Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 29 Feb 1984

Vol. 348 No. 6

Issue of Writ: Laoighis-Offaly By-Election (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:

That the Ceann Comhairle direct the Clerk of the Dáil to issue his Writ for the election of a member to fill the vacancy which has occurred in the membership of the present Dáil consequent on the death of Deputy Bernard Cowen, a member of the Constituency of Laoighis-Offaly.

(Deputy B. Ahern.)

Mr. Skelly

Before the Adjournment I referred to Deputy Lenihan's contribution and particularly to his statement that the by-election should be held because it would give everyone an opportunity to assess the situation on the ground. That is one of the main reasons why we should not have the by-election, because in the past three or four by-elections that is exactly what happened. Members of the Government, the Cabinet and both main parties went out of Leinster House and down to the constituencies where the by-elections were held. Legislation and the activities of Parliament were affected to the detriment of the economy. This is not the time to do that because the economy is unhealthy and we are trying to get it back on the right track. That is one of the reasons I would not be in favour of holding the by-election now.

I understand the frustration of any Opposition in this instance. I do not agree with Deputy Lenihan that by-elections are a reliable pointer. He cited the Donegal and the Dublin Central by-elections as recent examples of testing public opinion. They are not good examples because in Donegal in the general election the poll was 56 per cent and in Dublin Central it was 47 per cent. In a by-election where there is only one candidate the vote is concentrated and the chances are when there is a great margin over an opposing party that party will retain the seat. It does not prove anything.

Even in a constituency where a by-election is being held, it is very hard to muster up interest and because of changes in the way of life it is not easy to communicate with voters. Very often there are teams of Deputies going around the constituency seeking out voters because people do not concentrate as much now as they did in the past on shopping centres or at church gates nor do they listen to what politicians have to say.

Deputy Lenihan made the point that in 1981 when Deputy O'Kennedy went to Europe as Commissioner the by-election was not held because there was a general election in the offing. The period between January 1981 and June 1981 when the election was held was a longer time than between now and June. Nobody highlighted Laoighis-Offaly as being a particularly important constituency or that the seat was a vital one.

There were heated arguments this morning. Some Deputies on the opposite side, including Deputies Lenihan and O'Keeffe, referred to the fact that there were only Dublin Deputies on this side of the House to discuss the by-election in a rural area. Deputy Shatter and I were on this side of the House and Deputy Lenihan referred to the fact that people from a concrete jungle might learn something if they went into a rural area and saw what was happening there. I take offence at those statements, particularly, that Dublin Deputies do not have any right to speak about rural areas.

Mr. H. Byrne

You have rights but not a monopoly.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputies must address the Chair.

Mr. Skelly

It is the proportion of the population who live in Dublin that gives us so many seats. There is not a very large pure Dublin population. As one who has Tipperary roots——

Mr. H. Byrne

Ballyporeen, I suppose.

Mr. Skelly

We have every right to speak about rural areas. It is a very small country and we do not confine ourselves to the Pale. Deputy Lenihan came from Roscommon-South Leitrim and was very glad to go into the concrete jungle and take his seat there. He now represents a Dublin constituency. That is a common occurrence. Quite a large part of my constituency of Dublin West, in which there was a recent by-election, is rural. We have a number of farmers in that constituency. Perhaps when Deputies were there they did not realise that.

Mr. H. Byrne

Deputy Shatter has not got many farms.

Mr. Skelly

Deputy Shatter is well able to answer for himself. The terrible waste of the time and resources of this House in fighting by-elections has been mentioned. Of necessity Deputies' work is neglected when this is going on. We now have an opportunity to fight a by-election properly because it will coincide with the European elections. It will mean that not everybody will be concentrating on one constituency, and because European elections are being held it might result in a much more balanced position in Laoighis-Offaly. I do not see why parties cannot muster local forces to fight elections without the help of 166 TDs as well as Senators. Frankly, I do not think it makes much difference to the overall result particularly when, as happened in the past, the percentages are usually the same as in general elections.

Mr. H. Byrne

Is the Deputy going to concede?

Mr. Skelly

No. We never concede. The committee system has now got under way and I am a member of three committees which meet frequently and work very hard. That system would be upset if Deputies had to canvass in by-elections. That would be irresponsible as it is our duty to operate as legislators and to carry out our programme of government. We must concentrate on trying to solve our problems. If it is opportune for the Government not to hold this election, well, that is our prerogative——

Mr. H. Byrne

That is an admission——

Mr. Skelly

I am a very honest person and I like to speak in a straightforward manner. I have nothing to hide. If the Deputy was on this side of the House he would do the very same thing.

Mr. H. Byrne

I will be over there shortly.

Mr. Skelly

The onus is on us to sort out the position in regard to by-elections. That does not mean that we are not confident of winning the by-election. When a by-election is held people outside the constituency are not really interested. By-elections get very little coverage in the national newspapers apart from the day before and the day after.

Mr. H. Byrne

Do you agree with Deputy Kelly that by-elections should be scrapped?

Mr. Skelly

No, I do not think they should be scrapped.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputies should address the Chair.

Mr. Skelly

Deputy Connolly said this morning in regard to Laoighis-Offaly that he would sort us out——

(Interruptions.)

Mr. Connolly

I intend to sort you out.

Mr. Skelly

You will also have to sort out Deputy Shatter.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputies should address the Chair.

Mr. Skelly

I had personal experience of being sorted out in Galway East when Jock Haughey and his gang came down to Loughrea——

Mr. Power

Deputy Gay Mitchell was there, too.

Mr. Skelly

Gangs of thugs were brought in and people of 97 years of age were dragged into polling booths to vote. One person voted 37 times——

An Ceann Comhairle

The Galway by-election or the Dublin by-election are not in order in this debate.

(Interruptions.)

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputies should cease interrupting and if they speak they should address the Chair.

Mr. Connolly

It is all in good part.

Mr. Skelly

I know that. We look forward to taking on Fianna Fáil in Laoighis-Offaly when the time comes. We will be as prepared as we were in Galway East, Dublin West, Donegal and Dublin Central. It was very obvious that the Galway East by-election was very keenly contested. We were in opposition at the time and I am not saying it would have been any different if we had been in Government, but there were fleets of Mercedes cars there for the whole three weeks and Ministers stayed there for the duration of the election. That is not proper use of resources or efficient use of time. The suggestions made by Deputy Shatter and Deputy Kelly should at least be examined.

Mr. H. Byrne

You might not be here at all as you came in as the result of a by-election.

Mr. Skelly

We should take our courage in our hands and sort out the situation. The electoral system was also mentioned this morning. Deputy Lenihan mentioned the list system and Deputy Kelly also referred to the system on the Continent. People are not happy with our system and we must realise that it is very far from perfect. It is a murderous job for any Deputy to hold down and people have suggested single seat constituencies——

Mr. H. Byrne

Is this relevant to the debate?

Mr. Skelly

We are talking about the problems which by-elections cause and the effect they have on the Government and on the programme. The question should be sorted out once and for all. In the last four by-elections we had keenly fought campaigns. Other speakers have mentioned that there were promises made during by-elections in order to win votes and those in power would try to put programmes into effect in a particular constituency for this purpose. Many people vote on local issues. That is another reason for examining the system. We are legislators and our jobs is to legislate during the Dáil term and to concentrate on the problems facing the country. There is local representation on local authorities but we are elected to the Oireachtas to carry out a programme of Government for the people and to get the economy right. I support the Minister and the Government in their decision not to hold this by-election and I agree that we should hold it at the same time as the European elections.

Mr. B. Ahern

This debate has probably been too long. My understanding this morning was that this matter would not be opposed and when I was asked to move the motion I understood there was more than a 50:50 chance that it would be accepted. I have been advised by my colleague who is sitting beside me that I was misled and this is obviously so.

Many of the points made today have been relevant and I agree with Deputies Kelly, Shatter and Skelly that we waste too much time. That time is not wasted in by-elections but we have certainly wasted much time today. There was no need for long debate and it was not dragged out or filibustered by this side of the House. There are usually two or three by-elections during the lifetime of any Dáil and if we are to do away with them we will have to employ the provisions which apply in the case of county council or European seats which are filled by some mysterious method. That will not do much good for democracy. During a debate several weeks ago Members said that the way we fill European seats in the event of a vacancy arising is a total nonsense. That argument seems to have been reversed today by those who say we are not to have a by-election.

Political parties and their machines make a public mockery of by-elections when the Government and the Opposition move out of the Dáil and into a constituency. This is totally unnecessary. In a recent by-election I was director of elections for my party and we decided that with the exception of half a dozen Deputies the remainder would stay in the House and would not commence activity until the last Thursday evening at 5 o'clock when the Dáil rose. Deputies opposite will have to agree that the strategy was very successful. The old story about State cars being driven around an area and bringing out the vote is a figment of the imagination which has been built up over generations. A few gimmicky announcements during the course of a campaign have not won any by-elections in recent years. It is a total waste of time for large numbers of Members of this House to move into a constituency for a period of weeks, leaving only a few Deputies filibustering here.

Much more is at stake here. A Member has died and an area has been left without a representative to whom they are entitled. There is no reason why the by-election should not proceed. It does not suit the Government to allow Fianna Fáil to have a by-election at this stage. They have far more finances and resources than we have. They have the State cars and the printing press. The main reason the by-election is not taking place is that if it were called this week or next week it would take place before the Fianna Fáil Ard Fheis. Half the Cabinet will be out of the country on some kind of official business during the month of March and the Government will be left in the last week of the campaign without their "heavies" to go into the constituency of Deputies Hyland, Connolly and others. That is the reason the by-election has been cancelled.

I know that the members of the Labour Party in Government do not agree with this decision and that was spelled out clearly on 8 February last at column 2135 of the Official Report by the Minister of State at the Department of Social Welfare, Deputy Pattison, when he spoke about the European Parliament as follows:

...we are talking here about the record of the members of the European Parliament representing this country in Europe. That is what this June election is all about. I know it disappoints the Fianna Fáil Party that there are not local elections being held in order to keep people's minds off the major issues in Europe that were debated, voted on and discussed in depth at the European level. I am one of those people who fully support the contention that the European elections should be fought without any local or other kind of election taking place simultaneously. It is time that people were able to judge the workings of the European Parliament and, above all, the performance of the various people in the Parliament, that the central issue in the European election would not be over-shadowed by any issues of a local authority or national nature.

That is the official policy of the Labour Party as understood by me. I gather that the Labour members of the Cabinet were quite happy to proceed and to allow the writ to be moved today, as were a number of other members of the Cabinet.

Unfortunately I missed the 1.30 news bulletin today but it appears that once again somebody on the Government side has given a report of what I thought was a confidential discussion between me and the Government Whip over the past few days when we spoke about the moving of this writ. I am sure the Government Whip is well aware of what I am going to say. On Friday he tried to contact me and I in turn tried to contact him but we did not talk about the issue until Monday. I said that we might move it today but that the Fianna Fáil front bench were meeting on Tuesday, as were the Cabinet, and that we would make no decision until after those meetings. I asked the Fianna Fáil front bench not to make a decision until I had checked with the Government Chief Whip. When the meeting was over I spoke several times yesterday evening with the Government Chief Whip who led me to understand that the matter had not been discussed at the Cabinet meeting, that if I did not move it today a special Cabinet meeting would be called today to discuss the issue and that he would consult with the Taoiseach. I said that if it was a matter of a week, a week would not make any difference and that I was quite prepared to facilitate the Taoiseach and others who will be out of the country on official business on St. Patrick's Day. That has always been the practice when members of the Cabinet were away.

What happened subsequently was that the Government Chief Whip said there was no discussion yesterday and no decision and that there might be a meeting today to clear up the matter. At that stage I was informed around the House that the decision had already been taken that this by-election would not be held until 14 June. The Government Chief Whip said he was not aware of any discussion on the matter. I am not accusing him of acting in bad faith, but I can tell him across the House that the decision had been taken at Cabinet level and communicated to the local Fine Gael Deputies. This has been confirmed to me since, and confirmed to the local organisations.

I am afraid I was had. I realise I was had. The Government Chief Whip can say that the decision was not taken, but a decision was taken that this by-election would not take place now. It is absolute nonsense to say that there were behind the scene talks and that we did not want the by-election to be held. It was left to me to negotiate the matter. I found out that the decision had been taken and that I was wasting my time. I realised that if it was moved this morning, or tomorrow, or next week it would be voted down. The decision was that it would be held on 14 June. One Deputy from the constituency whom I do not have to name has since told me that was the decision. It was communicated to the Fianna Gáel Deputies and to the local organisations. Yesterday when I said I was in negotiation with the Government Chief Whip, Deputies from the constituency laughed at me. The Fianna Fáil organisation were being laughed at for having set up a convention for next Friday night. They were told it would be voted down if it was moved today, tomorrow or next week. Those are the facts. If people do not want to believe them they need not.

I am disappointed that a confidential discussion between the Government Chief Whip and myself should be leaked, when it suits, in an unreasonable and an unfair way. The story given to members of the media — they took it in good faith and unfortunately they did not check it with me — is totally wrong. I gather that Mr. Prendergast gave out that story. It is not correct. The Minister should acknowledge that it is a total misrepresentation of the discussions between himself and myself. A senior political correspondent met us when we were discussing this yesterday and both of us confirmed to him what the decision was.

I do not know how it can be made to appear that I turned down a suggestion that this should be delayed for a few weeks and that we were pushing it although we did not want the by-election held. It is absolutely extraordinary. I do not know how that could be given out by a Government source. If the Minister did not give them that information, some other Minister must have done so, somebody the Minister spoke to after he left me yesterday and before I rang him this morning. It saddens me that we cannot have a confidential discussion between two Whips without having it taken totally out of context. The truth of the matter is that the decision was taken last week. This was communicated to Deputies and to the Fine Gael organisations and to me yesterday afternoon, although I was led to believe that there might be some change after a special Government meeting while nobody had any intention of holding a special Government meeting.

Minister of State at the Department of the Taoiseach (Mr. Barrett,

Dún Laoghaire): Could I reply to that point?

Mr. B. Ahern

I would love the Minister to reply to it.

Mr. Connolly

I will have to clear up the point from a constituency point of view because my credibility is involved.

Mr. Barrett

(Dún Laoghaire): Whoever gave the information that that decision was taken was telling lies.

Mr. B. Ahern

I know I am concluding this debate, but we can do anything by agreement. If there is one word or syllable I have uttered which is unfair to the Government Whip or not in line with the facts, it should be said in the House when I sit down. The story now going about as to why we tried to push this writ through this morning is absolutely untrue. The Minister knows that. With other important business to be done, I do not think this issue should take up any more of the time of the House.

It is not a coincidence that the next business we will be discussing is the postponement of the local elections. We hear talk about trying to raise the standards of the House. The Committee on Procedures and Privileges are trying to stop the bickering and the arguments and to allow us to be seen as a good democratic Parliament. We talk about getting ourselves organised, having committees and being seen as the Parliament of the people instead of arguing and looking stupid. Yet today we are bickering over something which is unnecessary. The next issue is unnecessary as well.

Under our system of government when there are vacancies, the people are entitled to fill them. I know it can be said that in the case of Deputy O'Kennedy's by-election there was a long delay, but a general election was pending at that time and we had a 20-seat majority. I do not think it is a parallel case. By-elections should be held. It is five years since the last local elections and later today we will be debating that issue. When we talk about schools, third-level institutions and parliamentary reform it is very hard to justify doing away with local elections and by-elections. It will be very interesting to hear the justification put forward by the Government side.

Minister of State at the Department of the Environment (Mr. F. O'Brien)

It was done 13 times.

Mr. B. Ahern

That is not a justification.

Mr. F. O'Brien

Fianna Fáil did it eight or nine times.

Mr. B. Ahern

I am glad it never happened while I was in the House. I would have opposed it within my own party.

Mr. F. O'Brien

The Deputy would take the party line like everybody else.

Mr. Connolly

We did not run away from the 1979 elections.

Mr. B. Ahern

If some of the Government Deputies were allowed to speak there would not be agreement on item No. 8. We are talking about what people are saying inside and outside the House. People on the Government side are saying outside the House that they are totally opposed to the decision made last week on this by-election. This morning before I had even moved the motion, a Government Deputy said he disagreed with the decision and that the motion would be voted down. That was the first time I knew it would be voted down. If he were not such a senior Member of the House I would not have believed it. I know him to be a man of honour and integrity who would not put a wrong slant on it. He also told a number of other people in our party as far back as last Thursday that this item would be voted down.

It is regrettable that this item has taken up so much time. We were fed a load of irrelevancies and The Way Forward discussions and other matters which had nothing to do with this debate. We are talking about the right of the people of Laoighis-Offaly to fill a vacancy which they are entitled to do under the Constitution and under our form of government. I suppose the Government will now proceed with the formality of voting down our efforts to move this writ.

Mr. Barett

(Dún Laoghaire): On a point of clarification——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Briefly, Minister.

Mr. Barrett

(Dún Laoghaire): I do not want to enter into an across the floor discussion. The Opposition Chief Whip has asked me to clarify something. I do not know who told him this matter was decided last week but I can say to the House that whoever told him that was telling lies. The matter was not decided last week.

I have never been dishonourable with the Opposition Chief Whip. I have never led him astray. He may recall that last night after Private Members' Business was completed he was in my office and, because we could not come to an agreement, I suggested to him that perhaps he would postpone moving this writ this morning and that the Taoiseach had agreed that a special Cabinet meeting would be called this afternoon to discuss the possibility of arriving at an alternative date. The Chief Whip left me saying he would phone me later. He was going to a dinner and he could discuss the matter. Obviously he did not get an opportunity to do so. I came into my office at 9.30 this morning and I accept he had difficulty in getting to the phone because the phone in his own office was out of order and he told me at, possibly, 10 o'clock that he was proceeding. At that stage I notified that, if that were the case, we would be opposing the motion. That is the true version. I do not know what information was given to any Deputy here about this matter being voted down last week. That is not true. The Government were prepared to discuss alternative dates. Arrangements had been made for a Cabinet meeting this afternoon. That can be checked with the Taoiseach.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I am putting the question.

Mr. Connolly

I want to clarify my position in this. It is a matter of my credibility.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I am sorry, Deputy, I am putting the question. I cannot allow the Deputy to intervene at this stage.

Mr. Connolly

I have no wish to disobey the Chair. I gave the Chair notice.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Will the Deputy resume his seat? I am putting the question.

Question put.

The Dáil divided: Tá, 70; Níl, 79.

Tellers: Tá Deputies B. Ahern and Briscoe; Níl Deputies Barrett (

Motion declared lost.

Tá

Ahern, Bertie.Ahern, Michael.Andrews, David.Aylward, Liam.Barrett, Michael.Barrett, Sylvester.Brady, Gerard.Brady, Vincent.Brennan, Mattie.Brennan, Paudge.Brennan, Séamus.Briscoe, Ben.Browne, John.Burke, Raphael P.Byrne, Hugh.Byrne, Seán.Calleary, Seán.Collins, Gerard.Conaghan, Hugh.Connolly, Ger.Coughlan, Cathal Seán.Daly, Brendan.De Rossa, Proinsias.Doherty, Seán.Fahey, Jackie.Faulkner, Pádraig.Fitzgerald, Gene.Fitzgerald, Liam Joseph.Fitzsimons, Jim.Flynn, Pádraig. O'Rourke, Mary.Power, Paddy.Reynolds, Albert.Treacy, Noel.Tunney, Jim.Wallace, Dan.

Foley, Denis.Gallagher, Denis.Gallagher, Pat Cope.Harney, Mary.Haughey, Charles J.Hilliard, Colm.Kirk, Séamus.Kitt, Michael.Lemass, Eileen.Lenihan, Brian.Leonard, Jimmy.Leonard, Tom.Leyden, Terry.Lyons, Denis.McCreevy, Charlie.McEllistrim, Tom.Mac Giolla, Tomás.MacSharry, Ray.Morley, P. J.Moynihan, Donal.Nolan, M. J.Noonan, Michael J.(Limerick West)O'Dea, William.O'Hanlon, Rory.O'Keeffe, Edmond.O'Kennedy, Michael.O'Leary, John.O'Malley, Desmond J.Ormonde, Donal. Walsh, Joe.Walsh, Seán.Wilson, John P.Woods, Michael.Wyse, Pearse.

Níl

Allen, Bernard.Barnes, Monica.Barrett, Seán.Barry, Myra.Barry, Peter.Begley, Michael.Bell, Michael.Birmingham, George Martin.Boland, John.Bruton, John.Bruton, Richard.Burke, Liam.Carey, Donal.Cluskey, Frank.Collins, Edward.Conlon, John F.Connaughton, Paul.Coogan, Fintan.Cooney, Patrick Mark.Cosgrave, Michael Joe.Coveney, Hugh.Creed, Donal.Crotty, Kieran.Crowley, Frank.D'Arcy, Michael.Deasy, Martin Austin.Desmond, Barry.Desmond, Eileen.Donnellan, John.Dowling, Dick.Doyle, Avril.Doyle, Joe.Dukes, Alan.Durkan, Bernard J.Enright, Thomas W.Farrelly, John V.Fennell, Nuala.FitzGerald, Garret.Flaherty, Mary.Flanagan, Oliver J.

Glenn, Alice.Griffin, Brendan.Harte, Patrick D.Hegarty, Paddy.Hussey, Gemma.Kavanagh, Liam.Keating, Michael.Kelly, John.Kenny, Enda.L'Estrange, Gerry.McGahan, Brendan.McGinley, Dinny.Manning, Maurice.Mitchell, Gay.Mitchell, Jim.Molony, David.Moynihan, Michael.Naughten, Liam.Nealon, Ted.Noonan, Michael.(Limerick East)O'Brien, Fergus.O'Brien, Willie.O'Donnell, Tom.O'Keeffe, Jim.O'Sullivan, Toddy.O'Toole, Paddy.Owen, Nora.Pattison, Séamus.Prendergast, Frank.Quinn, Ruairí.Ryan, John.Shatter, Alan.Sheehan, Patrick Joseph.Skelly, Liam.Taylor, Mervyn.Taylor-Quinn, Madeline.Timmins, Godfrey.Treacy, Seán.Yates, Ivan.