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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 7 Dec 1983

Vol. 346 No. 7

Transport Bill, 1983: Second Stage.

I move: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

This is a relatively short but important Bill. Its purpose is to extend the limit on CIE's borrowing powers for capital and temporary purposes and to increase the corresponding guarantee powers of the Minister for Finance. The present statutory limits on CIE's capital borrowing power is £180 million and it is now proposed to increase that limit to £230 million. The increase proposed in the case of the board's temporary borrowing powers is from £20 million to £40 million. These increases are necessary because CIE will shortly reach the statutory limits of their existing powers.

CIE's capital expenditure is financed from the board's internal resources, mainly depreciation provisions, borrowings and Exchequer capital advances. These borrowing arrangements require my approval and that of the Minister for Finance who has power to guarantee them. CIE's total capital borrowings at 31 December 1983, will, it is estimated, amount to £175.5 million.

We have now entered into an unavoidable, necessary and welcome period of rapid change. For those involved in CIE and for those of us for the time being assigned to guide its fortunes this should not be a time of combat but a time of cohesion. The inevitability of change is such that the unwise alone will seek to resist while the wise will seek to fashion it.

The inevitability of change is indicated by many things, but most of all by the galloping deficit, which simply has now exceeded what the Exchequer, that is, the taxpayer can afford to pay. Last year it broke new records at £109.2 million — more than 33 times what it was in 1969 and represented 12 per cent of the current budget deficit.

We have already put a halt to that gallop and for the year now coming to a close the deficit should be around £104 million, which will be the first reduction achieved in 15 years. That is just for openers.

We have also, in a new policy departure for CIE in June, announced inter alia, that

(i) one-third of what they do is considered social and consequently one-third of their expenditure should be their subvention;

(ii) their expenditure must be reduced by 12 per cent in real terms over five years, and therefore, their subvention will reduce in real terms over five years by at least 12 per cent.

(iii) the subvention will be paid above the line so profits become a possibility from 1984 onwards;

(iv) a capital committee have been established to ensure all future proposals for major capital investment will be properly financially appraised before decisions are taken.

These changes, although very significant, are only a start and we must now address ourselves to the possibility of advantageous structural changes and be guided in general, if not in detail, by McKinsey.

The problem with McKinsey is that while the prognosis indicated the different problems in CIE and their relative order of magnitude he is short on cures. For instance he says about the railways, which contribute two thirds of the deficit, that there are four options: (i) keep them; (ii) reduce them; (iii) expand them; (iv) close them.

He ruled out (ii) and (iii) and says (i) and (iv) will cost the economy more or less the same in over ten or 25 years span. However direct costs to the Exchequer would be considerably less if the railways were closed.

Two questions, therefore, arise:

(a) can we afford to have the railways?

(b) can we afford not to have the railways?

Voluminous bodies of opinion will answer "no" to both those inherently contradictory questions. Which of these is right? That is the £70 million question which no longer can be avoided and must now be faced.

In addressing themselves to McKinsey, which they will presently do, the Government will be weighing up all economic, social and — let us face it — political issues involved. One of these issues is the Howth-Bray electrification about which much has been said and written — much of it inaccurate — in the recent past.

This scheme has no chance of paying for itself even if passenger numbers reach the most optimistic forecasts. It would now apperar that electrification will add around a further £20 million per year to CIE's problems, at least in the early years.

Having said that, I want to emphasise that there have been no significant cost overruns. The latest estimated cost is £114.3 million. This is made up as follows:

Original Estimate, £46.4 million in March 1979, adjusted for inflation and increased VAT

£85.68 million

Capitalised interest charges

£28.62 million

Total

£114.3 million

CIE, when proposing the scheme, did so on the basis that it would be financed entirely by Exchequer grants. These would not have had to be repaid nor would they have imposed a liability for continuing interest charges on the board. Initially this was the basis on which the Government of the day approved the scheme. However, within a matter of weeks they decided that the scheme should be financed on the basis of loan capital. The decision to convert from grant financing to loan financing effectilvely added £28.6 million to the capital cost and by rendering the board liable for the ongoing annual interest charges put an entirely different complexion on the cost aspects.

This fundamental change in the financing arrangements pinpoints a weakness in the approach not only to the Howth-Bray scheme but to rapid rail transit in general. It is simply unrealistic to expect that the Exchequer could finance projects of this nature on a grant basis. That would be possible only in a situation where conditions of continuing and sustained budgetary surplus existed. As we all know only too well that is not the case.

When the Howth-Bray electrification scheme was first proposed in 1977 passenger carryings on the line had been showing a continuing upward trend. They had increased from 12,600 passengers per day in 1970 to some 32,400 per day in 1979, the last year in which commuter services were not being disrupted by construction works. By the late seventies the rolling stock and equipment in use on the line had reached the end of its useful life and the question of its replacement had become a matter of some urgency. CIE proposed the electrification of the line, which was in accordance with the recommendations of the Dublin Rapid Rail Transit Study.

Subject to certain assumptions it was envisaged that electrified services would meet direct operating costs and that depreciation costs would be more than offset by indirect user benefits. Electrification had the added advantage that it was part of the recommendations in CIE's Rapid Transit Study which envisaged a city-wide system linking the new western suburbs via an underground network in the city centre with the Howth-Bray line. While the decision to electrify did not imply a commitment to the full rapid transit system it did prevent it from being automatically ruled out as a posibility if a fully satisfactory case could be made for it in the future.

The then assessment of the energy situation was also a factor since an electrified system would not be dependent on a single source of energy. There is little to be gained at this stage in debating whether the project at its original estimated cost of £46.4 million represented good value for money. That is an issue that can be decided only on the basis of the perceived value of indirect user benefits and the long-term worth of this substantial addition to infrastructure.

I can say, however, that I would not today be prepared to seek Government approval for a project of this nature put forward in the same way as the Howth-Bray project. This must not be taken as criticism of CIE but rather of the lack of suitable appraisal of such proposals by Governments in the past. Within my own Department I have now a permanent capital committee to monitor and appraise all major capital expenditure proposals in CIE in the future.

Daunting as the immediate prospects are for the economics of the service, I am hopeful that when introduced next spring it will bring about a substantial improvement in the existing service in terms of frequency, speed and efficiency. Daylong services are envisaged, serving 25 stations, with trains operating at five-minute intervals during peak periods reducing to 15 minutes off peak. CIE intend to extend the catchment area of the railway line by the provision of feeder bus services to selected stations. The board estimate that by 1987 passenger numbers will increase to about 80,000 per day, more than twice the previous best average daily carryings.

Another major element in CIE's capital programme is the acquisition of 124 carriage units for mainline passenger services. The new units consist of 94 standard carriages, 15 catering cars and 15 generator vans to be assembled at the Inchicore works in Dublin. With the new carriages CIE will be able to provide mainline rail facilities of an acceptable standard of comfort and convenience. It is expected that the first carriages will be available for service early in 1984. The capital cost of the project at current prices is estimated at about £52 million including VAT of approximately £8 million.

The renewal of the board's city and provincial bus fleets is also continuing. Deputies will recall that bus deliveries from the factory at Shannon commenced in 1981, and I am sure that all Members of the House will have seen the new buses on the move throughout the country. By the end of this year CIE will have taken delivery of 104 single-deck buses and some 366 double-deck buses at a total capital cost of about £68 million.

Almost since the inception of production at the Shannon plant Government have been concerned about the form of the relationship between CIE and their Shannon supplier. This concern springs from the fact that the Shannon firm are basically dependent on CIE for orders for buses. Questions arise as to whether the manufacturing arrangements represent good value as far as CIE are concerned. As an indication of their concern Government commissioned a firm of consultants to carry out a study of the relationship between CIE and their supplier some months ago. Meantime, the ownership of the Shannon firm changed and as a consequence Bombardier no longer have an interest in the operation. Manufacture of buses is continuing at the plant, however, under interim arrangements. I have asked CIE to provide me with their proposals in this respect so that I can submit them to Government in conjunction with the consultant's report. I hope to have CIE's proposals shortly.

In addition to the projects I have mentioned, the board's signalling and normal capital programmes are continuing. The main sources of funding for the latter tend to be Exchequer capital advances and depreciation provisions. The increased borrowing and guarantee arrangements provided for in the Bill are to enable CIE to continue their capital programme as described. The new limit of £230 million in respect of capital borrowings, is an increase of £50 million in the existing limit.

Now to turn to the temporary borrowing question. Under section 5 of the Transport Act, 1981, CIE may, with my consent and that of the Minister for Finance, incur temporary borrowings of up to £20 million. This borrowing power is used by CIE to respond to short-term cash shortfalls. With Government approval, this borrowing facility has also been used to finance the difference between total subvention and deficit, where the total subvention made available in any one year has been insufficient to meet the board's deficit on subventible activities.

Over the past couple of years CIE's deficits have exceeded the annual subventions which the Exchequer has been able to make available to the board. 1983 will fall into this category, but in exceptional circumstances. When the Estimates for 1983 were being prepared in 1982 the then Government put into the Estimates a figure for £86 million compared with an outturn of £109.2 million in 1982. This was clearly an unrealistic figure from the start which had no basis.

During the course of the year when deciding their now approach to CIE for the next five years the Government also made realistic provision for the current year. It was decided that CIE should be asked to live within a deficit of £99 million plus the cost of the public service pay round which, we now know, comes to £5 million. I am glad to report that CIE can live within £104 million in 1983. Although this is a reduction of £5 million on last year it is £18 million more than provided for in the Estimates. Therefore, we provide in this Bill for the temporary borrowing limit necessary to bridge the gap. The deficits in excess of subvention since 1981 are symptomatic of what had become a very substantial problem. Actual State subvention was £85 million in 1981, £96 million in 1982 and £86 million in 1983, a total of £267 million, a sizeable amount of State funding by any standard.

This year, 1983, marks an important turning point in the affairs of CIE as regards State subvention. In 1969-1970 CIE's deficit amounted to £3.2 million. Had the increase in deficit been confined to the rate of inflation the board's 1982 deficit would have amounted to some £17.3 million. The deficit for 1982, however, as I have said, amounted to more than £109 million. If this rate of increase were to continue I do not see the Exchequer being able to provide the huge sums that would eventually be required for public transport. Indeed the experience of recent years underlines the dangers of this approach.

When I became Minister for Transport late last year the subvention for CIE for 1983 had already been fixed as I have said, at £86 million. In the review which took place immediately after the Government came into office it was clear that there was no possibility of increasing the subvention beyond that level even though it was recognised that the board's deficit would exceed the subvention. In the circumstances the only real alternative was to let CIE carry the shortfall by temporary borrowing. The Government, therefore, decided to promote legislation which would enable CIE to cover the shortfall in that way. As I mention earlier, that shortfall is expected to work out at about £18 million.

In reviewing the position for 1983 and future years the Government saw that a new approach was needed for the fixing of the CIE subvention so that the level of State support could be matched by what the Exchequer could afford. At the same time it was clear that a massive reduction in State subvention could not be achieved overnight without serious adverse repercussions. It was against this background that I tackled the problem.

With the approval of the Government, I introduced a package of measures in June last to bring about a substantial improvement in CIE's position. The main features of that package were first, a formula for the settlement of the CIE subvention, which is now determined as 50 per cent of CIE revenue or 33? per cent of expenditure whichever is the lesser; in other words, every £2 earned by the board, in principle, attracts a State subvention of £1, subject to the constraint of the one-in-three on the expenditure side; secondly, subvention moneys will be paid to CIE from 1 January 1984 as revenue, or "above the line" in accountancy terms; thirdly, CIE are required to achieve a reduction of 12 per cent in expenditure in real terms over five years from 1984, a vital element in getting CIE finances under control; fourthly, and as briefly mentioned earlier, the establishment of a permanent capital committee with representatives from my Department, the Department of Finance and CIE to appraise and monitor CIE's capital expenditure.

The subvention formula is a big step forward in the Government's relations with CIE. It tells CIE quite clearly the type of performance that the Government expect in the years immediately ahead. In matching the level of subvention to the company's performance we are providing the type of corporate incentive necessary to reverse the deficit trend of recent years. This, with payment of the subvention "above the line", should help to create the conditions where management and staff can be motivated to perform in a more commercial manner.

The formula is also a discipline on Government. Subvention will no longer be decided on an arbitrary basis but must be consistent with the formula. The formula itself is not perfect and may need to be refined but it is a pragmatic basis for measuring Government's contribution to the social aspects of CIE services in the medium term. Under the new system CIE have the opportunity to operate profitably after bringing the subvention to account. This incentive is, I believe, a key to motivating substantial improvements in the standard and quality of the board's services.

It is interesting that in the year of this new approach CIE's deficit will for the first time in 15 years be less than that for the preceding year. The projected 1983 deficit of some £104 million will be an improvement of £5 million in cash terms on the board's deficit of £109 million for 1982 which, when inflation is taken into account, is an improvement in real terms of approximately 14 per cent.

A factor that must not be forgotten when considering CIE problems is that governments in the past have often exacerbated such problems. Examples of this include withholding of increases in fares and rates and the involvement by government in purely commercial or operational aspects of the board's affairs. I hope that under the formula arrangements this practice will cease, thus allowing CIE to manage their affairs in as commercial a manner as is possible. It is my intention to discourage all unnecessary political intervention in the day-to-day affairs of CIE. If public representatives have problems about services or operations the most efficient way of dealing with them will be to go direct to CIE. I have, therefore, decided to discontinue the practice of receiving deputations about administrative matters and the like in CIE. CIE, I am sure, will welcome that development and will be able to demonstrate the responsibility with which they exercise their functions.

As I said recently to the board, and indeed publicly, there are areas in which there can be substantial improvement in performance by CIE. One of these is in the industrial relations area. The numbers employed in CIE, the range of skills, the spread of locations and the variety of conditions under which the staff operate are factors which influence CIE industrial relations. However, all staff in CIE should realise the damage that is done not just by major strikes but even by relatively small incidents involving very few people over minor issues.

Absenteeism is another factor to be regretted. No one should forget that CIE are in the marketplace to sell their transport products. Time and again the consumer has shown that product reliability is high among his priorities. In CIE's case, every industrial relations incident damages the board's reliability and credibility, which inevitably increases costs, loses customers and revenue and in the long run defeats the interests of the workers themselves. With the high cost of private motoring in Ireland, I believe that CIE have a vast potential to win many more customers. However, this potential can be tapped only if morale improves and the board show in the marketplace that their services are above all else reliable and efficient.

Deputies will have seen in the media the recent announcement regarding the appointment of a new chairman to take over at the helm in CIE on 1 January next. I would like to take this opportunity to express the appreciation of the Government and my own thanks to Dr. Liam St. John Devlin for the service to the State which he has given as Chairman of CIE during the last ten years. Earlier this year Dr. Devlin had informed me that he would not wish to continue in his post beyond the end of the year. The chairmanship of CIE is an extremely onerous position which carries an exceptionally heavy burden, and our thanks are due to Dr. Devlin for the dedicated manner in which he has discharged this responsibility during the past decade. I should also like to welcome Mr. Paul Conlon as the new executive chairman of CIE and, on behalf of this House, to wish him well.

As it approaches the anniversary of my appointment as Minister for Transport I can say that since my appointment I have had contact, mostly personal contact, with almost every representative interest in the field of inland transport embracing carriers and users as well as outside experts, academics and commentators. During that year, I have taken steps to get some fundamental grasp of the nature and problems of the inland transport industry and especially of the troubled area many of us have, unfortunately, come to associate with CIE. These contacts have been of immense value to that end but some of them have also been disappointing. This has been for the very simple reason that some people I have met based their positions on very narrow and subjective views while showing no grasp of the global problems and no potential for an imaginative approach to the problems they identify. I think there has been a lot of casual thinking on the subject of transport and that the time has come when all who are really concerned will have to review their thinking habits. The magic solutions to transport problems will still remain elusive, but there will never be progress if we all remain entrenched in our views and muddled in our thinking.

In this debate I should like Deputies to keep uppermost in their minds that the obligation of the Minister for Transport is, first, to the taxpayer so that the liability for CIE is reduced to an acceptable level and, secondly, to transport users so that they will have a service of an acceptable level but at a price which, so far as possible, is acceptable also. Already in 1983 considerable progress has been made without substantial cutbacks in services or redundancies. The four essential improvements may be more difficult, but I am confident that if all minds are applied in the way I suggested in my opening remarks we will achieve results satisfactory to all parties concerned.

I commend the Bill to the House.

On a philosophic basis I should like to reject the final part of the Minister's statement which was not included in the typescript I got. I reject it not out of hand but as something to which the House should address itself, namely, whether the taxpayer should be uppermost in the mind of the Minister for Transport or whether the transport users should be first. The taxpayer must be taken into consideration, but in a Government with collective responsibility I do not think it is the Minister for Transport who should establish such precedence. In fact, his precedence should be for the transport user but, of course, with due care and attention to the taxpayer also.

The Bill before the House is one of a long series of Bills to deal with the capital moneys available to CIE. It is interesting to read the Transport Act, 1974, where £55 million was the borrowing permitted. That replaced section 5 of the 1964 Act. There was also an interesting provision which referred to "including money in a currency other than the currency of the State". It is much more important now to pay attention to that than it was in 1964, nine years before we joined the EEC. The tendency across the board has been to borrow abroad. When we were dealing with the Bill dealing with telecommunications we mentioned that the tendency to borrow abroad carries risks due to the flux in values of currencies. This has been a feature of recent years. I have spoken already in this House about this matter, indicating that while the Bretton Woods agreement has served the western world well for a long time it has now come apart at the seams. The international financiers should be addressing themselves to the solution of the problems that have arisen because the Bretton Woods agreement is no longer able to cope with the financial flux in the west. This is due mainly to the fact that oil has to be paid for in dollars and there is a huge petro-dollar pool. I think our Minister for Finance could, with profit, push in the EEC for a different system for paying for oil, for the EMS to set up its own currency, pay in its own currency and take the whole problem away from the dollar.

The Minister mentioned that fuel was a considerable consideration when the decision was taken about the Howth-Bray line. The figure of £55 million was substituted in 1974 for the figure of £17 million which was covered by the Act immediately preceding it. The Minister had something to say about the temporary borrowing powers. The 1974 Act substituted £5 million for £2 million, the latter being from the Act of 1950 as amended by an Act of 1958. I am emphasising figures to show the changes that has come about in the amount of money, a point made by the Minister at some length. The aggregate in the 1981 Act was £180 million and he is increasing that by £50 million, chargeable to capital. The temporary borrowing powers were increased in 1981 to £20 million. All this indicated that costs have been increasing year by year at an alarming rate.

I call the attention of the House to the transport statistics contained in the CSO Economic Series 1980-1983 published on 13 November 1983. These figures cover the three years up to April in each case, except in the case of road motor passenger services for 1983 which are covered until May. The figures are given in thousands. The average weekly figure for railway receipts from passengers, parcels, mails, etc. was £563.1 in 1981 and £612.7 in 1982. In January 1981 the figure was £437.9; January 1982, £568.4; January 1983, £552.6. That is a very substantial reduction for January 1983 as compared with January 1982 which must cause some alarm. There was also a drop in railway receipts in February 1983. The figures for the month of March show an increase as between 1982 and 1983 from £550.2 to £589.7. An increase in the figures for April is indicated over the three years.

The second section gives average weekly figures of railway receipts from freight trains. The figure for 1981 was £300.6 and for 1982, £319.4. The January figures for freight over the three years are as follows: 1981 — £278.7; 1982 — £306.7; 1983 — £378.0. The figures for February are as follows: 1981 — £319.9; 1982 — £319.3; 1983 — £353.4. It is interesting to note the trends, and we must take into account the increased charges permitted during the period. The figures for March are as follows: 1981 — £247.3; 1982 — £243.5, a drop; 1983 — £299.6. The figures for April are as follows: 1981 —£265.3; 1982 — £274.7; 1983 —£310.4.

One area of considerable worry concerning CIE was related to the continuation of their freight business. The Department of Transport and the House should give consideration to these trends. It would, however, be more useful if we could consider the figures over a longer period.

The Minister pointed out that a very substantial percentage of the subvention to CIE was taken up by the railways and we should pay some attention to the statistics. The average weekly figures for passengers carried on the rail services were 294.4 in 1981 and 246.0 in 1982. We do not have an average for 1983. We have a basis for comparison for the months January to April. The January figures are as follows: 1981 — 282.3; 1982 — 236.9, a very substantial reduction; 1983 — 228.7 another reduction. I would ask the House to reflect on these figures. For February of 1981 the figure was 280.9; for 1982, 260.6 and — a slight recovery — for 1983, 261.5. Again, it is not encouraging.

Passengers carried in March 1981, 296.1; March 1982, 235.3 — a very substantial drop. There was a little recovery this year to 248. However, this is still very far from the figure for March 1981. Passengers carried in April 1981, 285.1; in 1982, 191; 244 — a recovery, but again 40,000 short of the 1981 figure.

Rail services, tonnage of goods carried on freight, in thousands of tonnes: 69.3 in April 1981; 74.2 in April 1982; down to 57.3 in April of this year. In March 1981, it was 67.3; in 1982, 77.5 — which was an improvement — but back down to 61 in March 1983. In February 1981, 78.2; in February 1982, 80.2; in February 1983, 68.0. The January figure is the only one which showed a fairly substantial increase — 62.8 in 1981, 61.3 in 1982 75.3 in 1983.

Road motor passenger services receipts, again in thousands: for January — 1981, £1,188.3; for 1982, £1,447.3 and in 1983, £1,887.4. Looking at the figures given generally, the area in which the greatest increase has taken place seems to be road motor passenger services. For February 1982, £1,326.0, February 1982, £1,713.4, in 1983, £1,994.4. For March 1981, £1,317.3; March 1982, £1,655.9; 1983, £1,953.9.

The April and May figures are also available for all three years: £1,261.5 for April 1981; £1,643.8 for April 1982, £1,881.4 for April 1983, again a substantial increase on that in revenue. For May 1981, £1,347.4; May 1982, £1,723.1 and May 1983, £1,952.2. That again shows that road motor passenger services receipts have the right trend and are on the way up.

All these statistics are important when assessing the general policy to be undertaken by the Minister for Transport and by CIE. I mentioned this morning, on the Order of Business, a question for the Minister which is relevant to the development of CIE services in Dublin city, namely, what progress has been made with regard to the Dublin Transport Authority Bill. The Minister said that it would be before the House in due course. I think that we got harder and tighter dates at one stage and perhaps the Minister, in the calmer atmosphere of a Second Stage debate, will be able to tell us when this Bill will be before the House as it is relevant, not merely to the operation of CIE in the provision of buses, but also to the link-in to the Howth-Bray new undertaking.

The Minister has mentioned, in the announcement of a new policy departure for CIE in June, that one-third of the services are considered social and therefore, that one-third of the expenditure should be in subvention. This carried implications for the system which he has worked out for future subventions. One of the problems which I remember from the Department of Transport was knowing specifically where losses were being incurred. The thought was that perhaps railways carried the greatest political punch——

In County Cavan.

I have my own complaint about that. The thought was that it would be an adroit thing to do to attribute to railways losses which were incurred otherwise, on the basis that this House, or any Government, would find it difficult to do away with the railways and, therefore, that they could be used as a hiding place for losses. I would not like to interpret the Chair's nod of the head as agreement with what I say. I am not going to embarrass him, but I know that he is a man of considerable experience in that field.

The Minister puts the stark options from the McKinsey Report into his speech — about railways: to keep them; to reduce them; to expand them, or to close them. He asks two questions: Can we afford to have the railways? Can we afford not to have the railways? He complains elsewhere in his speech that McKinsey is short on answers. I do not find the answers in the Minister's speech, either, and must call the attention of the House to that. He calls it the £70 million question. What the House should be told is where specifically money is being lost, on what individual services, in what individual locations, and then this House should fully consider where the subsidy should go and that it be known as subsidy. I agree totally — I have said this before — with the Minister's decision to above the line subvention. This should make it easier for each individual section of the service to be pin-pointed. It should not be beyond the wit of auditors to indicate exactly where the losses are and decisions can then be made in the light of that information.

One of the difficult things with regard, not merely to CIE, but to many semi-State bodies, is to get exact information about the operations of the company. While I agree with the Minister when he says that political interference with the activities of CIE should be eliminated, nevertheless if this House is called upon year after year to vote a very substantial sum of money to CIE then this House is fully entitled to enquire into the workings of CIE or any other semi-State company. McKinsey point out in their report that one of the areas of difficulty for the Department of Transport is that of securing information.

I was pleased to hear the Minister say that there were no significant cost overruns in the Howth-Bray electrification scheme. There is one point I would like to make. At some stage it was reported to me and the Department of Transport that non-Irish materials, when Irish materials were available, were being used on that particular project. The Minister should continue to monitor that and see to it that contracts are placed, as far as possible, with Irish producers.

The Minister referred to the decision to convert from grant-financing to loan-financing and said that it added £28.6 million to the capital cost. The Minister did not indicate if he intends to change this situation or if he intends, in the Department of Transport, to deal with the extra charges from the Department's subvention to CIE. He drew attention to the fact and I would like to know if he has any intention of changing that.

With regard to extension to Greystones or to Tallaght I would like to know what the Minister's thinking is on that. He said that if he were considering the Howth-Bray proposition now he would not be inclined to favour it. I have already mentioned that at that particular time the question of availability of fuel was uppermost in the minds of the Government. I would like to repudiate the Minister's suggestion that the Government did not make a suitable appraisal of the Howth-Bray proposal. There was no proposal before the Government that I know of during my time in Government in any of three Departments which I served in, which got more consideration, which was subjected to more debate and discussion which indicated strong views on both sides, and the Government decision was taken only after that long consideration. No argument has been put up that convinces me now that the final decision by the Government was a wrong one.

I believe that anticipating the results of this venture in the way some people have been doing, and which was quite rightly mentioned by the Minister as being wrong, is a foolish exercise. It is very important to monitor its success, to see to it that the actual line is properly marketed. It was easy enough to market the commuter traffic. The Minister said that in the non-rush period of the day there will be a quarter hour service as distinct from a five minute service for the rush periods. That should provide an excellent service.

I mentioned several times in the House and in Government the possibility of very serious marketing of that service throughout the summer months. That particular line will have stations very near many of the best resorts around Dublin. There is there a chance for proper marketing of that line as similar lines are marketed in Spain at the present time. We have a unique opportunity of improving on the most optimistic of the figures. We will wait and see how it will work out, but I believe the potential is great. I would like to reject what the Minister said about lack of suitable appraisal of such proposals by Governments in the past. As far as that particular project is concerned it was appraised, debated, discussed and a decision was taken after a very long period of discussion. Every aspect of it was discussed and debated. Everybody with expertise was consulted. I can stand over that statement. I was not Minister for Transport at the time but I was a member of the Government.

Why was the funding arrangement changed about five week later?

I am talking about an appraisal of this as something marketable. I am simply saying that full consideration was given to it as a service for the citizens of the area. The Minister mentioned the permanent capital committee. He spoke about the functions of the committee to monitor and appraise all major capital expenditure proposed in CIE in the future. I would like the Minister to tell us how many are on this permanent capital committee. Are there any outsiders on the committee? Is it exclusively made up of officers of the Department of Transport or is there any outside expertise on this committee? Is there any executive from CIE who attends meetings of the capital committee? Is it simply a matter of the committee communicating with CIE, getting their views and getting the views within the Department? I would like to know what the procedure is, when the committee was established, how many meetings it has held and what exactly it is considering at the moment? Has the committee been asked to have a look at the rapid rail system? Is the Tallaght line under debate? Could we get the views of the committee on the record of the House with regard to such matters as the Tallaght line and the extension from Bray to Greystones.

The Dublin Transport Authority Task Force have done wonderful work in regard to transport in Dublin City. When the legislation dealing with that authority was mentioned in the House we were told it was urgent because the task force did not have the necessary statutory teeth to make further progress. The task force have made great progress and deserve the gratitude of all interested in transport but they had reached the stage where they could not do anything further without statutory powers. Before I left office I sent the heads of the Bill to the parliamentary draughtsman. As far as the Howth-Bray line and the movement of passengers by buses through the city are concerned we are expecting great things from the authority.

The areas of capital expenditure mentioned by the Minister were the electrification of the Howth-Bray suburban rail line, the acquisition of buses, mainline coaches and some other capital works. The Minister's reference to the carriage units was skeletal. He said it was expected that the first carriages will be available for service early in 1984. I gather there was some trouble at the Inchicore works which may have delayed operations. I should like to know how many standard carriage will be available in 1984. The Minister mentioned the figure of 124 units, 94 standard carriages, 15 catering carriages and 15 generator vans. I trust the Minister will explain to the House what is happening at the Inchicore works. That would be useful information for the House. Are they working on one, three or ten standard carriages, catering cars or generator vans? I presume the standard carriages will come on service in 1984.

There seems to be a little vagueness and uncertainty about the position with regard to the delivery of buses. At the end of 1982 the position was that Bombardier were to produce five buses per fortnight. They had run heavily ahead of their schedule and that was causing trouble with regard to capital funding. At that time one of the big difficulties was to get exact information. My recollection is that CIE owned everything in Bombardier and that the arrangement between Bombardier and CIE was one of supply of buses. The company had run ahead of schedule and produced more than they had been asked to do, and they were asked to adhere to the production levels originally envisaged. When the pressure was on to maintain the employment level in Bombardier—an important consideration—and for the Government to fund more buses than originally agreed there was talk of export orders. I was slightly sceptical about the news I got then that the placement of an order was almost imminent. Iraq and Egypt were mentioned. I am aware that there is a war in progress between Iraq and Iran, but I should like to know if the company at Shannon made any substantial progress with regard to exports. That important factor was thrown into the argument when we were being asked to keep Bombardier going.

Will the Minister tell the House the present rate of production and how the new company will relate to CIE? The Minister should also tell us the progress, if any, that is being made with regard to exports. I accept that the bus was subjected to considerable criticism. I have a habit of talking to as many CIE bus drivers as possible about the bus, and the House will accept that it is not possible to find a better person to give one an idea of the quality of the bus. During the by-election in Dublin Central I visited Broadstone garage to talk to drivers, and almost without exception they had praise for the Bombardier bus. I accept that criticisms have been levelled at it from the point of view of pollution, fuel consumption and rattles which developed. However, the drivers felt that the bus was reliable and they were pleased to drive it. I do not think it is possible to have a better test than that.

I should like to ask the Minister about the short-term borrowing facility and the part it is likely to play in the new arrangement with regard to the financing of CIE. With regard to the Minister's statement on the short-term borrowing facility I wonder if we are any further on than we were hitherto as far as the financing of CIE is concerned. What will happen is that the Government subsidy, even though it will be above the line, will be absorbed and then requests will be made for Government backing for the short-term borrowing. This would seem to me to defeat the whole purpose of the original exercise.

The one aspect of the new method of financing CIE which would seem to be desirable is that of giving a percentage of the money earned because, in that, there is an incentive given to earn as much money as possible. If the board can motivate their workers in all sections, and particularly through its marketing manager on the marketing end, to earn as much money as possible, as a result of which they will be entitled to a percentage of subsidy from the Government, then that should prove to be advantageous.

There is one point I should like to mention, though with some anger. That is the Newry bus programme put on by CIE for the Christmas season. We are in a perilous position from the point of view of employment here now with 200,000 people out of work, a leaked document indicating that it is Government thinking that this will rise to perhaps 220,000 or 225,000. While I advocate maximum marketing by a company such as CIE, we should know where we are going, things should be fitted into general policy. I represent a Border constituency where there is severe trouble being experienced commercially because of the huge gap in prices in certain items, a gap which was established by Government decision, Government policy, by what happened in the last budget through large excise duties having been imposed.

I might refer in passing to the Minister's interjection about my lack of railways and so on. Here we have a company heavily subsidised by the taxpayer, including those of my area in a kind of semi-circle between Dundalk and Letter-kenny, providing service to Newry at what appears to me to be an impossibly low price. Is there anybody monitoring to ascertain whether that service is making money? I cannot see how it could make money. Or, if it is making money, the unfortunate citizens of this country paying fares in the normal course of events are being rooked. The anger felt in areas around the Border over this decision of CIE has reached me. I have received a number of letters and very angry telephone calls about the matter. Such citizens very rightly point out that, as taxpayers, they are subsidising CIE while CIE are now subsidising people to travel and shop outside the Republic of Ireland, going into the Six Counties to do their shopping. I do not think that is right. When I maintain that I advocate maximising the marketing end of CIE, and I do, I am saying also that it should be done only by taking a general look at what we are endeavouring to do in this country. At present the youth section of the Fianna Fáil organisation in towns around the Border are distributing leaflets asking people to buy goods manufactured and on sale in this country, that jobs are dependent on it, so that shops will not continue to close or lay off one or two staff. I am afraid it has to be said bluntly that this blight that has come about has been by way of Government imposts and must be negatived in some way.

I notice that in the course of his remarks the Minister referred to a permanent capital committee. He gives somewhat more detail near the end of his speech than earlier when he said:

Fourthly, and as briefly mentioned earlier, the establishment of a Permanent Capital Committee with representatives from my Department, the Department of Finance and CIE to appraise and monitor CIE's capital expenditure.

He does say there is an input from CIE. I would warn him about the Department of Finance. The one job of the Department of Finance is to see to it that the Department of Transport get as little money as possible. Of course, the Minister for Transport must fight his battle, as I am sure he will, for his Department, around the Cabinet table. I should like an assurance from the Minister that this permanent capital committee was not a dodge thought up by the Department of Finance. In recent years—and it is incumbent on Ministers other than the Minister for Finance to fight it—there has been a strong attempt made by the Department of Finance to grab every other Government Department by the throat. I know the Minister for Transport will fight that tendency so far as his Department is concerned. The Department of Finance should be told that it is an important Department, but that it is the servant of the Government, that officials in the Department going on permanent committees, semi-permanent committees, ad hoc committees, or just paying a visit when the Book of Estimates is being put together are simply agents of that Department. Certainly it is the job of the Minister for Finance to see to the nation's finances. I suppose it is the job of his officials to excercise themselves fully in that regard. It is also a very dangerous thing to allow them too much of a say and too much strength in the councils of Government.

The statement of the Minister on what was a written not a typed section, worries me somewhat about the possibility that financial considerations will be placed first. I agree with him fully that the taxpayer is providing a large subsidy to CIE. That same taxpayer qua customer of CIE is entitled to a good service a fortiori because of his contribution in tax apart altogether from his having to pay the fares. As far as CIE are concerned the first consideration must be to provide a good service.

On occasion Governments in the past have decided that, on account of escalating inflation and the hardships that imposes on workers and citizens, CIE should not be allowed to raise fares. That has happened and, in circumstances of galloping inflation, can be justified.

With regard to the hotels section of CIE I have already stated my commitment that the approach to them should be a fully commercial one, should be encouraged and that I am fully in favour of such approach.

The Minister calculated that one third of the total activities of CIE should be regarded as social. However, we must not allow what I would call Finance thinking to get into service Departments which are providing a service for the people. To my mind "Finance thinking" means balancing the books above all things, and if the customer is to be considered at all he should be away down the list. Economists always stress book balancing. Trade unionists stress the importance of working conditions, salaries and wages. The whole thing should be geared to providing a service for the customers. The Finance officials are customers, the trade unionists are customers, but very often sight is lost of that aspect of transport, not merely internal transport.

I agree with the Minister about the importance of industrial relations. It is frustrating for a Minister for Transport, for the Department and the CIE board but above all for citizens, when one person, unofficially, can carry a placard and disrupt major bus services in this city which is where the impact is most felt. We had the 6.30 a.m. news summary announcing that one person with a placard outside a bus station had caused buses Nos. such-and-such to be off the road. It is unpalatable, and any mechanism that can be developed in the CIE industrial relations field to eliminate that should be used because the people who are suffering are the fellow workers of the man who is toting his placard, in many instances without union backing, destroying people's day.

The Minister referred to absenteeism. I do not have figures on this in relation to CIE. We are blamed for its prevalence here but I do not know if we are worse than elsewhere. I particularly do not have figures in relation to CIE. As the Minister said, they are in the market place selling a product and the commitment should be not merely at board level but right down to the workers.

Reference was made by the Minister to morale. On occasions very serious attempts were made by Ministers for Transport and by the CIE Board to improve morale, to build up pride in the operation, but it must be admitted that these attempts failed. There is not high morale in the company and the difficulties seems to be increasing. I hope that the whole industrial relations question, absenteeism and morale will be the first concern of the new executive chairman, Mr. Conlon. The outgoing chairman, Dr. St. John Devlin has given ten years of dedicated service to CIE. Anybody who has met him will vouch for his seriousness of purpose and his dedication to hard work while he was in charge of CIE.

I welcome Mr. Conlon as the new executive chairman. He comes with a fine reputation for efficiency in various other difficult jobs. Probably this is the most difficult he has tackled. I welcome him especially because he is an Ulsterman. We have had a Munsterman and now we have Mr. Conlon from Ulster. I hope that in his period as head of CIE he will make progress in CIE, particularly in regard to the Howth-Bray project.

It becomes necessary to mention McKinsey again in this respect. The circumstances of the publication of that report were unique in Ireland's political history because in 19 months we had three general elections with consequent changes of Ministers: we had Deputies Reynolds, Mitchell, Wilson and Mitchell again. I do not think it would be fair to criticise any of them for not having made clear-cut decisions on McKinsey.

However, the Minister now in the House has had 12 months, more than I had, and we will be expecting some positive proposals from him in the near future on McKinsey. I hope the Minister will give me an idea of when we might expect some word about a Government decision on McKinsey. A new executive chairman is coming in and it would be reasonable to wait until he and the Minister can put their heads together with regard to it. It is not my intention to make a political point, but a new executive chairman will have his own views and ideas. When he was asked about the McKinsey Report he said he had not read it at the time he was appointed. Perhaps that is all the better because his mind will be fresher, clearer and untrammelled by the various pressures let loose in a very calculated way when the McKinsey Report was first published.

We have discussed the electrification of the Howth-Bray railway and the acquisition of buses and we covered the provision of mainline coaches. When I was leaving the Department provision had been made for other capital works and I would be pleased if the Minister can give us information about capital works. I welcome the Bill and look forward to the Minister's reply.

I will begin by saying I believe there is a great case to be made for subsidising public transport. I hope, as in so many debates on CIE, that we will not get deflected into pure concentration on deficits as the sole measure of performance of a public transport company. Urban transport has the obvious benefit of efficiency in energy and land use as well as environmental gains from a public transport system.

At the same time we must be very conscious of the fact that the expansion in the subvention to CIE is occurring at a time when the social benefits that the State ought to be encouraging seem to be on the decline. In other words, what we have seen in the last ten or 15 years has been a big growth in deficits on rail and Dublin city buses at a time when they were losing passengers and barely maintaining freight. We are not financing a desirable new service on the basis of social needs. It seems we are being pushed into financing a deficit which is occurring through a drop in the number of passengers. That is a fundamental issue we must face.

In 1970 there was no deficit in the Dublin bus service, but in 1983 we have a deficit of £22 million which must be met ultimately by the taxpayer. In that period we had a decline in the number of passengers using Dublin city buses by about one-third, while at the same time the population in the city was growing by one-third. There has been an increase in the number of buses provided in the city This means we are being forced to subsidise an operation whose losses result from a reduction in the number of passengers rather than losses which can be justified on social grounds.

When we look at the importance of public transport in the householders' global transport budget, it is worrying to see that it has declined progressively. It is now about 6 per cent of the householders' budget and the other 94 per cent is for private motoring costs. I am worried about the way the growth in the public subvention has grown in the last ten years to provide a service which is becoming increasingly marginal to the public. Not only is the number of passengers using the service falling but the passengers are not getting the benefit of cheaper fares. We might be justified subventing CIE if passengers were enjoying lower fares, but the reality is that over the last ten years bus fares in Dublin have grown by 5 per cent above the inflation rate. It is against that background that we must ask fundamental questions about the structure of the public transport system and what we are paying for.

The Minister has made proposals for a new CIE mandate. He is to be commended for giving CIE a definite target for a number of years ahead. His strategy is to give a global 33 per cent subsidy on all costs across CIE services — rail, bus and provincial bus services — and to require a 2½ per cent cut each year over the next five years, which will mean a cut in the State subsidy of 2½ per cent each year. I understand the thinking behind that proposal — to set up a system where the Government can step back from the details of administration of the transport system and leave it to CIE to decide issues such as fare setting, cost economies and what they mean in reality, route cuts, staff lay offs and so on.

There is a certain validity in telling CIE that the Government will set them a broad outline and will step back from making administrative decisions, but I must disagree with the Minister on a number of points. As Deputy Wilson said, CIE have singularly failed in the past to meet the various targets set for them. Admittedly, they were annual targets and perhaps Governments were tempted to set them unrealistic terms, but the fact is that CIE have not succeeded in staying within any financial target set for them. I do not see any new sanction in the Minister's suggestion by which he can guarantee that CIE will live within the new formula. This year CIE, by their own borrowing, will pick up the sum the Government have left them short. This is very worrying. I do not think we could ever envisage that the answer to Government deficit financing in CIE was to allow them to raise the loan themselves on the basis of Government guarantees at the end of the day. I am worried that unless there is some way of sanctioning the meeting of the various targets being set by CIE, this new proposal will fall flat on its face.

But there are more fundamental questions as well. We all recognise that there is a social value in public transport worthy of the taxpayers' subsidy, but I suggest it is not uniform for all CIE services. I do not think it is true to say that the value of carrying freight by rail or road would have the same social desirability as carrying elderly passengers. It is begging the question if the Government and the Dáil step back and say that in their view a 33 per cent subsidy should apply equally to the commercial transport sector, the private passenger sector, the city versus rural services and so on. If the taxpayer is to make these subsidies available it is essential that he knows exactly where the losses are occurring, and he should then decide what subsidies are to be made on the basis of what he deems to be the social values coming from those services. In this proposal to grant a 33 per cent subsidy right across the board, we have stepped back from that decision which, in my view, is the job of the Government. Even if the Government want to step back, the reality is that if politically sensitive decisions are made about cutting particular services or increasing fares, motions will be put down in Private Members' time and the Government will have to make decisions. I do not think we should be forced into such a position.

The Government and the Department should consider the social desirability of the services at a very early stage and base their subvention on that analysis. It is worth while pointing out that both NESC and McKinsey, who reported on public transport, recognised the need for a more active Government role in this sphere. They saw decisions on pricing and major changes in the transport system as the job of the Government. Here we are, going against what has been recommended. I submit that there is a need to look again at that system of subventing. Another aspect that should be borne in mind is that even where there is a social case for subsidising — and we accept there is a loss which must be subsidised from State funds — it is not necessarily correct that the loss incurred by CIE should be picked up by the taxpayer. The subsidy should be based on least cost providers of transport and we should not rule out the possibility of that by using transporters other than CIE. The door is closed to some extent on that option by this global subsidy.

I am encouraged to learn that the major decisions on the structure of CIE, as discussed by McKinsey, are under consideration. Once again, I feel that the global subsidy undermines the possibility of making the sort of decisions McKinsey envisaged. He was envisaging the division of public transport into different spheres of operation. For example, Dublin city transport would be a separate organisation. That possibility would be undermined by an across the board subsidy. There is a danger, as Deputy Wilson pointed out, that CIE tend to look upon themselves in the light of a railway company primarily and the logic in splitting the company is to try to set separate transports for rail and for bus. That possibility should not be lost in setting a five-year target which would not allow looking at Dublin city buses separately.

To enforce that point I would like to quote from a report of 2 July when Dr. Liam St. John Devlin responded to the Minister's new system. He said, as reported in The Irish Times, that the overall Government subvention of 33 per cent cost would not be applied uniformly. The railway runs at about 50 per cent of this total cost and generally on the buses we work to about a 23 per cent subvention. At the moment the Dublin city bus service runs at 76 per cent of revenue and we would have to lift that to about 82 per cent which would leave us sufficient to maintain the railway. He went on to say that the gap on the railway between 51 and 52 per cent of revenue and 33 per cent subvention can only be made up by reducing the subvention on the Dublin city bus and the provincial buses. Obviously there is an intention in CIE to use the global guidelines given by the Minister in a way that will victimise Dublin city transport in order to support the railway. That is worrying. A decision such as that should be made by the Government rather than by the board of CIE.

I would like to turn now to some other aspects. I welcome, in conjunction with the Minister and Deputy Wilson, the appointment of Paul Conlon as the new executive chairman. I have no doubt there will be a plethora of advice handed out to him. I would ask him to address himself to one problem in particular in relation to Dublin city bus services. I refer to the decline in passengers. Although one of the contributing factors to this decline has been the growth in car ownership, that is not the sole reason why passengers are leaving the bus service in such vast numbers. Inflexibility has contributed in some measure to this decline. The principal weakness is that CIE seem to lack a marketing arm in their promotion of Dublin city buses. They do not seem to be conscious of passenger needs and what is required if they are to attract and maintain passengers. The last marketing analysis took place back in 1971. The sort of thing I am talking about is knowing from where one's passengers are coming, what market share there is of school goers and of women going to work. It is only on the basis of that information a service can be provided in response to need. There is a serious lack of that sort of information. There is even a serious lack of interest in such information. The new chairman must look at that aspect because without proper marketing and the provision of the sort of services passengers need the decline in passengers will continue.

I cannot recall, and this extends over a number of years, any advertising of new packages for bus users in Dublin. CIE should be thinking on the lines of a new deal for Dublin city bus users. That has to be contrasted with an attitude to the Sunday rail services they run. McKinsey recommended that these services should be closed down because they had no longer any social value. He recommended that this service could, without serious disruption, be closed down. Actually CIE are promoting that service while, at the same time, not offering any better deal to the hard pressed city bus traveller. There is a wrong approach to marketing. We have not had a route and frequency review in Dublin for many years despite radical changes in population. The same basic services continue. It is high time that situation was examined.

Again, if we want to attract passengers the fare structure must be examined. It is far too rigid. There should, for instance, be a single fare if one is using a bus from the north side to the south side instead of having to change buses and pay two separate fares. That pushes up the cost to the traveller especially where minimum fares are operated. There has been no introduction of off-peak fares designed to attract passengers. People should be encouraged to use the bus even if they are only travelling to the next stop. Very often one sees buses travelling with very few passengers. Short journeys should be encouraged. There is no need, outside of peak hour traffic, to have minimum fares.

CIE have been very slow about locations for selling tickets. Such outlets would attract more people. The failure to attract people at off peak times is a big problem. About 40 per cent of the fleet is required for peak time usage. We have, therefore, a very under-utilised bus fleet at various times in the day. That is pushing up the cost to the taxpayer eventually. The onus is on CIE to look at how they can attract people to take advantage of their transport. There have been a number of reports in recent weeks about one-man bus negotiations. These negotiations appear to be moving towards a conclusion. If there is agreement on that plus a movement to smaller and more reliable buses, that will give CIE a unique opportunity to start looking at the possibility of greater flexibility.

Debate adjourned.
Sitting suspended at 1.30 p.m. and resumed at 2.30 p.m.
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