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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 12 Dec 1984

Vol. 354 No. 11

State Financial Transactions (Special Provisions) Bill, 1984: Committee Stage (Resumed) and Final Stages.

Debate resumed on amendment No. 1:
Before section 2 to insert the following new section:—
2. (1) Unless previously terminated under subsection (2) of this section, this Act shall continue in force until 31st March, 1985 and shall then expire, unless the Oireachtas otherwise determines.
(2) The Minister may by order declare that this Act shall expire on a specified date, being earlier than 31st March, 1985 and in that case this Act shall expire accordingly.
[Minister for Finance.]

I regret that due to unreasonable pressure of time an important question like that raised by Deputy Walsh had to be dealt with in this way. I also regret that because of the Government's failure to present this kind of legislation earlier we have to rush through the debate and do less than justice to the presentation of the case and the issues involved.

It is clear from what the Minister acknowledged before we adjourned that this unprecedented situation — and I insist on calling it that — arises because of the direct intervention of the Minister for Finance in trying to ensure that the Central Bank would not operate independently as required under the Currency Act, 1971. The Minister has acknowledged — and one must give marks for honesty — that he has been in direct contact with the Central Bank and as a consequence of that direct contact we find ourselves in this extraordinary and unacceptable situation, where this House is being asked to pass emergency legislation which in our opinion should be of limited duration, for that and other reasons. We are not satisfied to give the Minister, who is the direct cause of this extraordinary situation, unusual and exceptional powers under this Bill which when passed into law will be a permanent feature of our legislation. Having regard to the circumstances we could not in all conscience give the Minister the power he seeks under section 2 which we are trying to amend. Under the Bill as drafted it all depends on when the Minister is satisfied and on special circumstances of a temporary nature. I do not have the time in 30 minutes to go into all the gaps in that type of general provision but under this Bill the Minister can take unto himself these exceptional and unprecedented powers. For instance, he would be able to delegate any institution to act. That we cannot accept.

Everybody wants a return to the normal role discharged by the Central Bank, which is a very special and crucial role in monetary control and regulations, and the Minister would be the last person to deny that. It is because we want a return to that normality that we are not prepared to legislate permanently for a situation which would suggest that on any occasion the Minister sees fit, and on his own terms, he can implement this type of legislation. He might say that neither he nor his successor would do this frivolously, but the chances are that in the near future the Minister's successor will be faced with this situation rather than the Minister. Nevertheless, I do not want to see any Minister taking unto himself the type of authority in this Bill.

The Minister went on to say that these powers are outside the normal function of the Minister for Finance of the day. There is no point in pretending otherwise. They are not to be found in the normal discharge of his duty, although he may see it necessary now because of circumstances he has created by intervening directly in what would have been normal consultation with the staff associations and the management of the Central Bank. This Bill will merely ensure that the national accounting system will not collapse. Payments in and out of the Exchequer on a global basis will be pursued. That is the only effective exercise which will result from this. One could say the national accounting system must be protected from total collapse and to that extent we are in agreement.

Unfortunately we do not have time to discuss the matter in detail but it is clear that the Minister cannot, in the circumstances of the ineffectiveness of the Central Bank due to this dispute, comply with the provisions of the 1886 Act. This Bill is clearly an attempt to get around that. The Minister said that this is not interfering with the statutory function of the Central Bank——

Apart from the operation of the Exchequer account.

The Minister's original statement to the House was far too brief. There was no explanation of each section beyond a brief synopsis. I will outline some of these implications. While this situation persists, there is no way in which anything other than global transactions can be recorded or dealt with. There is no facility for detailed control, monitoring or regulation of the national accounts in the manner in which the Central Bank discharges its responsibilities statutorily. I challenge the Minister to tell me that as long as this condition persists there is such a facility to regulate in detail and to check and control as is normally the case. We are now putting up with and accepting global transactions in and out of the account. The Minister said that in a sense the Central Bank are operating normally outside the Exchequer accounting area. There is no detailed control effective through the Central Bank and the Minister knows this. There is no point in trying to fool the public in this regard. For as long as this situation persists transactions through the Central Bank will be minimal. The Minister is asking us to treat this as being a condition which we should sanction under permanent legislation. That cannot be acceptable. We should be able to argue this for days to test our capacity to put the questions and to test the Minister's capacity to reply.

It would be no trouble at all.

Within the next few days payment is due on the 46,000 dividends on records which normally are held by the Central Bank on the 6 per cent Exchequer stock 1982-85. On December 15 the 9 per cent Exchequer stock of 1987 will fall due and also the 7 per cent National Loan of 1987-92. Through December and January there will be a list of matters in respect of which there can be no detailed control or check at present.

They cannot be made.

That is the point. The Minister said that the other statutory functions of the Central Bank are not affected, but the truth is that the Central Bank cannot discharge their main function as long as this condition persists. There is no point in pretending otherwise. I do not think we have time to press both our amendments but we certainly want to press this one, that this Bill will have only the minimum possible period. Three months up to the end of March should be adequate. If it is necessary to continue it, let the Government come back here and ask the House to pass legislation for a limited period of three months and no longer. This is not the kind of legislation which we can leave on the Statute Book secula saeculorum on the basis that a computer facility might break down some time.

I made my arguments this morning in my brief Second Stage speech but I hope the Minister will at least mention that I asked him to consider this amendment. I cannot see why he should not allow this legislation to lapse at the end of March and, if necessary, to re-enact it later on. The Minister mentioned a breakdown in the computer facility. Obviously nobody told him that Government accounts are not on computer but are manual.

That is not true. The Deputy is misinformed.

Is the Minister saying that Government accounts handled by the Central Bank are on computer?

What is the Minister saying? Why should the Minister need legislation for a computer facility to deal with something that is not on a computer? If the workers are not there to deal manually with a certain matter you do not need a computer to do it. The accounts are manual so the computer could not break down.

I gave an example in my speech of another kind of eventuality in which measures of this kind might be necessary. I was not in anyway referring to any part of the Central Bank's operations either on computer or manually. It was just to illustrate the problem and difficulty to which Deputy O'Kennedy referred a few minutes ago regarding the payment of interest on dividends and redemptions. That operation is all on computer, so that is one part of the bank's operation in which there might be a difficulty. There may also be others.

This legislation is to deal with the Exchequer accounts. The Minister has already admitted that in the other matters for which the Central Bank are responsible nothing has happened. There is no staff in there. This legislation is being brought in to protect the Government accounts. The Minister said he needed a computer, that this legislation might be needed in the future because the computer might break down.

That is a specious agrument.

The Minister misled us. Government accounts and this legislation have nothing to do with the computer, because there is none.

The Deputy is relying on a totally incorrect statement.

I am not going to become involved in arguments, but there is no computer. The Minister also said that many of the functions carried on by the Central Bank on a day to day basis are delegated for reasons of convenience. The Central Bank, as I understood it, are independent of Government. They were set up as a separate entity so that certain controls could be effected. If there were a wild and mad Government, these controls would be available. This Bill clearly would take away these functions. If these functions are there as a matter of convenience, this applies everywhere else in the world. I do not see why the Minister made that point.

It is commonly known that there is not sufficient money available to make the double week payment to social welfare recipients. That should be paid this week, I understand. It probably will be easier to appeal to the staff of the Central Bank than to the Government to try to cooperate in that matter.

I asked a question before lunch to which the Minister kindly replied. However, I should like to put on the record of the House that the Central Bank have been consulted and that the Government and the board have been fully involved in the drafting of this legislation. My colleague has made quite clear that the surveillance of the Central Bank and the various banking supervision schemes and monetary credit policies are not being carried out at the moment. These sections are not in operation and this Bill does not cover those matters. Finally, it would be far easier for everybody if the Minister's colleague, the Minister for the Public Service, could take part in this debate. I thank the Minister for admitting that there has been intervention by the Government. That is why we are here today discussing this Bill. If there were negotiations at a meaningful level involving the Ministers for the Public Service and for Labour, that would be a great help. We have co-operated all day but not once did these two Ministers or the Ministers of State come into the House to listen to what the Minister for Finance had to say or to what we have had to say in return.

Hear, hear.

Obviously, they are not too concerned. It is a hard handed, unreasonable attitude which is getting nobody anywhere. At this, our last opportunity of debating this Bill which is being unfairly rushed through, with even more limited notice than that given to other less important Bills, the Ministers have refused to deal with a very serious matter in any way other than by legislation. It would have been much easier — and still is — to talk to the ASTMS, whose staff members are responsible people who look after the interests of this State very adequately, rather than go through with this type of legislation. These people are not irresponsible and they have proved that by helping out the Department of Social Welfare who are now desperately trying to get £30 million to pay social welfare recipients. The Minister for the Public Service must show equal responsibility and talk with these people very quickly.

We all want to get this matter cleared up. I am sure the Minister does not want the country to be in this extraordinary position. Agreements were made, for example, with regard to the Trusteee Savings Banks and the associated banks. Why should the Government take this unique intervention position with regard to the Central Bank staff when they see all the consequences which we now have to tolerate? What about the superisory role of the Central Bank over the associated banks? Who is going to supervise them? This is because the Government chose in this instance to use a very blunt instrument indeed. They are not even being consistent. Staff at some levels in the Central Bank are, apparently, being allowed to go through the normal channels and have been allowed increases in line with the normal conciliation procedures. The whole basis of our monetary control, internal and external, is totally out of line.

Would the Minister clear up a few points for me on Committee Stage? I understood him to say that he had no access to the register of payments because it was in the Central Bank. I take it that was because there were no staff there, that the Minister could not, as it were, get his hands on the documents. Assuming that is the reason, who then specifically is carrying out the functions that the Minister said this morning were not interfered with, such as the monitoring of the key indices of the banks, the watching of the liquidity ratios, dealing with the other statutory functions of the bank, currency regulation and so on, supply and distribution of currency? For the same reason as the Minister cannot get at the register in the Central Bank, I assume that the Central Bank cannot carry on these functions. Without naming the actual individual but getting as close as possible to it, could the Minister say who specifically is carrying out these functions? I responded to a challenge from Deputy Kelly to make a specific suggestion as to how we might handle this situation.

I am warning the Deputies that I shall be putting the omnibus question at 4 p.m.

Does the Ceann Comhairle want to put it now, before 4 p.m.?

The Chair has no control over that.

In response to a challenge by Deputy Kelly, I put forward a proposal suggesting that section 18 of the 1976 Industrial Relations Act be used because it contains the phrase "in the national interest". It says that the Labour Court may intervene in the national interest. This is clearly the case now and I ask the Minister if his Government feel that they can ask the Labour Court to use section 18 of the 1976 Act to help in resolving the difficulties. I shall be interested in the Minister's reply to those two specific questions.

With regard to the dividends payable, would the Minister agree to the Central Bank making payment of the interest on the payments which are not able to be made on 1 January 1985.

The Deputies cannot have it both ways.

It is regrettable, but this is because of the shortage of time.

An order was made this morning. If Deputies want to talk, I can only put one question.

I have heard so much in this House about giving up.

I did not quite get Deputy Connolly's last question. In respect of the payment of interest on dividends——

——the register of those entitled is computerised. The staff who run the computer are among those who are on strike and it is for that reason that those payments cannot be made.

Will that interest be paid?

The Bill provides for interest to be paid at a rate which I will determine. Indeed, it is the subject of the second amendment which has been put forward by the Opposition. We would appear to have another Second Stage debate here. I appreciate the difficulties of the Deputies opposite. It is alleged that I am preventing the Central Bank from acting independently; I am not. I am not interfering in this Bill with any of the statutory functions of that bank. The Bill affects none of those functions, apart from the operation of the Exchequer account. I had some doubts in my mind, listening to the Deputies opposite, whether they were arguing for the scope of the Bill to be widened considerably or narrowed. As I said this morning, there was a direct contact with the Central Bank, as indeed with all the other State or semi-State agencies.

Is the Central Bank a State agency in that sense?

In relation to pay policy, it is in that sense a State agency.

So much for the statutory powers. This is new.

It was set up by the State under a statute and is definitely part of the public sector.

The Minister had better change the existing legislation.

As the Deputies on the other side of the House probably know, at one time the staff of the Central Bank were very keen to be considered as being part of the public service. There was a time when it was advantageous.

When was that?

In accordance with the order made by the Dáil this morning I must put the following questions: State Financial Transactions (Special Provisions) Bill, 1984; I am putting the question that the Bill is hereby agreed to in Committee and is reported to the House without amendment and the Fourth Stage is hereby completed and the Bill is hereby passed. Na Teachtaí ar thaobh an rún sin abraidís "tá" agus na Teachtaí ina gcoinne abraidís "níl".

Níl, on the basis that our amendment before the House is guillotined.

The Deputy cannot speak at this stage.

We are asking to have the Bill for a three month duration.

The Chair is standing.

This debate is a farce.

I think the motion is carried.

Deputies

Votáil.

The Dáil divided: Tá, 75; Níl, 65.

  • Allen, Bernard.
  • Barnes, Monica.
  • Barrett, Seán.
  • Barry, Myra.
  • Begley, Michael.
  • Bell, Michael.
  • Bermingham, Joe.
  • Boland, John.
  • Bruton, John.
  • Bruton, Richard.
  • Carey, Donal.
  • Conlon, John F.
  • Connaughton, Paul.
  • Coogan, Fintan.
  • Cooney, Patrick Mark.
  • Cosgrave, Liam T.
  • Cosgrave, Michael Joe.
  • Coveney, Hugh. Creed, Donal.
  • Crotty, Kieran.
  • Crowley, Frank.
  • D'Arcy, Michael.
  • Deasy, Martin Austin.
  • Desmond, Barry.
  • Desmond, Eileen.
  • Donnellan, John.
  • Dowling, Dick.
  • Doyle, Avril.
  • Doyle, Joe.
  • Dukes, Alan.
  • Durkan, Bernard J.
  • Enright, Thomas W.
  • Farrelly, John V.
  • Fennell, Nuala.
  • FitzGerald, Garret.
  • Flaherty, Mary.
  • Flanagan, Oliver J.
  • Glenn, Alice.
  • Griffin, Brendan.
  • Harte, Patrick D.
  • Hegarty, Paddy.
  • Hussey, Gemma.
  • Kavanagh, Liam.
  • Keating, Michael.
  • Kelly, John.
  • Kenny, Enda.
  • L'Estrange, Gerry.
  • McGahon, Brendan.
  • McGinley, Dinny.
  • McLoughlin, Frank.
  • Manning, Maurice.
  • Mitchell, Gay.
  • Molony, David.
  • Moynihan, Michael.
  • Naughten, Liam.
  • Nealon, Ted.
  • Noonan, Michael.
  • (Limerick East)
  • O'Brien, Fergus.
  • O'Brien, Willie.
  • O'Leary, Michael.
  • O'Sullivan, Toddy.
  • O'Toole, Paddy.
  • Owen, Nora.
  • Pattison, Séamus.
  • Prendergast, Frank.
  • Ryan, John.
  • Shatter, Alan.
  • Sheehan, Patrick Joseph.
  • Skelly, Liam.
  • Spring, Dick.
  • Taylor, Mervyn.
  • Taylor-Quinn, Madeline.
  • Timmins, Godfrey.
  • Treacy, Seán.
  • Yates, Ivan.

Níl

  • Ahern, Bertie.
  • Ahern, Michael.
  • Aylward, Liam.
  • Barrett, Michael.
  • Blaney, Neil Terence.
  • Brady, Gerard.
  • Brady, Vincent.
  • Brennan, Mattie.
  • Brennan, Paudge.
  • Brennan, Séamus.
  • Briscoe, Ben.
  • Burke, Raphael P.
  • Byrne, Hugh.
  • Byrne, Seán.
  • Calleary, Seán.
  • Collins, Gerard.
  • Conaghan, Hugh.
  • Connolly, Ger.
  • Coughlan, Cathal Seán.
  • Cowen, Brian.
  • Daly, Brendan.
  • De Rossa, Proinsias.
  • Doherty, Seán.
  • Fahey, Francis.
  • Fahey, Jackie.
  • Faulkner, Pádraig.
  • Fitzgerald, Liam Joseph.
  • Foley, Denis.
  • Gallagher, Denis.
  • Gallagher, Pat Cope.
  • Geoghegan-Quinn, Máire.
  • Harney, Mary.
  • Haughey, Charles J.
  • Hilliard, Colm.
  • Hyland, Liam.
  • Kirk, Séamus.
  • Kitt, Michael.
  • Lenihan, Brian.
  • Leonard, Jimmy.
  • Leonard, Tom.
  • Leyden, Terry.
  • McCarthy, Seán.
  • McCreevy, Charlie.
  • McEllistrim, Tom.
  • Mac Giolla, Tomás.
  • Molloy, Robert.
  • Morley, P. J.
  • Moynihan, Donal.
  • Nolan, M.J.
  • Noonan, Michael J.
  • (Limerick West)
  • O'Connell, John.
  • O'Dea, William.
  • O'Hanlon, Rory.
  • O'Kennedy, Michael.
  • Ormonde, Donal.
  • Power, Paddy.
  • Reynolds, Albert.
  • Treacy, Noel.
  • Tunney, Jim.
  • Wallace, Dan.
  • Walsh, Joe.
  • Walsh, Seán.
  • Wilson, John P.
  • Woods, Michael.
  • Wyse, Pearse.
Tellers: Tá, Deputies Barrett(Dún Laoghaire) and Taylor; Níl, Deputies V. Brady and Barrett (Dublin North-West).
Question declared carried.

This Bill is certified a Money Bill in accordance with Article 22 of the Constitution.

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