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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 8 Feb 1984

Vol. 347 No. 10

Appointment of Representative to European Parliament.

I move:

That Dáil Éireann hereby appoints Mr. Justin Keating of Bishopland, Ballymore Eustace, County Kildare (who has been nominated in accordance with section 15 of the European Assembly Elections Act, 1977, by The Labour Party) to be a representative in the Assembly of the European Communities for the constituency of Leinster in place of Mr. Séamus Pattison who was nominated in accordance with section 15 of the fore-mentioned Act by The Labour Party and who was appointed by Dáil Éireann and who has resigned as a representative in the Assembly with effect from 16th December, 1983.

I have paid tribute already to Deputy Séamus Pattison, whose work in the Assembly was of unfailing diligence and whose knowledge and understanding of the Social Fund and its potential will stand him in good stead in his current appointment.

I wish also to say a word about Justin Keating. I regard him as one who could hardly be better qualified to represent this country in the Assembly of the European Parliament. A distinguished member of Government from 1973 to 1977, a gifted commentator on public affairs, and a man with a deep and abiding interest in matters political, agricultural, and cultural, he will bring an added dimension to our representation in the European Parliament.

I wish, too, to take this opportunity to set the record straight in relation to the spurious charge, usually purveyed on occasions such as this, that my party have somehow downgraded the importance of our European representation. Although Fianna Fáil have frequently levelled this charge at us in the past, they have never accused their own partners in the European Progressive Democrats, The French Gaullists, of downgrading the importance of the European Parliament, although no fewer than 40 of that party's deputies have occupied the 15 seats held by that party in the lifetime of the Parliament.

The facts in relation to rotation of seats are these, and it is important that they be clearly understood: The total numbers of changes in the European Parliament has been 102 — 103 including this proposed change.

The changes from each member state has been as follows: Belgium, 12; Denmark, two; Greece, four; UK, one; France, 46; and Ireland, seven as of today.

In the Socialist Group since 1979 there have been 35 changes out of a total membership of 125. These replaced members who had become: President — Mitterand of France; Prime Ministers — Mauroy of France and Craxi of Italy; Commissioner — Pisari of France; and Ministers in Ireland, France, Italy, Greece and Denmark and ambassadors, Ceann Comhairle, and other positions. By contrast, the Gaullists, who are Fianna Fáil's partners in the Group of European Progressive Democrats, practice a rotation system known as the Tourniquet system. Under this system every member on their electoral list for the 1979 elections had to sign a declaration that he or she would resign after one year. In fact 15 French Gaullists were elected in 1979 but 40 members have sat in the European Parliament. The main reasons have been their pledge and party pressure and some of their seats have changed hands five times.

I am asking the House to accept the nomination I am putting forward today.

There are a number of points I should like to make in relation to the proposed appointment of Mr. Keating. We are now in the position where none of the people elected to represent the Labour Party in Europe is holding a seat in the European Parliament. In the case of the Dublin area there have been changes on two occasions, while there has been one change in respect of the Munster area and two changes also in so far as the Leinster area is concerned.

The Tánaiste raises the question of the Gaullists in France, but those deputies who were elected in France to represent the Gaullists went before the electorate on the basis that they would be changed each year. On the other hand those elected in Ireland to represent us in Europe were elected on the basis that, obviously barring death or ill health, they would serve the full five-year term. It is unsatisfactory that there should be so many changes of our representatives in Europe. In these circumstances I urge the Government to introduce a more realistic and practical way of replacing people who, for whatever reason, resign their positions. I understand that at least two alternative systems have been suggested, one being that there would be named substitutes on the ballot paper at election time and another being that the next in line to those elected, irrespective of party allegiance, would replace those who had to resign. That would be a far better procedure than the one we are adopting whereby a replacement is chosen, first by the political party whose seat is being vacated and then by way of them being brought before the House. It is not satisfactory that the electorate, having selected people to represent them in Europe, should not have a say as to whom should replace those representatives.

(Dublin North-West): I do not have anything personal against Mr. Keating but I do not agree with his methods. Long before he was elected to Dáil Éireann he spent a considerable length of time in presenting a television programme. On that programme he advocated the benefits that would accrue to Ireland as a result of membership of the EEC but strangely, when Mr. Keating joined the Labour Party he and that party canvassed against our joining the Common Market.

How right we were.

(Dublin North-West): The point I am making is that Mr. Keating is very inconsistent. Irrespective of what the Tánaiste says, the entire Labour Party have made a laughing stock of the whole question of our representation in Europe. Their attitude in this regard can be likened to a game of draught, with one member going and another coming back. A former leader of the party was an MEP for some time before coming back to take a Dáil seat but he has decided to go forward again for election to Europe. It is only right that these matters be put on record.

No more than anyone else here I have no personal antagonism towards Mr. Keating. He is a former Member of the House and a former member of Government. During his term in office he was the subject of some criticism, though that might be said of all Minister, but he carried out his duties conscientiously and I am sure he will act in that conscientious way, too, during the brief period in which he will be representing us in Europe. If any member of the public was asked to name off the top of his head the members of the Labour Party who have been appointed in the lottery within the Labour Party to fill vacancies in the European Parliament I do not think he could do so. There is no doubt that the perks of the European Parliament were utilised by the Labour Party in a rather unfortunate way. I hope the people who will be voting in the European elections next June will note the performance of the Labour Party during the past five years. Apart from anything else we have had very little return for the time the 14 or 16 members——

The number is 11.

So far it is 11 but there are still six months to go. To say the least their performance in the European Parliament has been lackadaisical and has not brought any particular benefits or credit to their constituencies. One would have to search very hard to find any benefits to the Leinster constituency as a result of the efforts of Labour MEPs. We had a rather freakish election five years ago. Fianna Fáil were in Government and we had various crises with the trade unions so far as bin collections and postal strikes were concerned. We had a former Labour Minister publicly picketing the office he once held. Two Labour representatives were returned to the European Parliament and at that time we were told their total commitment was to Europe. The people assumed this was correct. As a distinguished Member of this House described it today, they used it as a public convenience and that about sizes it up. It has been a public lottery within the Labour Party. They talk about the "mercs and perks brigade" in Fine Gael and Fianna Fáil and they are very sanctimonious about it but the Labour Party have used the European Parliament simply as a way of rewarding people who were a little bored doing what they should do, namely, looking after their constituency.

Is that why the Deputy is so anxious to get to Europe?

I am seeking to get there to rectify the awful mess the Fine Gael and Labour MEPs in the Dublin area have left.

It is a case of sending a boy on a man's mission.

The Labour MEPs have not sought to highlight the deficiencies within the European Parliament. They have done little to help their consitituencies in the matter of grants that are available. I hope the Labour Party will commit themselves to a number of matters when they put forward their candidates. I hope it will not be a question of a candidate resigning and handing the seat to a pal.

Deputy De Rossa suggested that there should be a list system. I hope the list system that will be brought in will be acceptable. I am sure the Tánaiste will agree that it is undesirable that the present practice should continue. Ireland cannot remain isolated from the mainstream of European thought from the political, social and economic points of view. We must be a part of Europe.

The people who will be elected in June for the Leinster constituency should give a commitment to the concept of the European ideal, something that has been lacking in the commitment from the Labour Party in the past five years. The people in Dublin deeply regret that lack of commitment to the European ideal and to the concept of European unity on the part of the Labour Party.

In what I have said I hope I have not offended Mr. Keating, a man for whom I have enormous respect. I am sure that in this short intervening period he will do his utmost on behalf of the people of Leinster.

It does not give one any pleasure to have to deal with this matter. The cynical approach of the Labour Party in swapping seats in the European Parliament has been quite disgraceful. It has shown utter contempt for the European Parliament. We have a situation where we have yesterday's men taking up today's posts. Mr. Keating had virtually retired from politics but he is now reemerging within the Labour Party. This is evidence of the lack of imagination, policy and of personnel within that party. They are now part and parcel of the Fine Gael Party and they do not have an identity of their own.

Mr. Keating is replacing Minister of State, Deputy Pattison, who replaced Deputy Kavanagh in the European Parliament. Mr. Keating is not representative of the people of Leinster. He did not go before them in the European elections in 1979. Indeed, he was rejected by his own electorate in the general election and he declined to go forward for the Seanad. Eventually he turned up as a broadcaster. He returned to RTE where, seemingly, they had held a place for him in their programme schedule even though they have an abundance of talent. This is evident from the fact that the programme entitled "Keating on Sunday" has been replaced by another programme. The programme "Keating on Sunday" served one purpose and one purpose only, namely to promote one of their own friends for a place in Europe. It is quite evident that RTE have been involved in supporting a candidate for replacing Deputy Pattison as a member of the European Parliament.

A sinister plot.

When RTE decided to appoint Mr. Keating as presenter of the programme "Keating on Sunday" I said in the House that RTE were involved in a political operation with the Labour Party. Their connection with and friendship for Justin Keating has allowed him to re-emerge as a member of the European Parliament. The programme was a disaster. The rating was very low. I had one opportunity to see part of the programme and I found it the most disappointing programme ever presented on television. We had this pompous individual presenting his views in such a way that we were not sure if he was a member of the Labour Party or if he was trying to promote himself within the Labour Party for a job. RTE will have to be very careful when they are appointing yesterday's politicians for jobs because yesterday's polticians in the Labour Party become tomorrow's people.

I want to refer to a replacement of the European Parliament, Brendan Halligan MEP. At one stage he replaced Deputy Cluskey or was it Deputy O'Connell or was it Deputy Michael O'Leary or some other member? The Tánaiste might be able to tell who actually served in the Dublin constituency for the Labour Party. The people elected were Deputy John O'Connell and Deputy Michael O'Leary. Deputy O'Leary became Minister and resigned from the European Parliament. Then he jumped the fence and joined the Fine Gael Party. Deputy O'Connell also jumped the fence and left the Labour Party and at one stage he was replaced by Deputy Cluskey and is now replaced by Brendan Halligan and Senator Flor O'Mahony. Mr. Brendan Halligan had the audacity to go to the European Parliament and vote in favour of abortion. I object to that.

Will the Deputy confine himself to the motion?

I might be upsetting your sensitivity but——

You are not. I am trying to help you.

I know the Chair is antiabortion because during the campaign he came out against the Labour Party on this issue.

This motion is dealing with the selection of Mr. Justin Keating.

I am referring to Brendan Halligan who replaced another member of the European Parliament. Now Justin Keating will be putting forward his personal views in Europe but he was not prepared to put those views before the electorate. The elected MEPs went before the electorate but Brendan Halligan has disgraced himself in the European Parliament by his vote. In my view he should be expelled from any political party in this State of which he is a member. I am delighted the Tánaiste has dissociated himself from Mr. Halligan's vote in favour of abortion in the European Parliament because it is a disgrace to this country that one of our members should vote for abortion.

Mr. Justin Keating's name is before this House for endorsement. We are not in favour of this kind of approach. I have nothing against Justin Keating although he served here at one time but in my view he should have gone before the electorate. The jack-in-the-box operation of the Labour Party — putting them in office, giving them jobs and keeping them in their places — is wrong. On 14 June when the European elections are held, the local elections should also take place.

That is not relevant to item No. 4.

It is relevant and important. I will confine myself to discussing this motion dealing with the selection of Mr. Justin Keating. Mr. Keating will be taking his place in the European Parliament because that is what this Government have decided to do. He will serve as a member of that Parliament for approximately three months before the European elections. He is being appointed to improve his chances of being elected to Europe on 14 June. I believe his chances of being elected are very slim because as a member of the Labour Party he will be associated with the disastrous performance of the Labour Party in this Government, a Labour Party conniving with the Fine Gael Government to bring about a situation where there are 45,700 more people unemployed than there were on 14 December 1982. He will go before the people of Leinster in June but I am giving him a warning that he will be rejected by the electorate in Leinster. His stay in Europe will be very short. I wish him a very short trip in Europe.

I never heard such ráiméis in all my life.

Was Deputy McLoughlin not after the job himself?

The Labour Party is a democratic party and as a member of that party I was approached and asked to consider putting my name forward for Europe. When Mr. Justin Keating was nominated, and taking into account the calibre of the man who had been a Minister in the Government from 1973 to 1977, the delegates decided by 7-1 that he was the right man for Labour in Europe. I have no doubt that he will be the best candidate to be put before the Irish electorate for the European elections this year.

I want to comment on what Deputy Leyden said. I was surprised that he left himself as open as a 12 foot gate when he mentioned RTE. I hope I can rig a "Today Tonight" programme and give Justin Keating as soft a political interview as Deputy Doherty got on the "Late Late Show". If we can get television broadcasts like that Mr. Justin Keating will head the poll. Deputy Leyden said Justin Keating was rejected by the electorate in 1977; so were the previous Government. Fianna Fáil had the majority of 21 but four years later the electorate realised the mistake they had made ——

What relevance has that to item No. 4?

Deputy Leyden came in here and made several false statements. He said Justin Keating was rejected in 1977 ——

Yes, that is right.

He said he did not go forward for the Seanad. Deputy Leyden should check the facts. Mr. Justin Keating was elected to the Seanad on the Agricultural Panel and served in the Seanad from 1977 to 1981.

Did he go for election in 1982?

He did not, because he was in bad health. He has now recovered and is in very good health. I am sure Mr. Justin Keating will be elected to Europe and as a member of the Labour Party I will be proud to vote for him. The main reason Fianna Fáil are worried about the selection of Justin Keating is that ——

We are not worried; this is a disgraceful lottery ——

We are proud of our performance in Europe. At the next election our slogan will be similar to that of 1979 — Be with the biggest in Europe and the best in Ireland, vote Labour.

I did not intend to contribute to this debate but having heard some of the remarks which have been made, I find it necessary to put the record straight. It should be made clear that the replacement procedure going through this House is exactly the same as that put through by a Fianna Fáil Government. Listening to Fianna Fáil Members, one would think that the system of replacement was ——

It was agreed by the Labour Party.

I did not say it was not agreed. I did not interrupt the Deputy although I felt like it a few times, but I try to be orderly in this House. The impression is deliberately being created that this system was invented by the Labour Party. This system was laid down by a decision of this House, put through the House by a Fianna Fáil Minister for the Environment and agreed by the then Minister for Foreign Affairs, Deputy O'Kennedy.

There is not anything being done here which is in any way underhanded, illegal or about which there is any doubt. It is strictly in accordance with the law of this land, and that is the way it should be. I did not think it was necessary to put that record straight again. It is a fact that the European Parliament has questioned that procedure and that proposals are being formulated to amend the legislation in that regard. But we can have another debate on that when it comes before this House as to whether it is the best kind of system. That will receive its airing on the day.

I was amazed at Deputy Niall Andrews's remarks. As a person seeking to be a candidate himself I should have thought he would have acquainted himself at least with what has been going on in the European Parliament in recent years, and had he done so he would not have made the statements he did make. There will be plenty of time for this in coming months. The record of the Labour Party members of the Socialist group in the European Parliament, their participation at plenary sessions, their involvement at committee meetings, at all other activities, their attendances and votes compare more than favourably with members of Deputy Andrews's party, members who hold a single mandate. That is a matter of record, not just hearsay.

What did they bring us back? They did nothing.

The impression was being given that because of the system of changes that has gone on here people have suffered in some way. Indeed there was the impression created that people appointed to these positions by the Labour Party over those years had not attended to their duties in the European Parliament. These are matters of fact, of record. I expect those facts will be thrown up in discussion on television, in the newspapers and media generally when the people will be able to form a judgment as to whom and which groups had the greatest input and devoted most attention to their duties. For example, take the question of employment. Here again I think it was Deputy Leyden who wanted the election fought on local or on national issues. Obviously he did not want the election fought on European issues, on how the European Parliament and its various political groupings had approached the problems of unemployment, the major problem not alone for this country but for Europe, and the records of those political groupings in relation to what they proposed about the unemployment problem. This is what we want debated in the European election.

Of course the Deputy does.

Yes, because we are talking here about the record of the members of the European Parliament representing this country in Europe. That is what this June election is all about. I know it disappoints the Fianna Fáil Party that there are not local elections being held in order to keep people's minds off the major issues in Europe that were debated, voted on and discussed in depth at the European level. I am one of those people who fully support the contention that the European elections should be fought without any local or other kind of election taking place simultaneously. It is time that people were able to judge the workings of the European Parliament and, above all, the performance of the various people in the Parliament, that the central issue in the European election would not be overshadowed by any issues of a local authority or national nature.

Of course the Deputy wants to get away from national issues.

If the Deputy wants me to talk about the issue of neutrality in the European Parliament and the record ——

The Deputy should adhere to Item No. 4.

We are talking about the performance of people in the European Parliament, the way they vote and work.

Talk about Brendan Halligan and abortion.

We can talk about the neutrality issue, too. I do not want to go any further on that for the simple reason that the people about whom we are talking are not here with us today. Now that it has been decided to hold the European elections on their own, I know they will be able to demonstrate what they have done, what they have endeavoured to do, when the people will be in a position to form a clear judgment on the European aspect of these major problems.

There has been reference to the proposed candidate, Mr. Justin Keating. He is an eminently suitable and able person. At one time he was President of the Council of Ministers when Ireland held the Presidency in the mid-seventies. He is well suited in all respects for that position. There has been reference also to his rejection by the Irish electorate. I take it such reference is to the loss of his Dáil seat. It should be remembered that he is not the only member of the European Parliament who failed to regain a Dáil seat. There are at least two Fianna Fáil members of the European Parliament who were rejected, if one wants to use that term, by the Irish electorate. But that, in itself, does not render them any less worthy to be there.

They were elected to the European Parliament.

Yes, and these people are being selected for the European Parliament in accordance with the law of this land. That is the point I want to reiterate. Again the inference is being drawn that there is something illegal in the way these members are being appointed.

We are not saying anything about the legality of it. We are just saying it is incompetence and expediency on the part of the Labour Party.

I had not intended to intervene in this debate.

But the Deputy was forced to.

But I felt it my duty having regard to the utter lack of basic knowledge of what has been going on in Europe.

We know what the Labour Party have not being doing in Europe.

I hope that those who aspire to being candidates at least will acquaint themselves of the record of the European Parliament. If they did that they might then acquire different views and might not have said all that they did today.

There is little to be said at this stage. There was a certain lack of quality and substance in remarks made by Deputies on the other side of the House, so little remains for me.

Little remains all right.

Deputy N. Andrews seems rather concerned about the Labour Party's participation both in national Government and in the European Parliament. Perhaps I should explain to the Deputy, if he will behave himself — although, personally, I would rather pick the brother if I was picking one of the Andrews——

(Interruptions.)

There appeared to be something in 1979——

It would bring some fresh air into it.

There seemed in 1979 something sacrosanct about the nominating of Fianna Fáil non-Deputies to stand for the European Parliament. That obviously was a time when Fianna Fáil were in Government and could not spare the big guns who are now going to be paraded before the people in June of 1984. The Deputy will also appreciate that because of Deputy Haughey's decision to run for cover in 1981, about 18 months before he was constitutionally required to do so, the Labour Party members of the European Parliament had the choice of representing our party in Government and in its formation. Like any working politicians, they made a practical choice and are no less people for that. If Deputy Andrews is successful in his election campaign for Europe, and I wish him well in it, I am sure that if he is offered, in eight or nine years time down the line, the opportunity of participating in Government he will do what any practical working politician would do and he would be rather short-sighted and foolish not to take up an invitation to represent his country in this Parliament and in Government.

Deputy De Rossa had some comments to make as to the method of selection by the Labour Party. It may be worth reflecting on the whole question of the method by which The Workers' Party have selected their candidates for the European election, those of them who have been selected or on whom the finger has been put. At least the Labour Party went through, and at all times go through, a democratic process of having conventions. All branches in the Leinster constituency were represented on this occasion. This will also apply in the course of the forthcoming election. In stark contrast, The Workers' Party's central executive committee apparently decided that they would nominate the people that they decided to put before the electorate. Not exactly a lesson in democracy, I might say.

Just as surely as day follows night, I expected somebody from the Fianna Fáil benches to raise MEP Halligan's choice of vote in the European Parliament. Deputy Leyden, in true character, was the man. I have been looking at the records in this House over the past 20 or 30 years and there will always be somebody who goes for the bottom, right at base. I thought that I could expect more from Deputy Leyden.

Is the Minister, then, embarrassed by it?

I made my position perfectly clear and I thank the Deputy for making it clear for me in the House. There will always be somebody who goes for the lowest common denominator, in true tradition in this House.

That is Brendan Halligan's vote.

I am rather surprised at Deputy Leyden's sinister concoction in relation to Mr. Justin Keating's participation on a Sunday programme. Judging by his own constituency colleague's recent performance on television, Deputy Leyden might need "Leyden on Monday" if he is going to keep up his own act. I am sure it can be arranged and he would expect us in Government to have the facilities to arrange it for him. I can assure him that I would love to oblige him on this occasion.

I do not need it.

I can assure the Deputy that there were no plots. If Justin Keating managed to bring that about to get himself into the European Parliament, more power to his left arm. I do not think that happens and I am sure that Deputy Leyden would not believe that it would happen in that manner.

I thank the Members for their contributions.

Is the motion agreed?

Agreed, with serious reservations.

Question put and agreed to.
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