It is proposed to take Items Nos. 2,4 and 8.
Order of Business.
A Cheann Comhairle, I have indicated to you my intention to raise under Standing Order 30 the general question of the placing of listening devices in a private house in Del Val Avenue, Kilbarrack, and the failure of the Government and the Minister for Justice to provide a satisfactory debate in Dáil Éireann in regard to the circumstances in which the placing of these devices took place and the identity of the person or persons responsible. I want to have the House adjourned under Standing Order 30 to discuss this matter.
Deputy Haughey last evening conveyed to me his intention to seek permission to move the Adjournment of the House under Standing Order 30 to raise a matter in connection with the alleged bugging at Kilbarrack. He conveyed to me this morning more detail of the matter which he seeks to raise as he has read out. I have considered the matter carefully, I have considered the Standing Order carefully, I have considered the matter which Deputy Haughey proposed to raise in conjunction with the history of it since last Tuesday, and I have been forced to the conclusion that the Adjournment which Deputy Haughey proposes to raise is not one contemplated by Standing Order 30. Accordingly I refuse permission to move the Adjournment.
I find that ruling extraordinary, and I must say it is unacceptable. I am sorry to have to challenge your ruling, but I do so with a full sense of responsibility.
I say to Deputy Haughey that he cannot challenge. He may disagree with the ruling.
I am totally satisfied that my proposal is exactly within the confines of Standing Order 30. I have gone through all the necessary procedures and I would be grateful if you would give some explanation for this inexplicable decision on your part.
I am equally satisfied that my interpretation of the Standing Order in reference to this case is the proper, correct interpretation. I concede that somebody else is entitled to have a different interpretation and only one of us can be right. I was given this same motion on the same basis on Tuesday last and that motion was withdrawn on Tuesday last. I allowed a Private Notice Question on the very same topic on Tuesday last and this Private Notice Question was pursued by Deputy Haughey, as he is perfectly entitled to do. I am not making any virtue of that.
There is no question of concessions.
(Interruptions.)
The Chair should not be interrupted. That was pursued on Tuesday last for 35 minutes without any intervention. Yesterday or the day before——
(Interruptions.)
Is the official Government lout going to intervene again this morning?
I was asked for an explanation and I will not be allowed to give it. Here yesterday or the day before a motion on this topic was tabled by the Chief Whip of the Fianna Fáil Party and Deputy Haughey, if he wishes to take it up, will have three hours beginning next Tuesday, and his party have control at present of Private Members' Time. I have considered the matter carefully and conscientiously. I have given my decision and that is that.
It is very important that in this instance you should protect yourself from any suggestion that you are protecting the Government or contributing to an attempt to cover up this very serious matter.
I am sorry, I cannot allow——
I am also sorry.
I will not let Deputy Haughey pursue it or proceed on those lines.
I want to submit——
(Interruptions.)
Since my question on Tuesday there have been a number of matters of relevance. First of all——
(Interruptions.)
I will not allow a debate on the matter.
I was making a submission and at least I am allowed to do that. We are denied Government time for a very important motion, and now you are purporting to rule under Standing Order 30 that this matter is out of order. I think your decision is unjustifiable and unprecedented. Since I put down my question here on Tuesday — and I accept it was answered at some length — there have been developments. The equipment concerned was put on display yesterday. A number of questions arise out of that. Furthermore, it has now emerged that a statement made by the Taoiseach to this House in the course of his answer to my question was incorrect on an important matter, and that he telephoned the "Today Tonight" programme——
If Deputy Haughey wants to make a charge against the Taoiseach, against any member of the Government or against any individual he should do it by way of substantive motion.
I am suggesting to you that since I put down my question several important matters have emerged which justify my raising this matter now totally and completely in accordance with Standing Order 30. This equipment was put on display yesterday and there has been a development in regard to the answer given by the Taoiseach in the House.
The request I have before me is the one read out by Deputy Haughey.
The Chair has said that it is not in accordance with Standing Orders, and I should like him to indicate what element of Standing Orders it does not comply with.
Standing Order 30 requires more than ordinary urgency and I do not see more than ordinary urgency here because the motion was tabled on Tuesday, was withdrawn later, was pursued for 35 minutes by way of Private Notice Question and there is a motion on the Order Paper which will be debated on Tuesday.
The Chair has said that Standing Order 30 requires more than ordinary urgency. There is nothing in Standing Order 30 which speaks of more than ordinary urgency. Standing Order 30 is specific. It talks about the purpose of discussing a specific and important matter of public interest requiring urgent consideration. There is not anything there that says anything about more than ordinary urgency.
I should like to refer the Deputy to the report on Dáil procedure presided over by Deputy O'Malley which reported in depth on this matter.
I am quoting Standing Order 30 as it is before me and there is nothing in that about more than ordinary urgency.
Urgency is mentioned in it.
I submit to the Chair that he is being grossly unfair to the Opposition in this ruling.
If Deputy Haughey refers to the O'Malley report he will find——
I am not referring to any report; I am quoting Standing Order 30.
That report deals with this very subject and talks about something which arises suddenly.
What we are dealing with here is a procedure clearly contemplated under Standing Orders for dealing with exactly this sort of situation, and I cannot in any way see how the Chair's ruling could be justified. I am forced to the conclusion that the Chair is giving this ruling for some reason unconnected with the merits of the issue.
I am following the rules of my predecessors, who followed the O'Malley report.
Deputy Cluskey rose.
The decoy.
If I am the decoy the Deputy is the sitting duck.
The Chair has in my view very unfairly prevented the Opposition from discharging their duty on this important matter in a way fully and completely contemplated by Standing Orders and I ask the Chair how can this very important matter be brought on the floor of the House and some explanation received from the Minister for Justice, who has been remarkably quiet on this whole matter up to now?
My answer to that is that the Deputy will have three hours next week. I am calling on Deputy Cluskey.
The Opposition's spokesman on Justice is not here today.
We have already indicated that we will take it as a Private Members' Motion next week, but I am asking how this matter can be taken in the House today because it is urgent today.
That is not a matter for the Chair. The Chair has ruled on the application put before him by the Deputy.
I should like to ask the Taoiseach why two Bills which were regarded with some sense of urgency some time ago and which deal with company law are not on the Order Paper. What is the position regarding those two very important Bills?
The Deputy is unspecific about the Bills, but I think I can recall generally what they are. They are Bills of considerable complexity and work is proceeding with them. I have urged that work proceed as rapidly as possible as in both cases I am anxious that they should be brought before the House and enacted as soon as possible; but, as the Deputy will know, they both involve matters of considerable complexity.
Will the Taoiseach not agree that at least one of those Bills was at a very advanced stage some time ago?
We cannot have a debate on this matter.
It is of considerable concern to workers here that something is done about company law urgently.
The Deputy has got an answer to his question and I cannot allow him to continue.
We share the Deputy's concern.
I should like to ask the Taoiseach if in regard to some of the answers he gave me yesterday he would be prepared to give the House the same sort of information he sought to convey to the "Today Tonight" programme when he telephoned that programme during the course of the week?
That does not arise.
I think I am entitled to answer the point raised. May I do so, please?
The Chair would prefer if the Taoiseach did not answer because one thing will lead to another.
An imputation has been made and I think I am entitled to clarify the point. On this programme——
Order.
(Interruptions.)
On that particular programme——
The Chair would prefer if this did not proceed.
Cover it up; sweep it under the carpet.
I am not going to allow imputations against me remain unanswered. On this programme Mr. Seamus Mallon, referring to the text of the remarks I made in the House, read from them and the word "afterwards" was in the written text. That was a clerical error, and in speaking in the House I said "beforehand". I simply wished, if possible, that the fact that the word "afterwards" was not the one I had used in the House should be clarified. That is why I sought to have it clarified on the programme on the air because an incorrect impression was given of what I had said in the House for understandable reasons because there was a textual error in the text that was prepared at the same time.
Did the Taoiseach telephone the programme?
Yes, as I had done on a previous occasion when there was a factual error.
Ted will fix it.
The record of the House will show what I said. I am grateful for the opportunity to clarify the matter.
I want to submit——
The Opposition are flogging this to death.
How many students has the Minister sent to jail?
The Minister keeps putting students in jail and he will go down in the history of this country for that.
Will the Minister meet the students?
The Opposition are flogging that to death also.
Order.
The students of this country would flog the Minister to death if they got their hands on him.
This is the end of it. I do not want any more disorder.
(Interruptions.)
It is very interesting that at times like this when there is tension that fascist tendencies of the Fine Gael Party come out.
(Interruptions.)
(Dún Laoghaire): That is a gross insult for a man of the Deputy's stature.
They are a rabble.
One could not insult the Deputy opposite.
They are a rabble; get out the whip.
(Interruptions.)
It is the duty of the Chair to preserve order here and to see that the business of the House is transacted with the dignity that the national assembly is entitled to. Twice yesterday the Chair was forced to adjourn the House. It is no pleasure for the Chair to have to do that. I am saying this for the benefit of everybody. It is heading towards that again today and I hope that will not develop. I will hear one short question or comment from Deputy Haughey and that is the end of it.
I suggest, with all due deference and sharing your wish to maintain the dignity of this national parliamentary assembly, that had you been prepared to allow a very reasonable request from the Opposition——
I have ruled on that. The Deputy is being disorderly.
——you Sir, might have made a contribution to keeping order in this House.
You are being disorderly.
Would you now acknowledge that in view of this important admission by the Taoiseach that there was an error in a statement he made to the House in reply to my question?
There was no error in the statement I made in this House. What I said here was correct and Deputy Haughey knows it.
The Taoiseach's statement was full of errors.
The fact that there is at least some doubt as to what the Taoiseach's statement to this House contained so far as accuracy is concerned——
There is no doubt whatever.
Stop shouting. A Cheann Comhairle, these are the people who are being disorderly. I can see Deputy Donnellan working himself up to some other loutish interruption.
Order, please.
Give him his riding instructions.
I am now asking you, Sir — and I am not asking for an answer now because we can discuss this with you in your Chambers later — if there are not grounds for you reconsidering your refusal to allow me to raise this matter and adjourn the House under Standing Order No. 30. I do not ask you to answer this now but I hope you will consider it during the course of the day.
Lest I might mislead Deputy Haughey, and that would be wrong, I do not see any reason to change my decision.
(Interruptions.)
I appeal, Sir, that you do not adjourn the House this morning on my behalf because I have something to say about the Taoiseach's comment. I would like to ask the Taoiseach if he felt it was proper to interfere with RTE——
I am calling Item No. 2 — Protection of Animals Kept for Farming Purposes Bill, 1984: Order for Second Stage.
(Interruptions.)
I move: "That the Second Stage be ordered for Tuesday, 28 February 1984."
Is that agreed?
No, nothing is agreed.
Over a number of days you have refused to allow us to raise the issue of the students who are in jail. May I ask you a question?
No, you may not.
Would you ask the Taoiseach if he wishes to have this matter discussed in the Dáil in view of the fact that you refused to allow this matter to be discussed on the Adjournment because——
Deputy Fahey will resume his seat.
(Interruptions.)
The Government want to get out of the mess they are in. The Taoiseach is the person who went to the third level colleges telling them what a liberal person he was——
Deputy Fahey must leave the House.
(Interruptions.)
I do not want to put Deputy Fahey out of the House but he leaves me no alternative. He is being advised to stay on his feet but——
I do not want to cause chaos but I appeal to you to ask the Government——
I name Deputy Fahey and ask the Taoiseach to move that he be suspended.