asked the Minister for the Environment if it is intended to hold local government elections in 1985.
6.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Local Government Elections.
5.
asked the Minister for the Environment when the Government proposals on the reform of local government will be published.
7.
asked the Minister for the Environment if the Government have decided that local authority elections will be held in 1985; and, if so, the date of such elections.
8.
asked the Minister for the Environment whether a Government decision has been made to hold local authority elections in 1985; and if he will make a statement on the matter.
9.
asked the Minister for the Environment if he has proposals under consideration at present to alter the boundaries of local authority electoral areas and to change the number of councillors to be elected in each electoral area; and, if so, if he will give full information regarding such proposals.
10.
asked the Minister for the Environment if he is considering any changes in local authority electoral areas; and the number of councillors to be elected in each local authority.
I propose to take Questions Nos. 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 and 10 together.
It is intended to hold local government elections in 1985. The law requires that the elections must be held in the month of June. In regard to local government reform I would refer the Deputy to the provisions on the subject in the Government's plan, Building on Reality 1985-1987 and in the Minister's statement to the House on the plan on 11 October. The issue is one which may have implications in relation to the areas for which local authority members are elected. The Government intend that reform measures, which are already well advanced, will be implemented speedily and a further statement will be made as soon as possible.
Will the Minister tell us whether the recent newspaper speculation is in accordance with the Minister's thinking on local government reform, both in regard to the equalisation of the number of councillors in county councils and in regard to the four new corporations for the Dublin area and the municipal council? Is this generally in accordance with the Minister's thinking?
A memorandum is before the Government which will be considered next week. When they have considered it a statement will issue which will indicate fully the Government's thinking. Until the Government make a decision I will not comment on press speculation.
Who leaked it?
When it comes before the Dáil, will the proposed local government reforms be in one Bill or in two or three Bills? Can the Minister say whether there will be one Bill for local government structural reform, another dealing with local government finances and a third Bill outlining local government powers?
Without wishing to seem evasive, that is a matter which the Government will decide when they have studied the memoranda on this. The Deputy is aware of Government procedure. The memorandum goes to the Government and——
The Minister does not seem to know whether it is proposed to have one or more Bills.
The matter will be considered by Government next week and I can assure the Deputy that an early statement will be forthcoming thereafter. It will be made public and will give people an opportunity to respond and to comment on the proposals. Normally they would go straight into the formation of a Bill but we believe the Government's thinking should be publicised.
I did not really hear the Minister's reply. Would he confirm that it is the Government's intention to have the proposed changes in local government introduced before the local elections are held next June?
That is the Government's proposal. The aim is to have the changes in being for the proposed elections next year.
Has the Minister given a full reply to Questions Nos. 9 and 10 regarding the boundaries of local electoral areas? Is it true that the Government propose changing the boundaries of all the electoral areas for each local authority and introducing a system whereby one councillor will be elected for every 4,000 of the population? Is it not true that a document on this matter has been shown to the Labour Party within the past few weeks?
There is a memorandum before the Government. The Government will consider all the proposals and make a statement. The Deputy is well aware of the procedure, since he was a member of a Government. I am not in a position to give him information until the Government respond.
The Minister reminds me that I should be aware of these matters. I am well aware of them. Any memorandum prepared for a Cabinet meeting is considered a confidential and secret document of the State and should not be made available either to the press, to Members of the House who are not Cabinet members or to any other individual.
I am not aware of any document having being made available to members of a political party or to press correspondents.
I accept the Minister of State's explanation but it is clear from what has appeared and what we have heard in the House that confidential information in regard to the proposed changes has been made available.
No. There was a statement in the plan about broad proposals in regard to local government reform. That is possibly what the Deputy means.
That is not the question I am putting to the Minister of State. Out of ignorance he personally may not be aware. It is very convenient that he is sent here to answer these questions. I take it that it was his Minister who was responsible for bringing these documents before the Cabinet, not the Minister of State. I doubt if the Minister could give the blasé answer which the Minister of State is giving if I were to ask him whether such a document had not already been made available to members of the Labour Party who are Members of the Oireachtas.
It has not.
I have the opposite information.
My answers were not blasé. I have had an input into these documents and they are before the Government. They will be considered next week and a statement will then be made. It will be a public statement on the broad outline of the proposals for legislation. We would hope for a meaningful response.
The Minister says that after it has been discussed next week the Government will publish a statement which will invite public comment.
I did not say that. I said a statement would be issued by the Government to which people could respond.
The Minister is suggesting the form of a White Paper.
No.
A green paper, a discussions document?
It will be a Government statement.
What will the status be? Will it be inviting comment or not? Will it be inviting comment with a view to improving the proposals?
It will be a Government statement. People may feel free to make observations on it.
They are free already.
When the Government make their decision it will be formulated in a Bill. We are anxious to get this legislation through the House as soon as possible so that we can have everything in place by June next year.
A couple of weeks ago I asked the Taoiseach when the legislation would be introduced. He indicated that it would be introduced early in the next session. I would remind the Taoiseach, rather than the Minister of State, that we will have the budget, a Social Welfare Bill and a Finance Bill in the next session.
That is argument.
Does the Minister seriously suggest that the administrative changes to abolish the city, county and Dún Laoghaire bodies and Balbriggan Town Commissioners, as well as the necessary changes in electoral boundaries, can be made between the end of January and May at the same time as a budget, a Finance Bill and a Social Welfare Bill are going through the House? There are also the other local government reforms which have been promised for the rest of the country. Is he suggesting that such a procedure can be completed by next May, by which time the electoral areas would have to be defined for a local election in June? If not, is he saying that the local government election will be held on the existing basis, the changes to be made later on? I ask for clarification.
It is the Government's aim that this will be through and ready for the election in June.
That is nonsense.
We are working towards that. That is our aim and ambition and nothing will stop us.
It is now almost a year since the 1984 elections were cancelled. Why has it taken so long to bring forward a Bill? If the Bill has not passed through both Houses of the Oireachtas, will the Minister state categorically whether the local elections will take place on the basis of the existing boundaries?
On the question of time, this is major legislation and it has taken time to examine the full aspects of local government reform. We have been talking about the question for may years and we are now in the throes of it. It has taken less than 12 months to get the memoranda together. With regard to whether the legislation is through, that is a hypothetical question. As I indicated, we are working towards having all this work completed by June 1985.
In his reply, did the Minister answer Question No. 7 — if the Government had decided that local elections would be held in 1985?
The Government do not have to make that decision. The decision was to postpone the elections for one year. Therefore elections will automatically be held in June 1985. There is no question of a Government decision to be made.
The question I wanted to ask was whether the Government had actually made the decision that the local elections would be held in 1985. I saw the Taoiseach nodding his head in agreement that they had made the decision. Maybe the Minister of State was not present at the Government meeting, but perhaps the Taoiseach, who was present at that meeting, could tell the House if the Government have decided to hold the local elections?
I agree with the Minister.
It did not require a Government decision, as the Deputy should be aware.
I well understand that. I am seeking to establish for the information of the House the Government's intention with regard to holding local authority elections in 1985. Have the Government made a decision that they shall be held?
No such decision was necessary.
Is the answer yes or no?
The answer is that the motion was to postpone the local elections for one year, and one year only. The only decision the Government would have to take would be if they were to postpone, not to hold, the elections.
Deputy Molloy rose.
Does the memorandum sent to Government contain heads of a Bill or Bills?
No. The memorandum does not contain heads of Bills. It is a normal memorandum——
It is months away——
No, it is not months away. I have indicated that legislation will be before the House early in the next session.
This is obviously a very wide topic which could take up a great deal of time. Even if the rest of Question Time were to be devoted to this matter, it would not be teased out. I am calling Deputy Mac Giolla, Deputy Burke and then I will call the next question.
I rose before Deputy Wilson but I gave way to him.
I have two questions. The first has been asked by a number of Deputies but the Minister did not reply to it. It concerns the local elections to be held in June 1985. I take it that the Minister is telling us that the Government will try to get the legislation through and if it does not work out they will then postpone the elections; no decision has yet been taken to postpone the elections but a decision could be taken before June 1985.
That is an argument.
Is that what the Minister is saying?
I did not say that.
That is more or less what the Minister said.
Second, in regard to possible changes in boundaries that may be necessary, does the Minister intend to make those changes himself or is he going to set up a boundary commission?
That is a separate question.
That will be in the Government statement.
This is a very wide topic and will take up a lot of Dáil time. This subject is taking up a lot of today's Question Time but can you imagine what it will be like when the legislation sees the light of day and comes to this House, which is the point I was making——
A question, please, Deputy.
Is the Minister seriously suggesting that it has taken him 12 months to get a memorandum to Government without the heads of a Bill, that it has never even been on the Government table——
That is not a question.
The Chair promised me one supplementary.
Yes, I promised to allow the Deputy to ask one question, but——
Is the Minister suggesting that such complex legislation can be drafted from mid-November, introduced in this House, and debated and finalised before June? Is he seriously putting his name to that commitment in early November?
I certainly am.
That is grand. I will remind the Minister about this next May.
Is there any significance in the fact that all the Government Members have left the House?
Members are not too strong on the Fianna Fáil side.
I would dispute that.
Labour have had their own briefing.