Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 5 Apr 1984

Vol. 349 No. 8

Select Committee on Crime, Lawlessness and Vandalism: First Report.

Dr. Woods

I am pleased to have the honour, as Chairman, to introduce the Committee's First Report entitled Neighbourhood Watch as a Scheme for Community Involvement in Policing. I hope this debate will demonstrate a willingness on the part of this House to come to terms with the problem of crime and that there will be a positive response from the Minister to the committee's recommendations.

While the committee was set up in July 1983 it was not until December that its own full-time clerk and typist were appointed. The committee consider it essential, if they are to make any real inroad on the areas covered by their orders of reference, that they be in a position to employ consultants and we have decided to have our Orders of Reference amended to enable us to do so. We hope we will get co-operation in that respect.

At our initial meeting the members considered how best to tackle the very wide range of items which could be considered under our Orders of Reference and which deal with such aspects of:

(a) the administration of justice,

(b) the implementation of the criminal law, and

(c) existing legislation

as affect the personal safety and security of persons in their homes, on the streets and in public places.

The members considered the alarming increase in crime over the past number of years which, coupled with a falling detection rate, has created a general concern on the part of all citizens of a drift towards a general state of lawlessness. It was agreed that the Garda alone could not tackle this problem with any real prospect of success; there are 11,338 gardaí in the country and they cannot realistically be expected to be everywhere. It therefore fell to the Members to consider how the community could improve, on a practical level, the assistance which it provided to the gardaí to enable them to carry out their functions. The committee decided that it would concentrate on the topic of community policing with particular reference initially to the system of neighbourhood watch.

We had a meeting with the Garda Commissioner and other senior Garda officers to discuss various aspects of the crime problem and of community policing. I would like to thank Commissioner Wren, and his officers, for discussing these matters with the committee. It is, to the best of my knowledge, the first time that Members of this House have had the opportunity to officially discuss the crime problem with the Garda authorities. A forum which allows elected representatives to discuss matters affecting the personal safety of the community with the Garda authorities is a very welcome development.

The committee discussed the topic of a community approach at a number of meetings and also considered the recent tendency towards groups of concerned citizens wishing to take a more active role in the fight against crime. There must be a new emphasis in the approach to solving the problem and in this approach the obvious good-will and concern of the community should be recognised and utilised to assist the Garda.

The report deals with three ways in which the community can more actively assist the Garda. These include:

(1) Crime Prevention Committees,

(2) Neighbourhood Watch,

(3) Civilian Observation Patrols.

With regard to crime prevention committees the committee consider it essential and are recommending that a crime prevention committee be established in any area where community policing schemes are being introduced. These committees would be representative of local interests, for example, residents' associations, elected representatives, official organisations involved in social activities, voluntary groups and local gardaí especially community relations staff and juvenile liaison officers. Representatives of ACRA — the Association of Combined Residents' Associations — NATO — National Association of Tenants Organisations — and other community organisations should consider how they can best assist the community by becoming involved in crime prevention committees.

The functions of these committees would include:

co-ordinating the response of the local community to crime prevention activities in their area;

providing a formal means of communication between the community and the Garda;

the set-up and control of neighbourhood watch and civilian observation patrol schemes;

co-ordinating the response of State and local authorities and voluntary groups to the needs of a particular community; and

arranging for research and study into the causes of crime in an area.

The question of research into the causes of crime was considered important by the committee.

The crime prevention committees being representative of various interest groups and disciplines, would be ideal bodies to study the crime problems of their particular community area. General statements are often made attributing criminal activity to unemployment, poor housing conditions or social inequalities. However, such generalisations are not particularly effective in offering short-term solutions to the problems facing the community. What is required is for these committees to study the crime situation in their own area. There is no doubt but that different areas have different problems. Some areas have a large drug-related crime problem whereas in others the problem may be vandalism. Some areas have large teenage populations. Others have high densities of elderly people. Each area will require different forms of policing and different crime prevention measures.

The members of crime prevention committees could study the particular types of crime which they are experiencing and try to analyse the reason for the various crimes. Having identified the various categories of crime a study could be made of the offenders engaged in criminal activity. This could consider their ages, their background and family circumstances and the possible explanations for their criminal activity.

A study by the Medico-Social Research Board into drug abuse in the north-central Dublin area in 1982-83 revealed that the prevalence to heroin abuse in the 15 to 24 age group was 10 per cent. This study showed that in half of the cases one or both parents were dead, or separated; only four out of 88 were employed at the time of the survey while 64 were compulsorily unemployed; only four out of the 88 left school with any kind of a certificate. Only when the community and the authorities are aware of the causes of crime can effective steps be taken to tackle the root of the problem. The crime prevention committees should have access to funds provided in the community policing budgetary allocation for the purpose of arranging studies into the local crime problems.

Immediate steps to tackle crime problems should include the provision of accommodation for young persons who get into trouble with the law because of the lack of parental control and who are in need of care in such a setting. The committee were advised that there are about 50 identifiable young offenders in the Dublin inner city area who are responsible for about half of the crime in the area. If these youngsters could be put into care it would have a very significant impact on the level of crime.

The second suggestion is to strengthen the juvenile liaison officer service and to provide the necessary resources to enable them to perform their duties. This scheme provides an alternative to prosecution for offenders under 17 years of age and involves the rehabilitation of young people in conflict with the law, guiding potential delinquents and all aspects of youth work. This scheme has been in operation since 1963 and during 1982 just over 2,300 juveniles were admitted to the scheme. During 1982 juvenile liaison officers paid a total of almost 23,000 visits to the homes of juveniles, 4,500 visits to boys' clubs and attended at almost 4,000 lectures and meetings.

Juveniles account for about one-fifth of all crime and the juvenile liaison scheme is ideally placed to deal with these offenders. However there are only 70 juvenile liaison officers to cover the entire country, 26 being assigned to the Dublin area. It costs about £440 per week to maintain one person in prison. This is equivalent to the cost of employing two juvenile liaison officers. Each juvenile liaison officer could supervise about 50 juveniles at a time. The Juvenile Liaison Officer Scheme could deal with 100 juveniles for the amount that it costs to maintain one person in prison. There should be a significant investment in the Juvenile Liaison Officer Scheme as a cost-effective method of tackling the crime problem.

An expanded juvenile liaison scheme should provide a significant input into the work of the crime prevention committees. Emphasis needs to be placed on active involvement with various youth activities and with visiting schools. It is essential that the Garda become more identifiable with the youth of the country and, by doing so, seek to improve community relations. The juvenile liaison scheme is often regarded as the poor relation within the Garda Síochána. This approach must be changed and the emphasis on the scheme significantly increased to enable it to deal effectively with this most important area. Crime prevention is an essential feature of the role of the Garda in the future.

There are a number of alternatives for offenders who are prosecuted in the courts including the welfare service, community service orders, hostels and prisons. The probation and welfare service provides a probation work and related service to the courts. The work involves carrying out pre-sentence assessments for the courts, supervising offenders in the community who are referred by the courts and providing a counselling service to offenders and their families. There are about 155 officers attached to this service.

The procedures for community services orders are in the process of being introduced and will provide an alternative to custodial accommodation. Offenders will be required to undertake work which will be of benefit to the community and which will be a more sensible way for an offender to repay his debt to society. This scheme must be introduced as quickly as possible and its progress monitored to ensure its effectiveness. While other offenders may be sentenced to custodial accommodation and have no immediate relevance to the functions of the crime prevention committees, they will eventually return to the community and the community must be prepared and ready to accept them.

The Garda must be actively involved in the community to be in a position to assist those who have passed through the judicial system and return to the community. It will be essential to provide some worthwhile employment or perhaps apprenticeship schemes for such persons. A greater emphasis needs to be placed on ensuring that they are provided with the opportunity to avoid criminal activity.

The neighbourhood watch scheme involves a minimum of active participation on behalf of the community. Members of a neighbourhood watch scheme become more aware of activity in their own area and observe and report suspicious and/or criminal activity to the Garda. It is aimed particularly at petty and opportunist crime and vandalism.

The report outlines practical examples of the steps members can take to make it more difficult for criminals to engage in criminal activity. Consideration could be given in the framing of the new draft building regulations to ensure an adequate level of physical security, window and door locks etc., in all private houses and other buildings. The basic designing of houses and the lay-out of housing estates needs to be examined to see how these matters could be improved upon so as to reduce the opportunity for criminal activity.

While the Garda authorities should create an awareness of the potential of the scheme, the initiative for a scheme must come from the residents with the Garda providing the necessary support. The committee are concerned that there may not be sufficient manpower on the beat, telephone lines into Dublin city Garda stations or adequate transport to respond to calls for assistance and they have sought details from the Department of Justice as to manpower and resources in Dublin, Cork and Limerick. We are also anxious that schemes should be introduced only where there is a reasonable prospect of success and we wrote to the Garda Commissioner expressing our concern about this and the need to ensure that the pilot schemes are provided with the resources to ensure their success.

Neighbourhood watch will not be successful in all areas. It is certainly likely to prove successful in suburban areas but may not have any impact in, say, the Dublin inner city area. Even for it to succeed in any area it will be essential that there be adequate gardaí on the beat.

The committee considered the recent trend whereby civilians were taking a more active role in the fight against crime by, for example, patrolling their neighbourhood. While they consider that this good-will should be harnessed, the committee are anxious to emphasise the need for such activity to take place within an approved framework and under the control and supervision of the Garda. One of the ways by which such community activity could be expressed is in a civilian observation patrol where members patrol the streets and community property, observe and report any suspicious or criminal activity, but do not get involved in any incidents.

The committee have made a number of recommendations in favour of various forms of community involvement in policing. Among the more important recommendations are: (i) the need for resources to be provided for community policing schemes through a community policing budgetary allocation, (ii) crime prevention committees must be set up in any area where the community is going to become more actively involved in policing activities, (iii) the Garda authorities should take the initiative in ensuring that the public are aware of the potential of community policing schemes; should be actively involved in their introduction and should train members of such schemes. In this connection Garda members may also need basic and in-service training in community relations.

This is the committee's first report and is intended to provide a guideline for the public as to the views of this House on the practical ways in which the public can assist the garda to combat crime. This document is intended to stimulate public discussion on the whole question of community policing. The committee will proceed to consider other areas within their orders of reference but will keep an eye on developments in this area and may report further to the House.

I would like to emphasise that there must be a realisation on the part of the public that the Garda alone cannot tackle the crime problem. Every individual member of the community has a role to play in the fight to reduce crime and improve the quality of the life of society. For too long now people have been saying that the Garda will deal with this and that with the result that the ordinary citizen has opted out of his role. It is time for a new realisation that people must again play their part in maintaining social order and that such a role necessitates a close liaison and co-operation with the Garda. The committee are aware that there must be a corresponding change in emphasis and they will consider what steps, in addition to those already covered in this first report, can be taken to change this emphasis.

The House will realise that this report was unanimously agreed by the committee whose members have asked me to state that the time allocated for its discussion is very short. We will be looking for some extension on another day.

Mr. G. Mitchell

I am particularly pleased that we have brought the first report before the House. I welcome the reasoned speeches at the AGSI conference as reported in today's press. I am very reluctant to pay any compliment to that association because on the last occasion I did so in the House they interpreted it as an attack.

The purpose of the report, which was considered before the action Deputy Woods referred to by people in the streets, is to regularise and to harmonise relationships between community groups and the Garda who have to be the primary and the first group in the maintenance and administration of law and order. Condemnation of vigilantes by Members of this House has been interpreted by some groups as condemnation of all groups involved in efforts to maintain law and order in their communities. That is not the case. There are many groups voluntarily involved in trying to do something about crime in their area and are associated and work in harmony with the Garda and are not what could be described as vigilantes. The committee are not against such groups although they are against vigilantes. They are anxious that such groups work in harmony with the Garda under the control and supervision of the Garda and not on their own.

The introduction of the neighbourhood watch scheme together with the civilian observation patrol, appropriately called COP, is something the community will welcome. One of the biggest problems in the Dublin region is crime and many of the more active members of the community are very anxious to get involved with the Garda to try to do something about this problem. This will give them a formal outlet for this energy and interest.

I hope the Garda Commissioner will appoint an inspector in each division and a sergeant in each Garda station to take in hand the administration of the scheme proposed by the all party committee today and that the Dáil committee will look at the deployment and training of the Garda and will write a report on drug abuse and drug related crime aa a matter of urgency.

I also hope that at an early date we will be able to give some consideration to the question of family courts, or parental responsibility, and that this will be considered as part and parcel of a review of the age of criminal responsibility. In my view this is extremely urgent because of certain provisions in the criminal justice legislation. I hope too that the various problems facing the community can be examined by the all party committee and that in the coming months we can issue reports on the various areas of difficulty facing the community. Not all the problems we face are aggravated by lack of legislation.

Mr. V. Brady

For some time Dublin has been suffering from an appalling level of crime and vandalism. It has become a city of fear: we have a number of no-go areas. Various types of solutions have been advocated over the years by different people, such as psychiatrists, community groups and so on, but these proposals failed to solve the problem.

It was against this background that the committee were set up. We have before us today the first report on the neighbourhood watch. I see this as only the first round in the fight against crime. This is only the tip of the iceberg. There are many question marks behind the proposals. Deputy Mitchell mentioned vigilante groups. This is one area where we might run into difficulty because there is a possibility that such a voluntary group can be taken over by extreme groups and there is also the danger of protection rackets. These areas will have to be monitored very carefully with the result that tremendous responsibility will fall on the Garda to ensure that this type of situation does not arise.

The neighbourhood watch has been tried very successfully in New York over the past few years and this has led to a reduction in the crime rate. However, the Irish person has a great fear of being labelled an informer. This may deter many people from becoming involved in a positive way with the neighbourhood watch. The Garda must monitor and supervise the neighbourhood watch scheme and give professional instruction to the people who take part. These people must be identified only to a very small number of gardaí, perhaps at local Garda station level. If this scheme is monitored properly it can contribute in a very positive way towards the solution of the overall problem.

Since our last committee meeting a great deal of publicity was given to politicians criticising the Garda. Some of the statements attributed to members of the committee were taken out of context. It is unfortunate that we do not have a full detailed account of that meeting so that what I say could be proved. I want to put on the record that the Garda have been doing a very good job under difficult circumstances. The Garda must obtain full support and more financial resources from the Department. In present circumstances there is no way the neighbourhood watch will be successful. More finance must be poured in to facilitate involving more areas.

As I said at the outset, I see this as the first round in the fight against crime. We cannot expect solutions overnight to problems which have been building up over a number of years. I hope the full co-operation of the public will be forthcoming and that the Garda will be seen to support the public. If we can start along these lines that will be a step in the right direction.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I will be calling Deputies in the following order: Deputy Skelly, Deputy De Rossa, Deputy Cosgrave, Deputy O'Dea, Deputy Doyle and Deputy M. Brennan, provided we all co-operate, because there is a time limit.

Mr. Skelly

I commend this report to the House and thank the chairman for his leadership. We have done a fair amount of work since the committee were set up. We met very regularly and took our responsibilities very seriously. I do not intend to make a long submission but I want to make a few points.

Over the last week end the Commissioner gave a figure of £221 million per annum as the budget for the Garda, a force of 11,200 people. It was inevitable that the Select Committee on Crime, Lawlessness and Vandalism would look at the force and how they worked. In my view the Garda over-reacted to the criticism they alleged was made by the committee and by Members of this House. There are a number of semi-State bodies such as CIE, Aer Lingus, NET, the ESB, Bord Telecom and so on, which can be criticised. They all have large budgets, and large organisations should come under the scrutiny of Members of this House. We should know if they are efficient, if they are doing the job for which they were set up and if taxpayers' money is being spent properly.

Like other members of the committee, I have the greatest respect for the Commissioner, the Deputy Commissioners, the senior members of the Garda and the force in general but, contrary to what the Garda have been saying about political interference in their area, they have interfered to a great extent in the political arena. I also mentioned that point in my Second Stage speech on the Criminal Justice Bill. For example, it was reported in the Evening Press on 3 March that the Government's plan to combat serious crime was turned down by the Garda at a meeting in Wexford. They said that the Minister's proposed amendments to the Criminal Justice Bill would tilt the balance in favour of the criminal and that the pressure groups had won while the Garda had failed. I would say “no” to that. So far the Garda have won because they have been the greatest pressure group in getting the Bill in its present form before the House. They say that the new Act would be of very little use to the Force. This is another attempt by them to lead the Dáil and one of the complaints of the committee was that they were also attempting to lead us by the nose and were annoyed because we did not want that and wanted to make our own submissions. If this new legislation would be of very little use to the Force, then that is proof that they are the most inefficient organisation in the country. I said at a committee meeting that they may be one of the most inefficient organisations, but this is proof. Every responsible body is saying that this Bill is draconian in some of its measures.

I refer to a statement made during that weekend by Sergeant Michael Murray, a member of the AGSI executive, who operates in Finglas. He stated: "If we so honestly and sincerely want to have contact with and support from the community we must stop thinking of ourselves as a brotherly band, beleagured by hostile forces, and start thinking of ourselves more as public servants within a specialised law enforcement organisation". That is a positive statement and I think the man is right.

The committee interviewed a committee from Finglas where the first community policing operation is to be set up. As a result of replies to the questions I and other members asked I felt they were unprepared for that operation and merely because this committee was the first to suggest that they operate community policing or neighbourhood watch they tried to steal a march. I emphasised that there was a danger because they were stealing possibly the only trump card we had left in combating and controlling crime. Some of the statements were taken out of context by the media. This committee suggested that they be supported and provided with money where necessary and that we should try to help them.

The general secretary, P. J. Rogan, suggested that sweeping comments were made by members of the committee, including myself. That is not true because we have been constructive in our suggestions. They also said that a comprehensive document was submitted to us by AGSI for consideration but that has not happened and the document will not be submitted for another three weeks.

We must remember what the role of a Member of this Parliament is. If a Member is not entitled to examine and look at the Garda, then I should like to know who can. I thank the Minister for making that point in his submission to the association. He said on television recently that Members of Parliament and members of the committee should have a right to look at how the Force operates.

Regarding what is happening in relation to crime and the Criminal Justice Bill, the day when you cannot answer back a garda who stops you on the street is a sad day for this country. If it ever gets to the stage where some brat — and I mean a brat — takes in respectable members of the community and incarcerates them in a dirty cell for three or four hours, it is also a sad day for this country and people must speak out against it. The Bill is not yet through the House and this does happen. In memory of the older, dead generation of Garda, whom we loved, and the present revered members, I stand against certain sections of the Criminal Justice Bill and in favour of an up-graded, humane, efficient Force.

Mr. De Rossa

I welcome the report of the committee. It is important that the Dáil should have a committee looking at the question of crime, policing and the relationship with the community. The terms of reference of the committee are, however, restricted in that they do not allow the committee to look at the question of the causes of crime. I note the committee's suggestion that local community groups or crime prevention committees should be financed to look at the causes of crime locally. While certainly there is a need for people to look at the causes of crime in their own area, primarily the question of examining the overall causes of crime is a matter for elected representatives in this House and by the committee.

The matter of neighbourhood watch takes up most of the report and it pinpoints a number of basic requirements. They include resources, manpower, communications between local people and the Garda and so forth. Another very important element in the operation of the scheme is the matter of confidence between local people and the Garda. It is not always the case that the Garda have that confidence, certainly in parts of this city. This may be due to the Garda being pushed into positions because of lack of resources or manpower and having to do things they would not necessarily want to do in enforcing the law. Confidence does not exist in all areas.

It must also be said that not all gardaí are keen on the idea of the neighbourhood watch. In many parts of this city the Garda simply want a number of people in an area to report to them what is going on and they do not want to have any hand, act or part in the broader question of liaising with local people in regard to crime prevention. This is not the case in Finglas where an attempt is being made to set up a pilot scheme. My experience is that there has been a very open response to the whole idea of the pilot scheme in the Finglas area, but unless the Garda make a conscious effort to build up confidence between themselves and the local people this scheme will not get beyond the point of being a pilot scheme in one area.

I mentioned the causes of crime and Deputy Woods said that various people put forward poverty and deprivation as causes of crime. I argue very strongly that the social factors which lead to crime have to be dealt with as a matter of policy by whatever Government are in power. I also feel very strongly that the committee should immediately establish a study into the effect housing, education, unemployment and deprivation of various kinds have on young people who get involved in crime. We must take note of the statistic which indicates that 50 per cent of those involved in crime are under 21 years of age. We should discuss how that problem can be dealt with through policy decisions by the Government. It will not be solved by committees looking at their own local situation. A whole range of social policies must be introduced by the Government.

The question of drugs is also very important in relation to crime. We all know drug addiction leads to drug pushing and crimes of various kinds, and not just petty crimes. In the past it has led to fairly serious crimes because the addict has to pay for his or her habit. I urge the committee to take up as their next priority a study of the causes of crime and to look into the cause of drug abuse and make recommendations. I ask them to press very strongly for the strengthening and committing of resources to the junior liaison officers scheme.

Acting Chairman (Mr. Allen)

We have five more speakers and we have less than 25 minutes left. Perhaps contributions could be confined to five minutes.

Mr. L.T. Cosgrave

As a member of the committee I welcome this report. My contribution will be brief because of the time limitation. I hope that at some future date this matter can be discussed in greater detail by all Members of the House. I hope that when the reports of committees come before the House they will not be a filler-in on a Thursday afternoon.

Over the past number of months the committee have examined this problem thoroughly. We have quite a number of meetings. We met various groups of people such as the Garda. We also had an interesting meeting with members of the Finglas group who were most helpful to us and told us about various problems in their areas and various matters which should be dealt with prior to putting this scheme into operation in other areas. We learned over the past few months that before the scheme is operated in other areas certain problems have to be ironed out if it is to operate successfully.

I think we are going about it in the right way. I hope the proposed neighbourhood watches, civilian observation and general vigilance will be a success. We are all victims of crime in one way or another. Some people are the real victims and suffer loss or physical assault. Houses have been robbed. Others have friends who were attacked and robbed. Others are affected by malicious damage claims and insurance claims. We are all suffering in one way or another because of the fact that crimes are being committed against the people.

It will take time and planning to operate the scheme successfully. It will take a commitment from all of us and especially from those who are concerned about community problems. We will need certain resources, finances and equipment. It may be that in one area there is only one squad car or the telephones are not working. All these practical difficulties can be dealt with. The proposal by the committee is only one way to fight crime. We will be discussing many more matters in trying to bring about a decrease in the crime rate.

Obviously we need a good Garda Force working for us. We have a good Garda Force. Hard hitting headline-seeking criticisms of the Garda are not helpful. Official channels are available whether it be the Minister, the local superintendent or the Commissioner of the Garda. I reject any general headline seeking criticisms which do not contribute anything. Some groups and individuals who make these criticisms do not make any constructive contribution themselves. I hope that a combination of effort, with the public helping the Garda, will bring about a reduction in crime. Very often the victims of crime do not get too much notice. People shout about rights being affected. The rights of the victim do not claim the same prominence. I welcome the report and I hope its progress will be watched by Members of the House and by the Minister for Justice over the coming months.

Mr. O'Dea

As a member of the committee I welcome this report and commend it to the House. There is no doubt that there is a very serious and growing crime problem and that we should be doing something about it. The crime problem gives rise to a diverse ideological response, as was illustrated by some speakers here today. There is the attitude which portrays crime as an attack on the rule of law and a threat to the established order which must be controlled at all costs. There is the other approach which suggests that crime is the product of a sick society and arises from various social malfunctions within our basic institutions. There is an even more radical approach which focuses on the irrelevance or inadequacy of those institutions. There is a certain element of truth in these approaches and they must be kept in mind in any discussion on how the crime problem can be solved.

I agree with the remarks made by Deputy Cosgrave about the Garda. One aspect of the proceedings of the committee which I deplored was outspoken attacks on the Garda. Basic decisions on the role, functions and structure of the Garda were taken at a time when society was very different from what it is today. The difficulties faced by the Garda acting in that role and acting within the ambit of those decisions taken very long ago in trying to control crime in modern society cannot be underestimated and must be clearly understood, if any clear policy is to evolve to combat crime. Some of the difficulties facing the Garda Force arise from a changed perception among some groups of their role in society. These see the Garda in the role of protecting the standards and position of a certain section of society at the expense of others.

Most of the difficulties in attempting to combat crime arise from the fairly static and limited range of responses of the Garda to a wide and changing diversity in crime. One conclusion which is evident from the interim report and preliminary discussions by the Committee on Crime, Lawlessness and Vandalism is that the effectiveness of the police as a force isolated from and not integrated to any extent with the local community is severely limited and becoming more so as time goes on. The Garda have come around to agreeing with that point of view, but I notice that they still see themselves as the prime movers in the evolution of community policing. For various reasons into which time does not permit me to go, I disagree with that view. Perhaps in the early stages the police could act as the catalyst in encouraging the development of community policing in society, but local communities themselves must be the prime movers in this regard.

The key to the evolution of community policing must be flexibility. There must not be a rigid scheme which applies in the same way in all areas. As time goes on, experience will lead to a system of community policing which it is hoped will be rational and effective, and will have wide acceptance from the public. I hope that such evolution will be accompanied by the development of a more fair, humane and just society.

Mr. J. Doyle

As a member of the committee, I have been involved in the discussions leading to the production of the report. I fully support the emphasis placed on involving the public more fully in attempting to reduce the level of crime in the community. Despite a small reduction in crime in 1979, a 50 per cent increase has been recorded in indictable offences over the last five years. Such increase is a real cause for alarm and shows that the Garda on their own cannot deal with the general level of crime in our society at present. This is where the concept of community involvement and policing must come to the fore. It was in recognition of this need that the members of the committee decided to concentrate initially on the production of a report on the ways in which citizens could assist the Garda.

While the level of crime poses a serious problem, many are concerned about themselves or their families and friends becoming victims. Serious crimes are a cause for legitimate concern, but such form a minority of the total. The public must have a balanced picture of crime. If the fear of crime is to be reduced, the adoption of certain crime prevention practices will help — increased foot patrols by uniformed gardaí, improved street lighting, the fitting of window and door locks, all have been found to lessen that fear. It is accepted that increasing police manpower is not the sole solution to combating crime. The public have a part to play and can effectively help by becoming more involved in the prevention of crime. It is for this reason that the committee are recommending the introduction of community policing schemes.

It appears that a considerable proportion of indictable offences are of a petty nature and the result of opportunities placed in the way of potential criminals. As an example, in 1982, there were about 20,000 cases of larceny from unattended vehicles, which represents one-fifth of the total record of indictable offences. While I accept that circumstances arise where persons may have no option but to leave possessions in unattended vehicles, the extent of the crime shows a lack of foresight on the part of vehicle owners. They must be educated as to the important part which they can play in reducing crime. People spend a large amount of money in buying expensive cars and go to no trouble whatsoever to safeguard these from robbery.

In relation to our recommendations for the establishment of a crime prevention committee, this is the kernel of our report, as pointed out by the chairman. In this area we would have a welding together of the community, the Garda Síochána and members of local authorities. This is the first step in the involvement of the Garda in the community. As stated in the report, we will be looking at other ways in which this could be achieved. I would like the Garda to become more involved in youth activities, in the establishment of relationships with schools and youth clubs and with younger people.

The function of the Garda, as I understand it, is to prevent crime, protect life and property and maintain public peace and order in our society. In the discharge of that duty, it is imperative that they operate within the law as laid down. Any garda who fails in that should be severely punished. There has been criticism of the Garda Síochána. I am not opposed to such criticism, if it is informed. However, that criticism has shown lack of balance in recent times. Since the establishment of this State, the Garda Síochána have served us very well. They set up road blocks and check houses at risk to their lives. They are very brave men in doing this.

To get a picture of the value of the Garda Síochána to the community, it is worth examining the record in that regard and the casualties which they have suffered in bravely carrying our their duties. In 1970 Garda Richard Fallon was shot in following armed robbers at the AIB bank in Arran Quay. Inspector Samuel Donegan was killed in 1972 when examining an explosive device on the Border. In 1975 Garda Michael Reynolds was shot in the head in St. Anne's Park, Raheny, while pursuing persons suspected of an armed robbery. In 1976 Garda Michael Clarkin was killed in an explosion when called to examine a booby trap in a house. In 1980 Garda Bourne and Detective Garda Moroney were both killed when pursuing armed robbers. Also in 1980 Garda Séamus McQuaid was shot by persons suspected of armed robbery.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy's time is up.

Mr. J. Doyle

In 1982 Garda Reynolds was murdered when trying to arrest raiders at a house in Tallaght. In 1983 Sergeant McLoughlin was shot by armed men allegedly connected with drug offences. Recently, in 1984, Garda Sheehan was killed in a search for the kidnappers of Mr. Don Tidey. These are an example of the bravery of the Garda Síochána who have served our community well. We should recognise that and take it into account.

Finally, I would like to thank the clerk of the committee and his staff for their very courteous attention.

Mr. M. Brennan

As a rural Deputy I am not aware of the problems with regard to crime in the city of Dublin and other big cities. However, I suggest that the neighbourhood watch be extended to rural parts of our constituencies, particularly my constituency where elderly people are at present living in constant fear. I should like to know if the Minister is aware that throughout the length and breadth of this country there are large numbers of elderly people living in constant fear of attack in their homes by greedy, violent and ruthless thugs who have no hesitation about forcing their way into the homes and apartments of these defenceless people, demanding money through maniac, forceful attacks on their homes. They are robbing these unfortunate victims, in many cases causing them grievious bodily harm. This unfortunate situation has arisen because people are not aware of how much money they are entitled to have in their bank. Perhaps this matter would be proper to the Minister for Social Welfare. Elderly people living in rural areas who apply for the old age pension — particularly in the case of bachelors or others living alone — often withdraw money, sometimes their life savings, from a bank or post office when somehow or other somebody gets to know about it and a short time afterwards their homes are broken into and they are robbed. This is happening all over rural Ireland and is particularly prevalent in my constituency at present. These men come in the dead hour of night, just kicking a door in to gain entry. There was even an instance of an invalid having been thrown out of bed — because it is known that sometimes people have a habit of keeping money under the mattress — so that they could look for money under the mattress. I know of people who have been afraid to go back and live in their homes because they have been broken into and robbed. This fear is of crisis proportions in our society at present in particular among the elderly.

Miss Flaherty

I should like to commend this report to the House. I firmly believe that community policing will be a major contributor to our success in the fight against crime in the future. I would compliment Deputy M. Brennan on his simple but very realistic presentation of the reality of crime to so many of our people today, rural and urban. It is in that atmosphere that we and indeed the Minister have undertaken much of the action of the past year. The reality is extremely sad, the quality of life of people has deteriorated rapidly. People cannot go freely from their homes, they cannot do what they could have done five, six, seven or eight years ago. It is that dreadful limitation on people's lives that has presented us with the task that we, as legislators, cannot continue to ignore. We are facing that task in a number of ways this year with the Criminal Justice Bill, our proposals on community policing, the development of a pilot scheme and, hopefully in the course of this year, a very important part, the Children's Bill, which will deal with the caring side of proposals in relation to children who are at risk or who may become criminals.

The importance of the scheme succeeding cannot be understated. The alternative for our society is to accept a situation in which there will be an ever-increasing number of Garda Síochána, in which the answer to crime will be a much greater presence of police on our streets, outside our places of business, perhaps generally becoming a feature of every street corner. None of us would like to see that happen. None of us would see that as a tolerable solution, apart from the fact that society could not afford it. Quite apart from that it would be totally undesirable in terms of the quality of life and the kind of society we would wish to create.

Community policing first raised its head in other countries. It was initially proposed here by the Garda Síochána themselves. That is a welcome development. It was their association who produced a major discussion document on this over a year ago in which they indicated their willingness to have this developed. Spontaneously our people took this concept aboard. For example, in the fight against drugs they have discovered that it is community awareness, action and prevention that constitutes the best answer to those types of crime.

I should like to make a few points about the Finglas area in particular, where a year ago people facing some serious incidents in their area came into the Minister indicating that they were interested in a pilot scheme of community policing, seeing that as the solution to their problem. They were very happy when the Garda Commissioner decided that Finglas was to be designated one of the pilot areas. In Finglas there is a Garda force which, as Deputy De Rossa has indicated, has extremely good links with the community arising out of the early stages of the community policing concept which began in recent years. In one and a half years there has been a significant impact made on the level of crime in that area. For example, there has been a noticeable decline in the number of cars stolen in the area. The people of the area have been surveyed. They have shown themselves very willing to co-operate fully in this scheme but they have identified a series of problems. I would say to the Minister that there is an awful lot at stake here, that this is the first pilot scheme from which we hope will develop a national scheme which will affect all cities and rural areas. It is extremely important that this pilot scheme be given the resources it needs. The people have already identified the necessity for extra manpower, perhaps extra facilities for the Garda Síochána, in particular the desirability of having sufficient manpower so that there can be a regular beat in order that individual members of the Garda can become known to individual members of the community. The next stage in that pilot scheme is that every household in the Finglas area will be circulated with details of the scheme and how it will operate. Each household will be asked to put up a sign reading "Community watch" and will be invited to be in regular communication with the Garda Síochána. That will lead to a significant increase in calls being made on the Garda Síochána. If they cannot respond adequately the scheme will lose its credibility. I would ask the Minister to look very carefully at the necessity of giving this pilot scheme the necessary resources. We on that committee, and I personally, believe it is a most important scheme and must not be put at risk by inadequate resources.

Minister for Justice (Mr. Noonan,

Limerick East): First of all, I should like to thank everybody who contributed to this debate this afternoon. There have been a number of major opportunities afforded Deputies to register their views about crime, lawlessness, law and order in general over the past 12 months. We had a very effective Second Stage debate on the Community Services Order Bill, and we had the Second Stage debate on the Criminal Justice Bill, which was quite long. We had, I think, also two special debates on the general area as well. I am glad to have had the opportunity of listening to this debate also. As I said in the House previously, this is not just a ritual we follow: I do take the views of Deputies into account. I consider that the views expressed by Deputies in this House are of more significance in influencing me in decision-making than those of anybody else outside the House. I might suggest that Deputies would look again at the amendments I shall be proposing next week on the Committee Stage of the Criminal Justice Bill when they will see that many of the views expressed here have been taken on board by me. I intend to continue to operate in that way.

As this is the first occasion on which the House has met to debate the work of the Select Committee on Crime, Lawlessness and Vandalism, I would like to avail myself of this opportunity to wish the committee every success in discharging the functions which the House has given to it.

It is clear from the crime committee's first report that the members have been working hard at their task. The matter of a neighbourhood watch scheme, which forms the subject matter of the committee's first report, was a very apt choice. The report has, of course, only just been published and the various recommendations will require to be carefully considered and evaluated. The process of consulting the various interests involved is being put in hands. Accordingly, I am not in a position today to give a final response to all of the committee's recommendations.

However, I am pleased to be in a position to endorse wholeheartedly the central recommendation of the report on the establishment of neighbourhood watch. I announced in the House in May last that I was considering the introduction of such a system and in the ensuing months the Garda authorities researched the topic and, as noted by the committee, the Garda are, with the co-operation of the local communities, in the process of setting up the system on a pilot basis. It is heartening that there is agreement on all sides on the potential for good which neighbourhood watch seems to offer. When we think of schemes like neighbourhood watch, we usually think in terms of community policing. To think about that, we must think of the nature of the community. We have many communities in the State. In order to have a community service integrated into the community those who carry out the service must be part of the community. This is one of the difficulties we face as regards community policing. Country gardaí live in the towns and villages and are integrated into the community. However, they do not live in the same communities in the cities.

I am not casting any reflection on gardaí but it is worth noting that our housing policy has brought about a position where the major support agencies involved in a community move in during the day and move out at night. This refers to teachers, probation and welfare officers as well as to gardaí. They all give a good service while they are in the community but obviously if they do not live in the community there is not absolute integration. Real involvement in a community means living among the people, getting to know them, your kids going to school with their kids, and your wife having a cup of coffee and doing the shopping with their wives. That does not happen in many of the support agencies. Consequently we must think of other ways of having a strong contact between the community and the Garda.

When I first came to office I discussed this with the Commissioner. As an initial attempt to get the community more closely involved with the police, it was decided that as many gardaí as possible would be put back on the beat and that gardaí in uniform would patrol the same areas working on consecutive rosters. In that way they could build up a relationship with the community. They would know people by their first names. They would know who lived in what house and whose car was parked outside a certain house. This was accepted as normal up to a few years ago. There are areas in the city where people do not know the gardaí by their names. More gardaí have been put back on the beat.

Another idea is that of having a community policeman designated to a particular area. His job would be to forge links between the community and the force at a personal level. He could coach the local kids' soccer team, as many gardaí coach a hurling or football team down the country, or he could go into a house and have a cup of tea and talk to the people. It is vitally important that the strong contact which existed between the gardaí and the people be re-established. In that context, I welcome community watch. It will provide another mechanism whereby people can make contact in a personal way with the gardaí. That is vital for the prevention of crime.

It has been traditional for Ministers to appeal for public co-operation with the Garda. That has always been interpreted as a one to one response — the individual good citizen doing his civic duty should respond to an individual garda on behalf of the force. We also need a community response and community watch provides for that. My views are already a matter of record on this matter. There is a cautionary note to be sounded. There are groups who would like to infiltrate communities for their own purposes. This is particularly true of the Provisional IRA and their ongoing policy of winning influence, control and subsequently power with the Armalite in one hand and the ballot paper in the other. Their attempts to influence communities to support them electorally has tempted them to infiltrate community groups.

It is important that people setting up community watch should do so in co-operation with the Garda. It would be a tragedy if concerned parents set up a structure which proved to be the wooden horse which brought terrorists into their communities and allowed them, under the subterfuge of help, to play a significant role in their communities. That would take the community from the frying pan into the fire. Communities should be aware of this. That can be avoided by setting up community watch in co-operation with the Garda. Get the Garda in at the beginning and have the ground rules established early on.

We should not be too pessimistic about the situation. Crime is increasing but the increase last year was 4.9 per cent. It was a small increase. The year before it was 9 per cent and the year before that it was 22 per cent. I hope we have the right trend on the graph. Too much emphasis has been placed on crime detection over the years. There is a budget of £246 million spent on the Garda and prisons. The harm has already been done before the switch is turned on for it to operate effectively. A crime has been committed and it is only after that has happened that the forces which fight against crime are activated. There is a victim. Somebody has been hit over the head or his or her television or car has been stolen. Everything is then activated to catch up with the person and punish him. It would be of enormous benefit to society if more emphasis was put on crime prevention rather than crime detection. Community watch presents an ideal opportunity for this.

In the US where this scheme has been in operation for a number of years the business community are involved. Insurance companies and banks have sponsored communities in community watch. An essential part of it is to protect homes and property. Insurance companies are in the business of accepting liability to protect homes and property. If communities are reducing the risk, why should insurance companies not help them in their fight against crime? I would like if this committee took up this idea with the insurance companies and the banks. It would benefit the community and the companies. The insurance companies provide information and publish literature. They also provide infra-red pens for marking property.

I do not see the Criminal Justice Bill as a panacea for all our ills. There are many things we must do in our fight against crime. The legislative approach is only one of them. We must build up public confidence in the Garda and we must build up the morale of the Garda. We must make them more effective in urban areas especially. I am sure the Whitaker committee on prisons will enable us to find solutions to many of the problems associated with prisons. We must have a more effective court system and alternatives to imprisonment. If the appropriate alternatives were there many people who are now imprisoned would not be in prison.

I do not want anybody, especially the members of the Committee on Crime, Lawlessness and Vandalism, who are here and who have such an interest in this, to misunderstand my position. A great deal of attention will be given to the Criminal Justice Bill next week. It is only part — a necessary part — of the approach to the crime problem legislation, but there are other things also. I accept the role of the committee and of all Deputies in the House to make a valid contribution to that and I will be open-minded about it. I can do with all the good advice I can get. I thank everybody who contributed.