asked the Minister for the Environment the total cost to his Department to replace the service charges to local authorities on a national basis; and if he has any plans to consider reverting to the original system whereby this money was secured from his Department by way of block grant.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Local Authority Service Charges.
7.
Information extracted from the local authorities estimates for 1984 indicates that the estimated amount to be collected through service charges in 1984 is £90.7 million. Charges for services have always been a significant feature in local authority financing. The contribution of new charges introduced in 1983 represents only about one-eighth of the total charges income for that year. The proportion of local authority spending on current account which is met in one form or another from the Exchequer has increased from 39 per cent approx in 1976 to over 65 per cent in 1983.
As already announced, an examination has been undertaken of possible means of improving the system for financing local authority services, taking account particularly of the loss of local revenue arising from the removal of domestic and agricultural rates income.
In view of experience to date, would the Minister agree that this new system of collecting charges for refuse and other services has been a failure? In view of this, would he consider that a more appropriate method of funding local authorities, with particular reference to the examination of the whole structure of local authorities, is urgently required?
I would not accept that it has been a failure. I am aware that there have been certain problems within the local authorities about the form of collection and there were problems with revenue collectors before the system got under way. We are also aware of the concerted efforts by individuals or political parties to upset the collection of these local charges. I assure the Deputy that the collection of these charges has been meeting with success at different levels in different counties. In some counties these local charges have been used and have meant that employment has been maintained within certain local authority areas whereas, where it has not been possible to collect as much as we would like to have seen collected certain problems are arising with regard to employment in the services being provided. Obviously, within the consideration of new financial structures, the success or otherwise of the new charges will be considered. I cannot at this stage say it would be prudent to suggest that they will be removed or that they have not been a success.
Is the Minister aware that in some local authorities for the end of the financial year the percentage collection was as low as 5 per cent? Is he aware that the reason for this is that, as yet, in many local authorities, if not all, no arrangement has been made with regard to the system whereby this money will be collected? I particularly refer to the problem of rate collectors.
I could also refer to percentages which have been very much higher in other local authority areas. The Deputy probably has chosen the lower one. I could refer to higher ones. I agree with him that there has been a problem with revenue collectors. The position of rate collectors in local authorities is a problem that is being dealt with at trade union and management levels. I hope a successful conclusion will be reached between both parties in the near future.
Will the Minister agree that there is widespread dissatisfaction with these local charges and that very many people see them as another imposition of taxation mainly on urban dwellers? Would he indicate why it was felt necessary to drop the agricultural rate? If this agricultural rate was retained does he believe it would not have been necessary to introduce these local charges?
That seems to be a separate question.
I imagine Deputy De Rossa is more aware of one of the problems with regard to the collection of these charges since his party have vigorously opposed at every local level the collection of these charges, even to the extent of issuing printed circulars advising people not to pay them. He should know that this is one of the reasons why there has been difficulty. I believe people have been misled into thinking that for some reason they should not pay these charges, irrespective of what their incomes are. At the same time in every county there is a waiver scheme which allows people, whose incomes are low or because they are on social welfare payments, to have the amount removed altogether or reduced considerably. If his party had taken an opposite view many local authorities would be in a much better financial position than they are at the present time.
I am pleased to see that the Minister recognises the strength of The Workers' Party on the ground in relation to these local charges, but he has not replied to the question relating to the agricultural rate. Does he intend to reintroduce the agricultural rate in order to allow for the abandonment of these local charges?
A constitutional decision has been made with regard to agricultural rates. I cannot go against that decision. I have said, in reply to previous questions, that the position of local financing is being considered very vigorously in my Department. Obviously, finances from all directions are being considered at this time.
The Minister said he could refer to percentage returns in various areas. Could he indicate what the return was in the Dublin area for water charges?
That was not the question I was asked and I have not that information with me.
I only asked a question because the Minister said he could refer to various areas. Is he aware that the vast majority of people in the Dublin area have refused to pay these charges? Is that not clear evidence of the failure of this system?
I dislike telling the Deputy all the time that he is putting forward an argument instead of a question. Obviously if he thinks about it he will see that I am right.
I am quite prepared to repeat that if leadership in the right direction had been given by public representatives the stringent position many local authorities are in at the moment would be much more healthy with regard to their finances than they have found themselves in.
Is the Minister aware that the vast majority of people in the Dublin area have refused to pay these water charges?
That is repetition.
I did not get an answer, and that is why I am repeating the question.
The Chair has no control over the answers given.
I am well aware of the position in Dublin city.
I hope the Minister takes it into account when he is drawing up his new policy.