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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 29 Mar 1984

Vol. 349 No. 5

Estimates, 1984. - Vote 41: Communications.

I move:

That a sum not exceeding £125,787,000 (one hundred and twenty five million, seven hundred and eighty seven thousand pounds) be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending 31st December, 1984 for the salaries and expenses of the Office of the Minister for Communications and of certain other services administered by that Office, for a cost alleviation payment and for payment of certain grants and grants-in-aid.

I welcome the opportunity to open the first debate on the Estimate for the Department of Communications. I wish to express my gratitude to the Opposition for facilitating the taking of this debate today at short notice. This arose notwithstanding an enabling section in the Postal and Telecommunications Services Act, 1983, because of doubts — in view of the fact that we are a new Department — whether sufficient authority existed for the expenditure of funds. It was felt proper that we should have the Estimate passed before the end of this month.

These Estimates are being discussed against the background of economic recovery in Europe and the United States. Indeed, the recovery in the United States is now well-established. From its low point at the end of 1982, the US economy expanded by 3½ per cent in 1983. This compares with an average growth of over 2 per cent in the OECD area as a whole. Economic activity in the EEC was somewhat subdued with output growing by only 1½ per cent in 1983.

Foreign trade — on which this country depends vitally and to a much greater extent than many other industrialised market economies — also started to resume growth last year. As measured by trade between the OECD countries, there was an estimated volume growth of almost 5 per cent last year, as compared with little or no growth in volume in 1982.

The outlook for the international economy is certainly more favourable now that it has been for some years. However, there are good reasons for introducing an element of caution into our expectations. Uncertainties still surround the strength and durability of world economic recovery. I need only refer to the persistence of high real interest rates in the United States, the uncertainty stemming from the debt problems of the less developed countries and the increase in protectionist measures worldwide. This confirms the importance of policy-makers internationally co-ordinating policies in such a way as to reduce the uncertainties and to strengthen and broaden the economic recovery. On the home front, we will continue to pursue policies, as confirmed by the budget measures, to enable the economy to benefit to the maximum extent from a recovery in the international markets.

Up to now the recovery in the world economy has been neither strong enough nor sufficiently broadly based to contribute significantly to growth in the Irish economy, but there are some encouraging signs. In case those economists, whose models are oiled with pessimism, have their eyes closed, let me refer to a few of those signs. The volume of exports of goods and services is estimated to have grown by about 10½ per cent last year, compared with 4 per cent in 1982. Even more significantly, industrial exports increased by about 14 per cent reflecting to a large extent the strength of the electronics and chemicals sector. Underpinning the exports growth we had an expansion of over 7 per cent in the volume of manufacturing output last year.

I am not suggesting that the trumpets should be blown too loudly about the positive developments in our economy, but I do wish Deputies to be made aware of definite encouraging features that are appearing on the economic front. There is still a long way to go before our public finance problems are solved or before the economy can be said to be truly on the path of growth in terms of employment and output.

While the size of the budget deficit and the level of Exchequer borrowing tend to capture the spotlight, the steps taken to ensure the efficient use of our resources and productive capability will have to continue to be a very important feature of economic policy. The rate at which the economy can expand depends on the productive resources and on the efficiency with which they are used. Large demands will continue to be placed on our resources in the future. In order to respond to these demands, today's decisions must be formulated to foster tomorrow's productivity of the country's resources. It is in this general economic context that these Estimates are introduced.

This is the first Estimate for the Department of Communications which was established on 2 January 1984, under the Ministers and Secretaries (Amendment) Act, 1983. The Estimate is comprised of the charges in respect of the Office of the Minister for Transport and the residual element of the Office of the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs both of which were abolished following the reorganisation of the postal and telecommunications services with effect from 1 January, 1984, under the Postal and Telecommunications Services Act, 1983.

Because this is the first Estimate for the new Department it is difficult to provide meaningful comparisons of estimated expenditure in 1984 as compared with the provisional 1983 outturn under a number of subheads. However, if Deputies are interested I would refer them to the addendum in green at the back of the Volume of Revised Estimates for Public Services, 1984. The addendum sets out separately the position of the former Votes for Transport and for Posts and Telegraphs which have been included in the new Communications Vote.

The taking-over of the postal and telecommunications services was, as Deputies generally are aware, a major undertaking and was the biggest single change in the Civil Service since the foundation of the State, transferring half of the staff out of the Civil Service into the State-sponsored sector. Change naturally involves some fear but I am happy to place on record that the staff generally and the unions and associations representing them were mature enough to recognise that the change was in their own long-term interests as well as that of the services they provide and, given certain legislative guarantees in relation to their terms and conditions of service, was accepted by them as such. I wish the two new companies, and all who work in them, well.

The decision to establish the new State-sponsored bodies was taken against a background where the services were in bad shape following industrial action and, in the case of the telecommunications service, under-investment over a long period. The Post Office Review Group had recommended that these commercial services should be given the freedom to develop by organising them as State-sponsored bodies. The evidence so far since the two new bodies took over control on 1 January leaves no real room for doubt that the decision taken was the correct one. I am greatly heartened by the refreshing approach to the services adopted by the two boards. I need refer only to the "penny post" and the St. Patrick's Day cards by An Post, and the lower call charges over the St. Patrick's Day week-end, the changes in connection charges, and the lower telex charges introduced by Bord Telecom Éireann. I believe that, just as intended, new life is being breathed into the new services, and I am looking forward to other initiatives by the two companies designed to improve service to the customer.

These services are major undertakings and to change attitudes and make a substantial impact on the services provided will, necessarily, take time. Changes and improvements will come only gradually but I am confident that they will materialise. I make this point about time being needed because I am aware, for example, that some telephone subscribers expect the quality of service, whether it be by way of speedier repairs or provision of service more quickly, to be improved overnight. This is not a realistic expectation in the short term although, as I have said, I have every confidence that the improvements will come as quickly as they can be expected realistically.

I am sure too that the boards and staff of the two new companies are themselves impatient that they cannot accomplish immediately as much as they know needs to be done to satisfy their customers.

The quality of the postal service in this country has traditionally been high. In the aftermath of the 1979 strike the quality dropped but I am happy to say that it was restored over the course of 1983 to its previous high standard. The target is to deliver 90 per cent of letters within the country on the following working day. That target was reached generally in the second half of last year. The balance of 10 per cent could not be delivered within that time scale because transport connections would not allow of this. The quality of the parcel service too was, in general, satisfactory. In so far as the quality of the postal service is concerned, therefore, the aim must be to build on what has already been achieved and to give the public a reliable, good quality service. Reliability is as important as speed, and users of the services need reasonable assurance that delivery will be made in the time expected.

The charges for postal services here are high by international standards. It must be a continuing priority to make the charges here more competitive. Over 80 per cent of postal costs are in respect of pay and related charges. Pay costs have escalated over the period since 1979 due largely to the high rates of inflation in this country — substantially higher than in most European countries. This, and the low volume of posting per head of population, are the primary reasons for postal charges here not being competitive. This trend can be reversed, as it must be, only by moderation in pay rates and by increasing the volume of mail handled. Pay increases must take into account what the service can bear and what is in the overall interests of the service.

I know that An Post are acutely conscious of the need to market their services and on the basis of the evidence so far, I am confident that An Post will be successful in this. Some may be under the impression that with developments in technology, the postal service will inevitably go into decline. Experience in the UK and the USA do not bear out this and there has been a modest but continuing growth in postal traffic in those countries. This growth will not, of course, come of itself; it will need active encouragement in the form of imaginative marketing, and giving the public the type of services they require. This includes the introduction of new services of which a number have been introduced in recent years such as the surface air lifted parcel service to the USA and Canada, the postbus, a limited express mail service and publicity post service, which was provided experimentally for some users last year. The extension of these is, I know, in the pipeline by An Post.

As I have said, our postage rates are too high. I am particularly pleased that I have been able to resist successfully any price increase since I came to office. This means that for two full years there has been no price increase and I am happy to say that none is planned in the immediate future. This policy has helped to reverse the downward trend in postage volumes in preceding years. However, with pay costs rising faster than traffic growth, charges cannot be maintained at their existing level indefinitely unless traffic can be boosted greatly. This is the task facing Mr. Feargal Quinn and the board and I think it right that I should warmly praise the breath of fresh air that they have brought to the postal business.

The Post Office Review Group in their report in 1979 described the telecommunications services as being in a state of crisis. The accelerated five-year telephone development programme was undertaken to rectify that position. I do not propose to comment in detail on all aspects of the service. Deputies generally will have their own experience of the standard of service, and this varies very much between areas. The objective of the current programme was to bring the standard of service up to the level in other EEC countries in terms of quality and availability by the end of the five-year period and it was recognised that at least five years would be needed to achieve this.

In practice, telephones are now readily available over much of the country, the quality of the automatic service is greatly improved and an acceptable repair service is being given. Dublin is the major exception to this. The main reason Dublin has lagged behind was difficulty in getting accommodation for exchange equipment and for staff. It took longer to secure the accommodation needed in Dublin than it did elsewhere and as a result the new telephone exchanges could not be installed and the additional staff needed recruited. The necessary exchanges are now coming on stream and the staff have been recruited and have been gaining the necessary skill and experience.

Bord Telecom Éireann envisage that the waiting list for telephones in Dublin will be largely eliminated within the next 12 months and, in the meantime, priority will be given to telephones needed for business purposes. Substantial progress has been made in improving the reliability of underground cables in Dublin by means of pressurisation, a programme for which has been in train for some time and by devoting substantial effort to preventive maintenance and to the replacement of life-expired cables. These actions are producing results. The time taken to restore service has been greatly reduced and while it is not yet up to the target set for the end of the five-year programme period, the position continues to improve.

Another target of the development programme was that the speed of answering by operators in telephone exchanges should be greatly improved to a point where 90 per cent of callers would be answered in ten seconds. This target has been largely achieved.

The two main targets of the telecommunications services must be to raise the quality of the services and to make its charges more competitive by international standards. I am satisfied that the targets in relation to the quality of the services will be reached reasonably soon — perhaps not as quickly as we all would like, but they are clearly in sight.

Having the charges more competitive will be a much more difficult task and will be achieved only over quite a long period. Charges here are high because the massive investment involved in the current five-year development programme took place at a time when costs were escalating rapidly due to inflation and when interest rates were at a very high level. This put the services here at a serious disadvantage compared with other countries where investment took place more evenly over a long period of years when costs of development were only a fraction of what they were in recent years and when borrowing rates were very much less than they were here over the last few years. The services here were at the further disadvantage that because of the system of financing of the services all the capital required had to be borrowed. Finally, a prime requirement of the development programme was investment in the infrastructure of the services in terms of buildings and equipment and it will take time before all of that investment becomes fully productive. Nonetheless, telecommunications charges have not been increased this year and no increase is envisaged in the immediate future.

The major task facing Bord Telecom Éireann is to improve the cost effectiveness of the services. This will involve maximising the use made of the system by connecting the maximum number of subscribers, increasing traffic volumes, tailoring further investment as closely as possible to short-term needs and improving staff efficiency. I believe that some improvements in cost effectiveness will come readily enough as the spare capacity in the network is used up, but more than this will be needed. I know that Bord Telecom Éireann are fully conscious of the need to improve their costeffectiveness and that they are addressing this problem urgently. Here again, however, we must be realistic and accept that dramatic improvements will not come overnight. There is a long, painstaking road ahead and the financial problems facing the telecommunications services will not be readily resolved.

Deputies will probably have seen from the Book of Estimates that no provision is made in the current year for financing of telephone capital developments. The reason for this is that Bord Telecom Éireann are expected to finance these directly from internally generated revenue and by borrowing directly. The legislation establishing the board made provision for the guarantee of borrowing for telephone capital purposes by the Minister for Finance but I would hope that, in practice, the board will be able to raise the money they require without such guarantees. Provision of £180 million is made in the Public Capital Programme for the current year for continuing the telephone development programme, which Bord Telecom Éireann themselves will finance. The expectation is that after the current year, capital spending should taper off.

As my remit in relation to the services does not extend to their day-to-day operations, I propose to confine my remaining comments on the services to some aspects which may be of general interest or concern. This country's international services have been provided over the years by means of cables in which the Department leased circuits or in which the Department took shares. Since the sixties, requirements have been met in part by circuits leased in satellites. These satellite circuits were routed through an earth station in Britain. With growth in international traffic, the provision of an earth station here is now justified and it is expected that the earth station being installed at a site near Midleton, County Cork, will be ready for operation within the next two months. This station will handle traffic for much of the American Continent and, for the first time, will give this country access to some other countries without being dependent on the intervention of third countries. This is clearly a desirable step forward. With the provision of European satellites in which this country has taken a share, it will be possible to increase further over the years this country's independence in meeting its international telecommunications needs. I will refer again to this later.

I propose to refer briefly now to two aspects of the telecommunications services which have been the subject of public comment recently. The first of these is telephone billing. I was conscious for quite some time that there was a perception on the part of some users that the telephone billing system for metered calls was unreliable. I would like first to explain that every subscriber connected to an automatic exchange has an individual meter at the local exchange on which calls made by him or her are recorded. Nobody else can have calls recorded on that meter. Those meters are, I am assured, of a kind used internationally and are highly reliable. Nevertheless, because of the volume of complaints reaching me and of the perception by some users that the system was unreliable, I arranged to have an independent examination of the billing system undertaken by a reputable firm of international telecommunications consultants. Their report has now been received. Having carried out on-the-spot examinations of the equipment used, maintenance procedures and the system used for billing calls, the consultants' conclusion is that the system employed here for billing of metered telephone calls is fully up to international standards. The consultants have noted, however, that the level of queries here is many times higher than in other countries. So clearly there remains a serious problem of perception.

I should say that I can appreciate that a system whereby calls are recorded on a meter to which a user has not access on a continuing basis to check the number of units recorded may not be fully satisfactory to some subscribers, although this is the general position internationally. To meet that, meters which subscribers can have installed in their own homes have been available for renting for some time past. I understand, too, that Bord Telecom Éireann are considering the supply of details of trunk calls made over the automatic system. This will involve the installation of additional equipment which is quite costly and those seeking the details will have to pay the extra costs involved. I see both of these measures as meeting reasonably the concern of those who want to check their metered call usage.

There was some public comment recently on delay on the part of the Department in occupying buildings. It is reasonable that this should be the subject of public comment. I regret very much any discourtesy which may be felt by the Committee of Public Accounts because of recent events, and I feel sure that there will not be a repetition.

The telephone development programme involved, in all, the provision of some 500 buildings, primarily for telephone exchanges and associated transmission equipment, but also for staff. The first requirement for progress in improving the telephone service was the availability of buildings. I have referred to the fact that problems in getting buildings in the Dublin area have been the main cause of progress in Dublin being slower than elsewhere. Indeed, I understand that experience over the years was that the non-availability of sites and buildings was the greatest single impediment in bringing about improvements in service when funds for projects became available. In the light of this experience, it was decided, on the launching of the accelerated telephone development programme, that an all-out effort would be made to secure sites and buildings as a first priority.

It was recognised that in so doing, buildings would become available in some cases before equipment was ready for installation or before staff could be moved into them, but going ahead with securing buildings as quickly as that could be done was an essential step if the programme was to be carried through on target. The Post Office Review Group accepted that the programme could be completed in five years only if quite exceptional action was taken. The decision by the Department, therefore, to make progress wherever it could in the provision of buildings so that they would be available when other parts of the programme fell into place was a reasonable one. If that were not done, the improvements in the telephone service that have been made could not have been secured.

It was inevitable in this approach that some buildings would not be occupied when they became available, although every effort was made to ensure that they were used as soon as they became available and the great majority of them were. Also, it was essential that where a need was foreseen for a building in a strategic area, the site or the building was acquired when it came on the market on the basis that if it were not acquired then, a suitable site or building might not be available later, when needed, resulting in delay in the provision of service for waiting applicants, including industrialists, or in the improvement of service where it was less than satisfactory.

Finally, the telephone development programme undertaken was perhaps the single biggest programme undertaken in the history of this State. That it is being carried through largely on schedule to what was recognised as a very tight deadline and at a time when the Department were also under pressure to prepare for the change-over to State-sponsored status was a remarkable achievement. I would hope that that accomplishment would not be over-shadowed by criticism, quite legitimate and understandable in itself, of the small number of buildings that were not utilised to maximum advantage.

I feel it appropriate here to say what a pity it would be if the fact that there are some grounds for criticism were allowed to diminish the magnitude of the task that has been accomplished. Embracing as it did the launching and carrying through broadly on target of the massive accelerated telecommunications development programme involving huge capital expenditure, the separation of two major services employing nearly 30,000 people from the Civil Service, the taking on board of new developments such as satellites and the restoration of the postal services to their former high standard, the astonishing thing is that it was all done so smoothly. I would like to pay tribute to my predecessors in office, the staff of the Department and the boards of the two companies for a truly remarkable achievement. So far, I do not think nearly enough credit has been given for what has been achieved.

Before I pass from telecommunications I want to refer to information technology. It is widely forecast that the explosion in information technology of which we are now witnessing the beginning, will bring about a revolution greater even than the industrial revolution of the 18th and 19th centuries. Not only will massive data banks be made easily available to business, commerce, agriculture, the universities and other institutions but the ordinary citizen will have easy access in his home to a wide range of information not readily obtainable today except by recourse to reference works or specialist advisers.

A variety of means will be used to enable the information to be made available. Apart from the computer itself, with its own data bank, information will be provided by the use of the public telecommunications network, of special networks dedicated to the exchange of data, of the cable networks provided initially for television, and over the air by the use of broadcast techniques. It is important that Ireland be well placed to take advantage of this impending revolution with all that it offers in terms of employment and export opportunities as well as in the quality of life of our citizens.

I particularly welcome in this connection the proposed inauguration by Bord Telecom Éireann later this year of a dedicated data network, and later I shall be mentioning the possibilities offered by Ireland's prospective participation in satellite broadcasting. Telecommunications will be the main carrier of most of the information technology and digital techniques offer many advantages over other types in facilitating this development. The fact that digital technology is used in most of the telephone exchanges and transmission systems installed in this country over the last few years makes this country an ideal location for industries engaged in information technology. Efforts are being directed at present to ensuring that this country will benefit to the maximum extent from this.

The earliest development, and in many ways the most exciting in broadcasting is likely to occur in local radio services. It is my intention to bring the necessary legislation for this development before the Oireachtas very shortly. Deputies will be aware that the Government published their legislative proposals last year and submitted them to the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Legislation. The proposals were the first matter to be considered by that new committee and the subject proved a very suitable one. The committee received a very wide range of submissions from individuals and interested organisations in relation to the proposals. These submissions provided a searching analysis of many aspects of the proposals, dealing both with the philosophy underlying the proposed developments and the practical nature of them. I am confident that the committee's work will provide an excellent grounding on which to base the forthcoming discussion on the Bill itself.

I think it is fair to say that there was broad agreement with the general intent of the Government proposals. There was, of course, disagreement with some particular aspects and many suggestions for improvement of the proposals. The text of the Bill is now being finalised taking the various suggestions made into consideration. I am confident that the positive approach which characterised the work of the committee will also be evident in that debate.

The basis of the Government's proposals for local radio services will be the creation of a framework for the development of those services throughout the country. It is intended that the Local Radio Authority should decide the areas which local radio services will serve and how many stations there will be, will select those most suitable to provide the services and will subsequently exercise general oversight and regulation of the services in the public interest. The legislation will not attempt to impose a uniform type of local radio service throughout the country. It is likely instead that the structure of local radio will differ from one area to another reflecting the nature of the local community. The legislation will confine itself to setting general guidelines and criteria which all stations will be expected to meet and which the authority will be expected to oversee. Reserve powers retained by the Minister or the Government will be few and will be limited to what is essential in the public interest.

There has been some debate recently on the likely number of local radio stations. I must emphasise that this will largely be a matter for the authority. However, if the population criteria used by the IBA in Britain were to be used here we would have a rather small number of stations. If IBA technical standards were to be used these would impose additional costs in setting up and running stations. The question will arise as to whether the standards of the IBA are too high or whether quality will be sacrificed to some extent for quantity. I have no doubt that this debate will go on for some time to come. In addition to the legislation to provide for local radio services the Government will be introducing about the same time legislation to deal effectively with the problems caused by illegal radio stations and others who abuse the radio spectrum, as well as increasing fines for TV licence evasion. The activities of unlicensed broadcasters have created a growing menace in recent years. Aircraft, shipping and emergency services have all been subject to interference. Some illegal broadcasters have displayed a most serious disregard for the effects of their actions or an astonishing degree of incompetence in their activities. There is an urgent responsibility to bring such activity to an early end.

In recent times a few pirate radio stations have claimed that their transmissions have been interfered with. I am not particularly sympathetic to these stations' claims. The fact is that they are themselves operating illegally. However, I also want to make it clear that I have not approved and do not intend to approve, of jamming of radio signals. The Government are determined that the problems of illegal radio will be resolved in a proper way through legislative action at an early date and that is my prime target.

In the past year international negotiations were concluded for additional VHF broadcasting frequencies for radio. VHF broadcasting services operate under a plan drawn up in Stockholm in 1961. Under this plan Ireland had sufficient frequency assignments to operate two national VHF networks. RTE has used one of these networks for RTE Radio 2 and the second network is shared between Raidio na Gaeltachta, for which it was originally provided, and Radio 1. This latter arrangement was unsatisfactory, particularly in areas in the south, west and north of the country where medium wave reception of Radio 1 is not entirely satisfactory. It has also been unsatisfactory that the high quality stereo signals possible on VHF have not been available for Radio 1 throughout the day. Efforts over the years to obtain additional VHF frequencies so that Radio 1 could be broadcast full time on that band were unsuccessful because of difficulties in reaching international agreements.

I am glad to announce that these difficulties have been overcome in recent months by planning efforts and negotiations conducted by my Department with the assistance of RTE. As a result, sufficient VHF frequencies are now available for a third national VHF network and these frequencies will be usable according as equipment is provided and as changes are made in some existing transmitters here and in Britain. I will be licensing RTE to proceed with the provision of transmitters for this third VHF network over the next two years or so. RTE propose to bring the third frequency into use at Mullaghanish in Cork very shortly. RTE Radio 1 will then be available on VHF throughout the day in the service area of that transmitter, parts of which suffer from poor medium wave reception of that service. RTE will be proceeding with the provision of new VHF transmitters for the third service at other sites later as their resources permit.

Nuair a thosnófar ag baint úsáide as an tríú chóras san árd-mhinicíocht, bheadh Raidio na Gaeltachta in ann, ó thaobh teicniúla de, craoladh ar feadh breis aimsire gach lá gan cur isteach ar Radio a h-aon. Ar ndóigh, is ceist le réiteach ag RTE sa chéad dul síos an leathnófar uaireanta craolachán Raidio na Gaeltachta agus is cosúil go mbraithfidh an freagra ar cad a chosnódh san. Tuigim go bhfuil beartaithe ag RTE craoladh ar feadh breis ama ó Raidio na Gaeltachta a túisce agus is féidir san a dhéanamh ó thaobh airgid de agus go bhfuil sé mar chuspóir acu craoladh i rith an lae ar fad níos déanaí nuair a bheidh dóthain airgid dó san ar fáil.

'Sé Raidio na Gaeltachta Raidio a trí i ngach rud ach amháin in ainm. Is ceart a cheistiú an mbeadh sé chun leas na Gaeilge Raidio na Gaeltachta a fhorbairt agus stáisiún fíor náisiúnta a dhéanamh de. Chuige sin, caithfí craoladh ar feadh an lae ar fad agus cláracha go mbeadh ábhair spéisiúla náisiúnta agus idirnáisiúnta á gcraoladh i dtreo go mbeadh suim ag pobal uile na tíre iontu chomh maith le muintir na Gaeltachta. B'fhéidir i dteannta leis sin go mba chóir an stáisiún a ath-ainmniú Raidio a trí, Raidio lán Ghaelach.

RTE also have made a proposal to establish a fourth radio service probably using a long wave frequency allocated to Ireland under an international plan drawn up in 1975. Such a service would be receivable over much of Britain as well as in Ireland. The RTE proposal is essentially for a commercial service of popular music for which RTE believes there is considerable advertising market particularly in Britain. The proposal gives rise to a number of questions which will need detailed consideration. Clearly any proposal which would improve RTE's financial position is to be welcomed and if the proposal for commercial radio service is soundly based financially it should obviously be supported. A detailed examination is proceeding to establish the prospects for a service on the lines suggested by RTE and, depending on the outcome of this examination, a decision on the proposal will be made by the Government in due course. I am personally attracted to the idea of an Irish Radio service receivable throughout these islands and I am positively encouraging the necessary research.

The development of satellites is another exciting area. My predecessor, Deputy John Wilson, formed a committee in November, 1982 to establish what advantages and benefits might accrue to Ireland from pending developments in satellite services. I pay tribute here to the foresight of Deputy Wilson in establishing this committee and to its members for the excellent work they did in producing a comprehensive report in a little over six months. That report enabled the Government to decide within a short space of time that proposals for the provision, on a concessionary basis, of an Irish Satellite Network and an Irish direct broadcasting by satellite service, generally referred to as DBS, should be sought. The satellite system to be provided is also to have some telecommunications capacity. Proposals on these lines were invited in November last from various groups and organisations in Ireland and internationally. The invitation documentation issued to 40 organisations who were asked to submit outline proposals by 29 February, 1984; final proposals are due by 31 July, 1984. A number of those invited have indicated that they do not intend to make proposals but the majority have a continuing interest. Various organisations combined to make nine outline proposals by the set date of 29 February last; three of these outline proposals came from Irish groups.

The interest expressed in the satellite project indicates the potential which satellite broadcasting represents for the development of new forms of broadcasting service. It is now recognised that these developments will supersede the limitations in broadcasting imposed by national boundaries up to now. Although DBS services are still primarily designed for reception in the country of origin, technical overspill will inevitably extend the area of coverage beyond national boundaries. Thus an Irish DBS service could have a potential audience of up to one hundred million people.

A number of European countries have announced decisions on DBS services in recent years. Britain, France, Germany and Sweden are among the countries that have plans to establish such services. There have recently been indications that the time scale for introduction of the services may have slipped in some cases but there is no doubt about the continuing interest throughout Europe in the potential which DBS offers. Satellite broadcasting is of course very costly and there is an element of risk associated with the development because new receiving equipment will be needed by those who wish to view DBS services. At this stage therefore the Government have taken the view that the potential and opportunities offered by satellite broadcasting should be assessed by means of the invitation of proposals as I have outlined.

The aim of the Government's actions in this area is to derive the maximum national benefit from the valuable resource which the satellite broadcasting frequencies available to this country represent. Proposers have been asked to say what financial contributions they would make in return for the use of these valuable assets and what other benefits they would offer, for example, in the creation of employment in this country, the transfer of technology and so on. Beyond specifying that any service must operate in accordance with the Geneva 1977 Plan for DBS services, the Government have not set down any regulatory framework at this stage for DBS services. It is open to proposers to make any suggestions they wish in relation to this but it can be taken that, if a DBS service is to proceed, the Government would intend to exercise oversight of it to the degree that is practicable. These and other questions will be addressed according as the project develops. The Government consideration of satellites is not confined to this project alone. The whole area of satellites abounds with exciting possibilities and this country is well placed to participate fully in these. We are particularly well placed geographically and what is often seen by many as a problem — the large number of young people in our population — could be a very exciting advantage.

Cable television services are frequently referred to in the context of satellite developments. There is likely to be a growing inter-relationship between these two means of communications which are sometimes thought to be competitive rather than complementary. A review of developments internationally suggests that satellite television services will provide a range of new programming for relay on cable systems and also that cable systems will give a more ready access for satellite television operators to larger numbers of television viewers than would otherwise be available in the next few years. Thus the development of each service could benefit the other.

Cable television services in Ireland have achieved a relatively high penetration through relaying foreign broadcast services to urban areas. The newer cable systems which have been installed in the past few years in cities such as Cork, Limerick and Galway, have the capacity to relay many additional channels. The somewhat older systems in Dublin and elsewhere may require investment to upgrade them to cater for new services which will become available for relaying in coming years. The question arises as to what arrangements should be made to achieve the best return in the national interest from this new investment. It is also appropriate to review at this stage the regulatory regime which applies to cable systems to see if it can be improved on. For this reason, I recently appointed a cable systems committee consisting of suitable people drawn from the public and private sectors, under the chairmanship of Mrs. Margaret Downes, to examine these problems. The committee's task is to consider and recommend a national strategy for the development of cable systems. I understand that the committee have already advanced their work and that they hope to submit their report before the end of the year. I am confident that this will be a valuable contribution to the management of the communications revolution which has now enveloped us.

The 1984 Estimates for my Department also include a number of provisions for traffic management activities in the Dublin area, all of which are geared towards improving traffic conditions in general and bus operations in particular. The Dublin Transportation Task Force who operate under the aegis of my Department have brought in bus priority schemes on a wide scale throughout Dublin in recent years and a capital provision of £400,000 in my Department's Estimates will enable further bus priorities to be implemented this year.

To date, the most visible result of the work of the task force has been the bus lanes. These, together with the new Bombardier buses have gone a long way towards improving the quality and reliability of Dubin city bus services. However, the scope for further bus lanes is diminishing and, while there will be some additional bus lanes later this year, the main emphasis will be directed towards more sophisticated measures. In the current year, for example, the task force plan to commence implementation of a system known as selective bus detection which, by using advanced electronic techniques, will enable buses to be given special priority at signalised junctions.

The current year will also see the virtual completion of a system known as urban traffic control, or UTC which involves the computerised co-ordination of traffic signals in the city centre, the objective of which is to improve traffic conditions by reducing vehicle stop/starts. The UTC system is being financed from the £400,000 capital allocation mentioned earlier. There is also provision in my Department's Estimates for the development of a computer based traffic management model for the Dublin area. The model will be completed this year and will be used by traffic engineers in the design and analysis of traffic management schemes.

Given the general budgetary situation and its implications for major roads and public transport investment, it is likely that for the present we will be relying heavily on traffic management to make the optimum use of our existing road infrastructure. One major public transport scheme, on which I have spoken at some length on a number of occasions recently, will be coming on stream in the current year, that is, the Howth-Bray electrification project. Work on the project is now virtually complete and I expect some electric services to commence in the near future.

I am fully committed to reforming transport administration in Dublin but I am also conscious of the need to ensure that any such reform does not conflict with reforms in local authority structures in Dublin city and county which may emerge from the review of local government currently being undertaken by the Minister for the Environment. I am, therefore, currently reviewing proposals in relation to the Dublin Transport Authority. The Estimate includes provision for a £100,000 grant-in-aid for the authority in 1984.

A subject which has been raised at the Dublin Transportation Task Force by CIE is the question of access to the Phoenix Park for peak period buses from the greater Blanchardstown area. As this is in my own constituency I have a particular interest in the matter and indeed I have communicated with my constituents on the question. Clearly, apart from transport needs environmental considerations must be taken into account by the Office of Public Works who are responsible for the park. As the Phoenix Park is a national amenity wider views will have to be taken into account. Whether we can continue to discriminate against the public transport user in this area compared to the private motorist is an awkward question which some might like to avoid but which I am glad to pose.

The most recent development in relation to the road freight industry is the acceptance by the Government earlier this year of the main recommendations of the Report of the Transport Consultative Commission. I am having the necessary legislation prepared and hope to have it introduced later this year. This legislation will provide for the grant of general haulage licences initially to all existing licensed hauliers, including those holding limited licences, and to all qualified operators in the present exempted areas, that is to say, areas within a specified radius of Dublin, Cork, Waterford, Limerick and Galway. These licences will be unrestricted as to type of goods carried or number of vehicles used and the exempted areas will be abolished. Two years later licences will be granted to all applicants, including own account operators, who satisfy the EEC requirements of good repute, sound financial standing and professional competence for access to the profession of road haulier.

Liberalisation of the road freight industry has been long overdue and I think there will be general satisfaction that the process which was started in 1971 is now being completed. I am confident that the removal of quantitative restrictions will have beneficial effects for both the industry and the economy as a whole. I will come back to surface transport matters when dealing with the finances of CIE.

As Minister for Communications I am also responsible for our external transport links, the efficient operation of which is very important to this country; all the more so because of our island location on the periphery of Europe and our higher than average dependence on international trade and tourism. Access transport requires both the physical infrastructure of harbours and airports, together with the mobile assets — ships and aircraft — of the companies which use the physical infrastructure. There is no doubt that improvements in access transport can only increase the attractiveness of Ireland as a location for industry, commerce and tourism. Accordingly, the necessity for adequate and efficient transport facilities is an important consideration in the policies pursued by my Department and in the formulation of the Communications Vote.

The B & I have been in a loss-making situation since 1979. The company's losses amounted to £8.2 million in 1981 and £8.6 million in 1982. The B & I accounts for 1983 have not yet been published but I understand that substantial losses were incurred in that year also. The company received over £20 million equity for working capital since the beginning of 1981. The Government are seriously concerned at the level of losses being incurred and the increasing support which the Exchequer has been obliged to provide. The company's difficulties can, to a considerable extent, be traced to the effects of the recession and the downturn in the tourist trade. The financial position of the company and the means available to enable a return to commercial viability as soon as possible are under examination. I will be making a submission in the matter to the Government at an early date.

Irish Shipping Limited have also been experiencing serious financial difficulties stemming from the collapse of the deep sea freight market. The deep sea sector of the company's operations has been in very serious difficulties for some time. Up to 31 March 1982 it had been possible to offset losses in the deep sea sector from the company's ancillary activities. The decline in world freight rates has, however, reached such depths that the company are now in an overall serious loss situation. Irish Shipping Limited incurred a loss of £14 million in the year ended 31 March 1983 and even more substantial losses are forecast for the current financial year.

The company have, however, succeeded in negotiating a restructuring of their financial commitments which will substantially reduce their cash problems for the period ending December 1985. They will require support from the Exchequer by way of guaranteed borrowings during that period. I will be introducing amending legislation shortly to enable the Minister for Finance to give the necessary guarantees and Deputies will have a further opportunity of discussing the company's financial position in greater detail.

On a brighter note, the car ferry services of Irish Continental Line and Belfast Car Ferries continue to operate successfully. As Deputies are aware, Irish Continental Line had hoped to participate in the establishment of a Cork-Swansea car ferry service in summer 1984. Unfortunately, time constraints which were an obstacle to effective marketing of the service and difficulties in obtaining a suitable vessel forced the company to decide against a service for the coming season. It is their intention, however, to take the necessary steps, in association with the other interested parties, to provide a Cork-Swansea service in 1985.

From maritime matters I would now like to turn to aviation. In the recent past airlines worldwide have encountered serious problems. The severe economic recession, which in recent years has affected the entire western economy and caused a slump in travel generally, the effect on airline costs of inflation, fuel cost escalation and high interest rates are some of the factors which have caused all the major airlines to take necessary retrenchment measures. Aer Lingus have not escaped the general trend and the company have found it necessary to secure economies in many areas in order to reduce costs and improve operational and financial efficiency. Certain routes have had to be dropped from the company's scheduled passenger network and operating patterns have had to be modified to realise savings. Substantial economies in fuel consumption are being achieved and new technology is being introduced. Staff numbers have had to be reduced and work practices simplified. These are all necessary economies and I fully support the initiatives taken by Aer Lingus in this area.

The net result is that for the first time since 1979-80 Aer Lingus have returned to profitability. The company are hopeful of making a net profit of £3 million in the year ending 31 March 1984 after taking into account an Exchequer cost alleviation payment of £4 million to help the airline during a period of particular difficulty on the North Atlantic. Compared with net losses of £13.6 million in 1980-81, £9.2 million in 1981-82 and £2.5 million in 1982-83 (the latter figure took account of an Exchequer cost alleviation payment of £5 million), the company's expected results for 1983-84 represent a significant improvement, particularly against the background of the very difficult trading conditions which continue to prevail.

Apart from the cost alleviation payments to which I have already referred, State investment in the air companies was increased by way of a £15 million equity injection in March 1983 and I am glad to be able to tell the House that, in accordance with the Government commitment outlined during the passage through this House 12 months ago of the Air Companies (Amendment) Bill, 1983 the Minister for Finance will take up additional equity of £15 million before the end of the current month.

Even allowing for the contribution made by the Government both by way of additional equity and cost alleviation payments, I readily acknowledge that the improvement in the Aer Lingus performance would not have been possible without the help and co-operation of Aer Lingus staff and unions and I would like to pay a special tribute to them for the way in which they have joined with the management of the airline in seeking necessary savings.

In so far as 1984-85 is concerned, the preliminary indications are that this will be another difficult year, with Aer Lingus predicting a slight decline in traffic overall, intensified competition in the European charter market and increased pressure from both scheduled and charter operators on the North Atlantic routes. With the continuing co-operation of staff and trade unions, Aer Lingus are responding to these pressures by a determined effort to improve the quality of their services and to compress still further the level of their costs. It is virtually impossible at this stage to forecast with any degree of accuracy the outturn for 1984-85 but I trust that the company will intensify their efforts to continue to trade profitably. Given the substantial finance required for fleet replacement over the next decade, it is absolutely essential that the company should be able to build up their resources for that purpose.

I must myself claim a small share in the credit for the turnaround in the financial fortunes of Aer Lingus in 1983. The year 1982 was disastrous for Aer Lingus and the other scheduled carriers on the North Atlantic, because of a price war which resulted in heavy losses for the carriers concerned. These losses were such as to threaten the continued operation of an Irish transatlantic service. The suspension of the Aer Lingus service would have had incalculable consequences for trade and tourism and the economy as a whole, particularly since the US airlines serving Ireland do not find it possible to maintain services during the winter period. One of the main factors which gave rise to the 1982 situation was the disruptive effect of certain low-priced charter programmes introduced to the US-Ireland market.

Despite two rounds of talks with the US authorities, it was not possible to reach agreement on the need for action in 1983 to avert a recurrence of the 1982 situation. In those circumstances, I applied on a unilateral basis a charter quota of 47,000 one-way seats for traffic into Ireland in respect of the New York and Boston gateways during the peak June to September period. While this figure provided adequate scope for expansion of US charters, in that it provided for growth of 50 per cent over 1982 it nevertheless had the beneficial effect of alleviating concern among the scheduled carriers about the potential growth of disruptive low-cost charters. This permitted the scheduled carriers to sell at less uneconomic fare levels during 1983 and contributed to the substantial improvement in the Aer Lingus financial performance in 1983-84.

In the light of last year's experience, I have taken similar regulatory action for 1984 but have approved programmes totalling about 60,000 seats in the June to September period from the New York and Boston gateways. This represents an increase of almost 30 per cent on the charter capacity approved last year.

To stimulate a growth in North Atlantic traffic, I was happy to approve in the past few days competitive scheduled fares for Aer Lingus, Northwest Orient and Transamerica in respect of the US-Ireland routes. In many cases, these are at or below the 1983 levels and are significantly below US-London levels.

I am optimistic that my approval of the substantial programmes of charter series, coupled with the keenly priced air fares in the US-Ireland market for this summer, will go a long way towards helping Bord Fáilte to achieve their 6 per cent to 10 per cent growth target in US visitors this year.

I should like to say a few words about the recent collapse of Avair. When I came into office 15 months ago, applications were on my table from both Avair and Aer Arran, both of whom were interested in becoming involved in servicing cross-Channel routes. At the same time Aer Lingus expressed interest in commencing similar commuter-type operations. In examining the UK-Ireland market scene, I found that a large number of routes were being operated on a monopoly basis by UK carriers. The general thrust of my decision last March to authorise all three carriers on certain UK-Ireland routes was designed to expand the volume of business of Irish carriers vis-à-vis their UK competitors. I felt that it would be most unfair of me to deny Irish carriers these opportunities when, under the UK-Ireland Bilateral Agreement, I could not deny UK carriers the same opportunities. At the same time, I fully understood the strong opposition of both Aer Lingus and the Irish Congress of Trade Unions to the grant of rights on cross-Channel routes to independent carriers. I was conscious that my decision would entail some extra competition for Aer Lingus but it was necessary in my view to deal with the applications of the Irish independent carriers in a fair and objective way and I proceeded on that basis.

In allocating routes between competing Irish carriers, I sought to strike an equitable balance between the desire to encourage more services, the applicant's capacity to service the routes granted and my overall responsibility to ensure the orderly development of aviation in Ireland. Having made my decision, I felt that carriers should seek to consolidate their position on their new routes before any major expansion of activity was contemplated. Indeed, I considered that a prerequisite for the grant of additional rights would be the successful operation of traffic rights on their existing routes.

The recent collapse of Avair has been most disappointing. I regret very much that the company's future and 86 jobs should now be in jeopardy. In developing their internal air service network in recent years, Avair made strenuous efforts to build up a highly professional airline and in the process established a good image not only for themselves but for independent carrier operations in the country. Much as I regretted the financial problems of Avair, I could not accede to their last-minute request to provide the airline with financial assistance of the order of £400,000. Apart from the very difficult financial position of the Exchequer, it would be totally contrary to established policy to subsidise a private airline.

Since the Receiver's appointment to Avair last month, I have been keeping in close touch with the progress being made by him in his efforts to dispose of the business. I am not yet in a position to report any positive news to the House since approaches by interested parties to the Receiver must of necessity, be dealt with on a highly confidential basis but I would hope to be in a position to make some statement in the matter in the very near future. Some airlines have already expressed interest in operating scheduled services on Avair's existing routes but I have been reluctant to take any decision which might hinder the work of the Receiver. All of the applications will, however, be considered in conjunction with any proposal which may be made by the Receiver.

Deputies may be assured that I am acutely conscious that a number of areas within the country have been left without a service or with limited service and my particular priority is the restoration as soon as possible of adequate scheduled air services on the Dublin-Cork and Dublin-Derry routes. The suspension by Aer Arann of their Dublin-Shannon service within the past week had added to an already difficult situation.

In terms of traffic passing through the three State airports of Shannon, Cork and Dublin, 1983 has been another difficult year. Total numbers dropped from 4.06 million in 1982 to 3.8 million in 1983. Traffic figures at both Shannon and Dublin Airports declined, in each case by 5 per cent, but against the trend traffic figures at Cork Airport increased from 316,000 to 324,000. Despite the overall fall in total numbers, Aer Rianta, who manage the three airports on my behalf, have produced an estimated trading surplus of £6 million in 1983, a substantial increase on the comparable figure of £4.86 million for 1982. Judged against the background of the very difficult trading conditions which prevailed during 1983, Aer Rianta's results for 1983 represent a considerable achievement which reflects credit on the board, management and staff of the company. This is one of the State companies we do not hear much about. It goes to show that State companies are not necessarily loss makers.

In looking at the Aer Rianta results, it is of course important to bear in mind that, since capital expenditure at the airports is funded directly from my Department's Vote, the Aer Rianta accounts do not make provision for interest or depreciation. Instead, Aer Rianta make annual surrenders of their surplus to the Department. The surplus figure included in the current year's Estimates is £6 million, a figure which Aer Rianta are confident of achieving. The substantial improvement in Aer Rianta's financial performance was achieved mainly through improved cost control throughout the company and by securing an increase in the profitability of their commercial activities.

Shannon Airport continued to recover during 1983. Aer Rianta estimate that Shannon's financial surplus for 1983 was over £1.25 million. This compares with a surplus of £600,000 in 1982 and a loss of £750,000 in 1981. This continuing success at Shannon is a source of great pleasure to me and Deputies can be assured I will continue to do everything I can to help maintain this success story. The financial surplus on Dublin Airport is expected to be well over £5 million with solid improvement in the results on both aviation and commercial activities. Notwithstanding, however, the increase in their traffic figures, Cork Airport's results showed a disimprovement over 1982. Aer Rianta expect that final figures for 1983 will show Cork's net deficit at over £750,000 compared with a deficit of £635,000 in 1982. The company are, however, forecasting an improvement on Cork Airport's performance in the current year as various recovery measures begin to take effect. In the latter connection, I was pleased to note that Aer Rianta recently announced a major marketing enterprise aimed at increasing passenger numbers at Cork Airport by 33 per cent over the next five years. I must compliment Aer Rianta on their initiative in this respect. They can be assured of my active encouragement in this and I hope that their efforts will be reflected in a turnaround in Cork Airport's financial performance.

I am making an allocation of £1.05 million for regional and local airports this year as compared with expenditure of £2.8 million in 1983. The bulk of the allocation will be spent on meeting contractual obligations for works at the Connacht Regional Airport, for which £650,000 is being provided. In this connection I should say that when drawing up the 1984 Estimate for grants towards the cost of regional and local airport development, the Government gave particular attention to the provision for Connacht Airport. They had before them a request from the promoters seeking what was in effect a commitment that the project would continue to be financed by the Exchequer and that work would proceed at a sufficient pace to enable the airport to be completed by April 1985.

The Government gave careful consideration to this matter but in view of the magnitude of the budgetary problems facing them the Government decided that the most they could do was to allocate a sum not exceeding £650,000 to the airport company in 1984 to meet the existing contractual commitments of the company on the project.

This will bring total Exchequer assistance to Connacht Airport to almost £10 million and will have placed in situ a 6,000 ft. runway, a taxiway and an aircraft parking apron. The Government also decided that when this year's allocation is expended no further Exchequer contribution will be forthcoming thereafter and that no Exchequer commitment will be forthcoming to subsidise running costs.

The Estimate also provides a sum of £300,000 for the development of Carnmore Airport, Galway, and the remainder of the subhead will be used to meet the cost of minor developments at other local airports. There has been a growing demand for Exchequer assistance in recent years for the development of regional and local airports and the State has responded generously, indeed some might say foolishly, in terms of grants towards the capital cost of various projects. Regional airports have been built at Waterford and Sligo; improvements have been carried out at Farranfore and Abbeyshrule; and substantial sums have been provided towards the cost of the Connacht Regional Airport. In the 1981 to 1983 period Exchequer grants from my Department totalling approximately £10 million have been provided. The level of local contributions towards the capital cost has been minimal and there were no contributions in some cases.

Quite frankly few areas of national expenditure have been so lacking in cost-benefit analysis as expenditure on some regional airports. Many decisions were purely political decisions taken against all available advice. The joke of unjustified regional airports has come to an end.

I am satisfied that the time is now opportune to review the arrangements for grant-aiding regional-local airport development. In these difficult budgetary times, value for money has to be the main criterion and capital projects have to be critically analysed to ensure that an adequate rate of return is earned on the investment. I have arranged, therefore, that my Department will carry out a review of policy in this area with special emphasis on the level of State funding.

The £104 million provision for CIE subvention, accounting for nearly 60 per cent of my Department's total current expenditure, underlines the continuing extent of CIE dependence on the Exchequer and the seriousness of the board's financial position. Last December, in the debate which we had on the Transport Bill, 1983, I dealt with CIE's financial position in considerable detail. The subject is so important that I decided to revert to it again today, even if in a less intensive way.

Deputies will recall that during the December debate I referred to the additional financial problem represented by the cost of providing the electrified rail service between Howth and Bray. I am having this problem examined urgently.

The new subvention policy which I announced last June and which became operational on 1 January 1984 and on which the £104 million is based, now provides the framework within which CIE's financial performance should and can be steadily and substantially improved. The new policy, as the House will recall, provides that: firstly, CIE subvention will be determined as the lesser of 50 per cent of the board's revenue or 33? per cent of expenditure; secondly, over the next five years CIE expenditure will be reduced by 12 per cent in real terms with the outturn for 1983 as the base; and thirdly, subvention will be paid "above the line".

To deal with the capital expenditure of CIE a special committee will appraise and monitor all significant capital investments. The new subvention policy recognised that with CIE subvention now calculated on a more rational basis the company could concentrate on cutting costs and improving revenues. The new arrangement provides a better basis for CIE financial planning and a motivation for the whole organisation to make a greater effort.

The CIE allocation for capital investment in 1984 is £57 million. This provision has been made to enable CIE to complete the Howth-Bray rail electrification programme, continue the production programme of railway carriages at Inchicore and improve the bus fleet by providing for a further 120 buses manufactured at Shannon.

The first substantial development indicating that we are on the right path can be seen in the board's preliminary results for 1983. I hope that it is the first of many indicators of substantial improvements. CIE's deficit for 1983 amounted to £103.38 million, an improvement of some 15 per cent in real terms on the 1982 deficit of £109 million. It is the first time in many years that there has been a reduction in CIE's deficit. A 1984 deficit of £104 million to match the subvention would be a further improvement amounting in real terms to an improvement of some 20 per cent on the 1982 results. 1983 has been the best year for CIE in a long time. This magnificent improvement is a matter for warm congratulations to the Board, management and workforce of CIE who most of the time are damned by the climate of criticism in which they operate. Perhaps some of the criticism is fair but it is now only fair to record the achievements of 1983 and to express the hope that this new trend can be continued in the future. Moreover, these achievements were not accompanied by massive cuts in services or by any redundancies, which makes the achievement all the more sweet.

This is the background as we approach imminent Government decisions on the future shape of CIE in the light of McKinsey and other reports. Deputies may expect further statements from me around Easter.

The fundamental changes in the transport sector cannot be ignored.

International transport affairs represent an important part of my Department's activities. At present I am President of Eurocontrol, the international body which co-ordinates air traffic control services in the upper airspace over Europe. The Secretary of my Department is President of the European Civil Aviation Conference (ECAC) which represents the civil aviation administrations of Western Europe and which is at present engaged in an important dialogue with the United States authorities in an effort to develop a co-ordinated regulatory regime for North Atlantic services.

From 1 July next, when Ireland assumes the Presidency of the EEC, I will have responsibility for guiding the development of the transport policy of the European Community. This will entail such issues as the relaxation of frontier controls, the improvement of market access for road haulage vehicles, the harmonisation of road tax structures and the question of financial aid for the transport infrastructure of the Community. In addition, we will be undertaking the initial consideration of the EEC Commission's new proposals in the air transport sphere as well as a number of marine affairs in the safety and commercial sphere.

I hope I have covered in the time available to me the principal areas of interest to Deputies. The Vote for Communications covers many aspects of our national infrastructure. In fact it would not be an exaggeration to say that its consequences reach into every house in the land.

Amidst the great communication revolution now enveloping the world and indeed the universe, my primary objectives in the area of communications are

— to maintain and develop an efficient communications system which will provide up to date facilities at minimum costs;

— to ensure that the activity of each State company in the marketplace is consistent with and supportive of its mandate;

— to set clear financial targets for the companies under my aegis which will serve both as an incentive to management and workers and as a measure against which success can be judged; and

— to expand to the full the natural advantages of Ireland in terms of geographical location, population, age structure and education in the exciting developments in infrastructure and communications technology.

Although we have not yet surmounted all the hurdles I am satisfied that we are making significant progress to date towards the achievement of these objectives.

I commend the Estimates to the House.

I welcome the opportunity of a debate on the Estimates for 1984. I have a certain sympathy with Deputy De Rossa over the short notice. The Minister did communicate to me a difficulty raised by the Department of Finance arising from the fact that An Bord Post and An Bord Telecom were siphoned off and we have now in effect a new Department and the old rule of thumb which allowed for a fixed expenditure in the Department before the Estimates were passed by the House could not apply to the new Department. I view the Department of Finance interpretation of the situation with the same scepticism with which I view everything that emanates from the Department of Finance, and consequnetly I have, as I said, some sympathy with Deputy De Rossa because of the short notice. The Minister is not responsible in any one way, and at one stage it was thought we would pass the Estimates and leave the way open for a full debate later on. However we are now debating the Estimates and that is that, and I am just indicating to Deputy De Rossa that there was no intention to give short notice to anybody.

To me, the biggest disappointment in the Minister's brief is the cavalier treatment he gave to the whole idea of the establishment of a Dublin Transport Authority. I shall come back to that later on and I shall outline what we intended by way of a Dublin Transport Authority and the hopes we had for it. The second part is that Deputy Leyden will be dealing with the posts and telecommunications sector and consequently any reference I make will be just a passing reference. The Minister mentioned the post bus venture, and I would like to know how that is getting on, because I had the privilege of launching the idea in County Clare. I would now like to know if it has been expanded and if the services provided have been successful.

I did not quite understand the reference to the financing of the telecommunications sector. I understand the independent financing board is in full operation. The hope was that there would be no call on the Exchequer direct for financing the capital development. There was not much trouble in getting the funds for the independent financing of the organisation. I remember commenting on the importance of where the money should be borrowed taking into consideration the dangers with hard currencies, particularly the Deutschemark and the dollar, leaving us in a greater debt than we calculated originally at the time of borrowing. I suppose this is particularly true of the dollar in recent times though in the last few weeks it has been weakening to our advantage.

A quick comment now on the Minister's reference to the billing for telephone charges. I compliment the Minister on having established an independent grouping designed to effect the efficiency of the billing, but I am not at all convinced of success because the Minister said there clearly remains a serious problem of perception. I accept that the people who have switched from manual to automatic exchanges sometimes have been their own worst enemies. Because of the novelty they have used without control the automatic system and are shocked then when they get the bill. But there are complaints being made. On the basis of the information given me they answer questions confidently on that side of the House. But in one particular instance I know for a fact a mistake was made in the recent past in a telephone bill with which I was concerned myself. On 27 December 1983 I was billed £1.45 for a telephone call supposedly made from my house in Cavan. On that day the house was firmly locked up. I wrote to the Department telling them that I could not check — in the normal course of events I do not have time to check or examine the bills very carefully, and I suspect most people are the same — but as it so happened I knew where I was on 27 December last, I knew that the house was locked up and that that telephone call was not made on that day.

Inquiries were initiated as a result of my calling the attention of the Telephone Accounts Manager to this and the inquiries were made from my local manual exchange. The telephone call was supposed to have been made at 1.25 p.m. on that date. On that date the local telephone exchange was not in operation, it being a bank holiday they provided a service in the morning and late evening only. This is what shakes my confidence in answers given, indeed in answers I gave when I was sitting where the Minister now sits. If I could show that that call was not made, that I was charged £1.45 for it, it leaves me just that little bit sceptical, that little bit queasy about the reliability of the billing system on dates I could not normally or naturally check. I do not want to dwell on this but I brought it to the attention of the Telephone Accounts Manager——

That must have been an operator-assisted call.

Yes, it would have to be——

As the Deputy knows, there can be human mistakes made——

Yes, but this is the trouble — the operator did not register any call on that day for me from Finea 30. That is the blunt fact.

In other words it was an operator-assisted call, somebody made a mistake, as distinct from the meter.

Somebody made a mistake, yes and, as it so happened, I could check on it but normally I would not be able to do so.

I will leave the matter of vacant buildings to somebody else; I saw the chairman of the committee here earlier. In preparing the legislation I had dealings with Mr. Smurfit, Mr. Burns, Mr. Quinn and Mr. Garvey. Certainly they inspired confidence in me as being men who were determined to provide a good service in both their areas. I must place on record that I have the utmost confidence in them.

I am grateful to the Minister for his comments on the direct broadcasting service. I am grateful to him for saying a word of appreciation about the setting up of the committee to investigate direct broadcasting by satellite. I am grateful to him also for his statement with regard to local radio, that there will be no imposition of a uniform type of local radio service, in other words, that each area will be allowed develop its own flavour. I hope the flavour will be really local, that it will not be just the international "Pop" culture with a local accent. I do not think the IBA would constitute a proper model with regard to local radio because of our much smaller population which will have to be taken into account in determining the number of licences to be granted.

Labhair an tAire faoi Radio na Gaeltachta agus déanaim comhgháirdeas leis mar gur chuir sé píosa Gaeilge isteach ina oráid féin. Tá a fhios agam go bhfuil suim aige inti agus tá súil agam go mbeidh an plean a luaigh sé i dtaobh Radio na Gaeltachta curtha i bhfeidhm sar i bhfad. Ba é an tAire anois díreach sa Teach a chuala mé den chéad uair ag caint faoi Radio na Gaeltachta mar Radio 3. Tá súil agam go mbeidh an fhorbairt a luaigh sé le fáil ag Radio na Gaeltachta. Tá forbairt an stáisiúin sin geallta le fada agus tá súil agam go mbeimid ábalta Radio 3 a dhéanamh de agus go mbeidh siad ábalta a bheith ag craolú i rith an lae ar fad de réir mar a dúirt an tAire.

I should like to know from the Minister if the report of the committee I set up with regard to direct broadcasting by satellite is available. I am glad some Irish interests have submitted proposals to him. I would be alarmed if I thought that the direct broadcasting service was made available to non-nationals. I agree with him fully that the potential is great. I know also that the expenses are very high. As far as I am aware Britain started off with great enthusiasm for direct broadcasting by satellite but I think they have pulled back slightly in their interest recently — they may have changed again — but I do have some factual information about a certain growing colder attitude on the part of the United Kingdom authorities. Our footprint — I think that is the technical term — as far as I remember is wide, the access is great and, even if it is an Irish company — which I hope it will be — that operates it the flavour will have to be an international one if it is to be a proper commercial proposition. For example, I foresee great potential: if we were speaking to the whole of the United Kingdom, a good part of the Benelux countries, West Germany and all of France, as of now, we would have a very strong vehicle for getting our idea across with regard to the milk super-levy causing such concern to our dairying sector at present. The Minister also mentioned the potential for employment in that regard, which is of course, the uppermost consideration in any Government or non-governmental action as of now.

Deputy Leyden will be dealing mainly with radio, television and the telecommunications section of the Estimate. I merely make those remarks in passing. I commenced by saying I was more than disappointed that the Minister had not before us here proposals with regard to the establishment of the Dublin Transport Authority. Looking at the transport scene in as Olympian a fashion as one can, anybody would agree that the Dublin transport problem is the major one now confronting a Government Department, indeed facing us as a country. As the House is aware, in 1983, when I was Minister for Transport, I prepared the headings of a Bill and sent them to the parliamentary draftsman to set up a Dublin Transport Authority. The decision was taken in April 1980 that a Dublin Transport Authority be established. We proposed that the format would be that of a statutory corporation and that the authority would have nine members. These members would not be selected in a representative capacity but because of their expertise and special knowledge of transport in general and particularly transport in Dublin. The authority was to be required to plan for the transport needs of the Dublin area.

Dublin has three local authorities: Dublin Corporation, Dublin County Council and Dun Laoghaire Borough Council. It was to look at the development plans of the authorities and make decisions where those plans overlapped or clashed. Provision was to have been made for a final Government decision if such difficulties were not resolved. Provisions which would strengthen the authority in implementing approved plans were to be incorporated in the legislation. It was borne in on me as Minister and I managed to convince the Government that the idea of railway planning and the planning of roads by a different authority was causing great hardship. The country was convinced that a Dublin Transport Authority would have to be established in order to resolve the difficulties. The most important thing was that the authority would allocate exchequer capital moneys each year for roads and public transport infrastructure and Exchequer non-capital money for maintenance of infrastructure and the support of the operation of the public transport services.

The House will be convinced that the principle of rationalising all the activities and seeing to it that the road authority was not in conflict with the rail authority in these developments is paramount in present circumstances. The officials in the Department of Transport know that we had to come to terms with the Department of the Environment. This was not easy. We had long and tedious negotiations but finally we made decisions with regard to the Department of the Environment's function in relation to roads. The authority was to replace the Garda Commissioner as the road traffic authority for the Dublin area. However, the Garda Commissioner was to remain the authority responsible for enforcement with the exception of road traffic wardens. The authority was to have research and education functions.

As I said, I am very disappointed. The Minister referred to it in his speech and in the context of local government reform. In one sense that is reasonable and in another sense it is alarming and might indicate that the progress we made and the bridgehead we established in trying to bring about a statutory Dublin Transport Authority has been lost. Other Departments seem to have encroached again and retrieved their positions. I should like an assurance from the Minister that this is not so. The Minister referred to the Dublin Transport Authority on occasion and said that he was not totally satisfied with the terms in which I presented it to the parliamentary draftsman but I should like him to be more forthcoming with his observations in that respect. I regard this as of major importance.

I pay tribute to the task force which was an interim body charged with developing Dublin transport. The Minister said that bus lanes were provided. He told us how many of these there are and said that they were nearly at the maximum number possible in the city. The Transport Consultative Commission mentioned speed of traffic as being very important with a view to enticing people away from using private transport to using public transport. Bus lanes have contributed to that. I hope the bus lanes will be strongly enforced. In the city I have seen people take chances and drive on the bus lanes during the forbidden times. A very strict eye must be kept on bus lanes. I remember that taxi-drivers approached me on foot of a promise made by the present Taoiseach and a vague promise made by someone in the Fianna Fáil headquarters during the election asking for permission to use the bus lanes. I refused and was in trouble with the taxi-drivers. They had the option of putting a plate on the back of the taxies which would identify them clearly as taxies and then enter the bus lanes. If there is a measure of unpopularity in resisting certain proposals we should put up with that in order to get a free flow of traffic. The commission report said that this was very important.

The report also mentioned the provision of good buses. Will the Minister indicate the position regarding the bus building company in Shannon? I understand it has changed hands. How many buses are built there per fortnight? What is the future of the company? I put down a question on the Order Paper about this but it will be some time before it comes up because of the crazy system of questions we have now compared to a few years ago. I agree with Deputy Flanagan who made the point a few weeks ago that it is nearly impossible to get an answer to a question if it is left in situ on the Order Paper. Are they exporting buses as they claimed they would be able to do when I was Minister for Transport? They gave that as one of the reasons why we should continue to support them.

The commission wanted free traffic flow and bus lanes were provided in order to achieve that. There was also the question of parking and good buses. The Bombardier buses have been a greater success than they were given credit for. In the recent Dublin north central by-election I canvassed in the bus garages and spoke to all the drivers and asked what they thought about these buses and what they were like to drive. They are the people best qualified to let us know what they are like. For the most part they were very satisfied with the performance of the buses. The availability of the buses is high. Fuelling costs are also high. There was some question about the engines but taking it all in all that aspect has been improved.

I am talking about this in the context of the Dublin Transport Authority and the Dublin city services. I may be naive, but with all these improvements and the improvements in the traffic lights I would like a little more information about how far the computerised traffic system has advanced over the last 12 months. I understood that it would be finished by now. The Dublin city services, if they are good, if there is a free flow of traffic, if the dreadful traffic jams can be unsnarled, so to speak, should be in a position to make money. If they are in a position to attract customers they should be in a position to make money.

Table 9.4, on page 104 of the report of the Transport Consultative Commission shows public transport fares revenue as a percentage of running costs in selected European cities and towns for 1975. Antwerp, Brussels, Charleroi and Liège are given and the revenue is a percentage of running costs of those towns was respectively 44.9, 37.6, 55.3 and 55.1, whereas in Dublin that year the revenue percentage was 98.8. That is very impressive and that is not even a decade ago. The position has deteriorated since then. The CIE report for 1981 indicates that the revenue for Dublin city services for that year was £35.5 million roughly but the expenditure was £60 million to the nearest integer. Obviously, since 1975 a great many things have happened. I hope that the statistics are reliable; I am becoming more and more shaky about statistics. In 1975 the first oil hike had taken place, consequently the 1973 oil hike must have come in for reckoning in the 1975 assessment. Admittedly, we have had the 1979 oil hike in the meantime and that will be incorporated in the 1981 figure. With all the improvements I have mentioned, the Dublin Transport Authority dealing with the transport situation in the city, the bus lanes, the computerised services, rationalisation of parking and morale improved in the people who are providing the Dublin city services, I could visualise a profitable and efficient transport system in this city if the problems were faced, but I do not think they can be faced in the absence of the Dublin Transport Authority.

One thing I did not mention and which I think is very important is labour relations which also played a big part in the considerations of the Transport Consultative Commission. All the plans for free flows and so on will founder if we do not develop a good industrial relations situation in the Dublin city services.

The finances certainly are deteriorating. The NPC in their publication No. 133 of November 1983, show a table of the CIE deficit. It starts at 1969. The Dublin city bus services at that time were in a glut situation as they were also in 1970. That was not so in 1971, but it was in 1972. From there on we go from £2.9 million deficit in 1974 — which, as far as I remember, was a short, nine-month financial year — to £5.035 million in 1975, to £22 million in 1983 and a projection for 1984 of £20.9 million. All we have to do is look at those losses to see what the problem is with regard to the Dublin city services.

I cannot emphasise too much the link that I see between the establishment of a Dublin Transport Authority who will have statutory teeth to develop transport in the city and a profit-making situation if we faced reality now. The customers are there; go and get them. With the rationalisation which the Dublin Transport Authority will bring about by virtue of their existence and the powers conferred upon them by statute, this situation of profitability can be reached. The task force who were put in as a stop gap pending the putting of the legislation through this House have achieved wonderful results. If this can be done without statutory powers what can we expect from a full blown Dublin Transport Authority?

A reading of the Book of Estimates reveals that there is no question at all about where the major problem lies with regard to finances. Over that same period from 1975 onwards the deficit of the railway services increased from £20 million in 1975 to £75.7 million in 1983. I do not know what the basis is; the Minister may be able to tell me. The projected loss for 1984 is a colossal £93.9 million. Therefore, the amount of money paid on vote of this House to CIE is substantially a railway vote, a railway deficit. I read the figures for the Dublin city services and there are also the provincial bus services, but the substantive contribution is that of the railways. I know that there is a new chairman and chief executive in CIE and the Minister has stated that the McKinsey Report is being considered. That was mentioned in his speech of last year which I read this morning. He was not very long in office then but I would like to have had some further expansion of his views on the McKinsey Report.

As I stated on the last transport debate, there was a belief among transport "wallahs" that some losses were attributed to the railways which did not properly so belong. Again, this is an area which I would recommend for examination to the new chairman and chief executive. Decisions will have to be taken and if one considers — as the Minister mentioned both today and in his speech of last year — the social extension of the provision of services, whether rail — which are the big money losers — or Dublin city or provincial bus services, one can argue that we are not spending too much on these services. That argument weighs heavily with me when I consider that yesterday we voted over £1 billion for social services and were not even satisfied with that amount. £104 million would lose its way in that kind of company.

If there is to be — and there must be — a social consideration with regard to the provision of public transport, then it should be isolated. I commend the Minister for the above-the-line payments which is a good idea from many points of view, not least the morale of the organisation. Would it not be possible to isolate the heavy loss-making social elements and fund them from the Department of Social Welfare? If you deduct the amount paid to CIE for the railways from the total funding of the Department of Transport, there is very little left. It is for that reason that an exercise in isolating the social elements, coming to a decision on them, deciding to keep them on and making the provision through the Department of Social Welfare for their continuation would be a rational procedure, not least, again, from a morale point of view of the board, management and workers in CIE. Then the company could have a brief which is in accordance with the principles which we published in our programme for the seventies before the last general election — that they were to act as a commercial body, to go into the market place and try to make a profit. This should certainly be thought about. The new chairman and chief executive has the reputation of looking at his brief, making quick decisions about what has to be done and, like anyone else who has been in a general commercial profession before going to CIE, he would be happy with an isolation of the commercially viable, or potentially commercially viable areas of his operation. A £100,000 grant-in-aid for the Dublin Transport Authority is all that is mentioned and that is very disheartening.

The Minister mentions the possibility of the use of the Phoenix Park by CIE. I know that the Minister is in the position of having to deal with something which affects his own constituency. I want to put on the record of the House my views on this. They are that the Minister should resist this proposal with all the powers at his disposal and should not allow CIE through the Phoenix Park — this unique amenity for a city of this kind, a park which in extent is larger than all the London parks, Hyde Park, Green Park and Regent's Park put together and with acres to spare. This amenity is there fortuitously.

Members of the House who have read Maurice Craig's Architectural History of Dublin will remember a very good story about the origin of the Phoenix Park. Apparently, George I intended to give it to his mistress, the Duchess of Cleveland, on the principle, as Maurice Craig happily puts it, of rewards in Ireland for services rendered in England. The Duke of Ormonde at the time opposed this strenuously and succeeded in having the park preserved for the citizenry of Dublin. On a later occasion, as Craig reports in his book, when the Duke of Ormonde met the Duchess of Cleveland she viciously attacked him and said, “I hope to live to see you hanged”. His reply was devastating, but brief, “Madame, I hope to live to see you grow old”.

This is the park which has been preserved for the citizenry of Dublin. We have the Zoological Gardens there, large herds of deer on the loose in the park, football pitches, walks, grazing, alternate trees. I get great pleasure out of passing through that park on my way to and from the Dáil but I cannot delay there for very long. The Minister should resist CIE's request to use that park. He may have a difficulty — we all have difficulties at times when the principles which we hold clash with our desire for self-preservation in our constituencies. I realise that problem — it may happen to me on some other issues at some time but, as far as this proposal is concerned, I suggest that the Minister get his Minister of State to state bluntly and strongly that no way will he allow CIE to use the Phoenix Park. Is there any limit on time, a Cheann Comhairle?

There is an hour and a half. The Deputy has until 1.34 p.m.

The recommendation with regard to road freight haulage was that the haulage should be liberalised. I am glad that the Minister is adhering to that advice and that principle. I am just wondering if the legislation could not be speeded up. There is hardly any Member of the House who has not had some representations from people involved in the haulage business because they are in quite a dilemma. The plates sell at a substantial sum of money. This system will cease as soon as the new legislation is on the Statute Book. We are supposed to encourage young people with opportunities for self-employment. Many of them have come to me to ask if it is worth doing at all. The need to raise £8,000 gives them pause. I had this problem when, as Minister, I was pushing as fast as I could various pieces of legislation. My advice to them then was: "I cannot tell you whether to buy or not to buy. You would have to assess how long it would take you to clear the £6,000 or £8,000. Governments and legislation can change, so I cannot give you advice". Those people are in a difficult position. Many of them are taking the courses in RTCs to equip themselves with the necessary qualifications required for new entrants to road haulage. Therefore, I would encourage the Minister to speed up that Bill and have it before the House soon. I can assure him he will get nothing but co-operation and constructive criticism from this side.

The Minister devoted an entire paragraph to the activities of B & I. I hope he will indicate how the Dublin-Holyhead route is working out financially. It has been claimed that the company were at a disadvantage in competing with Sealink and they had hopes of being allocated a short-haul route. They have that shorthaul route now — I understand there was almost a war at sea when that service began — and I should like to know how they are competing and how their finances are going. I am glad to see that the Minister has continued to support B & I. I have the greatest confidence in their chairman and board. They know their jobs and they do them very well.

I should like to know what is the position in regard to the Cork-Pembroke route. I gather there will not be any service this summer. Various things about that have puzzled me. I could never find out what the loss was because the losses were lumped together. I hope the Minister can tell us exactly how much was lost on the experimental service last summer. Needless to say, loss on the transport venture is not a loss to the country as the people involved, in industry, farming and tourism in Munster indicated to me when I was Minister. However, I should like to know what the losses were last year.

We discussed Irish Shipping last year at some length. Once the shining beacon among our semi-State companies, Irish Shipping began to lose money recently, and I do not think there is anything the House can recommend or Irish Shipping can do to remedy the problem which has developed in the deep sea business. I have a question on the Order Paper, it may be reached by 1990, asking what world freight rates were in 1977 and what they are today. The bottom has fallen from that business and created a serious problem for Irish Shipping. The Minister told us that there has been a restructuring of the financial commitment with a view to reducing these problems up to 1985 and that support from the Exchequer, by way of guaranteed borrowing, will be needed. He will be bringing legislation before us soon, and this side of the House will support that proposal.

I should like to refer to the Irish Continental Line and Belfast Car Ferries who are operating successfully. I am pleased that is so. I remember there were grave doubts about Belfast Car Ferries when the venture was mooted. It can do nothing but good in more ways than financially and economically. The Irish Continental Line proposed a Cork to Swansea service for this summer but I understand from the newspapers that they do not intend to go ahead with it. I used that line last summer and was very pleased that so much business was being done by the St. Killian. I hope the company will continue to regard services to the Continent as being very important. There is competition now on the Cork to North-West France route and Irish citizens have begun to say how convenient that is for them.

At one time we used to boast that we had something extra special to offer by way of service and friendliness. That included Aer Lingus. The management of Irish Continental Line should concentrate heavily on that — the cleanliness of the ships, the quality of the food and services and friendliness. This is important, but I am afraid it is sometimes neglected. If you are in competition you must strengthen any special benefits you can provide. I have heard complaints about the service on some of the ferry boats. I do not know how well-founded they were because, as far as I could see, the staff were for the most part making an effort to provide as friendly and as good a service as possible. Admittedly there was a go-slow at that time by the ship's officers and this had an effect on passengers. It came down the line and affected other staff who were not involved in the dispute in any way but suffered as a result of it. A tight friendly service is important.

With regard to Aer Lingus the Minister had words of optimism for us this morning. He told us that for the first time since 1979-80 Aer Lingus have returned to profitability and that the company was hopeful of making a net profit of £3 million in the year ending 31 March 1984. The cost — alleviation grant in 1983 was £5 million but I notice that that grant has been reduced to £4 million this year. Will the Minister indicate whether this was as a result of improvements in profitability on the North Atlantic route? Looking hard at all these accountancy figures what is an apparent profit very often turns out not to be a real profit. I am glad, as the Minister indicated, that the company is on the up and up. I hope that will continue. I should like to know if the North Atlantic route costings have improved, even including the £4 million for this year. The dollar has been so strong over a period that we are bound to have an advantage there that can be exploited in the US market. I am aware that US tourists look very hard at all costs and bargains. I know the problem in regard to charter competition but I understand Bord Failte are making a major bid this year. The climate is good for such a move, and this is bound to impinge on the activities of Aer Lingus.

The Minister referred to the payment of £15 million equity in March 1983 and before the end of this financial year. My decision was to make the equity payment in three instalments of £10 million. I do not have any quarrel with the Minister's decision to change that and make two payments of £15 million. I hope the forecast for the coming year will come through. I am puzzled as to why there should be a decline in traffic overall, particularly if we are in a position to exploit the strength of the dollar for our tourist trade.

The Minister indicated that he would be glad if there was a build up of funds against the inevitable purchase of new aircraft in the near future. I support him on that. At least the Minister is hopefully pointing the finger in the right direction. The competition over the North Atlantic route has already had its victims in Laker and Braniff. I am aware that the economics of that operation are very difficult and for that reason I should like an indication from the Minister as to the traffic flow, separated from the other statistics, with regard to Aer Lingus.

On the question of independent airlines I regret the difficulties which forced Avair off the market. There are those who hold very strongly that the people with private companies in our State have as much right as public companies, that the Minister could have subsidised Avair to the extent of £400,000 as requested, and that there was a possibility of Avair being able to maintain itself in the market had that happened. I had consultations with Mr. Connolly of Avair when I was Minister. I did not postpone any decisions, as the Minister seemed to indicate in the course of a statement on the radio. I was not anxious to extend his remit at that time, not because Aer Lingus were opposed to it — the company were opposed to it — but because I thought he should give himself time to build up his muscle on the home front first. I regret very much what happened, particularly because of the link that was established with Derry. I have a question on the Order Paper about the subsidisation of that link. I presume the money made available or estimated will be made available if and when the service starts. I hope it is "when" rather than "if", because that had a significance which went beyond the purely economic or social ones. It also had a very strong political import. For that reason I was pleased to hear the Minister say that suggestions were coming to him about the service but because the Receiver was in he could not do anything to queer the pitch on the Receiver. It is heartening to know that some people are interested. To put it bluntly, I hope to see a Dublin-Derry service. I hope to see a Dublin-Cork, Dublin-Waterford and Dublin-Sligo service develop also.

The Minister, and the Government, are less than farseeing in some of the remarks about local and regional airports and local and regional services. I should like to commend the Minister on his sophisticated with-it approach with regard to direct broadcasting by satellite and other areas on the edge of the quickly developing technology. However, like in other Government areas, the other side of the coin is that there is no vision at all with regard to the development of regional or local airports or regional and local services. Government Ministers go all over the place to emphasise the importance of technological education, they cannot open a factory or appear on a public occasion without doing this, but the School of Engineering at University College, Dublin, which we had brought to the edge of bricks and blocks being laid has been cast aside. Out of the sophisticated side of the Government mouth we have approval of technological development, approval of direct broadcasting by satellite, of developing various services, but out of the other side there is a primitive approach to what will at the beginning of the next century be the most important service here, the development of regional and local airports and of regional and local air services.

The Minister had a word of praise for Aer Rianta. He said their considerable achievement reflected on the board, management and staff of the company. I am in total agreement with that and wish to add my congratulations to the board of Aer Rianta. The same paragraph is in this speech as was in the Minister's speech last year and by way of a caveat when the praise has been given out, namely, that it was important to bear in mind that the capital expenditure of the airport is funded directly from the Department's Vote. The Aer Rianta accounts do not make provision for interest or depreciation. In a sense it would be for the benefit of the House if that were done so that we would know not merely the apparent but the real situation with regard to the activities of Aer Rianta.

The story of Shannon's recovery is one which gives satisfaction and gratification to this side of the House because we were mainly responsible, despite bitter opposition and in the teeth of forecasts that rabbits would be running wild where the runways were being laid down, for the development of not merely Shannon Airport but of the town of Shannon. The marketing of Shannon is important. Deputies from all political parties whose constituencies surround Shannon Airport are very sensitive about this region and are quick on their feet to defend it if any danger looms. I gather Aeroflot's use of Shannon plays a substantial part in having the finances as sound as they are. The Shannon authority should market their airport wherever they can. There should be an emphasis on marketing both there and in Cork which is still a loser as the Minister indicated. The Minister mentioned the commercial activities which I interpret as the duty-free shops. They are substantial contributors to the success of Aer Rianta as I know from experience.

The Minister referred to the Connacht Regional Airport when he spoke about the allocation for regional and local airports. I have already spoken about this and think the attitude is narrow, lacks vision and will be found to be so before the century is out. The Minister is living up to the contractual obligations in the provision of £650,000 for Connacht Regional Airport. I will read what he said of the Government decision:

The Government gave careful consideration to this matter but in view of the magnitude of the budgetary problems facing them the Government decided that the most they could do was to allocate a sum not exceeding £650,000 to the airport company in 1984 to meet the existing contractual commitments of the company on the project.

This will bring total Exchequer assistance to Connacht Airport to almost £10 million and will have placed in situ a 6,000 ft. runway, a taxiway and an aircraft parking apron. The Government also decided that when this year's allocation is expended no further Exchequer contribution will be forthcoming thereafter and that no Exchequer commitment will be forthcoming to subsidise running costs.

That is a disgrace. I am not saying that there should not be due regard to capital investment; I am saying the direct opposite. I am not saying there is not an obligation on a Minister and a Government to be careful with the expenditure of taxpayers' money. What I am saying is this: in the Minister's own words there is a substantial and valuable Governmental investment in Connacht Regional Airport, and if the policy outlined in that paragraph is followed, there will be a case of criminal neglect of their investment on the part of the Government.

I proposed that there should be an inquiry into the minimum facilities and minimum expenditures needed to put the airport into action. That is the least the House should expect from the Government to protect the State's interest at the Connacht Regional Airport. I appeal to the Minister and his Minister of State who is a Connacht man to use their best efforts to see that further investment for the minimum facilities — I am not looking for a Taj Mahal — to protect the State's investment in that airport. I want to condemn that sentence in the Minister's speech which, taking it all in all, was constructive and in parts optimistic but that was a primitive approach to this problem. The fourth, fifth and sixth paragraphs dealing with local airports are along those lines. I reject them, because the lack of vision displayed by the Minister takes the good out of his speech; it recalls the type of negative approach the then Minister, the late Mr. Seán Lemass, had to listen to when he had his vision of the development of airports. He was subjected to ridicule at that time but he could see ahead. He was a man of vision and I am appealing for a little vision from the present Government in this regard. There are no rabbits in Shannon Airport now except international golfers coming and going.

I have already dealt partially with the CIE problem. I emphasised that the Dublin city services could be improved with a Dublin Transport Authority, and with all the improvements that are being made through the agency of the task force and could be made by the Dublin Transport Authority. There could be an improvement in morale and industrial relations, I have made the point that in my view we should home-in on the Dublin city services and try to have a service which will be the pride of this ancient capital city which, as I read from statistics collected by the consultative commission, was competing very well with other continental cities in the not too distant past. This can be done again. Morale and industrial relations are important as well as all the other facilities that have been made available through the agency of the task force and can be made available through the Dublin Transport Authority.

I have a question on the Order Paper concerning the railway carriages at Inchicore. I am a little dubious about what has happened up to now, the amount of money which has been spent and the number of railway carriages that have been produced. The Minister has a special interest in this matter since Inchicore is within his own constituency and I would ask him to let us know the position, how many are working on railway carriages, how many have been produced, how many are in service and how many are envisaged for the year ahead and covered by this Estimate.

The Minister gave very short shrift to the section on international affairs. I know he has a very heavy six months coming up as Minister for Transport when Ireland has the Presidency of the EEC. I am glad that the secretary of the Department is president of ECAC because, relative to the North Atlantic operation, it is a very important position. The North Atlantic has been the graveyard of two large airlines. Aer Lingus at best are wonky there and, putting it bluntly, we are giving a subsidy of £4 million this year to keep it going. The amount last year was £5 million. It is important that we hold that presidency in the hope that we will be able to use our influence with regard to the rationalisation of that transport. The savage cutting of fares, while to the advantage of the customer in some instances, has lasted only a very short time. In the end it does not solve the problem. Ireland's having the presidency of ECAC is something we should appriciate. When as Minister I was consulted with regard to this I advocated at all times that we should place as many officials as possible in these international organisations and that we should encourage our officials to take up permanent positions with them, even though it would be a loss to the country, because then we would have a foothold to utilise to our general advantage.

The problems recently encountered by our hauliers on the Continent should give us pause. I would have thought that the European Conference of Ministers of Transport, ECMT, would have been a suitable institution to deal with this problem. I hope the Minister and the Government are seeing to it that losses incurred or damages sustained by our citizens during the fracas in France and elsewhere will be made up to them by the Governments whose citizens were involved in the activities through which our hauliers lost out.

I made inquiries on the Order of Business, and came under the benign discipline of the Chair, with regard to the Oriel fishing vessel which recently got into trouble with an object or objects unknown in the Irish Sea. The Sharelga was sunk by a UK submarine and the circumstances of that sinking are known to the House. Perhaps it is not known that there is some haggling about the amount of compensation and it has not yet been paid to the fisheman and his crew. It is not an appropriate metaphor but I will use it: “live horse and you will get grass” but the grass has not come as of now. I should like to know whether there has been an admission of culpability by anybody in relation to the Oriel. I suggested yesterday that the Department of Foreign Affairs should inquire of the major powers who have submarines operating in the Irish Sea whether any of their vessels were involved. I know that for security reasons they are not anxious to tell, but at least the approach should be made.

Perhaps there should be an international convention, although military people are very suspicious of such conventions or any interference with their freedom of operation. An international approach should be made because it is nothing short of scandalous that one of our citizens about his normal activity, fishing for demersal fish, is chucked and pulled around the Irish Sea. He does not know who was responsible, but he was very lucky that his ship was not sunk as the Sharelga was sunk and lucky that he did not lose his life. This is a matter which must be addressed by us. As a small country with practically no military punch we are better suited to do that than most others because as a neutral country our motivation will not be suspect. Our citizens require some kind of formal international protection in this regard.

In relation to local and regional airports, I hope a philosophy has not developed whereby the only important developments are the major ones at Dublin, Cork and Shannon, and that Sligo, Connacht Regional Airport, Letterkenny, Waterford and Abbeyshrule are not left out of consideration. I intend to live well into the next century and before I die I expect these smaller airports will be in use.

I am sorry that Aer Arann have cancelled their Shannon-Dublin service. In fairness to the Minister, he has expanded the role of both Avair and Aer Arann but unfortunately Aer Arann are not able to continue this service. It is pleasing that Aer Lingus have made a deal with Shorts for the 30-seater 330 turbo plane. There was a suspicion that Aer Lingus wanted to be rid of Avair so that they could involve themselves in shorter routes. That was stated and I do not know what substance there was to it. Naturally the large jets are not suitable for shorter flights and as far as I know at one stage Aer Lingus did not show any interest in them. I suppose this would underline the suspicion. The fact that they are dealing with Shorts is a consolation and with regard to the routes through Derry and Belfast and Belfast Car Ferries it carries more than purely social, transport and financial considerations. It carries political ones as well which, to me as an Ulsterman, are important.

The Minister did not mention the Tour Operators and Travel Agents Bill with which I was very heavily concerned when in office and which is now the 1982 Act. I should like to know how it is going. I gather it is going well. Otherwise we would hear more about it. I regarded it as being very important from the point of view of the protection of the consumer and our good name abroad. Cowboys were getting us a very bad name as a result of their activities and letting people down.

I had a deputation recently from PAMBO, the private operators. It is very difficult not to yield to their logic. They say they want an opportunity to compete on an equitable footing with public transport in the services they are providing. The Minister mentioned that he was liberalising freight transport. I ask him to listen to and take into consideration the proposals being put by PAMBO as of now. I have not got enough time to elaborate on that. No doubt the Minister will receive representations from PAMBO.

I want to emphasise that I attach great importance to the whole transport area. The most recently published report by the Economic and Social Research Institute on employment indicates that, in talking about competitiveness, we have been concentrating foolishly on the wages paid to workers but that transport costs, for example, are also very important to competitiveness. We should keep that in mind.

I had to take the Minister to task and castigate him last year with regard to Cork Harbour. I am glad democracy has prevailed. I suppose that with the presence of the Minister for Foreign Affairs in Cork city he was get-at-able by the citizens. Therefore, there has been a change and the investment is going ahead. I should like the Minister to let us know what the position is with regard to the Irish Spruce. On what date will we be taking delivery?

The Ostlanna Iompair Éireann saga played itself out during the year. I am puzzled about it. I am surprised and disappointed that the Minister did not mention it during the course of his speech. The Minister announced that CERT were about to take over those hotels. CERT have not taken them over. A board have been appointed to run them. I have a question on the Order Paper about this. I should like to know what riding instructions, so to speak, were given to the board by the Minister. I should like to know what obligations the Minister has put on the board. Has he told them they can sell off some of the hotels if they find suitable buyers? I should like to know how much was received for the Belfast hotel.

Has the Minister told the board that they are expected to make a profit? Has he put any time limit on this? I know the hotel industry in general is in difficulty. Above all I want to know about the substantial debts which had accrued to OIE. Were they paid off by the Minister? There is no mention of this in the Estimate speech. Are the new board expected to carry the £14 million on their backs as they start off with new operations? I think the figure is £14 million. Have the Government paid off the £14 million debt?

The Deputy's time is up.

I am pleased that I had an opportunity to discuss this Estimate. I have other questions about the Ocean Bank, Federal Express and the SAS concession at Dublin airport, but time has run out on me. I hope the Department will continue to provide a service for the community which will help us in our international operations and particularly in our exports, which will keep us competitive and provide our citizenry with a good service.

There are many aspects of the policies in the new Department of Communications which I should like to discuss such as privatisation across the whole transport policy, the liberalisation of transport regulations especially concerning freight and the whole question of Avair. I understand the debate on the Estimate has to conclude today. Therefore, I will restrict my comments to one subject which is one of the disgraces of successive Governments, that is, the Harbours Vote.

I am speaking specifically about the allocation made for Rosslare Harbour in County Wexford. I know Deputy Leyden in his former capacity as Minister of State visited Rosslare and is aware of the difficulties, as is the former Minister Deputy Wilson. The Minister of State Deputy Nealon is also aware of them, and the Minister will be visiting Rosslare tomorrow. CIE are the port authority and the Department of Communications are vested with the power to grant-aid Rosslare Harbour. I am very sorry to have to detail the problems we have there.

If we look at CIE's annual report for 1982 we see that there is no doubt about the viability and the profitability of Rosslare Harbour. In 1981 after interest repayment and the repayment of loan charges the profit was £339,000. In 1982 it was £85,000. The projection for 1983 is £195,000 after interest charges are paid. Between 1981 and 1982 there was an increase in the number of passengers of 6.8 per cent or 52,000 passengers.

We are speaking about the third largest and the fastest growing port in the country. We are speaking about the primary asset of County Wexford and the south eastern region. We are speaking about a national asset which is the gateway to Europe. With its ideal geographical location it is the area where future growth will take place due to its proximity, relatively speaking, to other ports such as Le Havre and other ports on the Continent and the British mainland. As I have said, the Minister is visiting Rosslare tomorrow. I hope he will be mindful of the comments I am making today because he will hear them loud and clear tomorrow. Before I detail the case for Rosslare I should say that an allocation of £300,000 was made this year under the Harbours Vote, but it was too little and too late.

There is a very active Rosslare Harbour Development Committee representative of all strands of County Wexford life — the local authority, all public representatives, trades councils, chambers of commerce and the local Harbour Development Board. They have put forward many long-term proposals for Rosslare Harbour. They were the first to moot a free port idea three or four years ago. There was also the question of doing a SFADCo operation and making it a special area of administration to deal with the problems. They also had an input into national ports policy.

I will not deal with any of that today. I will just deal with the short-term, immediate, essential, minimal requirements. I want to put those detailed requirements on the record of the House. There is an urgent need for a proper gangway at the second berth. There are two berths in Rosslare. The second one is a new one. There is no proper gangway at the moment. We have the farcical situation that passengers disembarking from ships from the second berth have to get off on the same ramp as lorries and other vehicles. Not only is this crazy but it is hazardous and dangerous. There have been many complaints from consumers and shipping operators on this subject. They get out at the stern of the boat through this vehicle ramp. A proper gangway is required on the second berth.

In relation to the bus facilities to ferry the passengers from the ship to the mainland, we have a Wanderly Wagon type bus which is over 20 years old. What is required is an airport type bus with wide central loading entrance doors. I understand that for a sum in the region of £45,000 such a bus can be acquired. We will take a secondhand bus. We will take any bus except one similar to our present Wanderly Wagon. I understand there are proposals to deal with this. No amount of emphasis on my part could stress the urgency of the problem.

There is need for proper surfacing both on the access road to the second berth and on the overall parking area. For a sum of £20,000 this problem could be solved. Mostly these are unfinished works that should have been completed in the original development scheme. The rolling stock is run down and needs to be improved immediately. Arrival times should be monitored continuously. We had the ridiculous situation where, on the arrival of the boat, the train had just left by the time the passengers had disembarked. It was a simple timetable problem. I hope it is a problem that has been resolved. We also need an adjustable gangway on the original berth. At present there is a fixed gangway which is extremely dangerous especially at high tide conditions. What is required is a mobile hydraulic gangway, and for £158,000 I understand this can be obtained immediately. Also required is a covered access way at pier level. I understand it would be far cheaper at pier level. We have the situation where there is no cover for people disembarking from the boat to the terminal building. They have no shelter. Surely it is not unreasonable to request that these people should not be soaked on disembarking or embarking. There is need for a public telephone kiosk and a proper public address system in different languages, something that is quite common in any reasonable railway station, with the times of arrival and departure given in the relevant languages. There is need for a central control tower for traffic management. There is need for new offices.

Now I am not talking about airy-fairy hypothetical long-term improvements. I am talking of what is urgently needed as of today and was urgently needed as of five years ago. There is need for new offices for CIE staff and customs clearance staff to extend the customs accommodation covering customs and excise and immigration offices. I understand CIE has put forward to the Department a new layout at a cost of £175,000. In the long term we need a new terminal building. The present one is totally unsatisfactory. We need a new building that would encompass the shipping offices, which are presently in prefab buildings, to encompass amenity facilities, catering facilities, waiting and rest rooms. All of this is in the long term. I realise that. Where toilets for outward bound passengers are concerned we have had a timber structure since 1965. This is the only toilet facility for outward bound passengers. We have a caravan since 1965 for the provision of catering facilities. Are we living in the Stone Age? I understand that for a total of £160,000 a new building could be provided to cover all these things. In 1981 a storm wall was erected. It was part of the development scheme, but, like so many other things, it was only half done. It can be completed at a cost of £30,000. There is urgent need in the winter time with large scale traffic for public lighting to join up with the county council lighting system from the village of Kilrane up to the port offices. That can be done for a sum of £10,000. To expedite arrangements particularly at peak periods there is need for extra customs and excise staff and there is need to extend the freight compound and the marshalling zone.

We have had piecemeal development despite the spectacular growth in Rosslare in relation to traffic and passengers, despite the Department and despite CIE. What is required is a long-term plan and phased development. There is an immediate requirement for £1 million for 1985. We got £300,000 but that is too little too late. What would £1 million get? It would get a covered gangway to the second berth for £350,000, a mobile hydraulic gangway, £50,000, resurfacing £25,000, the replacement of the Wanderly Wagon, £45,000, replacing the wooden 1965 temporary structure, £60,000, accommodation for customs and excise duties officers, £175,000, completing the stone wall, £30,000 and finally the extension of the freight compound, £165,000. That adds up to £1 million. There are other long-term plans which come to a total of £1.5 million, but what we really require now is £700,000 in the 1985 Estimate.

Someone may say I am a Deputy quibbling about parochial needs and this is one of a multitude of requests for money. How do we in Rosslare justify this? We justify it on many grounds, but primarily because it is a productive investment. Deputy Wilson's crocodile tears about Connacht Regional Airport sickened my stomach when I think of the possible return from Rosslare. When we look at CIE's annual report the only bright spot in terms of possibility is Rosslare Harbour. Indeed the money now earned by Rosslare is actually being used to prop up other lame ducks within CIE. A great deal of lip service is paid to tourism and from that point of view alone, because of the potential from tourism, these developments in Rosslare would be more than justified. The £23 million spent by Bord Fáilte on advertising will be more than offset because of the appalling facilities at Rosslare, which can only detract from the whole propaganda exercise.

There is one aspect to justify our claim. Let us examine the situation of Ringaskiddy. Now I do not mean to be begrudging here. I want to be factual and realistic in my assessment of a comparable situation. In the Ringaskiddy situation there is an element of totally unfair and uneven-handed administration. In Ringaskiddy there is a new ferry terminal at a cost of £138,000. This was formally opened in May 1983. Every bit is covered. Whether you are embarking or disembarking you are not affected by one single drop of rain. There is a special trolley system to take baggage. There is a hydraulic gangway for both passengers and roll-on roll-off freight. What we cannot get for passengers Ringaskiddy has for freight. The figures make quite shameful reading. I want to be quite clear and concise about this so that no one will be under any illusion. In Rosslare in March 1978 the Government decided there would be a second phased development. A second berth was to be erected and the estimated cost of that was £3.75 million. The Government said they would give a 30 per cent grant and that at that time came to £1.125 million. The actual cost to date is £7.025 million but, unfortunately, the grant remained the same, which works out at a net grant of 16 per cent. CIE put up the remainder of about £5 million. We in Wexford, the humble people we are, put up with that.

We might then look at Cork — and remember we are talking about £1.125 million for Wexford — where the overall cost of the harbour development scheme at Ringaskiddy cost £17.9 million. What did they receive by way of grant? Was it the £1.125 million, or was it the 30 per cent we sought when we received only 16 per cent? No, they received a staggering 88 per cent grant, £15.8 million, but that was not sufficient; they were only beginning at that stage. The cost of the new ferry terminal was £8.25 million, the Exchequer grant for which was £6.6 million, representing 80 per cent of the cost. Therefore, there are total figures of £15.8 million and £6.6 million by way of grant while all we could get was a derisory £1.125 million. Where is there any element of justice in that? One must pose the question: does Wexford, to get fair play, have to go to the National Manpower Service to recruit a Taoiseach for County Wexford? Lest I am ever canvassing for the Seanad in Cork, lest my friends in Cork should be sensitive to my complaints about them, I should say that what they received in Cork was less than that received in other areas. For example, Arklow received a 100 per cent grant to build a harbour. What Rosslare Harbour received was derisory and insulting. If we translated what happened in Cork to Rosslare Harbour, at the 80 per cent level of grant, then instead of receiving £1.125 million, we would have received £5.62 million; therefore, we were over £4,500,000 short. If Maggie Thatcher can look for her money back I do not see why Wexford cannot look for its money back.

In fairness we have an unanswerable case to put to the Government — there has been uneven-handed administration. I should say I am not blaming this Minister for it. I do not want to go into the shipping figures because, if one did so in regard to Cork, very readily one would have a case to be referred to the Committee on Public Expenditure because, while the sailings from Rosslare are in the region of 1,200 to 1,400 annually, I should not like to tell the House what are the corresponding sailings from Cork but they constitute a small fraction only of those from Rosslare. But, even if we took all of that on the chin and said: well, we are the poor relations in relation to this, just imagine our reaction this year when, as the final straw, Cork — having received £15.8 million — turned around contending that they are really in a bad way now. Of course there are fewer unemployed there than in Wexford. But they then decide to build a deep water berth in Cork, they commence a whole new scheme with £2 million allocated this year, making our £300,000 look derisory. They are off on the same gravy train again. Surely people can understand the sensitivity of the Wexford people to such a decision.

I do not wish to bemoan Wexford's difficulties but I do wish to put the facts and figures to this House. The history of our case is as follows: March 1978 the then Minister for Transport authorised a development scheme to build a second berth at Rosslare, the estimated cost of which was £3.75 million, a 30 per cent grant was approved, the balance to be paid by CIE. Six years later to the very month I am here today saying that £7 million has been spent but we received the same grant, not percentagewise, but the same £1.125 million. Now the situation is that CIE have run out of money. They say: "look, no more development, we have put up the money for all the development so far, you must go to the Department", and that in respect of a port that has developed in leaps and bounds because of its attractions, location and services in spite of the appalling facilities about which I have spoken. We now look to the Department to move forward. Rosslare Harbour is a national primary asset with an outstanding record and performance on the classic passenger side and on the freight side. In spite of everything it has shown sustained growth and has proved itself to be viable not alone in relation to investment but in producing a splendid rate of return on any investment. We now need the capital finance to provide the essential facilities I have outlined. I hope that when the Minister visits the constituency tomorrow a new beginning can take place resulting in a redressing of the unfair imbalance that has obtained over the last decade.

I am delighted to be given an opportunity to debate the Estimate for the Department of Communications. I wish Deputy Yates and other Wexford Deputies success in their campaign for the improvement of Rosslare Harbour. As he said, I had an opportunity of visiting Rosslare harbour in 1982 when I was impressed by the campaign of the Rosslare Development Association in promoting the development of the harbour there. I hope the whole position in that regard will be clarified. I know when there, I requested a consultation regarding the legal framework of Rosslare Harbour and its ownership because it is combined with a British harbour. I hope those matters can be resolved when the Minister visits Rosslare tomorrow.

This Estimate affords all Members an opportunity of discussing a very important new Department, that of Communications, the newest Department in the Public Service. In his office the Minister has at its disposal the services of two of the most experienced, efficient and effective secretaries, the Secretary, Norman McMahon and his Deputy Secretary, Seán O'Kelly, both having tremendous experience in transport and communications, bringing that experience to this newest Department. The Minister and his Minister of State are very fortunate in having the services of people of such experience and calibre available to them.

We are debating this Estimate just three months since the establishment of An Post and An Bord Telecom. Since their inception on 1 January 1984 both organisations have brought a fresh, dynamic approach to the postal and telecommunications services, which is what we expected, hoped and had planned. I shall not go into the background of the decision to set up both semi-State organisations. We in Fianna Fáil are very proud of our involvement, contribution and indeed policy decision which was responsible for their establishment. I am delighted also with what I might describe as the lack of teething difficulties with regard to the transfer of the 30,000 people from the old Department of Posts and Telegraphs to An Post and An Bord Telecom. It has been a very smooth transition. We should compliment the chairmen of both boards, Mr. Michael Smurfit and Mr. Fergal Quinn, the chief executives, Mr. Tom Byrne and the outgoing chief executive, Mr. Tom Garvey, on the way they handled the personnel matters since taking office. In that regard I must say I regret the departure of Tom Garvey as chief executive of An Post. I wish him success in the EEC. I personally regret his departure because of the experience he acquired since being appointed the interim chief executive. However, I should like to avail of this opportunity to welcome the new chief executive of An Post and wish him success in his appointment. I know he has had enormous experience in semi-State organisations. With the personnel involved in An Post I know that, within a short period of time, he will attain the necessary expertise and experience to advise and assist the board in the running of their affairs. One of the initiatives which has taken place was the setting up of the penny post. That was a good public relations exercise. Unfortunately, it did not last longer than a day. I hope there will be further reductions in charges for special occasions over the years.

The St. Patrick's Day special card scheme was welcomed by the public and well supported. The concept is a good one, but it should be pointed out that the manufacturers of cards were particularly concerned about this and were at a great loss because they had bought in stocks in advance. I suggest through the Minister to An Post that they should consider bringing in a special stamp in addition to a special card. In 1985 I hope a special St. Patrick's Day stamp will be brought out which would cost less than an ordinary stamp. This could be used by the public when sending cards made by other manufacturers. I understand that An Post hope to bring forward Christmas cards this year similar to those brought out for St. Patrick's Day. There is a case to be made for such an innovation, but I would recommend that there should be reduced postal charges at Christmas. In that way there would not be any competition with card manufacturers.

The Divine Word Missionaries produce some of the finest Christmas cards. They are in my constituency. They would be seriously affected if An Post brought out a special card with a special postal rate. Many jobs would be in jeopardy. I recommend the issue of a special Christmas card stamp costing, say, 15p. This would allow people to buy cards from other manufacturers. It would increase revenue for An Post and would maintain jobs in the production of Irish-made Christmas cards. The innovations of An Post have restored confidence in the service and have given encouragement to the staff of that organisation.

The postal service has provided a most important framework of communications over the years. There was a postal service before we had telephones, radio or television. It is important that this semi-State organisation be given every encouragement in bringing forward these innovations.

Bord Telecom Éireann also brought forward a special rate for St. Patrick's weekend. We do not have any reports on how successful the reduced international telephone rates were, but perhaps on special occasions, including Christmas, Easter and other holidays where the service would not be used by business, we could encourage greater domestic use of this service. The new proposals by Bord Telecom Éireann in not requiring advance payment of telephone connection charges is a welcome change. The installation fee of £180 is excessive and makes it very expensive for a subscriber to connect into the service. The advance payment system which was in operation made it necessary for a subscriber to pay in the region of £500 or £1,000 for a connection. Many people refused connections because of the high charges. I recommend that they consider the question of the installation fee further.

Billing is a serious bone of contention and my colleague, Deputy Wilson, outlined the problems he encountered with telephone charges. We should seriously consider having an inquiry into the billing system. There is widespread discontent with it. The last time I put down a question about this there were a number of complaints being examined. Perhaps in the region of 45,000 accounts were being queried. Will the Minister indicate the exact position regarding the number of accounts which are being queried at this stage and the number which are in dispute? Many accounts are justifiably disputed.

When I was in the Department I suggested bringing in a two-monthly billing system. Quarterly billing is unsatisfactory. The amount is very large and it is also very hard to trace calls that may have been made over a three-month period. A two-monthly billing system would ensure that a telephone bill did not coincide with an electricity bill. Early payment of accounts should be encouraged and the example of the ESB in this regard should be seriously considered. The system operated by the ESB could be studied. If An Bord Telecom combined with a voluntary organisation it would be of great assistance to the voluntary organisation as such bodies are always in need of funds. The voluntary organisation could be varied and every three months a different one could avail of the prizes which would be offered. The Olympic fund is in need of extra support at present and this is another area which could be considered. However, other organisations such as the Rehabilitation Institute which the ESB supported could be involved. People would then pay their accounts on time.

I welcome the proposal by Bord Telecom Éireann to provide details of all phone calls made. There should not be any additional charge for this detail. The subscriber is entitled to the details of all phone calls which he or she makes. It is a very straightforward matter and the fact that there are so many digital exchanges at this stage will make it possible to bring this about in the near future. That is the only way to allay the fears of the general public in relation to telephone charges.

We proposed the bringing forward of the private meter system. How many private meters have been installed in the last year? I have no evidence of any of these meters being installed in my constituency. These would allay the fears of people who feel that they are being grossly overcharged.

I would like the international consultancy report prepared by the Minister to be made available to every Member of this Oireachtas. That report must be made public. Why have we so little faith and confidence in ourselves that we must obtain so many outside consultancies for a matter such as telephone accounts? The public here are the ones who have the complaints, and in our own country we have the expertise to examine the telephone billing system and to come up with solutions. The international telecommunications consultants have prepared and submitted a report to the Minister, it seems, but there is little point in having that report with the Minister only. It should be in the hands of every Dáil Deputy and available to people who have serious complaints about the telephone service. The public are relying on the individual meters provided at the telephone exchanges. The Minister coming into office opened up to some extent the telephone exchanges, but where a person has a grievance against Bord Telecom Éireann he should be in a position to inspect and examine his own meter in the telephone exchange. This is the only way to allay his fears that his meter is not operating satisfactorily, or at least he should be able to obtain advice and assistance from an engineer and have that matter examined. Many people fear that when you make a telephone call, make a connection, ring somebody, and that connection sets off the mechanism to record that call, it may record an excessive amount of time. I have had experience with constituents who have had great difficulty in proving to the Department that the metered calls were totally excessive. It is necessary only to go back over two or three years to get the average number of calls made by a subscriber and to prove that nothing in that period had increased his use of the telephone service.

The public are very genuine when it comes to this issue. I have examined these matters personally and I have found to a large extent that something may have malfunctioned at some time. I appeal to Bord Telecom Éireann to be sympathetic to representations made by public representatives. I have received representations from colleagues here at the Oireachtas regarding the response to representations to Bord Telecom Éireann and An Post. I have no grounds personally for complaint because I have had excellent response from Bord Telecom Éireann and An Post. I believe that the arrangements with Bord Telecom Éireann have, in a sense, decentralised the queries system and that there is now direct response to representations from the area managers. This is a proper innovation, and it is good for customer relations that any semi-State organisation should respond to representations of politicians. People elected by the people surely represent the people and should be responded to by any semi-State organisation. We in this House set up Bord Telecom Éireann and An Post. We are, in a sense, the political masters here who placed confidence in the hands of two boards and two chief executives. In return my colleagues are asking for a good, full, detailed response to representations. I am referring to representations regarding the installation of telephones. When the Minister and the Ministers of State were in charge of the Department representatives felt that they received a very detailed response to representations. My experience has been very good with Bord Telecom Éireann and An Post but some Deputies have had grounds for complaint. I appeal to both boards and both chief executives to facilitate Deputies who, after all, are only representing the people. They are entitled to receive a detailed response to representations they make on behalf of their constituents. It is in the interest of both boards and of consumer relations that the boards may communicate directly with their consumers, but if a Deputy has been entrusted to take up a case on behalf of a consumer, then that constituent would feel it in order that communications regarding a problem would come via the public representative who made the representation. That is a small point but an important one in relation to communications generally.

I note with interest the point made by the chief executive of Bord Telecom Éireann in a circular to Dáil Deputies that he may be arranging for consultations at local level. I would welcome that. Where there is rapid growth in telecommunications it would be quite in order on even a regional basis that Bord Telecom Éireann would call a meeting of Deputies, Senators, and councillors for the purpose of acquainting the public representatives of developments in their region so that they would be in a better position to familiarise themselves with the problems regarding the development of telecommunication services and in their turn could brief their constituents in relation to problems. The slight teething problems which have arisen and given rise to complaint by public representatives will be ironed out in future. Bord Telecom Éireann and An Post are anxious to facilitate public representatives but even more anxious to facilitate their consumers. Maybe they feel that there is an unnecessary delay in providing information on communications to public representatives. I know that they will get a full report of this debate, and I urge them to bear in mind that TDs are elected by the people to represent the people and by making representations to their TDs the public show confidence in their representatives, and to be responsive to representations at all times.

I will make no comment whatsoever in relation to the difficulties which the Committee of Public Accounts and Bord Telecom Éireann had recently. I understand that there were misunderstandings on all sides and that the matter has been resolved to the satisfaction of all parties concerned. I hope that it will not arise in the future, in other words, that communications will have improved between the Committee of Public Accounts — I was a member of that committee at one stage and I do not recall ever having the active watch-dog arrangement which is now under way — and Bord Telecom Éireann and that the relations between them will be better from now on.

An Post also have some innovations. My colleague, Deputy Wilson, referred to the post bus, an innovation brought in in County Clare during our term in office. There is great potential for the development of the post bus concept because of the need for communications in rural areas. The post bus will travel right throughout the rural areas and will be available to carry the general public, and that fact is very welcome. I hope that the Minister or Minister of State can give a report on this. The top personnel from the Department who are here will know the up-to-date position of the developments regarding the postal bus service. Has the Minister any proposals to expand that service in other rural areas because those are the developments which have great growth potential for An Post? He should also extend the services in relation to developments in facsimile reproduction of correspondence which was at an advanced stage of planning when I was in the Department. I would like up-to-date details of progress in that matter also.

We come to the area of local broadcasting, which is one of the most live issues in the Department of Communications. The Minister has indicated certain proposals for local radio. It is only fair that I should criticise both Ministers for the long delay in bringing forward the local radio Bill. We in Fianna Fáil on 8 June 1983 brought before the House a local broadcasting authority Bill which closely resembled the proposals outlined by Minister Nealon. I see great confusion between statements of both Ministers in relation to philosophy and policy. On the one hand, the Minister recently indicated that he would have only seven stations, which is pre-empting discussions which have taken place before the Oireachtas Committee on Legislation. He, in turn, has contradicted the Minister of State here present, Deputy Nealon, who stated on 12 August 1983 that there would be 30 radio stations. That was reported in the Irish Press of that date. The Minister has today stated that the new authority will be responsible for deciding on the number. That is a reasonable approach which I would accept. When you give power to an authority, they will ultimately have the responsibility of deciding on the location of stations.

In relation to the point mentioned by the Minister of the jamming of radio signals in Dublin by RTE, the difficulty which has arisen is the direct responsibility of Government, who have delayed the setting up of a local radio authority and the issuance of licences. This has led to confusion, particularly in this city but throughout the country, over the last few years in relation to broadcasting and the mushrooming of illegal broadcasting stations. I refer to a statement which Minister Mitchell made on 3 June 1983, published in the Evening Herald, that pirate radio stations can stay on the air until licensed radio is introduced, unless they interfere with the emergency air waves and that Government policy is to phase out the illegal stations at the same time as the introduction of new licensed stations. That statement has never been denied. It has led to the continuation of irregular broadcasting in Dublin and, in turn, to frustration within RTE. This has led RTE, possibly, to carry out tests on frequencies which are at present being operated by illegal radio stations in Dublin. This Dáil must consider the problems which have arisen. There is ambivalence on the part of politicians in general, but the Government in particular. The majority of Government Deputies have availed of so-called pirates to promote their own message and party at election time, but after the election they forget about their responsibility and the recognition which they gave to these stations previously. As spokesman for communications for Fianna Fáil, I have never availed of the illegal broadcasting service here to broadcast personally. As spokesman, I have felt unable to take part in broadcasting on unlicensed stations, but I cannot say the same for the members of the Government.

The Coalition are in Government since December 1982, yet in March 1984 we are no further along the road to having a licensing system. It is not RTE's role to be legislators. They are a semi-State organisation with responsibility for broadcasting, radio and television. They are the legalised national broadcasting service, with a very large workforce of 2,000. They are frustrated at the delay in bringing forward this legislation. I ask them, despite this frustration, to desist from taking action which would not be in keeping with their high standards in the past. I appreciate their frustration, but the job of Government lies with the Oireachtas, not in Montrose, Donnybrook. The Government, in particular, have responsibility for introducing this legislation. RTE as a highly responsible semi-State organisation have a duty to implement their business according to the law. It is not for them to take actions which, in a sense, would be contrary to Government policy. The Government can deny it all they like, but it is their policy to allow for the present irregular broadcasting which has arisen.

The Minister should clearly state if he gave a directive to RTE to desist from broadcasting on channels 101.5 and 100.5 FM. Did he allocate those channels to RTE? Is he aware that broadcasts and tests are taking place on these channels? Has he given a directive in the past week to RTE not to broadcast on those channels pending the introduction of legislation to regulate broadcasting? Those are the questions which the Minister should answer to allay the fears of people whose jobs are being affected because of the difficulties which have arisen. I sympathise with RTE in their frustration, but it is not for them to have a battle of the air waves in Dublin. It is not constructive, it is counter-productive. We are the people who should be debating the legislation, ensuring that it is implemented and the law is being kept. It is not the job of a semi-State organisation to take upon themselves the control of broadcasting. The Minister has direct responsibility in this regard and his Minister of State is also directly involved.

Debate adjourned.
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