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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 8 Feb 1984

Vol. 347 No. 10

Dairy Produce (Miscellaneous Provisions) (Amendment) Bill, 1984: Second Stage.

I move: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

This Bill provides for the amendment and extension of the Dairy Produce (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act, 1973. Essentially, the Bill involves the continuance of the guarantee which, with the consent of the Minister for Finance, I may give in respect of loans obtained by An Bord Bainne Co-operative Limited.

An Bord Bainne Co-operative Limited were established by the Irish dairy industry in 1972 and took over from the semi-State body An Bord Bainne. The essential purpose of the board is the purchase and centralised marketing of dairy products produced by their members. Due to the seasonality of the production of milk and dairy products in Ireland and the fact that sales by the board are effected on a fairly even pattern throughout the year, they are obliged to borrow heavily to enable them purchase their members production during the peak production period. The board's assets — in spite of the fact that they have shown commendable growth in recent years — are not yet sufficient to enable them to borrow to the very substantial extent necessary and it was to assist the board in borrowing that the State guarantee was provided by the 1973 Act and enlarged and extended in 1976, 1977 and 1979.

The initial State guarantee in 1973 provided coverage for borrowings by the board up to a maximum at any one time of £20 million. This figure was increased to £40 million in 1976 and to £90 million in 1979. The purpose of the Bill before the House is to extend the application of the guarantee, which expired at the end of last year, for a six-year period to 31 December 1989 and to broaden the guarantee's scope to cover a range of borrowings, thereby bringing it more into line with the actual pattern of Bord Bainne's credit needs. Previously, the guarantee covered only ‘loans', as strictly defined and it is felt that the amendment proposed now will increase the flexibility and usefulness of the guarantee to the board. Also the additional six years will afford the board a reasonable opportunity to accelerate the build-up of their own resources and so become less reliant on State backing for a proportion of their borrowings. The maximum amount of the guarantee is to be retained at the level of £90 million. In essence, we are guaranteeing £90 million up to 1990.

The dairy industry is the backbone of much of our agricultural industry. Its continued expansion is of immense importance for the economic and social development of our country, but its continued prosperity is greatly dependent on maximising efficiency in processing and marketing. Centralised marketing of dairy products has a major role to play by enabling us to develop and exploit markets in a planned and economical way and by earning and maintaining an internationally respected position for Irish dairy products.

Since we joined the Communities Irish milk deliveries have increased by about 72 per cent. The value of the milk intake of creameries and other processing plants has increased by almost 100 per cent in the same period. Marketing this extra production has, of course, been a major task and one which has been accomplished with success and, until recently, little reliance on intervention. That this is so, is an indication of the role played by Bord Bainne who have successfully sold an expanding range of Irish dairy products in an increasing number of international markets. By 1982 the total value of Irish dairy exports was £710 million per year, or about 12 per cent of the value of all our exports.

We are at the present time facing an extremely difficult situation both within the EEC and in the international market place. We face proposals from Brussels aimed at restricting Community milk production to the 1981 levels and at reducing the cost for the Community budget of support for the milk sector. These proposals will continue to be the subject of negotiation in the Council of Ministers in the coming months, as will the Commission's parallel farm-price proposals for 1984-85.

As the House probably knows, these talks commenced yesterday. We are talking about the Commission's original proposals and subsequent progress which was made up to and including the Athens Summit in tandem with the Commission's price proposals for the 1984-85 marketing year. When I speak about the difficulty in the international market place I would like to point out that the milk problem is aggravated by production in third countries, that is countries outside the EEC. That is why I make reference to the international market place. Not alone has the EEC been overproducing milk in recent years but the United States had also been overproducing vast quantities of milk. We have to compete with them on the world markets. This makes our task of getting rid of our own surpluses all the more difficult. Bord Bainne have seen a number of their markets disappear because of competition from the USA.

We had a very good market in Mexico for milk products which we lost because our price was undercut by the Americans. There are also markets in other parts of the world in the Caribbean, South America and North Africa, a portion or all of which we have lost because of price cutting. The Americans have set in motion methods to reduce their milk output with the objective of getting rid of their surplus. The EEC has now in train an endeavour to do likewise.

We also face competition in the international market place from New Zealand. It is not just to Britain or to the EEC that they sell butter and dairy products. They sell them throughout the world and we again have difficulty in competing with them in some of the areas which I mentioned, particularly in North Africa and the Middle East. They have got to sell their agricultural produce because of their small internal domestic market. The international market place has become vastly overcrowded in recent years with dairy products and is a very large contributory factor to the problems in the EEC in getting rid of its surplus milk and milk products. While talking about the price proposals from the Commission in 1984-85 for milk, while formally a freeze has been proposed, related technical changes would result in a price reduction. I will refer to that later on. The Government are not under any illusion that the task facing us will be an easy one but we are fully determined to secure agreement or arrangements which are fair and balanced and which take due account of our special situation in regard to milk.

Our primary objective is to ensure that our dairy industry can face the future with confidence. But it is obvious that now more than ever before, efficiency in production, processing and marketing will be of crucial importance. If indeed we ever could afford the luxury of running our dairy industry at less than optimum efficiency, we certainly cannot afford it from now on. The central importance of dairying to the agricultural industry in Ireland and to the national economy as a whole is understood now as never before. All who work in it must do their utmost to see that we maximise the contribution it can make to our overall prosperity. Bord Bainne's pivotal role in all this involves an increasing challenge in the future.

It is now clearly essential that we make an all-out effort to reduce our present heavy dependence upon intervention. Because of the limited size of our domestic market and increasingly difficult trading conditions in our major traditional market, the UK, this means that henceforth, we must make more efforts than we have ever made before to sell competitively on other markets.

Not alone must we increase sales of existing products in present and new markets, but we must also develop new products and identify new market opportunities. New product development is, however, a slow and expensive process requiring heavy investment over a long number of years. Yet if we are to market successfully our anticipated increasing milk output in the years ahead, product development and diversification are areas in which we cannot afford not to get involved. I am greatly heartened that Bord Bainne have definite proposals in this area.

In extending the State guarantee as now proposed, we shall be giving tangible support to the board and recognition that the board's ability to obtain the finance necessary for their operations, as easily and economically as possible, is clearly of vital importance. As I have already stated, the backing of a State guarantee is still necessary for the present if the board are to discharge their essential function in the best and most efficient way. In providing the guarantee the Government or taxpayer have not had to pay one penny to Bord Bainne. They have been able to operate on a commercial basis without taking up the guarantee which is an indication of their ability to trade in this area and an indication of their competence. Hence my proposal to extend the guarantee for six years and to make it more responsive to the board's actual borrowing needs.

The existence of the State guarantee has up to the present enabled An Bord Bainne Co-operative Limited to obtain adequate borrowing facilities to meet its funding requirements. No claims have ever been made under the State guarantee and no question of expenditure by the Exchequer has arisen up to now; neither is any such claim likely to arise in the future. The present Bill, therefore, affords the House a timely opportunity to demonstrate our confidence both in An Bord Bainne and in the future success of Irish dairying.

I want to make a few further points. There is such a thing as credibility in all these negotiations and that credibility applies in Europe just as it does here at home. We have been negotiating the milk super-levy proposal together with some dozens of other proposals which were put forward by the Commission last July. We have been discussing those for about six months now. It has been tough. As well as negotiating we have been lobbying our European colleagues, and I am glad to say that they have recognised for the last couple of months, since Athens, that we have a real difficulty in accepting that the milk super-levy proposal should apply to Ireland. Our negotiating and our lobbying have been extremely effective in getting this recognition. I heard yesterday that Deputy Noonan raised the matter of my statement on the super-levy. I do not know why it should be raised. It was the same as I have said all along, that there is a need for a super-levy within the EEC but we are adamant that we should be exempt from such a levy. That is what we said on Monday and yesterday in Brussels and we will continue to say it.

As I have said, there is an acceptance that we have a very special case. The degree of the acceptance by other countries of our special position varies. Some countries, while recognising that it would create enormous difficulties for our economy, nevertheless feel that we should share the burden of the cuts which have to be made in the dairying sector, and that if the whole CAP and the price support system are not to collapse these cuts must be made. The alternative to a milk super-levy would be direct price cuts which would amount to approximately 10p per gallon of milk. I do not want anybody to go away with the impression that by shooting down the milk super-levy the problem of over-production of milk in Europe will go away. I do not believe anybody could be so stupid or unrealistic. The problem will not go away, and the obvious alternative if there is not to be a milk super-levy is a direct cut in price which it is quite clear would be much more detrimental to agriculture and to the economy of this country. If anybody has any bright ideas as to other alternatives I would be only too delighted to hear from that person. If anybody is so naive as to think that nothing will happen, that prices will increase or at the very worst remain static if we do not deal with the problem of over-production of milk in Europe, that is just too bad because that is not reality, it is fairy-tale. Nobody could be so naive as to think something need not be done about over-production of milk. Something must be done but I have yet to hear anybody give me any alternative to the milk super-levy or a direct cut in price. If somebody has some brilliant scheme which has not been bandied about previously I will be only too delighted to hear about it especially if it would be to our benefit and if it meant that we would not have to take any share of the cuts.

In the past we have demanded, and we will continue to demand in resumed negotiations, that Ireland be granted a complete exemption from the super-levy on the grounds that its implementation here would have a most serious and disproportionate effect on not only Irish agriculture but on the economy as a whole. We require this exemption until at least we reach the level of development which is the norm in the dairy industry elsewhere in the Community.

As Deputies know, the Greek Presidency last autumn advocated that the milk super-levy proposal be for a period of four years with a review after three years. We support that view and feel that such action may well solve the problem created by the over-production of milk within the Community. In other words, if the super-levy proposal were to come in and to bite — as I think it will — it would encourage a great many of the intensive producers in Europe to reduce their production or, better still, to get out of milk production completely and, who knows, at the end of four years we could have a completely new ball game. I do not want to sound over-optimistic, but it is possible that milk production in Europe at the end of the four-year period would be in deficit. It could happen. If we could be exempted from the rigours of the super-levy for that four-year period we might find that come 1988-89 we were in a position to take off and continue to increase production all over again. It is a very interesting outlook, but of course at this stage it is all just supposition. However, I am hopeful that the super-levy proposal if implemented for those countries which have caused the problems would reduce milk production immediately and bring us back to where we could continue ad infinitum to increase the milk output. It is vital that we get rid of the surpluses which are putting a severe strain on the Community's resources and we are insistent that the countries which created the financial difficulties bear the burden of the cost of its elimination, and that is a terribly important aspect. These are the people who have involved themselves in factory-type farming, who have imported vast quantities of cereal substitutes from third countries in order to boost their production. We do not see why we should have to pay for their indulgence in this regard because we did not benefit from those cheap imports or massive factory-type farming which has generated huge profits. This is where we take issue with other countries at the negotiations. We will continue to make that point clearly in the future.

So far in our negotiations we have made considerable progress although some politicians here maintain we have not. I can truthfully say that we have not met one farmer who is not pleased with the rate of progress the Government have made to date in the super-levy negotiations.

The Minister must be staying in Dublin city all the time; he must have changed residence.

I have not. I met many farmers and they appreciate that the Government have been doing a very good job.

(Limerick West): Is the Minister serious?

Absolutely. I should like to illustrate the reason for the satisfaction of farmers. The original Commission proposal in July last year was that milk production in all Community countries should be tied at 1981 levels plus 1 per cent. At the Athens Summit in December an offer was made that Ireland should be allowed to produce milk at the 1983 level plus 10 per cent.

(Limerick West): Is that offer still on the table?

I have told the House that it was the last offer that was made.

(Limerick West) Is the offer still on the table? Is that our negotiating position from now on?

We are all aware that the Athens Summit did not reach any conclusion. It did not come to any conclusion on the super-levy or on agricultural spending in general. It did not come to a conclusion on any of the major topics before it.

(Limerick West): The Minister is rambling again.

The Minister has shifted his policy.

The summit did not reach a conclusion on any matters, whether it was the future financing of the Community, the British budgetary refund debate, or the proposed accession of Spain and Portugal. Deputy Noonan has asked me if the December offer is still on the table. As the Deputy will be aware, that proposal was put forward by the Greek President on the Community and the Greek Presidency ended on 31 December last. We now have a French President.

(Limerick West): I am aware of that but I am anxious to know if that is the base that we will be starting from.

There has not been agreement on any aspect of the proposals put to the Athens Summit.

(Limerick West): Therefore, we are back to the original proposals put forward by the Commission?

We are not.

I wonder if Deputies opposite recall the 2 per cent levy, because the farming community did not get over that one. Do Deputies opposite remember the resource tax? Farmers had to contend with an inflation rate of 20 per cent at that time.

Deputy Farrelly will have an opportunity later to contribute in an orderly fashion.

We rejected the proposal put forward at the Athens Summit and a number of other member states objected to us, or any country, getting any exemption or concession.

(Interruptions.)

Deputies on both sides will have an opportunity to contribute later. They should control themselves.

The proposal at the Athens Summit was the last positive one put forward. We did not accept it and a number of other countries vehemently opposed getting it. All agricultural matters, including the milk super-levy, are being discussed at the Council of Ministers of Agriculture. Deputy O'Keeffe and others referred to changes in intervention payments. I should like to point out that the Commission decided to increase the minimum period in which payment could be made from 60 to 120 days. This is a matter for the Commission to decide following consultation with the management committee. We opposed it strongly and we were able to delay it for a period.

(Limerick West): The Minister did so with tongue in cheek.

We did not have sufficient support to block that proposal permanently and it came into effect on 27 January. The result of the change was to reduce intervention prices by about 2p per gallon on milk. Secondly, the Commission now propose changes in the quality standards for skim milk powder before it can be sold into intervention. Lower moisture and acidity standards are the main issues involved in this. The proposal would increase the cost of producing skim milk powder or, more importantly, render the bulk of our powder ineligible for intervention. Again, this is a matter for the Commission but we are opposing it vehemently and we have the support of a number of other delegations.

I should like to point out that the Commission are entitled to bring in these proposals without consulting the Council of Ministers. Already the Commission have amended the proposal to make it less objectionable. While this is an improvement it is still not to our liking and we remain opposed to it. I am hopeful that it will be possible to have it further amended to our satisfaction. I read a report in a newspaper last week of a person maintaining that this quality control standard would mean that the price of milk could be reduced by as much as 10p per gallon. That is absolutely untrue. As a result of changes being brought about in these quality control standards at our insistence we are hoping that the reduction in milk prices will be minimal, if anything at all. I should like to eliminate that fear. I have just outlined two examples of the adverse consequences of a failure to reach a satisfactory settlement in the discussions on the super-levy and related problems. I recommend the Bill to the House and I look forward to hearing the views of Members.

(Limerick West): I welcome the Bill which has our support. I note that it is proposed to guarantee the borrowings of An Bord Bainne for a further six years. That is a step in the right direction. An Bord Bainne are an excellent organisation who are working in a difficult area at present. They deserve every support possible and, particularly, a positive approach by the Government and the Minister of Agriculture. I use the word “positive” in connection with pointing the way forward towards targets we want to reach. Unfortunately, the Government have no such plan or way forward, no plan for the future, and ultimately the whole dairying industry, already beset with difficulties created by the EEC, will be faced with many more problems. That is particularly serious when we recognise dairying as the basis of our agricultural economy, particularly beef production.

The largest single task facing An Bord Bainne and the industry generally is the diversification of production so that we will feed a greater share of our milk into products other than butter and skim milk. The future of our dairying depends on the development of new improved products.

Could I have a copy of the Deputy's script?

(Limerick West): I am speaking from notes.

Will the Deputy continue from his notes.

He must be hurting the Minister.

(Limerick West): The future of our dairying depends on the development of new, improved products and satisfactory market outlets for them. I spoke earlier about the need to utilise our embassies and our diplomatic corps to improve our market prospects abroad as an adjunct to the Bord Bainne marketing arm, Córas Tráchtála. Our embassies can play a far greater role in this field.

Improvements and diversification of our dairy produce call for adequate research investment and market testing. The risk of failure is high but we must take that risk if we are to put dairying on a sound footing. We must also have radical approaches to marketing and production. I hope the Department and the Minister will give every possible support to An Bord Bainne to plan for such diversification. As I have said, risks are necessary if the industry is to be developed properly.

Investment is essential. Ireland is far too small for a fragmented approach. Our co-operatives, individually, have not got the required scale of risk capital if we are to make the foreign market inroads we need in the future. It was heartening to see recently An Bord Bainne deciding to set up a national fund for the development of dairying, and I am now calling for full support for that venture from all agencies, State and otherwise. I ask the Minister to help to promote it in every way he can. Indeed I urge the Government to supplement this fund which not alone will help the dairying industry but the entire national economy. First of all, the Department should provide monetary support for the fund, which should be closely co-ordinated.

The fund will not need any large organisation to administer it and I hope it will not involve any foreign consultants. We are very well equipped at home in our excellent food research section in An Foras Talúntais and our equally talented dairy and food faculty in UCC. The fund will also be helped by the competent staffs in our creameries and co-operatives. It can be a success with the collaboration of all these agencies.

The Minister told us that four Ministers of State have been appointed to co-ordinate the work in food processing and marketing. This is acceptable, but the announcement was made first by Deputy Bruton and I was surprised and perplexed that it did not come from the Minister for Agriculture because our main food production experts are based in the Department of Agriculture, and improvement in the end products of dairying cannot be achieved without full attention being paid to the raw materials, and this is the job of the Department of Agriculture. Therefore, I was surprised the Minister for Agriculture did not make that announcement.

I was deeply involved with the Minister for Industry, Trade, Commerce and Tourism in the setting up of that committee.

It will be launched during the week.

(Limerick West): I was a little surprised that the Minister was not more involved. Is the Minister's role at the Cabinet table as effective as it might be?

Definitely.

(Limerick West): What happened in recent times does not lead one to believe that is the case. The contribution to the agricultural sector in the recent budget is a case in point. I ask the Minister to take a greater interest in seeing to it that the whole agricultural industry can move forward rather than render it——

What about the Deputy's monumental blunder?

(Limerick West): I want to be more positive——

That was not positive.

(Interruptions.)

What did the Minister do for farmers in West Cork?

Please allow your colleague to continue unaided.

I would not call that aid.

(Limerick West): The Fine Gael Party proposed that the production unit of account would be the best system of taxation for farmers. Why did the Minister not live up to his commitment? Why did the Government fool the people and completely renege on their policy of taxation?

And on the Programme for Government.

(Limerick West): When Fine Gael came to power they did not implement their proposals.

(Interruptions.)

(Limerick West): We will talk about the land tax when the time comes. When we come to a decision we will live up to it.

Is the Minister speaking to his leader?

I always do.

Back on terms again.

Acting Chairman

Deputy Noonan without interruption, please. I am sure his colleagues have enough confidence in his ability to speak.

What about the comments from the other side?

Acting Chairman

I appeal to Deputies on the Government side to allow the Deputy to speak.

(Limerick West): When I was rudely interrupted by the Minister——

I did not say anything.

That is the Minister's big difficulty. He has not said anything since he became Minister.

(Limerick West): I would like to see the Minister for Foreign Affairs insisting that our diplomatic staff——

I have the budget speech here.

The Deputy has only half of the story.

Acting Chairman

Deputy Noonan is Fianna Fáil spokesman on Agriculture and I ask his colleagues to allow him to put his case.

(Limerick West): The Minister for Foreign Affairs should be asked to lend his expertise to promote the marketing of our main exports, beef and dairying. I concur with the Minister when he said that we compared very badly with other exporting nations. He rightly pointed out that it is only a short time since we had the Prime Minister of New Zealand here promoting his country's dairy products. Here is a vital role for our Ministers for Agriculture and Foreign Affairs and the Taoiseach to play. They could visit the various member states of the EEC and promote our products. I will reply later to the Minister's statement about the common agricultural policy. The Government should have a vigorous approach to marketing and support the many marketing agencies that exist at present. The Government have fallen down on that area.

Four Ministers of State have recently been appointed to co-ordinate the work of the food processing and marketing sectors and I hope this gets off the ground. I commend the Minister of State, Deputy Hegarty, for his positive approach to the potato marketing co-operative which was recently set up. I hope the Minister will get the full support of his colleagues in Government. This is a vital area and I congratulate him on that work.

Do not forget the £1 million.

(Limerick West): Deputy Hegarty is not responsible for that.

I thank Deputy Noonan very much.

(Limerick West): I repeat my full support for An Bord Bainne but they can well do without the kind of statement which the Minister made recently when he said publicly that An Bord Bainne were about to withdraw from the British cheese market.

I did not say that they did.

(Limerick West): The board contradicted that statement and rightly so. The Minister should get his facts right.

My facts are 100 per cent correct.

(Limerick West): Such statements affect the industry.

I suggest that you speak to An Bord Bainne.

(Limerick West): You will have an opportunity to speak and I have no doubt you will reply to that.

Acting Chairman

Please speak through the Chair. The procedures of the House must be obeyed.

(Limerick West): Thankfully the board contradicted this erroneous statement.

It was not erroneous.

(Limerick West): The board have enough difficulties in relation to marketing without the Minister adding to them by making erroneous statements. I would refer the Minister to an article in The Sunday Tribune on Sunday, 5 February 1984, which refers to Bord Bainne and the co-operatives being hit by the section 84 ban. It is another instance of one arm of Government being determined to crush our basic industry. I refer to the Department of Finance. According to the figures in The Sunday Tribune the section 84 ban could have the effect of increasing Bord Bainne's interest charges by between £1,500,000 to £2 million. That is a serious situation. Surely the Department of Finance realise what the problems are and how this ban will affect the entire dairy industry and render it much more difficult for Bord Bainne to continue with our marketing strategy which is so essential at a time when the entire dairy industry is being attacked both from within and without the country. I hope that in replying the Minister will define what the situation is. I heard someone say recently that because of the various levies being introduced by the Government the whole agricultural industry is reaching a hurricane situation.

The Deputy would know all about that.

(Limerick West): The section 84 ban will result in a further half penny per gallon on milk so far as the producer is concerned. In addition, the delay in the intervention payments by the EEC to a period of 120 days will cost the dairying industry in the region of 2p per gallon at a time when the industry has to meet increased production costs, which this year could be anything up to 5p per gallon because of the levies and of the withdrawing of aid by the Government for the promotion of the whole agricultural industry. This means that the yield in respect of each cow will have to be increased by 85 gallons if those extra costs are to be covered. This is the situation that the Government have brought about by their approach to the economy generally and to agriculture in particular by reason of the downgrading of that industry. If the dairying industry is undermined the whole agricultural industry is undermined also because dairying is the basis of the industry. There is the question, too, of the distortions in milk prices brought about by the system of MCAs. This is another area that the Minister has not tackled.

That is totally untrue.

(Limerick West): If the Minister has tackled the problem there is no sign of his having been effective.

That is absolutely incorrect.

(Limerick West): If the Minister were aware of the situation in the agricultural industry he would not have said what he said here last week and again this morning, that is, that he is getting the full support of the farming organisations and of the entire farming sector in what he is doing. If he believes that he is living in cloud cuckooland. I have not met any member of the farming community who is satisfied with the Government's approach to the question of the reform of the CAP especially in terms of the dairying industry. Irrespective of what figures the Minister may quote, 1983 was a bad year for the agricultural industry; but, bad as 1983 has been, 1984 will be the worst in living memory for Irish farmers. We have an uncaring Government, a Government who are not interested in the problems of the industry. One cannot be happy about their approach, especially at EEC level.

If implemented many of the proposals of the Commission on the reform of the CAP would have a disastrous affect, not only for the agricultural sector but for the whole economy. However, we can have a good deal of success in so far as the proposals are concerned but if we are to be successful there must be present the political will on the part of every member of the Government. They must all be prepared to support fully the Minister for Agriculture in his negotiations and to support the Taoiseach when the time comes for him to attend the Paris summit because that is where we hope the decisions will be made. However, the Minister's approach differs at each meeting of the Council. He has no consistent approach with regard to the negotiations. One day he says that the Government support in principle the implementation of a super-levy while on other occasions he says that such a levy is totally unacceptable to us. Our party have made it clear in the past number of months that nothing less than a total exemption for Ireland is acceptable.

Perhaps the Deputy would tell me where I have differed in any of my statements.

(Limerick West): The Minister might allow me finish my contribution.

One can recall, for instance, the Minister on his departure from Dublin Airport on one occasion making the admission that he was defeated.

Acting Chairman

Deputy Noonan, without interruption, please.

I should like the Deputy to tell me in what respect my statements have differed.

(Interruptions.)

Acting Chairman

The Deputy in possession should be allowed to continue without interruption. I ask Deputies to respect the rules of procedure of the House.

What will the Minister do to help the small farmers?

They will not be forgotten while we are in power.

Acting Chairman

I ask Deputies to have manners and courtesy and allow Deputy Noonan to continue.

(Limerick West): These proposals will be far-reaching and will extend over quite a number of products. There is a major disappointment because of the weak way some of these proposals are being put forward, especially those that could make a significant contribution to the budgetary problems. When the Minister was speaking on Second Stage he asked if there were alternative proposals to those already on the table to reduce the budgetary problems of the EEC and also with regard to reform of the CAP. There are many alternative proposals. I want the Minister to promote them, to put them forward to the Council of Ministers and also to ensure that they are put forward at the Paris summit meeting in March. However, I do not think there is the political will to put forward such proposals and to push them. This was done in the past when another Minister from another party held the post of Minister for Agriculture. It is a major disappointment that alternative proposals are not being put forward by the Government and by the Minister. With regard to cereals, there is a rather vague hope of curbing the import of cereal substitutes but the Minister has done nothing about it.

The Deputy has not listened to my speech.

(Limerick West): It is well known that these imports have a double effect on the Community's funds, directly through their impact on the economies of the Ten and indirectly through their influence on the production of milk in certain member states. I should like the Minister to put forward an alternative proposal with regard to this matter and to push it.

In dealing with sheep meat the Commission rather tamely suggests that there should be an examination of the "possibility of negotiation of a reduction in the quantities to be imported." What has the Minister done with regard to imports from third countries? The Commission has shelved the question of imports of butter from New Zealand. I take issue with the Minister on this matter. He said in this House that he would not allow further importation of butter from New Zealand in any circumstances until reforms of the CAP were finalised and until there was a finalisation of the super-levy question. Again, the Minister has gone back on his commitment and he has let the farmers down. On the one hand he said he would not agree to further imports of New Zealand butter but two months later he reneged completely on that question.

That is not true.

(Limerick West): How can we have credibility in Europe? How can the farmers have confidence in the Minister to negotiate on their behalf? Shame on the Minister. The way he has dealt with these matters is a disgrace.

I am disappointed that the suggestion to abolish calf premiums has been part and parcel of the proposals. Fianna Fáil Ministers fought long and hard for the introduction of that premium and ultimately they were successful. Apart from the financial loss, uncertainty and instability of this kind will not allow the farmers to plan efficiently. Our cattle and beef industry needs a boost, not a blow. There have been lay-offs in our beef plants in the recent past and this should be considered. I hope the proposals to retain the suckler cow premium will be agreed.

The proposal that has aroused the strongest resentment is that relating to the super-levy on milk production. That must be resisted at all costs. I will give credit where credit is due. I am glad that at long last the Minister has come around to our way of thinking when he said recently he would be prepared to use the veto or the "Luxembourg Compromise" to ensure that the super-levy will not see the light of day so far as this country is concerned. I am glad the Minister is learning and is taking good example from this side of the House.

On a point of order, I did not use the word "veto".

(Limerick West): At long last I am glad that the words of wisdom from this side of the House have been accepted by the Minister.

I did not say I would use the veto.

The Minister said that on a radio interview and then he changed his mind.

I did not use that expression.

The Minister in a radio interview said he would use the veto but at a Council of Ministers meeting he changed his mind.

(Limerick West): The woolly thinking of the Minister is becoming more apparent all the time. Are we prepared to use the veto where out vital national interests are at stake or are we not? There are other questions I shall be putting to the Minister later, such as the proposals put forward by Greece when they held the Presidency of the EEC. I ask the Minister if they are the proposals from which we start our negotiations. There is no point in talking about proposals in the past that were unacceptable then. My information is that we are starting from the proposals put forward by the Commission based on 1981 output plus 1 per cent. I want the Minister to clarify this matter.

The core of our case must be to demonstrate that the levy would impose an unduly severe and unjust penalty on this country. The Minister said the dairy industry is of far greater importance to our economy than it is to any other member state. This must be pointed out at meetings of the Council of Ministers and at Commission level, but I doubt if this is being effectively pointed out by this Government, because this point did not come across loudly and clearly at the meeting of the Council of Ministers held earlier this week. There is hostility to our proposals.

It is sad to realise that our vital national interests are not being considered by the Commission. One might even go so far as to say that their proposals are contrary to the spirit and rules of the Treaty of Rome where our national vital interests are at stake. Yet, the Minister has a wishy-washy approach, he has woolly and muddled thinking and he changes his stance from one Council meeting to the other. There is no way we can make progress if we adopt that approach.

Our cattle industry is heavily dependent on calves from the dairy herd and the fall in dairy cow numbers, which would inevitably result from a penal levy, would hit our beef trade very hard. This country produces only 4½ per cent of the Community's milk supplies. Our dairy farmers get a price for their milk which is far below European standards. Is this fact realised? We are not creating a butter or skim milk powder mountain. The milk factories in Denmark, Holland and Germany are causing the real problems. What effect will the proposed super-levy have on their enterprises? Will it have the desired effect? I say no, because those countries have reached their maximum output. The proposals now being put forward by the Commission will not solve the real problems of a glut of dairy products in the EEC. Our approach is wrong and we must have alternatives and be prepared to push them. Are we determined to push these alternatives? The benefits which have accrued to Ireland since 1973 will be null and void if we are not prepared to push our case for fear it offends one member state or another.

Countries like Denmark, Holland and Germany largely base their milk production on the heavy feeding of cows with concentrate feedstuffs. These feedstuffs are mainly cereal substitutes imported free of duty from outside the Community. This area should be tackled if we are interested in protecting the small, weaker nations of the Community. The quantities per cow are large so as to force very high milk yields. There is nothing wrong with that but these are the areas which should be taxed and that the Commission should be looking at to relieve the problem of over-supply and surpluses.

The quantities of these imports have trebled over the past decade. MCAs result from an artifically high price for the milk available to farmers in Germany and other countries, the Netherlands in particular. This area too should be tackled but it is not being tackled by the present EEC proposals by the imposition of a super-levy. This will affect a country like Ireland which is a small producer — producing only 4½ per cent of the total EEC dairy products — to the tune of 10 per cent. Let us tackle the real problems in the member states.

The super-levy proposals would unfairly penalise the smaller, weaker and less well off Irish industries because of the problems created directly by larger, stronger and better off European industries. The gallonage of milk per cow produced in the milk factories is already very high and their financial returns are so great that the financial losses resulting from the levy would be much lighter than for the Irish supplier. From the word go the situation is not, and cannot, be acceptable to this country. We must be completely exempt from all such measures. Here the real negotiating muscle of our Minister, if he has any, should be extended fully. As I said, those proposals are contrary to the spirit of the Treaty of Rome. There is still time, provided the political will is there, to influence these proposals. This Government will have the full support of this party if the proper approach is adopted.

There is no point criticising unless one suggests alternatives. The Minister specifically asked for alternatives earlier today and I am putting forward some suggestions which would benefit this country and reduce surpluses in the EEC. First, we should veto any further imports of butter from New Zealand. That contract came up for renewal last year, but what did the Minister do? He reneged on his original commitment. We should seek the elimination of all MCAs because they give an unfair advantage to several member states at the expense of the Community. I have already explained fully how this can be done. That is another alternative — seek a ban on cheap feeding-stuffs from third countries; call on the commission to impose a levy on milk factories in Europe. I know that is included in the proposals but I doubt that it is sufficiently strong to have the desired effect. It is in that area the problems arise. I want to reiterate the importance of diplomatic relations and contacts with the other member states. These can be established through our embassies, by the Taoiseach visiting other member states, so that we emphasise to our partners the importance of the dairying industry to this country, far more important to us than any other member state. I want the Minister to state unequivocally that, if necessary, we will use the veto against these proposals because their effect would be so serious.

There are alternatives to be examined as against those put forward by the Commission. I hope the Minister will apprise himself of these alternatives. Our position must be clearly and unequivocally stated, that the super-levy on milk production will not be accepted by us in any circumstances.

I should like to support An Bord Bainne and the work they are doing. At present there are threats in the market place. For example, the returns from our cheese market are not as great as they had been; one-sixth of all our milk is processed into cheese products. This is where An Bord Bainne can usefully establish this fund, which I hope will be supported by the Minister, in order that they may diversify their activities into other areas of production. The variation in milk prices from one member state to another is quite significant. This is another area the Council of Ministers and the Commission should tackle. For instance, because of the MCAs about which I spoke earlier, the German producer receives something in the region of 10p per gallon over and above the price we receive for our milk, giving them a tremendous advantage which surely is not fair to us.

I hope the provisions of this Bill will have the desired effect, ensuring that An Bord Bainne are placed on a sound footing because they have the necessary expertise. In this respect I hope we can move forward in marketing and on the further diversification of our dairy products. One might well ask why it took An Bord Bainne until now to decide on the diversification of such products. But better late than never and the work they are doing is most acceptable. We must utilise fully all the expertise available to us.

I want to take up a few points made by the Minister in his introductory remarks. He spoke about intervention. I said this would cause a delay in intervention payments of 2p per gallon to our dairy farmers. Bad example was given to the EEC, by the Minister when this Government delayed those payments for up to 90 days. Again, bad example was given when the Minister and his Government suspended the farm modernisation scheme, continuing their downgrading of our agricultural industry. The Minister's negotiating power at EEC level must have been reduced substantially because of this approach, his muscle at the negotiating table must have been considerably reduced, as also his and our credibility as a nation. On the one hand the Minister is reducing the support here for our farmers and, on the other hand, he goes to the Council of Ministers seeking aid and support. If the Minister is not prepared to do it at home he cannot depend on the EEC to do it for him.

I want the Minister to state clearly whether the Greek proposals form the base from which we shall now commence. Are those proposals still on the table? It must be remembered that the large European producers will not necessarily be affected by this super-levy because it will not have the effect on them the Commission thinks. Already they have reached such a high level of production any imposition will not now reduce their milk production levels. Therefore, the super-levy does not necessarily constitute the best solution. There are many alternatives and other areas to be examined which I have outlined.

There is another area warranting examination when we talk about the provisions of this Bill and Bord Bainne. We should examine the possibility of increasing the sales of our milk on the home market, an area which should be promoted by Bord Bainne. I suppose the National Dairy Council are the appropriate body to initiate such promotion. I know they are launching a campaign next week to encourage greater consumption of milk in our pubs, bars and lounge bars——

That is our idea. It took them a long time to get it off the ground, did it not?

(Limerick West): Provided, of course, that the Minister for Finance does not tax that pint as well. There is always the danger that, if this was thought to be lucrative, the Minister for Finance would tax it. Such a campaign would be an effective way of increasing consumption and the disposal of our dairy products on the home market. It would have the additional benefit of increasing employment in this industry. We must utilise our natural resources and there is no better way of doing that than by promoting the sale of milk on the home market. I am sure that the National Dairy Council will have the full support of all the agencies in their task of increasing the sale of milk in lounge bars, public houses and throughout the length and breadth of the country. The Department should also have a greater commitment to the school milk scheme, as well as being concerned with the export market and seeking further markets.

When the Bill came before the House some years ago, the guarantee on borrowings was £90 million and I hope that that will be sufficient to meet the needs of Bord Bainne over the period ending 31 December 1989, a period of six years. The Government may be downgrading the agricultural industry in not increasing that amount, but I hope that this is not so and that the £90 million will be ample. I understand that the board have extended the range of their borrowings and rightly so and that some minor details are being cleared up.

I want to emphasise the importance of our dairy industry and commend the role being played by An Bord Bainne who hopefully will have the support, financial and moral, of the Minister and the Department of Agriculture.

While one could argue with some of the comments made by the Opposition spokesman on agriculture, apart from the odd swipe here and there, basically the same message comes from both sides of the House. That is important, in view of the seriousness of the problem in the context of what our papers publish. These are read in Bonn, Brussels and elsewhere and we should have this type of obvious cohesion within the House. One might argue that we are not strong enough on one approach and should be emphasising certain aspects, but the message is loud and clear from both sides of the House in support of the Government's stand on the superlevy.

The Government accept that there is a serious financial crisis within the EEC but it is true to say, as the Minister and Deputy Noonan have said, that we have not contributed to that problem, so we should not be asked to contribute to its solution. Our case is clear and unequivocal and we are all adopting the same stance on this.

I also agree with the Opposition spokesman on the case to be made for diversification and our record in some areas is quite spectacular. I would just mention cream liqueurs with which we have now taken over the world market, frozen foods, yoghurt and now soft cheeses from our co-operatives and fat-free products.

A recent campaign was waged against our milk concerning its purity. As a Government and a Parliament, we have responsibility to point out that the milk is a pure, safe product and nothing but good can be gained from drinking plenty of it. All the talk about antibiotics and so forth has been very damaging to milk sales.

Before that, there was a campaign against butter. One would think that by eating a little butter at breakfast or teatime one was automatically endangering one's health and inviting all sorts of cardiac problems. The latest American scientific evidence has proved these fears to be totally without foundation and that there are absolutely no benefits to be gained from using any other type of fat as against ordinary butter. Our forebears proved that, by living to old age on a diet of which butter was a staple item.

Deputy Noonan referred to co-ordination of our food industries. We have had one meeting so far on this subject and the format would be to try to co-ordinate what is happening in fisheries, agriculture, industry and trade, to ensure that all Departments would be working towards a cohesive food policy without duplication. We must see that the frighteningly large expenditure in the budget on our food industry is used to the best advantage, without duplication in marketing or research. There are many problems relating to more than one Department. For instance, there is at the moment a bread subsidy, but that benefits imported flour. The Department of Agriculture think that subsidy should rather relate to Irish wheat. We are told by another Department that there might not be enough money to go around to give an adequate subsidy. These difficulties must be ironed out to ensure that, in the context of very high food imports, the Irish housewife will have a continuous supply, in so far as the season allows, of Irish produce at the right price. Our efforts with regard to exports must be cohesive and to our best advantage.

I welcome this Bill and give it unqualified support in its passage through the House. The legislation we are discussing today is important to Bord Bainne for a number of reasons. These have already been referred to by the Minister in his introduction speech and there is no need to reiterate them. However, there is one aspect of the Bill which I would like to stress and that is that it represents a formal vote of confidence by the Government in the Irish dairy industry as a whole. The main function of the Bill is to extend the duration of the State guarantee given to An Bord Bainne for a further six years. This guarantee has existed since the setting up of An Bord Bainne as a privately owned co-operative society. Prior to that it had been a State-sponsored body, the continued existence of which was incompatible with our EEC membership. Now more than ever this vote of confidence is needed and I have no doubt that it will be forthcoming.

Bord Bainne is a household name today in Ireland in urban as well as rural areas. The reasons for this are quite obvious. As a nation heavily dependent upon agriculture and more particularly on the dairying industry for the creation of wealth, we are all very much aware that when Bord Bainne are doing well, the benefits are shared by all of us. As the centralised marketing outlets for Irish dairy products, Bord Bainne's performance serves as a barometer for the national dairy industry as a whole. The readings on this barometer have to date been impressive. Because we are a net exporter of dairy products, the future of our industry depends on our ability to maintain and to strengthen our hold on the available world market.

We must realise the importance of the home market, as mentioned by the Minister and reiterated by Deputy Noonan. A vigorous campaign to promote Irish dairy products is very welcome and I do not think we should make any apologies for a deliberate promotion of our products. We hear a lot about buying Irish; the emphasis should be rather to sell Irish as the British are doing at present with their highly successful Food From Britain campaign. Some of our cheeses are superior to those of France and Denmark but because they have such a good name we tend to have a hang-up about our products.

The State guarantee as provided to An Bord Bainne helps them to carry out their task as the centralised exporter of Irish dairy produce. It helps in a very concrete way by enabling the board bear the very high borrowings necessary to purchase their stock each year, as it is produced mainly during the April-September months, at the same time enabling them to bear the financial costs involved in marketing it evenly throughout the year. The seasonal nature of Irish milk production places great financial strain on the marketing side of the industry and the guarantee given to Bord Bainne helps to bear this strain.

The dairying industry is today going through an extremely difficult period. This applies to the industry both inside and outside the EEC. We in Ireland, because of our very high dependence on the dairying industry, are more conscious than most of these difficulties. We stand to lose at both ends of the industry — at the production end we would lose substantially if quota based cut-backs and levies were to be applied and at the marketing end if world market outlets continue to contract. The Government and their Ministers are making every effort at EEC level to ensure that Ireland's dairy industry is allowed to reach its full potential within the terms of the Common Agricultural Policy. There is need for a certain balance to be restored to the dairy section of the community market. This is obvious to everybody. However, we must continue to impress upon our Community partners that this balance cannot be achieved at the expense of Ireland, for whom dairying represents 9 per cent of GNP, provides employment for over 75,000 people and accounted for exports valued at over £725 million last year alone.

While at EEC level the battle continues we can today on the home front do something very constructive to help our dairy industry. The continuation of the State Guarantee to An Bord Bainne will contribute to the ongoing successful marketing of our dairy produce on the world market and will at the same time do a great deal to help the industry through this difficult period. I would, therefore, like to end by once again welcoming this Bill and by urging my fellow Deputies to give it their full support.

I have agreed with my colleagues that everyone should have an opportunity to speak on this debate and accordingly I have curtailed my time. I thank the Opposition spokesman for his kind words about the potato co-operative. In that connection legislation is ready and I will discuss it with Deputies over the next few weeks.

I welcome the opportunity of contributing to this debate and supporting the extension of the guarantee to Bord Bainne for another six years. We have already had a discussion on the pig industry and the Minister said there was a crisis there. There is also a crisis in the dairy industry; and the problem basically is that we have 1,000 million gallons of milk for manufacture each year which is difficult to utilise. Our response to the problem has been almost totally negative. We have reacted by converting a higher percentage of that milk into traditional products that nobody wants. We are manufacturing more butter now than before we joined the EEC and, despite what the Minister of State said about the nutritional value of butter and so on, the public perception of butter is that it is not good for you. Sales are declining, which support that view. The Irish dairy industry should not be converting a greater percentage into butter. Over 80 per cent of milk delivered to creameries is converted into butter. Bord Bainne are expected to find outlets for this product. Inevitably it goes into intervention and the problem is left for somebody else to solve. Unfortunately, it is becoming insoluble.

The other main product as an adjunct of butter is skim milk powder and that also is a product nobody wants. It is a commodity product, there are about a million tonnes in intervention and the management committee of the Community have great difficulty trying to get rid of it. However, it uses a large volume of milk and, as such, is attractive to the dairy industry. It solves many problems for them. They do not have to worry too much about marketing, for instance.

I am glad that Bord Bainne have initiated a campaign to set up a fund which should bring in about £5 million per annum to foster research and development, especially market and consumer research. If we have 1,000 million gallons of milk to process, surely we should find out what the consumers want? When we have established that, we should sell it in a positive fashion. There is no use in screaming for protection, although I know we need some. I support the Luxembourg compromise or veto, whatever you like to call it, to defend the Irish position against the super-levy.

It is insulting to Irish farmers, the dairy industry and those who market it to realise that £40 million of dairy products are imported every year. Our market is written off as being too small, but we could do a lot more in that area. For example, we took up the school milk programme recently but even then it was in a halfhearted fashion. No co-operation was sought with the school authorities or the Department of Education, and unfortunately, it is now a lame duck operation.

We have a number of outstanding examples where individual dairies and individual processors looked beyond the farm gate and beyond intervention, did their market research and development and found very remunerative products. The Minister of State mentioned cream liqueurs. In Ballineen in west Cork we have a dairy, Carbery Milk Products, who are an example and a showpiece not only to Ireland but to the entire dairy world. I was glad, as I am sure everybody else was, a few months ago to read in the newspapers that Carbery Milk Products in association with a number of other firms in Cork had landed a very valuable contract in the United States of America to sell new technology for the development of dairy products and to provide the factory and the facilities as well. If we are world leaders in that area, why can we not transfer that expertise to the whole national scene?

In another part of Cork, in Imokilly, we have the production of Italian-type cheeses and about £5 million worth was exported last year to the Middle East. In Waterford we have the franchise arrangement with Yoplait Yogurt. More recently the Town of Monaghan Co-Op have had the franchise arrangement producing Móna new products. They are the kind of developments we need, rather than taking the cowardly attitude and looking for all sorts of protection. If we continue in a positive fashion and if support is given to An Bord Bainne for a development fund, we can utilise the increased production which we hope we will have over the next few years and also convert a larger and larger share of the 1,000 million gallons of milk available for processing into high added-value products.

We have a number of constraints. In a recent Bord Bainne publication they emphasised the problem of seasonality of production. That is no constraint at all. I am surprised that Bord Bainne should use that old excuse for problems in the industry. Over the past two years there was a fantastic increase in sales of cream liqueurs. One of the major exporters of cream liqueurs, Virginia Milk Products, went as far as west Cork looking for milk to supply that industry in the winter time. They offered a premium for the production of winter milk. The response was outstanding and they were offered much more than they required. Unfortunately, due to the contraction of sales in recent times, the farming community have to use other outlets.

There was no constraint on production. The farming community have demonstrated over and over again that, if they are paid for their products, they will produce them. To talk about a 16:1 ratio of winter milk production as against a summer peak production as an excuse is negative. I should like encouragement for a reduction of this peak to be given because of the problems it creates in the winter time with staff being let off and valuable equipment lying idle, the difficulty of making certain products at particular times of the year, late lactation milk and early lactation milk causing chemical problems and making it almost impossible to make some sophisticated products. I encourage Bord Bainne at least to look for an extension at both ends of the season, earlier calving and a continuation at the back end of the season as well.

It is estimated that about 25 per cent of the cows in Ireland calve after 1 April. If that date could be brought forward to 1 February it would increase the amount of milk available by about 60 million gallons. That additional milk would be available for processing and we could make better use of the facilities, equipment and personnel in the whole industry.

The importance of the dairy industry to the whole economy is much more than just the processing end of it, because it has a regional significance. People are employed directly in factories and creameries, but every supplier benefits from the industry as well. In particular in rural areas it has a very valuable spin-off effect.

If I might refer again to west Cork, in the last two censuses of population the most outlying peninsular areas, including the area from which my friend Deputy Sheehan comes, have shown an increase in population. Part of the reason for that is the outstanding contribution which Carbery Milk Products in particular are making to the economy not only of the area where the factory is located but the entire dairy farming community in the whole of west Cork.

A number of other aspects of the dairy industry are used as excuses for our poor performance. One is the low solids content of milk. In a recent IFA survey one might be excused for believing that the method of testing was responsible for our apparently low solids content of milk. It is factual to say that the solids content of Irish milk is less than the Danish or Netherlands supply, mainly because we are not breeding for higher solids milk, or we are not testing or paying for milk supplied to creameries for anything other than butter fat.

I am glad to note that a number of our more progressive co-ops are tending to pay for milk not only on a butter fat basis but also on protein and lactose. I would not like to see a development which at least one major co-op are suggesting, that is, payment for milk on a volume basis. That would be a very dangerous development for the dairy industry. As everybody knows, milk contains 87 per cent water and you are only interested in the 12.5 or 13 per cent solids. If you are not testing or paying for those solids, how can you have breeding programmes and how can you encourage people to have a better quality and higher constituents of milk? With energy costs so high, the higher the solids content the less will be the energy costs for producing a ton of butter, or a ton of powder, or whatever else.

Also, the Irish farmer receives about 85 per cent of the target price as against a much higher percentage in some of the more advanced dairy industries because of our low product conversion ratio.

Another disappointing aspect of the industry is the poor uptake of product development grants made available by the IDA. Several million pounds have been spent in the industry on the provision of new buildings and machinery in recent years. The amount of money and the number of grants taken up for product development have been negligible. That is a tragedy. Possibly the IDA are to blame to some extent. Up to very recently they had no great concern for the food industry. They had no section dealing with the food industry. In the past 12 months they have restaffed and strengthened that section of the IDA. I hope that in future they will have personnel and especially food technologists, not only in Dublin but throughout the country and particularly in Munster. There are some outstanding co-ops in the Munster area with the IDA headquarters in the South Mall in Cork. The minimum they would need is a section dealing with the food industry.

Debate adjourned.
Sitting suspended at 1.30 p.m. and resumed at 2.30 p.m.
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