It is an unfair denial to the people of Finglas. The Minister or his officers must have known that this letter was being issued. That is the reason I am accepting that the Minister has shelved that responsibility and that I am dissenting from any co-operation in providing the money he seeks. I would not want our spokesman or my party to come out in sympathy with me but at least I have the opportunity to say in the House, as it is my responsibility to do, to the Minister for Transport that he is walking away from his responsibility to those people. He might ask if I know that on occasions a, b or c, a CIE conductor reported that somebody had attacked him. I can tell him that CIE bus conductors have been attacked on every route in Dublin and arrangements have been made for CIE, in co-operation with the Minister for Justice and the local gardaí to continue providing the service. What is special about this area that this co-operation is not being provided? I do not want to be flippant about such a serious matter but surely if it is not safe for a double decker bus to move through a particular area the logical development of that is that it is much less safe for people who have to walk that distance.
I do not know of anybody who has been attacked, mugged or beaten in that area to any greater extent than happens in any other part of the city of Dublin, Cork, Limerick or anywhere else. Will we give more money to CIE without an assurance being given to me that the service, which the people are entitled to and which CIE are required to provide under law, will be denied to those people any longer? At times like this of goodwill towards all men we have to think of the poor widow, the old age pensioner and the unfortunate woman with the two children travelling here and there. I am referring to this because it is fact rather than to add anything special to my point.
We have often heard reference to the person described as the ordinary worker. I never use the word "ordinary" because we are all very ordinary workers. We know in this time of mass unemployment how difficult it is for people to obtain normal nine to five employment and how we should be prepared to assist them to obtain employment at any time during the day and from five or six o'clock in the evening up to 11 a.m. at night. Is the gratitude we are prepared to give to any industrious person, who is prepared to go out to work during those hours, that we tell that person that in relation to the transport system such a person cannot have public transport after 9 o'clock if he or she lives in a particular area. We are telling such a person to move elsewhere and public transport will be provided up to 11.30 p.m. although many people in other areas are not contributing to the same extent to the State as are the PAYE workers in that area.
I feel I am understating my case. I cannot understand, when I hear people at parliamentary party meetings in other areas trying to justify why buses should run up the side of a mountain to bring down two or three people because it is a social service, why a service is not being provided for the people in the area I am talking about. How can CIE justify sending out an articulated lorry to deliver a child's pram or something of that nature because they are obliged under the Act to do that? I accept they have that social obligation and we can never hold up the mirror of precise enonomics to an organisation who have such an obligation but that is some distance from the situation where there is a ready market available to them and they will not serve it. I often wonder if that is the reason they do not supply it.
I would not make a case under circumstances in which CIE can be accused of being more interested in avoiding customers than in picking them up. This is a specific case where CIE are not providing a service. We must be conscious of the fact that anything said here can always be used in evidence against them. I am never afraid to say what I think. Will the Minister tell me if those CIE workers are paid to work until 9 o'clock only? In the past were they paid to work until 7 o'clock only? What happens about the ghost bus that delivers CIE employees to the area and appears there at midnight? Is there something special or unusual about that bus that the occupants do not fear any of the attacks that excuses them from giving the service earlier? I hope the Minister comments on that when replying.
I have other thoughts on CIE and our transport system but I am leaving them aside so that I can major in what is most vital to me and the people I represent. I now have an opportunity to expand on this. I am not inviting strictures from the Chair but I notice that although I have been referring in my contribution to the absence of a service in my constituency the Chair did not see fit to regard that as not relevant to the Bill under discussion. I am not inviting a reprimand from the Chair but I know the Chair must accept the appropriateness of those comments in circumstances where money is being sought from taxpayers. I welcome the opportunity to state that I am opposed to granting any further moneys on the basis I refer to.
I shall move from Finglas to the centre of the city now. While travelling from Doyle's Corner to Dame Street I notice a big number of buses carrying a very few passengers and they could be conveyed on 10 per cent of the number of buses being used. I may be told that that occurs in valley periods and that I drive through that area at a time when there is no demand for buses, but that happens so often that I am inclined to think the organisation of the service is not such as to attract the same number of passengers that use the public transport service in the capitals of the countries I have visited.
CIE who are losing a lot of money employ a team of two people to drive a double decker at considerable cost and that cost is not justified. They could be accused of contributing to the appalling pollution that exists in the city and for no good reason. I am sure the Minister, his advisers and CIE, who examine ways to economise, are aware of this. At any time in Dublin city, excluding between 5 p.m. and 6 p.m., one can see up to 20 double decker buses that will not be carrying 50 passengers between them. That cannot be counted an economic proposition and as long as it continues so long will successive Ministers have to come here seeking additional money. I am happy at any time to pay for a service but I am not happy to pay where value is not given.
Over the years I have tried to discover a formula that might improve CIE services in Dublin but, unfortunately, I have not been any more original in my ideas than others who have given some thought to this problem. CIE should consider farming out buses to people who would be prepared to operate them. If we had that system there would be better employment of the buses. Drivers and conductors would be enthusiastic in their pursuit of passengers. Instead of speeding away from bus stops and trying to justify their actions by saying that they have to meet a schedule, drivers and conductors under such a system would make adjustments to allow them to carry more passengers. People would get as good a service under such a system as they get at present. I am critical of CIE employees who man the buses. I might add that it is not a job I would relish but if I had it I would satisfy the spirit and requirements of it. I would look upon every person using the service, as I do in my present vocation, as a person in whom I would be interested and feel under an obligation to do my best for. That is not being done at present. I do not know what it is that agitates the minds of those people. It is possible that the nature of the work is such that there is not the consolation in it that those in other occupations get. It is well known, and there is no point in hiding this, that generally speaking the manpower do not reflect any great happiness in their work. It may be that they are not being paid enough. Whatever the reason, everybody knows that they are not happy in their work.
I will not refer to the rumours I have heard of how that manifests itself. I make it a point of travelling by bus on at least two occasion in the year. On one occasion as I was boarding a bus I noticed an elderly lady making for the same bus and I drew the attention of the driver to this. I said to him, "There is another passenger anxious to travel on this bus" and the retort I got was, "There are more buses coming". What can one do in such circumstances? That is not the type of attitude that gives any satisfaction to those who use the service. It may be that the staff hold the view that because the wages are low it is not worth their while working any harder.
The scheme I have suggested has incentives in it. CIE could lease a bus for a year and tell the person hiring it that a specific number will operate on that route. It could be made clear that under the system the work would be heavier but those involved would be in a position to earn more money. "If that happens there will be more money in it for you; you will be in a position to earn much more money than you are now, the work will be heavier." Perhaps they would respond to such a challenge. It is obvious that they are not responding to that challenge at present and they have not the job satisfaction we should like them to have.
I should say I am not talking about the totality of people who work for CIE. Some are excellent workers, friends of mine and, because of that, they would wish me to refer to members of staff found in every organisation who are not as good as the rest. It would appear that the latter set standards for others. Situations arise — thank God not so frequently now — in which some domestic bother in a certain garage leads to a member of the staff of CIE placing a picket there, resulting in countless numbers of people being denied service to and from their respective places of employment, a service on which they depend to earn the money out of which the moneys I am being asked to agree here are obtained. It will not continue indefinitely.
I have spoken at greater length than I had anticipated. I referred to the Minister — repeat the Minister — and I do not mean only the Minister, Deputy Jim Mitchell, who happens to be the holder of the office at present. I referred in similar terms to his predecessor in respect of service. If any change occurs, if there is any new Minister early next year — and if the people of Finglas have not been given the service to which they are entitled, which it is the responsibility of CIE and the Minister for Transport to provide for them, just as is provided for every other citizen of this State, then I shall avail of the earliest opportunity to address myself to this House in similar terms.
