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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 18 Oct 1984

Vol. 352 No. 12

National Economic and Social Plan: Motion (Resumed).

The following motion was moved by the Tánaiste on Wednesday, 10 October 1984:
That Dáil Éireann approves the policies set out in the National Economic and Social Plan —Building on Reality.
Debate resumed on amendment No. 1:
To delete all words after "Dáil Éireann" and substitute the following:
"deplores the failure of the Government's National Economic Plan to provide a strategy for reducing the overall level of unemployment; condemns the continued refusal of the Government to establish tax equity, and particularly its failure to ensure an adequate return from the business, farming and self-employed sectors; expresses serious concern at the additional cutbacks proposed in the public service; regrets the failure of the Government to take into account the principles expressed in the recently published Irish Congress of Trade Unions document,Confronting the Jobs Crisis; and believes that the plan is basically a restatement of unsuccessful social and economic policies pursued by previous Governments”.
—(Tomás Mac Giolla).

The point raised by my colleague, Deputy Reynolds, is symptomatic of the kind of morass into which this Government have sunk in all their dealings. Already there have been a number of major financial scandals that have seriously damaged the credibility of the Government and this whole question of the financing of Bord Telecom and the relationship of their finances to Central Fund financing requires very close investigation.

We had the rather pathetic sight of the Minister for Finance, when introducing his budgetary measures and making his annual economic commentary on the state of the nation, being unable to tell the House of a serious financial drain from this country that has been estimated to be at least £500 million. We have been put in an even more unreal situation with the production of the document we are now debating. This is yet another analysis of a situation that basically only requires effective and positive government. Unfortunately this Government appear to be suffering from a paralysis of analyses, if I might put it like that. We have another analysis on top of quite a few in the past two years but we have not had positive measures or decisions.

This document which is called the national plan is a type of bromide or drug, designed to dull the senses of Labour Party and Fine Gael Deputies in order to maintain an artificial unity in this Dáil while the nation is growing angrier every day. The people who have honourably supported the Labour Party and Fine Gael have a greater sense of the reality of the situation than the Labour Party and the Fine Gael parliamentarians who have sought to insulate themselves from the realities of life. They have cobbled this document together in order to stay on for a few more months. That is all this document is about. It is not about the economic, social and political problems of the nation. It is simply a document designed to produce an artificial unity in this House for the time being. The philosophy behind it is, "sufficient unto the day"— no more and no less.

The mood of anger among the people is not caused by the difficulties facing the Government. The Irish people have always been fair in their assessment of matters of that kind. If a Government are genuinely facing difficulties, the people understand. The mood of anger among the people is caused because of the inability of the Government to face up to the problems and to make an honest effort to tackle them. The Government have made cosmetic attempts to gloss over the problems as if they did not exist and their document contains downright fiction. This has happened also in other documents emanating from the Government.

The main fiction in this document lies in the first sentence. It states that the most serious problem is unemployment and that the first objective of the plan is to increase employment, but some pages later the unemployment figures are given in a separate table and they project a rise in unemployment in the three years from 1984 to 1987. This lip service with regard to tackling the problems of unemployment is shown as a particularly callous kind of hypocrisy because on page 145 of the document Building on Reality table 7-2 sets out the public capital programme for 1984 to 1987. There it is proposed to scale down the public capital programme so that by 1987 it will be 20 per cent below its present level and half the real level proposed by us in November 1982 for the 1983 public capital programme. I ask the Taoiseach in his reply to indicate how there can be any attempt to achieve the main objective in his document which is to increase employment? How can one attempt to deal with the serious problem of unemployment facing the country if at the same time the public capital programme is being drastically cut? It is basic and elementary economics that capital investment in both the public and the private sectors is the key to job creation. There is no other way in which more jobs can be created. One must have a public environment and a public policy which stimulate private investment and can run hand in hand with public capital investment so that the total of the two is sufficient to absorb as large a number of people as possible in gainful employment.

An analysis of this kind leads only to a paralysis of government and it cannot be pretended that it will solve the unemployment problems unless, as a centre piece of that analysis, there is a positive proposal or a series of proposals to raise the level of public and private investment so as to ensure more employment. It is a totally dishonest fabrication and sheer fiction to suggest that the unemployment problem can be met and at the same time the public capital programme be cut as drastically as this. There is not a single line in this document which in any way suggests how the private sector should be stimulated towards private capital investment which is equally essential in order to achieve the objective of lowering the level of unemployment.

As far as the private sector are concerned, there is nothing in the document to foster a revival of confidence in the economy. That is the essential prerequisite, the sine qua non before any real progress can be made. Confidence must be revived in the future of the economy so that the private investor, both at home and abroad, is stimulated to invest in it. There is nothing in this document which suggests how that should be fostered, nurtured and stimulated. In fact, the drain of funds out of this country, which was discovered at a very late stage by the Minister for Finance, is an ongoing factor about which nothing is being done.

I mention one industry where at present there is enormous scope for positive thinking and positive action — that is the construction industry. At present in that industry there are 45,000 people unemployed. There is scope for a unique investment partnership between the State, local authorities, financial institutions, trade unions and the private sector of the industry, which partnership has never been attempted before. This would mobilise all the available skills of workers, tradesmen, management and professional people in the industry. They can be mobilised by concerted and planned action and leadership on the part of the Government. In all these areas there are skills and talents tragically unemployed and untapped. This occurs right across the board — workers, the skilled, the professionals and management. The institutions within the State can provide co-operation if leadership and concern are shown by the State in mobilising such talents. The construction industry is one which presents very few balance of payments problems. The import content is only of the order of 23 per cent, 77 per cent being composed of home raw materials.

The whole question of job opportunities in the growing sector of high technology manufacturing industry and the expanding services sector is practically ignored in the document, although these are the areas which will undoubtedly provide the opportunities of the future for our skilled young workforce, such a unique feature of our sociological set-up at present. Our one great strength is the large skilled young workforce because of the existing excellent training and educational facilities. This is precisely the sort of young workforce which can be absorbed into the high technological and services industries which we in Fianna Fáil were encouraging through the agency of the IDA right through the late seventies. Yet, there are in this document no proposals for a far more intensified drive to provide this type of investment and to give the opportunities of the future to our young workforce.

The export performance of the electronic and pharmaceutical industries established during the period I have mentioned under Fianna Fáil is one of the few things going for the Government, yet they are marking time with respect to these industries. It is not enough to rely on the industries which we brought in between the years 1977 and 1981. It is time this Government stopped their paralysis of analysis, got up off their behinds and got down to the business of bringing in people with the investment required for a massive increase in an area in which we have more than adequately proved ourselves. It is an area of investment in which there are people willing to come and use this country as their base of operations in Western Europe, and particularly within the European Communities.

The only thing stopping that type of investment, as I have heard from these people time and time again, is lack of confidence in a Government which are ideologically disunited and divided. Those who have the money for these investive purposes see no sense in coming into an investment climate created by a Government which lack a consciousness or an orientation with regard to investment policies. Investors of that kind are not interested in Governments which stand still; they are interested in Governments which get up and go, make the necessary decisions and encourage and secure investment.

External investment required for these industries has now practically ceased and I challenge the Minister for Industry to come in here and say otherwise. The rising graph of investment from abroad into such industries located here has fallen drastically because there is an absence of confidence in the economy and an atmosphere which precludes investment here at present. This type of investment will not recommence on the desired scale until this unreal Government, ideologically split from top to bottom, departs from the scene and enables a climate of investment confidence to be restored which will encourage such people to invest here.

A further factor on which there has been a lamentable lack of decision making is the inability of the Government to introduce a rational and equitable tax system. This is deterring investment here and also placing an unfair burden on many of our own people. Yet the Government continue to sleep on the two reports of the Commission on Taxation where a number of practical proposals have been made and approved of in sideways comments by the Taoiseach and various Government Ministers. So far in regard to their adoption and implementation those proposals have been ignored.

Despite the serious matters which have led to a lack of confidence, a diminution of investment, a departure of funds from this country, serious matters which have prevented the Government from embarking on an equitable taxation system, despite those factors which require to be remedied almost immediately, this does not appear to deter the Government from moving off into another strange, mad land in which once again we see a reference in this document to the National Development Corporation. This corporation is peddled yet again for the umpteenth time. It was born out of feverish pre-election activities to smooth over the ideological differences between the proposed two partners.

It emerged at that early stage, and it has been mentioned in every analysis since. It is included again over several pages in this analysis. It has not yet seen the light of day. I should like to hear the Taoiseach say when it will see the light of day, what form it will take, what positive contribution it will make, and whether it will be in any way a departure from the sort of bureaucratic quango which is an excuse for analysts rather than people who want to do positive good and take positive political decisions. It has not yet seen the light of day, and the Fine Gael Party may prevent it from seeing the light of day.

It is mentioned in this analysis, while basic industries which are of real importance in our community and of real importance to the future of the economy get very scanty and meagre mention. I refer to the food industry, the fishing industry, tourism and forestry, four basic industries concerned with the development of our natural resources. They are barely mentioned whereas in our document The Way Forward all those areas are dealt with in great depth and great detail. I will give the House a few figures to bear out my point.

On tourism there are four solid pages of detail in The Way Forward. In this document there is a little over a page of waffle. I was glad to see an editorial in The Irish Times referring to it as such. It is a string of cliches put together without any real effort to tackle an industry in which we have many natural advantages. With selective and positive incentives in the way of tax grants and loan aids we could immediately stimulate employment in tourism and create an atmosphere of expansion which would lead to a very positive enlargement of employment fairly quickly. That is one of the merits of the tourism industry, apart from being an industry in which we have so many natural advantages. It is an area in which fairly rapid employment can be created if the appropriate stimulation is given.

There is no point in talking about a rate of expansion which is what Bord Fáilte talk about which is keeping level with the rate of inflation. That is not enough. There was a far bigger expansion of tourism in the world this year than ever before, and particularly in Europe. We got a smaller share of that cake and, relatively speaking, we did worse than any country in Europe in regard to the tourism business in the past six months. Make no mistake about it. A small increase which is talked about by Bord Fáilte is relatively bad compared with the real export performance of every other country within the European Community and within western Europe generally this year.

All we have in this document is a page of waffle without a single chart, a single statistic, or a single attempt to tackle the problem, apart from an attempt to boast about the increase in business this year which kept pace only with the fall in the value of money, no more and no less. So much for a very important sector of our economy, tourism.

Fisheries merited four-and-a-half pages in The Way Forward. We went into great detail in dealing with aquaculture and further developments of our marine resources outside the traditional fishing methods. Fisheries merited four lines in this document before us. Forestry merited another four or five lines. In our document it got two and a half pages. The food industry was dismissed in a paragraph, probably the major industry with scope for improvement and expansion in the whole agri-industrial area. These are facts.

One area in which we made very positive recommendations in The Way Forward was at page 50 where we made specific reference to import substitution. We made a specific proposal:

Special units will be established in the Departments of Industry and Energy to help achieve a significant increase in the extent to which Irish firms avail of the extensive and growing opportunities for import substitution which exist in the manufacturing sector generally and the building supplies industry respectively.

There is not a single reference to import substitution in this document. We could establish units such as we suggested in The Way Forward. I know the problems with the EEC and there is no point in the Taoiseach parading them for me. Administratively and in our own way by moral persuasion through units of this kind, we could achieve enormous progress in the way of import substitution which could be just as valuable as exports. Yet there is not a line, not a word, about it in this document.

There we have a number of basic areas where, by Government administrative action, something could be achieved. These are areas where decisions could be taken fairly quickly if the Government were serious about their business instead of suffering from the disease of paralysis through analysis. We are seeing the paralysis of the political will caused by the structure of this Government, and by their basic inability to grasp situations, take them on board, go ahead and make the necessary decisions, implement policies and carry out proposals.

The references to another major industry are pathetic. I refer to the references to agriculture.

Here we have some pages of waffle devoted to agriculture. Fianna Fáil have seven very solid pages in The Way Forward devoted to planning for agriculture. I, as Minister for Agriculture, left this Government a legacy of a four year plan for agriculture fully drafted and ready, and all the Government had to do was to implement it. They published it finally a few months ago and it is virtually ignored in the document here. The central message of our four year plan for agriculture is that there must be an investment in agriculture and the most practical way to achieve investment is to raise cattle numbers, the numbers in the national herd, cattle stocks. That is the basic barometer in regard to agriculture. You can quote all sorts of other statistics in regard to agriculture, but fundamentally unless this question of cattle stocks is tackled there is no hope of this Government really getting to grips with our major industry. It is well that the Taoiseach should know — probably he does not; he is not very hot on this area — that the question of cattle stocks is the most sensitive barometer of farmer confidence at the moment and at present the stocks are lower than at any time in the past 12 years, and the trend is downwards. There is no evidence in this document that any thought is being given to any action to provide the investment funds to our farmers to buy the necessary cows and expand their herd to provide this basic dynamic so essential in building up agricultural output.

Here the Taoiseach must bear a heavy load of responsibility, assuming as he does the mantle of credibility in regard to statistics. Page 19 of his document contains a statistic which is totally fictitious. A table there, dealing with output and projection of output in the years 1980-83, states that agricultural output rose by 11 per cent and on the basis of that 11 per cent rise over the past three years there is to be a 10 per cent rise over the years 1984-87. This is a fiction and a fraud. If the Taoiseach refers to his Central Statistics Office he will see that the whole output projections made in that, both in regard to agricultural output and GNP, are totally fraudulent because he has chosen a base in regard to agriculture which is at variance with the base chosen by his own CSO. He provides a base of 11 per cent in that document; in fact, according to the CSO, agricultural net output in the period 1980-83 increased by only 0.12 per cent. That is an important and serious omission and mistake, that you have there a difference between a 0.12 per cent increase in output between 1980 and 1983 and an 11 per cent increase in output in 1983 according to the table in this document. On the basis of that table there is a further 10 per cent in projected increase. Where does the Taoiseach get this figure which makes nonsense out of all the projections in regard to gross national output in that chart?

The real trouble is that the present Government, apart from the whole waffling nature of this document, their penchant for analysis rather than action and the complete paralysis of political will, have lost their way and they do not understand the role of Government. The people in their instinctive way realise now that this Government, in office now for practically two years, are not governing and do not appear to understand what they should be doing in Government. They have long Government meetings, whether in Donnybrook or Merrion Street, in which chit-chat but not decisions are the order of the day.

This Government must realise that what Government is about is making decisions and exercising the power necessary to implement decisions about nothing else. Government certainly is not about indulgence in peripheral affairs like setting up committees. We have had a number of Dáil committees set up. I said when they were established that this was all very desirable in its own way but not really a serious contribution to tackling the nation's problems. Of course, it sounded well, it read well, and the Government proceeded to indulge themselves in committee-making, setting up committees, engaging in the sort of chit-chat that goes on in committees. Generally this Government are behaving like a delinquent debating society, and we have enough of those around the place.

We do not want an Irish Government behaving like a delinquent debating society. Certainly Government is not about a charade of Government presented as being something real by an expensive team of handlers who are designed purely and solely to lull the people into a state of complacency, do a Houdini operation and try to persuade the people that something is there that is not there, that there is a Government there when such is not the case. We have arrived at the day when that has become a substitute for Government, a cosmetic covering, the emperor with no clothes, when all of what is there is a substitute for Government. That is the day when this Government must depart. That is why it is most appropriate that they depart now before the situation becomes worse — not for the Government because it is bad enough for them already, but from the point of view of the people.

There has been much talk here about Dáil reform, the reform of democracy, the creation of a new climate of understanding by the people in our society about what Government is about, what the Dáil is about and so on. We have had plenty of debates about that, but the single most important matter that needs to be resolved in this area is the revival of decision-making by an Irish Government. That is the most important reform and purpose of modern Irish democracy. With Fianna Fáil Governments in the past the emphasis was on decision-making. Government meetings were designed solely to make decisions. Decisions brought into this House for debate and made once they were carried in this House used to be our style of Government and will be so again. Above all, it was never so essential as at present to cut this Gordian knot of complacency, paralysis, chit-chat, analysing, producing White Papers and Green Papers and more documents and recommendations.

We want to break through that log jam and have a Government around the Government table making decisions quickly, explaining to the people and, above all else, exercising the power to carry them out. This Government are incapable of doing that for many reasons. They are incapable because of the personality problem of the Taoiseach. They are incapable because of the basic division between the Labour Party and the Fine Gael Party. They are incapable because fundamentally as a group of people nobody there is willing to take the Government by the scruff of the neck and say that we must carry out our business in the people's interests, instead of trying to view the parade of the business of Government through the rose-tinted spectacles of various points of view prepared, handled, orchestrated and organised by professional people who want to package our Government, like the packaging idea originally reached in the United States. At that time there was the infamous book written by Theodore White on the packaging of a President. That President did not last too long because he met his problems. As sure as night follows day the Government will meet their problems because packaging a Government in a form of tinsel wrapping is no answer at the end of the day. The Government are approaching the end of their day because finally the people have discovered for themselves the type of administration that has been inflicted upon them. The sort of packaging and presentation without action and decisions that we have at present will not continue because we have an intelligent democracy here. The people now realise what is behind the charade that has been inflicted upon them by, in particular, the Taoiseach, his handlers and the Government.

It is necessary that the Government should contemplate their departure as quickly as possible because of their incapacity and inability to make decisions. Only a Government that will embark on the decision-making process will regenerate faith and belief in the nation's progress which is required to restore not only the confidence of our own people in the future, something that is lacking at present, but also the confidence of those friends and investors throughout the world, particularly the US and at home, who have money, ability and skills. Those people would dearly wish to build a prosperous Ireland and help us in our efforts. We want to see all those people taking part in the rebuilding of our nation. However, not alone do we have to restore the confidence of those who voted us here but we must restore the confidence of those who can play a positive role in further enhancing development here so as to provide the type of job creation we need for our young people in the future. It is only through the restoration of such confidence that we can build a prosperous nation that will be free from the incubus and the burden of the worst Government we have had since the foundation of the State.

The time is nigh for a change. There is no point in postponing the day. The temporary postponment the Taoiseach may achieve by producing this fictitious document may gain a few weeks or a few months for him, but when the fall comes it will be greater. The people outside have risen and are on the march. They are fully sustained in the knowledge that there is an alternative Government available to take the place of the Coalition and take the necessary decisions in the national interest. The risen people will speak all the louder if they are thwarted much longer by the Taoiseach's inaction, delay and decision to stick with office with ideologies and ideological friends with whom he does not have anything in common.

I should like to say to the Labour Party that they should not be in power with people with whom they do not have anything in common. The supporters of that party are saying that. The supporters of the Labour Party, and Fianna Fáil supporters, will when the next election comes along ensure that Fine Gael are restored to their minority position in the Dáil. The 55 per cent we achieved in the recent opinion polls will be discarded as part of history because we will be running well ahead with the combination of our supporters and the supporters of the Labour Party. They will work together to eliminate this nefarious influence that has perpetrated itself on Irish public life in the form of an incompetent Taoiseach and an incompetent Fine Gael Party run by handlers and chancers with whom our supporters, supporters in the Labour Party and in the Fianna Fáil Party, will have nothing to do.

I will endeavour as best I can to follow that knockabout turn. At the outset of my speech, I want to make one emphatic point. The national plan Building on Reality when endorsed by the Dáil tonight will no longer be merely a Government document — it will, by virtue of this endorsement, have become the property of the Irish people. It will be their plan, the basis upon which they will be basing their decisions in relation to economic and social matters for the three years ahead.

In the course of my remarks this evening, I shall, for some minutes at least, be responding to criticisms by the Opposition, and responding to them in terms as blunt as those which have been used in Opposition criticisms of the plan. I must do that in order to set the record straight. But that having been done, and the plan having been endorsed by this House of the Oireachtas, I hope that it will, like other plans at an earlier period, cease to be an issue of contention between the parties and become the common ground upon which all of us can build together during these three critical years, build a solid foundation for the future progress of the people of this country.

Having said that I want, before dealing with points made by the Opposition, to highlight the principle aspects of what we will have achieved with Building on Reality. First, we now have firm Government decisions for economic and social policy over the next three years and the implementation of these decisions is already under way. The certainty and stability essential for economic growth have been established with this plan and these decisions.

On the economic front the rise in unemployment will be halted and reversed during the period of the plan. The number of jobs, which has fallen over the past four years by something like 40,000 will increase rapidly in the years ahead. The PAYE burden has now stopped rising and we will prevent it rising further and seek to ease it even within the period of the plan. Living standards are starting to improve and will continue to do so during these years after a period of four years during which they have fallen on average by something like 10 per cent. Public expenditure during these years will not rise in real terms. This means that the whole of future growth will be available for increased investment and improved living standards in contrast with the last four years during which we had stagnation in output with the public sector taking an increased amount from that output. The residue has not been sufficient either to maintain living standards or to maintain investment. We have, unlike our predecessors in Government, taken the decisions which will ensure that expenditure is curbed. Deputy Lenihan's strictures on this point of decision-making in the closing part of his speech could scarcely be more inept. No previous Government decided, as we have done, on the detailed limits for current expenditure, Department by Department, and Vote by Vote, as well as the capital spending side for three years ahead. The scale of the decisions we have taken, the detail of them, and the disciplines they will impose on the whole system of the public sector is something unique that has never previously been attempted. Deputy Lenihan could scarcely have been wider of the mark in that respect.

Moreover, public sector borrowing and the current budget deficit are being reduced during the period of the plan fast enough to halt the diversion of an ever-increasing share of our tax revenue into interest payments on a mounting public debt but the reduction will not be so fast as to damage the economy.

I will conclude this brief summary by saying that the aims of the plan are modest — deliberately so — but they can and will be achieved.

In contrast to the Government's coherent, imaginative and credible plan, the Opposition's approach to the debate has been internally inconsistent and negative. Its inherent absurdity can best be demonstrated by identifying one by one the assumptions underlying the attack on the plan by the Leader of the Opposition in his opening speech which I have read and analysed with care. First, he thinks that interest rates are going to go on rising. He rejects the assumption underlying the plan that at some point next year they will begin to fall — Dáil Oficial Report of 10 October 1984, Volume 352, column 2169. Second, he expects the Labour force to grow by more than we have assumed, even though we have based our figures on the latest demographic projections and, within these, upon the most optimistic assumption on emigration — column 2170 of the Official Report. At column 2170 he claims that public service pay will rise by more than the amount we have allowed for — our decision on this, he alleges, "damages the credibility of the entire exercise". He argues that faster progress should be made in reducing the deficit and borrowing — our rate of progress is too slow. In the next column he asserts that there should be a reduction in tax levels before 1987 — we are criticised for not having proposed and projected such a reduction.

At columns 2176 and 2177 he holds that we should not have substituted the farm tax for income tax; but if we had not done so we would have lost some £30 million in revenue. The figure will approach £40 million by 1987. At column 2170 he says in his view the cash limits for public spending are unrealistically low. At column 2174 according to him, we should not have attempted to cut the cost of the health services. In the next column, 2175, he says that we should not have imposed any restriction on local authority housing maintenance. At column 2180, he calls for a higher level of capital spending and says that we should have made "room" for this in some unspecified way.

I think this fairly and comprehensively summarises the main criticism of the national plan by the Leader of the Opposition and repeated by many subsequent Fianna Fáil speakers. These criticisms raise the question, however, as to what actual policy the Opposition believe we should pursue. I have read and re-read Deputy Haughey's speech, in particular, for some clue as to the Opposition's thinking on this subject. Beyond a reference to the need for a "complete turnaround in thinking and policy"— another U-turn? — I could find no clue of any kind. I challenge any Member of the Opposition to direct my attention to any such clue in any line, sentence or paragraph in that speech. The mystery is really quite profound.

Deputy Haughey in his speech assumes less favourable external conditions than those on which the plan is based: we, he alleges, are too optimistic, and by clear implication our national growth rate will be slower than we have projected. He assumes that spending levels would be higher. He regards our decisions on public service pay as unrealistic, rejects our spending cuts and wants bigger increases in public capital spending. He believes that taxation should be reduced as a proportion of GNP during the period of the plan. He manages to believe simultaneously that we should reduce the deficit and borrowing faster than we propose to do — presumably, in view of the wording of his criticisms, and the proposals of his own document The Way Forward, to which he referred and whose proposals he did not modify in any way — eliminating the deficit by 1987.

Frankly, if, especially against the background of the first assumption about unfavourable external conditions, he can believe that those three latter objectives can be achieved at the same time, he might be able to govern Wonderland, but he is totally incapable of facing up to the task of governing this or any other country in the real world. How anyone can argue for the elimination of the current budget deficit by 1987, while simultaneously calling for more spending and less taxation, and all this in a more unfavourable external environment, quite escapes me, and will, I believe, escape the electorate also.

The absence of a positive proposal of any kind from his speech must constitute a record for any politician purporting to expect to be in Government. His words were in fact the words of a man who despairs of ever being in Government and feels he can luxuriate in totally negative criticism, regardless of the absurdity of the picture he, by implication, draws of the policies he would pursue. His speech has, in fact, ruled him out from the world of serious politics. He used the phrase "emperor without any clothes" during his speech. It struck me how appropriate it was to the Opposition's own position as set out in their Leader's speech. I believe I am dispensed from further comment on the Opposition's barren approach to this debate and can concentrate instead on the positive and constructive task of presenting the national plan to the people of this State.

Before doing so I should like, however, to mark the contrast between the attitude of the then Opposition to the early economic programmes of the late fifties to the early sixties and the attitude of the present Opposition to this plan. I believe that there are only ten Deputies in this House today who were there in 1964, including the Leader and Deputy Leader opposite when the Second Economic Programme was launched — the first document to set out a number of specific targets for economic performance — without, however, going into as much detail in respect of the current Government finances as has Building on Reality.

At that time I was not active in politics, but as an economist I was asked by the then Opposition for my advice on their reaction to that plan, with whose preparation I had been closely associated as had the present chairman of the National Planning Board. While pointing out that my advice was somewhat partisan because of my close involvement with the preparation of the document, I said that in my view the national interest would not be served by any attempt to denigrate or downgrade it; but instead that I hoped the Opposition, then under the leadership of Mr. James Dillon, would give the plan their support, while going into such peripheral constructive criticisms as they might think appropriate. My advice was taken by an Opposition which had a deep sense of their duty to the nation and which put that before any thought of short term advantage.

That Second Economic Programme largely achieved its targets, although, somewhat foolishly as I thought at the time, it was effectively abandoned by the then Fianna Fáil Government after the recession of 1966, when it appeared for a time that their targets had been rendered unattainable by that relatively minor setback.

I regret very sincerely that the same spirit that existed in politics then, the sense of solidarity where the national interest was concerned, transcending party considerations, is not present today. We now have opposition divorced from logic or argument, simply for the sake of opposition.

What about The Way Forward?

But in the first instance this will not deter us from the task we have undertaken, and in the second place I am not sure that it matters as much as it might have done then, because our people today have become a good deal more sophisticated and brush off very lightly the kind of political rhetoric that we have heard in this House since last Wednesday, recognising in its totally negative character an element of party politics that contributes nothing to the national advantage.

I turn, therefore, to the plan itself, with some preliminary comments on one or two points where questions have been raised which I think deserve an answer. One of these questions relates to the assumptions about the growth of the labour force upon which the employment-unemployment projections are based. As I explained to the House in a reply to a Parliamentary Question last Tuesday, this projection is based on the latest demographic forecasts available to us, prepared by an expert group with participation from outside the Civil Service; or, to be more precise, it is based on one of a pair of alternative projections prepared by that group — the forecast that assumes a lower rather than a higher level of emigration. I should add that the average increase of 15,000 in the labour force, upon which these calculations are based, is higher than that recorded in the labour force survey in 1982-83, the latest year for which data are available and higher than the middle estimate for 1984-87 presented earlier this year in the ESRI study on employment and unemployment.

We used the authoritative figures. We could have tried to justify using lower figures to make the task seem easier by using the latest increase we have for the last year or by going back to the ESRI paper. We did not do that but took the figures produced by the expert group and used them. Apart from that point, a second query about the assumptions on which the plan is based appears to be the suggestion that it should have assumed continuance of American interest rates at the present high level indefinitely. No other country, so far as I am aware, is working on such a remarkably pessimistic assumption and if we were to do so, and to draw from such an assumption the logical consequences, we would have to make room for the additional interest rate burden by very substantial additional cuts in spending, undertaken on a purely speculative basis, and with obviously most damaging effects both in social terms, and in terms of their deflationary impact on the economy. I do not think that we are being unduly optimistic in the assumption we have made that there will be some fall in interest rates at a certain stage in the year ahead, but I am content to leave this judgement to those who read the plan. We at least have been completely open in stating clearly the precise assumptions with regard to the external environment upon which the plan is based, so that each person who reads it can make their own assessment of its realism.

Another criticism relating to figures on which the plan is based is that which suggests that the public service pay targets are over-optimistic. I can only say that the Government gave the most careful consideration to this matter and came to the conclusion eventually that the maintenance of public services, of social welfare provisions, of a reasonable level of employment in the public sector — adequate to service the needs of the community, and our view that the burden of taxation should not be increased; all these combine to require that the public service pay bill be held at the figures set out in this programme. This is not a question of optimism or pessimism. We are talking here about a decision that the Government have had to take in the public interest. There could be no real plan that did not set out figures of this kind as part of the framework.

We believe that unpalatable though this decision must necessarily be to the public service — and indeed to parliamentarians whose pay is linked to that of public servants — this decision must and can be upheld and will in fact in the ultimate have the co-operation of the members of the public service, not merely because they enjoy an exceptional degree of security of tenure, together with assurance of pay-related pensions on their retirement, but even more because through the nature of their work, they are aware, in a way that is not quite as true of the rest of the community, of the compelling need to maintain public services and to hold taxation to its present level.

This decision of the Government is, of course, crucial to the success of the plan. We shall be most anxious to discuss the details of its application with the unions that represent the public service, with whom I hope and believe we will be able to secure the necessary measure of agreement on this aspect in the public interest. Though, of course, the family income supplement scheme and the later child benefit scheme will cushion the impact of these public service pay provisions on low paid workers with families in the public service, as it will in the private sector, the Government will be anxious also in these discussions with the unions to have particular regard to the interests of these lower paid workers.

There has been some criticism of the Government's attitude to tax reform and in particular to the proposals of the Commission on Taxation. This criticism is based on a misconception. The Government remain committed to moving towards the goal of a simple, equitable and efficient tax system but tax reform is not something that can be accomplished overnight. The Commission on Taxation have stressed that tax reform must be phased over a period of time to meet the requirements of fairness and practicality. Indeed they seemed to visualise some of their recommendations as requiring a very long period of time to be achieved.

The Government consider that the current high level of taxation restricts the degree to which structural tax reform can be considered. Much of the reform will have to await an easing of the tax burden. Some of the more ambitious proposals of the Commission on Taxation cannot be implemented in the period of the plan. The Commission would not suggest that they should be. I refer here specifically to the proposed abolition of mortgage interest relief and to the proposed single rate of VAT, including the application of VAT to food. It would not, in the view of the Government, in the view of the two parties, be right to impose the severe costs on certain groups which these steps would at the current levels of taxation, involve. I am not prepared to effect a 15 per cent increase in the price of food in order to bring down other VAT rates to that level, the net effect of which at this time would be strongly repressive and very damaging to the social interests in terms of the effect it would have on the less well off. Nor am I prepared to add a couple of thousand pounds at a stroke to the tax bill of a young married couple just setting up house.

The new farm tax represents a major reform in taxation as it applies to an important section of the community. I am convinced that the approach which the Government have decided on: to apply a tax to the productive value of the land, to exempt smaller farmers from the complexity of income tax and to apply the revenue for local purposes, will provide positive benefits on a broad front. A number of technical issues of implementation are now receiving expert attention and when the relevant legislation is circulated it will confirm that what the Government are proposing is both workable and ensures that farmers make a fair, and greatly increased, net contribution to the State and local authorities, increased in a way that would not have been practicable if the existing taxation system had been maintained intact, as the Opposition apparently prefer.

Let me turn from this brief review of some of the points that have been raised with respect to the assumption underlying the plan to a consideration of the need for a plan of this kind, and the reasons why it takes the shape it does.

The need derives above all from the requirement to reintroduce into the life of this country some element of certainty and security about the future development of public policy, especially in relation to the level of taxation and the pattern of public spending both current and capital. This need, combined with the need to provide an assurance of political stability in the years ahead, is, I think, felt quite desperately by very many of our people in every walk of life, whatever their political convictions. They have been through a most traumatic period — one without parallel since the war years. During two years of political instability, marked by three changes of Government, their living standards fell on average by 10 per cent and because of the way in which the living standards of the least well-off, those on social welfare, were protected, even improved, during this period, the impact on those at work was on average even greater than these figures would appear. Moreover, during the three years from 1980 to 1983, broadly contemporaneous with this period of falling living standards, unemployment virtually doubled.

On top of all this there was a deep uncertainty about the future brought about by the gross disorder in the nation's finances — knowledge of which, through the political debates occasioned by these elections, became common currency among our people during this difficult period. They knew that the level of national borrowing had reached astronomical proportions and that each year an increasing proportion of their taxes was being eaten up in interest payments, much of it payable to foreign bankers in respect of debts incurred abroad.

In this crisis of national morale our people demanded action by their Government that would restore their shattered confidence in the capacity of the political system to serve their needs. Their expectations have not been unduly high. They have not sought unrealistically an overnight elimination of unemployment or a dramatic recovery in their living standards to those to which they became accustomed by the early eighties. Nor have they demanded, with any real conviction, a substantial immediate drop in the burden of taxation, though that is the ambition of us all.

What they have required from their Government is a plan that will show that each of these problems is being tackled and that progress, even if necessarily in the early stages somewhat limited progress, is being made with each of them. And that is what Building on Reality achieves.

It makes no false claims in respect of unemployment. It does not pretend, as the document Development for Full Employment published on 16 June 1978 pretended — believe it or not — to have a “programme for ending unemployment within five years”. That was the policy with which Fianna Fáil attempted to fool the people. The plan proposes instead concrete actions designed to halt the already slowing increase in unemployment, and to reverse it, so that in the later years of the plan unemployment will be falling rather than rising. The plan could, of course, have raised false hopes by phony figures but it has not done so. Even if this Government had been prepared to indulge in that kind of exercise, which we are not, I am all too conscious of the fact that after the many deceptions of recent years, any claim to be able to reduce unemployment rapidly would, quite properly, not have been believed.

This plan does not propose to restore by 1987 the level of living standards of three years ago. Under exceptionally favourable conditions, both externally and domestically, I suppose that this might be possible. But we have no right to make such assumptions of exceptionally favourable conditions, and a more realistic assessment has suggested that, with due allowance for the continuing, though now slowing increase in population, living standards in 1987 will be 2.5 to 3 per cent higher than they are today.

We could have held out an inflated hope of a significant reduction in the burden of taxation in this period, though, once again, our people, knowing the level of borrowing to which past extravagances pushed this State and the high burden of interest payments that have to be made each year on this borrowing, would have been unlikely to have believed any claim on our part to have been able to achieve such a significant reduction within the next couple of years. Instead we have made the realistic commitment to hold the overall burden of taxation at its present level and, within this framework, to improve the equity of the system. This may not be a spectacular target but it is a realistic one. This Government aim to be realistic and have no desire to emulate their predecessors and become a spectacle.

Again, we could have held to our original ambition of eliminating the current deficit by 1987 — the objective which we set ourselves on coming into Government. But, realistically, faced with the enormous increase in the burden of interest, even on the reduced amount in real terms now being borrowed by the Exchequer, this could have been accomplished only at the cost of a deflation of the economy which would not only have brought severe hardship, but could, indeed, have initiated a downwards spiral which might have been very difficult to halt.

Thus under each of these headings our ambitions are palpably modest. Deputy Flynn is welcome to this point, I make him a present of it, but what he clearly misses is the point that, unlike other documents produced in the late seventies, the very modesty of our proposals means that they carry conviction and have done so already since the plan was produced. Where people have lost confidence in the kind of claims that have been made by politicians in recent years, they can now find confidence again in these more modest and realistic aspirations, which they can see are capable of being achieved.

Moreover, they now have a firm and solid basis upon which to plan. They know, uniquely for the first time since the foundation of the State, the broad shape of the next three budgets. They know that these will not contain any increase in the burden of taxation, and that such adjustments as will be made will be in the direction of reducing, even if in the first instance only by a small amount, that share of the burden that falls on the PAYE taxpayer. They know also in which areas Government capital spending will be reduced because of the completion of major programmes, as in the case of telecommunications and power station construction, or will be held back, and those areas in which it will be pushed ahead rapidly, as in the case of road construction and educational building. They know the scale of the housing programme that has been decided upon, and can make plans accordingly.

Moreover, uniquely, they know just how this Government propose to restrain their own current spending in the years ahead — holding the level of this spending down in such a way that the whole of the increase in national output in these years ahead will be available to boost living standards for a rising population, and to increase investment: not merely public investment in the sectors I have mentioned, but leaving room for additional private investment also. They know where the Government propose to cut Government spending and the precise effects in respect of each Government Department of the sum of individual decisions that have been taken with respect to current Government spending under the individual heads into which this spending is classified.

No Government have ever previously imposed such a discipline on themselves.

Nonsense.

Will the Deputy tell us which Government did it when?

Nonsense.

The Taoiseach should keep going with his modest document.

It has been the consistent pattern of all previous Government programmes that they have failed to impose such a discipline on current spending, and have in each case failed, albeit in varying degrees, to hold down the weight of current expenditure by the public authorities.

All of this provides a framework within which both the private sector and the public sector can plan their entrepreneurial expansion in the years ahead. People now know where they stand——

They certainly do.

——and because they know where they stand, they know how they can move ahead. This is what a National Plan should do and this for the first time is what an Irish National Plan is doing.

It has not been easy to achieve this outcome. I would be less than frank if I did not admit that at certain moments during the past year I have almost despaired of being able to achieve at one and the same time these different targets which we had set ourselves — an increase in employment that would match and outrun the fall in employment over the last four years; a reversal of the rise in taxa-unemployment; a halt in the rise in taxation; a substantial reduction — a cut of one-third in the event — in both the current deficit and borrowing, bringing total public sector borrowing down to a lower level in terms of GNP than at any time in the past decade — while at the same time as securing these objectives creating the conditions that make possible a revival of investment and a recovery, however modest, in the living standards of our people, which had fallen so spectacularly in recent years.

To have produced an honest plan, every assumption of which is clearly stated, every figure in which has been objectively verified, every Exchequer financial target in which is backed up by the specific Government decisions necessary to secure their attainment — to have achieved this from the point at which we started, is something of which I am frankly proud, without having any illusions that it represents more than a start towards the resolution of the problems that have been created by the gross extravagance with which our affairs were run for so many disastrous years.

There is an aspect of this plan upon which I want to lay particular stress. Inevitably it is the economic framework of the plan that has attracted most attention——

We are into Messiah politics now.

——and, from the social viewpoint as from every other viewpoint, it is vital that that economic framework be right, and that it work.

But economics is but a means to an end, that end being social justice. If, even in a period of grave economic difficulty, even at a time when a high measure of priority must be given to the restoration of economic growth — from which alone the resources needed for social progress can come — we set on one side or show ourselves forgetful of the social needs of our people, we may find that the social stability necessary for the attainment of these objectives is undermined.

I want to develop further this point about social reform. No one looking clear-sightedly at our society today could be satisfied that anything approaching social justice exists in this country. It is certainly true that neither the proportion of people of great wealth, nor the share of total wealth concentrated in the hands of a minority, is as great as many other societies. It is also true that we have made great strides in recent years in improving the general living standards of families without breadwinners in employment. Nevertheless the extent of under-privilege in our society remains horrifying.

The fact that the child of a professional person has an opportunity of securing third-level education 450 times greater than the child of an unskilled labourer is one of the most striking examples of the scale of this inequality — and one which the social reforms in the educational system during the past 15 years or so have unfortunately failed to alter significantly.

Again, while a significant proportion of the itinerant population has been settled and housed, there still remains a very large number who are not prosperous traders, but are living in dire poverty under conditions that are incompatible with any conceivable concept of Christian society.

The poverty and alienation of many people in parts of centres of our cities has contributed to a scale of crime, violence and drug addiction amongst young people in these areas, many of them young people without apparent hope of ever securing worthwhile employment.

We cannot rest while these social evils remain to be tackled. We are either in politics because we are motivated to deal with these social problems, or we should not be in politics at all. That means that we have to be willing to tackle the inequities in our social system, some at least of which derive from the extent to which we have built up and assiduously protected a system of transfers of resources from "haves" to other "haves" or back to the same "haves", a system that raises the burden of taxation to a level which impedes effective and adequate transfers to the "have-nots".

During a period of declining real incomes and living standards amongst the settled community of those with jobs, it is not easy to tackle this problem, or to make major progress with social evils such as those I have mentioned. What is remarkable perhaps is that during this recent period we have been able, unlike many other European societies, to sustain and improve the living standards of those who depend on social welfare. I cannot help feeling in retrospect, however, that the diversion of some small proportion of the resources put to this purpose into more selective schemes to aid those who are really at the bottom of the heap, might have been a more worthwhile and fruitful use of some of the money involved. We have been bad at targeting our aid to those most in need, and have tended to disperse it too widely and unselectively.

During the period of the national plan, as national output begins to rise again, and as, through the curbing of general State expenditure, resources are released for increased investment and to secure some improvement in living standards generally we must begin to revise and refine our social targets. We must start to tackle the problem of social disadvantage more intelligently and more skilfully. In this manner we can prepare the way for significant shifts in social policy in the years to come, on the basis of the analysis and recommendations being prepared by the Social Welfare Commission, which I am sure will have much to offer us in this field.

In the meantime, the plan itself makes a start, particularly in respect of educational disadvantage. Even for these three years ahead the plan is by no means the last word. The Government will be continuing to examine the existing distribution of resources for social purposes within the financial limits which have been set by the plan, with a view to modifying this distribution even within the plan period to 1987.

At the same time it is my intention that the work which must begin before long on the preparation of a plan for the period after 1987 shall focus explicitly and unambiguously on these social issues, and on improving the selectivity of our system of transfer resources through the tax and social welfare system. This next plan must of course work towards a reduction in the burden of taxation, together with a further phasing out of the current deficit, but these economic targets cannot and will not be pursued to the exclusion of our social commitment. That is a message which I wish to deliver unambiguously in this House today.

I referred earlier to the danger to our social stability deriving from social injustice. This stability is fragile. Our society has been destabilised in many ways in recent years — perhaps one might even say in recent decades. In the fifties, when, for seven successive years, emigration represented the equivalent of over three-quarters of our annual birth rate, our whole society appeared to be in disintegration. Tens of thousands of our people lost confidence in the viability of our society, and even those who had jobs in many cases left them to seek security for their children in other lands.

It was out of that threat to the stability of our society that the recovery of the sixties was born. As an impetus deriving from the desperation of our circumstances a new spirit was created in our society which gave birth to the economic recovery of the sixties and early seventies.

But those years carried within them the seeds of later instability. The Government that, inspired in their first programme by Dr. T. K. Whitaker, led that economic recovery, failed in the years that followed to realise the need to create a new ethos of mutual solidarity that would transcend and withstand the pressures of self-interest, of commitment to material gain, which flourish under conditions of economic growth.

Together with my commitment to achieving a radical change in then-prevailing political attitudes towards Northern Ireland, it was in fact the recognition of that failure of imagination on the part of the Government of that time, of which Deputy Haughey and Deputy Lenihan were both then members, that led me to take the step of entering politics. Stimulated by the critique of that increasingly materialistic society that was emanating from so many far-sighted young people with whom I had the advantage of being in close contact at that time, I decided to enter political life and to join with others, like Declan Costello, in trying to substitute for the materialist society then beginning to grow strong as new wealth was being created, the concept of a just society.

As the years have passed I have been increasingly convinced that my diagnosis of that period was profoundly correct — that from the mid-sixties onwards there was a desperate need for something like a spiritual revival in our country. Those of us who shared that vision cannot claim to have been successful in halting the growth in materialism, nor can we claim to have done more than soften some of the asperities of the cruder aspects of the capitalist system that evolved in our State under these hothouse conditions. But I believe we helped to keep alive the ideal of a society in which social justice would have a major role, and that many young people who might otherwise have succumbed to despair about the future of our society have been encouraged to maintain that confidence in the possibility of securing social progress, even in the face of the most adverse conditions.

The problem which I foresaw in the mid-sixties became acute to the point of frenzy in the late seventies when an artificial boom was created on top of the natural recovery which was occurring world-wide after the first oil crisis. It would be unfair to say that during those years the needs of the disadvantaged in our society were totally ignored. At least the level of social benefits was maintained or improved, even though little or no thought was given to filling the gaps in the system or introducing humanity into the areas where bureacuracy reigned supreme, much less to seeking consciously to turn the thoughts of our people away from the mere accumulation of wealth and towards the issue of how it should best be distributed in the interests of society as a whole.

These were years during which an illusion was created that the bubble would never burst — that the largely phoney rise in living standards, based on a totally unsustainable level of borrowing, could be maintained forever. Our people were sheltered from the realities of the world outside by borrowing from that world on a scale of unmatched recklessness.

And when the bubble burst the effect on our society was traumatic. Material living standards which had been boosted, partly artifically, by no less than one-fifth, suddenly collapsed, leaving behind a wreckage of bankruptcies, of debt-burdened households and, worst of all, of massive unemployment.

It would be unjust to claim that in the difficult conditions of the world-wide recession of the very early eighties there would not in any event have been here in Ireland as elsewhere a significant rise in unemployment. But had our resources been husbanded as they should have been during the late seventies; had we set aside prudently some of the increased wealth created in those years instead of spending it, and accumulating on top of that a massive additional burden of debt, we would have been able to mitigate to a very significant degree the tragedy of that unemployment. We would have had the resources at our disposal to sustain employment by boosting activity in the construction industry — instead of finding the ranks of the unemployed being swollen by those who are losing jobs that had artifically been created in that sector during what would, without any such artificial action, have been good years for that industry.

The risk to the fabric of our society from the pursuit of these policies has been enormous. A whole generation of young people who were brought up to believe not only that jobs were, and would indefinitely be available for all, but that from the moment of employment they could start trading upwards to larger houses in more attractive suburbs, and buying bigger cars, found themselves suddenly trapped with a mountain of debts like many farmers, and those who came after them, their younger brothers and sisters, found that where jobs had been created regardless of cost for those who went before, there were to be no jobs at all for the greater number of their generation.

We are now suffering from the aftereffects of this go-stop policy, which have destabilised our society at every level. This policy has brought ruin to many who were wealthy and whose wealth was built upon an illusion. It has brought hardship to many who were encouraged to live far beyond their means. And it has brought misery to tens of thousands who have lost their jobs and tens of thousands of others, young men and women completing their education, who find that there are no jobs for them. And, as a consequence of all this, it has brought a disillusionment about the political system and politicians which has not been confined to the individual politicans who carry specific responsibility for what happened during those terrible years, but has spread to the whole of politics, and has threatened our democracy itself. The recently published Youth Policy Report has shown that out of a long list of different professions, that of politician is held in lowest esteem by the young in this country. That this is so is a disaster — not just a disaster for those of us engaged in politics, who find ourselves faced with a generation of young people who have lost confidence both in the political system and in those who man it, but a disaster for our society as a whole and one from which it will with difficulty recover.

It will require the most dedicated leadership from those of us who carry the responsibility of leadership to reverse this tide of discontent and disillusionment. We shall have to engage in a mission to the new generation, during which we shall find ourselves facing a bitterness and hostility which will not easily be turned aside. We must not flinch from this. We must, now, at last, take our responsibilities.

The Taoiseach sounds like a Redemptionist.

Some of us are prepared to do so. I hope that we can persuade others. I hope that in these years immediately ahead we can not merely restore confidence in the financial stability of our economy, but also the confidence of people of older and middle years in our State, and, above all, the lost confidence of a whole generation in the possibility of effective democratic government in the interest of social justice. In the years that remain to me in politics I shall dedicate myself to that task and to bringing peace and stability to Northern Ireland.

Is the amendment being pressed?

, Dún Laoghaire): On a point of order, the order of the House states that the vote is to be put at 5 p.m. and it is now 4.55 p.m.

Thank you for drawing my attention to that. Is it agreed to wait until 5 o'clock to put the vote?

Deputies

Yes.

Amendment put.

The question is: "That the words proposed to be deleted stand". On that question a division has been challenged. Will Deputies calling for a division please rise in their places?

Deputies Mac Giolla, De Rossa and Gregory-Independent rose.

As fewer than ten Deputies have risen in their places in accordance with Standing Orders I declare the motion carried and the names of the Deputies dissenting will appear in the journal of the proceedings of the House.

Question put: "That the motion be agreed".
The Dáil divided: Tá, 82; Níl, 77.

  • Allen, Bernard.
  • Barnes, Monica.
  • Barrett, Séan.
  • Barry, Myra.
  • Barry, Peter.
  • Begley, Michael.
  • Bell, Michael.
  • Bermingham, Joe.
  • Birmingham, George Martin.
  • Boland, John.
  • Bruton, John.
  • Bruton, Richard.
  • Carey, Donal.
  • Deasy, Martin Austin.
  • Desmond, Barry.
  • Desmond, Eileen.
  • Donnellan, John.
  • Dowling, Dick.
  • Doyle, Avril.
  • Doyle, Joe.
  • Dukes, Alan.
  • Durkan, Bernard J.
  • Enright, Thomas W.
  • Farrelly, John V.
  • Fennell, Nuala.
  • FitzGerald, Garret.
  • Flanagan, Oliver J.
  • Glenn, Alice.
  • Griffin, Brendan.
  • Harte, Patrick D.
  • Hegarty, Paddy.
  • Hussey, Gemma.
  • Kavanagh, Liam.
  • Keating, Michael.
  • Kelly, John.
  • Kenny, Enda.
  • L'Estrange, Gerry.
  • McCartin, Joe.
  • McGahon, Brendan.
  • McGinley, Dinny.
  • McLoughlin, Frank.
  • Manning, Maurice.
  • Mitchell, Gay.
  • Cluskey, Frank.
  • Collins, Edward.
  • Conlon, John F.
  • Connaughton, Paul.
  • Coogan, Fintan.
  • Cooney, Patrick Mark.
  • Cosgrave, Liam T.
  • Cosgrave, Michael Joe.
  • Coveney, Hugh.
  • Creed, Donal.
  • Crotty, Kieran.
  • Crowley, Frank.
  • D'Arcy, Michael.
  • Mitchell, Jim.
  • Molony, David.
  • Moynihan, Michael.
  • Naughten, Liam.
  • Nealon, Ted.
  • Noonan, Michael. (Limerick East)
  • O'Brien, Fergus.
  • O'Brien, Willie.
  • O'Donnell, Tom.
  • O'Leary, Michael.
  • O'Sullivan, Toddy.
  • O'Toole, Paddy.
  • Owen, Nora.
  • Pattison, Séamus.
  • Prendergast, Frank.
  • Quinn, Ruairí.
  • Ryan, John.
  • Shatter, Alan.
  • Sheehan, Patrick Joseph.
  • Skelly, Liam.
  • Spring, Dick.
  • Taylor, Mervyn.
  • Taylor-Quinn, Madeline.
  • Timmins, Godfrey.
  • Treacy, Seán.
  • Yates, Ivan.

Níl

  • Ahern, Bertie.
  • Ahern, Michael.
  • Andrews, David.
  • Andrews, Niall.
  • Aylward, Liam.
  • Barrett, Michael.
  • Barrett, Sylvester.
  • Blaney, Neil Terence.
  • Brady, Gerard.
  • Brady, Vincent.
  • Brennan, Mattie.
  • Brennan, Paudge.
  • Brennan, Séamus.
  • Browne, John.
  • Burke, Raphael P.
  • Byrne, Hugh.
  • Byrne, Seán.
  • Calleary, Seán.
  • Collins, Gerard.
  • Conaghan, Hugh.
  • Connolly, Ger.
  • Coughlan, Cathal Seán.
  • Cowen, Brian.
  • Daly, Brendan.
  • De Rossa, Proinsias.
  • Doherty, Seán.
  • Fahey, Francis.
  • Fahey, Jackie.
  • Faulkner, Pádraig.
  • Fitzgerald, Gene.
  • Fitzgerald, Liam Joseph.
  • Fitzsimons, Jim.
  • Flynn, Pádraig.
  • O'Malley, Desmond J.
  • Ormonde, Donal.
  • O'Rourke, Mary.
  • Power, Paddy.
  • Reynolds, Albert.
  • Treacy, Noel.
  • Foley, Denis.
  • Gallagher, Pat Cope.
  • Geoghegan-Quinn, Máire.
  • Gregory-Independent, Tony.
  • Harney, Mary.
  • Haughey, Charles J.
  • Hilliard, Colm.
  • Hyland, Liam.
  • Kirk, Séamus.
  • Kitt, Michael.
  • Lemass, Eileen.
  • Lenihan, Brian.
  • Leonard, Jimmy.
  • Leonard, Tom.
  • Leyden, Terry.
  • Lyons, Denis.
  • McCarthy, Seán.
  • McCreevy, Charlie.
  • McEllistrim, Tom.
  • Mac Giolla, Tomás.
  • MacSharry, Ray.
  • Molloy, Robert.
  • Morley, P. J.
  • Moynihan, Donal.
  • Nolan, M. J.
  • Noonan, Michael J.
  • (Limerick West)
  • O'Connell, John.
  • O'Dea, William.
  • O'Hanlon, Rory.
  • O'Keeffe, Edmond.
  • O'Kennedy, Michael.
  • O'Leary, John.
  • Wallace, Dan.
  • Walsh, Joe.
  • Walsh, Seán.
  • Wilson, John P.
  • Woods, Michael.
  • Wyse, Pearse.
Tellers: Tá, Deputies Barrett(Dún Laoghaire) and Taylor; Níl, Deputies V. Brady and Browne.
Question declared carried.
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