It is proposed to take business in the following order: Nos. 7, 8 and 9. Private Members' Business will be No. 52.
Order of Business.
I should like to ask the Tánaiste if he would be prepared to make Government time available for a major debate on the matter of the placing of concealed listening equipment in a house in which the Deputy Leader of the SDLP stays in Dublin in view of the serious and far-reaching implications of this matter? Will the Government be prepared to give Government time for a full debate on this matter?
This does not arise on the Order of Business and I suggest that it might be taken up between the Whips, or some other way.
The Whips can make the arrangements for the debate but I want to ask the Tánaiste if, in principle, he is prepared to agree to give Government time for a debate on this very serious matter.
That does not arise on the Order of Business. If Deputy Haughey wishes to put a supplementary to his Private Notice Question, I will not rule it out.
Surely we are now ordering our business? There is no matter which is obtruding more on the public mind at this time than this and I suggest that it is something for which the Government should give time. I want to ask the Tánaiste specifically, through the Chair, if the Government will give time.
My difficulty is that I am concerned with precedent. There is no Member more alert about precedent than Deputy Haughey. If I allow this question to be put, tomorrow, the day after and every other day I will have questions asking if the Government will give time for this that and the other and, if the Government do not give time, why not. That would make the running of the House impossible. I gather that the Tánaiste is prepared to answer but I am ruling that out of order.
I see that the Tánaiste is prepared to answer.
I do not want it answered. The Chair is doing his best to establish orderly precedent and, by and large, he feels he is succeeding. Deputy Haughey will have another opportunity later today to put this question. I am calling the first item.
The Chair knows as well as I that the House can do anything it wishes by agreement. I want to put it to the Chair that, as the Tánaiste is prepared to answer, the Chair should put it to the House that we agree to give the Tánaiste permission to answer.
The House can do anything it likes by agreement within Standing Orders and if the Chair puts it to the House.
I am asking the Chair to put it to the House.
I will not put it to the House.
I have no alternative but to challenge the Order of Business.
There is no such procedure about challenging the Order of Business.
The Chair is asking us that the Order of Business be accepted——
I do not have to; we are not in the Seanad now. It will become impossible to run the House if Deputies do not familiarise themselves with the ordinary Standing Orders. The Government announce the Order of Business and they do not have to get the agreement of anybody.
Deputy Fitzgerald need not be saying "oh" at all because this is in accordance with Standing Orders.
I will suitably chastise Deputy Fitzgerald for oh-ing.
If the Deputy does he will become a very busy man.
I suggest that we are getting into the realm of fantasy here. I want the Tánaiste to answer my question. The Tánaiste is anxious to answer it and the whole House would like to know the answer.
We have patience.
There are a lot of things we want to know.
We are asking the Chair to permit the Tánaiste, by agreement.
I have to follow the procedures and order of the House. I am sorry, but I believe I am acting in a reasonable way. Deputy Haughey's Private Notice Question will be taken at 5.30 p.m. and that will give him an opportunity of raising this matter, if he wishes to raise it.
Will the Chair accept a proposal that the House do not accept the Order of Business as put before it by the Tánaiste?
No. There is no such procedure. The House do not have to accept it. The Government announce the Order of Business. I am calling Item No. 7.
The Chair is making a joke of the affairs of the House.
I should like to know why the Chair disallowed a question of mine to the Minister for Health asking him to take some action in view of the seriously escalating situation arising from the withdrawal of medical cards.
There is another procedure, which is that we do not discuss decisions of the Chair in the House. I sent a message to the Deputy about that and if he is not satisfied with the information he got and if he pays a visit to my office I will discuss the matter with him.
The message I got was that it was repetitive, but in view of the fact that more students have been imprisoned since last week I cannot understand how the question is repetitive. I am asking the Chair to allow the question to prevent the position deteriorating further.
I have ruled on the matter and, if the Deputy wishes to discuss it in my office, he may.
At the risk of——
Deputy Fitzgerald is a gentleman. On the Order of Business, I would like to ask the Tánaiste, in the absence of the Taoiseach, if he will directly intervene in the current state of administration which has led to the jailing of so many students, and the potential jailing of so many others?
That does not arise on the Order of Business.
At the risk of incurring imprisonment for standing up here, may I ask the Chair how we as a party can try to raise the issue of the serious situation in all our colleges because seven students are imprisoned——
That does not arise on the Order of Business.
——and medical cards have been withdrawn and we are striving in this House to raise this matter——
I made a very generous offer to Deputy Fitzgerald. I said I would give him a copy of Standing Orders, but he did not avail of my offer.
That is not a lot of help to the students who are in prison.
May I raise on the Adjournment the severe sheep losses in the Galtee mountains?
I will communicate with the Deputy.
I wish to raise on the Adjournment the future staffing position of the examinations branch in the Department of Education in Athlone in the light of the recently established Curriculum and Examinations Board. May I ask the Tánaiste to intervene directly in this students dispute?
The Chair will communicate with the Deputy.
On the programme of legislation, I see from one of the newspapers today that the Government propose to bring in legislation to deal with the situation of substitutes or alternates for the European Parliament. It is ironic that such legislation should be brought forward by a Labour Party Minister, but could the Tánaiste tell us when this legislation is likely to come before us and, in particular, in view of the imminence of various conventions for selection for the European Parliament, could he indicate broadly in principle what is intended in this connection?
You cannot discuss legislation.
In view of the wealth of experience gained by the Labour Party in the European Parliament. I do not see any irony whatever.
(Interruptions.)
When the music stops.
I find it surprising that Deputy Haughey seems to know nothing about this legislation because I can recall discussing it with him.
The Tánaiste has completely disarmed us.
An old Kerry trick. I can assure Deputy Haughey that we will bring forward the legislation as quickly as possible. I realise all the parties want clarification but the Deputy is well aware that the intention is that the substitute list will be available to the electorate before they cast their votes on polling day.
Item No. 7.
I am not debating this, but this is a very important matter and is of current topical interest. Conventions will be held and we know from the vast exposure they got on RTE that The Workers' Party have held their conventions and I want to congratulate Deputy Mac Giolla on his splendid appearance on the RTE News last Sunday. As the Tánaiste has indicated that legislation will be brought forward, I presume the Government have already taken decisions in principle on this matter. Could he enlighten us briefly what is in mind?
That is a separate——
In the Green Isle Hotel next Sunday the massive Fianna Fáil organisation will be holding a constituency convention for Leinster followed by another convention on Monday for Dublin. Those delegates would need to know, are entitled to know, what is in mind as regards substitutes.
We cannot have a debate on legislation.
(Interruptions.)
Should we close the doors and go home?
We cannot anticipate legislation, as Deputies know. Item No. 7.
I must put pressure on this. I am a very subservient, patient man as you know, but I must press you with this. I am only seeking information. The Tánaiste is on his feet.
A Cheann Comhairle——
I will not allow any Deputy to drive a coach and four through Standing Orders.
By way of being of assistance to Deputy Haughey and his colleagues I can arrange for either Deputy Haughey or his Whip to get a full briefing on the proposals envisaged by the Government, this afternoon if possible.
Very good.
On the Order of Business, I wish to remind the Chair that in his absence last week the Leas-Cheann Comhairle ordained that in respect of the Order of Business which had been agreed, because there was agreement on either side, the actual order could be changed. When he was on this side of the House the Ceann Comhairle insisted that the Chair should be at one about everything. Are you suggesting now that even though there is agreement, the Chair will only accept it when it suits him?
I will not discuss the Chair's ruling with Deputy Tunney or anybody else. Item No. 7.
(Interruptions.)
If conscience doth make a coward of the Chair, I will accept your ruling.
I am asking Deputy Tunney to withdraw his remark.
Deputy Tunney has never been disorderly. He has made the comment based on the facts which he has already provided to the House.
Order.
What would I withdraw?
(Interruptions.)
A Cheann Comhairle, can you not see the funny side of this? This would be the first time Shakespeare was withdrawn in this House.
I never regard Deputy Tunney as funny. Is Deputy Tunney withdrawing that remark?
I am entitled to ask the Chair when he wants Deputy Tunney to withdraw, and why.
First, the Chair cannot discuss the Leas-Cheann Comhairle's ruling. Deputy Tunney implied that I was being dishonest in my application of the rules and I want him to withdraw that remark.
If the Chair will bear with me. I can produce a record of this House where the Ceann Comhairle, while sitting on these benches, insisted that the Leas-Cheann Comhairle was obliged to follow the ruling of the Ceann Comhairle. Deputy Tunney will not withdraw what is in the Official Report. I did not say the Chair was dishonest.
I am asking Deputy Tunney is a formal manner to withdraw the remark referring to conscience making a coward of the Chair.
Would the Chair repeat in full——
If the Chair has assumed that my reference was not based on precedent or tradition and if the Chair interprets my remark as reflecting on the Chair, then Deputy Tunney will withdraw the quotation.
Deputy Tunney will withdraw his remark without qualification or leave the House.
(Interruptions.)
I am asking Deputy Tunney to withdraw the remark or leave the House.
The Chair invited Deputy Tunney to comment on what he said. Deputy Tunney has commented and said, as has already been said on several occasions in this House, that if the Chair interpreted what I said as a reflection on him, then Deputy Tunney has withdrawn the remark and Deputy Tunney is not going to withdraw any further.
What did the Deputy say?
You should have been listening. If you are not listening you cannot reach a decision.
On a point of order: I do not think anyone need lose any dignity about this matter. Deputy Tunney quite inadvertently used a quotation from Shakespeare. The full quotation is —"thus conscience doth make cowards of us all". I think it was in that context that Deputy Tunney was putting this forward. I assure you, Sir, — and I know Deputy Tunney and yourself — he was not inferring any dishonesty in regard to the Chair. I would ask you to accept a withdrawal in that light.
I cannot accept a sponsor. I am asking Deputy Tunney to withdraw, full stop.
Finally I would address the Chair and say that the Chair will accept that, in what Deputy Tunney said, he referred to the Chair as consisting of the Leas-Cheann Comhairle and the Ceann Comhairle. The Chair will accept that. As far as I am concerned the quotation was an apt quotation in respect of the Chair consisting of those two components.
You leave me no option, Deputy Tunney — I do not want to have to do it — but I would ask you to please withdraw the remark.
Deputy Tunney is happy to withdraw.
(Deputy Tunney withdrew from the Chamber).
Deputy Tunney is leaving the House now for the day.
Off to Europe with you.
An bhfuil rialaithe amháin le haghaidh an Leas-Cheann Comhairle agus rialaithe eile le haghaidh an Cheann Comhairle?
Níl mé ag rá rud ar bith mar sin.
(Cur isteach.)
I am calling Item No. 7. Deputy Briscoe is in possession.
I did not get an answer.