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Dáil Éireann debate -
Friday, 22 Jun 1984

Vol. 352 No. 2

Estimates, 1984. - Vote 35: Fisheries.

I move:

That a sum not exceeding £17,467,000 be granted to defray the charge that will come in course of payment during the year ending on 31 December, 1984, for the salaries and expenses of the Office of the Minister for Fisheries and Forestry, including sundry grants-in-aid.

I propose, as in previous years, to discuss the Fisheries and Forestry Estimates together and I shall move the Forestry Estimate at the conclusion of the debate.

The amount provided for the Fisheries Vote this year represents an increase of 6 per cent over last year's outturn and will be adequate to continue the development of our sea and inland fisheries resources.

During 1983 the estimated value of landings of sea fish excluding salmon in home ports and abroad by Irish registered vessels was £50 million. The estimated value of exports of fish and fish products during the same period was £80 million. These are new records. The principal export outlets are France, Great Britain, West Germany and the Netherlands and, outside the EEC, Nigeria, Spain and Sweden.

Investment in shore-based processing facilities continued during 1983. Eleven fish-processing projects were approved for EEC FEOGA aid amounting to £2.6 million. The total capital investment in those 11 projects came to £5.8 million, including grants amounting to £1.3 million made available by the Industrial Development Authority and Údarás na Gaeltachta. Over 70 firms are engaged in fish processing and they employ about 1,700 persons.

The grant-in-aid to An Bord Iascaigh Mhara for Administration and Current Development amounts to £4.804 million and the grant-in-aid for Capital Development amounts to £2.740 million. Additional funds for capital development are available by way of repayable advances from the Central Fund and a total of £3 million has been allocated for this purpose in 1984. Funds are also available by way of a line of credit from financial institutions to meet the continued demand by fishermen for loans for boats, gear, re-engining and other purposes.

Further financial assistance to fishermen is provided by way of an interest subvention scheme. This element of subsidy for the fishing fleet represents a considerable further aid for the fleet and in 1984 £1.3 million has been allocated for this purpose. A sum of £1.115 million approximately is provided to meet the cost of grants under the board's marine credit plan; the board's grant-in-aid for capital development also includes a provision of £373,000 for grants for mariculture development and the provision of services to the fishing industry such as ice plants and training facilities.

The continuing high level of arrears in boat repayments is a matter for concern. The situation is serious but it is noteworthy that in some ports there are boat-owners who are up to date with their repayments. Every effort is being made by BIM to reduce the level of arrears and I am at present reviewing the whole position. I have full confidence in BIM to deal with any problems of arrears in an equitable manner in consultation with the fishermen concerned.

My Department are at present in the process of holding public inquiries around the coast prior to considering designation of areas for aquaculture development in accordance with the Fisheries Act, 1980. When the designation process is completed individuals will then be licensed to operate in specified areas. There appears to be some misunderstanding, I believe particularly among some local authorities, about the possible effects of designation of areas for mariculture purposes on other activities in these same areas. I would like to assure them that their fears are unfounded and to stress that aquaculture development and other activities such as the establishment of industry and recreation can coexist in the same general area. Indeed aquaculture development can provide raw material for industry in areas where potential for industrial development is limited. In any event I will of course have full regard to all representations made by the various interests concerned in the course of the public inquiries before making the relevant designation orders.

BIM continues its mariculture grants scheme for both pilot and commercial fish farming projects. This scheme, coupled with the FEOGA grants available for such projects, plays a crucial role in the development of this sector of the industry.

There is, I believe, considerable scope for the development of mariculture in this country and I am examining ways and means by which that development can be accelerated. We enjoy many advantages here for mariculture development. These include a long coastline and relatively unpolluted waters, but careful planning and research is essential to ensure success. I welcome the appointment of a full-time manager by the Tralee Oyster Fisheries Society and I look forward to the implementation of the development plan prepared by the society for the conservation and rational development of the valuable Tralee oyster beds for which considerable State and EEC aid is being provided.

The Sectoral Consultative Committee on Fisheries has presented its report to the Sectoral Development Committee and I expect that the final report will be available shortly. I am confident that the considered recommendations of both committees will be of great benefit to the Government in deciding new policies and strategies for charting the future course of the industry.

Our first year's experience of the Common Fisheries Policy was not an altogether happy one, mainly because of the late agreement in December 1983 on Total Allowable Catches (TACs) and Quotas. That particular problem was be devilled by an ongoing wrangle over the share out of newly-available herring in the North Sea which thankfully was resolved in December 1983, thus leading to agreement on stocks of interest to us. We were immediately presented with proposals for 1984 TACs and quotas and I am very happy that these were agreed at the meeting of Fisheries Ministers on 31 January 1984.

In regard to the details of the quotas' agreement I am satisfied that we have obtained the best deal possible, given the state of some of our stocks, particularly herring. We have attained our "Hague" target overall, shortfalls in our herring allocations being compensated for by additional quantities for other species, mainly mackerel.

We are now in a position for the first time to implement the terms of the Common Fisheries Policy in the areas of TACs and quotas without which other aspects of the policy, such as access, conservation and control are rather meaningless. Thus I see 1984 as offering the first real test of the CFP and I have every reason to believe that it will pass that test.

Deputies will be aware that the export refund for whole frozen mackerel was abolished with effect from 1 November 1983. With the aid of this refund and, may I add, the marketing arm of BIM, a successful export trade to Nigeria in particular was built up. I protested vigorously to the EEC Commission about the abolition of the export refund for mackerel and as a result of my protest an examination of the Irish mackerel market was undertaken by Commission officials. Unfortunately the Commission maintained that our problems stemmed primarily from the high cost of finance charges here and thus could not be properly dealt with in a fisheries measure.

I believe that the abolition of the refund is a reflection of the severe strain on the finances of the Community which, as we know, has already had effects in other sectors particularly in agricultural products.

The advisory committee on marketing, which has been meeting under the chairmanship of Mr. Michael D'Arcy TD, Minister of State at my Department, has done very valuable work in the past year in making practical suggestions for the improvement of marketing arrangements for fish. BIM are also continuing their efforts in locating remunerative markets abroad for Irish fish and I recently visited Japan with officials from the board in order to carry out an examination of the market potential there. As a result of the visit, which was very encouraging, representatives of a number of Japanese firms will be visiting Ireland shortly for discussions with Irish exporters.

Irish exports to Japan have increased from £38,000 in 1981 to £844,000 last year, mainly frozen herring roe and frozen and smoked salmon. The exporters are now looking at prospects for herring, mackerel and consumer packed shellfish, including crab and Dublin Bay prawns. Recently the Japanese Government have become committed to improving the level of imports, particularly from the EEC, to balance exports from Japan and I am confident that Irish fish exports can secure a satisfactory measure of the improved markets likely to be available.

A positive result of a recent EEC Council of Ministers meeting was an agreement that the Commission would carry out a study of the Community's herring market which has been severely depressed for some time. We have participated in this study and I hope that following examination of the report action will be taken by the Community which will give a much needed boost in demand for our herring landings.

As Deputies are aware mackerel represents almost 60 per cent of our national catch and the marketing of this species is therefore of paramount importance to our fishermen. We have in recent years been largely dependent on the Nigerian market and concern has been expressed by my Department and BIM on the dangers of dependence on one particular market. There are problems in exporting fish to Nigeria at present because the new Government there has become rather restrictive in issuing import licences which are now required for all imports into that country. This problem is incidentally not confined to fish but applies to most commodities. Everything possible is being done to expedite the issue of licences and I hope that the problem will be satisfactorily resolved. At the same time efforts are continuing to diversify mackerel exports to other markets.

The amount allocated this year in Subhead C.2 of the Vote for fishery harbour improvement works is £2.7 million. This sum is needed to pay for work in progress at the start of the year and the balance will be used to commence some urgently needed new works.

During the last year work on the Howth development scheme progressed satisfactorily. Work on the west pier has been completed except for resurfacing which is expected to be put in hand shortly. The syncrolift and boat yard have been completed. A contract has been passed for the provision of a new ice-plant and work is scheduled to commence shortly. Arrangements were completed with Dublin Corporation for landscaping the sea front.

At Castletownbere work on the provision of an effluent treatment plant has now been completed.

At Killybegs the erection of a telephone exchange building to provide a much needed improvement in communications is also virtually completed.

At Rossaveal a sectored navigational light to guide vessels from the open sea into the approach channel in Casla Bay has been erected. A net and gear storage compound as well as a net repair area have been provided. A harbour master has been appointed. A comprehensive brief on which the overall development plan will be based was forwarded by my Department to the Office of Public Works. At present marine engineers of the Office of Public Works are working on the plan and are endeavouring to have it available at an early date.

A major development scheme at Caherciveen was completed. Works on other major schemes are progressing satisfactorily at Kilcummin and Killala in County Mayo and at Portevlin, County Donegal. The schemes at Kilcummin and Killala are expected to be completed this year and the scheme at Portevlin is due for completion early in 1985. A minor scheme at Liscannor, County Clare, was completed and work is in progress on the pier at Seafield, County Clare. Work started recently on a scheme at Rathlacken, County Mayo. Rock armouring of portion of the West Wall at Kilmore as a first stage of a development scheme for the harbour has been carried out. Arrangements have been made with Donegal County Council for replacement of the fendering on the pier at Rathmullan.

During the present year the main contract work will be completed at Howth as will be also surfacing of the west pier and the necessary amenity works. Ongoing works will also be completed at a number of other landing places. Provision has been made in the harbour development programme for the construction of the syncrolift at Killybegs and for essential repairs to the pier at Schull as part of a major improvement scheme there. In all, work is expected to be undertaken at over 20 landing centres in the current year.

I now turn to the inland fisheries. The Central and Regional Fisheries Boards, which were set up in October 1980 continue to work for the better conservation, protection and development of every aspect of our valuable inland fisheries. Considerable progress has been made by the boards in the law enforcement area.

Under section 32 of the Fisheries Act, 1980, the introduction of a staff scheme for the staff of the central and regional boards is well under way. This scheme provides for the rationalisation of staff structures and salaries and for improved deployment of all staff. A superannuation scheme for the staff of the central and regional boards was finalised in July 1983 and all eligible staff are now being given the opportunity to make provision for a pension for both themselves and their dependants. In the context of the proposed staff scheme substantial increases have been approved for the protection staff of the regional fisheries boards.

The most important aspect of our inland fisheries is our salmon fisheries. In 1983 the total weight of the salmon catch by all fishing methods was 1,512 tonnes valued at approximately £6.7 million as compared with 908 tonnes valued at £3.9 million in 1982. The overall weight of our salmon catch in 1983 showed an increase of almost 67 per cent on the 1982 catch. While this increase in the salmon catch is very encouraging the overall stock situation must still be very carefully monitored. Illegal salmon fishing is still a major problem and the flagrant disregard shown by some fishermen and salmon dealers for the necessary salmon conservation measures in force, is difficult to understand. Salmon stocks are being protected for the benefit of present and future generations of fishermen.

I carried out a comprehensive review of salmon conservation measures, involving consultations with all sections of fishermen, and fishery boards, as well as studying all the relevant facts and statistics available before the commencement of the present salmon fishing season. My consultations with the various interests involved showed a wide divergence of opinions. However, I have the ultimate responsibility for the conservation and rational exploitation of our salmon stocks and the overall national interests have to take precedence over individual groups or sectors of the industry. There is also an onus on me to ensure that, as far as possible, catches are equally distributed between the different categories of fishermen, something which is very difficult to achieve.

There was a sharp fall in salmon catches in the late seventies and as a result my predecessors had no option but to introduce stringent conservation measures to protect our valuable salmon stocks. That these measures were necessary has, I feel, been proven by the fact that catches of salmon have fallen from over 2,000 tonnes in 1975 to about 600 tonnes in 1981. I am glad to say, however, that catches have since increased and the 1983 catch was, as I indicated earlier, up to 1,500 tonnes. That is not to say, however, that we no longer need conservation measures. It is essential for the maintenance of these valuable stocks that there is sufficient escapement into our rivers each year to allow for adequate spawning to maintain the necessary levels of recruitment in future years.

There has been in recent years a lot of criticism and differences of opinion about our conservation measures. Some fishermen consider they are oppressive, others maintain that they are inadequate or are not being properly enforced. There have also been clashes between fishermen and fisheries protection staff, which is something I abhor.

The main changes I decided to make were as follows: (1) The ban on the use of monofilament nets for salmon fishing to be retained but the regulation is to be amended to ensure that fishermen engaged legitimately in fishing for species other than salmon are not liable to conviction. I hope to have the necessary amending order made within the next week or two; (2) The extension of the commercial net fishing season by one week in the southern fisheries region, that is up to 8 August, and the further extension of the season in this region for draft nets and snap nets to 13 August; (3) The fishing season for draft nets, snap nets and loop nets to continue for one week after the close of the drift net season in all areas except the east coast, and in the southern fisheries region.

While from the point of view of the value of the catch salmon is our most valuable freshwater species, the importance of our brown trout and coarse fisheries as an amenity and a tourist attraction should not be overlooked. The Central Fisheries Board are at present preparing a development plan covering trout, coarse fish and sea angling as well as salmon which I hope will result in big improvements in these fisheries in the longer term.

The Salmon Research Trust of Ireland which is funded jointly by my Department and Messrs. Arthur Guinness, Son & Co., Ltd., continues its research into the biology of the salmon and the factors bearing on its future survival as a species. A grant-in-aid of £56,600 is allocated to the trust for 1984.

Contributions towards the expenses of running the Foyle Fisheries Commission are made jointly by my Department and the Department of Agriculture for Northern Ireland. An amount of £130,000 is included in the Estimate to meet our share of the commission's estimated deficit in 1984. Increased expenditure on wages and salaries is the main reason for the commission's increasing deficit. I am satisfied however that the commission is making every effort to keep its annual deficit to a minimum level while continuing to fulfil its responsibilities under the Foyle Fisheries Acts to conserve and manage the fisheries of the Foyle area. Licence duties payable for fishing licences in the Foyle area have been increased by the Commission for 1984 with a view to reducing its annual deficit. I recommend this Estimate to the House.

I am now going to deal with the main features of the Forestry Vote. The nett provision for forestry activities for this year is £36.564 million and while at first sight this amount, representing a 1 per cent increase over last year's outturn, may appear low, Deputies will see that the overall demand on the Exchequer has been reduced quite substantially by receipts under subhead J — appropriations-in-aid — which are expected to increase by 10 per cent during the year. As the bulk of the appropriations-in-aid is derived from sales of timber, the nett demand on the Exchequer should continue to fall in future years as timber plantations established in the earlier decades reach maturity and yield increasing revenue, especially from the sale of commercial sawlog.

I would like now to give the House more detail in relation to the contents of the Estimate. I shall confine my remarks to the more important subheads, with comments on certain aspects which I feel require some further elaboration.

Subhead A1.: Under this subhead provision is made for the salaries of all "established" staff in the Forest and Wildlife Service. The subhead also includes a sum of £460,000 in respect of housing allowances payable to foresters. The number of staff provided for, about 1,065, comprises administrative, professional and technical staff including inspectors, engineers, surveyors, mapping and forester grades and represents a reduction of 32 as compared with last year.

Subhead B. as a whole embraces a variety of elements but two aspects call for comment. Firstly, under part (1) of the subhead, I would point out that the bulk of the expenditure on travelling is incurred domestically in connection with the day-to-day running of the widely-scattered forest estate. While every effort is being made to effect economies in travelling expenses it must be realised that travelling is an unavoidable feature of forestry work. The proportion of expenditure incurred on foreign travel is small and arises mainly from representation at EEC and other inter-governmental meetings abroad. Secondly, the provision of £540,000 in subhead B.2. refers to the cost of postal, telephone and telegram services provided by the newly-established Post and Telecom Boards — services which were hitherto provided by the Department of Posts and Telegraphs.

Subhead C.1. — Grant-in-Aid for acquisition of land: Under this heading a sum of £3.5 million is provided which, when added to a balance of about £1 million in the fund since last year, will make a total of £4.5 million available for the purchase of land for afforestation in 1984. At the end of 1983 contracts between my Department and landowners for the purchase of land for forestry purposes stood at over 9,000 hectares and it is estimated that some 6,000 hectares, about 15,000 acres, will come into the possession of the Forest and Wildlife Service in 1984.

I would be less than honest if I said that I was satisfied with this level of land intake, especially when the existing plantable reserve is so low. While the clearfelling of existing plantations is now making an increasing contribution to the pool of land for planting each year I will spare no effort to ensure that the maximum possible amount of funding for new land acquisition is provided in the years immediately ahead.

Subhead C.2. for which a total of some £26.6 million is being provided, is the focal point of the Forestry Estimate and relates to the development and management of the entire State forest estate which now comprises a total area of almost 400,000 hectares, of which about 350,000 hectares have been planted to date. The work involved embraces the extensive range of activities which inevitably arise in the management of a national forest estate. These include the production of nursery stock, implementation of the planting programme, the provision of forest roads and buildings, maintenance and protection of plantations, the purchase, hire and maintenance of machinery and various aspects of timber harvesting and conversion. The development of forest amenities, which I will be referring to in more detail in a moment, is also provided for under this subhead.

The pay element represents about 72 per cent of the funds in subhead C.2. and the overall increase in the subhead this year is attributable mainly to wage increases for forest workers. It may not be generally realised that the Forest and Wildlife Service is one of the biggest employers in the country, with a labour force of about 2,500 men working in some 250 widely-dispersed forests which are located for the most part in areas where alternative employment prospects are scarce.

In the current year the total area of new planting is expected to be 4,980 hectares and this will be augmented by the reforestation of some 1,680 hectares of clearfelled land, that is, areas from which a final timber crop has already been taken. I am particularly pleased to say that the area earmarked for the current year's planting programme includes some 300 acreas in various parts of the country which are being specially planted with ash to mark the GAA Centenary Year.

With the increasing emphasis nowadays on timber harvesting I should like to refer to the FWS Machine Operator Training Centre which has recently been provided at Mountrath at a cost of £115,000. As well as a training workshop, the centre includes office, canteen and leisure facilities. Training programmes will commence there within the next few months and while, initially, the main concentration will be on training the Department's own machine operators in the use of specialised harvesting equipment, such as forwarders, skidders, skyline units, etc., it is hoped at a later stage to expand the facilities to include training for private sector harvesting personnel.

In relation to amenity the funds required for the development of State forest amenities are also provided under subhead C.2. The policy of encouraging greater amenity and recreational use of State forests is continuing. The difficult financial climate in recent years has inevitably affected the provision of new facilities but I am glad to say that all existing areas are being managed to the traditional high standards. We now have a total of 11 forest parks throughout the country, apart, of course, from a range of lesser amenity developments at more than 400 other forest centres. The most recent of these forest parks was opened last week at Doneraile, County Cork. The beneficial effect of these amenities is amply manifested by continued public interest and it is gratifying to be able to say that more than 1.5 million visitors, many from abroad, now visit and enjoy the State forests annually.

During the past year a new caravan and camping park was opened in Currachase Forest Park, County Limerick, on a site provided by my Department. This development, undertaken by the MidWestern Regional Tourism Organisation (Shannonside) with the assistance of Bord Fáilte, has significantly enhanced the attractive facilities already available in this particular forest park.

Perhaps the most spectacular amenity development in the current year is the provision of a holiday chalet complex within Killykeen Forest Park, County Cavan, on the shores of Lough Oughter. This innovative and exciting venture, initiated by my Department — and, incidentally, using native timber throughout — is being financed jointly by the Government and the EEC Regional Development Fund. Contracts for the work, which is being undertaken by the Office of Public Works on behalf of my Department, have been finalised and construction is under way. I am confident that this project, when completed, will make a major contribution to the tourism potential of the region.

Subhead C.3. provides funds for the sawmills operated by my Department at Dundrum, County Tipperary, and Cong, County Mayo. The level of financial provision this year, which is approximately similar to that for 1983, will permit continuation of the on-going programme of modernisation of equipment and machinery and the general improvement of facilities at both sawmills.

I should add that the basic function of the sawmills is not to compete commercially with the private sawmilling sector but rather to provide the FWS with its own domestic requirements in a miscellany of sawn goods many of which are outside the normal range of items produced in the trade generally. In addition, the mills are increasingly engaged in research work in the sawing, grading and drying of timber as part of the ongoing FWS Research Programme carried out both by its own staff and through the IIRS.

The amount provided under subhead C4 — provision for Grant Assistance to Chipboard Products Limited — is intended merely as a token provision. I am pleased to announce that negotiations on the restructuring of the chipboard plant at Scariff, involving my Department and the Industrial Development Authority, have been sucessfully completed. A totally new private company, to be known as Finsa (Ireland) Limited, is being formed to acquire the assets of Chipboard Products Limited. It is expected to commence production in August next. By the end of 1984 Finsa plans to employ 110 people directly. As many as 60-70 jobs will arise in the harvesting and haulage of timber and as the project develops as Scariff further job opportunities are expected to arise. A long-term timber supply agreement between my Department and Finsa (Ireland) Limited has been concluded. This agreement, as well as assuring the new company of a proportion of its pulpwood requirements from State forests, will also facilitate the proper development of the forests. The agreement provides for payment of a positive price for State forest thinnings in contrast to the former arrangements whereby CPL not only received free timber but also enjoyed a harvesting subsidy of £7 per cubic metre. The arrangements are such as will afford a substantial outlet for sawmill residues and roundwood from private sources to meet the balance of the new company's requirements.

While the provision for private forestry grants in subhead D shows a slight reduction on last year's provision, this should not be interpreted as any dimunition of commitment by the Forest and Wildlife Service to private planting. Every encouragement will be given to applicants under the Department's planting grant schemes to undertake the afforestation of suitable lands and the FWS will continue to place its technical knowledge and expertise at the disposal of people interested in establishing forestry plantations on all or part of their lands.

I may say, however, that I am particularly disappointed at the lack of response by farmers in the west to the very generous grants available under the EEC Western Package for the afforestation of land marginal for agriculture but suitable for forestry. These grants amount to 85 per cent of the appoved costs of planting, subject to a maximum of £800 per hectare. I would strongly urge farmers to give serious consideration to planting any part of their holdings which is not capable of being used for agricultural purposes. Independent studies have shown that on certain types of lands higher rates of return may be obtained from forestry than from alternative land uses. Indeed EEC thinking also appears to be moving on these lines and a current draft EEC regulation strongly advocates engaging in forestry on land which is withdrawn from the production of agricultural commodities in over-supply. I may say that I am currently exploring some new possibilities which I hope will lead to a substantial expansion of the national afforestation programme through closer co-operative arrangements between my Department and private landowners.

I am, of course, only too well aware that there are historical, social and economic reasons for the relatively slow development of private forestry in Ireland in comparison with many other European countries. With a view to identifying the reasons for the lack of expansion of our private forestry sector the Forest and Wildlife Service recently held a very successful workshop entitled "Investment in Forestry — New Horizons". There was a full and frank discussion between the groups represented at the workshop of the factors inhibiting the expansion of the private forestry sector estate in Ireland. The Forest and Wildlife Service also took the opportunity during the workshop to launch a new brochure entitled "Investing in Forestry" which provides basic information relating to forestry operations and should prove helpful to those contemplating an investment in forestry but having no specialised forestry knowledge.

It is sometimes suggested that a special high-powered publicity drive should be undertaken to stimulate private forestry. While I would not rule out such a possibility, I believe that on-going promotion efforts will gradually produce better results. My Department are involved in activities such as advertising, publication of leaflets and brochures, media articles, exhibits at shows, contacts with rural organisations and so on. This campaign will be continued and intensified as much as possible and, in addition, greater emphasis will be placed on consultation with those other State agencies who have regular contacts with landowners with a view to promoting the forestry option as a worth-while form of land use.

Subhead E — Forestry Education — provides for the salaries, wages and allowances of inspectorate and domestic staff attached to Kinnitty Castle Training Centre and Avondale Extension School, as well as the general management expenses of both establishments. It also includes allowances for trainee foresters at Kinnitty up to March 1984.

The funds for maintenance and upkeep of the John F. Kennedy Park near New Ross, County Wexford, are provided under subhead F. The Park was opened in 1968 and now comprises 623 acres laid out and landscaped to provide facilities for education and research as well as for leisure and recreation. It includes an extensive arboretum, a forest garden and also a number of signposted scenic and arboreal walks, picnic sites, a visitor centre, car park and a combined cafe and shop. A total of 25 persons are employed in the park. To date 4,450 species and varieties have been planted and it is expected that this will increase to 6,000 ultimately. An average of 100,000 visitors visit the park each year.

The main provision in subhead G of the forestry vote relates to the remuneration of the wildlife ranger service which is very much involved in enforcing the hunting provisions of the Wildlife Act. For many years prior to 1983 subhead G also included a measure of assistance to regional game councils and others as a contribution to the cost of their game development schemes. Last year it was not possible to make any such provision but for 1984 — despite the continuing difficult economic situation — I felt that some provision, however modest it might have to be, in aid of the game movement was warranted. Accordingly, subhead G includes a sum of £10,000 which I trust will go some way towards defraying the organisational costs of game development. The Department will also continue to provide an advisory service for hunting organisations and others concerned with the development of game resources.

Funds for the wildlife conservation programme are provided for in subhead H, the provision for 1984 being £170,000. The Forest and Wildlife Service is making steady progress in this sphere despite the constraints imposed by the present economic situation. Research into wildlife habitats and species is a major element of the wildlife programme. The conservation of representative samples of sites of scientific importance is of particular concern, given the several competing land use demands.

The Forest and Wildlife Service has identified a number of such sites, of different types of ecosystems, around the country, particularly peatland areas, which are recommended for conservation as nature reserves. Most of them are privately owned and, having regard to the cost of either acquiring them or entering into management agreements with the owners, progress in affording them statutory protection will inevitably be slow. However, I am examining the possibility of securing some allocation of funds that would permit the conservation of at least the most vulnerable habitats in a systematic way. I am pleased to say that to date 19 nature reserves have been established and are being managed by my Department. This number is likely to be increased during the year.

Research on a number of what may be termed as "problem species", such as seals and mink and studies on species such as the Greenland whitefronted goose for which we have international responsibility, will continue.

Public demand for information on wildlife and conservation is extremely keen and my Department continue to update and expand their educational leaflets for distribution to the public, especially school children.

On the international front, nature conservation has wide implications. The FWS continues to participate in various international organisations at EEC, Council of Europe and other levels and every effort is being made to fulfil this country's obligations under the many directives, regulations and international conventions which have emerged in recent years.

The Wildlife Rangers corps, which, as I have already stated, contributes to the enforcement of the protective provisions of the Wildlife Act, 1976, also plays a significant role in fostering an enlightened approach to conservation by their efforts at local level.

I would like, at this point, to pay a very special tribute to the work of the Wildlife Advisory Council. I have now appointed the members of the council who will hold office for the next three years. This is a voluntary group whose advice on a wide variety of wildlife conservation topics is of tremendous value to me and to my Department.

The bulk of the funds in Subhead I are allocated to the Institute for Industrial Research and Standards for research on behalf of my Department. A major forestry objective is to ensure that the State timber resources are utilised to the best possible national advantage and to encourage import-substitution. This necessitates the continued utilisation of the expertise of the IIRS in the fields of timber technology and the promotion of native timber. The rapidly increasing output from State forests in the years ahead makes it imperative to have a continuous programme of research into the strength and durability of Irish timber, the development of preservation and drying techniques and the study of trends in timber usage — including the potential of timber-framed houses. This programme, funded by my Department, takes into account the forecast production of the large volume of wood, in different size-categories, which will come on stream during the 1980s and 1990s.

I referred briefly at the outset to the appropriations-in-aid of the forestry vote which are shown in Subhead J and which indicate the income accruing to the Forest and Wildlife Service. The substantial anticipated increase this year reflects the increasing buoyancy of the sawlog market and also the revenue from the sale of pulpwood through various outlets including the new medium density fibre-board plant at Clonmel. While obviously timber sales are and always will be the main source of income I may say that receipts from other sources — in particular some sporting rights lettings — have shown a welcome improvement in recent times.

Before concluding there are one or two general matters on which I would like to comment. While, as I have frequently stated, the public are always very welcome to avail themselves of the recreational and amenity facilities of the State forests, I would again stress the need for care in the prevention of fires. A fire can destroy in a few hours, not merely a very valuable public amenity but, even more important, an investment in the form of a plantation which will have taken many years and considerable public funds to develop. The Forest and Wildlife Service appreciates the co-operation given by the public down the years and which, thankfully, has kept fire damage to forests to a relatively low level. However, I make no apology for stating once more that many forest fires result from sheer carelessness or lack of thought and I would appeal for continued vigilance by the public particularly during periods of dry weather.

Apart from the fire and disease hazards which pose a threat to our forests, Deputies will no doubt be aware of an increasing concern which is being expressed in some continental countries, especially West Germany and Scandinavia, about the alleged damage to forests caused by acid rain. Acid rain is produced when sulphur dioxide and nitrogen dioxide, released into the air after the combustion of coal or oil, mix with moisture in the atmosphere and fall back to earth as dilute sulphuric or nitric acids. While, in our situation, the lack of heavy industry and the prevailing westerly winds have reduced the likelihood of Irish forests being affected by acid rain, we cannot afford to be complacent and steps have been taken to monitor the rainfall and provide an early warning system should any deterioration occur. Incidentally, this monitoring system is being extended to cover lakes, as there is some evidence that acid rain can also be damaging to fish life.

I have now dealt at some length with the two Estimates involved in the Department of Fisheries and Forestry. If there are any other aspects which Deputies feel I should have mentioned and on which they require information I will only be too pleased to furnish it in my reply to the debate. Meanwhile, I commend the estimates to the House and look forward to the comments from Deputies from all sides.

We have heard for some time idealistic speeches from various people about the need to develop our natural resources and to create a situation, where from within our own resources, many of our unemployment and economic problems can be resolved. While we have heard all this before it is scarcely possible for the present Minister for Fisheries and Forestry, or indeed any Minister, to effectively operate in the two key Departments of which he has charge and work miracles, with a budget of less than 1 per cent of the total national expenditure. Could we at this stage get the message across to all of those who have made these very dramatic speeches — and some of them are present Cabinet Ministers — that, unless they are prepared to match the percentage of national expenditure with what is needed to exploit our national resources, we cannot deal effectively with these two key areas or indeed with any of the other areas which concern our natural resources. Both Departments have done magnificent work within the limits of the financial constraints which are upon them.

As we did not have a debate on the Estimate since the retirement of the previous Secretary of the Department, Mr. Power, could I, on this occasion, on behalf of this side of the House, express my good wishes to Mr. Power on his retirement. He has given dedicated service in the Department over the years and I would like to wish him a very happy retirement. Could we equally welcome the new Secretary of the Department, Mr. Whooley, and assure him of our co-operation and advice in the future. I know he is capably assisted by two very able assistant secretaries, Mr. Kerin and Mr. Callanan. I have no doubt that he will get good advice from them. Could we take this opportunity to wish him every success in the Department. We have had a very high level of competence and expertise in the Department over the years and we look forward to a continuation of that with his guidance and assistance.

Unfortunately I have to take a different line in relation to the Minister, because I am tempted to quote here from the IFO news for the first quarter of 1984 which sums up in the first few sentences the Government's policy on fisheries. It says: "live horse and you will get grass". That appears to be the Government's policy for the fishing industry. The IFO had some meetings with the Minister. In one, held on 8 May, they were expressing extreme dissatisfaction. The Minister, on almost all the subjects discussed, was vague, ambiguous and at times totally incomprehensible. This is the IFO view which I do not totally share but it is an indication of the general view there is throughout the industry and the economy in the area of sea fisheries.

With the completion of the Common Fisheries Policy, it is necessary that the Government should now come forward with a detailed comprehensive plan to deal with the developments that will take place in the industry immediately and over the next ten to 20 years, which is the term of the Common Fisheries Policy agreement. We have been watching very carefully developments since the Common Fisheries Policy was concluded and there seems to be a lack of an overall strategy and coherent plan within the Department to deal with problems in the industry. It is true to say that the policy which is being operated at present, both by the Department and by BIM, is largely a policy which was developed 20 years ago or thereabouts and which has been relatively successful in dealing with the difficulties experienced by the industry at that time. It is equally true to say that circumstances have dramatically changed. The whole industry is changing. The whole industry worldwide and within the EEC and here at home is changing. There is a need to look at that policy in the context of the overall Common Fisheries Policy agreement and see where we can, within the terms of that agreement, put down our own policies, plans and national strategy in the various areas which need to be dealt with. We want to see an overall approach being followed to deal with the industry in the future which involves people other than the Minister, the Department and BIM. It involves people, in the catching sector and in the processing and marketing areas. We can, with them and if necessary in consultation with the representatives of the fishermen, lay down a detailed policy to deal with some of the issues that are arising now and that will arise in the future as the Common Fisheries Policy begins to operate.

It is difficult to isolate any one problem in the industry at present from the overall industry itself. In my estimation many sectors within the industry are interdependent, and while you may resolve a difficulty in one area you create another one some place else. Because of the fact that there are so many interrelated problems in the industry it is difficult to identify the areas that need urgent attention.

Perhaps what comes to mind most is the claim, made on numerous occasions by the representatives of the fishermen and by many individual fishermen, that a sizeable proportion of those engaged in fishing activities are now in severe financial difficulties. It has been stated that up to 80 per cent of the skippers and boat owners are in financial difficulties. I do not accept that figure. I think it is less than that; but, nevertheless, it is a cause for concern. I think the Minister is rightly concerned about it. We know from recent statements he made that there is a problem there which needs to be dealt with very quickly unless all confidence in the industry is to be undermined. We must avoid that. The problem seems to be that some people, for one reason or another, do not seem to be able to be viable now or do not appear to have any prospect of being viable in the future. If that is the situation then let us identify those people, and let us see whether the problem can be resolved or not. If it cannot be resolved and if there is no place for them within the industry, then some other place must be found for them within the overall fishing activity here that will ensure that they remain within the industry.

I do not think we can afford to lose anybody from it. We have suggested previously that there are ways of dealing with that. There is a possibility of arriving at a situation through the organisation of BIM and the Department whereby people who, for whatever reason, are not viable in their operations are directed into other areas where work needs to be done, such as research into new techniques, species or fisheries. They can through the assistance of BIM, be directed in such a way that they will have a part to play in the industry. They can help to identify new fisheries, species, new fishing grounds and new methods of fishing. They could also get involved in research into trying out new cost-saving techniques.

All these matters can have a very important bearing on the remainder of the fleet. I do not share the view expressed by many people that the situation now in the industry is that you have too many fishermen chasing too few fish. I do not accept the view that if you take out some of the fishermen and share out whatever fish they are catching with the others, that would necessarily solve the other peoples' problems. I do not think that is the case at the present time. I feel that for many of these people there is a very valid reason why this situation has come about. They have a valuable contribution to make within the industry as a whole, if this can be recognised and identified and if the necessary funding can be arranged through the State and BIM or, indeed, through some fishermen's fund of their own, which I think is essential at this time. It has been mentioned in other contexts that there may be need for a fisherman's bank which will be self-financed by fishermen themselves, perhaps with some investment by the State or investment by other people involved in the industry. This idea has been looked at in other countries when similar crisis situations arose there. Perhaps there is a need for that type of arrangement here now.

In addition, some new initiatives might well be tried out which would not only ensure that you would have capital available for further investment in every sector of the industry but that you would have a financial "kitty" which would tide people over the very difficult patches. We all know that one of the difficulties in the industry is the seasonality of it and the fact that at times people do pretty well and at other times have lean periods. In order to balance that out across the board, perhaps over a one-year, two-year or a five-year period, it would be necessary to have some type of fund of that kind that would ensure that there was continuity in the fisherman's income at a time when he meets difficulties.

The discontinuation of welfare payments to fishermen has been raised from time to time. We have seen how successful the enterprise allowance scheme has been in the creation of job opportunities, because under it a man's unemployment payments are continued while at the same time he is endeavouring to start a new enterprise. We have had a very successful story there. We have seen many new jobs created and many industries survive. Many new industries have been started up under that scheme which has been just newly organised. If we could have some type of similar scheme in relation to the fishing industry to enable people get over the very difficult periods, it would be very useful. It would apply also in a situation, which we have had on many occasions here, in which many fishermen were forced because of bad weather conditions to abandon their efforts. You would then have some overall fund which would compensate people for loss of earnings whenever they were unable to continue fishing activities.

These are all ideas that can be passed around within the Department. You can look at what has been done in other places. For instance the Task Force on Canadian fisheries identified a whole range of options of this nature which could be undertaken. They, like ourselves, had similar problems in the coastal communities of Canada, where an enormous number of people are dependent on the fishing industry. We can learn from the experiences in other places lessons we can apply to our situation here.

I mentioned the need to embark on research into new species and to exploit new species. In relation to the stock situation at present no one can be totally satisfied. People in the business have experienced stock problems with the traditional species which have been fished here. Conservation measures will have to play a key role in any national policy developed in the future. At the same time, there seems to be a variety of species which are relatively unexploited. Opportunities exist in the non-traditional areas which have not been exploited to date. We need as a matter of urgency research facilities to identify these areas and species. We need research vessels. The Lough Cultra is doing some magnificent work under the guidance of the National Board of Science and Technology. I would like to compliment them. We have an economic zone with huge potential relatively unexploited in fisheries and many other areas also and while the Lough Cultra is doing some magnificent work it is not a research vessel as such. We need a modern, sophisticated fisheries research vessel with the full back-up services such a vessel requires. This can provide opportunities not only for fishermen but in many other areas also.

In the last couple of years the situation has been that hundreds of foreign research vessels from all over the world, Polish vessels, Bulgarian vessels, East European and American vessels have been operating within our economic zone. I know there is an arrangement whereby information can be obtained from them in particular areas but we need to give a lead in this regard; we need our own research vessel and our own expertise. Of course we can learn from the experience of others operating in our waters but we need our own research facilities. The sooner we have them the better. Even though people may say that there are economic constraints which make it impossible at present, all of us know that unless one is prepared to make major investments of this kind, unless there is the will and the commitment to do this we cannot complain if we are failing to exploit the opportunities that are there. If you point out the usefulness, benefit and importance from a national point of view of such a facility, and can clearly demonstrate how important it is to have that type of research vessel available, most people would readily agree that the funds should be provided for it.

We all know that fishing is a highly skilled and technical area now. It is no longer a case of going out and throwing a net down for a couple of hours and hauling it in and then selling your catch. It is a completely different ball game now. As Minister I went on a fishing trip with a fisherman from the south-west coast and it was, indeed, an education and an experience. I do not know whether the Minister has been on a fishing trawler since he took up office but I would thoroughly recommend it, especially in the summer. Despite the feelings of the IFO at present I am sure they would not throw the Minister over board and it would be a worthwhile exercise — as important as the Minister's visit to Japan. It would be a worthwhile exercise to see how fishing activity operates at present. It is certainly an exercise which would give an indication of the type of training and expertise that is needed. Fishing would provide job opportunities in a native industry. With proper training and expertise young people can play a very important and useful role in that industry. They will also have very useful and gainful employment at home in their own regions.

In both the regional context and in the employment context development of fishing activities along the regional areas and extreme coastal communities would secure job opportunities there for young people. The Minister, coming from a western constituency, like myself, fully appreciates the need to do this.

There is an urgent need now to invest heavily in the training of young fishermen. This is an area in which the Youth Employment Agency must become more involved. Perhaps it is not the function of the Department of Fisheries and Forestry or, indeed, of BIM, to become involved in this kind of activity. The training and educational facilities which exist must be utilised and directed to a greater extent into that area. Bodies like AnCO, the Youth Employment Agency, National Manpower, the vocational schools and the educational system generally with assistance and guidance from BIM can get involved in a far more constructive and positive way than has been the case up to now. They can demonstrate clearly to the people involved what needs to be done, what must be done and what can be done and where useful employment can be found in that area with proper training, skill, incentive and guidance in the future. This is an area that needs to be looked at very carefully and it cannot be done under the present financial constraints in the Department of Fisheries and Forestry.

I mentioned the Minister's trip to Japan, which I welcome. It is important that we exploit fully the market opportunities for fish abroad. At the same time it is depressing to find that the Minister has to embark on these initiatives — I had to do the same in Egypt and other places — to seek markets for Irish fish abroad. It is depressing to read the report of the monitoring committee on food imports which was recently issued by the Department of Agriculture. They have a section dealing with fish imports. Imports under the heading of fish preparations generally, such as fish fingers and other products, amounted to £25.5 million in 1982. They include relatively low grade canned Pacific pink salmon. I suppose there is a market for that here but I do not know whether we can supply that ourselves.

The Minister must surely explain to the House why herring and mackerel imports were valued at £5.2 million in 1982. Perhaps some of these were Irish fish which came across the Border. I am not sure about that. Some of these figures relating to imports are alarming. The Minister is embarking on campaigns in Japan, Sierra Leone and recently in Paris to seek markets for Irish fish. We are importing enormous quantities of fish. There must be scope for import substitution. There must be scope in the area of white fish because we imported £12 million of white fish in 1982 of which £8 million was spent on fish fingers which are usually manufactured by the multi-national companies like Findus and Birds Eye, who have big markets. There must be scope for us in joint ventures with multi-national corporations so that we can utilise our fish products to gain useful jobs, very valuable revenue for the State and above all security for our industry at a time when industry is not secure. This can be achieved by import substitution, exploiting our own home markets, utilising our own products and more secondary processing. It is important that we look at this whole area. We need the foreign markets. Our aim should first of all be to satisfy as far as possible our own market demands with our fish products. If investment is needed to achieve this then let us make the investment.

It has been argued that there is a need to refurbish some of the boats. If we are to satisfy the white fish market we would need larger boats. These are all policy issues on which we would like a clear direction from the Department. There is no clear-cut policy to deal with a situation where some people at the present time need further fishing capacity and others are going out of business. Is it a fact that we do not have sufficiently large boats to exploit the deeper sea areas? Is it that we have not sufficient investment in the larger boats? Can we at this stage refurbish, remodel and rebuild some of the smaller boats in order to make them more effective? There is great need for the Department and BIM to look very carefully at the question of modernising and refurbishing the fleet with a view to both future and the present needs.

We must be very cautious about marine pollution. I will refer to pollution in more detail when dealing with inland fisheries. We recently passed a motion approving the terms of the Convention on the Prevention of Pollution from Land Sources. On that occasion I expressed the view, especially in the area of the Irish Sea that the problem in Windscale has become so complicated, possibly so enormous, that there is only one solution and that is to close it down. While that may seem alarmist and unrealistic, we must recognise that when the British government felt there was a danger of pollution they closed down the beaches. It would be far easier to close down the source of pollution. There is evidence to show that there is no danger to fish in the Irish Sea at present; nevertheless we cannot be complacent about this. We must utilise our fisheries Department and defence and our naval services in the fight against marine pollution in the Irish Sea or any place else. I would urge the Minister very strongly to take control of the whole marine pollution question. We have far too many Departments and bureaucracies involved in this matter. The Departments of Communications, Environment, Health and Fisheries are all involved in this area. There is bound to be confusion. There is a need at this stage to give responsibility for the whole marine pollution control to one Minister and he should have close contact with his counterpart in the UK.

Even though the evidence indicates that there is no danger to fish in the Irish Sea, at the same time we must be very cautious about this. I do not think we can allow the situation to continue much longer where the uncertainty about Windscale is causing uncertainty in our markets. People are not buying fish because of this. It needs to be monitored very carefully. The responsibility should be with the Minister. If he had that responsibility and if he could utilise the fishery protection services as he does the Naval Service, a more determined effort could be made to stamp out the risks that might arise from any marine pollution.

We recently had some controversy about the situation in Castletownbere. Perhaps the Minister would indicate what the situation is now in relation to the Eiranova plant in Castletownbere. There are reports that it is closing down. There has been some concern about the plant for some time. It is important for the fishermen that job opportunities would be created in places like Castletownbere. It is possible within the present legislation to find a solution whereby the jobs can be saved at the plant there. I would urge the Minister to look very carefully at the situation and not rush into any decisions which could unnecessarily close down the plant and to give us some indication of the situation. It is important that people other than those engaged directly in fishing activities be considered. The fish processing plant in Castletownbere is, for many fishermen and their families, their only source of income. This situation should be analysed very carefully to see in what way, if any, the closure can be avoided.

I mentioned earlier the need for vigilance in relation to the stock situation and the need to conserve our stocks. We all know that the situation regarding many species of fish is unpredictable. Prices can be drastically reduced without very much notice and this creates a certain amount of chaos for fishermen, processors and marketers. We should educate people to realise that where you over-fish or damage the stocks you are damaging the prospect of renewal of the resource and damaging your long-term survival in the business. There could be a far greater awareness by people in the industry of the importance of conservation. People in the industry must be educated as to the importance of fish conservation and the need for greater investment in the area which would give us a better awareness of what the true stock situation is. The unpredictable situation has led to many problems in fishing activities over the past number of years. We saw it in the Celtic Sea in relation to herring and it is not too clear now what the stock situation is in relation to herring. People say it is not as bad as it would appear but it seems to be getting worse. We are unsure of what the stock situation is in relation to mackerel. It is vitally important, especially now, because of our dependence on mackerel fishing that we would know accurately and precisely what the mackerel stock situation is. If there are any fears about the future of the mackerel stock position we should know in advance so that steps could be taken to deal with that. We must exercise more pressure in seeing that the Community and the members of the Community abide by the regulations and obey the laws. There have been complaints from time to time that while we are strictly enforcing our own conservation measures here other members of the Community are not abiding equally by their regulations. We would need to look at that and see if it can be resolved if there is a problem.

Many fishermen are concerned about the accession of the Spanish fishermen into the EEC. The organisation which represents the fishermen has already complained at the way the negotiations have been handled. They feel, rightly or wrongly, that there is not that willingness on the part of the Minister for Fisheries and the Minister for Foreign Affairs to deal effectively with this issue. They are concerned also because of the fact that during Ireland's Presidency the terms for conclusion of the Spanish entry to the Community are likely to be finalised and there is a genuine fear to see if Spanish accession will mean an invasion of Spanish boats into Irish waters. I have noticed that up to now the negotiations seem to be reasonably satisfactory; certainly, in relation to Portugal they seem to be reasonably satisfactory. But there must be a very firm decision taken by the Government, and especially by the Minister, to oppose any Spanish entry into Irish fishing areas.

There have been controls and limitations on the Spanish activity up to now but we have seen time and again breaches of the legislation by Spanish fishermen. We have seen time after time Spanish boats being taken in and charged in Castletownbere, Rossaveel, and other areas along the coastline for breaches of the existing regulations, which are reasonably satisfactory. In the event of Spanish entry into the Community, I can see major problems arising with any watering down of that arrangement and especially on the south-west coast if there is any weakening of our position. I would like to express to the Minister our concern to see that he would take a firm line in relation to the negotiations on the Spanish entry with regard to the fishing industry and ensure that whatever final arrangement is concluded there will be no watering down of our position. There should be a very strong line taken in response to any attempt by the Spanish government to seek fishing rights within the Irish fishing zone.

One area which has been the subject of much discussion in the last number of days has been the area of maricultural fish farming developments. I would like to compliment the Department on the enlightened approach which they have adopted up to now in relation to this. Later in the year inquiries are being held to identify the areas where licences will be granted for the maricultural operations. That is a very timely and important step. We all know about the valuable work that has been done already in relation to the development of our maricultural fish farming activities. We recognise that there is a huge potential here which can be exploited only with very careful management and development.

We must be cautious of pollution and cautious of people's rights. We must also be cautious to ensure that any development which takes place is evenly spread out between the various people involved and who are interested to become involved. We can direct investment in order to create job opportunities in many of the isolated areas through an enlightened and dynamic maricultural development programme. We feel that any investment there would be a worthwhile one. A lot of research has been done; a lot of the scientific examination and whatever is necessary to develop the fisheries has been undertaken. What now needs to be done is to identify clearly where it is to be done, who is going to do it to get it under way. I know that some useful developments have already taken place and I would encourage the Minister to press ahead with the developments in these areas which will have very beneficial effects on the prospect of creating job opportunities and a very useful service in bringing new ideas and new technology into areas which will satisfy the demands that are there for fish and fish products and create the environment where we can have more fish farming than we have had up to now.

Before I leave the sea fisheries area there are one or two things I want to mention. One is in relation to the need to invest in the development of our harbours. In many cases the harbours are in a deplorable state. In my own constituency we had the collapse of Doolin Pier. I would like to take this opportunity to congratulate Clare County Council and the county engineer, Mr. Gleeson, and the members of the county council and the Department of Fisheries for the magnificent job they have done at Doolin and which was completed recently. Tragically there was a loss of life before this happened. An excellent job has been done at Doolin and at very little expense.

The experience at Doolin would give a very clear indication to the Minister of what can be done with a small investment which is well managed and with the involvement of people other than the Department of Fisheries and the Board of Works. I made the point on a previous debate of the importance of a harbour or pier in an isolated area from the point of view of aspects other than fisheries aspect. One such aspect is tourism but there are other interests who have a contribution to make in the development of harbours. The development of harbours should not be totally left to the Department of Fisheries. Other interested parties should invest in the development of our harbour infrastructure especially the small harbours. Doolin is an excellent example of what can be done with an enlightened county engineer and an enlightened council such as we have in County Clare, deciding to do a job in a very short time and very efficiently. It shows what can be done in many of these areas.

There is a need in many of the smaller areas to deal with harbour developments. Deputy Faulkner and I, along with the leader of our party, Deputy Haughey, met a deputation from Clogherhead and they are rightly concerned about the pier there. Examinations and studies have been going on for years, but the pier is deteriorating further day by day. Eventually, we will have a situation where we will have the total collapse of the pier, which will cost an enormous amount to have replaced; but the money will have to be found then. I would ask the Minister to look again at the subhead in relation to investment in harbours, and especially smaller harbours, to see if it would be possible to get some assistance through the FEOGA Fund or the Regional Fund to supplement the moneys he has for undertaking harbour development work in order to make these places safe and adequate for the needs of the fishing industry. Like Doolin, Clogherhead can be of very beneficial advantage to many other sections of the community there. Louth County Council have taken a lead and have done research and employed consultants. At this stage what needs to be done is to identify very clearly the requirements and to get the project under way as soon as possible before the Clogherhead pier collapses. The amount of damage that would be done to industry there would be almost unbelievable.

Clogherhead brings home to me also the further menace of submarines at sea. We have seen what happened in the Clogherhead area with the sinking of the Sharelga in April 1982 and the Oriel in 1984 and others like the French boat which was sunk in 1983. Can we get some indication from the Minister and from the Minister for Foreign Affairs as to how they propose to deal with that issue and would they not at this stage take a very firm stand? There is some backing there from the United Nations Law of the Sea Convention which can give some authority to introduce legislation here, at least to control the operations of these submarines within our territorial waters. While accidents have in some cases been outside territorial waters, nevertheless there have been complaints from time to time of unidentified submarine activities within our territorial areas and we can through the Law of the Sea Convention control that activity. At least we should do that much and see what we can do by way of our involvement in the United Nations or the Common Market to finding some other way of dealing with the position.

I might also mention in relation to the sinking of the Sharelga that, to the best of my knowledge, Mr. McEvoy, the skipper of the boat, has not yet been compensated by the British authorities even though the British Ministry of Defence admitted liability and responsibility and said that they would pay compensation. On the information I have got from the Deputies from that area, and Deputy Faulkner in particular, he has not yet been paid. He has suffered severe loss of earnings since his boat was sunk due to the loss of his boat and the loss of his gear. At this stage it should be possible to get the British authorities to compensate him. If not the Minister here should do it and try to make some arrangements with the British authorities.

The whole area of marine infrastructure, communications and development is very essential for the proper development of our sea fisheries. The final word I would say on that is to try and impress upon the Minister the need to co-ordinate the activities of different Departments. For instance, would it be possible for the Minister to use his influence to improve telecommunications, because they are important for the whole community and the fishing ports? It is important to have boat facilities; it is important to have water facilities; it is important to have facilities for refrigeration. All these things are vitally important for a thriving industry and there must be investment in them if we are going to see the industry thrive.

Finally, I would like to compliment BIM on their activities in dealing with the industry. I have found them in my experience to be understanding and to have a very great knowledge of the problems in the industry. What they seem to be lacking is the overall policy direction. Here could I express regret at the departure of Vivion Murray who was chairman of the board. He demonstrated a very mature and realistic and confident approach to the development of our sea fisheries during his term of office. I would like to see that position in BIM filled. I have a suspicion that one of the reasons it has not been filled is that the Minister has been awaiting the outcome of the election in the Connacht-Ulster Euro constituency. I sincerely hope that is not the case as there are many people of expertise and ability to fill these positions. I sincerely hope that the Minister will fill that vacancy soon and that he will realise how important it is that a man of the stature, ability and competence of Vivion Murray be appointed to that position.

I would like to speak now about inland fisheries and the need to invest both in manpower and in resources. The people on the Central and Regional Fisheries Boards, which were restructured, must be the most disillusioned people in the business. They have been short of staff and short of money and they have been unable to make any worthwhile plans for the development of the whole inland fishery structure. In the regional boards they have had the same problems — shortage of money and shortage of staff, hopelessly equipped to deal with the hazards of poachers and pollution and the countless other problems they have. They have had difficulties in their relations with their employees which I hope are resolved now and will not recur.

One thing we do not need at this time is a strike of fishery protection people at the height of the inland fishing season. When the pressure is on from pollution and from poachers and the whole industry is in a very precarious position, the one thing we do not want is a strike and every effort must be made to avoid that. There are still grievances arising from the last dispute. Let the people who have responsibility to resolve those resolve them. If it is a question that they are not satisfied with the outcome of their recent discussions and deliberations then surely the way for them to approach it is to talk to the Labour Court. They should go back and find a solution rather than put the whole valuable inland fisheries in jeopardy by taking strike action at this time. I would appeal to them not to go ahead with a strike. A strike can only do further damage to an already damaged industry.

The Estimate clearly shows there is little prospect of dealing with the difficult areas they have to deal with. We have heard from time to time that salmon stocks are in danger and are likely to be wiped out. I do not subscribe to that view. I think salmon stocks are in jeopardy the same as many other stocks are. With proper management, control and proper development policies the stocks can be preserved and expanded. There are indications, if one can judge by the catches that have taken place, although I would not always go by that, that there is a very urgent necessity for the Minister for Fisheries to give the fullest backing to the Central Fisheries Board and especially now to the regional and fisheries boards to press ahead with the development policy for inland fisheries so that we can see clearly what their targets are, how they are going to go about that and so that we will not see developments being held up in certain regions because of the absence of a central overall policy to deal with the situation.

I would encourage the Minister for Fisheries to make the necessary finances available. He certainly has not made provisions in this Estimate for the work that has to be done at this time. We all know that the central board and the regional board were caught up in the staff embargo. We know they were left hopelessly short of staff. I feel at this stage a case can be made to seek some deviation from the ongoing embargo to enable them to take on the people they need so badly. I would urge the Minister to seek immediately some derogation in that embargo on recruitment for the Central and Regional Fisheries Boards so that they can endeavour to hire people and pay them to do the job that needs to be done at this time. It is useless talking about controls in fishing activity, controlling nets or whatever, unless you can give the manpower and resources to the boards to do what they know needs to be done. Otherwise you are putting the industry at risk. It is essential that we should do this at this time.

I would like as well to say how I regret the untimely death of the late Christy Deasy who was chairman of the Central Fisheries Board. He was a man who gave a life-long service to the development of inland fisheries. He was the man who impressed upon me, when I took office, the need to go down and buy a particular fishery in the west. He said, "You will find the money some place for it whether it is by way of the fisheries Vote or the forestry Vote or a combination of the two. You cannot allow a fishery like that to pass into foreign ownership or out of the control of the Irish Government." It was mainly through his work and his involvement that fisheries like that were acquired by the State. It has been a magnificent achievement and will prove to be one of the wisest decisions that has been made in inland fisheries in recent times. We need to do more of that. We regret the death of Christy Deasy and I hope his position as chairman of the central board will be filled as soon as possible. We need people in these positions if they are going to give any direction to the whole fisheries programme. It is important and essential that these key vacancies be filled at the earliest possible opportunity with men of the expertise and the ability and the knowledge of the late Christy Deasy who can chart the future course of inland fisheries for us.

We have been totally devastated in recent days by reports of fish kills all over the place. There is scarcely a day you pick up the paper that you do not read of a fish kill in Ireland north, south, east and west of the country. It is most depressing. As Minister I was harassed with the same complaint. There was scarcely a day during the summer months while I was Minister that we did not either have it in the Evening Press or the Evening Hearld or the daily papers a report of pig slurry flowing down a river or other damage being done to a fishery. They have been built up at enormous cost in labour and resources by local people in their own areas. They invested money out of their own pockets in stock and development programmes and even, in some cases, hired their own private people to protect the fisheries for them. It is terrible to find that they were wiped out overnight through carelessness, neglect or ignorance or a combination of all three. I do not think we can afford that kind of situation in this country at this time.

I was appalled recently to see a report of a mountain of pig slurry moving down a fishery in County Limerick and devastating the river from one end to the next. This must be avoided. We have to get co-operation between the local authorities, the farming organisations, the cooperatives and all who are involved. We must give the direction back to the Minister for Fisheries to control the situation.

While I have the greatest regard for the local authorities and the greatest regard for the work and dedication of the people in those areas, I feel that it was a mistake to hand over the control of water pollution to the county councils and the local authorities. The control should have been left with the regional fisheries boards who had been dealing with it since they were established, who knew exactly how to deal with it effectively and quickly. There is a need at this time, if we cannot change the regulations, to bring the fisheries boards and the local authorities together so that we can avoid these situations. This is a disgraceful situation and I do not think we can allow it to continue any longer. Every effort must be made to ensure that this type of wanton destruction is prevented and no effort should be spared by the Minister and the Department. I would urge him immediately to call in the regional fisheries boards managers and ask them to go out now and undertake a campaign in each of their areas to see where the danger spots are and to take action immediately to see that the effects of those are avoided.

I have ranged over a number of areas. I would put them all in a nutshell by saying that what we would like to see is a comprehensive policy to deal with the future of the industry, to set out clearly for everyone to know, in consultation with the people involved what the policies are in relation to the development of our industry for the next 20 years to tie in with the Common Fisheries Policy agreement, to embark on a comprehensive training scheme for young fishermen to get them involved in new technologies and new techniques and new areas and new methods of fishing, to do a crash programme of development in the harbours, to repair and reconstruct them and if necessary to seek aid from the Regional Fund and FEOGA funds to do that. We should provide our own research vessel now and increase investment in research and development here which will have support, I am sure, from the National Board of Science and Technology, the Institute for Industrial Research and Standards and many other agencies also, and go out and identify the new species and the new fishing areas so that we can have other species and other fishing grounds to back up our present traditional fisheries. We should develop the aquacultural and maricultural fish farming areas where I would see prospects of 4,000 to 5,000 jobs in the next two to three years if this is done properly and supervised and established effectively. There is a need within the Department for a new aquaculture unit which would deal specifically with the aquacultural section and embodied in that aquacultural unit there should be a grant scheme to cover projects like this and to cover loans especially, because people engaging in these kind of activities will find there is a fairly sizeable investment which can be funded from the EEC but they will need to get loan facilities. There is a need for the Department to come in there with a loan scheme which will help in undertaking those projects.

It is essential that we develop secondary processing if we are to create the job opportunities and make the whole industry sound. We need to create something like 2,000 jobs there and this can be done if we do the secondary processing and not export our fish in the primary stage. For one job at the primary stage you can have seven to ten jobs at the secondary stage. One has only to measure that against our fisheries to see the number of jobs that can be created. We need a dynamic chairman for the Central Fisheries Board and for BIM. If those areas are dealt with we will be going some way towards dealing with some of the problems we have in the fishing industry at present.

I would like to speak for a few minutes about the other section of the Minister's speech today dealing with the timber industry. Timber production is a labour intensive industry and a more vigorous policy here would certainly play a very major part in reducing our present critical employment situation. Development of our timber industry is very important because of its very nature. The wood industry, like fishing, is situated in isolated areas, close to the rural communities where job opportunities can be provided in scattered locations right across the countryside. It has a very important bearing on our whole regional development so it is essential that we look clearly at our timber policy. It would have an ongoing effect on a whole range of other related industries, from furniture to papermaking. In 1979 we imported in the region of £300 million worth of wood and wood products. Eighty-six per cent of this could have been produced at home. Because of our climate we can produce timber at a faster rate that any other country in the European Community. It has been estimated that the growth rate here is even higher than the forecasts which were originally made. It is also estimated that a pound's worth of timber in the forest in value added can be worth up to £20 from a chipboard plant and up to probably £30 or £35 from a paper mill. The rate of return from the processing of our timber both in the pulp processing and in the further stages of processing is enormous. We have not exploited that. We have not even scratched the surface.

It is indicated that the UK will be importing 75 per cent of their domestic needs well into the next century. We should not ignore that market. The consumption of wood and wood products in the EEC is expected to rise, probably double, in the next five to ten years. Here we have the EEC with enormous demands for wood and likely to have enormous demands over the next number of years. We have the timber here. What we need to do now is to exploit that timber resource which has been built up to its present state through investment over 40 to 50 years.

A sum of £400 million to £500 million has been spent by the taxpayer to develop the forest industry to the stage at which it is. It is, at this stage, important that we would continue the investment which has been made. It would be a mistake for people to think that because we have invested so heavily up to now and because we have reached a certain stage that we can pull back now and not invest further in the processing and exploitation of the investments which we have made. It is essential that we have the courage now to continue the cycle and continue to invest so that we can exploit the benefits of the investment we have made and that we can, through the development of our timber, provide jobs here at home for ourselves and save ourselves the enormous bills we have been paying out to import timber which we can successfully grow here at home. It does not make sense and it is important that we would recognise this as soon as possible.

I was disappointed at the decision last June not to continue the investment which the Government made in Scariff. It was a mistake. There is no need to go into it in detail now. We went through it all before. The decision to withdraw the Government investment in Scarriff was a major mistake on the part of the Government. We have now allowed a situation to arise where a foreign company, welcome and all as the company is, has been allowed to come in and take up where the Government were not prepared to make an investment themselves. It does not sound right to me that at a time when there are economic problems all over the European Community and where communities everywhere are having difficulty that a foreign company can come in here and recognise that there is potential in the development in Scarriff for a chipboard mill and where our own native Government did not have the courage or the wisdom to invest in it themselves. The Scarriff project is welcome. I am disappointed that the work-force there is about a third of what was there in the previous company. It is disappointing also that some Irish companies claim they did not get an adequate opportunity to invest in the project themselves. They claim they would have been prepared to come in themselves had they known that it was possible to make a satisfactory arrangement. It is a cause of concern to people that native companies who appear to have the capital, who appear to have the expertise and the will to get involved in the company for some reason did not get an opportunity, or at least they claim they did not get the opportunity, to get involved in the restructured operation at Scarriff. It can be debated later on when we get clearer information as to what did actually happen. Certainly the new plant in Scarriff will be welcome there and it will be supported by the people of Scarriff. We will give it every support. It certainly would be much easier to support our own Irish companies had they been involved in restructuring that company and reinvesting in that company and reopening that operation and getting much needed jobs back into that area.

In the whole timber area there is a need now for a new Government policy. I have said this in relation to fisheries. It is equally true in in the case of forestry development. There has been widespread criticism of the timber marketing arrangements in the Department, not that people are critical of the Department, they are critical of the mechanisms and the procedures with which the Department are tied down. These are established procedures involving every Government Department involved in a similar situation. People feel now, at this stage of development of our forestry, that there is a need for a more dynamic approach within the whole marketing area and that there is a need for new structures to deal with that. There is a need for a new agency, a new type of commercial orientated mechanism which will exploit fully the commercial possibilities of our forests.

We have already said there is a need to establish a review body which would identify the best method of organising the timber marketing organisation in the area. Other people would claim there is a need for a new commercial semi-State operation, something like An Post or Telecom Éireann, to handle our timber marketing areas. This is something the Minister will have to make a decision on pretty soon because one thing that is quite clear is that regardless of the difference of opinion that may exist as to what is the best possible procedure or solution for dealing with the issue now or in the future, there is a general acceptance throughout the industry, and perhaps by the Minister as well who recognised this by setting up an inter-departmental committee to look at the system, that the system we have at present is not adequate. There is a need to do something and to do it soon. I would urge the Minister to get about that fairly soon. That should be central to any fisheries development policy we would see emerging over the next number of years.

I think the present situation where the State planting programme is in decline and has not reached the stated objectives must be remedied whether you remedy that by way of getting more joint ventures — more farmers and people to go in with you where they will jointly lease with the Department and make some kind of joint arrangement to get more plantable land available — or otherwise. There is a crisis in relation to the land bank which is at the disposal of the Department. Measures have to be identified and taken fairly quickly in order to deal with that situation. The position cannot be allowed to continue where the land bank is declining and where the targets which have been set down and which had been broadly maintained over the last number of years are not being maintained now. We must look at this very carefully.

All of us share the Minister's disappointment that the western package is not being maintained. It is hard to direct people away from what they have been traditionally doing in fisheries or in agriculture or in any other sector. In less favoured areas there are sizeable amounts of marginal land not suitable for agricultural purposes and never will be suitable but which are suitable for planting. These plantable land reserves must be utilised and arrangements must be made which will ensure that they are utilised in the future. This can be done if the Department can embark upon a scheme of joint ventures with farmers who have plantable divisions of land and ensure that during the early stages, when a farmer might not see a worthwhile return, that some return would be given in the short-term until such time as the forestry itself begins to make returns from the investment.

In many cases the Department should make the investment and carry out a leasing arrangement which would not involve the farmer in any major investment in the early stages. One of the failures of the western package has been that farmers tend to look on their return from their working endeavour on a year-to-year basis whether it be from oats, potatoes or milk. They do not take a long-term view of an investment of this nature and forestry is a long-term investment. Nevertheless, there are indications which show that they can get a return after about five years. The Department must, in those first five years, supplement the farmer's income to enable him to continue while the plantation is forming and get him to the stage where there would be a worth-while investment from it.

It has been proven that forestry is a suitable use for this available land. There are some indications that the return from State plantation in marginal land in areas which are not suitable for agricultural purposes can be something in the region of five, six, or maybe ten times greater than the return got from trying to eke out a living on that type of land by normal agricultural activities. From the point of view of forestry development, I do not think the Department, up to now, have been able to get the message across to the farming community and to the owners of these marginal areas of land that this is an investment which will pay them well in future years and of course pay the Government and State well also. There is a need for a revitalised, vigorous and ambitious new forestry policy. That kind of policy would make the country self-sufficient in its timber needs in a very short time. It would stimulate economic growth. It would make the optimum use of marginal land to distribute income more evenly throughout those areas. It would improve substantially our balance of payments. It would create wealth here. It would be the basis for further industrialisation. It would save us foreign exchange. It would earn us much needed foreign currency also. It would improve our tourism. It would improve our habitat and wildlife areas.

All of us would acknowledge the work that has been done in the Forestry and Wildlife Section in the preservation and development of amenities and wildlife. Many of us would wish that the Department could do more in the acquisition of habitats and places of important national value and European value. We feel there is a need for the Department to pay more attention in the future to the preservation of these habitats and areas which are suitable and indeed are unique in Europe now.

Another area which would be greatly enhanced by a vigorous land policy would be the whole area of forestry research. It would create many new jobs especially jobs for young technicians and people with scientific and other qualifications who are coming out of schools and colleges now and finding it very difficult to obtain employment opportunities. It would spread out the jobs into the areas where jobs are needed most. I think that is absolutely essential.

In relation to forestry, what we on this side of the House would see as important would be to embark on a vigorous new policy. This should be a policy which would revise upwards our planting targets, undertake private and State venture plantation schemes, expand our research and development areas, invest more money through industrial research and standards, promote more home grown timber and more home grown products, identify new product ranges that can be filled from our timber resources, embark on a very vigorous policy of substituting Irish timber for imports, expand our saw-milling sector. The policy should develop probably in the region of 2,000 to 3,000 additional jobs in this whole area of saw-milling and related activities through an enlightened and vigorous approach in that regard and establish a new marketing agency with the possibility of having a commercially orientated organisation which would exploit to the fullest possible extent by way of jobs and revenue from the State the timber and wood industry. We should not lose sight at any time of the need to preserve our wildlife habitat and to designate further nature reserves and to continue on with the magnificent work which has been done by the Forestry and Wildlife Service in this whole area. Overall we are seeing here two Departments working at half capacity. They are capable of doing an enormous amount of work. They have done tremendous work in the past but they are restricted hopelessly and totally through a lack of the necessary finances which would enable them to do the job which they have to do. They can do it if they get the money to do it. We cannot expect to get the kind of results that we would all expect from these two Departments unless we are prepared to make the investment that is needed. I would support the Minister in the efforts he is making to bring it home to his colleagues in the Government that they cannot continue to make the idealistic speeches that I mentioned at the very outset about the possibilities of creating employment opportunities and developing our national and natural resources unless we are prepared to make the type of investment that needs to be made to carry that through.

I want to say a few brief words in relation to this Department, this Estimate and my constituents. I do not believe that the Department of Fisheries and Forestry should be confined to considering fisheries in a marine sense, fisheries in the seas only or in large inland fisheries. I do not believe that they should be confined to considering forestry on such a large scale, mountain forestry or whatever. There is a large area within my constituency which would benefit greatly by one or two small approaches and efforts by the Department perhaps in conjunction with the local authority.

I represent a constituency of 120,000 people. It reaches to the foot of the mountains and it reaches to Merchant's Quay a half mile or so from the opening to Dublin Bay. I do not have a very large forestry or marine area in my constituency. Nonetheless, I think that this Department have great relevance to my constituency and I would like to suggest one or two things to the Minister.

First, with regard to the whole question of tree planting, the Minister will be aware that the local authorities, particularly Dublin Corporation through the schools have been encouraging a tree-planting programme very successfully. The children are taught to identify different types of trees and how they mature and various aspects of horticultural life attached to tree growth. They are also taught to appreciate trees and to appreciate the environment generally. Dublin Corporation's tree planting programme on roadsides and within parks has been very successful. Whereas in the initial stages it was highly vandalised and tree planting did not survive very well, now large numbers of trees are surviving and in fact the majority of trees planted are surviving. This I put down largely to the attempts made by Dublin Corporation to get schools and school-children involved in tree planting. I would hope that the Minister would consider that there is a role for his Department in encouraging all local authorities to expand their role in getting school-children in particular but even retired people, many of whom have very little to do except to walk in the park in the afternoon and in the early evenings, involved through the local authorities in appreciation of trees and horticulture through tree planting and tree identification.

I believe there is a very important role here for the Department of Fisheries and Forestry. This should not be left only to the Department of the Environment which is an enormous Department and which has so many other priorities, roads and traffic and areas like that. I really believe that the Department of Forestry has a contribution to make in that area. Dublin Corporation's successful tree planting programme has improved the environment greatly, and I think this Department has a role to play there.

In regard to horticultural services generally, within the county committees of agriculture there is very good horticultural advice available and that applies to the county of Dublin. Any resident in the county of Dublin who for instance wants to plant a tree in the garden or has a problem with a tree growing in the garden or shrubbery or whatever it happens to be has the benefit of the advice of the horticultural staff of the committee of agriculture. They can be called in and asked for their advice on things like this. Within the city of Dublin that service is not available. We have the general problem of the environment in the city which is being dealt with successfully by Dublin Corporation. In regard to this one specific area of horticulture, trees, I would ask the Minister — perhaps his officials when he goes back might present him with a little memo on this — to consider the role that his Department might have in improving the general appreciation and environment of life just in this area of tree planting and horticultural services.

I want to say a brief word about stocking of fish, again in so far as it relates to my constituency. I happen to have a particular interest in fishing. I remember from my days as youth leader before I came into politics that one of the sections of the youth club for which I happened to have responsibility for was fishing. This had great interest for people in urban areas. You could take people away to Blessington Lake or off to Lough Melvin in north Leitrim or off to Lough Sheelin and take them out for a day or a week-end fishing. For many people that interest in fishing has been a great character-builder and has given people the opportunity to meet people from other walks of life and to appreciate an aspect of life which they normally would not have the opportunity to appreciate. Many of those people when they come back want to continue to practise their fishing, to develop an interest in fishing and an appreciation of fishing in the environment. Where are the waterways that are available to them? There is the Liffey, but that requires a licence if you go beyond the polluted sections. There are other waterways. There is, for instance, the River Camac which is polluted very badly from Clondalkin right into the Liffey and in fact is a contributory source polluting the Liffey. At the rere of Clondalkin Paper Mills there is a trout river and the plan is that that river will be cleaned up and will be depolluted at least physically in any event. I would hope that the Minister would consider that his Department would have a role to play in ensuring that rivers, particularly within large cities, are depolluted and that they are subsequently stocked with fish. Our young people in this enormous city — at least enormous in proportion to the size of our population and indeed enormous in proportion to most European cities — should have an opportunity to appreciate fishing and fish life.

There is a great opportunity for us together with the various fishing boards and the local authorities, to encourage the complete stocking of the Grand Canal and of the Royal Canal. The Grand Canal stretches for quite some distance within my own constituency. On a summer's evening you see many young children and adults trying to fish in the Grand Canal, but there is very little fish life there. There has been an attempt made to stock it with fish. I would encourage the Minister to consider just this area — the Grand Canal, first, and the Royal Canal — just those two canals which stretch right through the heart of inner Dublin from Ringsend through a variety of housing estates where there are very few leisure facilities. Fishing could make a simple contribution, not just as a leisure-time activity but also as a boost to the general appreciation of the environment, which will have a benefit for us all because the people will appreciate the importance that fishing and forestry have for our economy if they can see it at a local level. I would urge the Minister to accept that suggestion and to let his Department assume responsibility for co-ordinating this project. Do not just leave it to the local authorities, to the Department of the Environment to the Department of Communications or to the Department of Public Works — all of whom have some responsibility, for instance, for canals. It needs somebody to take specific responsibility for it. I have almost finished my contribution; I just wanted to make those two suggestions. I would implore the Minister to consider that his Department has primary responsibility to co-ordinate, to develop and to promote the appreciation of trees and fishing and the development of trees and fishing in what could be a very inexpensive way. He could thus perform a good task for his Department and for his brief on fishing and forestry generally. To that end, I hope the Minister will consider within his Department assigning an officer to be responsible for urban fishery and forestry who would be in regular contact with the community and environment departments of local authorities and in particular the larger local authorities like Dublin Corporation and Dublin County Council. I would ask the Minister to appoint somebody specifically in his Department as an urban fisheries and forestry officer to co-ordinate, to promote and to develop the two areas that I suggested to him today, through the local authorities, the Department of Communications and the Office of Public Works. It needs somebody centrally to co-ordinate the work to promote the suggestions I have made.

The Minister's Department can be of vital importance in promoting the enormous potential of the tourism industry. When we talk about forestry and fisheries we seem to think all the time on the grand scale; we are talking about fishermen and their living. That, of course is important and particularly so to the Deputies who represent marine constitutencies. Could I just say one thing to the Minister? Coarse fishing is frowned on by inland fisherman in this country; they look down their noses on it; they are not interested in fishing for pike. It is a lowly thing in the eyes of some anglers to fish for pike. For people in Germany and on the Continent generally, they are very much into pike fishing and in many cases more so than they are into salmon fishing or trout fishing. We have lakes full of pike and I would hope that the Minister might consider, in conjunction with the Minister of State responsible for Tourism, the promotion of inland pike fishing here, promote it particularly in areas like Germany and continental countries where there is a specific interest in that aspect of coarse fishing. They are very devoted to pike fishing and any Germans who have come here are very taken by the quality and quantity of pike. They are also amused at the Irish attitude with the exception of a small number of anglers towards pike, throwing them back, not wanting to catch them.

I would ask the Minister to consider if his Department in conjunction with the Department of Tourism have a role to play in promoting this in countries such as Germany. I hope that he will consider that there is room within his Department for innovation. It is not for ever that parties are in Government. We are in Government now for nearly two years and presumably we will be there for another three years. I think it is important that every Government in their turn should look back and say, "When we were in Government we did that. We went into Government because we wanted to change some things and we left our mark." Within the Department of Fisheries and Forestry there is more potential for doing that than there is within many other Departments. It need not be very costly and it can be done in areas where a very large number of people can be reached and a very large number of people can appreciate it. I recommend those suggestions to the Minister. I hope he will find it possible to consider them.

At the outset, I should like to refer to the fact that the Minister said that the moneys available for the Department of Fisheries this year was 6 per cent on last year's outturn. That is very true but it is more important to refer to the fact that the Estimate this year is down on the Estimate for 1983. So 1984 is a reduction on 1983 on the Estimate and if the outturn last year is any indication of what the outturn this year is going to be, we are going to have less and less money spent in this vitally important Department where there is tremendous potential. If we are to overcome the problems of unemployment, particularly along the western and south-western seaboards, then it is only through a greater input into fisheries and a greater amount of money being made available to this Department that the problem can be resolved.

Deputy Daly referred to other Ministers who at times referred to the potential that is in fisheries and forestry but unfortunately when the Minister for Fisheries and Forestry requires money he is on his own and he does not have the support of the other members of the Cabinet and instead of increasing the Estimate for Fisheries and Forestry they have reduced it drastically this year. The future of the industry is based on the quotas which are available to us. We were told at the beginning of this year when the various quotas were made known to us that there was an increase in a number if not all of them. I accept the fact there was an increase in mackerel and herrings but the impression was given to us by the Minister that we were obtaining an increase in quotas which the other Governments were not getting. The fact is that the quota which we have from the total allowable catch for all of the species is exactly the same quota as was available in the previous year, the same percentage of the total allowable catch. I refer in particular to mackerel when we had 80,000 tonnes in 1983, increased to 85,300 tonnes in 1984. As an actual fact while our quota was increasing all of the quotas within the EEC were increasing as well, our share being 21.3 per cent of the overall total allowable catch.

Mackerel is causing great concern to the industry at the moment and no doubt to the Minister and his officials in the Department. It is now approaching the end of June and we see ahead of us the commencement of the next mackerel season and all of the cold stores in Donegal and many of the public cold stores in Dublin at present are full of mackerel. It is particularly worrying for the industry and for all of us who are anxious to see this problem resolved. I can appreciate that the Minister has no magic wand that he can wave and that he also would like to see this problem resolved immediately. If it is not, then I shudder to think of the repercussions from the fact that we might not be able to sell these mackerel; and if we sell them, then they must be sold on to other markets at a much-reduced price and consequently at a serious loss to the producers. If they are to continue in business then they obviously must pay a lower price for the fish next year and as a result the fishermen are at a great loss also.

On 4 April last I got a cynical remark when I suggested to the Minister that he should go to Nigeria to try to resolve this problem. I believe sincerely that the Minister must go urgently to Nigeria and try to work out an agreement whereby this problem can be resolved. I cast no aspersions on any officials who have been sent to Nigeria at the request of the Minister to try to resolve the difficulties but I believe the only one who can carry enough weight to resolve this problem is the Minister. I again propose to him that even at this late hour he should go there and try to have the problems resolved. It is true that these fish can be sold in other markets but if they go on to the European market then they will obtain only the floor price which is there. The Minister is aware I am sure that if we are to sell to Egypt where there is a demand for them they will only accept mackerel within 60 days from the date on which they are caught. Egypt is not a market which can be used for this stockpile in cold stores at the moment.

The herring market is also a problem but I understood from the Minister of State that soon after 4 July he would visit the Eastern bloc countries to try to obtain mackerel and herring markets. Hopefully we will hear from the Minister at the end of the debate whether this is being done, or we will be told at a later stage if the Minister has been there and if so what are the results of his visit.

White fish is causing serious problems at present. The problem of continuity of white fish has been one which has been with us for some time. As a result of this it is difficult for processors to get more deeply involved than they are in the white fish market while the raw material is not available to them. I believe there is a solution which will solve two problems; it will solve the problem of continuity of white fish and it will also solve the problem which I believe is the most serious at the moment, that is the fishing vessels in the 60ft. to 90ft. range. These boats are experiencing severe difficulties at the moment because the traditional type of fish which they land, herrings, particularly off the west coast, is not available to them as of now. Even if they were available to them the market is not available. Consequently, they find themselves in serious trouble. There is money available from FEOGA for the refurbishing and conversion of such boats. If this money was made available by the Government and by the EEC, all skippers of fishing boats in the 60ft to 90ft. range would take advantage of the national and FEOGA grants.

I note that the grants which are available from FEOGA for this type of modernisation or conversion work is a maximum of £14,500. I contend that this would not be sufficient. The Government would have to make up the shortfall to ensure that fishermen could be attracted to refurbishing their vessels. They owe BIM a considerable amount of money at present, but 99 per cent of those honourable fishermen are not in a position to meet their repayments to BIM because they are not landing any significant quantity of fish. They are barely able to pay their overheads which must be paid: their fuel costs, their insurance and the maintenance necessary to ensure that the boat is kept in a reasonable condition. I propose to the Minister that moneys should be made available for the conversion and refurbishing of these boats.

If we go back a few years we can establish the reason for having so many of these boats. During the late stages of negotiations in relation to the Common Fisheries Policy it was necessary then to try to ensure that we had the maximum landings here and BIM and the Department of Fisheries felt the necessity to increase the investment in fishing boats and thereby increase the landings which would give us a much larger percentage of the total allowable catch. But then it was seen that we had gone a little bit too far, that boats were being made available too easily at that time, that there was not sufficient fish available to ensure that fishermen and skippers could meet their repayments. It was necessary then when negotiations were almost completed to put the brakes on and ensure that no further investment would be made in this size of boat. It is not too late as yet.

The Minister will learn from BIM and his officials in the Department that this problem can be overcome now that there is no money necessary for investment in new boats. If there is any money available it would be very little because the industry has lost confidence for a number of reasons. Moneys that would be available at other times for new boats should now be made available for the refurbishing of secondhand boats together with the aid which could be forthcoming from BIM. First of all, before we do this we must try to ensure that confidence is instilled into the fishermen. We cannot continue to repossess boats from fishermen who are in difficulties. The practice now is that if they are repossessed, they are sold off to someone else — to people, I would say with due respect, who would not have the same expertise. At the end of the day those debts will have to be written off. In theory, BIM and the Department can follow individual skippers to obtain repayments but in practice it does not happen because the money is not available.

We should have a new look at the whole situation in relation to repayments and try to ensure that fishermen who have expertise in the industry should be retained. We should try to work out a system whereby arrears of repayments could be brought forward and spread over a much longer period. Then the fishermen would start anew, could make their repayments, providing that the boats which they are using could be refurbished.

In the short term we must seriously consider some form of fuel subsidy. The country at large benefited earlier this year when there was a reduction of 9p on petrol. Unfortunately, this was not passed on in relation to diesel for fishermen. A reduction such as this would certainly help fishermen in the short-term. We must also ensure that there is a much greater investment in market research. As was pointed out by the Minister of State or the Minister in the debate some weeks ago, a moneys committee was investigating this. I look forward to the outcome of research which is being done both in the country and outside. I should add that the research which is being done within the country will certainly help, but it will not in the short term help us to overcome the serious problems we have. It is important to look at the reality of the situation. I welcome the Minister's visit to Japan and note that there is potential that a number of business people from Japan are coming to the country. But, by the same token, I am correct in assuming that they would be interested in a processed product rather than in the type of product we have available at the moment. The nearest thing we would have at present would be something in the herring roe and smoked salmon line.

The question of mackerel, as we would like to sell them at the moment in a frozen state, is a number of years hence, hopefully when we will be in a position to smoke our own mackerel, to can them. As far as canning is concerned there is a very viable business being carried on in my own constituency at the moment where smoking and canning of mackerel and herring is taking place. As in all industries, I would expect that this company could have difficulties at the outset in trying to get off the ground. But it has been proven and I hope that within the not-too-distant future the lines in this particular factory can be expanded in order that more unemployed people in west Donegal can be employed there.

There is tremendous potential for this. If we are to provide processed fish for places as far away as Japan, then it must be a product that is well up the added-value scale. As I said at the outset, a big problem in relation to white fish is the continuity of supply. I expect that if 60 ft. to 100 ft. boats were available for the landings of these fish it would be necessary also to ensure that these boats would explore other areas than the areas that have been fished already. They would be much bigger than the boats which are using the grounds off the coast. We should insist that these boats would go further off. But prior to that we should make more moneys available for research of the fishing grounds. That could be done in the meantime and at a later stage, when the boats are ready to fish and they know precisely where these fish are. There is an opportunity out there for us by way of blue whiting. If we could establish precisely where they are then these other boats should be in a position to fish them. If they land these fish then I foresee a very serious problem as no market research has been done in relation to blue whiting.

I respectfully suggest to the Minister that we embark immediately on this course; that moneys are made available for the conversion and refurbishing of these boats and that the research of the grounds is carried out immediately. As I have stated, market research is of vital importance. We saw where a short time after landings of mackerel in bulk commenced that it was necessary to send a considerable quantity of these mackerel to the fishmeal plant in Killybegs and to the Mornington plant which was closed some years ago. Over the years the processors, in conjunction with BIM, secured various markets abroad and now very few of these mackerel are being processed for fishmeal. I do not want to go back over the ground that we will have plenty of mackerel for fishmeal if the Nigerian problem is not resolved at the earliest possible date.

The Minister mentioned harbour development. I must say I was disappointed that the only money made available to Donegal, where indeed we have the highest rate of unemployment — it is something in the region of 27 per cent in County Donegal — and the majority of those people are under 24 years of age, was to complete Portevlin pier and a small grant made available to Donegal County Council to repair the fendering at Rathmullan. I had hoped that Donegal would receive a fair and equitable amount this year, particularly for Burtonport. I was disappointed to learn even before this, that the Minister had advised the people of Burtonport some few days ago that no moneys would be available there this year and that the position would be reviewed during 1985. I am realistic to know that if the moneys are not there and if the Minister has not made them available — I do not intend playing politics —I would plead with the Minister to have a serious look at this problem in Burtonport and hopefully he will make moneys available during 1985.

All that is necessary is to make available 50 per cent of the money as I understand 50 per cent of the overall cost would be forthcoming from Roinn na Gaeltachta as well. As I said before, the Minister has no excuse and he cannot pass the buck in this one. He finds himself in a very difficult situation when he says, "Twist the arm of the Minister for the Gaeltacht". He is in the position that he is the Minister in charge of both Departments and hopefully during 1985 he will ensure that Burtonport will get its fair share.

This morning I was on a deputation meeting with Commissioner Burke in relation to various problems in Donegal and one of those was the harbour at Greencastle. We tried to present the picture to the Minister of the serious difficulties which Greencastle has at the moment. In addition to Burtonport I would ask the Minister to consider Greencastle as I had thought from the Adjournment debate one night that moneys would have been made available this year.

Over the last few weeks the salmon fishermen are experiencing very serious problems. At the moment the livelihood of our fishermen is being taken from them. They are fishing as they have been over the last number of years and, indeed, decades and this is a traditional right which they have had. No organisation, or industry is trying more to improve their methods by becoming more efficient. The fishermen are now using a type of net which can be used during the day. Prior to this, the netting which was used could only be used during the night. I think there was only one good reason for it and that is if lives can be saved. Over the years too many lives have been lost off our coast as a result of night fishing. These fishermen, who are fishing for salmon are fishing with small boats from 30 to 45-foot; the maximum size is a 50-foot boat. The fishermen can, if allowed to fish during the day, thus reduce the number of accidents which no doubt would occur if they fished during the night.

The west coast is becoming extremely busy. It is inevitable that accidents will occur. Those large boats do not go out by the nets; they go through them and cut their nets and the fishermen lose as a result of this. I am of the opinion that the Minister is a realist and he fully appreciates the difficulties that these fishermen are experiencing. I appreciate the fact that conservation is very necessary. This is a very important fishery. It is a renewable resource. We must ensure that fish are there for years to come. The fishermen also realise that because they are the people who would suffer as a result of this. Their families would suffer and their families' families would suffer. The fishermen are prepared to make sacrifices and to compromise. They have stated time and time again that they will adhere rigidly to a five-day week. This is something to which the fishermen did not adhere in the past.

Not even last Sunday.

The Minister should agree to it, even on a short-term basis. This is the only type of netting available to them at the moment, as people will not stock other types anymore. This is the same type of netting that the Government are quite happy to take the 23 per cent VAT from. The Government then tell us that they are going to introduce an order which will allow them to use the netting for other species. On 14 June the order appeared in the newspaper telling us that our fishermen cannot go outside 12 miles to fish salmon. The order did not appear yet as to where the monofilament can be used to fish the other species. The Minister stated that he will introduce it within a week or two. I would respectfully suggest that he might introduce it at the earliest possible date.

Let me refer to the order made by the Minister on 14 June, in respect of EEC Directive No. 82/86, on the convention for the conservation of salmon on the North Atlantic Ocean. Our salmon boats, particularly off the south-west coast of Donegal, if we take our base lines on the west coast, can go much further out than from the base lines on the south-west coast of the county. Take the fishermen from Arran Mor Island who had to go much further out to catch fish in the past; now if they go outside the 12-mile limit, they cannot fish at all. Not alone can our protection crews go aboard but we have the serious situation where the British crews can do so. I believe some of them are in the area already. I understand that some moves were made by the British Government to ensure that this order would be signed. The report states in The Irish Times of Thursday, 14 June that “the British Government is frequently complaining that Irish boats operating the 12-mile limit were able to intercept fish heading for Scottish, English and Northern Ireland rivers”. I wonder whose interests should we be looking after. Should it be the interests of the people within the United Kingdom or of the people within our own small country.

Fishermen and their families who are depending on salmon for a living have used this traditional type of fishing for many decades. We talk about historic rights when considering agreements within Europe. I would plead with the Minister to appreciate the fact that the end of the season comes traditionally about the middle of July and very little fish has been landed in Donegal. If there were any job opportunities available in Britain I have no doubt that the Derry boat would be in operation again. All of those fishermen who came back from Scotland, England and America to build their homes on the west coast of Donegal, on Arran Mór, Inish Boffin and Tory Islands now find themselves in a very difficult situation. It is even more difficult in so far as they obtained loans from BIM for their boats and gear and will be unable to repay those loans. I contend that the weather can ensure that conservation takes place. Over the last number of days the weather was so calm that the nets would not drift. It is pointless going out on those days. Today there are storms off the west coast, so the boats cannot go out. The weather almost takes care of the conservation measures which are necessary. Despite what the Minister may have heard I do not doubt his word but I am quite certain that 99.9 per cent of those fishermen would be happy to fish over the five days in the week and, irrespective of weather conditions, would adhere to the regulations in relation to Saturday and Sunday. Before I conclude on salmon I should like to say that we must take the other theory that if all the salmon go up the river, there will be very few salmon coming down next year. When salmon go up to spawn they need the bed of the river but if too many go up it is like planting potatoes on top of one another and at the end of the next season we have nothing. It may sound farcical but we cannot take so many salmon out each year and ensure that the fishery is sustained.

I appreciate the Minister's anxiety about the future. The Minister should also appreciate my anxiety about the present. I can assure you, as can the fishermen who presented their proposal to the Minister earlier this year that they are extremely interested in the new regulations. I hope the Minister will introduce some in the short term and have a rethink about this in the long term and not listen to people who have fixed ideas about this and who are not prepared to change their attitude in any way.

The question of Spain's entry into the EEC is one which we must consider very seriously I note that the fishermen are worried about a statement made by the Minister for Foreign Affairs, Deputy Barry, when he said that Ireland would have to maintain a tough stance against the Spanish rights at least during the transition period. I hope that the Minister was wrongly quoted but if he was rightly quoted, then it is very serious that the Minister for Foreign Affairs is interested only in his own portfolio and not in the country at large. If Spain enters the EEC our own Minister for Fisheries must ensure that whatever deal is agreed will not interfere with our rights off the west coast. The Spanish fleet is much bigger than all of the fleets in the EEC and all of these boats are working off the west and north-west coasts of our country. The legislation introduced by the Minister in 1983 to ensure that they could not use the flag of convenience has helped. It is difficult to keep them out but if we allow them in they will have a right here and it is the Irish boats that will suffer as a result. As I said earlier the research and development of the grounds where the horse-mackerel and blue whiting might be is essential and some of the boats which are lying obsolete should be used to explore these grounds. It is not necessary to have them all converted immediately. Some could commence the conversion programme. Others could ensure that the research of the markets is carried out immediately in order that all of the fish would not go to the only fish meal plant in Killybegs.

Deputy Daly referred to training and technology. I had the opportunity of visiting the training school in Greencastle. It is an excellent school but more money is necessary to expand. Something which is also necessary is a boat which would be available at the harbour in Greencastle and which could be used to take these young men while training out to sea where they can operate with their instructors and tutors.

There are enough boats lying idle in the country and surely one of these could be made available to them. I would hope that the Minister would ensure that the incident which occurred at Rockall some weeks ago when the Salve Regina was ordered out of that area by the British naval authorities does not recur. Some of our boats are fishing in that area and doing extremely well. We cannot accept these directives coming from the British naval authorities; however, it could have been a misunderstanding. I would hope that the Minister for Foreign Affairs has let it be known to the British authorities our concern particularly in relation to the grounds around Rockall.

I would like to refer to the situation in Killybegs where there is a lack of facilities there at the moment for the maintenance of boats. When the Killybegs boatyard is being sold by the liquidator we must, if possible, have a condition inserted that this should only be sold to someone who is prepared to carry on the maintenance and building of boats. It is an excellent site I have no doubt that there are many processors who would be extremely anxious to obtain the freezing facilities that could be made available there. The boats could almost take the fish directly from that plant into the freezer ships. I ask the Minister to request that the liquidator to insist that anyone buying this would use it for that purpose; otherwise it would be necessary for the boats to go across to Girvan in Scotland for minor repairs which could be carried out at Killybegs.

Before I conclude on fishing I want to say a few words about forestry. I would ask the Minister to make every effort to ensure that the withdrawal of the £25 per ton mackerel subsidy might be re-introduced next year or this year particularly in view of the extenuating circumstances pertaining in the county at the moment in relation to mackerel. The Minister had hoped that money would be made available in some other form to this country. He was confident at the time. He was led to believe that but unfortunately this money was not made available. In view of the extenuating circumstances this year in relation to the mackerel and the serious problem in Nigeria this might be made available to the industry.

The Minister is coming in now.

I have no intention of putting any other Deputy out. In relation to forestry I welcome today's meeting between Dr. Eoin McKiernan, President of the Irish-American Cultural Institute, and the Minister at which Dr. McKiernan reached agreement with the Minister on an Irish-American collaboration product. I understand that the purpose of the project is to promote through sponsorship a tree planting programme in Ireland by North American donors. Without taking from the Minister this was initiated by the leader of my party in September-October of 1982.

Forestry, like fisheries, is an industry which depends on renewable resources. We can ensure that employment which is so urgently required throughout the country can be made available with greater input by the Department of Fisheries and Forestry, and with a greater expenditure by the Government on this Department. But within this Department or this industry there are many fears that the industry are not fully aware of the supply of timber which is available to them. In 1980 the IDA issued a report giving an indication to the industry of the timber that would be available over the years but this report was not very accurate and extremely misleading in so far as the industry is concerned. It did not give an accurate account of the volume of timber which would be available over the years to the industry and the industry now find themselves working to a capacity of 60 to 70 per cent while in fact they should be working to a capacity of 100 per cent. Last year was a very obvious example when the industry were advised early in the year that 700,000 cubic metres would be available to them. The industry based their projections on that and sold their timber accordingly and found at the end of the year that only 500,000 cubic metres came on stream, thus a shortfall of 200,000 cubic metres. I suggest to the Minister that every effort be made to ensure that very accurate figures on volumes of timber available are made available to the industry. In the not too distant future we will have to seriously consider the commercial viewpoint where forestry is concerned unless we have a drastic improvement in the near future. The tendering programme is completely unsatisfactory. It is so ridiculous that somebody in the south of Ireland through the tendering system could have to go to Donegal to collect their timber and somebody in Donegal or Sligo could have to go to the south of Ireland to obtain their supplies which would be exactly similar. Something is terribly wrong when situations like these arise and it should be considered and resolved as qucikly as possible by the Department.

The Minister pointed out that there is an 85 per cent grant available for people in western counties for tree planting. We here know it but the public at large are not fully aware of it. Over the next number of weeks the Minister might have his officials consider what could be done in order to make this information available to the people who have the sort of land which is between forestry and agriculture. They would certainly be interested because an 85 per cent grant is one which would entice many people to plant and in the long term it would ensure that there would be a future for the sawmilling industry. I think it is a fact that over the next number of years the EEC will have to import quite a substantial amount of their timber and I understand also that we have the best climatic conditions for growing timber. Therefore, we should ensure that as much money as possible is made available and that we embark on a tree planting programme, even though it may be 30 years hence when a lot of these come on stream. If we are interested in conservation and other aspects we should also be interested in ensuring that timber will be made available. This can only be done by a commitment from the Government and a commitment from the Department of Forestry to carry out this tree planting programme which I have referred to.

That concludes my remarks in relation to fisheries and forestry. I would appeal to the Minister to have another look at the salmon situation and to realise and appreciate that the people whom I represent in west Donegal find themselves in the situation that if jobs become available and if there is an upturn in the UK, as we are told, all of those people will return to the UK. Many houses will close down. I am sure no Minister or no Government wants to be responsible for this situation. We have two weeks to 17 days left. I would ask the Minister to accept that the fishermen would adhere to a definite five day week and I wish to ask him to permit them to continue their fishing activities. After that, that gives us 12 months to get our house in order for next year. I am glad to note that not only am I echoing my own remarks in relation to salmon and monofilament but that I am also echoing the remarks of backbenchers in the Minister's own party. Not alone would the Minister be appeasing me but he would also be appeasing the Members of his own party.

I regret that I was unable to be present during the Minister's Estimate speech due to the fact that together with the other Donegal Deputies we had a meeting with the EEC Commissioner, Mr. Burke. One of the matters we discussed at that meeting was the enormous natural resource we have in the west, and particularly off the Donegal coast, in the rich fishing grounds we have there. Indeed, if we can properly exploit them what a great advantage that would be to the west and to Donegal. At the moment in Donegal we have the highest unemployment rate in the country. It is in excess of 26 or 27 per cent whereas the national average would be 12 or 13 per cent. There is a great potential in the west if we develop the fishing industry, especially onshore fishing by establishing processing industries. In that way much extra employment can be created.

A figure which has been quoted in this House and elsewhere is that in this country at the moment the ratio between those engaged on sea and on land in the fishing industry is on a one to one basis whereas in some of the continental countries such as Denmark the ratio is one to seven or one to eight. Bearing these figures in mind we know what a great potential there is there. I would hope that in the next few years every effort will be made not alone to help the fishing fleet but also to establish these processing plants onshore to provide much-needed employment in the west particularly in Donegal. We did discuss it with the EEC Commissioner today and his reaction was very favourable and he recognised the potential there is there also.

As I said, I was not present for the Minister's speech but I think it is fairly common knowledge now that the fishing industry at the moment is in a fairly serious state, not of the Minister's making, not of the Government's making, but due to an accumulation of difficulties over the years. We have costs escalating and the price of the produce at a standstill. Very often the price the fishermen get for their produce now is lower than what is was a number of years ago. The major cost factor is the significant increase in the price of fuel in the last few years. I understand that the cost of fuel to Irish fishermen is much higher and much greater than it is to fishermen in other EEC countries. I understand that in some of the countries there is some sort of subsidy available to the fishermen there. I do not know whether or not it contravenes EEC regulations but perhaps some consideration should be given to this question. Perhaps the idea of a VAT rebate to fishermen should be considered. I remember two or three months ago when we had an opportunity of debating fisheries in this House before the major oil companies in the country had reduced the price of petrol the previous day by anything up to 10p a gallon. I remember remarking at that time that the price of diesel was not reduced. I was glad to see in the last few days that the price of diesel has been reduced by 2p or 3p a gallon. I hope that this will be passed on to the fishermen and that it might give them some marginal relief.

In regard to mackerel, we are experiencing difficulties on the Nigerian market where I understand the issue of licences has not so far materialised. When the political situation changed there last year I was in contact with the Minister for Fisheries and Forestry and, indeed, the Minister for Foreign Affairs. On that occasion I expressed my anxiety that any change of Government or policy in Nigeria would affect the fishing industry and the exporters in this country. I know that both Ministers have been monitoring the situation very carefully. So far I understand the licences have not been issued and that all storage facilities in this country are choc-a-bloc. I am sure the Minister is giving this matter his attention. I hope some arrangement can be arrived at shortly so that we can get rid of these stocks which are costing a lot of money to store for the last six months. The Minister visited Japan recently to extensively promote our fish exports. I understand the reaction to his visit was very favourable and I hope we will be able to exploit the Japanese market further in years to come. They import billions of fish every year and I hope they will find our products to their liking.

Deputy Gallagher mentioned harbour facilities in Donegal. We have the foremost fishing port in Ireland at Killybegs which is in need of further development. For some time they have been requesting the facility of a synchro lift and I hope something can be done in that respect before the end of the year. The third most important port in Donegal is Burtonport which is near my own area. For a number of years they have been requesting to have it dredged and to have the pier extended. A promise was given in 1980 during an election campaign that it would be seriously considered. I would hope that, if not this year, then next year that serious consideration should be given to the dredging of this harbour to facilitate a significant number of boats from that port. Burtonport is one of the ports in Donegal depending on salmon fishing.

Last year we had difficulties during the salmon fishing season. I compliment the Minister on the number of meetings he has had with salmon fishermen since that time. They had two or three meetings in Dublin, where they discussed the difficulties and the problems. A fortnight ago the Minister visited Donegal and had a further meeting with about 30 salmon fishermen and I am sure he found them, as I did, to be reasonable men who were concerned with this season and seasons to come and who are interested in conservation. Had their fathers and grandfathers not been interested in conservation they would not have the livelihood of the salmon fishing they have at the moment, and they are concerned for their own children. We had a constructive meeting that evening. The Minister understands the case the salmon fishermen put to him and that they understand the Minister's decision. From the feedback I am getting compared to last year the salmon catches in Burtonport, Bunbeg, and all around the north west are drastically down on last year's by about 75 per cent to date. The Burtonport Fishermen's Co-Operative would have four or five extra people employed during the season. They have not got them employed this year due to the small number of salmon. I do not know what the reason is. Perhaps the salmon are running late but I would hope that this year they would have an opportunity of earning their livelihood. Entire families are depending on this.

The complex question of monofilament arises. I have been advocating that it should be examined seriously because it is a more efficient and safer method of fishing. It enables the fishermen to fish during the day instead of at night. If the Minister and the Department would see their way to legalise it, I would also advocate that there would be very strict controls on the length of gear and on the number of days fishing during the week. The fishermen realise this and they have made that point in their submission to the Minister. I hope that when this season is over there will be further opportunities and that we will resolve this problem to everybody's satisfaction before next year's season.

Another grievance the fishermen have brought to my attention and to other Deputies' attention is the introduction of a 12-mile limit. The salmon fishermen are not allowed to go outside the 12-mile limit. This regulation applies to salmon fishermen not alone in Ireland but in all other countries — Canada and Iceland. It might not suit us 100 per cent here but if the rule is applied in every other country, especially in Canada and Iceland, if they are not allowed to go outside the 12 mile and if they abide by that regulation it will give the salmon an opportunity of returning to the Irish coast. Of all the natural resources we have in the west, fishing has a great potential and is the one that needs to be developed.

Many people who have fishing boats through BIM have difficulties with their repayments. The repayment for anyone who bought a boat ten years ago would be comparatively low compared to people who have purchased their boats in the past few years. It is on record and it has been said before that almost 80 per cent are finding it impossible to meet their repayments. Many skippers are worried because they do not know what the future holds. We could renegotiate the loans or extend the period of repayment. It needs to be looked at seriously.

The industry is important. We now have a Common Fisheries Policy under the EEC. What I would like to see is a national fisheries policy where fishermen, the processors, the exporters, the buyers and the Minister could sit down and work out a national policy and see how we can gain most out of this valuable resource.

I would like to refer very briefly to the forestly aspect of the Minister's responsibility and point out that our climate is very favourable towards the growing of trees but in spite of all that we have the lowest percentage of our territory under trees, lower than any other country in Europe with the exception of Iceand. We will have to adopt a vigorous policy of afforestation. This would be of benefit in the west where we have vast tracts of land in my own county and in other western counties that would be suitable for very little else besides growing trees. It is an investment for the future. I hope we will be able to initiate such a policy in the years ahead.

The Minister is in charge of these two Departments at a very difficult time when the fishing industry is going through a crisis because of external factors not of our making. We are left to try and solve them as best we can. The potential is there and I hope the Government will be able to get us out of the difficulties we are in. It will be to the benefit of the entire economy of the country, not alone that of the west and Donegal.

I welcome the opportunity to debate the Fisheries estimate. In the opening line of the Minister's speech, he asks that a sum not exceeding £17,476,000 be granted. In the opening line of the Minister's speech on the Fisheries Estimate 1983 the figure was £18,752,000. I am disappointed. Reference was made to the out-turn later on in his speech. I do not accept that he was unable to spend the money given to him by the Government. On reading through the two scripts I find that on page 7 of this year's Estimate speech the wording is more or less the same in relation to one particular item: "... the scheme at Kilcummin and Killala are expected to be completed this year." The very same line was in the script last year. Is that going to appear in the script again next year? Reading through the two scripts one can see very many parallels, so it appears that not alone are the Government and the Department of Fisheries and Forestry running out of money but they are also very short on vocabulary. In the last page the Minister says he is prepared to answer any questions we might have and I certainly have a few to ask.

On page ten of the present issue of the IFO News it says that in relation to a meeting held on 8 May the Minister said he was trying, realising the problems, to impress on people who could and should help to give him the kind of resources he needed. Obviously he did not succeed so apparently the Minister is a lightweight, and prepared to admit it, in his own Government. This is a disappointment.

(Interruptions.)

The Minister will have an opportunity of replying to me and we will be delighted to hear his comments. We hope to hear that he will show some sort of initiative because as far as I see there is little or no initiative coming from his Department and he, as Minister, should be showing that initiative. The Minister should be out there in front and not be dictated to by anyone. He is certainly not doing this and the amount of the Estimate for this year in comparison to what we had last year clearly demonstrates that.

I would like to speak now in relation to what Deputy McGinley said. Unfortunately he has left the House. We all know that the use of monofilament netting is a bone of contention and has been for some time. Deputy McGinley is on record as having said that he favours the use of monofilament netting and today he also said that he has asked the Government to have a serious look at this. I felt that this was a dilution of previous statements made by him. I would like the Minister to comment on the erratic stance by his own backbenchers on this matter. I would like to know clearly what the Government view is.

I am in full agreement with the IFO editorial comment in this month's issue, and I read from it:

It is clear that neither the Minister nor his senior advisers have any appreciation of the magnitude of the problems facing the fishing industry or of the potential which exists if the industry is properly handled.

Indeed, Deputy McGinley subscribed to that view by quoting figures of having a one-to-one situation here, one on the sea, one on the shore, whereas in other European countries the ratio is as much as one to seven. Their main consideration appears to be to ensure that nothing happens which is outside departmental control or which might upset the status quo. This is precisely what I am saying about initiative, that the potential is there and I am fairly confident that the Minister is aware of this. He has been told it often enough but there does not seem to be anything happening. No serious attempt has been made to come to grips with the realities of the fishing industry. It is also clear that no serious effort has been made to come to grips with the requirements of the industry despite the fact that this is the fifth continuous year of depression. We are not even availing of the EEC finance under the terms of the Common Fisheries Policy. We have no programme prepared to avail of the Common Fisheries Policy funds despite the fact that a year-and-a-half after the initial three-year period has already gone. For example, we have no national scheme for the temporary or permanent cessation of vessels, no scheme for exploratory fishing and so on. When the Common Fisheries Policy documents were signed the catch phrase was “development”. What development has taken place since? In my opinion and in the opinion of the IFO absolutely none. What is the official solution to the fishermen who find themselves in financial arrears? The answer is to force the fishermen concerned to contribute 25 per cent of their gross catch towards repayment when it is clear that all such terms are impossible to comply with if boats are to stay in business. That is exactly the situation. Do you want to see the boats tied up, do you want to see the boats for sale and nobody using them? Is that the Minister's policy? I would like a clear statement on this matter.

Public relations activity is certainly no substitute for performance and this through the Chair, appears to be very definitely the line taken by the Government. If a stone falls out of the pier, sometimes it is replaced and there is almost an unveiling ceremony with photographers there to say that a great job is being done and here is development. That kind of thing does not con people any more. The least the industry expects from the Minister is a glimmer of leadership and courage. If he is unable or unwilling to meet these requirements, then he should resign. I repeat that we expect initiative from the Minister and from his junior Minister, and there is absolutely no sign of initative whatsoever.

In relation to harbours, I would have to say that reading through the Minister's speech I was very saddened to note that no mention was made of Wexford, and even after last Sunday you would expect them to be given some pride of place, but no. We have a junior Minister from that county for Fisheries and Forestry and unfortunately he is missing today in this, what I would have assumed would be, the most important debate on fisheries and forestry for the year. As a representative of the people in my area who are fishermen, I believe the place to be today is here in Dáil Éireann to represent them where they can be best represented. I would like to refer to Kilmore Harbour and to quote from the Minister. I asked this question of the Minister of State before in a debate here on 4th April 1984. He says that I had referred to Kilmore Harbour. There is a very accurate report of that in this month's issue of the IFO News.

The Minister claimed that he had been to the pier and as a result had made something like £50,000 available to complete work that was started there. The work that was started was started in Fianna Fáil's time. What he was providing for was a continuation of the work which was absolutely necessary. The work was done. As far as that is concerned, Kilmore Harbour is relatively safe. What he failed to say was that he had promised very recently also that the harbour would be dredged. To date I do not know that the harbour will be dredged. I am asking the Minister here this evening, knowing that he has already promised in his statement today that he will answer the question as to when Kilmore Harbour will be dredged. Kilmore Harbour is one of the biggest harbours in the country, certainly not the best, but probably the best fishermen come from there. I am asking directly this evening when it is proposed to dredge Kilmore Harbour. There are 400 people involved in the industry there whether it be fishing or on shore. They deserve the attention that I am asking for here this evening. I would also like to know if there are plans to upgrade Kilmore Quay fishing harbour. The amount of money that is made available to it is very small and for the numbers of boats using it, it is completely inadequate.

I would like to make a brief reference to Duncannon Harbour and ask the Minister here in the absence of the junior Minister, when it is proposed to provide that £1.5 million that he promised to the Duncannon fishermen and when development, as a result of this allocation, will be carried out. Thus on this occasion they will not succeed in the battle with the present Government. They are seeking a figure of £7 million for development there. The story is that the timber on Wexford Quay is completely rotten and worsening every day. That quay is the scene of shell fish landings for a terrific company in Wexford — Lett and Company — they employ some 100 people. It seems that if the timber is not replaced immediately Wexford Quay, for the first time in about 1,100 years will not have a landing area.

I hope the Minister will take this matter very seriously. As I said earlier the fishing industry is an area of great job potential. We have 100 jobs in Wexford and they depend on the landing area here being kept in the condition it is in. A proposal has been made to the Minister, Deputy Michael D'Arcy, and to the Minister for Finance in relation to the overall development of Wexford Harbour. This would include a car park, marina and of course landing facilities and so on. I would ask the Minister here this evening to lend his support to this development in the interests of job creation. As I said Lett & Company in Wexford have a massive mussel industry. They sell their wares to America and to Europe. The market is growing year by year and they must be congratulated for that. If only the Minister would show the same initiative as Lett & Company of Wexford then I would feel that the fishing industry would be in a very sound position.

Could I first of all thank the members who participated in this debate. There was a constructive and reasoned approach by all members who participated and I would hope that for everybody's sake we can do something worthwhile for the fishing and forestry industries. Obviously time restraint prevents me from going through all the contributions to the extent that I would like and from replying to all the questions that have been put on the issues raised.

All I can say about Kilmore Quay is that I will get the information for the Deputy and he will have it within a matter of days. The Deputy asked a series of questions concerning Kilmore Quay, Duncannon, Ballyhack and Slane. I will get the information for him under the four different headings. In relation to Wexford Quay, I want to say that if the retention of 100 jobs depends on the condition of the quay being maintained then this will be done in order to maintain these jobs.

We have problems in the industry and these have been referred to by Deputy Daly, the Fianna Fáil spokesman, who was very reasonable in his comments having had experience of the inner workings of this business. He is aware of the difficulties that any Minister confronts. I would like to refer to the policy of BIM. This policy, as the House knows, was endorsed by successive Governments. This meant putting as many boats as possible into the sea at a particular period and for a very good reason. Many people would now say that the wrong orientation was there at the time, and so on. The policy of BIM and successive Governments was to make a case for themselves to get the absolute maximum quota when quotas and tax were being applied by the EEC. Undertakings were given by this country to double its catch over a short period. We had not got the capacity to do that at that time. Boats were made, approved, manufactured and put in the water. We have now reached a stage where our fleet is capable of carrying out the job it has to do, which is fishing, in our own waters and, where we have got facilities, fishing outside our waters. The problem here is that the markets have been depressed.

As the House is aware, nobody can point the finger at anybody else on that question. Markets in the more popular species of fish to which we have committed ourselves have been depressed. When the rush was on to get boats into the water we concentrated on gearing ourselves up for mackerel and herring basically and also whiting and cod. We now find that not only do quotas apply to these particular species but that the prices and the market situation is such that it no longer pays to fish for these species to the extent that it did. In relation to mackerel I fully agree with Deputy Cope Gallagher that there is a problem in Donegal and Killybegs because of the Nigerian problem.

He mentioned to me about six months ago that I should go to Nigeria. I am in constant touch with our foreign affairs people there. We also have CTT people there. I sent out a BIM representative to find out what the position was and whether it would be worth my while going out there. I am not talking politics here. I would not mind trying and if I fail, well and good. The advice I got was that because of the political situation out there, my presence would not mean much. I was prepared to take the advice of the people who were there on a fulltime basis. If that situation changes, and if it is felt by the people there that my presence might be of any use I will go there. To bring the Members up to date in relation to Nigeria, I would say that in the last number of days import licences were issued by the Nigerian authorities for limited imports of controlled products. This is a message that came to us very recently. It is still very vague. There is a movement on import licences. We are not too sure to what extent or to what degree these will affect us favourably. We are keeping in very close touch with the situation. We are hoping that we might be able to get our people to avail of whatever is out there. Members will also be aware that we have a very substantial cover for export insurance for people exporting to Nigeria.

I would like to mention another matter raised by Deputy Daly and Deputy Gallagher on the importance of research. Under the Common Fisheries Policy we have a subhead concerning exploratory fishing. We have to look at this very seriously in this country because we are too dependent on too few species, when one considers that 60 per cent of our total catch is made up of mackerel. Our total exports last year represented 73 per cent mackerel. Apart from being foolish, it is very dangerous. If anything goes wrong with the market in regard to that species, we will be in trouble, as we are this year because of the unforeseen situation in Nigeria which was our main market.

Over-dependence on a narrow base is very dangerous and foolish. We were geared towards that in order to get into volume catches. We have reached the point where we have to impress on people the necessity to seek new species for which there is a market. There is no point in exploring and getting something that one cannot sell at the end of the day. The selling of a commodity or product, or species of fish in this case, is as important as finding out where it is and being able to catch it. It is important also to sell it at a price which is worthwhile and profitable.

We have this approach and we will continue to impress on the people involved the need to avail of the moneys that are there for exploratory fishing and for the restructuring of our fleet. We have met with modest success in the industry due to the efforts of the people involved in the industry. Last year, for the first time, we had a very successful fishery opened in the Porcupine. Prawns were caught there by the Rossaveal fleet. At the moment, there is a new fishery in the north-west for hake for which there is a very good market on the Spanish fresh fish market. These are two species which are new to us and in which progress is being made and hopefully it will be developed further.

There is another area to which I would like to refer. There is no way I can deal with all of the issues raised. In relation to the herring issue, I think it was Deputy "The Cope" Gallagher who mentioned the EEC tax on quotas and questioned the accuracy of scientific data and figures produced. We are depending on international scientific people, known as ICES, for the production of scientific data. We are now told that the herring fishery in the Celtic Sea is in much better shape, stock-wise, than was thought earlier this year. Consequently, we will be expecting an increase in our herring stock. There is no point in getting an increase in stock unless one can sell that fish at the end of the day. At our request, the Commission is examining the state of the herring market. We have been involved in this and we hope to inquire much further to see if, through the Commission, we can make some progress on improving the herring market. I am hoping we will be able to get an increased quota in the Celtic Sea. If we do that and at the same time do something to improve the market, it will be of some benefit to the herring fishermen in the area.

The other point raised, concerning the export refunds paid by the EEC, is something we can take up again in the light of, as Deputy Gallagher said, the circumstances which now confront the mackerel position in this country where there is stock-piling and our storage capacity taken up. We can definitely, because of the changed circumstances, approach them again on that issue. I am making no promises except that I will take it up with them.

The area of boat repayments is a big problem. There is no instant or ideal solution that will satisfy everybody. Figures are bandied about by fishermen and by their representatives and 83 per cent, 87 per cent, 89 per cent and arrears of up to 100 per cent are quoted in some categories. That is correct when one looks at the normal definition of arrears. A skipper can be in arrears for six months on paper but, because of the seasonality of the fishing industry, with most species at least, he may in fact be waiting until the cow calves as it were before taking in his harvest.

I was looking at a breakdown of this. While it looks pretty grim in the totality, looking at absolute percentages one finds in the biggest category of arrears on paper the average per head which is owned is very small. That is not to say that we do not have a problem. There are some categories where the indebtedness is big and where the capacity to repay is not great. We are looking at ways and means to try to come to grips with this, which I regard as a serious problem. BIM and ourselves have been talking about this. We are concerned about it and we will do our best to reach a solution.

I should like to mention the salmon position for the current season. There was always the 12-mile limit prohibition which was not adhered to. We are now in the position that there is an international convention to which we are signatories. We are depending on other people to adhere to it. It is important for us, for the sake of the stock in the North Atlantic, and for our part of that stock. If Canada, the Azores and other places keep their side of it more salmon could be released to us. It is an international prohibition but it has not been complied with or adhered to or indeed known to be there.

Vote put and agreed to.
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