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Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 6 Dec 1983

Vol. 346 No. 6

Order of Business.

It is proposed to take No. 6. By agreement Private Members' Business will be Nos. 15 and 50.

I know you share with me, Sir, the desirability of having all major and important announcements of a political nature made in this House rather than outside it. You know also, Sir, that I have been seeking information here for some considerable time, without success, about the publication of the Book of Estimates. As you probably know yourself, and many others also, the Minister for Finance, in a statement on the radio on Sunday, gave some indication of the publication of the Book of Estimates.

The Deputy may ask a question ——

I just want to give you the background so that you will fully understand the import of my question. Apart from deploring the fact that apparently the Minister for Finance is prepared to give information on the radio he is not prepared to give in this House, might I ask the Tánaiste, now present, through you, Sir, if he will now tell us when the Book of Estimates will be published and whether it is intended that the Estimates should be debated in this House before the Christmas recess?

I will be glad to answer Deputy Haughey's request. The Book of Estimates will be published next week and obviously it is hoped to discuss them in this House before the Christmas recess.

I am sure the Tánaiste is aware that next week consists of a number of days. Could he give us a precise date of publication?

Hear, hear.

Surely the Book of Estimates has now been settled by the Government, presumably gone for printing. Can the Tánaiste tell us what date next week we will get the Book of Estimates and, if possible, what arrangements have been made for a debate on them in this House, as has been promised so frequently by the Government?

Name the date.

It is hoped to publish the Book of Estimates on Wednesday or Thursday next week. It is a matter between the Whips to arrange for a discussion in this House on those Estimates.

Dealing with the Order of the Business of the House, are the Government prepared to give a firm undertaking that ample time will be given the House to discuss the Book of Estimates and all its implications before the House rises?

Yes, I think that undertaking can be given. I can assure the Leader of the Opposition personally that I have no objection to sitting here on Christmas Day if they want time to discuss the Estimates.

Nor would I. No bravado.

They will get the time.

The Government promised the Book of Estimates last September.

And the Opposition are getting the time.

Cén fá ar dhiúltaigh tú cead a thabhairt ceist phráinneach faoi Údarás na Gaeltachta a fhreagairt anseo inniu? Cén fá ar dhiúltaigh an tAire agus tusa an cead a thabhairt don Teach ó tharla gur cheist phráinneach é agus go bhfuil sé á phlé taobh amuigh den Dáil?

Ní raibh an cheist in ord ar fhreagra príobháideach.

Cén fá?

Má thagann an Teachta go dtí mo sheomra pléidhfidh mé an cheist sin.

(Cur Isteach.)

Give it here in the House.

The Chair is proceeding strictly in accordance with Standing Orders. When the Chair received the question this morning, as is customary, invariably he received advice from his advisers. Having fully considered that advice he ruled the matter out of order on Private Notice.

I also want to say, arising out of what Deputy G. Collins said, that the refusal of occupants of the Chair to have their ruling discussed in the House goes back a very long time; it goes back to the foundation——

There is no request for a discussion on your ruling, Sir. We want to know why you gave your ruling?

I have given the ruling and that is the end of the matter as far as the House is concerned. If the House want to change that procedure the Chair——

May I put a point to you, Sir, on this matter? You are, I am sure, aware, as is everybody else in this House, that there is, to put it mildly, very widespread public interest in this matter. Perhaps I might go further and say there is widespread public disquiet about the matter. In these circumstances, Sir, if you persist in your ruling — and of course you are perfectly entitled to persist — that this Private Notice Question, which in our view is strictly within the terms of Standing Orders, cannot be allowed, would you permit me to ask the Tánaiste if he will arrange some time today to have the appropriate Minister make a statement to the House on this very grave matter because it is one which is causing great public unease throughout the country?

The position, Deputy Haughey, is that such a question would beg another question and it is precisely that that Standing Orders seek to prevent. As I said last week, there seems to be a very harmonious working relationship between the Whips, and I suggest that Deputy Haughey would have those channels explored.

As you know, the Whips can only put into operation, and make technical arrangements therefor, something which the Government would decide to agree to. I am suggesting to the Tánaiste in particular, and to Aire na Gaeltachta who is sitting beside him, that this is a matter of very far-reaching implications. All sorts of suspicions, rumours and counter-rumours are circulating. It is very much in the public interest that a clear unequivocal statement be made by the Minister today about the matter. If that course of action does not recommend itself to the Government we will have to pursue the matter through other channels. In particular, we will be pressing for a judicial inquiry into this matter. At this stage the least we are entitled to is a clear statement from the Minister in justification, if that is possible, of his actions in this.

I have ruled this matter out of order. I am calling the next business.

I wish to raise on the Adjournment the very serious problem that has arisen in Dundalk, Carlingford and other Border towns and villages as a result of the unwise economic policy being pursued by the Government.

Has the Deputy a question to ask?

It is creating bankruptcies because of the millions of pounds being spent each week north of the Border.

The Chair will communicate with the Deputy.

Is the reason why you have not allowed the question put by Deputy Gallagher and other Fianna Fáil Front Bench Members that in your interpretation the Minister for the Gaeltacht is not responsible for the actions of the board of Údarás na Gaeltachta in dismissing the chief executive?

I have the benefit of very experienced advice. I have got that advice. I have considered it carefully and at some length. It would be far easier for the Chair to allow such a question. I have ruled the question out on the grounds that it does not meet the criteria laid down for Private Notice Questions and in pursuance of very long standing practice in the House I will not allow a discussion on my ruling.

The House must be made to realise that a serious travesty of justice is being perpetrated against the former chief executive of Údarás na Gaeltachta——

The Deputy is being disorderly and I am asking him please to co-operate with the Chair. The Chair has been generous with the Deputy and allowed him to have an Adjournment debate on the question. As well, a three-hour debate was permitted——

The chief executive had not been suspended then. The Minister had not interfered at that time with the membership of the board. Surely it is reasonable for this side of the House to speak out on the concern expressed throughout the length and breadth of the land because of the action of the Minister? The Minister is now in the unconstitutional position of being the accounting officer of the Department and the chairman of the board——

Would Deputy Molloy please resume his seat?

I have no intention of being put out of the House because I will not deny myself the opportunity to speak out on this matter.

The Deputy will have to find an orderly way to do that.

I wish to raise on the Adjournment the irresponsible manner in which RTE News has been dealing with the poultry problem in Monaghan. They have been giving stale news on the matter and this is doing harm to the industry.

I want to ask the Tánaiste if his attention has been drawn to a report in today's Cork Examiner that a dispute is threatening the future of Gouldings Limited in Cork and if he will arrange with the Minister for Labour to take immediate steps to save the jobs——

That does not arise on the Order of Business.

Of course it does.

The Chair is the judge of what arises on the Order of Business.

Surely if jobs are threatened in my city I am entitled to raise the matter?

There is another way to explore the possibility.

What is the other way?

I want to ask why you have ruled out the private notice question in relation to the proposed illegal television station in Dublin?

The Deputy must not have been listening to me, or perhaps I have gone a bit hoarse. I said that the rulings of the Chair, whoever occupies it, cannot be debated in the House. If Deputy Leyden comes to my room I will discuss the matter with him.

Would the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs indicate to us if he has a proposal to bring a Bill to the House urgently to ensure that illegal television broadcasting will not be allowed to commence in Dublin?

It does not arise on the Order of Business.

How can I raise otherwise such a very important matter?

There are ways in which the Deputy can do it.

I am asking you for assistance and guidance as to how I can do it.

I have told the Deputy he may come to my room.

I intend to raise on the Adjournment the exorbitant overcharging of telephone subscribers by the Department. Since I gave notice of my intention to raise this many people have been on to me from all sides of the House who agree that this matter should be raised. Indeed, members of the Press Gallery, the staff and people from all over the country are anxious to hear about this.

I wish to raise on the Adjournment the question of illegal TV broadcasting in Dublin.

I will communicate with the Deputies.

Ba mhaith liom a fhiafraí an bhfuil Aire na Gaeltachta sásta freagra a thabhairt ar an cheist a chuir mé, ó tharla nach raibh an Tánaiste sásta freagra a thabhairt don Teachta Haughey maidir le am a thabhairt dúinn an cheist a phlé. Ba mhaith liom fógra a thabhairt duit go bhfuil fúm an cheist seo a árdú roimh athló na Dála anocht.

I have ruled the matter out of order.

He only wants to raise it on the Adjournment.

I will communicate with the Deputy.

I wish to raise the following matters on the Adjournment: the personal consultant to the Minister for the Gaeltacht, a Mr. Benson, having a telephone conversation with a journalist relating to matters inimical to Udarás na Gaeltachta; the Secretary of the Department of the Gaeltacht trying to make an arrangement with the former chief executive, Mr. Flynn, whereby he would not disclose the contents of that telephone conversation between Mr. Benson and the journalist in which reference was made to a Fine Gael member of Údarás na Gaeltachta.

I will communicate with the Deputy.

Is it proposed that the Minister for Fisheries and Forestry will make a statement regarding the negotiations in relation to the replacement for an export subsidy on mackerel? I understand that talks have taken place — and hopefully they have terminated successfully — between the Minister's officials, BIM and officials from Europe. We in the industry and on this side of the House are very anxious to find a replacement and hopefully, the Minister will have some good news. I am sure the Minister would welcome an opportunity to give a reply——

He will have to find another opportunity because it is not the practice to raise such a matter in this way. Deputy Tunney.

He may use other channels——

I would like to raise on the Adjournment the circumstances under which servants of the Minister for Justice almost threatened and denied to an Irish citizen the right to speak in the Irish language.

The Chair will communicate with the Deputy.

Considering revelations that have been made concerning Údarás na Gaeltachta since it was last debated in this House and the considerable political importance of some of the matters referred to by Deputy Molloy now about which you will communicate with him, would you not think it reasonable that the Minister for the Gaeltacht — who seems to be quite happy to make a statement about this matter now to clear up the whole political mess which he has created — would seek a chance to justify his actions——

I have ruled the question out of order.

The Leader of my party asked if the Minister for the Gaeltacht would be prepared to make a statement and there seems to be some discussion going on between the Tánaiste and the Minister for the Gaeltacht——

(Interruptions.)

The Deputy is being disorderly.

Is it not reasonable to ask the Tánaiste, following the discussions he had with the Minister for the Gaeltacht——

It is not reasonable to raise this matter in a disorderly way. I am calling Deputy Séamus Brennan.

There is considerable political skullduggery going on from that side of the House and it is only proper that the Minister for the Gaeltacht should justify his stance——

(Interruptions).

Deputy S. Brennan.

On the Order of Business, is it the intention for the Minister for Justice to make a statement to the House concerning the recent RTE programme on drugs, in particular the activities of illegal organisations in certain parts of this city?

That is not in order.

Would the Minister make a statement on the activities of these illegal organisations?

What State board is next for the chop? Can any of them feel safe any longer?

We know where the final chop will fall.

I would like to raise on the Adjournment the question of the recently announced insurance increases.

The Chair will communicate with the Deputy.

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