asked the Minister for Labour the criteria being used by his Department to monitor AnCO training programmes.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Training Programmes.
9.
Essentially AnCO training programmes are monitored by my Department on the basis of financial and labour market criteria. On the financial side AnCO's programmes are monitored by reference to unit costs per trainee and per training day. Cost elements are examined annually to identify movements and comparisons across programmes to achieve economies where possible. At the same time, programme expenditure is also examined to establish how sources of revenue other than the Exchequer can be maximised, e.g., the European Social Fund, employer contributions and service fees.
On the labour market side, programmes are monitored from two viewpoints. Since the establishment of AnCO in 1967 primary consideration has focused on how training services responded to the demand side of the labour market. Programmes have been monitored to see how they have responded to skill shortages, emerging occupational-skill trends and industrial development. The placement rate of trainees off many training programmes and research by relevant agencies and industrial interests have been used as indications of demand.
More recently increasing attention has been placed on the responsiveness of training programmes to the needs of the supply side of the labour market of which the unemployment level is an important measure. The Youth Employment Agency Act, 1981, has served in particular to address the need for training for unemployed young persons, especially the disadvantaged. Programmes are also monitored to identify if they contribute towards equalising opportunities for other special categories including women and long-term unemployed. The contribution of programmes to developing entrepreneurial potential or indeed rescuing or safeguarding employment has also been a consideration in overviewing training services by AnCO.
Arising out of the considerable expansion in AnCO programmes and resources in recent times some difficulties have arisen in ensuring effective monitoring by my Department. For these reasons, the Government decided to have an inter-Departmental review of AnCO undertaken. This is in hands and the outcome will assist in establishing more effective monitoring criteria and procedures for the future in this area.
I welcome the inter-Departmental monitoring idea. Would the Minister not agree that the long-term training needs of the economy are often not measured by the percentage of trainees immediately placed? Although the Minister is looking at wider things, does he not feel that the concentration of many AnCO training places in apprenticeship areas is hardly responsive to the skill shortages that will be felt in the coming years?
Both points can be taken into account by the monitoring group being set up on an inter-Departmental basis.
Is the Minister aware that in north-eastern regions there is substantial EEC funding for craft development but AnCO do not seem to be involved in this at the same level as are the people in Northern Ireland, who seem to be availing much more of craft training facilities.
It is a different question and I do not have information on it. If the Deputy has information I would be glad to have it.
10.
asked the Minister for Labour if certification of standards of training achieved can and should be applied to courses run by AnCO.
Certification already applies in the case of long-duration courses which are operated to achieve City and Guilds or other recognised standards. In addition, AnCO will introduce soon a new certificate of competence for all apprenticeship courses. This will be in lieu of the certificate of completion of apprenticeship which apprentices currently receive on completion of the statutory period of training.
There are problems, however, about applying certification to a range of short-term general courses developed by AnCO in response to the urgent needs of recent times. These courses are designed to bring trainees to high levels of knowledge, skill and attitude, in order to achieve specific training objectives. Each training course has its own particular training objective. The courses are designed to suit individuals in all age groups with educational levels varying from no qualifications to third level in a small number of cases.
Training programmes contain a strong element which provides a second chance for people who have been made redundant or who have been unemployed for some time or who have left the educational system and have not succeeded in obtaining jobs. There are no recognised standards which could be used as a basis for certification of these courses. AnCO, however, would respond to developments in certification in the field of adult education which has been under consideration by the NCEA and education authorities for some time.
I might add that the question of certification of standards of training has been a European Community concern for some time, and the Council Resolution of 11 July 1983 concerning vocational training policies in the 1980s calls on member states, among other things, to make increased efforts to promote attainment of the objective of ensuring that training programmes lead to recognised qualifications. The Commission for its part is asked to continue with the activities it is undertaking to continue innovation and the qualitative improvement of training systems in the member states, and to make an interim report to the Council before 30 June 1987 and final report before 31 December 1989 on the progress made in implementing the resolution.
Does the Minister not think that a confusion of quality will arise in the minds of employers who will be taking on people who come off short courses if there is not some form of certification to give the employers an indication of the standard of competence that has been reached, even in some rough way if not in accordance with recognised standards? Is the Minister not concerned that after a number of months have elapsed the people who participated in these courses often find that the value of the courses is of limited use to them in approaching employers — that once they move away from the AnCO training centres the courses do not have much value for them without some form of certificate?
I share the Deputy's desire to get some form of certification but the problem is the method and system that would be agreed upon and established because AnCO are the only body in this area. As regards his second question, I am not aware of the difficulties to which he referred but if it is a problem, I will ask AnCO to have a look at it to see in what way it could be responded to.
From dealing with members of the public I know this is a problem. Young people who complete AnCO courses five or six months ago say the courses are no longer of any value to them.
Would the Minister agree that the problem is not that the AnCO courses are poor but the nonavailability of suitable employment for the very good training being provided in AnCO centres throughout the country?
That is a broader question but I would agree with the Deputy.
11.
asked the Minister for Labour whether data will be collected on the progress of persons who come off training and work experience programmes to show not just whether they were placed at the end of the course, but their situation one year later and the quality of the place obtained.
Arrangements for followup action on participants in training and work experience programmes are being developed.
The present position is as follows: first, in 1984, AnCO will instal a placement monitoring system which will sample individual training categories with a view to obtaining data on placement at the termination of training and four months later. Data will be collected on whether the job is permanent, part-time, or temporary, and the relevance of the job to the training undergone in AnCO. Subject to the availability of resources longer-term assessment of placement is envisaged.
Second, CERT have agreed to collect data reflecting the position of trainees after one year's placement in respect of participants on both formal training programmes and programmes for unemployed persons. Third, The National Manpower Service check on participants in the work experience programme within two months of completion of individual programmes in order to establish whether or not they have secured employment. It is hoped that the introduction of computerisation will enable more detailed checks of the type suggested by the Deputy to be undertaken.
I would like to commend the Minister on those changes but would he consider having a simple standard applied to all the agencies instead of as he suggests, AnCO after four months, CERT after one year and the National Manpower Service after two months? Would he also extend the sample survey method instead of full surveys which are obviously much more expensive?
Yes.
12.
asked the Minister for Labour whether he is satisfied that the present apprenticeship programme is providing the skill needs of the Irish labour force for the years ahead.
There are numerous difficulties in forecasting and providing for future skill needs. The present apprenticeship programme is only one source of skill provision. Given the role of employers and trade unions in the regulation of apprenticeship through AnCO and in view of the close co-operation between the manpower and industrial development authorities, the present apprenticeship programme is in a good position to make a major contribution to providing for the skill needs of the Irish labour force for the years ahead. I am satisfied also that AnCO have the expertise in conjunction with the education authorities to respond to the changing skills requirements of the economy and, in consultation with a number of bodies, to review such needs regularly.
Is the Minister concerned that the recent intake of persons into the apprenticeship programmes shows that more than half are in the motor mechanic trade and the construction industry which, at present, are not likely to be sources of big employment increases in the future? Does he agree that the style of motor mechanics is changing rapidly and that the numbers needed and working methods are likely to militate against vacancies in that area? In view of the recent figures which show that may be up to one-third of persons coming off their first year AnCO apprenticeships are not being placed does he consider that we should shift apprentices into the newer high technology areas rather than the traditional apprenticeships?
In relation to the latter part of the question, the figures the Deputy referred to — the non-placement of one-third from existing courses — raises the question whether AnCO courses are appropriate to the labour needs of the job market: that is reflected in the first part of his question about motor mechanics. The establishment of these courses and the time it takes to run an apprenticeship is not something that can be readily changed and quickly turned around. This goes back to the basic difficulty of trying to forecast labour and manpower needs in a workplace environment which is changing very rapidly, as we have seen over the last three years.
Would the Minister not agree that the present high concentration in the motor mechanic trade and the construction industry is hardly appropriate?
I hesitate to make a specific comment on this aspect of AnCO's work in the absence of detailed information, but I will take it up with AnCO when we are talking about their manpower training policy.
Has the Minister, or have AnCO, plans to expand the type and variety of courses available in the high technology area to which he referred in an earlier reply?
I did not have notice of that question and I do not know what AnCO's detailed plans are in relation to that area.