Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 11 Dec 1984

Vol. 354 No. 10

Order of Business.

The Tánaiste

It is proposed to take Business in the following order: Nos. 6, 7, 8 and 12. Private Members' Business, No. 69, will be taken from 7 p.m. until 8.30 p.m.

By agreement and notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders the proceedings on items 6, 7 and 8 shall be brought to a conclusion not later than 5.30 p.m., 6.30 p.m. and 9 p.m. respectively and the Ministers for Justice, Industry, Trade, Commerce and Tourism and Fisheries and Forestry shall be called on not later than 5.20 p.m., 6.25 p.m. and 8.55 p.m. respectively to conclude the debates. The proceedings on the remaining stages of item 12 shall be brought to a conclusion not later than 11 p.m. by one question which shall be put from the Chair and which shall in relation to amendments include only amendments set down by the Minister for Agriculture.

Also by agreement the Dáil shall sit later than 9 p.m. today and not later than 11.30 p.m. and business shall be interrupted at 11 p.m.

An Ceann Comhairle

Are the arrangements for today's business agreed?

Agreed.

Mr. Haughey

May I ask the Tánaiste if he is in a position to give the House the date of the 1985 budget?

The Tánaiste

No, I am not in a position to give the Deputy that date, but we shall have it within a matter of days — in a week.

Mr. Haughey

Will it be in January?

Minister for Finance (Mr. Dukes)

It will be announced in due course.

(Interruptions.)

Mr. Haughey

Will there be a budget at all?

(Interruptions.)

An Ceann Comhairle

Order, please.

Mr. Haughey

May I raise a matter with the Tánaiste? I would refer him to the fact that there have been developments with regard to two important constitutional offices, namely those of the Chief Justice and of the Attorney General. Would he be in a position to inform the House of what exactly is the position in regard to these two appointments? I am sure he will be aware of the fact——

An Ceann Comhairle

That does not arise on the Order of Business. I am ruling that it does not arise on the Order of Business.

Mr. Haughey

The House as yet has no intimation of the situation with regard to these two appointments. Could the Tánaiste indicate to me whether it is proposed to make any announcement in regard to them in the House——

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Haughey, I am ruling that that does not arise on the Order of Business.

Mr. Haughey

But, a Cheann Comhairle ——

An Ceann Comhairle

You must leave it to the Chair to make that ruling.

Mr. Haughey

I submit that this must be announced.

An Ceann Comhairle

I imagine so.

Mr. Haughey

Surely, then, it is in order for me to ask when, seeing that it must be announced?

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is not in order in making a speech about it.

Mr. Haughey

I am not making a speech, a Cheann Comhairle. I am simply asking a very modest and unassuming question: when does the Tánaiste anticipate that he will be in a position to come before the House and give us some information about these two important offices?

The Tánaiste

I assume that these matters will be brought to the attention of the House in due course.

(Interruptions.)

The Tánaiste

I am sure that the——

An Ceann Comhairle

If Deputies would——

A Deputy

—— behave themselves.

The Tánaiste

A Cheann Comhairle, I was endeavouring to inform the Leader of the Opposition that these matters will be brought to the House as soon as possible, in a matter of days.

Mr. Haughey

The Tánaiste is aware of the fact that the position of the outgoing Chief Justice has been discussed in the newspapers. Surely it would be appropriate ——

An Ceann Comhairle

I am sorry, Deputy. I have no control over the newspapers but I should have control of what is going on here. The Deputy asked a question and an answer has been given and I think it should be left at that.

Mr. Haughey

I want to ask another question, with all due deference.

An Ceann Comhairle

If it is anything similar to the last, it becomes something in the nature of a debate.

Mr. Haughey

It is a very reasonable and logical question.

An Ceann Comhairle

I am sure Deputy Haughey knows ——

Mr. Haughey

Will the Ceann Comhairle listen to my question and then decide whether to allow it or not?

An Ceann Comhairle

Nobody knows better than Deputy Haughey that I am forced to concede that if I were to listen to everything that every Deputy wanted to say I would have a one-sided debate and there would be nothing I could do about it. I am not going to fall for that little ——

Mr. Haughey

I will tell you my question and then you can decide.

An Ceann Comhairle

Will the Deputy put it in writing?

A Deputy

Will we go through your Office?

Mr. Haughey

I want to ask the Tánaiste what is the position in regard to the present Chief Justice of this country? Has he, in fact, resigned his office? Has he taken up a new appointment in the European Court? If so, is that new appointment for a period of ten months, namely, the period that has to expire of Andreas Ó Cuiv's office? These are very straightforward questions.

The Tánaiste

To the best of my knowledge, the answer to both Deputy Haughey's questions is in the negative.

An Ceann Comhairle

Item No. 6.

Mr. Haughey

I take it that the Chief Justice has not resigned his appointment? Has he indicated to the Government that he intends to resign?

Mr. Dukes

That is a different question.

An Ceann Comhairle

I am not going to allow this debate.

Mr. G. Collins

When are we going to talk about it?

An Ceann Comhairle

You will have to find a procedure in accordance with Standing Orders. I am sorry.

Mr. G. Collins

You will have this House destroyed.

Mr. Power

Sorry, a Cheann Comhairle——

An Ceann Comhairle

I am calling Item No. 6.

Mr. Haughey

I submit to you that it is going beyond the bounds of all reason that the Opposition and this House cannot be informed as to the status of the Chief Justice, the third most important constitutional person in this country. The Tánaiste wants to answer.

An Ceann Comhairle

An answer has been given in reply to Deputy Haughey asking certain questions. He was told that an announcement would be made in a matter of days.

Mr. Haughey

Surely I am entitled to an elucidation of newspaper reports to the effect that the Chief Justice has indicated his intention to resign from his exalted office and to take up another appointment? Are you ruling that I cannot ask that question?

An Ceann Comhairle

I am ruling that if I were to allow everything that appears in the newspapers to be debated in the House, I would have a very funny House, indeed.

Mr. Haughey

This is not a debate. I am seeking information.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy has asked a question——

Mr. Haughey

On a very important matter.

An Ceann Comhairle

A reply has been given and I am not allowing any development.

Mr. Haughey

A reply has not been given. Then, may I turn to another matter?

An Ceann Comhairle

Yes.

Mr. Haughey

As obviously, the constitutional situation in this country is of no importance to your good self, or to this House, may I ask——

A Deputy

Withdraw that disgraceful remark.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Haughey, you may not realise what you have said. I am a constitutional officer of this House, No. 5. I think, in the present Constitution. The Deputy has just said that the constitutional position in this country appears to be no concern of the Chair.

Mr. Haughey

Of this House.

An Ceann Comhairle

No, you said of me, of the Chair.

Mr. Haughey

I withdraw such an implication.

An Ceann Comhairle

You should withdraw it.

Mr. Haughey

Let me say — and I am sorry if I did not make it clear — that it seemed from your ruling that the position of the third most important constitutional person of this country is not of sufficient importance, in your view, to have it announced in this House.

An Ceann Comhairle

That is not so, Deputy. I deprecate in the strongest possible terms that a new formula is creeping in for withdrawing disorderly remarks in this House which is not in fact a withdrawal but repeating the same thing in another way. It is not worthy of Members of the House and should be stopped forthwith. I ask Deputy Haughey to please give an unqualified withdrawal.

Mr. Haughey

In so far as it seems to indicate that the position of constitutional persons was of no importance to your good self, of course, I unhesitatingly withdraw that. What I was trying to say was that it seemed to me from your ruling that you do not regard the present position of the third most important constitutional person as being of sufficient importance to have information given to us in this House. I accept your ruling.

An Ceann Comhairle

It is a reflection on the Chair.

Mr. Haughey

It is a reflection on your ruling.

An Ceann Comhairle

It is a reflection on the Chair. I rule that it does not arise now in the House in this way at this time. That is as clear as it can be.

Mr. Haughey

I have no choice but to accept your ruling. I deplore it but I accept it. In view of the indications that have been given publicly that the Land Commission is about to be abolished and that certain members of the staff are about to be made redundant, will the Tánaiste give some indication of when this matter will be brought before the House and the position in regard to this very important historical institution of the State clarified?

An Ceann Comhairle

Is the Deputy speaking about a Bill?

Mr. Haughey

I assume I am.

An Ceann Comhairle

Is it about proposed legislation?

Mr. Haughey

I am asking about the declared intention to abolish the Land Commission and make large numbers of staff redundant.

The Tánaiste

It was stated in the national plan that the Land Commission would be abolished. Legislation will be brought forward in 1985 to bring this into effect.

Mr. Haughey

Is the Tánaiste aware that in the meantime, pending this legislation, indications have been given to large numbers of staff that they are to be made redundant during the month of December? Is that the position?

The Tánaiste

I am sorry I cannot be helpful to the Deputy. He asked a question about whether indications were given to the staff. I am not aware of them.

Mr. Leyden

I deplore the treatment meted out to the people in the Land Commission. They have received redundancy notices irrespective of what the Tánaiste says. They are being made redundant from 28 December this year.

An Ceann Comhairle

That does not arise on the Order of Business.

Mr. Leyden

It is an absolute disgrace. These men are being removed from their jobs coming up to Christmas.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is being disorderly.

Mr. Leyden

It is disgraceful. The Tánaiste is not aware that redundancy notices have been issued. They have been issued and he should be aware of that particularly when he is acting for the Taoiseach. If he does not know it he is a disgrace to his office.

An Ceann Comhairle

I am calling Deputy Gregory.

Mr. Farrelly

Shout louder.

Mr. Leyden

The Deputy had better start shouting louder in County Meath because his shouting will soon be finished there.

Mr. Gregory-Independent

As the Chair disallowed my Private Notice Question to the Minister for Justice regarding the source of the bogus document issued to the national newspapers regarding the LPG cavern storage project in Dublin Bay, I ask permission to raise this matter on the Adjournment.

An Ceann Comhairle

I will communicate with the Deputy.

Mr. Gregory-Independent

The Chair said that his reason for disallowing the question was because the matter was not brought to the notice of the Garda.

An Ceann Comhairle

I cannot have my reasons questioned here.

Mr. Gregory-Independent

I find it difficult to understand how the Garda were not aware of something which made headlines in the newspapers at the weekend.

Mr. G. Birmingham

The people of Clontarf are pleased.

Mr. Noonan

(Limerick West): Since the Chair disallowed my Private Notice Question and since the Tánaiste is not aware of what is happening in the Land Commission, I wish to raise this matter on the Adjournment.

An Ceann Comhairle

I will communicate with the Deputy.

Mr. R. Burke

Now that the Minister for the Environment is present, can he give us the present state of the negotiations between his Department and the National Association of Tenants Organisations about the Government's decision to increase the income from local authority rents by 20 per cent——

An Ceann Comhairle

That does not arise on the Order of Business.

Mr. R. Burke

May I have a reply to that? They will also take into account overtime and other matters.

An Ceann Comhairle

Order, please.

Mr. R. Burke

They are supposed to go from the beginning of January.

(Interruptions.)

An Ceann Comhairle

I must have order. If Deputies are determined not to allow the business of the House to proceed, I will have no alternative but to adjourn the House.

Mr. R. Burke

It is not a question of interfering with the business of the House but of getting information about what is happening to thousands of people.

Mr. P. Gallagher

I wish to raise on the Adjournment the repercussions from last Friday's strike when millions of pounds were lost to the economy.

An Ceann Comhairle

This matter was raised last week.

Mr. P. Gallagher

Will the Chair allow me to finish?

An Ceann Comhairle

No. I have ruled that matter does not arise.

Mr. P. Gallagher

Millions of pounds were lost to the economy. The Border was left unmanned despite assurances from the Minister for Finance in this House. He cast aspersions on me when I said that the Garda would not co-operate.

An Ceann Comhairle

That matter does not arise on the Order of Business.

Mr. P. Gallagher

The loss of millions of pounds is not important to the Chair.

An Ceann Comhairle

I have already said that matter does not arise on the Order of Business. If I do not have order I will have no option but to adjourn the House.

Mr. Tunney

In view of the increasing attacks on young and old people especially in Dublin city and in view of the fact that I received notification from Dublin Corporation telling me——

An Ceann Comhairle

Has the Deputy a request to make on a specific matter?

Mr. Tunney

Standing Orders require me to advise you of that which I wish to raise on the Adjournment. I am doing so.

An Ceann Comhairle

They do not require the Deputy to make a speech.

Mr. Tunney

I have received letters from Dublin Corporation telling me they are unable to provide public lighting in my constituency.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy can make a case if he gets permission to have this matter discussed on the Adjournment.

Mr. Tunney

That is all I want to ask of you. I wish to raise this matter on the Adjournment.

An Ceann Comhairle

I will communicate with the Deputy. Almost 20 minutes have been spent raising matter after matter, a great percentage of which are not in order.

Mr. R. Burke

They are important matters.

An Ceann Comhairle

There seem to be about ten other matters. Does the House want the business of the House to proceed?

Mr. R. Burke

This is the business of the country.

Mr. Haughey

It is the business of the House.

An Ceann Comhairle

I direct Deputy Haughey to a speech he made in this House two years ago on 14 December when he spoke about obeying the Chair. I have had nothing in recent times but obstruction and it is not good enough.

Mr. Haughey

I merely pointed out that what we are doing is the business of the House.

An Ceann Comhairle

It is not the business of the House.

Mr. Haughey

It is. It is perfectly in order to raise matters on the Adjournment.

Mr. Kitt

Can the Tánaiste say if legislation will be introduced concerning the release of staff in the Land Commission to assess land for farm tax?

The Tánaiste

To the best of my knowledge it will be introduced in early 1985.

Mr. Kitt

What is the position about the 40,000 acres in the Land Commission?

An Ceann Comhairle

That is not in order.

Mr. Kitt

I wish to raise this matter on the Adjournment.

An Ceann Comhairle

I will communicate with the Deputy.

Mr. S. Brennan

I wish to raise on the Adjournment the recent failure by the Minister for the Environment to sanction the southern cross route at the request of Dublin County Council. The subject matter is a letter from the Minister——

An Ceann Comhairle

I will communicate with the Deputy.

Mr. L. Fitzgerald

Will the Tánaiste explain to the House why the Minister for Industry, Trade, Commerce and Tourism refused to meet the PMPS depositors protection group? Does he accept that the attitude of the Government to this group is nothing short of disgraceful?

An Ceann Comhairle

It does not arise on the Order of Business.

Mr. Wilson

There are 11 students for which the Minister for Communications had responsibility when he liquidated Irish Shipping. Those are 11 students of marine science at the Regional Technical College in Cork. I brought this to the Chair's attention last week. Is the Minister for Communications going to do anything about them?

An Ceann Comhairle

It does not arise on the Order of Business.

Mr. Leyden

In relation to your frustrating job, Sir, you may get some relief in 1985. I hope you take that in good humour.

An Ceann Comhairle

I have got to the stage now——

Mr. Leyden

I wish to raise on the Adjournment, in view of the widespread attacks on the elderly in rural areas, that the Minister for Communications will instruct Bord Telecom Éireann to give priority to the installation of telephones for the elderly in rural areas.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Chair will communicate with Deputy Leyden.

Mr. Kenny

Could I ask for some clarification on the Adjournment?

An Ceann Comhairle

You cannot.

Mr. Kenny

Then I could raise on the the Adjournment a question in relation to tender documentation for Castlebar general hospital?

An Ceann Comhairle

The Chair will communicate with Deputy Kenny.

A Deputy

What was that? We did not hear it.

Mr. O'Toole

Castlebar General Hospital.

Mr. Haughey

I am very interested in what happens in Castlebar.