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Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 23 Oct 1984

Vol. 353 No. 1

Private Members' Business. - Food Subsidies: Motion.

I move:

‘That Dáil Éireann condemns the halving of the subsidies on bread, butter and milk at this time because of the serious and widespread hardship caused to the poorer and weaker sections of the community and calls on the Government to restore the subsidies immediately to their previous levels.'

It will be difficult at this stage to recreate the atmosphere that prevailed during the first few days of August when the House had gone into recess, and we were told that things were relatively on target, that plans were going right and that the national plan would be produced before the end of September. We understood that we would be debating whatever was in the national plan when the House met in October.

The poorest sections of this community will long remember 2 August 1984 as one of the harshest days in our history. It was on that day that the Government turned the screw on social welfare recipients and the poorer sections of the community. These cuts were said to be part of the national plan which had been brought forward for various reasons, among them the position of the US dollar. That position prevailed a few weeks earlier, on 5 July, when the House adjourned but the Taoiseach did not refer to it in his closing speech on the Estimates.

As well as the cuts in the food subsidies the Land Commission was abolished and the malicious injuries scheme was abandoned. People will now have to pay for malicious damage to their property, but tonight I am primarily concerned with the cuts in food subsidies and the effect they will have on the poorest sections of the community.

One of the main complaints about the cut in these subsidies was the way they were announced. It has been argued that different Governments made such announcements in the same way but in my view this is completely wrong and should never happen no matter who is in power. Last week many loyal civil servants were ridiculed by members of this Government when we were discussing the national plan but in August they were sent out to explain what could not be explained. I admit that people are entitled to their annual leave but it was very wrong to leave it to four civil servants to explain the position to the country. That should never have happened, and it should never happen again.

The decisions of that day added 2p to the pint of milk, 8p to the pound of butter and 8p to a loaf of bread, giving a saving of £20 million out of billions of pounds that are spent on public and other types of expenditure. We were told last week that cutting food subsidies had been discussed at the Cabinet meeting and that the decision was made on that day. These cuts hit particularly social welfare recipients and the less privileged in our community and they had a dramatic impact on those people.

It has been argued that these cuts have not affected certain sectors of the community as badly as Fianna Fáil and others, including Government backbenchers, said at the time. Deputy O'Hanlon asked a question about the effects these cuts would have on the health boards. The Minister said that it cost the Eastern Health Board £80,000, the Midland Health Board £23,000, the Mid-Western Health Board £30,000, the North-Eastern Health Board £30,000, the North-Western Health Board £49,000, the South-Eastern Health Board £50,000, the Southern Health Board £87,000, and the Western Health Board £73,000. At the end of that question the Minister said there were no funds at his disposal which would enable him to provide a special extra allocation for health boards to meet the extra charge. He went on to say that health boards were informed in December 1983 that their 1984 approved allocations were intended to cover all price movements in 1984. That seemed to infer that the people who drafted the budget were to be inspired that a decision would be made nine months later and that they should take account of that in their budgets. Does this mean that in future health boards, when submitting their budgets, should take into account that disastrous decisions such as cutting food subsidies may be made by the Government? Is the Minister saying that the health boards should have known in 1983 that the Government intended to halve food subsidies in August 1984? Because of these cuts the health boards are short of approximately £500,000.

Late in August statistics dealing with household budgets showed income bracket by income bracket how much everybody spent on almost everything. The poorer people — social welfare recipients and the less well-off members of out society — spent 20 per cent of their total disposable income on bread, butter and milk. The Government's figure of .5 per cent was totally inaccurate, but I will cover their figures in a few moments.

I would like to put on the record comments made by various Deputies, not just Fianna Fáil Deputies but Government backbenchers and the Leas-Cheann Comhairle. These cuts were denounced as scandalous. Senior members of the Labour Party said that these cuts were callous because they would seriously damage the most disadvantaged people in the community. They said these cuts were a savage attack on the working classes and poorer larger families would have to bear the brunt, and the measures were enough to cause a tremor in society. Now, a few months later, all this seems to be forgotten.

Bread, butter and milk are the staple diet of the poor but the Government did not take that into account. They are the major source of nourishment for children, but again the Government did not take that into account. At a time when there is mass unemployment of 200,000, and the take-home pay means that almost one million people are on the breadline, the Government saw fit to chop 20 per cent off their spending. This was totally unreasonable and callous. This measure was not thought out. These cuts were announced when people were going on holidays when the easiest thing for the Government to do was to hit an area which did not have a pressure group.

It is our job as an Opposition to put forward the case for those who cannot do so on their own. It is our job to prevent the Government from continuing to hit at the poorer sections. Last year members of the Government parties voted against them. The Government have imposed huge increases in the price of coal and they introduced VAT on clothes. All of this was done to balance the books, to satisfy the economists and to make people in the Central Bank, the Bank of Ireland and the World Bank happy. We are back to 5 per cent inflation, foreign debts seems to be in line and manufacturing exports are good, but how has all this been achieved? Before the summer the Taoiseach in a statement to the House referred to all of these things but he did not say it would be done on the backs of the under-privileged, the workers and the deprived people.

The national plan spells out how savings will be made. There will be a cut in respect of maintenance to houses and many jobs in the area of health will go. The attitude is to hit the defenceless people. It is a callous and disgraceful way of doing business. Before the summer recess this House voted millions of pounds to various semi-State bodies. These amount were voted through almost on the nod because it was essential that this be done before the recess. The way the ordinary working-class people are being treated by this Government is disgraceful, all the more so when part of that Government are members of a party who are supposed to be concerned about such people. They have turned their backs on the workers and they can be considered traitors. They continue to implement Government policies that have caused hardship to many under-privileged and last week they spelled it out again in the national plan.

The Government may say that the family income supplement which will affect 35,000 people out of 1 million families will change things but the people will not be fooled. The sad thing is that all of this is being done by a so-called caring and liberal Government who said they would bring in policies to help the less well-off and the deprived people. Their policies have meant cutbacks and savings and all of this has been achieved on the backs of the working classes. The Labour Party have reneged totally on all they ever stood for. This is very clear from the national plan and the trade union movement have told them so. Their back-bench Deputies have an opportunity now to vote with Fianna Fáil on this issue. Unfortunately it will not bring down the Government but they will have an opportunity to register their protest and to put their money where their mouth is, if all those statements that were made in the hazy, sunny days of August meant anything. I ask them to support this motion, to reject the policy of the Government in this matter and thus prevent this disgraceful situation occurring again which will happen if the national plan is followed.

When the cuts were announced the question was asked how social welfare recipients and the less well-off would survive. The answer from the four civil servants who braved the media and the country that night was that the 7 per cent or the 8 per cent given to social welfare recipients would help them to keep in line with inflation and would also cushion the effect of the cut in food subsidies. That was not the case. Even in the better years of 1977 and 1978 when unemployment was about 70,000, Fianna Fáil kept the food subsidies but at a time when unemployment is in the region of 220,000 the Government have removed part of the subsidies.

It is obvious that the removal of the food subsidies has not had the same effect on all sectors of society. Poor people gain substantially more out of food subsidies than do the rich and until an alternative system is found it was morally wrong and callous to remove them. While people in the top 14 per cent income bracket spend over 1 per cent on bread, butter and milk the poorer people spend from 5 to 7 per cent of their income on those commodities. The figure given of 0.5 per cent may have been correct for the top 14 per cent, although I do not think it was, but in respect of other sections it was wildly inaccurate. An effort was made to pretend it would have only a negligible effect but that was totally wrong. That was probably the reason that people who should have explained their action were long gone and could not be found for several weeks.

This Government love to come forward with good news and they delight in their public relations but on that night they ran away. The average urban householder spends 1.84 each week of their disposable income on bread and those at the lower level spend 7.53 per cent of the little they have on that item. How can that be reconciled with the Government's figure of 0.5 per cent? For the less well off the effect of the reduction in bread subsidy meant an increase of 1.28 per cent in their shopping for that single item. The average household spends 2.29 per cent of their disposable income on milk but the lowest group spends 8.39 per cent. On the other hand, the rich have been affected only to the extent of 1.33 per cent. These figures were taken from the household budget survey. The increases have hit the less well-off to a much greater extent. The family income supplement which is meant to cushion them has been a total failure because it ignores the many people who should be included.

The Government must also be criticised for their proposals with regard to children's allowances. Last week I argued against abolishing the various schemes that put money into the mother's hand which is the important thing. The Government may say that the money is still going into the household but one of the important benefits of the scheme for children's allowance was that it gave the mother money to buy essential foodstuffs.

The Minister of Health has said there will be no extra money in the Exchequer when all the schemes are taken together. While some of the less well-off may benefit, many of the 1 million people on the breadline will not benefit. We will wait and see what the budget proposes. I have no doubt that those in the lower and middle income brackets will suffer. When the Minister was in the House last week I asked him to clearly state the position and to state if the Minister for Health had given wrong information.

In their two years of office this Government have followed plan after plan and scheme after scheme. They have hit those in the category whom the Labour Party traditionally helped. Deputy McLoughlin condemned the cuts. He said they were immoral, wrong and callous and were hitting at the deprived and the under-privileged. What has he got to say about the national plan? What has he to say about the cuts? The family income supplement will not help the less well-off. Help towards the maintenance of houses is now gone and this is a further cutback on those who cannot afford it. All of these issues show clearly that the Government have now found a soft way of balancing their books, a way to satisfy the economists, to control the various interests they want to impress, the people who say that you judge how well you are doing by inflation being low and unemployment high, social welfare recipients being taxed, bringing children's allowances into the net, as if every person who is unemployed is some type of a gangster and as if they were parasites on the Irish nation. Those are the people who are out there suffering.

Are Fine Gael Deputies and Labour Deputies in particular unaware of the hardship which exists at present? Are they aware of the huge poverty problems in society? Are they aware that people are on the breadline, that the queues in hospitals are growing day by day? Are they aware that several hospitals have closed wards and others have extended their waiting lists, that outpatient services have been curtailed? Are they aware that a substantial section of the community have to carry the burden? Do they not care about these people? Have they no policies to take those people out of the terrible predicament they are in? Do they wish to keep on taxing and squeezing them and taking away whatever benefits they have? There is a cut in medical cards. More people are being taken out of the health services as if those services were overstaffed and as if because we are spending a good deal of money on the health services they no longer need staff. Anyone involved would tell you otherwise.

I quoted figures today from the health boards. Other schemes in the health boards are also affecting under-privileged and deprived people, people suffering hardship. I will be very interested to hear the Minister for Finance explain how he made those decisions and how £26 million out of the billions that are spent could not be found elsewhere. I will be interested to hear what input the Labour Ministers had, how hard they argued for the less well off and what they will do in the next budget to supplement family incomes in a real way.

Will the members of the Labour Party come through the lobby tomorrow night with Fianna Fáil to reject a bad decision by a bad Government and show the Irish people that this House and their party in particular have some credibility? If they do that, the Labour Party will have a future. If not, they will be seen to be falling into the trap of the monetarist, Reaganite, Thatcherite policies which are being pursued.

The Deputy should change the record and use a few more adjectives.

They are true. The only one I could add is Dukesism.

That is a good one.

I am sure the Minister is not proud of that policy. If the Government's policies are not changed this patched together plan will be seen as a plan which has not got the support of the working classes, the representatives of the working classes, or the Labour Party rank and file. Perhaps for a short while it will have the support of the Parliamentary Labour Party. Last week the Minister came in here with a brief. I do not believe he actually read it. He argued about what he did and said in The Way Forward.

I wrote the speech.

There were many good measures in The Way Forward. The policies being pursued by the Minister and particularly the policy on cuts are all designed to create hardship and unemployment. Perhaps the rich are getting richer, but the poor are getting poorer because of the policies being pursued by the Fine Gael Government backed up by Labour members. A Cheann Comhairle, I understand I have 20 minutes.

I am not aware of any departure from Standing Orders and under Standing Orders the Deputy has 40 minutes.

I understood from the Whips before I came in that I had 20 minutes.

I will be calling a Member from the other side of the House when the Deputy sits down.

The Minister should not go back to 1977 or 1982. He should tell the House where he is going from now on and what the national plan, the cuts and the policies they are pursuing are doing for working class people. Where is the light at the end of the tunnel for the people on the poverty line? What are the positive policies for the 200,000 unemployed? What are the policies for the 66,000 young people? What is the policy for the people whose social welfare benefits are now coming into the tax bracket? Children's allowances are to be taxed. Medical cards are being taken from people day by day. The cuts are in the working class areas. There is no development, no progress. There are no new schemes in the working class areas. There is no money for youth development, for sports, for recreation. The Minister should explain to this House how the Coalition Government can continue with such harsh, ruthless, callous policies.

I am amazed that the Opposition are making the case which Deputy Ahern has just been making. I am amazed at the lack of conviction which marked his statement this evening and most of the Opposition statements during our debate last week and the previous week on the national plan.

The Minister should move his amendment.

I move amendment No. a1:

To delete all words after "That" and substitute the following:

"Dáil Éireann, recalling its approval of the National Plan Building on Reality, approves of the steps taken by the Government to reverse the deterioration in the nation's finances and to safeguard the standard of living of the less well-off”.

On a point of order, I understand the Minister is giving out a copy of his speech. If he is giving out a copy of the text of his speech could we ask him to stick with the speech and not, as he did on a previous occasion, give out a speech and not make it in the Dáil?

That is not a point of order. I have no control over the way the Minister makes his speech.

On the point raised by Deputy Haughey, since it is not a point of order, as far as I am aware there is a long-standing tradition in the House that, as a courtesy to the House, if a member of the Government is reading from a prepared script, a copy of that script is distributed to Members. It is also a longstanding tradition, as far as I am aware, that if a note "Check against delivery" appears at the top of the script there is no obligation on the person delivering the script to stick only to that script. It is an assistance to Deputies, but I cannot think that it should be accepted as an absolute and tight constraint on the remarks he might wish to make. Deputy Haughey knows that extremely well, being a noted exponent of the extempore remark even when he has a script in his hand. I will ignore that remark. During the debate on the economic and social plan Building on Reality I stated to this House in the presence of Deputy Ahern that the “Tadhg an dá thrá” syndrome was rampant among the Opposition. I can only say that that syndrome is very visible and is obviously eating away at the body of the Oppostion on the other side of the House.

The Minister has coined a new one. It should be "Tadhg an dá thaobh".

This motion clearly justifies that statement on my part.

The Minister has us a little confused.

We could have a long debate about that. I remind the Opposition of the other old saying "Ní féidir leis an gobadán an dá thrá a fhreastal agus más mian le muintir an Fhreasúra bheith in a ngobadáin tá fáilte rompu". We were accused by the Leader of the Opposition and the spokesman on Finance of having made too little progress in reducing the level of current expenditure. That was fair enough. It was a criticism which was made by a number of independent and reputable economists, people the Opposition pray in aid when they produce their own national plans. We are asked tonight to consider a motion which condemns us for having taken action to reduce current expenditure, action which was not alone considered by the Opposition but was actually canvassed by them at one stage. I know this will irritate Deputy Ahern and perhaps others on the Opposition benches, but I want to refer to a Green Paper called "Development for Full Employment" published in June 1978——

——by the then Government which contained most of the present Front Bench of the Opposition. On page 83 of that document it was stated:

While subsidies are useful in moderating inflationary pressures it is not envisaged that they will become a permanent feature. At the same time it would be wrong to discontinue them abruptly since this would give a noticeable boost to inflation. The more appropriate approach would appear to be to phase out these subsidies over a period of years. The actual timing and scale of any reductions would need to be related to the precise circumstances of the economy at the time.

I threw out that Green Paper when I became Taoiseach.

Not only did Deputy Haughey throw out that Green Paper, but he threw out The Way Forward pretty quickly after he published it.

It is the Chair's business to secure an uninterrupted hearing for each Deputy and he proposes to do his best to do that.

We now know the importance to be attached to statements and documents released by the present Opposition. I wonder how many of their documents they want to throw out so soon after publication. I picked that passage from the Green Paper deliberately because the sentiments in it are ones with which I totally agree. The same thing applies to the statement about subsidies. It is a great pity that the Opposition should choose to turn their backs on one of the few things in their record in recent years that show a little ordinary economic sense. We owe it to the House and the Irish public to discuss specific decisions taken to reduce public expenditure in the context of the overall aims and objectives of the Government's plan.

We have already had a very full and frank, although — in all honesty I must say — not a very constructive debate on the plan. I do not intend to go over all that ground again. Instead, I will concentrate my remarks on the emphasis laid in the plan on the need to correct the imbalance in the public finances. I must emphasise that our determination to do so is linked to the need to free sufficient resources to enable us to fulfil the two central objectives of the plan, firstly, to achieve the maximum possible increase in sustainable employment, and secondly, to halt the rise in taxation, both direct and indirect.

Discussion of economic policy since 1981 has been dominated by the need to correct the imbalance in the public finances. At that time, Government expenditure so far exceeded revenue that an unsustainable explosion of public debt was threatened. This threat has abated because of the decisive and tough corrective action taken by this Government but the fundamental problem still remains. We are spending considerably more on current public services than we can afford, or than the community is willing to pay for through taxation. We must, therefore, reduce expenditure to a level that can be financed on an ongoing long-term basis, by available tax resources. We must also reallocate expenditure to areas where it can make the maximum possible contribution towards employment creation.

Increasing taxation is not a viable solution to this problem. Taxation has been increased very considerably in recent years, and now amounts to about 10 percentage points more of gross national product than in 1977, notwithstanding the increase in GNP since then. Tax levels are commonly perceived to be too high, particularly in the PAYE sector and there is considerable pressure for a reduction in the tax burden. By driving a widening wedge between nominal incomes and take home pay, and by adding to inflation, taxation is also seen as adding to costs in our economy and disimproving our international cost competitiveness which is crucial to a nation as dependent on trade as we are. Further increases in taxation, therefore, would in the Government's judgment be inimical to the provision of much needed employment.

The Government's commitment to halting the rise in the tax burden clearly limits their budgetary options considerably. Many ask why we cannot borrow more and indeed, some members of the Opposition may advocate and have advocated in the last week such a course. Borrowing has always been available as a short-term let-out, but we have learnt the hard way that borrowing is merely deferred taxation. It has to be paid for in the end. We have seen extensive borrowing over the past decade which was used to fund current expenditure and questionable investment projects which did not generate additonal revenue sufficient to service the loans. Consequently the level of national debt has increased relative to GNP and the servicing of that debt diverts more and more of our national resources each year that might otherwise be used, for example, for employment creation or the further development of social services. It is the Government's intention, as set out in the plan, to halt the escalation in debt relative to GNP and to put a stop to the increasing preemption of much-needed resources for debt servicing. The more borrowing school does not provide an answer to the problem that we face at the moment. On the contrary, it would, in fact, serve only to increase further the problem that we will face in future years.

Persistent imbalance in the public finances has also contributed to imbalance in the economy as a whole. Total domestic expenditure has exceeded domestic resources by a wide margin in recent years. The excess is measured by the balance of payments deficit. This exceeded 10 per cent of GNP in each year from 1979 to 1982. It has since been reduced considerably, now to 5 per cent of GNP. However, given the composition of domestic demand it could not be sustained at that level. For this reason also some reduction in public expenditure is warranted.

The inescapable conclusion from this analysis — an analysis which, as I pointed out during the debate on the plan was common in large part to this Government's plan and to the document known as The Way Forward, now apparently being written out of the history books — is that a downward adjustment to public expenditure is essential. There remains the question of how rapid that adjustment should be. It should be sufficient to halt the rise in the debt relative to GNP and so offer the prospect of stopping the increase in the debt service burden at prevailing interest rates and of a reduction in that burden should interest rates fall. Originally, the Government adopted a target of eliminating the current budget deficit by 1987 and so of reducing borrowing to the level required for worthwhile and remunerative capital investment projects. However, the adverse international economic conditions since 1981 have made achievement of that original target much more difficult. With interest rates so high and the economy just coming out of recession, we decided that it was not desirable to reduce public expenditure and raise revenue to the extent required because the deflationary effect of that course could have sapped the vitality of the economy for some years to come.

We believe that the strategy set out in the national plan is the minimum required to halt the deterioration in the public finances. That strategy involves tough decisions. We could have attempted to avoid these by assuming that rapid economic growth could come to our rescue. That, indeed, was the formula adopted by the gentlemen of the Opposition when they were putting forward their last observed plan in October of 1982, the one on which, as I have said, they now turn their backs. To assume that more rapid economic growth would resolve the problem would have been simply to renege on our responsibilities in relation to the Irish electorate.

This Government believe that they should set out their priorities for spending public moneys and to show how these priorities support their broad objectives, particularly on the employment and taxation fronts. This has been done more explicitly than ever before in the recently published national plan. Information is given there on the proposed allocations for all areas of public expenditure for the period of the plan. This shows that this Government take planning seriously. The scale and the composition of public expenditure have a major impact on the economy and we are determined that that impact should be beneficial and lasting.

Deputies on the other side of the House may choose to ignore that background; they try to put up a smokescreen; we hear words like "Thatcherite", "Reaganite', "monetarist" and all the other tired old clichés every time we have an economic debate in this House. They all show one thing, that the Opposition would rather find a cute name, a nice label, for the policies which they had not the guts to implement themselves than come forward with a constructive alternative. Against that real economic background which those gentlemen on the other side themselves analysed in 1982 and came to broadly the same conclusion as we did but had not the guts to carry it through ——

You were brought down the day ——

Against that background we have to look at individual spending decisions like a reduction in the food subsidies which we are discussing here this evening — not that Deputy Ahern spent much time working on them. It is widely accepted on both sides of the House and by objective commentators that Exchequer subsidies on food or other consumer goods which benefit rich and poor alike are a very inefficient and expensive way of effecting a transfer of resources to the less well-off. Under the present subsidy scheme, the taxpayer contributes towards everyone's consumption of bread, butter and milk, without regard to individual or family income. The wealthiest family's purchases of these foods are subsidised at the same rate as those of the poorest families. Such a mechanism is unfair and wasteful of the taxpayer's money. I would think that those who are genuinely concerned about the less well off would wish to see their standard of living protected in a much more direct way and in a less wasteful fashion. On that score long-term social welfare payments have increased in real terms by over 50 per cent since 1972 while short-term payments have seen an increase of over 40 per cent in real terms over the same period. It is through such improvements in the social welfare code that the interests of the less well-off can be best served, rather than through universal subsidies. The social welfare increases in mid-1983 more than matched inflation to mid-1984, and the further increases introduced some weeks prior to the change in food subsidies will be more than adequate to cover the rate of inflation expected to mid-1985, including the impact of the change in subsidies. The impact in the case of working families with low incomes has been offset by the introduction of the family income supplement, entitlement to which has been brought forward to 1 September 1984.

The other justification for food subsidies, that of reducing the general rate of inflation, which had considerable merit when subsidies were introduced in 1975 with inflation at 21 per cent, has far less weight now when inflation is so much lower and still falling. Our inflation rate fell to less than 8 per cent last August, the lowest it has been since November 1978. In fact, the rise in prices in the quarter to August last was the lowest quarterly increase since August 1977. The House should also note that despite the reduction in food subsidies, food prices actually fell slightly in the last quarter. No one can claim then that the trend of food prices has led to a decline in anyone's standard of living. There is no basis for Deputy Ahern's claim that our action on food subsidies caused serious and widespread hardship. I might add that it was with some amazement that I heard Deputy Ahern criticising policies that lead to a reduction in the rate of inflation. Is he now trying to tell the House that those who are least well off and are low paid have no interest in seeing inflation brought down when that is the main problem they have to contend with over recent years? It seems extraordinary that the Opposition speaker——

That is not the point.

Deputy Ahern may not think it is the point. That says very little about his own estimation of the point of the remarks he was making earlier.

I said it was not the point I was making.

The annual savings in expenditure resulting from the subsidy reductions of last August will be of the order of £46 million. The savings for the remainder of this year will be of the order of £16 million, not £26 million as Deputy Ahern kept referring to earlier. This is another example of a certain unpreparedness on the part of the gentlemen on the opposite side to do even the most basic sums when they talk about economic matters. We will not in future have to ask the taxpayer to foot this bill and I think this House would be unwilling to reimpose this burden on his shoulders. No one can argue honestly that we should not have saved this money and hold, at the same time, as Deputy Ahern does, that taxation is too high. Deputy Ahern calls for the restoration of the subsidy cuts. He should accept that he is also calling for higher taxation. Where does he think this higher taxation should be imposed? Are he or any of his colleagues going to come along with a proposal during the rest of this debate to impose an extra £46 million worth of taxation next year? Does Deputy Ahern wish to tell the House and the people that Fianna Fáil do not want to see the burden of taxation stabilised but would rather see it continuing its inexorable upward march?

You had no trouble last year ——

If Fianna Fáil want to say that, let them say it, but let them not come along in this House and hide behind words like "Reaganite", and "Thatcherite" and so on. Let them come out and say what their policies mean. If you want more expenditure there is only one way we can have it. Either we have it in taxation that we pay today or in deferred taxation in the form of extra borrowing.

The Minister has a short memory in the amendment he put forward.

If Deputy Ahern is making a case for more spending let him make a case for more taxation also of the very people about whom he is complaining here tonight.

Leave it the way it was.

In other measures detailed in the plan, the Government's commitment to the socially disadvantaged is crystal clear. Major initiatives are being taken in the provision of employment schemes, with particular emphasis on the most disadvantaged of all in the labour market, the long term unemployed. The new social employment scheme and the alternance scheme will offer new hope to thousands of the long term unemployed. In education, which is getting relative priority under this plan, special funding is being provided for disadvantaged areas.

In the area of social welfare and income maintenance, major strides have been made over the last two decades in introducing and extending schemes — and I say that in compliment to all the Governments we have had in that time — and in substantially raising the living standards of beneficiaries both in real terms and relative to those of the employed population. In recent years. however, budgetary constraints and the need to provide for a sharp increase in the numbers unemployed have reduced considerably the scope for further improvements. The overall budget constraint will continue to operate over the period of the plan. Furthermore, demographic factors will require a significant increase in social welfare expenditure, but this Government stand by the commitment in their programme on coming into office to keep long term social welfare payments in line with inflation and to keep short term unemployment and disability payments in line with take-home pay. In all, the provision for Exchequer-financed social welfare expenditure will increase by 28 per cent by 1987 over the expected 1984 out turn or by over one and a half times the expected growth rate in total public expenditure. That shows clearly the relative priority that we give to the social needs of those people who most need the assistance of the rest of the community.

In the 1984 budget, we relieved taxpayers with incomes below £5,000 per annum, or £96 per week, of the special income levy.

The family income scheme, now being introduced, will provide selective social welfare support for families where the head of the household is an employee with low pay. This counters a weakness which has existed heretofore in the social welfare and tax system.

A new child benefit scheme will be introduced which will unify into a single payment State support towards the cost of rearing children. This will be designed to channel available resources to those most in need. On this scheme Deputy Ahern — perhaps he has not read much about the scheme or listened to what has been said about it — indulged in what would otherwise be pure scare tactics. It is not a scheme designed to save money. It is designed to concentrate available funds on those who most need them. It is not a scheme designed to tax people who do not have a tax liability. It is not a scheme designed to push people at the bottom of the scale out of benefit and Deputy Ahern is well aware that that is not the case. It is a scheme to concentrate, to target the resources that we make available through the taxpayers' contributions in favour of the people who need them most. If Deputy Ahern and Fianna Fáil do not wish to do that let them stand up in the House and say that they are against social justice because that is what it means.

We have found out two things about Fianna Fáil tonight. First, they are for more taxation and, secondly, they are against social justice. If that is what they wish to say let them come out and say it unamibigously. There is no need to talk for 25 minutes, as Deputy Ahern did, rambling around and beating around the bush. If that is what they want to say they should come out and say it straight so that everybody will know where they stand.

The fact that the Government have introduced these new schemes gives the lie to any allegation that we are uncaring in our approach to economic and budgetary policy or that we think only in fundamental economic budgetary fiscal targets. We do not. We have made very substantial efforts in a most difficult time to press ahead with social improvements. The national plan recently published puts forward the minimum steps to halt the deterioration in the public finances and does so in a way that is protective of the less well-off in out community. In addition to that, and in spite of the scarcity of resources, it allows for the continued development of social policy in health, education, social welfare and housing. It is in this context that the reduction in food subsidies must be viewed. The poor and the disadvantaged must be safeguarded and protected in the most effective manner possible. This can, should and will be done through more careful channeling of resources to those genuinely in need rather than by indiscriminate provision of food subsidies to all and sundry.

Deputy Ahern early in his statement suggested that the plan, and the measures in relation to food subsidies, showed a concern by the Government — the tired old refrain from that side of the House — to balance the books and satisfy the economists. I wonder how many people who will benefit from the family income supplement will think that we are introducing that to balance the books and satisfy the economists. How many people who have benefited from the very real commitment of successive Governments over the years to increase the real level of social welfare payments which is what we have done over a long period think that that was done to satisfy economists or balance books? That is not what it is about at all. Our concern is to make sure that out of the resources available the greatest possible amount is used in favour of those who have the greatest need.

The motion tabled by Deputy Ahern, in spite of all that has gone before, in spite of all that his party said in their plan of October 1982, in spite of the debate we had in the last two weeks on the national plan, aims simply to turn back the clock. It would be more honest if his motion said that what Fianna Fáil are proposing is more spending, more taxation and less social equity. That is what Deputies opposite are really saying. I have a feeling that that is not what they want to say, that Deputy Ahern, and many of his colleagues, have real concern for the social disadvantaged and less well-off members of out community. I appeal to them not to let their concern with the buzz words, the smart-Aleck phrases, the Thatcherite business, get in the way of making sensible decisions about public expenditure, sensible and progressive decisions of the kind we have put out in our plan. If they could only do that I suspect that they would be happier in their job. They would know that they were not turning their backs on what they stood for a short few years ago.

The Government will be remembered by the people for many of the decisions they implemented since they came to office in December 1982. Unfortunately, those memories will not be very joyful or happy ones. They will be memories of cruel, crude and insensitive decisions taken by the Government consistently since this miserable group of which the Minister for Finance is one of the main architects assumed power.

I do not feel a bit miserable.

The Minister for Finance told us this evening that we have had an unreal view of economics. I would say that the Minister lacks total reality in relation to any concept he has of ascertaining how much suffering he has caused to our unfortunate people since he took over his Ministerial post. The halving of food subsidies was one of the most appalling decisions taken since the Government assumed office. It launched a new phase in what might well be described as their austerity programme. In their obsession with fiscal rectitude and book-keeping they have ensured that further hardships will be perpetrated on the poorer sections of the community. The Government have made a consistent and concerted attack on the less well-off sections of our community since they assumed office.

The Fine Gael and Labour partners in Government seem to have frightfully short memories of what happened to their budget of January 1981. They seem to have forgotten that it was the reduction in food subsidies and the extension of VAT to clothing and footwear which brought that Coalition down. By their decision to halve the subsidies on butter, bread and milk they are striking hardest at the poor, the unemployed and their families and those who work for low pay. For many families with young children bread, butter and milk account for a sizeable part of their weekly budget and the price increases now imposed will add greatly to the intense financial strains being placed upon their limited resources.

The crude and insensitive way in which the announcement was made, on the eve of the August Bank holiday weekend, by civil servants when the Taoiseach, and his Ministers, were in far-off lands getting a little sun on their backs, clearly emphasises how callous, crude and uncaring the Government are.

That is not true.

Nobody would be surprised at the input of Fine Gael into such a callous decision because that party has been noted since the foundation of the State for their uncaring attitude to the poor and underprivileged. The Right-wingers of Fine Gael care little or nothing for the poor, unemployed and sick. They have always been remembered by the less well-off for cruel decisions they made in the past.

The biggest increase in old age pensions ever was given in the budget I introduced in 1981, a 25 per cent increase in pensions, an increase second to none.

All the Minister need do is ask any old man or woman how the reduction by Fine Gael many years ago of 1/- on the old age pensions affected them and they will tell him what they thought of Fine Gael. The so-called social alliance between Fine Gael and Labour is presenting itself as an alliance in which Labour have been engulfed by the power and insatiable greed of Fine Gael who are inflicting more and more hardships on the most deprived section of the community. In so doing Labour have abandoned the people they pretend to represent. I use the word "pretend" advisedly because Labour are pretending to represent the people who voted them to Dáil Éireann. They have made a mockery of the promises they made prior to the last election and the previous elections. They have abandoned their pre-election promises. They have sold out to Fine Gael for one purpose — the attainment of power and the maintenance of that power. Labour have literally bitten the hand of those who fed them and they are prepared to continue, indefinitely it seems, in an unholy alliance with Fine Gael which has caused a great degree of sadness among those who were foolish enough to vote for them. They are behaving like lambs being led to the slaughter and they have lost any social conscience they may have had.

The decision to halve the food subsidies merely demonstrates the failure of Labour to influence the Reaganite-Thatcherite economic policies of Fine Gael. We all know that milk, butter and bread are the basic foods used by the less well-off sections. We know that to afford them in adequate quantities even before the removal of half the subsidies was proving a very difficult and trying exercise for many of those people. We are all very much aware that these simple basic food items are essential for small children. The insensitivity of the decision cries out for vengence and I have no doubt that the public will have vengence on both Fine Gael and Labour at the next opportunity. Let us hope it will not be too long. How spineless the Labour Party and the Labour Ministers have become. People in the streets in rural towns and villages are asking what has happened to the Labour Party.

The Deputy is going to too many Fianna Fáil meetings.

The birds in the trees are singing it now.

In their 1982 election document entitled Where Labour stands — Jobs, Equality and Justice with Labour they state:

The main Parties propose massive cuts in Public Spending falling especially on Health and Social Services and affecting the weakest in the Community. Labour rejects utterly any policy that makes the poor, the unemployed, the sick, the homeless and the young bear the brunt of corrective measures.

Fine Gael's 1981 election programme states:

Fine Gael will subsidise foodstuffs to the extent of price increases of Bread, Sugar, Butter, Milk, Cheese and Flour will not exceed half the price norm during the anti-inflation programme.

The Programme for Government 1981-86 states:

With a view to holding back price rises during the critical period to March 1983 the Government will, during this period, subsidise key foodstuffs — bread, flour, milk, butter and margarine — to the extent necessary to hold down future price increases in these products to a maximum of 6% a year, with no further increases in these products in 1981, and will impose no taxes on food, gas, coal or electricity — including no increase in the fuel tax on electricity. Additional subsidies arising from this process will be maintained beyond the date of March 1983, linked to continuing pay norms.

How can any member of the Labour Party who has any concern for those whom he or she represents vote in favour of this horrendous decision announced before the August bank holiday weekend? How can a Deputy such as Deputy Bell vote for it? Any Member of the Labour Party who votes for this must have a very loose and elastic conscience in relation to social justice.

I hope Deputy Michael Bell will not forget or renege on the views he expressed in the Sunday Independent of 5 August last. He clearly and unequivocally stated:

The Labour Party is being swamped in the current administration and now is the time to get out. The halving of the food subsidies has been the last straw. It now appears that decisions have just been handed down at Government level. The subsidy cuts are but one of a series of decisions that are being made by the Government which are anti-Labour and anti-trade union. The Labour Party has been left to carry the can and as a result is in total disarray.

I have no doubt that Deputy McLoughlin will agree with every word Deputy Bell said because if they were in disarray then they are in much greater disarray now. Let us hope that the conscience which prompted Deputy Bell to make these statements on 5 August will be as true and as just a conscience when he has the opportunity in this House tomorrow night of expressing his real dissatisfaction with the decision. He will have an opportunity of voting one way or the other and we will carefully scrutinise what he does. I have no doubt that his constituents will do likewise.

We have had in the past far too many incidents of Labour Deputies in particular, and some Fine Gael Deputies, indulging in Jekyll and Hyde politics. When they were here in the Dáil they voted for harsh, insensitive decisions and then raced down the country in their motor cars and cried their way around their constituencies, whinging and whining and shedding crocodile tears, saying they did not have any hand, act or part in these cruel decisions.

I would remind them of a major decision taken in this House shortly after this Government took office. The leader of the Labour Party and then Minister for the Environment, Deputy Spring, introduced legislation which gave county managers uncurtailed powers to impose charges for any service provided at any time.

Because Fianna Fáil left us £97 million short.

The Labour Deputies — it may well be that Deputy McLoughlin was among them — and some Fine Gael TDs shed crocodile tears in their constituencies and tried to convince the public that they had nothing to do with it, that this was some mysterious legislation which suddenly appeared and gave power to county managers to impose extra taxes, for that is what they are, on the unfortunate people. They indulged in deceit in trying to convince their constituents that they had nothing to do with it, yet they made it law while we voted against it.

On page 97 of The Way Forward Fine Fáil proposed these charges themselves and had there not been a change of Government the amount would have been £97 million, not £31 million.

Maybe Deputy McLoughlin will have the courage to vote against this measure tomorrow night. I will admire him if he does so. I will think more of his integrity and honesty in relation to socialism.

He is going to do it. I can see it in his eye.

He will have his opportunity and we will scrutinise his actions with great care.

I will put on a good suit for you tomorrow night.

It will be the last one he will buy from a Dáil salary.

The Government have made much play about their intention to reduce inflation but in halving these subsidies they have added half a percentage point to the CPI. Prior to the removal of half the subsidy the price of milk was 21p per pint; it has now risen to 23p. A pound of butter was 94 pence but it has risen 8 pence to £1.02 and bread has risen from 47 pence to 59 pence. The Government have been stupid and insensitive enough to think that these items which they have put beyond the reach of many people are less important than a bottle of whiskey. That alone indicates that they have lost touch totally with reality. Instead of producing some document that would indicate that they had returned to some semblance of reality they have produced totally unreal policies. I wonder how my good friend, the Minister for Health and Social Welfare, regards all of this. He used to be very concerned about this whole question of food subsidies and he referred to them on many occasions. One of these was 15 June 1978 when he said it was strange that every time a Coalition Government left office food subsidies were abolished. Again, on 15 November 1978, as reported at column 1081 of the Official Report, the Minister for Health said:

Those who benefit from food subsidies are the large families, the poor and the elderly. Proportionately they spend more of their ordinary income on food than any other groups...

He continued:

Food subsidies are proportionately a very small item in the national budget. It will not break any Minister's calculations to continue them, if necessary, for the next 20 years.

Further, he continued:

The previous Government selected three staple items of food, items of basic household expenditure, and decided to limit the subsidies to them .... The fact is the subsidies on the three items I mentioned should be increased in line with inflation.

He wanted the subsidies increased and expressed the view that they should not be cut for the next 20 years. The Minister went on to say:

If the Government meddles stupidly, and unnecessarily, with food subsidies there will be a negative backlash from the trade union movement...

He continued:

There is nothing more likely to infuriate the average industrial worker who is currently paying 85 per cent of total income tax receipts than to find that the price he, his wife and family have to pay every Saturday to the baker for bread and the dairyman for milk, will be substantially increased.

In a debate on a motion calling for the restoration of food subsidies and tabled by Deputy Desmond, he said, as reported at column 168 of the Official Report for 17 October 1979:

... so that the living standards of those most affected by this regressive policy, namely the poor, the elderly, the unemployed, the under-privileged and large families, are not further eroded.

He continued:

I feel very strongly about the question of food subsidies. I think it was a hallmark of the approach of the Government which was socially wrong; it was reflective of a philosophy that I just do not like and could not support and which in the long run will prove to be erroneous.

In the light of these very strong and apparently sincere views, though I am inclined to put inverted commas around the word sincere at this stage, one wonders what has happened to the social conscience of the Minister for Health and Social Welfare. The concern he expressed at that time for the poor, the elderly, the unemployed and so on seems to have long since been forgotten and the Minister seems to be more intent now on inflicting as much suffering and hardship as possible on these people. He seems to be obsessed with inflicting more hardship on the community generally. We all know his attitude to the health service. He is tearing apart a health service that has been excellent. We understand the decision to halve the food subsidies to have been a collective and unanimous decision of the Cabinet. Consequently, we note that the Labour Party have turned their backs on the promises they made to the electorate. There must be many free and easy consciences on the Government side of the House.

Another Deputy who held very strong views on the matter of food subsidies was Deputy Cluskey. He expressed views which apparently he understood to be the views of those whom he represented. Speaking in this House on 13 March 1979 and as reported at column 1344 of the Official Report, Deputy Cluskey said:

Possibly it was one of the most anti-children acts committed by any Government over a long number of years.

He continued:

... there are tens of thousands of children who even before the removal of food subsidies were not adequately fed. This act by this Government will ensure that many more thousands of children will go to bed hungry at night...

I hope that Deputy Cluskey is as concerned about the health and care of young children as he was at that time and that he has not forgotten the poor and the underprivileged. He, too, will have the opportunity tomorrow evening of showing whether he is consistent. We will be carefully taking note of his actions tomorrow evening. No doubt his constituents will be anxious to hear how he votes on this motion.

I expect that some Members of the Labour Party will try to justify the Government decision and will tell us that the family income supplement will compensate the poor and the underprivileged for the halving of food subsidies. We know that that will not be the case, that it is merely another attempt by the Government to deceive not only the House but the public generally. About 32,000 families will benefit from the family income supplement but we know, too, that 460,000 families receive children's allowances. What is supposed to happen to those 430,000 families who will not be receiving any supplement to offset the removal of food subsidies?

Children's allowances are being increased from £12 to £30.

And the Government will take some of that back by way of taxation. Those 430,000 families will not be any better off. Many of them are on the breadline. They are finding it impossible to feed their families adequately because of the policies of the Government, because of the policies of people like the Minister for Finance and of the Minister for Health and Social Welfare and because of the failure of the Minister for Industry, Trade, Commerce and Tourism to provide jobs. Many of the families I am talking of belong to the new poor. They are in addition to those lower-paid workers. I am talking of those halfway in the middle-income group who are not eligible for any of the State benefits. They are struggling to meet their house mortgage repayments. They are struggling to meet hire purchase payments on cars which they need to travel to their work. They are struggling to pay school fees and now they are being asked to pay more for such essential items of food as bread, butter and so on.

What will the family income supplement do for these unfortunate people? What will it do for those unfortunate enough to be unemployed? The unemployed labour army have been and will be ignored by the Government when they distribute the famous family income supplement. I wonder is it because the Minister and the Government no longer have any interest in those who have to avail of social welfare benefits. Is that why he considers them to be ineligible for this supplement? It is becoming increasingly obvious that it may well be and we all know that this is the first phase of the Government's attack on the poor and underprivileged. We know, because they have stated in their magic plan, that they are going to get rid of food subsidies altogether before their term in office ends — that is if they last much longer. If you are unfortunate enough to lose your job or be on the dole, are members of the Government callous enough to believe that you do not deserve to be fed and that you are not worth feeding? Are they trying to perform political euthanasia? That may well be the case.

When Dr. Martin O'Donoghue lost his job he put 200 people out of work.

Where, in the name of God, are all the smoked salmon socialists tonight? At least Deputy McLoughlin had the guts to sit it out; the rest have all gone to their little nests and are afraid to be seen. Where were they when the national plan was being prepared? I can assure the Members opposite that the public will recognise this Government for ever more for what they are and never again will they be deceived by the so-called socialistic gymnastics of the Labour Party or the capitalistic scroogery of Fine Gael.

Deputy McCarthy has kept people busy going through files for him. I notice he was reading from a prepared script and I am not sure if he found all the quotations himself. I should like to quote from another document published by his party in 1978. They said it was not envisaged that food subsidies would become a permanent feature and that the more appropriate approach would appear to be to phase out subsidies over a period of years. That was published in a Green Paper by the party to which the Deputy belongs so we can all play this game of quoting one another against one another but it does not really achieve very much. The quotations made by the Deputy from debates in this House in 1978 and 1979 took place in a completely different situation from that which prevails now. The external debt was nothing at that time compared to what now obtains largely because the Taoiseach who took over the leadership of his party and the country at that time did not have the courage to do what he identified in a very well remembered television address as being necessary to take the country's finances in hands at that time.

I remember seeing that address and I said to myself: "I may not particularly agree with this man but at least he knows what is wrong and I think he is going to do something about it". Whether I agreed with him or not I thought it would be good for the country. He did nothing about the financial problems which he identified. Debts piled up and it is the interest on those debts which is now draining away the money from this country which could be used to continue the payment of food subsidies. Action should have been taken by a responsible government at the time, led by the present leader of the Opposition, followed I presume by Deputy McCarthy, if they had had the courage to do what they knew was necessary. They did not have the courage to do so and I regret to say that they have no right to criticise the consequences now in terms of Government decisions of their own manifest and cowardly failure to tackle the financial problems in 1979 and 1980 when it was plain as a pikestaff to every government in Europe that we were heading into a recession and that if governments did not take action to trim their sails they would find themselves in a situation where they would be effectively deprived of their economic independence.

Practically every other government in Europe in the period 1979 and 1980 changed their financial tack. They abandoned policies of irresponsible borrowing which had characterised governments throughout Europe during the seventies, with one foolish exception, that led by the present leader of the Opposition in this unfortunate country who continued policies, as they do today, which were totally out of date. The one thing that strikes me as relevant about that party is that it is fighting, as Deputy McCarthy proved, the battles of 1932. He even dragged up the old age pension issue of the 1932 budget. Could any party be more out of date, more out of touch with the concerns of the eighties than to have to drag up issues like that to validate their criticisms here?

(Interruptions.)

They are bankrupt, they have no ideas.

We know who is bankrupt.

All they can do is read old debates —"me tooism" and negative, carping criticism that so characterises their approach in debates. They have not got a single constructive idea about how unemployment is to be solved. We hear them bleating every day in here about unemployment but have they come up with any proposals, good, bad or indifferent apart from spending more of the taxpayers' money?

Deputies

We have.

The Government have come up with an enterprise allowance and social employment schemes, new forms of IDA grants and myriad plans to deal with unemployment in so far as governments can solve the problem. We were the first Government to tell the people the truth. Governments do not solve the unemployment problem by themselves. The people can solve the problem with the Government's help. The party opposite have been perpetrating an irresponsible myth: all the Government need to do is spend more money which will solve the problem. It is that irresponsible, paternalistic attitude which urges the spending of more money without bothering about where it is coming from, the attitude pursued by Fianna Fáil, not alone in the fifties but in the seventies also, which is the cause of the country's plight today and has made the removal of food subsidies necessary. If the Fianna Fáil Government had taken the necessary action in 1979 or if they had not engaged in an irresponsible policy of trying to spend themselves out of a boom in 1977 we would not need these economies today. What is happening today is the direct and inexorable consequenses of the cowardly policies of the party opposite during their period of office.

(Interruptions.)

They now have the effrontery to criticise the Government but they have not a single idea in their heads about how to solve the problems. This Government are prepared to do the job and will continue to do so. They have the courage to take whatever decisions are necessary and it is the only political formation who have any ideas about the future. The party opposite are only concerned about the past and re-fighting the Civil War, scoring points about Poppy Day and things like that. That is the level of their arguments.

Debate adjourned.
The Dáil adjourned at 8.30 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Wednesday, 24 October 1984.
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