Deputy Gene Fitzgerald was in possession.
Local Elections (Specification of Local Election Year) Order, 1984: Motion (Resumed).
Debate resumed on the following motion:
That Dáil Éireann confirms the following Order:
Local Elections (Specification of Local Election Year) Order, 1984,
a copy of which Order was laid before Dáil Éireann on the 13th day of January, 1984.
—(Minister of State at the Department of the Environment.)
During this debate, the arguments being made from the other side of the House have been particularly weak. The Government Members spoke about alleged local Government reform which, of course, should mean the improvement of the normal administrative operations of the services of any local authoritiy. The main reason given by many speakers for this postponement is democracy. Local elections serve a very useful and important function in that they give an opportunity to so many young boys and girls who have political interests to offer themselves as candidates for their parties, or, indeed, as Independents. If successful in launching themselves in their parties, they can then offer themselves for election to obtain the necessary experience of an election campaign. If successful in this they learn the elementary and ever so important administrative aspects of local government. This is extremely important. The vast majority of the members of this House came through that system and were county councillors before becoming TDs. I went in the other direction — I was a TD for a few years before I succeeded in being a member of a local authority. I found that membership extremely educational and helpful to me during my political life.
No valid excuse is being offered by the parties opposite for the postponement of these elections. I have listened to some of the arguments being made, which all centre around reform. Reform is very important, of course, and local government reform is something which must continue regularly and not be interrupted because of local elections or whatever else may be happening. Many of the points made demonstrate the need for reform and I support the need for local government reform. However, that does not mean that we have to stop our democratic process to achieve that reform. Rather are we using the postponement of the elections as an excuse because of that need. Reform must continue year upon year to make local government more relevant and bring it closer to the affairs of the community.
Points were made this morning by Deputy Mitchell regarding the number of representatives per head of population in Dublin city as compared with rural Ireland. They both have their own different, distinct and separate problems. I accept the points he makes about the large numbers now being catered for per head of elected representatives. On the other hand, the rural member has a big geographical area to attend to. He has a lot of road mileage, perhaps not as many people to cater for, but certainly his is a more difficult task to communicate with them or be in contact with their daily needs.
I travelled the Beara peninsula at the weekend on other missions and was shown where the road had recently collapsed, necessitating an extra journey of ten miles for the inhabitants of that peninsula. I accept that this is a sparsely populated area, but that demonstrates the difficulties encountered by a representative of such an area, or any similar area along the west coast.
The downgrading of democracy is the kernel of the postponement of the elections. It is understandable that some political advantage would accrue to the Opposition party, as indeed has happened so many times in the past. This is the first time in 30 years that Fianna Fáil will face these elections from the Opposition side of the House, and perhaps there would have been some political gain for this party. Obviously, the Government opposite were fearful of facing the electorate. They knew that the issues would be many and varied and that the ineptitude and bad performance of this Government would be clearly demonstrated by the results of the polls. Of course, the real reasons for the postponement could be given in a long list, starting with the most important of all — that of the worsening unemployment situation. The main reason for these elections being postponed is the employment situation which is showing absolutely no sign of improvement and indicates an appalling trend for February, with daily factory closures. Can the Minister present in the House honestly say that he or his party could with confidence face the electorate of Cork city, Cork county, or the town of Youghal? He could not and he knows that. The Government have shown themselves not to be interested in and to be inept at their job creation programme. I could demonstrate many instances where they have lost the heart and the will to try. My colleague, Deputy Reynolds, referred this morning to the 1,000 jobs in the micro-computer industry which has gone to Scotland. These are the issues which are responsible for the postponement of the elections.
In 1979 we, as a Government, deliberated as to whether we should go ahead with the local elections in line with the European elections being held for the first time in that year. We decided — I think, courageously — to go ahead because we believed that it would be the right thing to do. We believed that it would do two things — give the people the opportunity to vote at the various local authority levels and, in addition, encourage them to vote in the European elections. One must wonder about the commitment of the present Taoiseach, for long regarded as the great European, and how he presided over the decision not to go ahead with the local elections on the day of the European elections. All Members of this House and all commentators are saying, with some degree of accuracy, that the turn-out at the polls will suffer because of not having the local elections.
Let us go back over the lead-up to the decision. It started shortly after the last election — in fact, in the early spring of 1983, when a well known Fine Gael Senator, obviously keeping in close contact with his electoral college, circulated all Fine Gael county councillors asking for their views as to whether there should be a postponement. No mention was made in that circular of the word "reform" or of local government reform. It was purely a postponement for political purposes. All of us in this House are fully aware of the outcome of that circular and the replies received. It was an overwhelming yes. They wanted a postponement for two years. Pressures began to build up in the Labour Party and there were many bitter clashes about whether the local elections would be postponed. Then it went to the Government and we were promised a decision in a few weeks. That dragged on until the eve of Christmas. It was hoped that the media coverage given to the decision would be limited. This is why the announcement coincided with the eve of Christmas.
A whole year of political manoeuvering led to this decision but we are now being told it is because there is need for local government reform. I agree that there is. It must be an ongoing process. Early last year we put a Bill through the House changing An Bord Pleanála and setting up a new board. We were told that the main reason for that Bill was the need for reform. What happened? The board has not been set up yet. The delay between refusal and decisions on appeal has lengthened. We must make the local bodies relevant and my argument is that we do not have to stop the democratic process to do this. Let us continue to work to achieve this. Once decisions are implemented we will find that there is further need for reform. If the arguments made by Deputy Owen were an indication of her thinking on the issue there would have to be administrative changes every hour of every day to make it acceptable, suitable and efficient.
Young people are cynical about politicians. This is unfair. It is encouraged by certain elements of the press. I am not sure why. This would give an opportunity to young people to come forward for election and perhaps be successful. Instead of that we hear about early retirement in the public sector. Perhaps we should encourage early retirement in the political sector. There will be no need to do that if young people come into the system. They would encourage early retirement. Either they would keep the sitting Member on his toes or would replace him at a reasonable age in or about when a person should retire.
We have a very cost-conscious Government in many ways. We heard about the possible loss of 130 jobs in the Southern Health Board. That is another reason for postponing the local elections. The same threatened job loss applies to every health board. As they are a cost-conscious Government why do they not take into account the cost of running these elections in conjunction with the European elections? There would be a saving to the economy and that should be a factor.
In the House last week we legitimately proposed the moving of the writ in the case of the by-election caused by the death of my late colleague and very good and esteemed Member of the House, Deputy Cowen. Deputies opposite spoke about the cost and the amount of business to be done. They said the election could not be held now but would be held in conjunction with the European election to save costs. Having decided on that, the Government did a U-turn. They will not have the local elections on the same day because now they have introduced a new excuse and it is the word "reform".
I was looking at Today Tonight last night which featured an exposé of the Minister for the Public Service. I am sure it had been canned for some time. Having no-one else to portray, they decided to do their weekly contribution for the Government and let the matter rest. During the interview the Minister said he did not like the term “review” in the public service. He would prefer a different word. He was probably conscious that “reform” would have bad connotations because of its use here for blatantly obvious political reasons.
The real reason for the postponement is the chaotic state of the economy. Hair-shirt policies are being used and we are far worse off than we were a year ago. We have a changing scene in many areas. Agriculture is one of the areas which is changing. The fact that local elections would be held would mean that on various committees of agriculture there would be new members. There would also be new people on health boards.
I wonder if my experience of planning is different from that of other Members? As regards planning, we have gone backwards. It is now more difficult to obtain planning permission because there are fewer applications and more time can be devoted by people who go to great efforts to find a reason for refusal at a time when permission would mean employment for people. The sooner planning control reverts to the elected representatives of this House and local authorities the better for the country. Bureaucracy has stifled it to the extent that it is now at a serious stage. It is costly, anti-development and anti-employment. The elected representatives in the past may have erred from time to time although their errors were few by comparison with those of their successors because they were always conscious of the fact that they would have the obligation of facing the electorate. If their decisions were not in accordance with what was best for the public interest — a balanced view of a well projected and clean environment as against development that is so badly needed to create jobs — they would be the sufferers.
I know there are many other Members wishing to speak and I do not want to hog too much time. However, I know now why the Fine Gael Senator launched the campaign to postpone the elections which culminated in Government backbenchers putting forward weak arguments as to why this postponement took place. It is purely a political decision because the Government are afraid to face the electorate. In 1979 when we were in Government and having difficulties, even though we realised the risk we were taking we courageously took a decision to hold local elections. There is need for reform of the local authorities but that is not why the local elections have been postponed. The real reasons are the number of unemployed, there is a deterioration in the February figures when in any reasonable year the reverse is the case. Closures are being announced weekly with further job losses. There are cutbacks in services, particularly health services, so different and far removed from the halcyon days of the election campaign when the parties opposite promised that they would not do as Fianna Fáil did. Now we know how empty those promises were. If the Government have any vestige of honour they will hold the elections.
I asked the Taoiseach yesterday to recall the Ford closure in Cork when he visits America. It was made clear to us that a very demanding request had been made to the management of Ford in Detroit regarding meeting the Minister for Industry, Trade, Commerce and Tourism and the Minister for Foreign Affairs. Deputy Bruton said they would not let Ford walk away from their responsibilities to Cork. Since then there has been a deafening silence about the issue. When I asked the Taoiseach yesterday if he would raise the issue on his visit to the United States he refused to be drawn.
Is this relevant?
That is another reason why the local elections are being postponed. They are not being postponed because of the need for local government reform. They are being postponed because of the inept performance of the Government.
I was also very disappointed when I found out that the local elections were being postponed and many of my constituents were also disappointed. Every five years the electorate have an opportunity to elect their county and urban councillors to represent them. This is a great privilege because if they are dissatisfied with their local authority representative they have that opportunity to show it. A very flimsy excuse was put forward by the Government as to the reason for deferring local elections.
We heard about the need for restructuring local government or local government reform. I agree that there is need for local government reform but the local authorities should make a contribution to the type of reform they would like. They could make submissions to the Government and to the Minister for the Environment. That would be the proper way to do it. However, it is not a justifiable excuse for deferring the local elections. As pointed out by Deputy Gene Fitzgerald, the real reason for the deferment of the local elections was that the Government were afraid to face the electorate. When they made this decision before Christmas they knew quite well that if they held local elections this year Fianna Fáil would get a majority on most local authorities.
We had a similar situation last week in the Dáil when a writ was moved by our party to fill the vacancy caused by the death of Deputy Cowen by way of a by-election in the Laois-Offaly constituency. The Government postponed this election also and are now planning to hold it on the same day as the European elections. If they were honest they would tell us that the reason for the postponement is that they were afraid to face the electorate. It was strange that the Government did not make a decision to defer the local elections until after a very controversial by-election in Dublin. Our party did very well in that by-election and the two parties in Government suffered a great humiliation in the loss of a considerable number of votes. This made them make up their minds very quickly to defer the local elections as well as the pending by-election in Laois-Offaly.
The role of county and urban councillors is a very important one. It is essential to say that they are unpaid representatives and the majority of them do their job very effectively. Many county councillors from my party in County Kerry were anxious to have the local elections this year. They were not afraid to go before the electorate and face the consequences. They have been doing their job well and they are aware that the Government are not doing well and would suffer a defeat at the polls. Their constituents are anxious to have an opportunity of deciding whether after five years their local representatives have been effective and they wish to vote accordingly. I am sure our party would have a good result, especially in my county
One of the Dáil representatives from Kerry is the Tánaiste who held office as Minister for the Environment when this decision was made. He knew, as did the Fine Gael Party, that their standing was not very high in county Kerry and this spurred him to make a decision in the interests of his own party and to encourage those in Coalition at Cabinet level to defer the local elections for another 12 months. Have we any guarantee that they will not be deferred again next year and that the electorate will not be deprived again of the opportunity of electing local representatives? I would ask for an assurance from the Government side on this point.
Local authorities are very effective, especially when nothing is being done at Government level. Kerry County Council recently had a very important discussion about the serious unemployment problem. The unemployment rate in Kerry is 28.7 per cent and one-quarter of those unemployed are under the age of 25. This was highlighted in the press, especially the national press, and it was stated that it was the first time ever that a local authority had devoted a whole day to discussing the unemployment problem in their area. We have the second highest unemployment rate in the country after Donegal. Much publicity has been given to unemployment in the neighbouring county of Cork but the percentage of unemployed people is greater in county Kerry. This is one of the reasons the Government are not anxious to have the local elections.
The number of people unemployed in the State has risen to 216,000, the highest ever recorded. At this time of year the unemployment figures are usually falling and an increase in the month of March is unusual. This is a very good reason for trying to defer the local elections. The Government should be honest and tell us the real reason — that they are afraid to face the electorate. They showed the white feather in relation to the local elections and the by-election. The Government owe it to the electorate to give them an opportunity of rejecting them or voting in favour of them. The local elections would have provided an ideal opportunity of proving whether the Government have maintained their majority position or whether they had suffered a loss of support from the electorate.
Local elections are a great way of determining the feelings of the people. A Fine Gael Senator from my county, not my constituency, sent a letter to the Fine Gael county councillors asking them to express their views on whether they wanted the local elections deferred. Naturally he got replies saying they were terribly anxious to have them deferred due to the bad performance by the Government over the past 14 months. Some time ago unlimited power was given to the county managers to introduce service charges of any kind they could think of and, without consultation with the local elected representatives, they could make an order to have service charges introduced or increased. It did not make any difference if the local authority in question voted unanimously that those service charges should not be introduced or increased. They did not count. That power should not have been given to the county managers. It should have been left with the local authorities.
In the past local authorities got 100 per cent rate support grants. An allowance was always made for inflation. The amount allowed for inflation over the past two or three years was in the region of 12 per cent to 15 per cent. Last year 15 per cent was added to the rate support grant. This year only .8 per cent was added. Inflation is running at about 10 per cent or 11 per cent. How do the Government expect the local authorities to carry on with an increase of .8 per cent in the rate support grant?
Kerry County Council have a shortfall of £2 million in their estimates. That has to be made up in some way or another, by service charges or by curtailments. I cannot see where there can be any curtailment in the services given to the people of County Kerry. A 100 per cent support grant should be given to the county councils and an allowance should be made for inflation.
The people in North Kerry and South Kerry — the people I know best — were very disappointed when the Government deferred the local elections this year. They wanted the opportunity, which is their right every five years, to elect the county councillors or urban councillors, as the case may be, of their choice. They were denied the right to do that this year by the Government. The Government knew that the respective parties in Government, Fine Gael and Labour, would not do well in the local elections and would possibly fail to achieve a majority in all the local authorities. That would not look well for the Coalition, and that is the real reason why the local elections were deferred this year.
I welcome this opportunity to speak on how central Government can provide a better way for the local authorities to function in the interests of the people in the local areas. It is essential that we get the best value for the tax-payer's money. It is logical that a survey should be made on local government reform to enable us to get better value for public money and bring our administrative procedures up to date.
Are the Government really serious about this matter, or is this exercise a camouflage to give the public at large the impression that the reason for postponing the local elections is proposed local government reform? I doubt that is the real reason. I am disappointed that we have no proposals from the Government side. We have no plans or suggestions either from them. Are the Coalition Government looking for ideas from this side of the House?
I find it very difficult to accept that the reason for postponing the local elections is due to the fact that the Government are looking for new ways of financing local authorities. Local authorities are being forced to impose charges which probably will not be feasible or acceptable in future years. Government grants should be based on efficiency within the county council regions and not on a flat percentage base as they are at the moment. We have very efficient county councils and some county councils are not very efficient, but grants are distributed to all local authorities on the same basis. Some councils do more work than others and because of their geographical position have more difficult problems to deal with. That should be investigated. The efficiency and quality of work by councils, the labour costs versus the material costs, and the time taken to complete schemes are factors that should be considered under any new proposals to deal with the financing of local authorities.
In County Meath, where I come from, people are frustrated because of the condition of the roads. The upkeep of county roads in our county is a major problem. It appears that the county is being severely penalised by the system of allocation of grants from central funds.
Acting Chairman (Mr. J. Fahey)
I have given the Deputy a lot of latitude on this subject and I would be obliged if he would concentrate on the provisions in the Bill.
I am dealing with the question of the distribution of money by the Exchequer to local authorities. County roads in Meath carry a lot of extra traffic by-passing the city of Dublin.
Acting Chairman
We are dealing only with the postponement of the local elections.
I was anxious to highlight the need for an improvement in the system of financing of local authorities from central funds. Some counties should get more money than others. I understood I was entitled to make that point during this debate because we are dealing with local government reorganisation. Road grants to Meath should be a lot higher than they are and should be considered by the Government when restructuring local authority finance. County Meath at one time consisted of large estates and that land was divided up by the Land Commission. The roads provided later consisted of tar top dressings. Money was not provided by the Government for that work. Now milk tankers, oil tankers and heavy farm machinery use those roads with the result that their condition has deteriorated. Grants are not paid to the council to carry out improvements.
The Government are collecting a lot more revenue now than heretofore. It is estimated that in 1983 £4,681 million was collected and that in 1984 £5,254 million will be collected, an increase of 12½ per cent. However, the Government allotted .8 per cent of that revenue to local authorities but Government programmes got an 8 per cent increase on average. That is an indication that the Government are holding on to more of the money being collected from taxpayers. They are not distributing it to local authorities in the way they should. The plan for better financing of local authorities should have a minimum and maximum percentage grant from central funds for local authorities. Councils are being forced to collect taxes locally because of the failure of the Government to allocate sufficient money. The Government should have made a proper allocation in the budget and they should not be asking local authorities to rubber stamp taxes which they themselves did not have the courage to include in the budget.
In County Meath we have a Labour TD and councillors and a Fine Gael TD and councillors trying to cod the people by saying that they are not in favour of these increases although they supported them in the House. I do not think the electorate in the constituency will forget this. Local authorities are being forced to re-introduce rates but Fianna Fáil refused to support that system because it is an unjust way of collecting money from people. It is wrong to charge a flat rate of £20 for refuse collection or £30 for water rates per house because it does not take into consideration the income of each household. In one household the weekly income could amount to £500 while the next house may be occupied by an old age pensioner and his wife. The system is unjust, but councils are being forced to implement it because the Government decided to limit the increase to them to .8 per cent.
We are all aware that because wages, salaries and travelling expenses paid by local authorities have increased less money is available for work on schemes. Local authorities can only do a minimum amount of work but must pay the maximum wages. They are fully occupied collecting car tax, supervising planning permissions and investigating loan and grant applications. A lot of money is spent on administration but there is very little development work taking place. That must be sorted out by the Government. I cannot understand the reason for postponing the local elections. We have been told that the Government want to reorganise local authorities but yet they are forcing such bodies to impose new charges that may not be suitable in the future. Would it not be more sensible to hold the elections and permit the newly-elected councillors sort out the financial problems of the councils?
In the region of £13.7 million will be spent in County Meath on capital programmes but a big percentage of that figure will be paid in wages. Successful contractors should be asked to produce clearance certificates from tax inspectors indicating that all PRSI deductions are made, that all PAYE is deducted and so on. There have been cases where some contractors did not send in all the money. I think it would be very simple to have a clause in the contracts to the effect that money would not be paid unless all these matters were clarified beforehand.
It is a matter for the local authority.
The Minister should think about this in connection with any proposed local government reform and encourage local authorities to implement this. It is a very important area. This is public money. It is taxpayers' money. Finally, my party and I are very anxious indeed to receive as soon as possible the draft proposals of the Coalition Government's plan for better local government.
I want to protest in the strongest possible manner against the postponement of the local elections. I can see no good reason whatsoever why these elections should be postponed for 12 months and we have no guarantee that at the end of that period this Government will not come along again and seek to postpone them for a further 12 month period. We all accept there is need for local government reform and if I thought for one moment that the Government were sincere in their claim that the elections are being postponed to allow reform to take place I would not object. Indeed, I would actually welcome the decision. But I doubt the sincerity of the Government in this matter. I doubt it because they have had plenty of time since coming into Office to put before this House their proposals for reform. We do not know if there are any proposals. We do not know if there are any discussions going on with regard to the changes considered necessary. We can only come to the conclusion, therefore, that this Government are afraid to face the electorate in any contest at the moment. This means they realise they are very unpopular and they know and anticipate what the answer from the electorate would be were they to seek a contest.
There is a very serious aspect to this, serious in any democracy but especially at a time when a Government is unpopular, unpopular because of their mismanagement of the affairs of the nation. In such an atmosphere it is even more important to give the electorate an opportunity of expressing themselves and letting the Government know what they think of them. It is important the electorate should be allowed to express their feeling through the ballot box. What makes me very suspicious as to the reasons for the postponement of the elections is that we had the writ for the by-election in Laois-Offaly strenuously opposed by the Government only last week. Taken with the decision to postpone the local elections, that leads me to the conclusion that there are no proposals being formulated with regard to reforming local government. This is a smoke-screen designed to cover up the real reason and that is why I regret this action so much.
I was first elected to a local authority way back in 1950 and I served on the county council for over 30 years. With that experience I realise full well the responsibility of a member of a local authority and the type of decisions that have to be made. Unfortunately today the responsibility of a member of a local authority in the decision-making of that authority is declining all the time and the latest action of the Government in allowing county and city managers to reintroduce service charges at whatever rate they saw fit, regardless of what elected members might think, was a retrograde step indeed. To me it was a dangerous step from the point of view of democracy, because county and city managers do not have to offer themselves to the electorate and give an account of their stewardship. Elected members are the best to decide what is suitable in their particular areas and so it is vitally important that local elections should be held. They should be held next June. They should be held in conjunction with the European Parliamentary elections. That would go some way towards saving the cost of local elections. It is something worth considering in the tight financial situation we are in today. Local authorities are starved for money.
Having said that, the real reason why these elections should be held is that there are many important decisions to be made by local authorities, decisions which will affect the people within the particular local authority area now and for many years to come. The local authority scene is changing and changing rapidly and therefore it is important that members be elected at regular intervals in order to give the electorate an opportunity of bringing new people in on the local councils. I know there are many young people with fresh ideas only waiting to offer themselves to the electorate if they get the opportunity by way of a local election. There are, too, many older members of local authorities who would wish not to go forward again and it is a burden on them to have to continue for another 12 months or possibly two years. It is shameful of the Government not to give young people an opportunity of presenting themselves to the electorate and not to give the electorate an opportunity of putting young people on the councils to deal with the many problems that exist.
We have problems in many areas and it is high time more authority was given back to the members and more say with regard to planning. Because local authority members are local they are conversant with the local situation and they are therefore better fitted to deal with planning. They are aware of the needs and requirements of the area. Greater powers must be given to them and this Government took a step backwards when they took away from local authorities any say in the financing of what are now called "services". Service charges are just another form of taxation, another form of rates, an extra burden the people are unable to bear. Taking the power in this particular matter away from locally elected representatives is very harmful to local democracy in the eyes of the electorate. This is the action of a Government who in their election campaign promised the people that they would confer greater powers on elected representatives. This situation is a complete turn-about on that promise.
With this kind of carry on it is no wonder the people are losing respect for those in public life. It is all the twisting and turning that give rise to this situation. I recall when local authority members had the right to raise the rate and I remember the democratic manner in which that rate was struck. I remember people protesting against an increase of a few pence in the pound and marching to express their views which were taken into account by the elected representatives. Because this power and authority are removed from elected representatives the people are frustrated and the frustration will have a very bad effect on the local scene as far as democracy is concerned.
We hope that the elections will not be postponed for two years but one never knows what will happen when this Government are in power. They have postponed the local elections and they have opposed moving the writ for the by-election. Will they also ask to extend the period of Dáil elections to seven years because they are afraid to go before the people? I want to warn them that when they get the opportunity the people will deal with them most severely. As far as democracy is concerned, it is a mistake to deny the people the opportunity to vote in local elections.
Many important decisions must be made with regard to financing local authorities. I doubt that we will have reform of local government under this administration because they back away from taking decisions. Their only objective is to remain in office and they use their majority in this House to achieve that. However, if we are to have reform the whole scene will have to be reviewed completely.
I suggest to the Minister of State that we must consider at this stage the amalgamation of counties perhaps on a regional basis. Machinery and materials are under-utilised. The county system is too small a unit to operate in a proper and cost-saving way. Roads in one county can have an effect on an adjoining county or city. Perhaps we could have a national road authority. We know there is a difference in the standard of roads in many counties and this is showing itself in many ways. There should be some uniformity in the allocation and spending of money in respect of local authorities. That is not the situation at the moment.
If we have reform, I ask the Minister of State to ensure that it is proceeded with speedily. The Government should honour their promises. If they prove me wrong and if they have given us the genuine reason for the postponement of the local elections, then I shall not worry about it. However, I honestly believe the local elections are being postponed because the Labour Party and Fine Gael are not prepared to go before the people next June. This is a blow to democracy at local level. Many young people want to put their names before the electorate but they are being denied that right. Even at this late stage the Government should reconsider the matter.
Tá mé buíoch go bhfuair mé an deis seo labhairt ar an ghné seo atá chomh tábhachtach chomh fada is a bhaineann sé le daonlathas na tíre.
I hope I will not be repetitive but, as a democrat, I must state my disappointment with the decision of the Government to deprive the people of Ireland of what was provided for in legislation, namely, that there would be quinquennial local elections. It is not because I am the product of such an election procedure myself that I have this respect for and attachment to the importance of local elections. There are many people, professional and non-professional, who are inspired by the highest motives and who regard local elections as an opportunity for them to say what motivates them towards improving society.
I have no doubt the Government have postponed the local elections because they knew the voters would indicate their dissatisfaction with the way they have performed in office. Understandably the Government are fearful of losing their stranglehold on many local authorities. It is possible for them under the legislation to postpone the elections but it is not in accord with the high principles and the many statements of this Government in which they claimed to have regard for the man in the street, for vox populi. They told us they were going to decentralise and that they were going to use all community efforts and voices in the administration of services. Today they say that in deferenece to that principle they are trying to introduce community policing. In the past they said they were concerned about giving rights to community councils. We cannot accept anything from this Government. We cannot accept their bona fides when we see that they are denying people the opportunity to vote in local elections and return their elected representatives to deal with local affairs.
Understandably, the Government did not wish to give the people an opportunity to vote in local elections because they could anticipate the result, but that is not a good reason for postponing the elections. That is not what democracy is about. In addition, the normal pruning of parties and personalities cannot be done. The normal induction of new members which would occur is being denied and the whole system will be much the poorer for it. I had the pleasure and opportunity of serving on Dublin Corporation with the Minister of State present. In passing I must say he is carrying a fairly lonely burden on those benches. Since the debate resumed he has not had the companionship of any Member from the Labour Party or from his own party. I know that any of those Members who are also members of local authorities are quite happy to soldier on: they are quite happy to keep someone else at bay. I say unashamedly that probably there are people in all parties who welcome that aspect of it. But we should not be catering for that insular and mean approach to local elections. The local election is the best mechanism of which I am aware of allowing new blood to enter into administration and simultaneously provide a launching pad for people who would have the capacity, intelligence, motivation and ambition to reach this forum. That is being denied them, and the nation and society are the poorer for it. I shall keep repeating: the only reason it is being done is that this Government know that the voice of the people would be against them.
I do not like commenting on matters I hear about discussions in other parliamentary parties. It is well known that when this was being deliberated there were very few defenders of this system, not because they did not admire the system or because they do not recognise the importance of local authorities but because it would prove embarrassing for them.
I know also it can be said correctly that there was an occasion when the Fianna Fáil Government postponed local elections. That is the only reason that has been advanced from the other side of the House. I put it to them: are they happy with what they know to have been an undesirable feature of administration? Are they happy to take refuge in that excuse for postponing it themselves? Are they happy that by doing this for one year now, perhaps two, they can live and face the people at a future election? It has been done in the name of setting up new structures, that they are examining the whole structure of local government.
Not examining it, reforming it.
The Minister will have an opportunity of indicating to the House how, in pursuit of such reformation he thinks it necessary to deny the people their right to vote, as is provided.
We did not abolish them.
The Minister of State can refer to the past and soliloquize to himself, but it is not my style to be living in or referring to the past. Apart from the tuppence-halfpenny references the Minister of State can make to matters like these, he will not be able to demonstrate to this House any real reason, in the interests of reformation of local authorities, why he has decided to postpone the local elections. It cannot be done.
Of course, it can.
How would the holding of a local election interfere with whatever reformation the Minister or the Government have in hand? It could not.
The Deputy would not understand.
All right, my understanding might not have reached the pinnacles of those of the Minister of State. But I defy the Minister of State present to convince this House, or to demonstrate to the people in his constituency, how it is in their best interests that he is taking refuge in this clap trap, maintaining that they are doing it in the interests of reformation. For example, how does he relate that to what he promised them in the last general election that he would involve them, include them, in government? How can he relate it to the addresses he gave individually and collectively to people in, say, Meath Street or Francis Street in his constituency when now he is afraid to meet them? That is the whole reason it is being done, because he cannot account for his stewardship in the whole area of Government whether at parliamentary or local level. He can sit there in his safe seat and smugly say that we do not understand the high principles that motivate him.
That is right.
We can look at the position since they took office and see that there is very little evidence, wherever are the principles, that their fruits can be shown in this country which has been brought to the brink of disaster by their pursuit of the word and neglect of action. That is the sad situation this country finds itself in today. That is the sole reason the Minister of State and his colleagues, who have made it their business to absent themselves from him since this debate began——
I see we have the three European musketeers in.
——and he is in a most uncomfortable seat at present. I would say that if he could get anybody to come in and displace him——
The boy scout.
——it would be the first time I would have known the Minister of State, Deputy F. O'Brien, relinquish his seat gladly. I am glad that my concern for him is being responded to by his colleague, Deputy Durkan. Deputy Durkan, I suppose in deference to whatever loyalty he feels to the Government, will endeavour to justify why they should be postponed.
I already did.
He will have the claptrap of local government reformation. But he will be unable to demonstrate how, by denying people the right to voice their opinion after a five-year period, they are doing so in the interests of the people, because they know they are not and the Minister of State knows they are not. Deputy Gay Mitchell knows they are not. I suppose all politicians — especially as they move on in years — might be somewhat fearful of colleagues who are with them. Some might be looking over their shoulders saying: "If they are held, X, Y and Z will make his or her presence felt and the seat I hold in parliament will be put at risk", But that is what democracy is about; this is the perfect system. That is how it should be: there should be no safe seats in any party in any constituency. Rather should the system be refreshed at regular intervals so that the holders of office will apply themselves to the carrying out of their duties in a fashion that they will not have to fear anybody in pursuit of them. That is the ideal way. But where the system is stagnate, where this complacency is allowed enter in, where people are guaranteed that instead of what was initially to be a five-year period they will be cushioned if things are not going well for them so that they will get another one, two or three years, unspecified extensions, that is not a very good system.
The people opposite did it eight times.
I never did it once.
Order, gentlemen.
I never did it at all. If the Minister is happy to set as his standards the inadequacies of any former Governments then he is welcome to them. That is not the way in which I operate. One does what is right irrespective of what anybody else did. We can talk about this until the cows come home and think we are codding the people, but as far as I am concerned there is no justifiable reason ever to postpone local elections. It happens only when those in power are fearful of the consequences. That is so, no matter which Government do it.
Before I was encouraged into other avenues by the Minister of State I was indicating that what is being done now is entirely contrary to what the Government told us in regard to their respect for and anxiety to engage people in the running of the business of the country. The insincerity, the illogicality and the downright untruthfulness of what is being paraded for us now cannot be unrelated to the purpose behind postponing the by-election in Laois-Offaly. The Taoiseach said he did not want to confuse the electorate in respect of the European election by holding the local elections simultaneously. I have a personal interest in not confusing the electorate in that respect, but I cannot see how we would be confusing the electorate in regard to the holding of the European elections on the same day as the local elections and not be confusing them by holding the by-election on the same day as the European election. That illustrates the insincerity of the Taoiseach in this respect. I have no doubt that after the European election and when things have made themselves visible, the Taoiseach will find some other justification for again postponing the local elections.
We hear occasionally in the House about the different strands of democracy and how they might operate. Often we go across to Europe and cite what happens in countries there. It is worth considering the situation until recently in Switzerland, and even now, where not alone do they have these elections but when any matter affecting the democratic rights of the people arises they are asked to vote. We do not hear such instances being quoted here now. We have a denial to the electorate of a right prescribed by statute to elect local representatives once every five years.
I am not about to generalise on a particular case but I am especially annoyed at the postponement of these elections because, apart from a miscellany of considerations, the elections would have allowed the people of Dublin to give expression to their anxiety and frustration and fear in regard to the water supply. The Department of Health have not yet given us a report on how dangerous it is for the people of Dublin to drink the water with which they are supplied. There is particular concern among the people who receive their supplies from the Leixlip reservoir. More recently we have read in the newspapers how a new element has appeared in the water supply in Stillorgan where the reservoir is in such a thin state that they may have to ration water there. North of the Liffey——
I do not think we can have a prolonged discussion on the water supply position.
It was not my intention to have a detailed discussion on it. I was illustrating how unfortunate it is that these elections have been postponed because they could have been used by the electorate to express their opinion on a fundamental service which is now denied to them. I listened carefully both here and in my room and I do not think I would be out of order in saying that it has ranged over a much wider field——
The Chair has done its best to try to limit these wide ranging aspects but if every item which the electorate might wish to express their concern on were taken up here we would be debating them for a long time.
I appreciate that the Chair has not excluded from his sympathetic consideration other Deputies who have referred——
If all 165 Deputies were to pick one item each we would be here for a long time.
I reminded the Minister of State that he is the lonely occupant of that side of the House, so I do not think there is a queue of Deputies offering from that side.
Deputy Tunney is very lonely on his side, with only Deputy Lemass beside him.
The Deputy will not be disappointed at the number who will appear to speak. I think it would be out of order to refer to the whole area of local government but the Chair will appreciate that in circumstances where the water supply is contaminated and when the Department of Health say that the Newbridge sewage works are suspect——
The Chair is ruling that anything like a full debate on local government is not in order.
That is not my intention. The people have been informed that another source of pollution arises from the bovine TB eradication scheme. If the local elections were to take place the electors would present their case to every aspirant, as is their right. The candidates would have to make their case to the electorate. The kernel of the matter is that the people are being deprived of their right to flush out or to retain people whom they think are fit to serve on local authorities. They have been denied that right. People who aspire to membership of local authorities want the satisfaction which membership itself gives to them — A Cheann Comhairle, I do not know if it is in order for Deputies to sit on the steps——
Not for prolonged periods.
How small-minded can we get?
Deputies have sat on the steps of the House for a longer time than Deputy Tunney has been here.
(Interruptions.)
Order.
I thought I saw in the papers in the last day or two an expression of sensitivity which people have to what obtains in the House and I decided to draw your attention to it on this occasion. I am not majoring in it.
When the President of the US came here people sat all over the place and they were not being disrespectful. They did it in another Parliament and they did it in this Parliament.
Deputy Tunney, without interruption.
I have looked for the reformation promised to us by the Minister of State, his senior Minister and the present Minister for Labour. If I had any indication to date of the nature of such reformation and of the benefits that would accrue therefrom, then I would sit back and wait patiently for these manifestations. None of them has come, none will come. The truth is that people's rights are being denied to them because we fear what they would tell us. I suppose that fear is understandable for any inefficient Government, but if that is so, let the Government tell us so. Do not let them give a veneer of virtue to what is mean and undemocratic. You can employ people to do that for you, but the gain in it is very short-term and it is a gross injustice and affront to what we call democracy. It is a gross injustice and insult to the electorate, and the deprivation in it can prove most harmful.
What is the position in respect of men and women, people young and not so young, outside who are looking forward to the local elections as the means by which they can avail of this thing which we call democracy? Are they to be frustrated? I am sure they are. Are they to contain their frustration for another year or two, for this undefined period? Having established that the Government are postponing the elections on the grounds that they cannot face the electorate, it is fairly obvious to everybody that such grounds will obtain for two, three or maybe five more years. What about people outside who are waiting in the queue to demonstrate that they are prepared to offer themselves to the people? What are they to do meanwhile? I do not think that they will be as patient as people here would hope.
That is all I wish to say on this very important matter. I suppose there is little point in appealing to the Government to change their mind. What they are doing they have the power to do. They have not and should not have the right to do it. They have the power——
We have the right.
——and they will in the short term gain advantage as they will be keeping off the evil day, but like all evil days, when it eventually comes I am glad that it will not be visiting itself on this side of the House.
It was not my intention to speak on this debate, but after listening to Fianna Fáil speakers all day I feel I have just a few words to say. Most Deputies spoke about democracy and the lack of it in postponing local elections. During my 23 years in this House local elections have been postponed on four occasions. In 1965 they were postponed to 1966 and that matter was not debated for a full day. In 1966 they were postponed to 1967 and the Opposition of the day accepted that. In 1973 they were postponed until 1974 and a different Opposition accepted it. They were postponed in 1974 to 1975 and the same Opposition accepted it.
There were local elections in 1974.
I may have got my years wrong, but not alone were they postponed on one occasion for a year but immediately that year was up they were postponed for another year. I cannot understand the lack of trust on the part of the present Opposition or that the same attitude should not apply again when the present Government put forward a reason for the postponement of the elections.
I listened to a radio news bulletin at 8 o'clock one morning last week and then I heard the same news bulletin at 9 o'clock and again at 10 o'clock. I could not help but think that the Northern community were very lucky that they had damn all to do with us. There we were in the Dáil talking about bugging and a by-election in Laois-Offaly when 212,000 people are unemployed, people are looking for houses and we need all the services to mobilise the resources of the State to take us out of our difficulties. All the Opposition are talking about is the postponing of by-elections and local elections. Where are we going? What guidance are we giving to both communities in the North of Ireland, especially the community who do not want to join with us and are probably quietly thanking God for being right in their judgment in wanting to have nothing to do with us because when real problems are to be resolved we are Mickey-Mousing about when it is right to hold a by-election or local elections — as if it is of any moment to the person going to the labour exchange and from whom Deputy Tunney will be looking for a vote in a few months.
Deputy Harte must accept that part of the big problem in the North of Ireland is the distortion that has occurred in the matter of depriving people of the right to vote.
I will not enter into a debate with Deputy Tunney——
This is not a debate on the North of Ireland.
The reflex thinking that came into my head was that both communities in the North of Ireland were clapping their hands and saying that they were very fortunate to have had damn all to do with us from the beginning if this is the leadership we are giving. If Deputy Tunney wants to debate the democracy of local elections vis-á-vis general elections or whether local elections can prove anything on the performance of a government in power, I will be prepared to debate it with him for as long as he wishes. He is an experienced Deputy in this House. He is a man of wisdom and maturity and he knows as well as I do that people vote in local elections for totally different issues. They vote for the local man, and politics very seldom comes into it. The hardened party supporter, no matter what his affiliation, will vote on the party ticket, but a surprising thing in local elections is that the basic party vote is much smaller than it is in a general election.
Therefore, there is no relevance whatever in saying that a Government in power should not postpone local elections because they might be a barometer of the popularity or otherwise of the party in power. Deputy Tunney knows that well and I am disappointed in the extreme after listening to the type of speech that he, a man so long in this House, has been making for the past hour. I have always looked on him as someone who could give a particularly interesting point of view to the House. You might not agree with it, but at least he has thought the matter out well and can put it forward for the consideration of Deputies listening to him. What brought me into the House——
If I did not believe——
A long discussion on Deputy Tunney would not be in order.
I am just giving my reason. I was sitting in my office and switched on the monitor to find out what was happening in the House. I listened to Deputy Tunney for about 20 minutes and have never heard him being so ill-informed. He is either filibustering to keep this debate going for some reason which I cannot understand or he is totally out of touch. A local election is held to elect a local Government — a county council. I do not profess to be an authority on what would happen in the city of Dublin or in my neighbouring counties, Leitrim or Sligo, but I have a fair enough idea of what would happen in county Donegal.
The people there would agree, including the Fianna Fáil members of the county council, that, by and large, if we had a local election in Donegal at present every candidate offering for re-election would be returned and if there were a change of personnel it would be one member of a political party replacing another member. Whether we lost or gained 100 votes in an electoral area would prove nothing other than that a candidate went or did not go out to fight for votes. It would not act as a political barometer that a Government were or were not doing well in office and Deputy Tunney and the other members of the Fianna Fáil Party know this. There is as little political involvement in a local election as the political system will allow. People are not interested to the same extent in voting for a county councillor — and here I am speaking about the Donegal people — in a local election there. They are not as particular about the politics of a candidate for a county council election as they would be for a Dáil election.
It is remarkable that the former Senator McGlinchey when first standing for the local elections proposed a Fine Gael candidate and the Fine Gael candidate signed Senator McGlinchey's nomination paper. That is a matter of public knowledge in County Donegal. One of those men has gone to his just reward, but Senator McGlinchey had a certain amount of affection towards the person who stood for the Fine Gael Party and the candidate who was not elected — who was a personal friend of mine — would often tell me that he did it out of fun — that there were no real politics about it.
I am at a loss as to why the Fianna Fáil Party, who should be helping the Government to find the proper direction in resolving the problems facing this nation, are not doing so and they disappoint me. The arguments put forward are that it is wrong for the Government to postpone the elections because if they do, they will be beaten when they go to the country. In other words, it is suggested that it is not really in the Opposition's own interest, but in the interests of the two parties in Government to hold these elections. Nobody would be fooled by that argument. In the discussions which I have had with Fianna Fáil Deputies and councillors in this matter, nobody is getting hot under the collar about whether or not the elections are postponed. The back bench Members of the Fianna Fáil Party would willingly and openly admit — they would certainly not cloak it — that they are not up in arms against the Government for postponing the elections. I do not know who on the part of the Opposition has taken this decision to have a filibustering debate here, but it does no credit to their party and does not bring any credit on this Parliament. There are far more important things to be debated here and it is time we attended to them.
Water charges have been given as the reason for the postponement and the Opposition regard these charges as a hot potato, politically speaking. These charges result not from a fault of this Government, but of the Fianna Fáil Party who, without planning an alternative way of collecting finance and for no good reason, certainly no good economic reason——
The Chair had a discussion on this subject earlier today and he must continue to point this out.
I am merely replying to the point raised. I shall not develop it.
That is all right, Deputy. However, you cannot have a long discussion on this.
In 1977, the Fianna Fáil Party, not in the interests of the economy, decided to abolish rates. They had been in power all my lifetime ——
If we discuss the 1977 elections and all subsequent elections, we will be getting into a very long debate.
I do not wish to be obstructive and shall not be speaking for any great length of time. I just want to make this point. The Fianna Fáil Party abolished rates in 1977, with what effect? We know why they did this. It was not in the interests of the ratepayers — it was for political expediency, to get votes. As the former Deputy, Seán Collins, would have said "It was to get back near the loot, it was to get back into power". That was the only reason. The effect of abolishing the rates on very large houses whose owners could have afforded to pay £500, £600 and £1,000 a year, while people living in county council cottages were being charged about £45 a year rates ——
The Deputy is getting into a debate on rates.
The effect now is that houses in both those categories will be charged the same — the £45 valuation on the poorer house being £90 and the person capable of paying £500 or £1,000 will still only have to pay £100.
Would the Deputy please move to another topic?
(Interruptions.)
The Fianna Fáil Party profess to having the interests of the poor at heart all the time.
Deputy Harte is giving wrong information.
This is the depth of Fianna Fáil thinking, to dangle this carrot in front of the people as a reason for fighting the elections and giving this as the reason for the Government not wanting to fight the elections. That makes no sense and the ordinary people know this. People know that the water rate has to be paid, one way or the other, whether indirectly or directly.
Why are the Government postponing the elections? Give us the reasons.
Deputy Tunney concluded his contribution by appealing to the Government to change their minds. The Government will not change their minds.
Why not?
Because they have taken their decision.
What are their reasons?
They have taken their decision and I am not going to repeat it.
They have changed their minds very often in the past.
The Deputies can talk until the cows come home, but when the division bells ring the Government Deputies will vote one way and the Opposition Deputies the other, and we know that the result is a foregone conclusion.
The same applies to every debate.
Deputy Tunney appealed to the Government to reconsider their decision and to have the local elections. I appeal to Deputy Tunney to go to the leader of his Party and ask him to stop this filibustering, to put this vote to the House and let us behave as a Parliament of grown-up people and make a serious attempt to tackle the problems which we must tackle. They should stop talking about Mickey Mouse issues on when local elections or by-elections are to be held or who bugged whose telephone. I am sick listening to that.
The Government have done a U-turn often enough. They should do it here.
Having listened to the debate for the last half hour or so, I am wondering what I can or cannot say. If I wander from what the Chair thinks I should be saying, I know that he will interrupt me. This debate is about the Government's reason for postponing the local elections this year. It was stated that local elections have been postponed before, and that is true. However, this postponement is for a very different reason. The Coalition are afraid of the outcome. They realise that if the people voiced their opinion on the performance of the Government in the local elections it would be to their detriment. Even though it might not bring about a general election it would damage the Government considerably. That is why they have decided to postpone the elections.
The Minister said they are reforming local government. Have they started? How far have they got? Will they reform it before June 1985? It would take considerably more time than that to have complete reform. In the meantime the people should have their say in the local elections. That is democracy. If we believe in local government and believe it is important, the people should be allowed to voice their opinion and cast a vote in the local elections.
Tonight at seven o'clock Dublin Corporation will move that the estimates for the coming year be adopted. I am certain that they will be passed because Fine Gael and Labour have a majority in Dublin Corporation. This has been so for a number of years. Speaking of democracy and how we should represent the people, it has been the custom for the Lord Mayor of this city to alternate between Fine Gael and Labour each year. Now that they will be there for a further year, I wonder how they will resolve the issue and which party the Lord Mayor will be chosen from. They will have to toss a coin about it. The second largest party in Dublin Corporation, Fianna Fáil, have not had an opportunity of having one of their councillors being made Lord Mayor for a number of years. If the Government held the local elections there would be big changes in every local authority. I disagree with what Deputy Harte said. They would not hold the chairmanship of many of the local authorities. They would lose a vast number of seats and that is the main reason why they are not holding the elections.
The Chair has made it clear that he does not want Deputies to speak about water charges. Included in the corporation's estimates are water charges. Before I came to the House I had a telephone call from a constituent of mine complaining about the dirty, filthy water coming through the water system in her house and asking why she should have to pay water charges when she cannot get a decent pure supply of water. It is extraordinary that we will charge people another water charge for the coming year when the majority were not able to pay the last one. Dublin Corporation only managed to collect £800,000 out of the £3.5 million they needed. How are they going to collect that money this year?
Deputy Harte said it would not make any difference to those on the labour whether there were local elections. It would make a hell of a lot of difference to some of them because the environmental works improvement scheme brought in in 1977, which proved to be a great success and employed many people over the years, will be devastated this year. In 1983 a total of £4.8 million was expended by the corporation under this scheme. This sum was fully recouped by the Government. This year the Government have indicated that an allocation of only £1.6 million will be available to the corporation. The present work force of the environmental works section is 319 and it would require a sum of £3.8 million to retain this number in employment during 1984. The Government allocation of £1.6 million will be fully expended by the end of May. Due to current financial constraints the corporation are not in a position to provide for the continued employment of these men after that date unless additional Government funding is received.
The local government Estimates are down for debate tomorrow. The Deputy would be in order in making a contribution like that tomorrow.
I was replying to a remark Deputy Harte made that it would not matter one bit to those on the labour whether there were local elections. If this is the policy of the Government, it would make a great deal of difference.
There have been cut-backs to the local authorities. They now have to find money which should have been provided by central Government. Over the years we have been providing small community buildings in the Dublin area. In 1984 one single such building will be provided. This is at a time when we have so many young people unemployed and so much hardship in homes with many women under great financial stress. Small community buildings would be an exceptional help in local communities. People would have a place to go to talk to each other, have a cup of coffee and bring their children; but we have not any money for that. The provision of play centres has been almost brought to a standstill.
The Deputy is discussing the Estimate at length.
I will do it tomorrow so. The Government are not calling the local elections because we all know they will lose a great number of seats. It is only fair that the Government give the people an opportunity to voice their opinion. I know the result would not be good as far as the Coalition are concerned and that is why they are afraid to allow the people to cast their votes next June. Deputy Tunney asked them to reconsider their decision but I do not suppose they will at this stage. I hope the same thing does not happen in 1985 if times do not improve and the Government are of the opinion that they will not get a good result in local elections. If that is the case it is on the cards that they will be postponed until 1986, when the Government would be very near a general election.
We are all missing an opportunity to give the people a chance to criticise the Government. Criticism is needed, and it might not do the Government any harm to hear the voice of the people and to realise that their policies, which are causing such drastic unemployment and hardship, are not acceptable. It might do them all the good in the world to hold local elections and perhaps they would come to the conclusion that their policies have to be changed. It will do no good at all to postpone the elections and probably will do them harm. We are restricted to a very narrow debate here but we know why the local elections are not being held. The Government should admit they are not holding them because of fear of the electorate.
I did not intend speaking in this debate but having heard some of the contribution from Government benches I felt I must comment. The Government are very good at lecturing us on this side of the House, telling us to be responsible and not to cause increased difficulties. They do not like us performing our duty as the party in opposition.
I should like to believe the reasons which the Minister for the Environment gave for deferring local elections. Unfortunately, I cannot do so because of events last year when I listened to members of the Government party discussing local elections and whether they would be held. There was divided opinion regarding that issue but it is clear that the Taoiseach's commitment to holding local elections was genuine and sincere. If the local elections had been held on the same day as the European elections it would have ensured the public casting their vote for the Euro candidates at the same time as they were voting for the local government candidate. Unfortunately, events since then changed the minds of some people — perhaps not the Taoiseach's mind — and I refer to the by-election in Dublin. The people there had an opportunity of showing the Government their dissatisfaction with them and they did so in a very efficient way which did not suit the Government, the Labour Party in particular. The result of the Dublin by-election had a very important bearing on the decision of the Minister to defer local elections.
There is need for reform in the area of local government but that does not justify the Government deferring local elections. One would think that because the elections are put off for 12 months or two years everything in the local government area will become very straightforward in a short time. The Minister and the Government have had a number of opportunities to show their genuine concern for reform in local government but they did not do so. Fianna Fáil opposed legislation which was passed last year with regard to local government charges and we asked the Minister and the Government to allow councillors to decide where a charge would be made. We were outvoted on that issue, which is another indication of the hypocrisy of the Minister and the Government, who have tried to pull the wool over our eyes in saying there is no need for local elections.
The Government are appointing assistant secretaries and other civil servants to bodies and boards. This is taking responsibility away from public representatives and those elected by the people. We intend to play our role here and we will not be intimidated by Government speakers who have accused us of being awkward and irresponsible in looking for local elections. We are only seeking the democratic right of the people to elect representatives at local elections as they do in general elections.
Some speakers stated that over the last five years councillors of the Government parties had performed very well and that they had carried out their duties at local government level. I accept that, but I wonder how those same Deputies can vote for the postponement of local elections when on one hand they are saying councillors are doing a good job and on the other that they want elections postponed. It is very clear that the Government are afraid to face the people.
The Taoiseach is on record as asking the people to have confidence in him for our future; yet he lost confidence when he was faced with a decision. Everybody knew that the Taoiseach wanted to hold local elections because it was an opportunity to save expenditure. If there were no Euro elections there might be some justification for deferring them, but the Government could have gone ahead and held the local elections on the same day. The confidence of the people in this Government is at the lowest possible level. It was stated by a speaker opposite that this Government should be praised for their efforts to tackle the problems of the country. The people do not feel the same way.
Before this Government took office they said they would tackle the problems, that there would be no health or education cuts. They were aware of the problems but when they took office they claimed they did not know things were so bad. They were irresponsible in the promises they made. We in Cork were told that Fine Gael would make Cork a force again. I would ask Members to look at the condition of that city. Government indecision and lack of interest in Cork is very clear.
It is the greatest hypocrisy to say that the Government do not want the local elections because they want to carry out reforms. There is gross dissatisfaction among the public regarding the performance of the Government. They should not use side issues as an excuse to defer the elections.
The country faces very real problems which are the responsibility of all of us. Government Deputies should stop saying that we are behaving in an irresponsible manner in using our democratic right to call for local elections. They should look up the statements they made while in Opposition and realise how contradictory their contributions to this debate have been.
I want to deal with three aspects of local government in the context of the postponement of the local elections. There has been a lack of action by the Department of the Environment and the Government in relation to the pollution of Dublin Bay, the ecology movement and the relevance of environment to employment.
Dublin Bay has become an open sewer and year after year it is claimed by the Department of the Environment, Dublin Corporation and the Dublin Port and Docks Board that bathing is safe. It may well be safe in outlying areas such as Skerries, Portmarnock and Malahide but it certainly is not safe at Seapoint, Sandymount or Dollymount where the levels of pollution are very high. It is a tragedy that in a city such as ours we have local authorities who have in some cases ignored the obviously high levels of pollution.
The EEC published Directive No. 76/160 concerning the quality of bathing water and it is to be regretted that the Government have not ratified this excellent document, although it does contain some faults. The directive concerns the quality of bathing water, with the exception of water used for therapeutic purposes and water used in swimming pools.
The motion before us relates to the postponement of the local elections. You are getting into the swimming area and may be getting out of your depth. We will have an Estimate for the Environment tomorrow when those matters would be very relevant. The motion concerns the postponement of the local elections and we should not have a discussion of the problems in the Dublin area. A passing reference would be in order. Perhaps you will speak tomorrow regarding Dublin Bay.
I have a little difficulty in accepting your interpretation of what we are about.
You will have to accept it. With your co-operation we will continue the debate on the postponement of the local elections.
Have Dublin Corporation or Dublin County Council a relevance to this debate?
Local authorities have a relevance to the question of the postponement of the local elections, but the aspects to which the Deputy is referring would be more appropriate to the Estimate for the Department of the Environment or the estimates for Dublin Corporation.
The Government are running away from their responsibilities.
I am not running away from my responsibilities. I am endeavouring to keep the business of the House in order and there is a motion before us on the question of the postponement of the local elections.
Am I not entitled to deal with the business of Dublin Corporation and point out why I believe the Government are running away from their responsibilities?
Some of the matters you have referred to are more relevant to the Estimate for the Department of the Environment which will be taken tomorrow.
How long will that go on?
As long as Deputies wish it. I would be grateful if you would return to the motion.
Dublin Corporation have a responsibility for the ultimate cleanliness of the water and the environment of the city as well as for the general improvement of living conditions of citizens in the city and county. The Government recognise that they have done nothing to improve environmental standards in the Dublin area. Dublin Bay is polluted and the EEC directive has not been ratified by the Minister for the Environment. Consequently the Government have not given Dublin Corporation the authority to carry out their responsibilities.
The Government have postponed a by-election and, even more important, they have postponed the local elections. The people will not be allowed to give their verdict on the issues to which I had intended to refer: the environment, pollution, the ecology movement here and in Europe generally. The Minister's office is in the Custom House which is one of the finest examples of its type. There has been a hoarding around the Custom House in the middle of the city for the past three or four years. Apparently some of the stones in the upper regions of the building are falling down. It is symbolic of this Government that the Department of the Environment are running away from their responsibilities.
The Deputy was in that office.
I was in it very briefly. If I were in it now the hoarding would be gone and the Custom House would be repaired. The Government and the people would be in far better hands.
Talk is cheap.
I am being hindered in what I want to say.
You are being guided, not being hindered.
I accept that. This summer in Dublin Bay we may see a very serious health hazard created by the emission of sewage and by the dumping of garbage at Seapoint. The people recognise this. They see the danger. They regret deeply that the local elections are not being called. The bathing waters in Dublin Bay are becoming increasingly polluted. The beaches are strewn with glass, tin cans and other debris. The physical wellbeing as well as the spiritual wellbeing of the people is affected by this pollution. In the Dublin mountains in my constituency——
The Deputy knows me to be a patient man. He started swimming in Dublin Bay and now he is going up into Dublin mountains. This is a very limited debate. The Deputy is getting into an area which would be more relevant to the Estimate for the Department of the Environment tomorrow. I would be grateful if he would confine himself to the motion before the House.
Will you guide me, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle? What am I allowed to talk about in the context of the postponement of the local elections? Surely the local authorities are relevant to the local elections.
I allowed passing references to those matters but we cannot have a substantial debate on any particular aspect.
I am merely making a point.
A passing reference is allowed.
The local authorities have responsibility in these areas.
I accept that.
They have responsibility in the environment area and in the ecology area.
I have a responsibility to confine the debate to Motion No. 6. I would be grateful for the Deputy's co-operation.
At a time when we have 67,500 people unemployed in Dublin city and county the local elections are being postponed for the obvious reason that the Government know they have no possibility of winning. They have treated the people with contempt. There is a lack of funding for local authorities. There is a lack of acceptance in the Department of the Environment of the various directives which would help and assist the local authorities. It seems quite extraordinary that, at a time when the people need an outlet to point the finger at the Government, they are being forbidden to cast their votes, apart from the European elections. The Government have run from one issue after another. They are afraid. To put it in a Dublin manner, they have funked the issues and, in so doing, they have destroyed whatever credibility they had left after only one year in office.
On the question of the ecology movement, we are far behind the ecology movements in Germany, France and elsewhere. The environment is an issue of major importance. In the local elections we would have had an opportunity to discuss all these issues with the public. Unfortunately that opportunity is being taken away from us. We may not have local elections for three or four years. Judging by the way the Government are behaving, they may find some suitable security reason to suspend the Constitution and not hold a general election. We will then have the ultimate dictatorship. That would be a regrettable and retrograde step.
The Deputy is running away with himself. That is unworthy of the Deputy.
Orwell was running away from himself when he wrote his book.
It is unworthy of the Deputy.
Not after the performance of the Minister for Justice.
Over the past week we have heard things based on the authority of phone calls.
The neo-fascism is coming out now.
Order.
The character of four gardaí was taken away.
The Minister is welcome to his neo-fascist tendencies.
Could we confine ourselves to the motion?
The good name of these gardaí was taken away on the basis of anonymous phone calls.
In Britain they say the Government are falling on banana skins. Here they are falling on orange skins. They are falling on so many orange skins that, if they do not stop, Dublin Bay will be even more polluted. That is to be regretted.
There is a fair bit of political pollution coming from that side of the House today.
There would have been no political pollution if the Government had allowed the voice of the people to be heard. We had a question here yesterday about the trees in Shankill which were being cut down. The Minister for Fisheries and Forestry said it was too late, that he did not know anything about it, and that he had no responsibility for that.
The Fianna Fáil councillors voted for it.
The fact of the matter is that he did have responsibility because it was his inspectors who approved the felling of those trees.
The Deputy should not bring that up now.
Could we get down out of the trees and back to Motion No. 6?
The Deputy made an ass of himself in the House yesterday.
I want to answer the point about Fianna Fáil having proposed this. Fianna Fáil could never get anything through Dublin County Council ——
They proposed and seconded it.
——because Fine Gael control Dublin County Council and have done so for many years. Fine Gael have absolute control of Dublin County Council.
I should like to stress to Members present that the trees have no relevance to the motion under discussion.
We should leave this to the Dublin Members to sort out.
We will not; we will continue with the work of the House in an orderly fashion with the co-operation of all Members.
I find it incredible to hear the Minister of State, a former chairman of Dublin County Council, saying that Fianna Fáil were responsible for this. Fianna Fáil, or one or two members of the party, may have proposed it but they could not have had the motion passed had it not been for the support of Fine Gael and Labour. Deputies opposite should not make any mistake about that.
(Dún Laoghaire): It was on the second occasion that it got through.
To watch Deputy Barrett running for cover on this issue is extraordinary.
(Dún Laoghaire): If I was the Deputy I would stay away from that topic.
I will not because I have represented Shankill for a long time.
(Dún Laoghaire): On the first occasion that a Fianna Fáil member proposed it he could not get a seconder. It was eventually seconded and put to a vote but defeated by a casting vote. The Deputy should check out his facts first.
It was approved by the Minister's inspector and that is to be regretted. We have a great responsibility in this area because local democracy is very important. Local authorities are in a desperate position in regard to finance and the Government are suggesting many ways of dealing with that problem including organising lotteries. I suppose the next thing they will suggest to county councils is that they establish gambling casinos. It is hard to know what the Government will come up with next. They certainly are not in the business of reorganising local authorities. That is not the reason why the local elections are being postponed. In my view those elections are being postponed because the Government rightly fear what the people will decide. They have learned a lesson from the by-election in Dublin Central where Deputy Tom Leonard was returned. He received a massive vote and that amounted to a vote of no confidence in the two Government parties. The electorate in that constituency indicated to the Government in no uncertain manner that they were not wanted and should get out.
However, there is a light at the end of the tunnel in the form of the European elections on 14 June. I have no doubt that in those elections there will be a massive vote of no confidence in the Government. They will get a message to remove themselves from office because of their inept way of managing our affairs. Rarely have we had a Government who have feared the electorate so much and who are afraid to present themselves in a by-election. The Government are aware that the majority Fianna Fáil received in 1977 will be repeated if local elections are held in June. That would mean that the Government parties would lose local authority chairmanships, privileges and perks. They would lose the positions of mayor in major cities, including Dublin. The Government are also aware that a loss in the local elections would mean that they would not have many councillors to vote in the Seanad election. Above all they are aware that they would lose prestige.
The Government have ignored the wishes of the people. Our environment is a mess. Dublin inner city is falling down and little is being done for the people in that area. Directives from the EEC about such work are being ignored and local authority schemes have not been approved. The Government have received a directive from the EEC on the question of bathing places and the quality of bathing water, and local authorities would like to have that directive.
That is not a matter for this motion. The Deputy is raising bathing facilities again but I would prefer if he stayed out of the water altogether. The Deputy should stay on dry land.
I am anxious to refer to the directive on bathing water.
After referring to that earlier the Deputy went to the mountains. Perhaps the Deputy will stay in Leinster House and deal with the motion under discussion.
(Dún Laoghaire): The truth is that the Deputy does not have anything to say. He is aware that it is perfectly correct to postpone the local elections.
I have a lot to say about this matter.
The Deputy should be allowed continue without interruption.
It appears that the Minister of State does not believe that it is right or proper to postpone the local elections. A lot of study has been carried out in the area of local government reform. Many knowledgeable reports are available on that topic that could be put together in a few weeks.
The word reform is an anathema to the Deputy. The Deputy does not know anything about reform.
The Government do not have the courage to face the people in the local elections. In fact, they are avoiding constituency clinics.
(Dún Laoghaire): That is rubbish. We all hold clinics regularly. The Deputy is going down to the tropics too often.
The European candidacy has gone to the Deputy's head.
Is the Minister on the subs list?
People are queueing up in Meath Street to tell the Minister about their problems. It would be wise of the Ministers if they got on the subs list because in June there will be a massive vote of no confidence in the Government.
What happened on the last occasion?
The Government will get a clear message from the electorate because of the way they mismanaged the economy, the finances of local authorities and the affairs of State.
Why is the Deputy running away to Europe?
I am doing so because I believe we can get an enormous contribution from Europe for our local authorities, particularly Dublin city and county.
I hope the Deputy will be more responsible than the last crowd his party sent out to Europe.
On that question I doubt if any Member can name all the MEPs who represented the Labour Party in Europe because they changed so often. It is interesting to recall that MEP Richie Ryan referred to Fianna Fáil continuing with the dual mandate but Fine Gael have allowed some of their people to carry the dual mandate. They made exceptions in the case of Deputy Tom O'Donnell and others and we heard great applause for him and others last Sunday.
I should like to remind Deputies that this is not a city debate. We are dealing with the postponement of local elections.
Government Members should not lecture us about Europe because the performance of their MEPs has been pathetic.
The Deputy would not understand a lecture on Europe.
The performance of Fine Gael and Labour who are opposed to the holding of local elections has been pathetic. The record of the Minister for the Environment, and his Minister of State, has been disastrous. Local authorities have suffered, the building industry has collapsed and employment by local authorities has decreased. The morale of the staff of local authorities is very low because so many people are being laid off. There is no sign of a light at the end of the tunnel. We must be able to tell our young people that there is a future for them.
The Deputy is talking about unemployment and he is looking for a second job. He wants to have two jobs.
The Minister of State is afraid of the people of Meath Street and surrounding areas.
They are decent people.
I accept that but they do not like the Minister of State any more and he is afraid of them. That is one of the reasons why the Government have chickened out on their responsibility to hold local elections this year. The Government are afraid and have demoralised local authorities. They have taken power from such bodies and refused to give them funds to carry out necessary infrastructural work. There is little or no local authority housing.
Deputy, the Estimate for the Environment will be on tomorrow. Would you get away now from the housing——
You should leave it to the Dublinman.
I have no intention, Deputy Connolly, of leaving it to the Dubliner. This is a national question. It is not confined to the city of Dublin. The motion deals with the postponement of local elections.
A Leas-Cheann Comhairle, would you be kind enough to inform me as to the parameters we are allowed in regard to local authorities generally?
If the Deputy reads the motion——
I have read the motion. Are we strictly confined to the motion?
Yes. That is the idea. It is a very narrow debate.
It is a very broad debate. You can deal with every matter affecting local authorities.
That is what I thought. I was under the impression that every matter affecting local authorities was relevant. How long will the Estimate be on tomorrow?
All day.
That is not much time. I have a great deal to say and I am not being allowed to say it because the Leas-Cheann Comhairle has ruled against me. He says the motion is narrow. It is typical——
What is typical?
It is typical that you have ruled in this way because the Government have designed the motion so narrowly. It is a great pity we cannot go into matters in greater depth. It is a pity the Chair has to rule in that way. It is tragic we cannot talk about local authority matters generally.
You can do it tomorrow, Deputy. If the Deputy reads the motion he will appreciate — he says he did read it — there can only be a narrow debate on the motion. The debate is confined and it does not include Dublin Bay or climbing the Dublin Mountains.
I do not know, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle, if you were here when Deputy Harte was speaking, but rarely have I heard a more wide-ranging speech on local authority issues. I am not going to dispute your ruling. Frankly I think all that can be said has been said. The performance of this Government and the dreadful dragging of their feet on all the issues has brought them to a decision collectively or otherwise. I do not know if they do anything collectively because the Taoiseach does not seem to know what the Ministers are doing and Ministers do not know what their colleagues are doing and I think that is one of the reaons why they are running away from the people. It is symptomatic. We had the Mallon phone tapping.
That does not arise.
The Minister did not know what the Taoiseach was doing.
Deputy Andrews, would you please keep to the subject under debate? For a man of your status I am very surprised at you. You know well you may not refer to that matter in this debate. Would you please confine yourself to the postponement of the elections now?
I am trying to show how the Taoiseach has lost control over his Ministers and as a consequence of that he is afraid to allow a debate to take place among the people on the streets, a debate with candidates in local elections. The Government are split. They will be defeated by the people in the local elections. They will be destroyed by the people in the local elections and no amount of half truths, no amount of innuendoes or hints or suggestions about the Government, the Opposition or anybody else will work because the propaganda machine has ground to a halt. It has been discredited and I am glad to stand here and watch its demise. The postponement of the local elections is symptomatic of the fear that machine has in presenting candidates on behalf of Fine Gael or Labour to the people. The Fine Gael people are obviously aware of the position within their own party.
(Interruptions.)
The Deputy might talk to Deputy John Kelly about that or to his Ministers and see which one agrees with what is being done, agrees with what one is doing and the other is not doing. The people over there do not have splits. They have formulas and the formula they have put together has been a disaster for the country and certainly a disaster for the local authorities. It is to be deeply regretted.
The Government have postponed the local elections with a very good reason from their point of view. They have shown themselves to be a failure. I do not think it is unreasonable that they should acknowledge they have been a failure. The reason they have postponed the elections is that they know in their hearts the people want to get at them. They know in their hearts that people are sick to death of them. Basically they have been discredited. That is why they do not want to hold the local elections. We have been the victims of whispering campaigns over the years.
Deputy Andrews, I am inviting you to forget about the whispering campaigns. Would you deal now with motion No. 6. which deals with the postponement of local elections to allow a thorough-going examination of the structure and financing of the local government system to be completed. That is what this motion is about.
(Interruptions.)
Order. Deputy Andrews on Motion No. 6.
I am sorry. I have been a little bit lost because of the rather rowdy Members on the Government benches. The motion is designed to allow a thorough-going review of local government. How many reviews of local government are we going to have before a decision is reached? We have white papers and green papers and every other kind of paper, this paper and that paper, and we have the former Chairman of Dublin County Council and we have the former Lord Mayor of Dublin, and a good Lord Mayor he was, a better Lord Mayor than he was a Minister. You were a very good Lord Mayor and, I have often said it, you were possibly one of the best.
Deputy Andrews, would you confine yourself to the motion now?
And Minister Barrett was a good Chairman of Dublin County Council. He is on the other side of the House from me now and he is probably doing a reasonably good job for his party. He is probably one of the people who should still be chairman of Dublin County Council rather than in here. The people in Shankill and the people in Ballybrack and the people in Dún Laoghaire are chasing him off the streets because they do not want to know him.
Deputy Andrews, I am only interested in maintaining order in the House. Would the Deputy now come to the motion before the House?
I lost my seat because of a whispering campaign and I subsequently topped the poll. I recall the Minister did not get a seat that time. He happily had Mr. Tully remove me from his bailiwick, and then he was safely ensconced. I do not regret that decision at all except that I did lose the people in Ballybrack and Cabinteely and the other side of the Stillorgan Road. Three thousand of those lovely votes made it a little more difficult because they went from me. But I will take them up now in the European election. It seems to me a tragedy that, with all the money, all the work, all the expertise, we will now spend another two years without local authority elections. I will lay a pound to a penny that there will be no election next year because if things go on the way they are going there will not be any country left. The morale of the people will be destroyed if it is not already beyond repair. The people are not prepared to allow their children to grow up in a community that is without hope for them. They will not allow their children to grow up in a community deprived of such basic things as swimming facilities. The Department of Fisheries and Forestry and the local authorities——
The Deputy is back in Dublin Bay again. I ask him to come back to Leinster House.
Dublin and Wicklow County Councils have done a marvellous job in setting out forest walks and they have carried out many worthwhile environmental projects in the Dublin mountains but not a penny more is going into such projects.
I am asking the Deputy again to stay with the motion before the House, which deals with the postponement of the local elections.
It is a pity I have to keep saying this is another reason——
It is a pity I have to keep reminding the Deputy to speak to the motion before the House.
(Dún Laoghaire): Is the Deputy launching his European campaign this evening?
No, I am not, but I am sure the Deputy will give me every assistance. The Government know they will not win the by-election or the European elections. They cannot postpone European elections but if there was any way they could do that they would postpone them. As I said earlier, if they thought they could get away with suspending the Constitution in the matter of Dáil elections they would do so. The Government have taken leave of their senses. They have lost touch with the people and with reality. Rarely in the history of this State have we seen a Government run away from all their responsibilities. They have failed in their duty with regard to local democracy, planning, the environment and housing. The people would like an opportunity to pass judgment on the Government by way of the local elections but the Government are afraid to accept that challenge. Votes would be cast against them in large numbers and that would destroy their morale. The Government have surrounded themselves with an aura of power but the people are waiting for them. They are queueing up to get at them——
(Dún Laoghaire): Does the Deputy think they want Fianna Fáil back in power?
If the local elections were held in June the Government would be wiped out.
(Dún Laoghaire): There is Deputy Lenihan, Deputy Haughey and Deputy Woods all trying to work out who said what.
At least it will not take us three months to sort out who did what. We will not give the wrong papers to different individuals. We will not give false information or reports. We will not assassinate the characters of decent people.
What about the four gardaí last week?
Order. Deputy Andrews on the motion.
The mystery is why the nephew of the Moyna family was dragged into the matter, why that decent family were destroyed——
That does not arise on the motion before the House.
To be fair, it was not the fault of Deputy Andrews. He did not drag it in.
Whoever dragged it in should not have done so.
Who is telling the truth? I believe the Government have engaged in a massive cover-up on that issue.
What about the anonymous phone calls?
Order. Deputy Andrews on the motion, without interruption.
The Government fed the information to somebody whom they knew would accept it. The people opposite raised the matter and I am just dealing with what they said.
It is the only way Fianna Fáil will get back into office. That is why they have made up something like this.
Listening to some of the contributions from the other side of the House I realised many of the speakers knew they were at the end of the road. In my room I heard on the intercom Deputy Harte launching into a vitriolic attack on other speakers because they told the story as it happened. Those speakers spoke of a discredited Government who are running away from their responsibilities, running from the local elections in June because they know the people would give them their comeuppance. They know the local authorities would be taken over by Fianna Fáil, that they would be run properly and that pressure would then be put on the Government to sort out the problems facing the local authorities. The Government know their number is up. They are afraid, and no wonder. They have been incompetent in dealing with local authorities. In Dublin city and county the basic fabric of the environment is collapsing. There are many derelict sites, there is sewage on the doorsteps and the excellent work of the Department of Fisheries and Forestry in regard to the environment has been stopped. Planning permissions have been granted for sites on the sides of beautiful mountains, thus destroying the scenic amenities. What has been happening is a tragedy beyond belief. The Government have not the imagination, the will or the courage to accept their responsibilities.
(Dún Laoghaire): Deputy Connolly should write out a few words for the Deputy.
The recent rent increases ——
This matter will arise on the Estimate debate tomorrow.
What has happened is a scathing indictment of the Government. It is one reason why the Government have decided to run away from the electorate.
Discussions of rent increases and water charges which will arise on the Estimate tomorrow are not in order now.
The lack of amenities and the lack of progress in environmental works are reasons ——
(Dún Laoghaire): The Deputy would make a great ambassador for Ireland in Europe, with all his talk of open sewers and so on.
The Deputy was in Dublin Corporation and now he is in the Government but he has done nothing about the matter.
I ask the Deputies to cease interrupting. I also ask Deputy Andrews not to provoke Deputies.
Of course I would not provoke those lovely, innocent people over there. Then there is the question of local amenities, of parks, programmes for football pitches — all these areas have been abandoned. There is no aid being given. Trees are not being planted ——
Yes they are. That is total nonsense.
How much is being spent on them? It is a fraction of what was intended to be spent on them.
(Dún Laoghaire): The Deputy has been so long out of the country he has lost touch. All these trips are upsetting him.
I will have to insist that there be no interruptions.
I do not know where the Minister of State at the Department of the Taoiseach was last but I know that when he was Chairman of Dublin County Council he was not adverse to taking a little trip abroad when he could get one and I did not see any reports from him such as I have here in regard to my business at the Council of Europe on behalf of the people of this country.
(Interruptions.)
Order, please.
I did not see any reports coming back to Dublin County Council from the Minister of State. I did see some reports that cost the ratepayers of Dublin county ——
(Interruptions.)
I have no objection to those visits at all. The Minister of State is entitled to go and look at other countries and see what they are doing. But when he does go for God's sake come back with some ideas and do something about them.
I hear there are 22 Ministers going off next week to Europe. True or false?
(Interruptions.)
This whole performance might appear funny but it is not in keeping with the dignity of the House.
I accept that, a Cheann Comhairle, but I am being provoked from the other side of the House. I think you would accept that.
I would ask the Deputy to confine himself to the motion before the House and to address the Chair.
Earlier I had hoped to address myself to a number of issues — for example, employment and the environment. I had wanted to report to the House on the results of a colloquy on that issue. I had wanted to talk of safe bathing places, about the level of pollution permissible under a directive which was not accepted ——
The Deputy can spend all day tomorrow at that.
I cannot spend all day tomorrow at it. It is no wonder the House is brought into disrepute when we are confined so narrowly by a Government motion. I had also wanted to refer to the ecology movement in Europe, a report which I presented to the Council of Europe. I have not had that opportunity and deeply regret it. I know that Deputy Connolly is anxious to get in and say a few words.
This Government are discredited, they are running away from their responsibilities but one day these elections will come and I would not vouch for too many of them coming back. I like them personally except one or two ——
Weep for yourselves.
The European elections will be their answer. That is where Fine Gael will meet their Waterloo, when the Battle of Clontarf will take place, because the Government will be positively dealt with by the people from whom they have run away on different occasions and from whom they continue to run away. They continue to portray nonsense and rubbish as something they are doing or are about to do, about something they will not do and have no intention of doing. They continue to talk on televison about the lovely ideas and concepts they have, but they do nothing. It is a "do nothing" Government slipping on orange peels destroying themselves.
The tragedy of that is that in the process they are destroying the people of Ireland and their morale. The people are not afraid to take a look into their hearts and see the necessity for some stern measures, but they are not prepared to be made the victims of public relations activities; they are not prepared to be deceived by them. They see the tragedy of this country amply reflected in the motion before us. It is a total reflection of the failure of this disastrous Government, made up in the main of decent people who unfortunately have not the capacity to undertake the job needed to be done and to utilise our resources for our people. They have had a disastrous first year. I have no doubt but that their ensuing years will be equally disastrous. But hopefully the message will be clearly received from the people that they do not want them any more on June 14, which is the only opportunity they will be given, all the others having been taken from them by this Government. That is the tragedy of local democracy having been swept away for some spurious reason, as if we did not have sufficient ideas on how to reform government. All the people who serve on local authorities know what needs to be done. They go on deputations to this and that Minister telling them, but they have done nothing about it.
(Dún Laoghaire): Why did the Deputy not do something about it?
I could continue for quite some time but I know Deputy Connolly has something to say. However, I might say I am glad I have provoked them — if I have provoked them — into reaction. It is the kind of silly reaction one expects from a Government on the run, from representatives of a Government on the run. All the decent people throughout the country are sick to death of being demoralised by incompetence, lack of expertise——
(Dún Laoghaire): This is one of the Deputy's most inspiring speeches.
——and a lack of willingness to tackle the problems. They have abrogated their responsibilities, they have run away from the people, as they will endeavour to do on every other issue between now and whenever elections are held.
I want to deal with this motion with regard to the postponement of local elections. Always it has been my belief that putting off the evil day is bad because sooner or later one must face up to it. The Government must face up to going before the people in local authority elections in due course. When we were in Government——
They postponed elections at least twice.
I personally did not agree with that.
(Interruptions.)
Deputy Connolly without interruption.
(Dún Laoghaire): Eight times you postponed them.
Chicken, chicken, chicken.
The Dublin Deputies have given their views. I want to say now how I read the position coming from the midlands. Five years ago we could have postponed the local elections. There were many disputes at the time——
They thought they would get away with it.
I intend dealing solely with the motion before the House.
(Interruptions.)
At that time the leader of our party could have postponed that election. But it was my strong view that one must face up to reality, one should not put off the evil day——
(Interruptions.)
If the Minister of State at the Department of the Taoiseach wants to be sarcastic, that is his business; but as far as I am concerned I can stand over anything I say in this House. I might say that never have I run away from anything, whether it was in Laois-Offaly or anywhere else, and I will not run away from my responsibilities. Putting off the evil day is not the issue here. Rather is it the cowardice of the Government to face the public on the real issues.
In 1979 we did the right thing — we tested the people. There were many disputes in those days. We had them in the local authorities and in the Department of Posts and Telegraphs. People did not endorse our policies on any local authority. But I always accept the ballot box.
In my view, local elections will not be held next year. There will be more lovely phraseology, more opportunism. We will be told that the Government are waiting for further submissions from local authorities in regard to reforms. There will be another stalling operation to put off the evil day. Last year we had the Minister for Foreign Affairs saying that the local elections would be held in conjunction with the European election. When the Government came to office they spoke about financial rectitude but it would seem now that has gone out the window. Survival is now the name of the game. They have taken a U-turn. There will be many others and we will be prepared for them.
If the local elections were held coincidentally with the European election the Exchequer would be saved a considerable amount of money. Earlier this year the Taoiseach said he did not want to distract the electorate or, to use more lovely phraseology, he did not want to confuse them by holding the local and European elections coincidentally. Last week he decided to oppose the moving of the write for the Laois/Offaly by-election towards the end of March, and the Minister of State, Deputy Barrett, said the election would be held on 14 June, the day of the European election. That is very confusing. It is all right when it suits in one way but it is all wrong the other way. I want to assure Deputy Dowling that we will treat him extremely well in Laois-Offaly, with courtesy and kindness. The people there will give their information through the ballot box.
The postponement of the local elections means that the electorate are not being given a chance to voice their opinions not alone in regard to members of my party but in regard to Deputy Dowling and others. The people of Laois-Offaly have looked after me for many years and when Deputy Dowling is as long representing those people he can say a little. I have tested the people's opinion at local authority and national level and even when the wind was blowing in my face the people decided I should continue to represent that famous constituency. I am glad the people have honoured me over so many years.
I always like to see a good test, to see how I am doing apart from anything else. You cannot beat the voice of the people who take the pens in their hands on election day and decide. The people are entitled to the opportunity to voice their opinions, especially at local level. There are many grave matters coming up for debate. Offaly County Council have taken very important decisions. The Labour and Fine Gael members of that authority at last month's meeting decided to put 198 workers on short time. They may ask what did I do when I was in O'Connell Bridge House and when the Minister, Deputy Ray Burke, was in the Custom House. I was in O'Connell Bridge House and I had some happy moments there. When I went to that Department I had a look around and very quickly I realised that local authorities were suffering from a serious shortfall of funds because of the previous Government who had underestimated seriously. Subsequently, every week I met representatives of local authorities in the period between April and June. Deputy Burke and I made additional moneys available to maintain employment and to have important works carried out.
What about the abolition of the rates? The Deputy never made up the shortfall then.
The chickens are coming home to roost. If he does not like it he knows what to do. The truth is hurting. When I arrived in the Department the Minister and I appreciated that the Estimates would not meet local authorities' shortfall. I was not a week in the place when I saw that and we were quick to rectify it.
Debate adjourned.