Deputy Hugh Byrne has sought and has been granted permission to raise on the Adjournment the apparent overcharging for telephone services by the Department of Posts and Telegraphs. He has 20 minutes.
Adjournment Debate. - Telephone Accounts.
Have we a Minister?
He will be here in a short time.
I thank you, Sir, for the opportunity to raise this most important matter. I wonder if it is worth while raising it as we have not a Minister here to listen to the debate.
Perhaps the Deputy will wait a moment.
Certainly, I will be glad to oblige. The Minister is very welcome. The matter I am raising is the exorbitant overcharging by the Department of Posts and Telegraphs of telephone subscribers. In recent months the Department have gone berserk with their charges. A normal household telephone bill on average over a period of years has been £70, yet the subscriber receives a bill for £150, £220 and even £2,000. That subscriber will then complain to the Department that his telephone bill is completely out of all proportion and is told: "No, the Department are never wrong. The meter related to the subscriber's number has been checked and found to be in order." Then, to add insult to injury, they say: "You pay up in seven days or you will be cut off. Do not bother us with your complaints. The Department of Posts and Telegraphs are above making mistakes. Our equipment, unlike any other equipment anywhere in the world, is not capable of making mistakes, can never break down, can never over-meter. All you people who complain must be cranks. You have a cheek in suggesting to us that our Department would do anything so unseemly or so unthinkable as to over-charge. If your account has risen from the normal £70 to £2,000 you made the calls, and that is final. We do not care whether it was not physically possible to make the calls. You made them and that is it. Pay up in seven days or else. Our staff, engineers, technologists and the Minister, everybody, we are all infallible". That sums up the attitude of the Department of Posts and Telegraphs to a problem that is widespread throughout this country.
Subscribers everywhere are complaining of overcharging. A special committee has been set up in Naas, County Kildare, to deal with that problem in their area and to bring pressure to bear to clear up this terrible mess. Public meetings are being held in different parts of the country to discuss and allay the fears of many who have been overcharged and who are told to shut up, pay up or be cut off.
Since I have indicated my intention to raise this item many Members of this House have told me that this problem is the one they hear most about in their clinics. Several Members themselves have complained that they have found difficulties with the Department of Posts and Telegraphs and representations on their own behalf proved fruitless.
That is not true in all cases.
Members of this staff, members of the press and every area of the community are affected, including the industrial sector. They have all complained to me, and I am sure to the Minister, from time to time. Worst of all is the case of the old age pensioner living alone in a remote area whose average telephone bill is £30 and whose every call is logged meticulously. His bill on this occasion is £140. He has not the money to pay his bill, his health is not good. Now his telephone is cut off. His last remaining line of communication is broken and his insistence that he is overcharged is met with hard-heartedness. Is he really expected under threat of being cut off, to pay £110 for a service he did not receive? Think of the consequent hardship, worry and possibly worse. Is this type of skullduggery extortion under another name?
Very recently a meeting was held at Rosslare Strand to discuss this issue. Every telephone subscriber in the area was notified and 40 subscribers attended, all 40 having had difficulty with the Department of Posts and Telegraphs. In each case their new bill was far beyond the average. I suppose we were fortunate in that two officials of the Department turned up, but their attitude to us was that subscribers misunderstand the telephone charges. The following is what they told us. In regard to duration, subscribers are rarely aware of exactly how long they are on a call. Research shows that most people when timed on short duration calls claim they have spent only three minutes on the telephone when in fact they have spent ten minutes. They went on to give the impression that subscribers' misunderstandings caused all the problems and caused this vast over-metering and it is only of late that these vast overcharges have been imposed.
We have lived with overcharging for quite a while but only within the past year has it gone out of all proportion. This was told to the Department officials in no uncertain terms. They heard that it is not only now that people stay on the telephone for more than three minutes. This has been happening through the years, but only now the overcharging has come to a head.
In answer to a Dáil question on Rosslare Strand which I put down I was told that there was no increase overall. In other words, the 40 subscribers who turned up and complained must have been telling lies or at least untruths but certainly what they said was not right. Nobody in the hall that night having heard that answer would agree and they can hardly all be wrong. In answer to a Dáil question on the Rosslare harbour area I was told that the equipment in the exchange failed and this caused some over-metering. Lo and behold, the equipment owned by the Department of Posts and Telegraphs can go wrong. It can malfunction. If it could malfunction in that instance, then it can malfunction in several other areas and my contention is that that has been happening and that the Department of Posts and Telegraphs have been leading people a merry dance and almost stealing money from them. This is not good enough. In another instance in Rosslare Strand a person had two lines one of which he was disputing. He paid the account on the other up to date, yet both lines were cut off without notice. Is that type of activity acceptable in this day and age? Very recently in answer to a question here in the House the Minister said that meters for individual subscribers will be placed at the subscriber's discretion in residence or office. This should be an advantage but it will not solve the problem. The problem is at the source, and that is where the Minister has to tackle it.
Next January An Bord Telecom will take over. Will they behave in the same way as the Department of Posts and Telegraphs? I ask the Minister to ensure that does not happen. The board should make sure that charges to the subscribers are at least accurate. To be asked for money in any instance is not welcome, but to be asked to pay in excess for a telephone service is not on. When one considers the service being offered by the Department of Posts and Telegraphs the whole business of over-charging is quite ridiculous. In some areas in County Wexford it is virtually impossible for a telephone subscriber to get in contact with a neighbouring area. It is now said that it is quicker to travel by car than to make a telephone call in parts of County Wexford. I should like to know if it is true that the Minister has asked AnCO to train people in smoke signals. At least that would be more effective than the present system.
When the Shannon Marine Rescue Service tried to contact five people in Rosslare recently — all of the phones were manned at the time — it took 32 minutes to contact them. In that instance a plane had been lost between Birmingham and Kilkenny. There was a possibility that it was lost at sea and the lifeboat might have had to be called. It took 32 minutes to contact the people, and that is a long time to wait for a lifeboat. I wonder what the Minister intends to do about that matter?
It is not good enough to over-charge in respect of telephone bills, and neither is the attitude of the Minister with regard to this matter. I should like an assurance from him that under the new system the service and public relations will be improved. The Minister should make sure that there is an office available in the main telephone exchange where people can talk with officials about the various queries that may arise. In respect of over-charging, in my opinion extortion is not half strong enough a word to use for the type of activities engaged in by the Department.
I should like to share my time with Deputy Leyden. I support Deputy Byrne in his condemnation of over-charging in respect of telephone bills. In Wexford the problem has become so serious that public meetings are being arranged to take corrective action. Telephone subscribers are suffering grave hardship because of the present lunatic charges imposed by the Department of Posts and Telegraphs. Old age pensioners, working-class people and business people are receiving accounts two and three times greater than their normal bills. I know of old age pensioners who normally have bills in the region of £30 and who are now being charged between £90 and £120. The pensioners are not in a position to pay such amounts and they have no alternative but to get rid of their telephones. As a result, they will suffer hardship and loneliness. The Department of Posts and Telegraphs are adopting a high-handed and callous attitude to the people who query their accounts. Despite the fact that an account is being queried they insist that the telephone be cut off regardless of the consequences. Every query to the Department is answered by the Department with a standard letter on the lines of "we have investigated your account and have found it to be correct". I wonder how much investigation is carried out by the Department? I venture to say none. Subscribers in Rosslare who questioned their accounts received the usual standard letter but on further investigation it was found there was a fault in the line which resulted in 50 per cent over-charging. I should like the Minister to explain why the subscribers were told by the Department that there was no problem.
Telephone subscribers are getting a raw deal. They are being fraudulently done out of money by the Department. I ask the Minister to take immediate action to ensure the matter is resolved. Practically every subscriber is complaining about the large amounts they are being charged. The Minister should carry out an investigation as quickly as possible to ensure subscribers get a fair deal. If they are not given this they will have no alternative but to get rid of their telephones.
I thank the Deputy for allowing me to speak in this debate. I wish to voice my concern in relation to the number of telephone accounts being disputed. On 15 November last in reply to a question put by me the Minister said that a sum of £23.5 million was due to the Department because of disputed accounts. I estimate that would amount to 100,000 consumers who are dissatisfied with the accounting system. That has been confirmed in a case before the courts. A person was charged in the region of £1,000 which he queried and in his wisdom the judge decided that the case put forward by the Department was not justified. I wish to know from the Minister if he proposes to appeal that case or is he admitting at this stage that something is rotten in the state of Denmark as far as accounts are concerned. In view of the number of representations I receive regularly from all parts of the country, I must accept that there is something radically wrong in the Department's accounting system.
The only solution I can see is that meters be provided by the Department in consumers' homes. When a dispute arises the Department should offer to give a meter to the consumer without charge. The meters in the exchanges are not above reproach. They are mechanical machines that will and can go wrong. They have been wrong on some occasions and, as a result, people have been charged excessive amounts. In the dying days of the Department of Posts and Telegraphs, I ask the Minister to intervene in relation to the accounts system and to bring about a radical overhaul there. At this stage I think it right to call for a public inquiry into the accounts system of the Department. Nothing less will satisfy the consumers.
The Minister refused to tell me the number of consumers involved when I put a question to him on 15 November. However, if £23.5 million was due to the Department at that time and if the subscribers were in dispute to the tune of a few hundred pounds, I estimate the number of consumers to be in the region on 100,000. Nothing less than a public inquiry will satisfy the consumer organisation started by Walter Figgis and his wife, an organisation that is highlighting many of the injustices in the Department. A judicial inquiry should be set up into the accounts system of the Department. All of the 100,000 consumers cannot be wrong. The points raised by my colleagues, Deputy Byrne and Deputy Browne, are justified. There was a special problem in the Wexford area but it is countrywide at this stage. The number of complaints is increasing every day and I do not believe Bord Telecom will solve the problem. I call on the Minister to hold a public inquiry into the inadequate accounting system in the Department of Posts and Telegraphs.
I want to ask one question.
The Deputy may put a question when the Minister is finished.
I have referred previously in the House to the fairly widespread perception that there is something wrong with our telephone billing system. The repeated criticism of the system in this House and elsewhere is a cause for serious concern. Confidence in the system is being eroded and subscribers are being led to believe that the system is generally inaccurate and unreliable. The damage to the telephone system would be incalculable if this persisted.
I reiterate what I have said before. The metering equipment used by my Department is of international design similar to that used in many of the most efficient telecommunications administrations elsewhere. It is highly reliable. Incorrect metering due to faulty equipment is extremely rare. There are standard procedures in operation in the Department which are designed to ensure that on the rare occasions when a fault occurs it comes under notice promptly.
Any general analysis of the bills issued by my Department indicates that there is no question of inflated bills being issued this year as compared with previous years. In fact the average amount charged per subscriber for telephone calls in 1983 was less than the amount charged in 1982 when increases in charges are discounted. I remind Deputy Leyden that he was the Minister of State at that time.
Why then is there so much concern with the billing system? There are a number of reasons worth mentioning. The first is that after two prolonged strikes by members of the Irish Post Office Engineering Union and the Post Office Workers' Union at the end of the seventies, there were huge arrears of telephone revenue to be collected. People got bills for six months instead of the usual three months and bills were sent out in quick succession. This gave rise to an enormous volume of queries, the treatment of which was inevitably delayed because of the numbers of cases involved and the arrears of revenue that had to be collected.
When they came to be dealt with, many of them in 1981 and 1982, subscribers were given the benefit of the doubt and rebates were allowed where records were not available, ever though in most cases the bills were in fact correct.
By whose standards?
However, ironically, people assumed that because they got rebates mistakes had been made and this generated a lack of confidence in the system.
Secondly, charges for telephone services were increased very substantially during the last few years and subscribers do not always advert to the fact that increased bills do not necessarily reflect an increase in the number of units being charged for.
Thirdly, a sustained campaign of criticism of the billing system was mounted by a small group. Most of this criticism was inaccurate and irresponsible but unfortunately many people were influenced by it — even possibly some Dáil Deputies.
That is a load of rubbish.
The Deputy should let the Minister reply. Order.
Fourthly, some incorrect bills are issued, far fewer now than in the past, but where there is a lack of confidence in a system and such errors are publicised, the significance of a relatively small number of mistakes, which is an inevitable feature of any system involving human beings, is exaggerated out of all proportions.
The billing system has been and will continue to be kept under regular review to refine and improve it still further. One area of serious concern at present is the undue delay which occurs in too many cases in responding promptly to compaints or inquiries by customers. While the number of complaints nationwide is decreasing, the volume is still large and every effort is being made to deal with them promptly within the resources available.
How many?
I gave details to Deputy Leyden in reply to a parliamentary question.
It is a pointless exercise.
I am sure that Bord Telecom Éireann who will take over responsibility for the service from 1 January 1984 will pay particular attention to this aspect of the billing system.
A second concern has been that subscribers have no visual means of checking their use and the telephone bill merely indicates the number of metered units. In order to enable subscribers to check their own use where they are not happy with their bills, my Department have ordered private meters which can be installed in subscribers' premises. They are now available for rental at £6 per quarter and the installation charge is £12.
In other words, the Minister is admitting there is a problem.
I am not admitting anything. If the Deputy will listen I will explain.
Why are meters being offered?
If the Deputy does not know the system, I will explain it to him. The Deputy was totally inaccurate in many of the things he said but I did not bother to interrupt him because he does not know very much about it. When I tried to explain it to him he would not let me continue.
Where was I inaccurate?
Order, please.
The number of units registered on a meter will be accepted by the Department if it can be clearly shown that there has been no tampering with the meter and no attempt to defraud.
The fact that meters are being put in is an admission that the billing system is wrong.
We are providing meters so that people can check the number of units used. There is no other reason. The delay in providing the meters was caused by extensive trials under laboratory conditions and under actual operating conditions to ensure their reliability. They are extremely up-to-date. Similar models are used in highly efficient telephone administrations.
They are already two years out of date.
Three Deputies were allowed to speak and it is not good enough that the Minister is being interrupted.
We have heard all this rubbish before.
Another possible solution to allay subscriber doubts is detailed billing which provides details of subscriber-dialled trunk calls. A small pilot scheme on these lines is being carried out this quarter in the Naas exchange area. I am advised that Bord Telecom Éireann are considering providing this facility for subscribers who want it but this service would, of course, have to be paid for.
Before I conclude I would like to mention one other point. Subscriber dialling to Northern Ireland was introduced at the end of last year and was extended to all of Britain in the early summer. It is the general experience, not only here but in other administrations, that in the initial stages of a facility to dial long distance calls, subscribers do not advert to the length of their calls and can incur quite heavy charges on such calls. They get a very unpleasant surprise when they get their telephone bills subsequently. This probably explains increases in metered units in recent telephone accounts received by some subscribers.
I will conclude by repeating that the telephone billing system is generally reliable, that complaints or queries by subscribers are examined carefully, that in the small percentage of cases in which a mistake has been made it is corrected and an amended bill issued. The system is reviewed regularly and such a review is underway at present.
I am aware also that Bord Telecom Éireann are very conscious of the need to improve the system further and I understand that they have some plans drawn up to achieve this.
On 1 January Bord Telecom Éireann will take over from the Department. I have quite a number of headaches over the telephone billing system and I hope that Bord Telecom Éireann will be half as tolerant in dealing with complaints as I have been.
How can the Department justify a bill for £150 for a period when the telephone was cut off? This is factual information. Like Opposition Members, I am concerned——
A question is all that is permitted.
My second question relates to a case where the metering system registered 50 units and the bill was for 1,537 units. That does not make sense. There is something wrong with the metering system.
If the Deputy will give me details of these cases I will have them investigated.
The Dáil adjourned at 9 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Wednesday, 7 December 1983.