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Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 23 Oct 1984

Vol. 353 No. 1

Order of Business.

It is proposed to take No. 3. Private Members' Business will be No. 64.

I have two questions for the Taoiseach. At this stage can he give a direct answer to my question about the publication of the Book of Estimates? Secondly can the Taoiseach give us any information — and I am asking this question subject to the usual limitations with regard to security — about the proposed meeting between himself and the British Prime Minister this year?

The Book of Estimates will be published within the next few weeks. It is in preparation at present but I could not give precise dates.

Within the next few weeks?

That is in November.

With regard to the meeting between myself and the British Prime Minister it was announced after our meeting in Downing Street on 3 September that there would be a meeting between us probably in November. That statement stands and has not been added to in any way.

I know it is undesirable in these cases to give any specific time or dates. Will the Taoiseach confirm that a meeting will take place between himself and the British Prime Minister in November and that that meeting will be in Dublin?

I will confirm that the arrangements made between us in September stand and have not been altered. I make no further statement or comment that that.

My question does not involve any breach of security. I am not asking the Taoiseach what was decided in September. I am asking him can he tell the House now if it has been agreed and arranged that a meeting will take place between himself and the British Prime Minister in November, or before the end of the year, and that that meeting will be in Dublin.

I have confirmed that the agreement reached between us that there would be such a meeting probably in November stands and that such a meeting will take place. As to the location of that meeting, in accordance with practice I will not make any statement.

The Taoiseach keeps talking about something which it was said would probably happen in September. We are now in October. I hope the Taoiseach will give me a simple answer to a simple question. Has it been agreed or not as of now that a meeting will take place between himself and the British Prime Minister in November or before Christmas, whichever way he wishes to answer?

The arrangements for the meeting have been agreed.

I put down a Private Notice Question asking the Minister for Transport if he had received a report from the newly appointed chairman of Irish Shipping Limited in which there was a recommendation to liquidate the company and if, in view of how important this is to the national policy and how frightened the employees are, he would make the Government's views clear on this matter.

I saw the question. I had to rule it out of order because it did not meet the criteria laid down for Private Notice Questions. My decision was conveyed to Deputy Wilson through my private secretary.

I know that. I do not want to argue with the Chair.

The Minister is here. He does not have to be asked a question. We now know that he does not have to be asked a Private Notice Question before he answers.

I ruled the question out of order.

On a point of order——

It does not arise on the Order of Business. I am surprised that the Deputy is lending himself to reducing this House to a shambles.

On a point of order, you have set a precedent that a Minister may answer without having a Private Notice Question addressed to him.

Perhaps the Minister for Transport will now answer Deputy Wilson's question without having a Private Notice Question addressed to him.

No such precedent has been set. The question has been ruled out of order.

I do not want to argue with the Chair. Far from it. I examined the criteria and I could not see how the Private Notice Question did not satisfy the criteria since people are ringing me about jobs and about their future.

Somebody has to decide on matters like that. In this instance I am the person who decides.

On a point of order could the Chair indicate to us what the criteria are?

I refer the Deputy to Standing Orders and if he is not satisfied he can come to my office and I will discuss it with him.

For the information of the House and the public. This thing of going to your office is not the way our business should be conducted.

We do not rely on precedents here. It is in Standing Orders and rules.

This is so that we shall know for the future.

I am not going to argue with Deputy O'Kennedy.

On a point of order——

I have given my ruling on the matter now. I call Deputy Mac Giolla.

The Chair must have some basis for the ruling.

Of course, he had.

Would he mind indicating to us what that is?

I have referred the Deputy to the Standing Order.

The Chair knows well that the Standing Order does not cover this case and I challenge him.

Deputy O'Kennedy will resume his seat.

I am asking the Chair to name the Standing Order that refers to this.

I am asking Deputy O'Kennedy to resume his seat.

I will sit down when the Chair indicates to me what Standing Order.

I am indicating to you that you will sit down. Deputy Mac Giolla, please.

This really is deplorable on the part of the Chair.

I am surprised at the Deputy.

That is too easy. The Chair has allowed an answer to a question that has not been asked. No Standing Order will cover that.

Could I ask the Taoiseach when he intends to bring before the House the promised legislation on equalisation of social welfare benefits?

That legislation is in preparation at present and it is in circulation to Government Departments. I hope to have it in this House in this session. I say "hope to", as experience has taught me to be cautious in these matters, but that is the present expectation.

On the Order of Business, will the Taoiseach indicate when a Bill will come before the House to liberalise road transport?

In this session.

On the Order of Business, may I ask the Taoiseach, in view of the proposed imminent closure of Verolme Dockyards, Cork, and the huge loss of employment in a firm which has a State equity of 48 per cent, if the Government would give time in this House to discuss the situation?

That does not arise on the Order of Business.

It is very important to know if the House will be given time to discuss this matter.

It does not arise.

Of course, it does arise. So the Government are not going to bother about Verolme Dockyard.

On a point of order——

I am calling item No. 3. I have had enough.

Could I ask the Taoiseach if he is aware of the very serious situation in the Cork area because of severe cutbacks by the Minister for Health——

That does not arise on the Order of Business.

I refer to the cutbacks at the Cork Regional Hospital which will bring real hardship on the people of Cork.

I call on the Minister of State at the Department of Agriculture. Order, please.

What is order in this House from now on? Would the Chair answer?

That is a big question.

Deputy O'Kennedy has made several attacks on me today. The substance of one of them — and this has been made by a number — is that I allowed a question to be answered which was not put. I allowed the Minister in answering a question to bring in some other matters which he related to the question, as part of his answer.

In accordance with Standing Order, the Chair said.

I call on the Minister of State.

May I just intervene? You have made an ex parte statement about this matter. I must point out that it seems to us on this side of the House that from time to time you rule out Private Notice Questions by Members of this House on such things as the Kerry case. On this occasion you permitted the Minister to give an answer about that case to questions which were not asked.

Because he related the matters——

Let me finish. Does it not therefore seem that we on this side of the House are entitled to think that there is not much point in asking you for permission to put down a Private Notice Question if in some cases you rule them out of order for reasons which are obscure to us and in other cases you allow the Minister to answer them when they have not been asked?

The Minister related the Kerry case to the question, in his reply.

I want to say that we on this side of the House are not clear and are not satisfied as to why the Minister brought these two cases into juxtaposition in his answer. They are both separate cases, both complex and both very sensitive. The Minister has not served the purpose of justice by bringing them together in the way in which he did.

I am calling item No. 2, Minister of State at the Department of Agriculture.

What does he mean by related?

If I do not get order, I shall have to adjourn the House.

On a point of order——

I shall have to adjourn the House unless the business is allowed to proceed.

We would be better off.

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