and social welfare recipients, in savage cut-backs in health, education and other vital social areas, to a major undermining of the semi-State sector.

Labour Party Ministers and Deputies have had to abandon practically everything that Labour have traditionally stood for. What a terrible price to pay for the privileges of office. In a very obvious and desperate attempt to divert the attention of the general public and their traditional supporters from their sell-out on economic and social policies, Labour Ministers raise issues like contraception and divorce. Let me make it clear to them that they are not fooling anybody by these tactics. They are too transparently obvious. They would be far better occupied in devoting their energies to securing the adoption by the Government of rational economic policies particularly on the employment front.

The present exceptional level of confrontation and disruption in industrial relations arises directly from budgetary policies. The construction of a rational pay policy has been made impossible by the budget. In addition to the Government's own humiliating climb-down on public service pay, all over the country, wage settlements of between ten and twelve per cent over twelve months, corresponding roughly to the rate of inflation are being concluded despite the stated policy of the Government to keep increases down to five or six per cent. This situation is an inevitable consequence of the heavy increases in taxation imposed by the budget on the average employee and the increases in indirect taxation.

The Government placed their policy for the public finances ahead of everything else. They discarded every other economic and social aim and especially the problem of unemployment in favour of their bookkeeping objectives.

Despite this total preoccupation with the books, however, they did not get their arithmetic right. They are at present £75 million on the wrong side and by the time the public sector pay agreement takes effect, they will be a great deal more out of line. We were surely entitled to expect that the disciples of financial rectitude could at least get their sums right.

The statement issued by the Minister for Finance following the publication of the Exchequer Returns to the 30 June last contains a number of very damaging admissions. On expenditure on the non-capital supply services, it stated that indications are that expenditure on social welfare will for the rest of the year exceed the budgeted levels. This, of course, is inevitable with rising unemployment. It goes on to say that there will be some shortfall on the overall budget estimate for non-tax revenue and a shortfall in tax revenue of the order of £20 million.

What are they going to do now? Will there be a series of further impositions and cut-backs announced as soon as the Dáil recesses? Are the Government already looking at health, third-level education and food subsidies as prime targets for more expenditure cuts?

There appears again to be no agreement between Fine Gael and Labour as to what should happen next. "Tax the wealthy and the farmers" say the Labour Party. "Cut expenditure on health and education and close down State companies" say Fine Gael.

Once again basic differences on fundamental policy issues emerge. Once again there will be compromise rather than a clear line of policy resolutely followed.

It is clear from the latest Exchequer returns that we are now locked into a downward deflationary cycle which is feeding on itself. Deflationary policies were introduced for the stated purpose of improving the public finances. They can now be shown clearly to have the effect of accentuating the very difficulties they were supposed to cure. Deflation is leading to falling revenues because of decreasing demand leading to a need for more taxation and further deflation. The yield from excise duties now seems to indicate that what Ministers should have done in January was to reduce excise duties in order to raise revenues through increased consumption. Many of the budget increases have apparently been counter-productive. Excise duties have apparently reached the point of diminishing returns and the same phenomenon is now becoming visible with regard to VAT where buoyancy is beginning to fall off.

Consideration should be given immediately to very limited changes which might be made in order to stimulate demand, and so raise the level of economic activity and help the employment situation. I believe there is scope for selective cuts in taxation which could act as incentives and nudge the productive private sector into some modest investment decisions. I believe the Minister for Finance should experiment prudently with a cut for instance in excise duties on beer and spirits and perhaps on some other products also. If these cuts were well chosen and carefully assessed, they could be self-financing while at the same time increasing consumption and helping employment. The Minister should also consider a reduction in VAT on hotels and restaurants while there is still time for such a reduction to have the effect of generating a sufficient improvement in business to pay for itself.

The whole Capital Programme must be urgently reassessed. A large number of important projects are now winding down. The general level of capital investment should be maintained, and if possible increased. There is a danger of very serious long-term damage being done to our capacity to invest if structures built up over a period of years to reasonable levels of performance are allowed to disappear. If that happens the high level of capital investment which has been one of the more encouraging aspects of our economy could be permanently impaired.

In the Minister for Finance's statement there is one particular paragraph to which I would direct attention. It is the following:

"Exchequer expenditure on capital services in 1983 is budgeted to be about 10 per cent less than in 1982. Exchequer issues in the first half of the year in respect of these services were 15 per cent below issues in the corresponding period of 1982 and amounting to 46 per cent — in a year just half way through — of the budgetary provision. It is likely that, over the year as a whole, Exchequer capital expenditure will remain within budget."

Those words have an ominous ring about them — a suggestion that even the reduced capital programme set out in the budget may not be maintained.

The capital programme we had planned for 1983 was reduced by this Government by £263 million. Our programme provided £1,324 million for public construction. That was reduced to £1,251 million by this Government as a direct result of which there are now 30,000 fewer people employed in the construction industry. If the reduced capital programme is fulfilled the effect on employment and the general level of economic activity for the rest of the year will be extremely severe.

Either the Taoiseach or the Minister for Finance should give us a full outline of the developments which have taken place and the present situation in regard to foreign borrowing, our external assets and the general situation in regard to capital outflows and inflows.

It is clear that there has been no improvement in our foreign borrowing situation despite all the preaching and protestations by this Government. In 1982 net foreign borrowing amounted to about £1,100 million which was a significant reduction on the 1981 figure. The Government are supposed to be aiming at a figure of about £800 million this year. But, of course, devaluation means that the external debt will in fact increase by about £1,100 million not £800 million. There does not seem to be much point in making strenuous efforts to reduce foreign borrowing with a corresponding curtailment of our investment programmes if this reduction is to be thrown away by devaluation. The Government have never come clean about devaluation. Was it simply, as the Minister for Agriculture now seems to suggest, to secure better farm prices. If so it was an unbelievably costly way of achieving that objective. Or was it forced on us as part of our currency management policy?

There is another aspect of the situation which is far from clear. It appears that there was a sharp fall in official reserves during the first half of 1983. If this has happened, then the Taoiseach or the Minister for Finance should explain how it came about. Were there substantial private capital outflows and, if so, to what can these be attributed? Were they of a permanent nature of were they merely temporary short-term movements?

This Government seems to have no policy at all on interest rates. We in Fianna Fáil in Government paid a great deal of attention to interest rates, because we recognised their significance in regard to investment in particular and the general level of economic development. Does this Government subscribe to that philosophy? And, if so, are they taking any action on this front. There is no evidence that any particular policy is being pursued in this key area of economic management.

At the time it was introduced it was argued widely from all sides that the economic strategy of this year's budget was wrong. It was entirely deflationary with good bookkeeping the sole objective. The economic consequences of such a budget were predictable, more unemployment, a falling off in investment, confrontation on the pay front, social deprivation and a general decline in economic activity. All this has happened. But it now emerges that even the bookkeeping objectives were not achieved and the deflation so warmly embraced and ruthlessly implemented has not even succeeded in achieving the budgetary targets which were its only justification.

The full extent of the deflationary impact of the budget is only now becoming clear. It has been calculated that the budget has withdrawn the equivalent of five per cent of gross national product out of the economy. That figure almost certainly reflects the greatest single measure of deflation ever undertaken in the history of the State. As a consequence, investment must fall by somewhere in the region of 10 per cent this year. I do not believe that the full seriousness of this situation has yet been realised or the adverse effect it is likely to have on future output understood. While Ministers have pointed to encouraging increases in production in the first quarter of this year, these must be viewed with great suspicion against the background of falling off in investment to this unprecedented extent.

In this connection it would seem that the whole future of our State companies is at risk. A very negative one-sided case is being stated against them. These companies exist to provide basic economic and social functions which would otherwise not be performed in our economy. It must be recognised, however, that their performance and their profitability have been affected by thee recession in the same way as many long established companies in the private sector have been similarly affected. There may have been mis-management, errors of judgment, bad investment decisions; but that is not the whole story.

The recession has stood things on their head for managements everywhere, in Government Departments and in the private sector, just as it has in the State companies. Decisions which were right at the time in the circumstances prevailing can now — of course with the benefit of hindsight and in radically changed circumstances — be severely criticised. It is a fact of our national life that the central civil service never fully accepted the independent role of the State companies. In so far as they have been given freedom, it has always been grudgingly given. Attempts have been made from time to time to bring these State companies back under direct departmental control. I would like to warn the Government to act very carefully in this area, not to allow the present recession to be used wrongly and unfairly against the long term value of the State companies. They have fuelled economic and social development in the past and they can do so again in a way that no other sectors of the economy can do.

It is fascinating, for instance, to see the relentless and insidious campaign that has been raged against the Whitegate Refinery. The campaign has been intense. The Government should however recall our experience in 1979 and understand how dangerous it is to leave ourselves completely at the mercy of ruthless multi-nationals. When one sees a campaign undertaken right across the board in all the public media simultaneously, one has every right to be suspicious as to the motivation for such a campaign. In the case of Irish Steel, Comhlucht Siúicre Éireann, NET, and all the others, short term panic decisions should be avoided. The Government must look to the longer term and have employment creation possibilities always central to every decision that is taken.

It is not a case of the Government's curtailment of the semi-State sector being counter-balanced by a major drive in the private sector. Far from it. There does not appear to be any enthusiasm in this Government for the private sector either. In a number of important productive areas — agriculture, fisheries, science and technology — State support has either been reduced or withdrawn. Whatever may be said about the new income tax band of 65 per cent or the residential property tax, from the point of view of the tax code itself they cannot be regarded as incentives to individual effort or private enterprise.

By way of contrast to this total lack of coherent economic strategy for development, I wish to recall for the information of Deputies the fact that before we left office the last Fianna Fáil Government prepared and published a detailed economic plan, The Way Forward, which charted the role we should follow to get out of our present economic and financial difficulties.

That plan, The Way Forward, accepted the realities of our economic and financial situation as they were revealed at that time; and, firmly based on those realities, it set out a balanced programme of action. The plan would, of course, have to be revised today to take account of all that has happened since it was published. But I believe that it is still valid as a basic economic strategy. The objectives it set out are equally valid. These were:

— to halt and reverse the trend in unemployment.

— to protect the living standards of those who must rely on social benefits.

— to promote equity in the taxation system and to reduce over the period of the plan the relative burden of the PAYE tax payer.

— to reduce Exchequer borrowing progressively, and to effect this reduction essentially by eliminating the current budget deficit through a combination of measures, including wasteful and unjustifiable public expenditures, reducing the numbers employed in the public service and moderating the public service pay bill.

— to increase, to the extent that was compatible with the Exchequer borrowing limits, public investment over the period of the plan and to employ more rigorous investment criteria for public investment.

— to create an economic environment conducive to private investment and to bring the balance of payments deficit under control by increasing exports and by a programme of import substitution.

Our real difference with, and criticism of, the Government in the area of economic policy is their decision to completely ignore and disregard the problem of unemployment. A massive figure of over 200,000 is now apparently to be taken for granted. It is quite clear from the policies and actions being pursued, and in one specific instance from what was actually said, that economic policy at present is not concerned with unemployment. The Taoiseach has stated in this House that the Government are pursuing policies diametrically opposite to those required by the unemployment situation. The Minister of Labour has given it as his view at the beginning of this year that unemployment would rise to 218,000 by the end of this year. Have we really come to this? Have we now given ourselves over totally to economic policies which inevitably lead to unemployment rising to and remaining at unacceptable and demoralizing levels?

As the steadily rising numbers of unemployed are announced each month, the Government's statements which accompany them are becoming increasingly laconic. The one issued on Monday last was coldly dismissive — simply a reiteration of the monetarist cliché about getting the public finances in order and restoring competitiveness. This is simply not good enough. The unemployment figures represent a social disaster. The Government cannot turn their back on this situation and suggest by implication that it is not really their concern.

Do the Taoiseach and the Minister for Finance not understand the grim reality that lies behind these figures? Can they appreciate the weary frustration of a young person who has answered scores of advertisements, filled in countless application forms and applied to firm after firm — all to no avail? Do they understand the atmosphere in a household where not only the father or mother, but two, three or four children are all unemployed?

Do they realise that there is widespread disillusionment among young people with the whole youth employment levy exercise, that they feel that they were cheated. Do they know that many young people are cynical about being trained for jobs that do not exist? There should now be a major revision of this whole scheme and a change-over to using the greater part of the fund for actual job-creation, as everybody thought when the scheme was introduced would be the situation.

The crucial need is for policies which are genuinely favourable to employment. There is no point in bringing forward a series of isolated measures at the end of this month, as has been announced, if the whole budgetary strategy remains hostile to providing employment.

At this time of the year many thousands of young people are leaving our schools and colleges and looking around to see where their future lies. They have studied and worked, got through their exams, and now they want a job. Surely there is something basically wrong with economic policies that require that they be told that they are not needed, that there is nothing for them, that they have no part to play, that they can just hang around.

In addition to the production of consumer goods and the provision of consumer services, there is much else to be undertaken in this country: exploring and developing our natural resources; improving our urban environment; improving our countryside and our coasts; providing tourist amenities; building the many community facilities we still need.

The challenge is to produce an economic strategy that, taking full account of our present financial situation, will succeed in harnessing the energy and ability of our young population to what needs to be done, an economic policy that will break the vicious circle of work needing to be done while the thousands who could do it are condemned to idleness.

This cruel dilemma must be resolved. People need hope. Everybody needs to have some sense of purpose or usefulness, and especially young people. At present all is negative. We are offered only hopelessness by this Government. I am as certain as I am that the sun will rise tomorrow that there is an alternative; that we can develop economic and social policies that will break the barrier between high unemployment on the one hand and work waiting to be done on the other; that will give men and women the dignity and fulfilment that comes from contributing their share to the society of which they are part. The first task is the psychological one of reversing the current devastating attitude of hopelessness. Those who have sought to depress and demoralise us have done their work well. The defeatist doctrine is expounded from every quarter. It has almost succeeded — almost but not quite. The tide can still be turned because hope and optimism are natural human attributes. We must turn that tide. We must reverse these attitudes. We can do this by offering policies which are balanced in their approach, which recognise the need for corrective action and at the same time provide scope for development and employment. That is how we see our role. That is the task that Fianna Fáil have set themselves and are now undertaking.

This Government have shown a complete disregard of the contribution that Irish agriculture can make to the Irish economy. They have done nothing to stimulate agricultural production or to support the food processing industry. The carefully prepared four year plan for agriculture has been scrapped and a whole range of production and investment incentive schemes have been cut. The cheap loan scheme for restocking was scrapped; the farm modernisation scheme suspended. These actions, undertaken apparently for monetary policy reasons, indicate a short-term outlook and a failure to understand the potential for development of one of the most productive sectors.

A much wider section of farmers are in financial difficulties than is generally realised. The Government appear to be doing nothing to alleviate this situation. The Government have also taken a whole series of important land policy decisions that depart from the policy laid down in Fianna Fáil's 1980 White Paper, without any debate in this House. It is quite apparent that, apart from realising the laudable aim of increasing land mobility as between elderly farmers and young progressive farmers, the changes could result in a new landlord system whereby wealthy individuals and financial institutions will be able to buy up large areas of land and then lease them out.

The tragedy of Northern Ireland continues and indeed in many respects the situation can be regarded as having deteriorated. We must, nevertheless, constantly and unremittingly work for political progress.

The setting up of the New Ireland Forum is an important development, but it is not taking place in a political vacuum. Since we set it up there have been important developments both in Northern Ireland and in Britain and others will follow in the normal course of events. The Government must have a coherent political strategy apart from which the Forum can carry on with its own particular specialised task. This strategy should encompass developments here, in Britain and in the US. It now appears that, despite early indications to the contrary, an Anglo-Irish Summit will take place before the Forum has reported. This raises a number of complex questions. Particularly we must ask if the Forum and its work will be on the agenda for the summit meeting and, if so, in what context?

Another issue which must feature in Anglo-Irish relations is the indiscriminate use of plastic bullets by the British army in Northern Ireland. I recently met the parents of children who were killed by plastic bullets. Each of them gave me simple but harrowing accounts of how their children met their tragic deaths. The plastic bullet, it is clear, is a weapon of death, not a method of riot control. It is moreover used by soldiers in armoured cars against innocent children. No responsible politician condones violence of any kind or from any source. Numerous serious complaints have been made by respected citizens of harassment and oppression of the nationalist population by the British army.

It is our duty in every way open to us to demand that the use of these weapons, which are unacceptable, lethal and probably contrary to international provisions regarding human rights, be prohibited. It should be made clear that, if we are not given satisfactory guarantees that the use of these weapons will be banned, Ireland will take a case against Britain to the Strasbourg Court of Human Rights.

Another feature of this Government's eight months in office has been a lack of progress in promoting North/South economic co-operation. The most serious example of this is the fact that negotiations over the supply of natural gas to Northern Ireland have not been brought to a conclusion. I would like to ask also, whether the monitoring committee which the Taoiseach promised the Northern engineering union representatives has yet been set up?

Fianna Fáil in Government were concerned to unify Irish-Americans behind the Irish Government's policy on Northern Ireland. We believe that Irish-American opinion can be mobilised to inform and influence the American administration on the need for new political structures. We had made considerable progress in this area last year. But I am sorry to see that, following the change of Government, relations between the Irish Government and different sections of Irish-American community have deteriorated sharply again. This is a regrettable failure of Irish leadership. It represents a dissipation of diplomatic effort which should be constantly and firmly directed to informing American opinion of the Irish analysis of the Northern problem and the role that the United States can play in persuading Britain that the ultimate solution requires her withdrawal from Ireland.

The recent visit of Vice-President Bush to Ireland has been a grave disappointment. I welcome his statements on the subject of Irish neutrality, which hopefully have confounded some of the critics of our neutrality at home and abroad. Unlike some other commentators, the Vice-President clearly betrayed no desire to decry our neutrality.

Otherwise the visit achieved nothing. For some incomprehensible reason the Taoiseach apparently asked Vice-President Bush to do nothing about Northern Ireland at present. Does the Taoiseach think that Irish-American opinion and Irish-American political effort is something that can be turned on and off like a tap in accordance with some obscure timetable of his own? The very opposite is what is needed. The British propaganda effort about Northern Ireland in the United States is constant, comprehensive and unremitting. We must ensure that at all times there is a continuing Irish effort designed to ensure that both the political establishment and American public opinion are motivated in favour of positive American action towards a solution of the tragedy of Northern Ireland.

We share with the Government a concern about human rights in Central America. In this area also apparently the Taoiseach achieved nothing.

We in Fianna Fáil condemn the escalation in the nuclear arms race and we urge that every effort be made to ensure the success of the current disarmament talks. The Taoiseach apparently missed the opportunity to express the viewpoint of the vast majority of the Irish people on a matter on which the survival of the entire human race could depend.

The continuing rise in all crime, but particularly in organised crime and drug trafficking, is a cause for deep anxiety. The alarming extent of the drug abuse problem, with all its attendant evils and appalling consequences for our young people, particularly demands urgent action.

The Government have agreed to our proposal to establish a Select Committee on Crime, Lawlessness and Vandalism to examine such aspects of the administration of justice, the implementation of the criminal law and existing legislation which, in the opinion of the committee, affect the personal safety and security of our citizens in their homes, on the streets and in public places, to report thereon and to make recommendations where appropriate. There is no more important or urgent a task which could be given to a Select Committee of this House and I hope the committee will make a worthwhile contribution to this crisis situation.

The first and most fundamental right of all men and women is to be able to live in peace, free from any threat of violence to their homes, their property or their persons. We all have a heavy responsibility to uphold that right and to safeguard it for the Irish people.

There has been a considerable amount of discussion this year about Dáil reform. It was also mentioned by the Taoiseach in his speech. A large number of Parliamentary Committees have been established. It remains to be seen how effective these committees will be and what contribution they will be able to make. A great deal of comment about them and the expectations that have been expressed in regard to them is, in my view, misdirected and I ask the question how much reality there is in all this advocacy of Dáil reform. We have had the experience of, perhaps the most important single piece of legislation introduced in any year — namely, the Finance Bill — being put through this House on the basis of a complete stone-walling performance by the Minister for Finance. He put up the most wooden performance ever witnessed on a Finance Bill, refusing to accept anything of any significance from the Opposition benches in regard to the Bill. It is valid to suggest that the Government are not serious about Dáil reform when that sort of thing happens. Any impartial observer would have to admit that in all the many suggestions and proposals we put forward in relation to the legislation there were a number that could have been accepted by the Minister for Finance in the genuine interest of a better taxation system and the public finances.

Later we had the Tánaiste and the Minister for the Environment bringing in most objectionable and unprecedented legislation whereby the existing Planning Appeals Board will be abolished. It was party political vindictiveness and the fact that that legislation, reprehensible in itself, was railroaded through the Oireachtas with the aid of a guillotine motion, again causes us to seriously doubt the sincerity of the Government. Real reform of the parliamentary process will only be achieved when serious arguments and responsible proposals from the Opposition are listened to and, if clearly beneficial, accepted.

This Government are not managing the Irish economy in the best interests of the Irish people. They have accepted some other criteria. The policy is totally deflationary and as a result unemployment is soaring, with no attempt being made to stem the tide or tackle the evil. Our bright, educated young population is being betrayed and left without hope or prospects. Crime, lawlessness, drug trafficking are threatening the very basis of our democratic society. The personal safety and freedom of movement of many of our citizens can no longer be guaranteed. There is social deprivation and hardship. A reasonably adequate education system, built up patiently and painfully over a long period of years, is being devastated.

It is now at last being seen that personalised public relations campaigns and the packaging of political leaders and achieve only so much and that when the crunch comes there is no substitute for clear thinking, resolute leadership, a caring philosophy and enlightened policies.

This Government have by now been clearly identified as the most confused Government in the history of the State. The cold truth is beginning to dawn even on themselves that they do not know what they are at. I say to them: if you insist on staying there, befuddled and confused, then at least have the honesty to admit that you got it all wrong, that your policies are totally inappropriate to our circumstances and that you are going to begin again. If you do that it will be our duty to give you every assistance we can to get it right the next time.

I want to contradict some of the statements of the Leader of the Opposition. He stated that the four-year plan for agriculture had been scrapped. This is totally incorrect. The committee drawing up that plan are meeting regularly and have already issued a draft report and I am expecting a final report from them shortly. The Deputy also stated that the cheap loans scheme had been abandoned. That scheme never existed, despite repeated assertions in this House by members of the Opposition. Not one penny was provided in the 1983 Estimates for such a loan system.

Let the Minister tell us what he is going to do.

Not one penny——

People want to know what they are going to do.

Deputies do not like to hear the truth.

(Interruptions.)

This is the most important debate in the year. The Taoiseach and the Leader of the Opposition have been allowed to contribute in an orderly fashion and I hope this trend will continue throughout the day.

It is deliberate misrepresentation to say that this scheme existed, in view of the fact that not a penny was provided by the outgoing Fianna Fáil Government in the 1983 Estimates for such a scheme. Also I take exception to the Deputy's remarks regarding this Government's proposed policies on land reform. To insinuate that we are trying to introduce a new landlord system is again misleading and it is absolutely incorrect.

I did not say that the Minister intended that. I said it could happen.

The Deputy and his spokesman on agriculture have been insinuating that that is our intention. Far from doing this, we have put forward imaginative proposals to get land mobility, which is the great inhibiting factor in Irish agriculture. We intend to introduce legislation in the next Dáil session to provide for long-term leasing which is the best way of getting mobility in land holdings. Far from creating a new landlord system, this has as its objective the provision of land for young farmers and farmers' sons who at present cannot afford to purchase farms.

(Limerick West): The Minister will soon find out the reality of those proposals.

In five weeks of Question Time on agriculture in this House which concluded yesterday I did not get one reasonable suggestion, question or answer——

(Interruptions.)

——as to how matters might be improved in agriculture.

You have to understand it to know it.

This Minister is correct. He said no reasonable answer.

At the outset I want to put before the House the Government's views on the role of agriculture in the national economy and their assessment of the prospects for the industry's future development. First, let me stress that Government policy on agriculture, like that on every other sector of the economy, must be considered in the light of the critical economic circumstances we now face at home and abroad. The general unemployment situation and the position of the public finances pose a greater challenge than any Irish Government have faced domestically since the early years of the State.

I detect the Minister to be reading from a script. Is it not normal in such cases that the script is distributed to the Members in the House?

(Interruptions.)

Please allow the Minister to continue. He is reading from notes, I presume.

On a point of order, I have been requested by Cinn Comhairlí in my time as Minister if reading from a script to provide the script for all Members in the House. I am suggesting to you, Sir, that that has been the precedent.

I wear spectacles and from this distance I cannot see whether it is a script.

I can tell you it is a script.

Deputy, you have long vision.

You will defend the Minister.

I will not defend him. I will defend you if necessary but I am not defending you at the moment. If you will allow the Minister to continue I will be grateful.

It is a break with tradition and in fairness——

I have been fair all the time I have been here.

The script will be available within a few minutes. To solve our current serious problems, we must follow policies that will rapidly enhance the competitiveness of the goods and services we produce; we cannot hope to be able to sell goods abroad or to compete with imports if our prices are not right. The decline in competitiveness in recent years has been responsible for much avoidable unemployment. To remedy this it is necessary to have a radical improvement in management, a joint effort by management and workers to raise productivity sharply, and a prudent policy on incomes, all supported by continuing vigorous measures by the Government to reduce the rate of inflation. The agricultural sector can make a major contribution towards the improvement of our economic fortunes but it too has to be subject to the disciplines which will bring about economic recovery.

In an historical context, the Irish economy has had relatively little experience of industrialisation on a scale enjoyed by most of our trading partners. As a result, much of the burden of fuelling economic development in our small open economy has been carried by the agricultural sector. Despite the declining share of agriculture's contribution to gross national product — from some 18 per cent in the early seventies to around 12 per cent in recent years — its pivotal role has remained. The growth in industrialisation, as shown by our industrial sector's rising share of GNP, has been largely responsible for the apparent decline in agriculture's contribution to national output. But this does not detract from the importance of the absolute level of that contribution which of course has a relatively modest import content.

In the early and mid 1970s the relationship between agriculture and other sectors of the economy was one of shared increasing growth of output and incomes. Gross agricultural output increased by some 11.5 per cent between 1975 and 1978. Over the same period family farm incomes increased by some 75 per cent in nominal terms and by over 20 per cent in real terms.

However, the year 1979 brought a halt to the upward trend and there was a reverse in the fortunes of the agricultural sector with the rapid growth of output and incomes being replaced by decline. In volume terms gross agricultural output declined marginally in 1979 and remained virtually unchanged in 1980 while falling further in 1981. This reflected primarily the fortunes of the cattle and dairy sectors. Cattle output, in volume terms, fell by 4 per cent in 1979, 5 per cent in 1980 and nearly 6 per cent in 1981. While the output of milk continued its upward trend in 1979, it fell by about one per cent in volume terms in 1980 and 1981.

These adverse movements in the volume of output were aggravated by adverse movements in the relationship between the cost of the farmer's inputs and the output prices received. While the agricultural output price index showed and increase of 3 per cent over the period 1978 to 1980, the input price showed a 29 per cent increase. As a result, farm incomes fell sharply and the farming sector came under severe pressure from which it has not yet recovered fully. The relationship between input costs and output prices improved in 1981 but although farm incomes per head increased by 14 per cent in nominal terms they again fell slightly in real terms.

Last year the picture showed a welcome change and we had some recovery following three poor years. Output of milk increased by some 9 per cent and that of cereals by 5 per cent, while the output of sugar beet set an all-time record. Because of these favourable developments gross agricultural output was up by some 3 per cent in volume terms. As a result of some fall in the level of inputs used by farmers, net agricultural output increased by about 6 per cent. Family farm incomes per head grew by over 20 per cent in nominal terms which included the rate of inflation and gave a small but encouraging rise in real incomes.

The outlook for the current year's performance is one of continued growth in farm output and incomes, but at a somewhat lower rate than that recorded last year. Unfortunately, weather conditions for part of this year have not been as favourable as they might have been. As a result farmers have had to incur extra expenditure on inputs and this will have an impact in the rate of growth. However, with inflation continuing to decline the growth in nominal farm incomes should be reflected in some improvement also in real terms.

A major element in the returns to farmers for this year should be the higher prices for all the major commodities arising from the satisfactory outcome to this year's EEC farm price negotiations. In real terms the package is the best for some years. The increases in the support prices taken in conjunction with the green pound revaluations represent an average rise in Irish prices of 9½ per cent. The price agreement also provides for an increase of 3.3 per cent in the buying-in co-efficients for our intervention beef, the continuation of the calf premium of £23 per head for livestock producers, the special additional FEOGA financing for suckler cows and the continuation of the AI and lime subsidies for a further year. It is estimated that the Irish farm sector will benefit from the package to the extent of £255 million in a full year. This impressive income boost will benefit not only the farmers themselves but also the entire national economy.

It will not surprise Deputies to hear me say that the Common Agricultural Policy has been meeting with serious difficulties. In one sense the problems are those of success, not those of failure. While food shortages still persist in much of the world and even in some parts of Europe, supplies in the Community have out-run effective demand in a number of important sectors, and persistent surpluses have developed with consequent financial difficulties for the Community. Imports from countries outside the Community also play a part, as do trade distortions arising from arrangements in force in some member states. The depressed conditions on world markets have made matters worse.

In that regard, I am distinctly unhappy with the operation of the variable premium system in relation to beef as it is at present being utilised by Britain. We have let it be known on numerous occasions at the Council of Agriculture Ministers that we object to what we consider to be an unfair trading advantage as a result of the operation of this subsidy, which was originally brought in to keep meat prices in Britain down but which now has been manipulated to provide subsidies for beef exports from Britain to fellow members in the EEC and also to third countries. At present we are having discussions with the British Ministry of Agriculture in the hope that they will agree to eliminate this subsidy. If those discussions are not fruitful, I will be taking further action through the Commission.

We are unhappy about the manner in which the Milk Marketing Board in Britain are carrying out their operations to the detriment of the milk industry here. The degree of cost subsidisation whereby milk products such as butter and cheese are produced at relatively low prices is against the spirit of the Community, and I am glad to see that the Commission have issued a reasoned opinion on this subject, declaring that the activities of the British Milk Marketing Board are contrary to the spirit of the Treaty of Rome. I hope due cognisance of that reasoned opinion will be taken by the British Government. If not, we, together with An Bord Bainne will take the necessary action, and I hope the British will agree without having to be forced to do it by the European Court.

Another important contributory factor to the difficulties in regard to milk products has been the depressed condition of world markets and the intervention of the US into world markets, in particular a number of markets which were being supplied by An Bord Bainne. We have learned that the Americans are giving inducements to countries which were our customers to buy their products. I hope some agreement can be reached between the EEC and the US so that we will not have to enter into a price war, from which neither of us would gain. It is a disturbing trend. We have lost a number of very valuable markets in the Carribbean area and in Central and South America. However, I am delighted to see that An Bord Bainne have won some very useful markets in Russia and Algeria which will earn us a considerable amount of money.

The Common Agricultural Policy has provided very substantial benefits to this country, by way of price and market supports for our farm products. But to my mind the most important benefit of all has been free access to the markets of other member states. Agriculture is still of far greater significance in Ireland than in much of the rest of the Community. We have throughout regarded the maintenance of the basic principles of the Common Agricultural Policy as a major policy aim. It is gratifying that the recent European Council in Stuttgart reasserted the Community's support for those principles. It is precisely because the CAP is so important to us that we must participate actively at Community level in dealing with the problems of market balance that have emerged.

One of the decisions made at Stuttgart was that all the existing Community policies would be examined over the following six months, with particular attention to the CAP. I would like to stress that the examination will not be directed solely towards making savings. It is also to aim at modernising the various policies and making them more effective. Clearly, the existence of market imbalances will be a major element in the examination of the CAP. The Community must show itself capable not only of solving that problem but of solving it in an equitable and sensible way. We will do everything in our power to ensure that farm income requirements are taken into account, that internal distortions between member states are properly dealt with and that any burdens imposed on Community producers are shared by suppliers outside the Community. I will be adopting a very firm stand where imports from third countries are affecting markets for Irish agricultural produce. We must do that if this attempt to interfere with the Common Agricultural Policy is pursued by certain member states who are benefiting from these imports from third countries. We will of course, attach special importance to ensuring that adjustments or modifications or any new arrangements will allow Irish agriculture the opportunity of improving its productivity and of exploiting its potential.

The concrete decisions to be taken at the end of this year or in 1984 will be decisions by member states. It would be naive to assume that nothing in the detailed CAP arrangements would change or that any member state could totally avoid playing its part in restoring market balance. But given the importance of agriculture to our whole economy and the contribution which increased agricultural production can make to national progress, it is essential for us that we should continue to have the scope and opportunities that will enable this major sector of our economy to expand. I am confident, however, that with the support of some other member states we will at the end of the day reach solutions that will be both effective and equitable.

I do not want to be over-optimistic in that regard. The whole future financing of the EEC must give rise to great concern in this country because there obviously is a concerted attempt by some of the major states within the EEC to see that spending in agriculture is reduced or at the very least stabilised. This is diametrically opposed to our interests and we will have to be very vigilant to see that this type of attitude does not succeed.

The Minister is travelling that road himself by scrapping the farm modernisation scheme.

That has nothing to do with the future financing of the Community. I would appreciate if we had co-operation from all sides of this House in our approach to this matter. It is far too serious a subject to try to score cheap political points. It is a matter of very serious national concern.

Be consistent.

I should now like to say something about the cattle and milk sectors which are the basis of the whole agricultural industry. On the one hand, whereas cattle prices have remained at reasonably good levels, on the other hand many of our meat plants are working at well below their capacity. The industry is, therefore, somewhat unbalanced and to remedy this we need a significant rise in cattle numbers. We have gone to considerable lengths to try to increase numbers by providing a whole series of incentives which in essence give a person in a disadvantaged area subsidies to the extent of £169 for a cow and calf and in the other areas £118.

At the recent EEC price negotiations we got a continuation of the calf premium and the cow suckler premium and more important is the fact that we secured a valuable improvement in the buying-in price for beef. It means that the increase for beef in the current year will be in excess of 14 per cent, which is a substantial figure. There is a general appreciation among the farming community that it is a very generous increase and it has done a lot of good for our cattle and beef trade.

Beef is a highly export-oriented industry. In fact we export over 80 per cent of our total output. That is very significant because repeatedly in recent weeks people have been saying: "Why do you not stop the import of potatoes, vegetables and what not?". We export three times as much agricultural produce as we import. If we were to interfere with fellow members of the Community exporting agricultural produce to this country we could suffer very severely by retaliatory measures. We export three times as much as we import. Eighty per cent of our beef production is exported.

The Government are fully committed to the concept of maximising beef processing, thereby creating greater employment and reducing the balance of payments through greater exports of addedvalue products. Over the years successive Governments have worked — do not say I did not give you credit — to ensure that the detailed EEC arrangements for beef are as favourable as possible to exports in processed form. Considerable success has been achieved in this and we are continuing to work on a small number of remaining problems. I consider that in the review of the CAP to which I have already referred, it is most desirable that consideration should be given to how best the Community can ensure that encouragement is given to the processing of agricultural products within the Community. Export refunds should, in my view, be so adjusted that employment is provided within the EEC and not in third countries.

Last year saw an increase of about 8.5 per cent in creamery milk deliveries. Deliveries in the first six months of this year increased by over 10 per cent and it now looks as if the increase for the year as a whole will be 6 per cent or 7 per cent or even more. Given the very bad weather in the late spring and early summer this is a remarkable performance, which testifies to the technical abilities and renewed confidence of Irish dairy farmers. Nevertheless the increased volume of deliveries allied to the reasonable EEC price settlements and the lower level of inflation should result in a further real increase in dairy farmers' incomes this year.

While the rise in milk production is very encouraging, developments in the milk sector generally are a cause of some concern. Rising production virtually everywhere, increasing stocks and the economic recession have seriously depressed the world market. Increasing deliveries of milk are therefore leading to a huge build-up of intervention stocks which have consequential and substantial budgetary implications for future years. In this regard I would like to say that we must get away from the traditional milk processing techniques adopted in this country if we are to get away from intervention. We must diversify. Our partners in Europe are getting considerably better prices for their milk produce and have much more success in selling their products because they have diversified on such a large scale. We badly need to do it. There is need for more imagination and investment by our processors.

It is obvious that intervention surpluses are building up. The more they build up the more pressure there comes from some of the other member states of the Community to cut back on prices. The only answer to that is for us to be able to sell products other than through intervention. The only way to do that is by diversification. I am glad to note that some processors have entered into very costly campaigns to do just that, to sell other products on the larger European markets. However, I am not happy that sufficient processors are becoming involved in such diversification. In those circumstances it is certain that we will be faced with further proposals aimed at moderating the rate of increase in milk deliveries and at limiting the cost of the EEC milk policy. The Government will be pressing to ensure that, whatever action is taken, will not prevent our industry from developing to its full potential. There is a gap between our level of development and that which is normal in the Community. We must continue to reiterate that when we are seeking special terms for our agricultural industry, that our industry should not be compared with some of what are almost factory-farm type industries on the Continent.

Over the past few months feed grain has been scarce and expensive. As part of the prices negotiations, I am glad to say that we have been able to get 50,000 tonnes of intervention wheat from Germany. This has now come on the market as animal feed and is being sold at prices between £12 and £15 a tonne cheaper than those prevailing for feed wheat up to recently. Because of our island situation, because of our normal lack of any great surplus in cereal production, our consequent need for imports and our lack of port facilities to take in very large shipments, we tend not to be competitive by comparison with other member states both in regard to prices for animal feed and for cereals for human consumption. This was brought home to us very vividly in the past year or two with the problems encountered in the flour milling industry.

The result of our lack of competitiveness is also demonstrated in other ways. I should like to emphasise our need to produce more cereals to meet all our needs both for humans and animals and also the need for competitiveness in production. Our milling industry has done quite a bit in that regard and a number of them are now very competitive. They have faced up very courageously to the challenge posed by imports.

In the horticultural sector, Minister of State, Deputy Hegarty, and I have had talks with a number of interested groups with a view to improving the competitiveness and marketing efficiency of our industry. Deputy Haughey deplored the fact that our food processing industry was in such a state. That industry is not in a deplorable state because we have been in Government for the past six months. That has built up over the past 20 years. Unfortunately the Sugar Company's venture into the food processing sector was a distinct failure. We must look at it again and that is what we are doing. Therefore, let us not be unreasonable, blaming people for failures which occurred 20 years ago. The whole structure of that industry was such as not to be competitive. We shall just have to become competitive. It is up to private individuals and companies to enter into that area. We, as a Government, will give them every possible assistance.

Another monetarist.

We are starting off on the right foot in setting up horticultural groups so that, in conjunction with the farming organisations and private individuals who wish to enter into the processing sector, we can take on these foreign imports. We hope that we can compete but it will not be an overnight success story. It will take time. It will be a matter of years rather than days, weeks or months. However, we are giving every possible assistance to the setting up of producer groups.

I have stated publicly that I would like to see the utilisation of Kinsale natural gas for the glasshouse industry, particularly in North County Dublin where it is intensified. It can and should be done. I have asked horticultural interests for their views on this. I shall be strongly advocating to the Government that such gas should be made available to allow growers in that area to compete with their counterparts on the Continent.

To deal now with the disease eradication programmes, I might say that the Brucellosis Eradication Scheme has been a real success. Perhaps the TB scheme has not had the same spectacular success. But I think we are on the verge of a real breakthrough, as I illustrated recently in the House during Question Time, when I gave figures showing that the incidence of TB in cattle is showing a significant decline, which is very heartening.

Finally, I should like to refer briefly to land policy. For many decades the primary aim of Land Commission policy has been the enlargement of undersized holdings. A complementary aim has been the rearrangement of intermixed and fragmented holdings into compact workable units. In the operation of this policy it was necessary to reconcile the purely economic aim of maximising agricultural production with the social aim of protecting and improving the fabric of rural society. Because of increasing legal constraints and of soaring land prices, the operation of this traditional policy has encountered mounting difficulties in recent years and the annual amount of land being acquired has declined steadily. At the same time there has been a demand for a reappraisal of a land policy. It has been widely claimed that not only was the traditional aim of the relief of congestion not being achieved but that the aim itself was not an appropriate one for the agriculture of today. How much time do I have left?

I think there is some agreement about half an hour.

Yes, I am concerned that I should not exceed that.

I understood there was agreement between the Whips for 30 minutes.

I think I am approaching the half-hour limit and will conclude as quickly as possible. It would be a help if we could be given an indication.

In the interests of an orderly debate, my understanding was that there was agreement between the Whips that there would be half an hour for speakers following on the opening speech.

That was my understanding as well. I am not sure of the precise time I started.

At 12.03 p.m.

Well then, I have used up my time and I will finish as quickly as possible.

If that is the case the Minister has overused his time.

Agriculture can make its optimum contribution to the economy only if all our productive land is fully exploited. Various studies have shown that structural conditions significantly affect the potential for growth. One-third of our agricultural land is occupied by farms on which the household and labour situation are such that growth in output is unlikely to take place. The owner-occupier system tends to be inflexible and accounts for our exceptionally low rate of mobility and structural change. By far the bulk of land transfers are within families, only a very small percentage reaching the open market. The solution is to increase our rate of mobility so that the more enterprising farmer will have access to the pool of under-utilised land.

I have, therefore, determined on a change of emphasis in land policy from the traditional aim of the relief of congestion towards one calculated to create the conditions which will stimulate the optimum rate of structural change — that is, to get land into the hands of those willing and able to develop it to its full potential.

In implementing such a policy I am changing the basic role of the Land Commission. Rather than being a body directly involved in the acquisition and distribution of land, it will function as a development agency which will provide a positive and constructive service to people who want help in solving their land problems. In this I have in mind such tasks as the encouragement of groups of farmers to get together to purchase land, and the rearrangement into more compact units of scattered and intermixed holdings.

Having regard to the negligible area on open sale each year and, at the same time, wishing to preserve the traditional right of the Irish farmer to ownership of his land, I have for some time been interested in encouraging leasing. As a land management system this will separate the concepts of ownership and use, and will allow those needing land to have access to it while the rights of the owner are——

In fairness to the House, if an agreement was reached between the Whips, it should be observed. If the Minister wishes to carry on with the practice he has been following all week, we should break the agreement; but we should be clear on what we are doing. Already the Minister has gone eight minutes over the half hour.

I asked the Chair if it would be in order.

Irrespective of what the Minister asked the Chair, he is now eight minutes over the half hour. Do we have an agreement or not?

I am attempting to clarify some points for the Opposition.

The Minister may be attempting to do that, but he has been up for 40 minutes already.

I was endeavouring to clarify some points for the Opposition spokesman on Agriculture.

(Limerick West): The Minister should not worry about me because I will clarify my own points.

I want to make it clear to the House that it is my intention to speak for two-and-a-half hours. If the Minister wishes to mix politics with this debate, that is fine.

I would have been finished long ago were it not for the interruptions.

Acting Chairman

I should like to clarify the situation. The only time limit the Chair can apply is one hour unless there is an order changing that and there is no order before the House.

I am not blaming the Chair, but the Minister has broken a gentleman's agreement arrived at between the Whips.

Acting Chairman

The Minister should be allowed to continue without interruption.

I would have been finished were it not for the interruptions by Deputy Fitzgerald. He is showing his traditional lack of courtesy. Some time ago I asked to be informed when my time was up.

The Minister knows well that he would not have been finished. Obviously, the Minister is inspired by the Taoiseach.

I would have thought that my gesture of goodwill would have been accepted in good spirit by the Opposition but that is not so.

I would like to clear up some fears which the Opposition spokesman has voiced about leasing. He seems to envisage a situation in which companies will put up farms with a view to leasing them to tenants, thus recreating the old landlord system. Let me assure him that nothing has happened to change the position as it has existed since 1965. All companies, whether Irish or foreign, require the consent of the Land Commission to purchase agricultural land. These controls will continue to be exercised as in the past. The Opposition spokesman also wished me to impose the controls proposed in his party's White Paper. The simple fact is that the PLV system, on which these controls were to be based, has been declared unconstitutional. Any further consideration of the controls must await adoption of an alternative system of valuation.

I am disappointed that the Minister did not see fit to observe what I thought to be a gentleman's agreement between the Whips. I await instructions from my Whip as to what the position is now. I thought that, in the interest of accommodating as many speakers as possible from both sides, an agreement had been reached not to have 45 minutes speeches but 30 minute contributions after the two main speakers.

I will not go into detail about the comments of the Minister for Agriculture; I will leave that to Deputy Noonan. This ill-fated Coalition Government are creaking earlier and more noisily than any of their predecessors. We have seen a difficult economic situation worsening with little or no light on the horizon for the thousands who are unemployed and those who left school in recent weeks. The central theme of my contribution will be unemployment because it is the most serious problem facing us. It is a topic that must be given attention by all sides in this debate.

Earlier this week we were told that 189,000 were unemployed but, according to this morning's issue of the Irish Independent, an EEC study has put the number of our jobless at 210,000. The Minister for Labour anticipates that the figure will rise to 218,000 this year and the EEC study indicates that the figure issued this week is conservative. We have not had any response from the Government other than to be told that a task force of Government Ministers had been set up and would be making major announcements shortly. After eight months in office the Government have not taken any action to improve the unemployment situation.

The situation has taken a serious setback from that which obtained when a motion of no confidence was tabled by the parties now in Government in November last. I suggest that the press should inform themselves of the situation rather than allowing themselves to be fed by a strong group of public relations people attached to the Government. The debate of 3 and 4 November last year makes interesting reading and must be causing embarrassment, particularly for the Ministers and Ministers of State. At that time Fianna Fáil produced a document, The Way Forward. Within a matter of weeks we had produced the Estimates for 1983 and, were it not for the collapse of our Government, they would have been discussed here. There has been a drastic cutback on those Estimates since, and this morning we heard a Minister saying that £200 million was cut from our Estimates on the capital side. That culminated in higher unemployment. The Labour Party have accepted all those monetarist decisions and efforts at financial rectitude by the Minister for Finance and the Fine Gael Party.

The term of office of the Coalition followed immediately on seven months of an irresponsible Opposition during which we had the leaders of the Opposition parties — one has since been absorbed by the major party — making all sorts of attacks on our Government. I should like to compare the position that applied to the public service pay discussions last year with what took place this year. The then leader of the major party in Opposition ended his holiday in France suddenly and, amid a glare of publicity, made a beeline home to, as he said, rescue the industrial chaos our Government were creating. To his eternal discredit he was trying to disrupt the progress being made in those talks, which were difficult for the trade unions and the Government. Last week I paid tribute to the civil servants who worked on my side in those talks and I omitted to pay tribute to those who worked opposite me in the effort to reach a solution in the national interest. An effort was made to undermine that solution by the leader of the major party in Opposition for a mean political purpose and that purpose was closely protected from the press by the packaging of his handlers. Those handlers now decide whether or not the Taoiseach should take the Order of Business here or whether he should appear on an RTE chat show. Yesterday, because of his badly tarnished image, they decided that he should not attend here, although it is the most important week of the Dáil session because we are about to go into recess. They decided instead that it would be better for his image to be on the radio chat show. Some of his most diligent and loyal supporters in the media up to now have described his participation on the chat show as a dismal failure. Obviously his handlers will have to think again.

I want to compare our approach to the public sector pay talks with that of the Taoiseach. I was anxious that the talks should continue but the statements emanating from Government saying that there should be no increase were not helpful to the Minister for the Public Service. There are people in the public service who have a strong commitment and who work very hard, for instance, in education; and on the law scene the gardaí work very efficiently. Many members in the public service are diligent in their work and they deserve to be treated fairly no matter how difficult the times. The only way forward was a negotiated package and an agreement being reached. I hope that the package that has been worked out by the negotiators will be accepted in the national interest.

However, it must be stated that the Minister for Finance in his budget, the Taoiseach in his many public utterances and the Minister for the Public Service in some of his comments did not make the task of negotiating that package any easier. Obviously the amount of money needed will be of major concern to us. People in public life do not have holidays. The Dáil may be in recess but much work remains to be done. We will be listening carefully to the Government's proposals. Last Sunday the Minister for Finance stated that further cuts would be necessary and this has also been indicated in the media. If this Government have succeeded in out-shining any of their predecessors it is in the sphere of public relations. I often charged the Government of which Deputy Kelly was Chief Whip with being experts in that field——

They were not expert enough to win the 1977 election. Their public relations did not do them as much good as the manifesto did for Fianna Fáil.

However, their expertise pales into insignificance when compared with the performance of the present regime. That is the only thing they have going for them, but that kind of public relations and public exposure is no substitute for commitment, dedication, vision and hard work at a time when they are so badly needed in the national interest.

We supported the efforts on both sides on the question of public service pay. The major difficulty facing the country is unemployment — a figure of perhaps 210,000 and one that is increasing. However, there has been nothing from the Government but attacks on State bodies and this morning the Minister for Agriculture continued that attack. It is more or less indicated now that it is almost an offence to be associated with or employed by a State-sponsored body. That points a finger at my area — Cork — where there are major industries in which the State is involved that are going through difficult times. Despite the very high unemployment level in that area as well as in others, the attacks are continuing on State-sponsored bodies and the indications are that there is a serious possibility of further job losses in many of the industries.

In this connection I refer to Irish Steel and announcements during the week that future decisions had been postponed until December. A decision was taken in June to continue until December but the decision after that will be taken in Europe. I say to the Government that we will not accept any decision from them other than that Irish Steel will continue. Not only are they a major employer but they are vital for strategic purposes to industrial development and construction work.

Verolme were discussed in this House some weeks ago, but other than negotiations regarding redundancy for 400 workers there has been no progress in the placing of shipping orders. I warn the Government that we will watch the situation very closely. Unless orders are placed as a matter of urgency there is little point in the Minister for Industry and Energy saying to the company to pick up what they can in a depressed market and the Government will subsidise them. That may be all right in the long-term but in the short-term there is need for one or two orders that have been discussed for quite some time.

The Irish Refining Company have been referred to this morning in the debate. In my opinion they have been unfairly attacked because of the power of some of the multi-nationals and their investment in creating good public relations. In the past the Irish Refining Company have made a valuable contribution in the hands of the multi-nationals and since they reopened last year under the INPC. There has been considerable progress in this area and the people concerned are quite happy. The orchestrated attacks that have been made on the company are of no help. Government spokesmen should have explained the true position. The project is a valuable industry not only in the employment it gives in the Cork harbour area and the extra activity generated but also because of its strategic importance to our economic and industrial development.

In the media last week we learned that CIE will have major lay-offs, that there will be a curtailment of their services and that they will have to live within a certain amount of money. We have not been given any details in the House but I expect that during this debate the Minister for Transport will spell out what is involved. There should be an honest approach to this matter. Whether one takes the figure of 210,000 or 190,000 as the correct one in respect of the unemployed, it is obvious the matter is serious. That must be our top priority.

Because of a certain allegiance by the Taoiseach to the British Prime Minister, an impression that he likes to model himself on her performance, he may be tempted to think he can succeed in emulating her performance in the recent British election. The Taoiseach would be well advised to discard any ideas he has on that point.

I should like to refer to the commitment of this party to a "Buy Irish" campaign. Because of our efforts with regard to import substitution it was estimated that over £100 million additional money went to Irish manufacturers in 1980-81. For the information of the House I should like to quote from this week's edition of the publication The Phoenix. While I cannot vouch for its accuracy, the Government should at least investigate to see if the story is true. It is headed “A Kerry Joke” and reads as follows:

Here's one that Dick Spring might care to look into. A few weeks ago, his Environment department gave a massive grant to the new library in Tralee. As one might expect, Tralee got more money than most of the other libraries in the country put together. But there was a reason. Since the library is new, it needs lots of new, expensive equipment like the £100,000 of shelving which has just been erected. The catch is that the shelving came from Britain, while up in Connacht, Galway Steel Fabrications is closing down due to lack of orders of this kind. Dear, oh dear.

I cannot vouch for the above claim but it merits investigation because some Government Departments and State boards are careless in their attitudes to buying Irish.

Why is there high unemployment in Cork? Deputy Quinn on 3 November 1982 when referring to the decision of our Government to have An Foras Forbartha decentralised to Cork, cited the case of the Minister for the Environment having ordered An Foras Forbartha to be transferred from Dublin to Cork. He said it was done without any consultation among the staff and that the Minister had taken this action in order to erect a property development on the quay in Cork. In other words, to make possible a private development, he ordered a Government body to be transferred, at considerable cost, from Dublin to Cork. The development on the quays in Cork, which Deputy Quinn referred to, was very important to the economic development of Cork and we had hoped there would have been about 1,600 building jobs there lasting for a period of two years. However, the building industry in Cork is more depressed than it has ever been, even in the bad fifties. It would have been a fine inner city scheme and would have resulted in a big improvement in the city centre.

The Coalition Government have mercilessly exposed the empty posturing and political bankruptcy of the Labour Party as has been clear from virtually every conference of trade unionists. The Labour Party have lost the confidence of the Labour movement and have no answer to our economic problems. They are prepared to provide vital support to the implementation of monetarist policies. Present policies could not be pursued but for the support of Labour Ministers in Government. Is there any other country in Europe where a Labour and, supposedly, socialist party are collaborating with right wing political forces of a Government that are copying the economic policies of the American and British Governments? The Labour Party Taoiseach — I call him that advisedly — spent most of his time in Stuttgart congratulating Mrs. Thatcher on her victory over the Irish Labour Party's so-called fraternal comrades in Britain. I wonder if they compared the Irish Labour Party with the British Labour Party. One need only compare the Fine Gael-Labour programme for Government sold to Labour Party delegates in Limerick with what has happened since to see how the Labour Party have been totally routed by the Fine Gael Party in the main areas of economic policy. The vital understanding, which was broken almost immediately, was that the Government would not pursue severely deflationary policies and that they would take less money out of the economy than Fianna Fáil did. There was to be £100 million extra provided immediately for urgent construction projects; £200 million was to be provided for a national development corporation and a higher budget deficit was projected. What has happened to them? Instead of providing £100 million extra for construction, the capital budget was savagely cut by about £263 million, hence the plight of the building industry to which I referred earlier.

It has been disputed whether the budget was really aiming for a higher budget deficit of £900 million. Some observers think the Minister for Finance may have been aiming at a lower figure although if the economy is wildly deflated he may miss his target completely.

The construction industry is mainly the responsibility of the Minister for the Environment. The Minister and his Minister of State are Labour Party Members and it shows how little clout that party had when they were not even able to implement the single most important commitment of the Limerick document, from their point of view. In the Official Report of 3 November, 1982, volume 338, column 782, Deputy Quinn said:

But if you live in a two-roomed flat in Pearse House and you are 79th on the waiting list and they are going to build only 50 houses in your area because of cutbacks, it is not much consolation to learn that the new Minister for the Environment is a very nice, compassionate and concerned individual who will explain to you more gently and with greater sympathy the reason why he can do as little for you as his predecessor did,...

We will not niggle with Deputy Fitzgerald the way he niggled with the Minister for Agriculture.

Deputy Kelly is trying to stop me and the reason I niggled with the Minister for Agriculture was in Deputy Kelly's interest as well as mine. I note an interesting little battle being waged between Deputy Barry and Deputy Bruton on the one side and other Deputies, more closely associated with the building trade, on the other. I should like to know who is telling the truth about a building project in Cork near Innishannon. On 16th February the Minister for Industry and Energy spoke about a £75 million investment in land, buildings, plant and machinery for that project. Deputy Barry supported that figure. It was also said that it would give employment to 800 people but we think that figure could not be correct and that the Government are trying to cloud the issue. What is the correct number of jobs which will be provided? I suggest it is between 250 and 400 jobs but we are entitled to know the truth.

The biggest problems facing the country at present are unemployment and job creation. The Youth Employment Agency was established with a lot of pomp and publicity. It was a product of a Labour Party document prior to the election and the members of the board were named during the February 1982 election campaign. The chief executive was appointed by the Minister for Labour the day before I assumed office in March 1982. Mark you, the CEO was a former adviser to the Labour Party Minister for Labour. Despite that, when a member of the agency kicked up a public fuss I defended that appointment privately and publicly. It was a good appointment, I thought. I thought it was above politics and I defended it in the public interest and in the national interest. Strangely enough, the individual who created the fuss is now an adviser in the Minister of State's office in the Department of Labour and so I begin to wonder was there as much interest in job creation by the Youth Employment Agency as there was in fixing up certain people?

Now why am I being critical of the agency? It is because no progress is being made. We were told in May there would be a new announcement on community involvement and development. Nothing happened in May. In June the Minister said it would be launched. We are now heading into the middle of July and it has not been launched. Yesterday Deputy Flynn spoke about the food subsidies. I am glad he did because there should be some protector of the underprivileged. I add my voice to that of Deputy Flynn and I warn Labour Party Ministers in Government: hands off subsidies.

What progress has been made by The Youth Employment Agency? I supported it even when I saw political appointments were being made. I supported it in the national interest and in the interest of our young people. Progress has been very limited indeed. There is some concern about other agencies and, instead of having greater co-ordination, there would seem to be more clashes now than there were prior to the agency being set up. I will support any move made by the agency but I warn the Government now that young people are becoming disillusioned. No jobs have been created. Some training programmes which were already in existence before the agency started have been supported by it financially and otherwise but I do not know of any new steps being taken by it.

The present state of industrial relations, the strikes and rumours of strikes are the result of the budgetary policies of the Minister for Finance. I sympathise to a certain extent with the Minister for Labour who seems prepared to stand back and let everything solve itself. That is not much help to Deputy Kelly's constituents who are suffering as the result of a strike in Dublin Corporation. There has been no intervention by the Minister for Labour, by the Tánaiste and, indeed, no word from the Government benches. I was pilloried on many occasions and asked what I was doing about strikes and one of those who pilloried me was Deputy Kelly. He is keeping very quiet now when his own Ministers are allowing a similar situation to develop. Let us hear from Deputy Kelly. Let us hear him tell the Ministers to go and do something. I spent many weekends in the Department helping by way of intervention when I could, perhaps, have been working in the interests of my constituents. As Minister one has to accept the responsibilities that go with the office as well as enjoying the benefits. The central plank in our platform is unemployment and the patent neglect of this Government to do anything about it. The policies adopted appear to be clearly signalling 250,000 or more unemployed by the year's end. That situation is the responsibility of this Government. Stop preaching gloom and doom. Stop downgrading activity and stop insinuating it is a sin to be associated with or to work in a State-sponsored company.

I heard a good part of Deputy Haughey's speech and all of Deputy Gene Fitzgerald's and I hope neither will be unduly offended if I say both speeches radiate staleness and flatness. Both were about as exciting as one's sensations on going into a room in an unoccupied house and finding the only literature with which to while away half an hour is the 1968 Telephone Directory. I could hear nothing in what I heard of Deputy Haughey's speech or Deputy Fitzgerald's that could remotely be classified by even the most friendly critic as a new idea. They said nothing that gave me a second's surprise or stimulation.

I know it is not easy to produce the answers, and the Opposition have to do their best, but their best on this occasion is pretty much like their best on other occasions and, to be fair to them, I do not suppose a great deal worse than contributions from us when we sat on the Opposition benches. However, I cannot let Deputy Haughey's contribution go without drawing a contrast between the message of hope he was trying to extract from the Government and the certitude he was anxious to express that there were hundreds of thousands of jobs only waiting to be created. I cannot help contrasting that with his performance when he was actually in the seat of power itself. When he was there — I do not regard it as disobliging of me to point out something like this—nothing happened except that all the economic indicators steadily got worse and everybody knew why they were going to get worse. It was because he, although having promised to perform, embarked on measures of utter recklessness in the latter part of the 1979 to 1981 period and continued those measures of recklessness during the brief interim when he was here a little over a year ago.

In addition to all the indicators getting worse, in addition, in other words, to unemployment continually rising—although he now apparently has the secret of finding hundreds of thousands of jobs at the drop of a hat—in addition to the State's debt going through the ceiling, in addition to the trade deficit reaching new records every time it was published, we had all that and we had continuous scandals too. We had grotesque mismanagement of the economy, at least if I am to go by the indicators which were the worst things happening to go by, and bad standards as well as non-stop skulduggery and throat cutting, non-stop intrigue, non-stop headlines which only had the effect in the end of distracting people's minds from things to which they ought to have been attending.

We had all that. We had the recklessness plus the scandals plus the equally reckless mismanagement of the country's external relations in matters, at any rate, concerning the North of Ireland and Britain. He appeared to go out of his way to leave this country in a worse situation than he found it. Even when there was no need for him to open his mouth, he appeared to look for a way of leaving us in the doghouse with the British, and not just with the British, which is not difficult, but with most of the rest of the EEC. At the time of the Falklands crisis there was no need for him to go out on a limb about that. There was no need for him to take up the line he did but that had to be done in order to conciliate the most primitive strata of domestic opinion. These are the predominant factions with which Fianna Fáil sympathise. They relentlessly fix their eyes on whatever is primitive and Deputy Haughey says to himself that, if he can get hold of what is primitive, there is a penumbra of about 30 to 35 per cent of the rest of the vote that will be dragged along by a kind of magnetic attraction. That is one of the secrets of Fianna Fáil's success, which I have to salute.

Looked at as an exercise in electoral politics it has been very successful down the years. But if we are trying to grow up a bit, if we are trying to pull ourselves out of the village standards that have damned us for the last 60 years, we will have to do better than that and pass up the opportunity to flatter primitive people with primitive ideas. We will have to resist the urge to be well thought of by the most unreflecting people in the country and the most savage.

When Deputy Haughey was speaking this morning I distinctly heard him speaking about plastic bullets. As it happens, I agree with him about them. But I did not hear him — at any rate, not in that part of his speech — say anything about the rally that will take place in Mullaghmore this weekend to commemorate nothing really except the murder of four innocent people, not one of whom, even the best known, ever did the country any harm and the presence of whom in that place on the day they were murdered had nothing to do with the North of Ireland. Perhaps I should not be so positive as I did not hear all of his speech, but I certainly noticed that while he spoke about the brutality of the British using plastic bullets — as I say I tend to agree that plastic bullets should be banned — he did not go out of his way to lend any moral support to the Government in the attitude they have rightly felt obliged to take in regard to this rally.

It is a scandal and a disgrace. It shows a new low in the moral sensitivity of the country when not only will groups acknowledge murders, claim murders, but celebrate murders. I know that ostensibly it is for a different purpose. But do not tell me that in the whole western or even the north-western seaboard there was nowhere else which might have been used for that purpose. Do not tell me that there was no decent person somewhere in the ranks of their advisers, down to and including Deputy Blaney, who expressed some reservation about it, who would have said: "Wait a moment, there is a kind of level beyond which we ought not to sink if only for public relations purposes". If that voice existed it was ignored. I did not hear Deputy Haughey or any of his party add their voice and throw their weight into the moral scale to try to rescue the country from the jungle.

I am not impressed by the message of hope and all the sunburstary about the hundreds of thousands of jobs from a man and a faction in a party who have caused such misery to the country on the economic scene and on every other scene. Before I leave the subject of Deputy Haughey, I want to say that when he pleaded we should not always be blaming his party for things that have gone wrong, I am inclined to sympathise with that too. The condition the country has reached is one more for sorrow than for anger. He is right in thinking that more must be expected from a Government than merely finding people to blame for the situation they have to deal with. But Deputy Haughey is about the last man in Ireland from whom such words can come with any grace or conviction.

I want to review, as quickly as the time available to me will allow me, the last seven months during which the Government have been here. While I heard Deputy Gene Fitzgerald invite me to attack Ministers on the Front Bench for not settling strikes and to contrast my silence in that regard with what he thinks was my loquacity when he was Minister for Labour — I did not ever make much of a meal out of strikes except the postal strike — I will have a couple of things to say which may not be very welcome to them, if they bother about them at all, in regard to the Government's performance during the last seven months. As everybody knows, the Government — there is no need to be mealy-mouthed about it — resulted from a political bargain. I acknowledge that in all bargains it necessarily means that somebody has to forego something in order to gain something. There is no need to be upstage about that. It has had the result that, so far from the submersion of the Labour Party Deputy Gene Fitzgerald was shedding tears about ten minutes ago, the Government — the big end, numerically speaking, which still is the Fine Gael Party — have been committed to at least two measures which have nothing to do with Fine Gael philosophy and which this party, left to themselves would, I believe, never have committed themselves to. Neither of them is insignificant and both of them are of a certain degree of importance. I hope they are not the forerunners of other things to come.

It has to be acknowledged that they were fairly spelled out as part of the Government's programme when they took office. I criticised them at that time and I have to criticise them again now. The first one is the provision in the Finance Bill for the residential property tax, about which I said enough on that occasion. It is a form of taxation with no basis in reason and I believe very little basis in justice. Alone among my party, I have always defended a wealth tax—not necessarily in all particulars the wealth tax of 1975—for reasons. I will not repeat now. I do not defend an irrational, ideologically inspired assault on only one visible form of wealth. It may not even be wealth because in computing liability for this tax we are not allowed to take into account the equity—in other words, the extent to which the occupant of the House actually owns it as well. That measure was wished on us—I do not want to make a meal of this—by the Labour Party and wished on the country by the Labour Party. It is no more outrageous in its way—to use the word "outrageous" about it is perhaps to say too much about it—but it is no more unreasonable in its way than things wished on the country when Fianna Fáil were in office by the even smaller number of Deputies whom they had to conciliate. I feel I have to keep saying that, when the smoke has cleared away after these deals, whether we are the big end of them or the Fianna Fáil Party, the majority of the people are getting what the majority of them do not want. If that is democracy it is time we asked ourselves if it does not require a rebore.

Another measure I am sorry to see the Government having gone along with, although it too was fairly and squarely signalled at the beginning of their term, are the provisions in the Postal and Telecommunications Bill which confer a monoply on the new companies. If a postal service or a telecommunications service is working properly, I would defend the monoply. If the service is working properly it is possible to compete with it unfairly by, as the Post Office workers very correctly say, singling out the profitable routes and trying to muscle in on them while not bothering with the unprofitable ones. That is one reason why I would defend the monopoly of the public service when it actually is functioning and I would defend it also for reasons of order in the sphere of telecommunications. I would not defend it when the service has closed down. We have succeeded with this Bill in making criminals out of people who propose to offer the public a substitute service, call it a courier service or anything you like, at a time when there may be no postal service in the country, as was the case for five months in 1979.

I have to obey party discipline and it is not a point so serious as to be one of conscience. I will not leave the party over it, vote against it or anything like that. I want for myself to disclaim and disavow any belief in that dimension of the Postal Bill. I believe it is constitutionally objectionable. Even if I am wrong about that, it is politically objectionable and it is not the kind of thing the Fine Gael Party are about and I believe it is not the kind of thing the Fianna Fáil Party are about either.

I want to disavow and disclaim any idea for myself that what comes first in dealing with the public service is the interests of the employees. That is not true and it is a shame and an abandonment of one's responsibility merely, in order to flatter a powerful union, not to say that clearly. In the operation of a public service the interests of the public come first. The public interest comes first in judging a public service and secondly — although it may be a close second, it may be a very good second — and only secondly comes the interests of the employees. I consider that to incorporate in legislation a provision which will put their interests uppermost in order to prevent competition, even when they have decided to close the service down, is something which this State is not all about, this party is not all about and the big party on the other side is not all about either. I do not need to emphasise, because I am sure it will be done from the Opposition benches.

Debate adjourned.
Sitting suspended at 1.30 p.m. and resumed at 2.30 p.m.
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