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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 23 Jan 1985

Vol. 355 No. 2

Nurses Bill, 1984: Committee Stage (Resumed).

Question again proposed: "That section 31 stand part of the Bill".

Before the sos, I was giving some of the reasons for opposing this section. Indeed, when the Minister of State was introducing this Bill he told us that the Minister was very much influenced by the working party on general nursing in 1980. It is significant that in this instance he is not taking the advice of that working party who made no reference to giving power to the board or the Minister to register persons ancillary to nursing in a register for nurses.

The grade of State Enrolled Nurse was very common in the United Kingdom but, even there, it has been phased out. I am sure the Minister has had many representations from the nurses' organisations in this country who are particularly concerned about this section. The Minister may tell us that section 57 of the Nurses Act, 1950, gave somewhat similar powers to An Bord Altranais but I do not believe that that section was ever used to register persons who were not fully qualified nurses. I appeal to the Minister to withdraw that section from the Bill. It would be in the interests of the public and of the nurses to do so because it is fundamental to any profession that only persons with the required qualifications should be on a register. In this case we believe that a nurses' register should only contain the names of persons who are fully qualified nurses.

I am not sure that I see the trend of Deputy O'Hanlon's opposition to this section. It may be that the nursing profession are not willing to see the creation of a kind of second class category of nurses. If that is what the Deputy means it would correspond with advice which I have received from the profession. I have a couple of independent points I should like to put to the Minister regarding this section. What is the object of the register? What is the register intended to certify? What is exclusion from the register intended to indicate? Does the Minister intend that the board should exercise the same kind of control, criteria and discipline in admitting people to this ancillary register as it will exercise in regard to the main register? I know the Minister's advisers are hard pressed, in particular in the drafting office but, with respect, it seems to be a rather slapdash piece of drafting that we should get this application by analogy to a whole new range of people of provisions of a very detailed kind applicable to the nursing profession itself. Does the Minister really intend — if we are going to apply the provisions applicable to nurses properly so called — that the ancillary register should be updated every now and then, that there should be a fee charged for including people in it, that there should be a discretion on the board to exclude people from it and that the Fitness to Practise Committee should adjudicate on the fitness of someone like a physiotherapist, a theatre technician or an orderly? I assume these are categories which might be in the ancillary class. It seems to be a somewhat slapdash way of doing it and is likely to be unsatisfactory because of the doubt which surrounds it. I wonder what the object is and whether the Minister will get a result from this section proportionate not so much to the opposition to it on the other side of the House but proportionate to the doubt and uncertainty which I suspect the section will create.

I fully support this amendment. Those of us who visit hospitals regularly recognise the exceptional care and attention given by nurses to those who are ill and the same can be said of nurses in other areas of the health services. That is as it should be. We all agree that we have a duty to ensure that the highest quality of nursing care must be available to those who are ill. We are equally agreed that this level of care can only be provided by fully qualified nurses. For the nursing profession, this is a matter of fundamental importance and I am surprised that the Minister proposes to take action which would dilute this level of care. The Minister may point to a list of services which could be carried out by people who are not qualified nurses. However, if we accept anything less than the highest quality of training for those who look after old and infirm people we are on a slippery slope which will end up in our having different types of nursing training, as has already been mentioned by Deputy O'Hanlon, such as they had in the UK which were found wanting and were phased out. It would be a retrograde step for this section to be left in the Bill.

When I asked the Minister earlier today what value nurses would get from this Bill and from paying fees to register each year he said it would enhance the whole nursing profession. That may be so but this section goes in the opposite direction. On the purely practical side, it is difficult to understand why at a time when large numbers of fully qualified nurses are unemployed the Minister should suggest accepting people who are not fully qualified. There are many well educated boys and girls who are eager to train as nurses but who cannot get an opportunity to do so. Until relatively recently nurses who qualified in training schools were assured of employment. However, this is no longer the case. We have reached a stage where relatively few young people who qualify as nurses are retained in the hospital in which they trained nor can they get employment in other hospitals.

While I would object at any time to the introduction of people who are not fully qualified, it is incredible that the Minister should attempt to include them at present. I ask him to reconsider the position and accept the amendment put forward by Deputy O'Hanlon.

I am calling Deputy Mac Giolla. I am sorry, Deputy, I should have called you last. I did not realise your name was to the amendment.

I was a bit late arriving so it was as well to give me time to get my breath. There is great unanimity about this section. Everyone clearly says this section should be deleted. That is what was said by the national nursing council of the Irish Transport and General Workers' Union and the association of nurse teachers. They said they would strongly oppose any provision which would make possible the registration of those in ancillary professions on the grounds that it would detract from and dilute the uniqueness and professionalism of nursing.

The Irish Nurses' Organisation proposed that this section be deleted. They stated that this was a Nurses Bill and should be confined to nurses. There are 2,500 registered nurses unemployed. The Eastern Health Board took a serious view of this. There was a special meeting of the board in June 1981 to consider the Bill. They decided to set up a working party to report on section 31. The working party met on four occasions and they reported to the Eastern Health Board last November. They stated precisely the same thing: section 31 should be deleted.

In their report they state that this section should be totally deleted and that a health services ancillary personnel council be established by the Minister and that it be jointly representative of the Department of Health, health boards and the associated professional regulatory body. In other words they put forward a proposal under which people ancillary to nursing would be organised separately. By that they mean separately from this Bill.

They pointed out that nursing is a profession and in common with all professions has prescribed standards of experience, training and qualification to achieve inclusion on a professional register. They said that the net effect of section 31 was to introduce an intermediate grade for people who had not reached the required standard of entry to the nursing profession and to make An Bord Altranais responsible for maintaining a register of such persons. They said this was in breach of the fundamental principle of all professions, namely that there is only one standard qualification. The committee, therefore, recommended that section 31 be deleted. They recognised there was a problem for the Minister in terms of the various occupations which are ancillary to nursing. They listed them.

In the Bill the phrase "ancillary to nursing" is used but no list is given. The working party gave examples of ancillary personnel comprising a number of grades such as attendants, orderlies, dental assistants, SENs and nursery nurses totalling nationally 6,000 people approximately compared with 20,000 registered nurses. They referred to the fact that there is another group which should also be organised professionally and they felt it was time for a statutory professional licensing and regulatory body to be introduced for all the associated professional groups in health care such as social workers, occupational therapists, psychologists, speech therapists, radiographers, physiotherapists and so on. They spoke to the Minister for Health about this and he told them in February 1983 that the position was that his Department drew up draft proposals for legislation to provide for registration of certain paramedical professions not provided for under existing legislation. They were also told that an outline of these proposals had been sent to the professions concerned for their views. Having considered the working party report the Eastern Health Board felt that the Nurses Bill provided for the registration of nurses and should be confined to that. The Minister has responsibility to organise other ancillary professions in the nursing and health care areas but these are not the responsibility of An Bord Altranais, the board established under this Bill. It takes from the professionalism of this body to give it responsibility for dealing with various other groups such as attendants, orderlies, dental assistants, SENs, nursery nurses and so on. Perhaps the Minister does not intend such groups when he says "ancillary to nursing".

On Second Stage I asked him about this and about what the section meant. I asked what was a calling ancillary to nursing. I asked had they been listed by him and if he meant it as a general phrase or if he would tell us whom he was talking about. To date the Minister has given no indication of what he was talking about. In the explanatory memorandum it is stated that it is envisaged that this provision could be invoked in the event of the development of some new profession or new calling in the future. Has the Minister some idea about developing some new profession or calling for which he will use the provisions of section 31? He should explain to us what the purpose of the section is and also what is the purpose of the explanatory memorandum sentence referred to. Why is it considered necessary to include in a Bill dealing with the nursing profession provision for the keeping of a register of people who are not nurses? A Nurses Bill should deal only with nurses. It should reflect that profession.

Section 31 is one of the most contentious in the Bill. I was chairman of the Eastern Health Board at the time the working party referred to by Deputy Mac Giolla carried out their task. I can claim responsibility for putting the working party into being. I compliment the Deputy on the adequate way in which he has outlined the findings of that working party. Their report was presented to a meeting of the health board and was adopted unanimously. We are gravely concerned about the proposal in this section. As anyone who has listened to the deliberations of the House today will realise, the nursing profession is a highly organised body of learning. Those who become entitled to be part of that profession will have undergone long years of study and great scrutiny. It is incongruous to suggest, as is being suggested in the Bill, that these people in regard to the setting up of a council to administer the profession should be expected to take on board also ancillary nursing services. Deputy Mac Giolla has outlined the various ancillary services all of which play a very important role in the care of those who must avail of them. One complements another, but we are speaking about a Nurses Bill and we are placing great stress on the responsibility of the board. It is not practical to expect them, in addition to administering their own profession, to assume responsibility for ancillary bodies. I do not see how such an arrangement could work.

As Deputy Mac Giolla has mentioned, there are about 20,000 nurses in the country. The Eastern Health Board are the largest employer of nurses but there are also 6,000 persons engaged in ancillary services. The board will have enough to do to cater for their own members. I, too, should like the Minister to explain his difficulty regarding different degrees of nursing. I sympathise with him on that difficulty but it can be resolved only if those who wish to be accepted for registration as nurses attain the required standard.

There is a need for the licensing of other professional groups in the nursing area such as physiotherapists, occupational and speech therapists. Such groups should have an organisation to administer to their needs. I join with other speakers in requesting that the Minister delete section 31. Its provisions could not work.

In common with Members on both sides of the House, I am totally opposed to this section and I support fully our amendment. I am at a loss to understand the Minister wishing to include such a section in the Nurses Bill. It is only right that we should ask what is the object of providing for the keeping of another register. We are talking about the registration of fully qualified nurses and it is with that in mind that we have set various requirements in respect of training, examinations and qualifications.

Perhaps it is my suspicious nature that leads me to speculate whether the bringing in of these ancillary groups is an effort to avail of a form of cheap labour. We all know the problems the health boards are experiencing because of inadequate financing. Is it possible that the Minister hopes to achieve additional savings in this area by the inclusion in the Bill of these ancillary groups?

As Deputy Mac Giolla as well as some Members of this side of the House have pointed out, there are about 2,550 registered nurses out of work. A report in the media during the week revealed that of 50 people who qualified recently in, I think, the Mater Hospital, only six had succeeded in gaining employment. In these circumstances the Minister must realise that there is no need for the ancillary groups. We have more than enough qualified nurses to fulfil our requirements for many years to come. I am glad to note that colleagues on all sides of the House are united in this matter and I trust that when we put our amendment to a vote that unity will stand the test.

I rise mainly to add to the words of wisdom that have been expressed in relation to this section. There are many sections in the Bill which I regard as objectionable but, in addition to being objectionable, this section must have been motivated by some sinister reasons. It is a reflection on the high standard of training of nurses. Of all the various professions which require high standards, I doubt if there is another that requires the extremely high standard that applies to the nursing profession. This recognition has been accorded them not alone by the highest medical authorities here but by the World Health Organisation who have recognised the excellence of service performed by Irish nurses throughout the world.

Is this an effort to reduce the standards of efficiency and excellence of our nurses? The nursing profession in the UK are moving away from that kind of development. Our nurses pass examinations which are not easy. Our nurses undergo training in medicine and the dispensation of drugs as rigorous as that of doctors. Year after year the nursing examinations become more difficult. Qualified nurses are obliged to take on refresher courses to keep them up to date on the modern techniques of administering drugs and medicines and treating patients. Everybody interested in the nursing profession would like to know the purpose of this register. What does it mean? What is it likely to mean in view of the fact that there are 2,500 nurses unemployed? Many of them are working as waitresses, despite all their training. Most of the UK hospitals are staffed by Irish nurses. A lot of State finances have gone into the training of nurses many of whom are emigrating and the Department of Health are compiling a register which will not be in the interests of the nursing profession.

Everybody has spoken against section 31 and one Deputy spoke very strongly against it. Can the Minister give a justifiable reason as to why it is necessary to establish this register? When this register is established will there be a complete list of persons who will be readily available to take up nursing posts? If a register were compiled in relation to teachers, barristers, solicitors, economists and other professions there would be an immediate uproar. This will be a register listing people who will not have passed examinations in medicine. Will the Minister put these people in charge of dangerously sick people? Will it mean that we will eventually have a Green Shield section of the nursing profession who can be called upon to work at a cheap rate in order that the health boards and the Department may economise at the expense of the public?

This Bill should uphold the dignity of the nursing profession. Who will be eligible to go on this register? There was once a lady called Biddy Early who had a knowledge of all forms of cures. Would the late Biddy Early with her knowledge of medicines qualify for inclusion in this register? Who could deny her the right to be registered? Will we have a register of 1985 Biddy Earlys? Will we have a register of medical quacks?

Is is not correct to say that there is some degree of comparison between nurses and fully qualified Red Cross personnel who are not nurses. They have not done the nurses' examinations. They are not fully qualified in nursing but can put on a bandage. They can look after a wound or stop the free flow of blood. They have certain knowledge in relation to care of the ill and the disabled and can deal with emergencies. May I take it that if section 31 is passed we will have in this register everybody who has a knowledge of Red Cross activities?

In Civil Defence there are certain ladies fully trained to meet emergencies in the event of a disaster. Will these people be entitled to be registered? As regards the quack who has all manner of medical remedies and excels in his own form of nursing, but who has not received training, would he be entitled to register?

I object to section 31 because it will take from the high standard of nursing and there is no need for a register of what I would describe as the modern Biddy Earlys. There should be no question of keeping a register of those willing to work for low wages in hospitals or elsewhere caring for the sick. Have we not a duty first to our sick people, those deprived of the great blessing of good health? Are we going to make provision for people with fewer qualifications to look after those who are in hospital?

The motives behind section 31 of this Bill have never been explained to me. The only indication is that all connected with health in the nursing profession, all grades, will be registered. Every Member of this House sees something seriously wrong with this section. I put it to the House that there are sinister and evil motives behind the inclusion of such a section and the establishment of a register to include the names of people who may be called upon to perform nursing duties but are not fully qualified. Why should a person become fully qualified in the nursing profession when she can be registered without being fully qualified and obtain employment in our hospitals, our health boards and with those charged with caring for the sick?

This is a very serious matter. Hospital services throughout the world can boast, with a high degree of credibility, about their standard of nursing. Are we going to be one of the first to make it more difficult for our nurses to become fully qualified to the highest possible medical standards? Will those on this register be employed where it is thought wise or prudent by those in authority who have no responsibility to health boards, no mandate from the people and no right to be put in charge of the sick?

I join with others in asking the Minister to delete this section. Everybody except himself is opposed to it. He should be aware of the reasons why he should be opposed to this section. A Nurses Bill must always be in the interest of the nursing profession, but section 31 is not in that interest. Everyone, particularly senior medical people in our hospitals, agrees that Ireland can produce the best and most fully qualified nurses. Should we not be careful to preserve that record, to ensure that it is carried on by those who are coming into the profession and will keep up the high standard which our Irish nurses in the four corners of the world have attained with credit and distinction? Their record has brought admiration for all our nurse training institutions. We should be slow to take any steps which would lower the high standards of Irish nursing. Section 31 is not helpful in maintaining these extreme standards of efficiency, care, courtesy and medical knowledge. No reason or justification has been given for the inclusion of section 31.

I am sure that the nurses' organisations will be reading this debate. In the event of the establishment of such a register, which may not happen today or tomorrow, I want to warn the nurses' organisations that it will prove to be disastrous for the future qualification of nurses to the very high standard of their profession. In this country we want the best possible care of our sick, to have the best trained people possible. We do not want a group either of Green Shield nurses or of pretending Biddy Earlys to take over our hospital wards. The establishment of such a register will not lead to the production of the best possible type of nurse and nursing care in our hospitals in general and emergency wards.

I ask the Minister to consider the plea being made by all sides inside and outside this House, indeed by everybody who has had a comment to make on this Bill. I have yet to see one word of praise for the inclusion of section 31 and this most suspicious register about to be established. Irish nurses will regret the day such a register was compiled. Because of the united opposition to this section outside the House I add my voice in the interest of preservation of the perfection of Irish nurses, their standards and skills and I ask that it be deleted. It can serve no purpose, no good, and there is no comparison between any ancillary profession and that of the real profession of nursing. One cannot have two grades or degrees. One must have one highly satisfactory, fully qualified standard. One cannot have a Green Shield list from which to draw in the event of having to acquire cheap labour.

Is there any trade union in Ireland with a list of tradesmen who would also have a list of those who are supposed to be tradesmen who will be called in the event of tradesmen not being available? I think of the Stonemasons' and Bricklayers' Union in past days in Cuffe Street when only a fully qualified stonemason or bricklayer was allowed go on a list for a union card. I can think of the Amalgamated Society of Woodworkers in respect of which indentures had to be produced and investigation of completion of apprenticeship recorded before one's name could be inscribed. I doubt if the Incorporated Law Society would compile a list or register of legal quacks that administer hob law — and, God knows, this country has its fair share of them too. Then there is the Painters' Union. Would they grant membership of their union to those who can take up a paint brush and use it at will? This is a most serious matter. We expect the obligations of all professions, trades and trade unions to be fulfilled. But in regard to the nursing profession there is to be a register compiled of people akin to nurses but who will never possess the same full qualifications.

On reconsideration I ask that this section be deleted from the Bill. I have been longer in this House than any other Member present and I have not seen a similar section in any other Bill that passed through this House. As was customary on the part of Deputies many years ago, I have carried out certain research before making my speech in order to ascertain if I could find a similar section dealing with any profession or trade. With all the help and assistance available to me, together with my fair share of commonsense and intelligence in relation to procedure in this House, I have not found anything similar to section 31. Why do the Department of Health not tell us what they mean? What is at the back of this section? What is hidden in this? What is the purpose of the register? If there is silence on this there must be some strange reason therefor. I believe that section 31 is not in the interests of the production of the best most highly qualified nurses. I foresee difficulties. I see no need for such a register and for that reason I ask that this section be deleted.

I shall be brief. I want to add my voice to those of others who have spoken on section 31. Unlike the previous speaker, I do not see anything sinister or subversive in the intentions of the Minister in putting this forward. Perhaps it was put forward in the mistaken idea of achieving egalitarianism of some kind or another, or that the Minister felt this was the proper thing to do. Lest it be construed that what I am saying is elitist of nature, from my experience as a teacher I would have to echo what Deputy O.J. Flanagan has said. If one is a member of a profession there are standards to be adhered to and there should be only one examination or test of competence laid down for somebody wanting to enter that profession. That is the reason I feel the Minister should delete section 31. I say that from a practical point of view. The only way in which the public at large and the medical and nursing professions will have confidence in the nurses in our hospitals will be through their full awareness that each man or woman has passed one examination, one assessment or test of competence so that there are not within the one hospital nurses with varying degrees of qualifications.

If the Minister really thinks about it he will agree that that would constitute quite an impossible situation and one which would give rise to many anomalies. I am thinking of patients going into any hospital being upset or worried about their state of health, or their families being worried about them, and then it being put into their mind that whatever person is in charge of them is not what would be called a fully qualified or registered nurse in the real meaning of the term. I do not want to see that happen. I do not see anything sinister in what the Minister is proposing or any such imputation but I do say it constitutes a very unwise move. I fail to see the reason for it. Professionally speaking, there is no rationale at all for having degrees of competency, of examinations for various types of nurses. There should be one examination only, a national standard, an applicant passes and is then deemed competent to go into any hospital ward and nurse.

I am particularly pleased that Deputy Flanagan said there was united opposition to this section. He said he added his voice — and I presume his vote — to the proposal to delete this section. There was such passion and conviction in what he said that I know he means to carry it through to the final stage, which is the vote. Bearing that in mind and the wisdom of the various Deputies who have spoken on the issue, in a practical sense there can be room for one national examination only and one national register, one degree of competence in the nursing profession. I ask the Minister to please delete this section.

I want to disassociate myself from some of the remarks made by Deputy Flanagan. I recognise that he is the most senior Member here. I have not spoken on this section of the Bill and I do not know who gave him the authority to imply that every Deputy in this House is in favour of deleting this section. I object to that and I want to disassociate myself from what he said.

Like other Deputies I am well aware of the amount of opposition to this section. Perhaps I am reading it in a totally different light from everybody else but, rather than anything sinister or damaging or dangerous to the nursing profession, I saw in it a certain element of protection for those members of the nursing profession who are fully qualified nurses. If we have a register of fully qualified nurses and a register of people who are not fully qualified nurses, employers seeking nurses or nursing aides or attendants, or whatever we want to call them, will have in black and white those who are qualified and will not have to take somebody's word. I see that as a protection for qualified nurses. They will be on register A and the others will be on register B, or whatever annotation we want to give to those registers. That is my reading of the section.

My understanding is that there is provision for such a register in the existing legislation. Perhaps the Minister would clarify that in his reply. I understood that, although the register was never set up, the provision was there. This is not a sinister section. It is not something which the Minister put into this Bill for some terrible reason. The existence of a register does not give anyone the right to a job. In his lengthy submission on this section Deputy Flanagan implied that, once your name was on the register, you would take the job of another nurse. He more or less said that once the register was set up the management of the hospitals had no choice, that they could not hold interviews and employ the people they wanted, that automatically because the register was there they would have to take on some unqualified quack or some Nurse Biddy Early or an equivalent type person. That is utter nonsense.

It is not the same as the panel which exists for national school teachers who find themselves without a job and can be offered a job at the top of the panel. That is not what this register is, or if it is, I should like the Minister to clarify it. That is not implied in the Bill. This is not a way in which hospitals can get cheap labour. The personnel who employ hospital staff are not so irresponsible that, once the register is set up, they will start to replace all their fully qualified nurses with half qualified quacks or people who did a six weeks Red Cross course and know how to put on a Figure 8 bandage.

If I thought the hospitals would resort to that in order to get cheap labour, I would despair for the future of our hospital system. I do not have that kind of lack of confidence in our hospital management. They will continue to employ the best qualified people to look after the sick. It is a red herring to suggest that because there will be a register there will be a serious threat to the very high quality of nursing we have in Ireland. I find it impossible to understand how people can see the section in that way.

The section has attracted a great deal of opposition and a feeling of threat. I said to the nurses who lobbied me about the section that as a non-nursing person I seemed to have more confidence in the proposed board than the nursing profession. The great percentage of the membership of the board will be made up of nurses. I get a little worried when I hear all this opposition. It is more or less implied that nurses do not trust the nurses who will be on the board. The section says that the board may with the consent of the Minister register names in a register maintained for that purpose. They are not obliged to set it up. If the Minister requests them to do it they are obliged to, but I am quite sure the Minister will take into account the worries and the fears which have been expressed.

If the board when established do not feel it is appropriate to have this register, they do not have to set it up. To allay some of the fears the Minister might consider leaving out this section for the moment on the understanding that, if there is still a problem about unqualified people passing themselves off as qualified people, the register will be set up. That would be a protection for the nurses of Ireland.

I find it difficult to understand why the section is seen as such a terrible threat. Deputy Flanagan raised the dilemma in which I find myself in trying to interpret what this Bill is about. Great play has been made in the hand written and photocopied literature we all got from various organisations about the fact that this is a Nurses Bill and should deal only with things applicable to nurses. In the explanatory memorandum with the Bill it is stated that it is a Bill to provide for a nursing board which shall provide for the registration, control and education of nurses. It did not stop there. It went on to say, "and to provide for other matters relating to the practice of nursing and the persons engaged in such practice".

In his submission Deputy Flanagan showed the dilemma. "Nursing" is a very broad term. If people are taking away bed pans or doing some general work, that is part of nursing. It was suggested that the register would provide cheap labour for the hospitals and that a low standard of nursing would be accepted. If people refer to what they are doing as a low standard of nursing this Bill is the place to talk about it because it is supposed to provide for other matters relating to the practice of nursing.

I will be interested to hear the Minister's answer to the question about the provision already being in existence. For some reason it has not brought about all the aggro, upset and concern in the nursing profession. Was it that because it was not implemented, everyone thought it would die away? I should like the Minister to refute the suggestion that once the register was set up it would force hospital management automatically to employ people on the register. They will still have the freedom to employ whomever they wish to employ at whatever standard they wish.

I regret that I was not here for the earlier contributions on this section. I gather from what has been said that most of the areas of concern have been dealt with. I should like to put my concern in relation to this section to the Minister for the purpose of receiving his reassurance. I was interested in the concept to which Deputy Owen referred. Like many other Deputies I was approached by large groups of nurses involved in nursing schools and practising in rural areas. There is no doubt they are very concerned about this section.

I am merely putting to the Minister questions that have been put to me by members of the profession on this section, and if there is substance in the fears of nurses I would urge the Minister, by legislative amendment or otherwise to allay those fears. Deputy Owens has told us that this exists in the 1950 Act and that it has not led to a diminution of the status of nurses. Deputy Flanagan suggested that this is a mechanism by which to introduce cheap labour to hospitals. I would not have that fear. Lower grade nurses have been tried in Britain and the US but both countries have turned back.

However, nurses have been displaying a genuine instinctive reaction to the section, mainly out of self interest and particularly to ensure that nursing jobs will not be reduced in times of recession. There is concern also about the maintenance of nursing standards but, as I have said, they have returned to the previous position in other countries and decided that nurses required extra training.

Quite often, due to lack of full training, accidents have occurred and mistakes in regard to medical care. A careful line must be drawn between the lesser trained nurses and those who are fully trained. In the major registration section of the Bill there is provision for a minimum of three years training. I am sure that nurses would be satisfied if we made the separation quite clear. This section will be administered by the nurses board who will decide as to the desirability of some other form of registration. I hope the Minister will allay the fears that exist in regard to maintenance of nursing standards.

As Deputies have put it, the section has created dismay in the minds of nurses. I have had approaches from many to try to establish the thinking behind the section. When I first read the section I did not read in it any of the charges made by Deputy Flanagan or Members opposite. However, the Minister must convince the House that the section will not create two types of registered nurse. I agree with Deputy Flanagan that no other profession would accept that. Nobody wants to see a register of what could be seen to be second class nurses. This is the Nurses Bill and it would be dangerous to attempt to do that.

I hope the Minister will explain what he has in mind and unless I am satisfied that what he has in mind is in the best intersts of the profession and general health I seriously will have to consider putting down an amendment to this section.

I never cease to be amazed at the ability of Members to disturb themselves about nothing in particular. We get great enjoyment out of this, particularly Deputy Flanagan who voted for this section in the 1950 Nurses Act when he was a member of the Government side. All I have done here is to tidy things up, and we should therefore rid ourselves of those hyper-suspicions. All I have done is to redraft in a tidier fashion section 57 of the 1950 Act which went through the House then without objection. That provision has existed for 35 years and there has not been a whimper about the evil intent behind that section by any Deputy, including Deputy Flanagan. Not a nurse in the country has lost a night's sleep over section 57 of the 1950 Act, which I will read:

(1) Where the Minister is satisfied that any profession or calling is ancillary to nursing, he may by order provide that the register of nurses may be extended to the profession or calling and may by such order require the Board to appoint a committee in respect of the profession or calling.

(2) Where an order is made under this section—

(a) the Board may by rules maintain a division of the register in respect of the profession or calling to which the order relates, and

(b) the provisions of this Part of this Act shall apply in relation to such profession or calling with such (if any) modifications as may be specified in such rules.

That has been reiterated more tidily in a form recommended by the parliamentary draftsman. That is all that is in it. If a separate register is to be kept under the auspices of An Bord Altranais that decision would be taken by the nursing profession, not by the Minister of the day. It must be remembered that of the 30 members on An Bord Altranais 19 will be nurses. It will be up to the board to make the decision. The nursing profession may wish to have ancillary grades registered on a separate register. They may want to have in their area of activity ancillary grades who will be properly regulated, properly controlled and properly supervised working to nurses. There is nothing unusual in that. It is no more unusual than having the large number of para-medical staff who work to members of the medical profession and there is not a whimper from that profession about the dilution, diminution or destruction of the beloved medical profession. They are all happy as a lark working away in the national interest, and, understandably, in their own interest also. I do not know what the objections are about. I am introducing an enabling provision and no more. I have great regard for Deputy O'Hanlon — it may be considered the kiss of death to say so — and for his preoccupation with health issues.

The kiss of death for which of us?

There has been no opposition, for example, from the Fianna Fáil Party to auxiliary dental workers. The Dentists Bill, 1984, sailed through the Seanad and it contained a similar type of enabling provision. There was no objection to Second Stage of that Bill here. Section 53 of that Bill states:

The Council may, with the consent of the Minister, make a scheme for establishing classes of auxiliary dental workers who may undertake such class or classes of dental work as shall be specified by the Council notwithstanding that the doing of such work would constitute the practice of dentistry within the meaning of this Act.

That is much more upfront than one would dare to presume in this area.

I know that the working party were not particularly preoccupied about continuing with the section but it is true to say that they held that the position should be monitored constantly, especially in the light of the extended role of nurses into various specialist clinical areas. We are aware of such areas as the chemotherapy, haemodialysis, coronary care and the general intravenous area. Specialities may develop in those areas and, logically separate registers may be opened.

I hope the legislation will last to the year 2000 and there will be free movement of labour within the Community during that time. Separate registers may be required during that period and I am including a provision for that. It does not constitute a precedent, a threat or an attack on the employment conditions of nurses. There are 19,800 qualified nurses here and 6,500 student nurses. That represents about 9,000 more than we had ten years ago. That should be borne in mind before screaming about unemployment. There is a limit to the number of nurses who can be employed here and the nursing profession, and others, acknowledge that by their observations on nurse training centres.

I should like to refute the suggestion that there is any cheap labour in Irish hospitals or the health services. As a member of the Council of Europe between 1973 and 1981 I visited hospitals in all European countries and I learned that Irish medical staff are among the highest paid in the world, apart from being the best qualified in many respects. There is no cheap labour, not even in terms of paramedical or ancillary staffs here. In excess of £700 million is paid out annually in salaries.

It is full of cheap labour.'

Basic rates and average earnings in the health services are two different things. If I made the data available to the Deputy I have no doubt he would be surprised.

I know the Minister can twist anything but it is still cheap labour.

There is no intention to encourage a system of cheap labour. There is a view in the Department that the provision under discussion will prove useful in the years ahead. I am not proposing that such registration should be established but it seems to be prudent to provide a mechanism to enable An Bord Altranais to deal with the developments as they may arise. I have been asked why this issue will be dealt with by the registration body for nurses and not through some other registration body. There is the simple argument that it is reasonable to suppose that the persons concerned would work under the supervision and direction of nurses. The best form of any separate register would be under the general aegis of An Bord Altranais. It is a desirable provision and a reasonable power to devolve on the board.

If I may turn the argument on its head, I believe it is in the national interest and in the interest of the nursing profession that control be kept in this area rather than have it slip out into a non-registered and very diffused area of employment.

It is my intention to have all professions in the health service properly and professionally registered and run by themselves before I cease my term of office as Minister. Currently a separate Bill is being drafted to provide separate registration professional provisions for paramedical grades such as physiotherapists, occupational therapists, speech therapists, chiropodists and social workers to give them the statutory right of formal registration and authority to run their own professional bodies. I have been trying to set up a new Dental Council and that Bill has received a reasonable welcome, although there are contentious issues in it.

For the first time since 1950 I am trying to provide a modern Bord Altranais, which the staff of that board and the nursing profession welcome. In that framework I want to provide for as many contingencies as possible which could arise in the years ahead. Since ancillary staff to the nursing profession could be employed at some future date, it follows that the board should have a real involvement in the registration of such staff, even if they are registered separately. That is a reasonable and logical relationship. That is all that is in this section.

I am grateful to Deputies for raising this issue but I can assure Deputy Flanagan that his misgivings are unfounded. He has been, if I may so in the politest of terms, ballyragging me around the country in relation to sections 31 and 52. It is the old story of people rushing in and coming to conclusions and then I have to work backwards to convince people of the bona fides of our intention. I made the point that this section has been in existence since 1950. Deputy Flanagan has a long and distinguished career in this House and that legislation was enacted while he was a Member of this House. There has been no objection to this section in the existing nursing legislation and I do not recall any objections about it from the professions over the years.

If Deputies want to fight battles on this Bill I would urge that the ground be better chosen. I will look at this section between now and Report Stage if Deputies wish. I do not intend to withdraw the section but I will look at it again to ensure that any evil designs Deputies think I might have will not bear fruit but that proper legislative controls will be provided. I can assure Deputies that their objections are being carefully noted and I will not take any precipitous action in this matter. In any event, An Board Altranais will be running the show when the board have been elected. I will not be running the show because I want to devolve responsibility on the profession. I have no doubt that this will dispel a number of preconceptions held by members of this profession and that the profession will embrace this legislation quite happily. This applies to all who will come in contact with this legislation, including Ministers of the day.

Having listened to the Minister's comments on the statements made by Members on all sides, I can see no reason why we should diminish our opposition to this section. The Minister said that section 31 seemed to be controversial in other legislation as well as in this Bill and referred to the Posts and Telecommunications Act. He could also have referred to the Health Act, section 21 of which is also controversial.

On a number of occasions the Minister said An Bord Altranais would decide whether ancillary grades would be registered on the nursing register but the section clearly states that the Minister requests that a register will be maintained for this purpose. The Minister will have the power to direct the board to register persons in ancillary grades.

Two Government Deputies suggested that the Minister had a sinister motive and that the same allegation had been made on this side. I want to dissociate every Fianna Fáil Deputy from such allegation. I would not, nor would any Deputy on this side of the House, suggest that the Minister has anything sinister in mind. We are concerned about this legislation. The last Nursing Act has been law for 34 years and if this Bill lasts as long we will be into the next century. We must ensure that the legislation we pass is in the best interests of the general public and the nurses and that it will be something of which we as legislators can be proud. That is why we are examining this legislation and opposing this section. As I said, we are not applying anything sinister to the Minister's motive in including this section in the Bill.

There is a similar section in the 1950 Act. I do not want to compare this section with the section in the 1950 Act because I am opposed to this section and I do not know why it was included in the 1950 Act. It states clearly in the 1950 Act that there would be a division of the register between ancillary grades and nursing. It said that where an order is made under the section the board may by rules maintain a division of the register in respect of the profession or calling to which the order relates. That is a very big difference but it would not satisfy us because we believe this section should be deleted. We hold the view that a register of nurses should contain only fully qualified nurses.

The Minister referred to the Dentists Bill which has not passed through this House yet. He said the Dental Council can set up a scheme for denturists, but it does not say that they will be registered on the dentists' register. He referred to the fact that doctors worked in hospitals with paramedical staff, and it is true that they work in harmony, but none of the paramedical staff is registered on the medical register, which is confined exclusively to doctors who have reached a certain standard through examination. Clearly this register contains only the names of those who have reached that standard. That is in the interests of the public and the profession.

It is not acceptable to give ministerial power to register persons ancillary to nursing particularly in view of the suggestion in the Explanatory Memorandum that there may be new grades we have not yet thought of. Neither I nor any Fianna Fáil Deputy has suggested that the Minister has anything in particular in mind, but we do not know what the Ministers will have on their minds in the year 2000 and it is giving too much power to a Minister if he can direct An Bord Altranais in the year 2000 to register an ancillary grade of nursing. As I said, it may be a grade nobody has yet thought of, it could be entirely against the interests of the general public to include them on the register.

In a time of recession it would pose a dilemma for health boards, hospitals and anybody who has to employ nursing staff if the register contained an ancillary grade which could be employed at a cheaper rate. This would not be in the interest of the general public. We want to ensure that our nurses are trained to the highest capacity and that they have qualifications which will compare with and be as good as, if not better than in any other country. We are satisfied that they are dedicated and, in terms of educational attainment, we want to ensure that they have the highest qualifications possible. Our register of nurses should contain the names of those who have attained that high level of education. We are opposing this section because we believed that there should be a register of nurses similar to the medical register which would contain the names of nurses who have the basic qualification.

I do not support the cheap labour theory and I do not believe that that was the intention of those who framed this legislation. Neither do I accept that a section in a Bill which was acceptable 35 years ago is necessarily appropriate to the needs of today. The instance that comes to mind to elaborate on that point is that 35 years ago the psychiatric service was in the dark ages compared with the enlightened approach today to the care and treatment of those in need of psychiatric care. At that time, those who were employed to look after those people needed no nursing qualifications although they were usually compassionate people and had to be very healthy because there were no drugs then to tranquilise difficult patients. Legislation which was appropriate and acceptable then bears no relationship to what is needed today.

I am sure the Minister will agree that we still have that kind of personnel on our psychiatric services today. They are marvellous people doing an excellent job. However, there is now an attempt to introduce into that service people with general nursing qualifications together with a specialist qualification in psychiatric care. This is presenting problems in the workforce but they could and should be resolved without trying to perpetuate a situation which is no longer relevant. As chairman of the health board I am aware of problems which exist in that area and the only conclusion I can come to is that this is an effort to come to terms with what is a difficult problem. Years ago those people were used as a cheap workforce but that is not true today. I do not think there is any difference in the remuneration of the general trained nurse and the people who gave such a great service when qualifications were not a requirement. If that has any bearing on the Minister's insistence on keeping this section, it is using a sledgehammer to crack a nut.

I do not understand or accept what the Minister said about this matter. There is no need to keep that section in, particularly when all indications are that we will not face a shortage of young men and women coming into the nursing service for the foreseeable future. There is no need to go outside the realm of properly trained nurses. I reiterate that it should be deleted. I hope this legislation will stand the test of time and I am asking the Minister to treat the nursing profession in the same way as he treated the medical profession. He did not ask them to take on ancillaries. The nurses have enough to do in looking after their own profession and I am not satisfied with what the Minister said about it. That section should be deleted.

I was not impressed by the Minister's scathing comments on all the opposition to this section. Everyone, including the nursing profession, is out of step except our Barry. If, as he says, there is no need for the nursing profession to be perturbed in any way by this why has he not been able to persuade them that this is so? He refers to a section from the Nurses Act, 1950 but, as Deputies have pointed out, 1950 is light years away. At that time jobs now being done by attendants and orderlies were done by trainee nurses. Not alone were they not paid for doing so, they actually paid to do the job of trainee nurses and orderlies.

I understood that one of the primary purposes of the Bill — and this was the understanding of the nurses also — is to upgrade their job to professional status to give them a higher status in the community. It is because the Nurses Act, 1950, is defective that this new Bill is needed. We are now in 1985 so let us forget 1950. Perhaps the Minister does not see that one of the purposes of the Bill is to raise the status of the nursing profession and that the register of nurses will be a symbol of their high profession and calling.

As Deputy O'Hanlon pointed out, under this section they can be instructed by the Minister to keep this register of ancillaries. The Minister, after quite a long dissertation, did not give even one example of whom he is talking about. Until he tells us, we must assume that he is talking about unqualified people such as orderlies, attendants and so on in hospitals who are giving a hand ancillary to nursing. What is the purpose of having a register of unqualified people? What would be the criteria for registering an unqualified person? The fact that they are actually working on the job? Are the nursing profession supposed to register everyone who is there? Even if they are employed by somebody else must they still be on this register? Why should they be doing this? Is it purely for staffing and manning purposes in the hospitals? Are they to keep a register of who is on the job so that when they are on call people can telephone them? What is this register about? Why should hospitals not keep a register of the various people on their staff? Why should the nursing profession have to do this?

This has nothing to do with the day-to-day running of hospitals and why should the nurses keep a register of ancillary staff with no particular qualifications? There is no method of deciding who should be on the register unless they are told by the hospital that someone took up duty that morning and should now be put on the register. If that is not the case, would the Minister clarify it? Are they to keep a record of the ancillary professional services, psychologists, speech therapists, radiographers and so on? It would be helpful if the Minister could tell us the purpose of the register and stop referring to the 1950 Act. What is the purpose of the register? The Minister should not tell us that something or other was in the 1950 Act. We are talking about a completely different Bill. Why should it be in this Bill? It does not seem to have any relationship to it.

I ask the Minister to name the type of people involved. The Eastern Health Board working party of which Deputy Glenn was a member gave examples of ancillary personnel — presumably they did not list them all — as attendants, orderlies, dental assistants, SENs and nursery nurses. The Minister said that dental assistants were included in the Dental Bill. Ancillary dental workers are mostly employed by dentists. It is a completely different kettle of fish with nurses. They are employees and not employers. It is the hospitals who employ these people.

If the Minister is talking about the other professional register, the Eastern Health Board list the type of people covered in that as social workers, occupational therapists, speech therapists, psychiatrists and so on. The Minister spoke to the Eastern Health Board about a register for them.

Who is the Minister talking about now? The unions involved, the Irish Nurses' Organisation, the ITGWU and the association of nurse teachers want this section deleted.

I have no desire to prolong the discussion but I want to be as helpful as possible. This is a complex and very large Bill. We made considerable progress today on Committee Stage. Deputy O'Hanlon raised two points. One was the lack of precision in terms of a separate division of the register relative to the section of the 1950 Act. I am prepared to consider that issue on Report Stage.

The Deputy also understandably and correctly made a point about preoccupation with ministerial direction in relation to this section, namely "whenever the Minister so requests". I am prepared to examine that provision. As regards the generality of the amendment I want to devolve power on An Bord Altranais to set up such a structure if they so wish.

I find it quite extraordinary that Deputy Mac Giolla should deny to the great unrecognised of the health services the prospect of some future registration. So much for the introverted élitism of The Workers' Party.

List them. Who are they? Who is the Minister talking about?

I will leave it like that. It speaks volumes.

Who is to be registered? It does not speak anything. Give an example of one person who will be on the register.

I assure my colleagues that my purpose in coming to grips with trying to work for the 63,000 people who service our health services, be they hospital attendants or senior consultants, was to ensure that what was done for one was done for all. In so far as their educational attainments, training capacities and work modules merit the registration of particular grades, I will endeavour to bring that about. I will do it in terms of paramedical grades and wish to do it in terms of ancillary grades to nursing in order to regularise and give status, which some might deny, to those who merit status, are entitled to it and who, above all, I would remind the Deputy, are entitled to protection in terms of their conditions of employment, be they with a health board or a nursing home. Many of them work in nursing homes as substandard, cheap labour. We are trying to do something about that by having a register of nursing homes and private hospitals. That is also being opposed by some of my colleagues as another evil machination on my part in terms of the destruction of the health services. I happen to be the largest employer in the public service and as far as I am concerned, whether it is a person driving an ambulance or a highly specialised nurse working in a cardiac unit, they will get parity of recognition from me. I will not bend on that issue.

I had to take into account the 1950 Act. I tried to carry over, as any sensible Minister would do, as much of that Act as was desirable in modern industrial terms. One does not discard lightly what is there for many decades. I carried over the provision in a modified form. Unfortunately, mal-intent was read into it. I carried it over bearing in mind that the working party have pointed out that in the decades ahead we cannot be sure precisely how many of the nursing specialities will evolve, given the tremendous change in technology which is occurring in medicine and within our health services.

I have been aware of this as a member of the House for the past 15 years. I would have been remiss if I had not provided that kind of legislative framework for the broad registration of all of the health disciplines in the years ahead. It is no more than sensible to utilise this Bill to provide such a framework for those whose work is related to and is ancillary to nursing. That gives them protection. It gives the nursing profession basic protection and it unifies the system. There is a problem in the area of the delivery of services. There is an enormous specialisation and enormous unitary preoccupation but some degree of cross relationship on occasion is not a bad idea. It may well be that there is already a case for a separate register under the general aegis of the board. The board, as a body of nurses, are the most reasonable body to deal with this area. If I as Minister had dared to unilaterally announce a separate structure for the setting up of an ancillary nursing body, I can imagine the howls of outrage that would have come from the nursing profession. They would say that their profession was being mutilated. I am simply saying to them that if they so wish they may set up a register of people involved in these ancillary services, that is, if they consider such a move to be desirable professionally. Within the framework of the European Community and having regard to a changing pattern of nursing in the years ahead, the board may well decide to set up such a register.

I stress that this is a matter which the board should be in a position to examine. I am sorry if I have talked excessively on this aspect but from the contributions that have been made it would seem to be a crucial part of the Bill. I do not regard it as being of momentous importance in the sense that by and large our nursing structures are established. I am prepared to consider a phrase which does not give clarity in relation to the words, "register in a register maintained for that purpose". I am prepared to accept that the Minister for Health should divest himself of the directive provision that is written into the section. The wording is, "the board may with the consent of the Minister". Having regard to the preoccupation of Members, I am prepared to delete the phrase, "whenever the Minister so requests" but I will have to make the decision in the context of the Report Stage. I have gone as far as I can go without making further change in that regard.

I do not wish to deny the right of basic recognition, of some form of separate basis associated perhaps with those who might be regarded, for want of a better term, as ancillary to the nursing profession. I hope the House will appreciate that I have gone as far as I can in meeting the wishes expressed.

Deputy Ormonde rose.

We are having repetition so I think I should put the question.

I do not wish to delay the House.

I wish to comment also.

If the Chair is allowing further discussion I would remind him that I offered first.

In accordance with precedent, I have crossed the House.

I am glad the Minister is prepared to withdraw the directive part of the section but I am appealing to him to give us an idea of the people who would be likely to be on this other register.

I am reasonably happy with the assurances given by the Minister in respect of matters I raised. I can understand the Minister's attitude and that he has in mind giving control to the nurses who will be on the board to decide whether they require this additional register, but what is causing concern and confusion to a number of my constituents is the phrase, "the board shall, whenever the Minister so requests". That is interpreted as being a direction from the Minister and which would therefore oblige the board to establish this register. However, I accept the Minister's assurance to reconsider the matter between now and Report Stage.

Question put.
The Committee divided: Tá, 74; Níl, 65.

  • Allen, Bernard.
  • Barnes, Monica.
  • Barrett, Seán.
  • Barry, Myra.
  • Barry, Peter.
  • Begley, Michael.
  • Bell, Michael.
  • Bermingham, Joe.
  • Birmingham, George Martin.
  • Boland, John.
  • Bruton, John.
  • Bruton, Richard.
  • Burke, Liam.
  • Carey, Donal.
  • Cluskey, Frank.
  • Collins, Edward.
  • Conlon, John F.
  • Connaughton, Paul.
  • Coogan, Fintan.
  • Cooney, Patrick Mark.
  • Cosgrave, Liam T.
  • Cosgrave, Michael Joe.
  • Crotty, Kieran.
  • Crowley, Frank.
  • Deasy, Martin Austin.
  • Desmond, Barry.
  • Desmond, Eileen.
  • Dowling, Dick.
  • Doyle, Avril.
  • Doyle, Joe.
  • Dukes, Alan.
  • Enright, Thomas W.
  • Farrelly, John V.
  • Fennell, Nuala.
  • FitzGerald, Garret.
  • Flaherty, Mary.
  • Timmins, Godfrey.!Yates, Ivan.
  • Treacy, Seán.
  • Flanagan, Oliver J.
  • Glenn, Alice.
  • Griffin, Brendan.
  • Harte, Patrick D.
  • Hegarty, Paddy.
  • Hussey, Gemma.
  • Kavanagh, Liam.
  • Keating, Michael.
  • Kelly, John.
  • Kenny, Enda.
  • McGahon, Brendan.
  • McGinley, Dinny.
  • McLoughlin, Frank.
  • Manning, Maurice.
  • Mitchell, Gay.
  • Mitchell, Jim.
  • Molony, David.
  • Moynihan, Michael.
  • Naughten, Liam.
  • Nealon, Ted.
  • Noonan, Michael.
  • (Limerick East)
  • O'Brien, Fergus.
  • O'Brien, Willie.
  • O'Keeffe, Jim.
  • O'Sullivan, Toddy.
  • Owen, Nora.
  • Pattison, Séamus.
  • Quinn, Ruairí.
  • Ryan, John.
  • Shatter, Alan.
  • Sheehan, Patrick Joseph.
  • Skelly, Liam.
  • Spring, Dick.
  • Taylor, Mervyn.
  • Taylor-Quinn, Madeline.
  • Yates, Ivan.

Níl

  • Ahern, Bertie.
  • Ahern, Michael.
  • Andrews, David.
  • Aylward, Liam.
  • Barrett, Michael.
  • Brady, Gerard.
  • Brady, Vincent.
  • Brennan, Mattie.
  • Brennan, Paudge.
  • Brennan, Séamus.
  • Briscoe, Ben.
  • Burke, Raphael P.
  • Byrne, Hugh.
  • Byrne, Seán.
  • Calleary, Seán.
  • Conaghan, Hugh.
  • Connolly, Ger.
  • Coughlan, Cathal Seán.
  • Cowen, Brian.
  • Daly, Brendan.
  • De Rossa, Proinsias.
  • Doherty, Seán.
  • Fahey, Francis.
  • Fahey, Jackie.
  • Faulkner, Pádraig.
  • Fitzgerald, Liam Joseph.
  • Flynn, Pádraig.
  • Foley, Denis.
  • Gallagher, Denis.
  • Gallagher, Pat Cope.
  • Harney, Mary.
  • Haughey, Charles J.
  • Hilliard, Colm.
  • Hyland, Liam.
  • Kirk, Séamus.
  • Kitt, Michael.
  • Lemass, Eileen.
  • Leonard, Jimmy.
  • Leonard, Tom.
  • Leyden, Terry.
  • Lyons, Denis.
  • McCarthy, Seán.
  • McEllistrim, Tom.
  • Mac Giolla, Tomás.
  • Morley, P. J.
  • Moynihan, Donal.
  • Nolan, M. J.
  • Noonan, Michael J.
  • (Limerick West)
  • O'Dea, William.
  • O'Hanlon, Rory.
  • O'Keeffe, Edmond.
  • O'Kennedy, Michael.
  • O'Leary, John.
  • Ormonde, Donal.
  • O'Rourke, Mary.
  • Power, Paddy.
  • Reynolds, Albert.
  • Treacy, Noel.
  • Tunney, Jim.
  • Wallace, Dan.
  • Walsh, Joe.
  • Walsh, Seán.
  • Wilson, John P.
  • Woods, Michael.
  • Wyse, Pearse.
Tellers: Tá, Deputies S. Barrett and Taylor; Níl, Deputies V. Brady and M. Barrett.
Question declared carried.
SECTION 32.
Question proposed: "That section 32 stand part of the Bill."

Section 32 states that the board may, in accordance with the rules, provide or make provision for courses in the training and examination of nurses. I should like to ask the Minister——

Order, please. Will those Deputies leave who just want to talk?

The word "may" does not impose any obligation on the board to provide such courses of training and examination. I would like the Minister to comment on this.

The section is a re-enactment of section 50 of the 1950 Act. It empowers the board, in accordance with their rules, to provide directly, or make provision for, training examinations for student nurses. The term "may" is an enabling provision — no more and no less. I would point out that the working paper recommended in relation to educational training programmes generally that the board, as a policy-making body, should not be directly involved in the day-to-day running of programmes and courses. That overall recommendation is very sound. It is envisaged that the majority of training programme courses would be run by agencies other than the board, within the parameters, of course, set by the board. That is the latest information I have on the matter, that the term "may" is simply an enabling provision.

Do I understand that the board may appoint an agency to provide these courses for examination and that there is no obligation on the board to do that?

Yes. I take it that they would have that authority. It is as broadly based as that. That, apparently, is the general view of the board and those are the wishes of the board in that regard.

Question put and agreed to.
SECTION 33.
Question proposed: "That section 33 stand part of the Bill."

This section contains the same provisions as section 32, except that it applies to nurses, not students. It is a re-enactment of section 51 of the 1950 Act.

Question put and agreed to.
SECTION 34.
Question proposed: "That section 34 stand part of the Bill."

In subsection (2) of this section, it is stated:

The examiners (none of whom shall be a member of the Board) at every examination held under this section shall be appointed by the Board, shall hold such qualifications and have such experience in relation to nursing as the Board thinks proper, and shall be remunerated in accordance with a scale fixed by the Board with the approval of the Minister.

Should it not be written into the legislation that these people would be actually engaged in teaching, rather than leave the wording as broad as it is? I presume that the board will select people who are engaged in teaching, but I question whether that discretion should be left to the board or whether we should write it into the legislation that the people who would be carrying out the examinations would be themselves engaged in teaching?

The main point I would make is that they would not necessarily all be teachers. One could envisage matron staff, non-teaching, or service staff or medical staff, equally non-teaching. Certainly, they would have to be suitably qualified examiners as determined by the board. That section is broad enough and flexible enough to enable the board to set up an appropriate structure.

On those sections which deal with the education and post-graduate education of nurses, does the Minister envisage the board having the responsibility of conducting a continuous review and evaluation of current courses on offer or available both to trainee nurses and post-graduate nurses and also of providing a continuous assessment and updating of the various types of courses available for nurses? In this way they would be enabled to keep pace with the complex and constant changes in nursing techniques and care.

There is some anticipation there because further on, section 37 (1) deals with the general question of suitability and adequacy of all courses of nurse training and education, both at preregistration and post-registration levels. I would point out to the Deputy, as she correctly wishes it to be, that it will be a new provision. The Deputy's point will be met.

Question put and agreed to.
SECTION 35.
Question proposed: "That section 35 stand part of the Bill."

I move amendment No. 20:

In page 17, subsection (4), line 14, after "may" to delete ", with the consent of the Minister,".

There are two amendments in my name. Amendment No. 20 would change subsection (4) to:

The Board may withdraw an approval under this section of a hospital or an institution.

If we have confidence in the board, the Minister should leave the decision to the board. The whole of section 35 is very important because it deals with the approval by the board of hospitals and institutions suitable for training purposes. We should give the board authority and there should not be ministerial interference in the decisions of the board. I ask the Minister to consider withdrawing the phrase dealing with ministerial consent. I would ask the Minister to consider withdrawing ministerial consent where the board wish to withdraw an approval from a training hospital or institution.

I have considerable difficulty in accepting the amendments proposed to this section by Deputy O'Hanlon and by Deputies Mac Giolla and De Rossa. I still think that the import of the point can be met generally, the difficulty being that there has been an inordinate preoccupation with the very conventional phrase used throughout this Bill "with the consent of the Minister". Other phrases such as "subject to the approval of the Minister for Health,""subject to the approval of the Minister for the Public Service" or "subject to the approval of the Minister for Finance"— all of these provisions are entirely conventional. Unquestionably the parliamentary draftsman is adamant that there must be, if it is to be law, a ministerial power. Otherwise there is no prospect of enforcement and one would simply be setting up a series of general vacuums. I have difficulty in understanding the proposal to delete the phrase "with the consent of the Minister".

I might point out that it is another provision carried over from the Nurses Act 1950, section 53 thereof, and that an approval has never been withdrawn by An Bord Altranais, which means that the relevant subsection has never been invoked.

I might also point out that withdrawal of approval for training of nurses from a hospital or similar institution naturally would have extremely serious consequences for that hospital from the point of view of service and indeed of status. In the future it may be we will have to face up to these kinds of situations. The working party saw the need for rationalisation of training schools. I might point out additionally that it is now five years since the working party proposed that there should be no more than 15 schools in the country, each school to embrace a group of hospitals and institutions, providing the full range of nursing services together with facilities for theoretical instruction. It is amazing how time slips past. In 1980 the working party made comprehensive, specific recommendations about the composition, size and teaching complement of nurse training schools. It would be remiss of me not to point out that I will be requesting the new board to work towards the implementation of the recommendations of the working party. I know that the present board are preparing the ground in this area.

Unfortunately health is so emotional an area, so preoccupied with local issues and involvements that, in accordance with the working party report, there may well be need to close some of the schools and to amalgamate others into group schools. I am only too well aware of how unpopular that kind of decision can be, the unpopularity it can provoke. Therefore, the provision, as it stands, is a necessary one. I would envisage that nine times out of ten the consent of the Minister would be given, but in the one time out of ten it may be necessary for the Minister of the day and for all concerned to retain the protection afforded by the consent clause in this section. That is my explanation of the situation as I see it at this stage.

I rise in support of our amendment to have the words "with the consent of the Minister" deleted. In this respect I should have thought we were doing the Minister a favour — why employ a dog if the Minister himself is going to bark? Throughout this Bill we see the phrase "with reference to the Minister." I have a letter here from the branch secretary of the Waterford Branch of the Irish Nurses' Organisation who points out that "reference to the Minister" occurs something like 46 times in this Bill. We would have expected the new board to carry some responsibility. Indeed, in fairness to the Minister himself in these kinds of situations, if he is setting up a board as far reaching as will be this one, I would suggest that we give them some teeth to take decisions themselves and not thwart them at every hand's turn.

Perhaps we could have more clarification of what the Minister has in mind in the whole section. We must separate this amendment from the overall section because there seems to be a contradiction here in that on the one hand, the Minister is saying the board will take decisions while, on the other, he seems to be reserving the power to himself to override their decisions and decide cases without any consultation with the board. Perhaps the Minister would give us some indication of what he had in mind when the section was drafted.

In legislation there must be a form of appeal. In the event of the board withdrawing approval of a hospital or institution under the section, they can do a number of things, they can go to the Minister of the day. Constitutionally one could not deny a hospital or institution that entitlement. Secondly, under the Constitution they could go to court anyway. In the interests of the ordinary development of the health services it is far better that they should have a right of appeal to the Minister of the day.

But not every Minister may be as reasonable as is the present one.

That is what Ministers are there for. I often take unpopular decisions, which is not a very pleasant exercise, but that is what Ministers are supposed to be there for. It has never happened that when the board wanted to give or withdraw an approval an appeal upwards has arisen. That is an interesting commentary on the situation since 1950. I would envisage that in the overwhelming number of cases, ministerial consent would be given. It is difficult to envisage a situation in which it would not be given but there could be one in which it would be very desirable for all concerned to retain the protection afforded by the consent clause. We have a written Constitution throughout which the rights of the individual in terms of appeal and natural justice exist. Therefore, no matter what statutory agency one sets up one has to enshrine in it the right of reference to a Minister and indeed he also must give way in terms of an appeal subsequently to the courts.

Repeatedly we have been told that this was contained in the 1950 Act — we were told the same in section 31 — and that, therefore, it is included in the 1984 Bill. I would hope it is not being included just for that reason because things are very different in 1985 than they were in 1950 or 1951. When this Bill was being redrafted, or reconstituted, I should like to think we started afresh, that we intended not so much to update a Bill by bringing forward what was included in the 1950 Act, as to adopt a totally fresh outlook on the whole matter. It was for that reason that we were to bring in a new Bill.

While I would accept what the Minister said about the need in certain sections of the Bill to have ministerial consent, nevertheless in this Bill we are investing power and responsibility in An Bord Altranais to maintain standards. I fail to understand why the Minister wishes to act as judge of their competence to do that. We spent a longer time on section 9 than on any other section so far. Section 9 refers to the composition of the Bill. We have got a well-balanced board which is broadly representative. Obviously it will not please all the various vested interests. If we stayed here until the end of 1985 we would not come up with a board of 29 members which would cater for all the various interests as they would see it.

After a very long and arduous debate in the House we came up with a board of 29 members which is broadly representative. When 17 members are elected by the nurses and 12 are appointed by the Minister we will have a board who will be quite competent to make the necessary decisions to ensure that we will maintain a high level of nursing standards. In a section where it is not necessary to have ministerial consent or direction, we should not insert them just for the sake of having them in the Bill.

I will make one general final comment. Apart from the reasons I have already mentioned I want to point out that there is both a training and a service implication, and particularly a service implication in the withdrawal of recognition. I am not suggesting the board would not give cognisance to the service implication. The Minister of the day may be very preoccupied with the service implication. The question of replacing the service implication of student nurses would have to be considered by the Minister. In so far as training and service are enmeshed, it has to be recognised that, when a decision is being taken about a large element of service in the hospital, the Minister should be consulted by the board and his consent sought.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Amendments Nos. 21, 22 and 23 are related. Amendment No. 23 is an alternative to amendment No. 22. We could take amendments Nos. 21, 22 and 23 together.

I move amendment No. 21:

In page 17, subsection (5), line 17, to delete "Minister" and substitute "High Court".

This is similar to the last amendment we discussed. Subsection (5) of section 35 reads:

A hospital or an institution of which the Board has refused to approve may apply to the Minister to direct the Board to approve of it and if the Minister, after consideration of the facts of the case, gives the direction, the Board shall approve of the hospital or institution.

This gives power to the Minister which many Ministers would not want. If An Bord Altranais decided to close down a training school in the Minister's constituency, he might have difficulty in going along with that decision. In this subsection it would be much more appropriate to have the appeal to the High Court. If the Minister accepts an appeal to the High Court in line 17 we have to substitute the word "court" for the word "Minister" in line 18. That is the reason for the two amendments in my name. If my amendment is accepted, amendment No. 23 will not be necessary. I have no hangup about whether amendment No. 22 or amendment No. 23 is accepted. The principle is that, if the board decide to withdraw approval from a training school, an institution or a hospital, the application should be to the High Court rather than to the Minister, and it would be the court who would reverse the decision rather than the Minister.

I support the amendments substituting the High Court for the Minister in subsection (5). I also support the points made by Deputy O'Hanlon. This would be better for the Bill, particularly as in an earlier section of the Bill the Minister had no problem about making the High Court the immediate source of appeal. The High Court should be inserted in this subsection also.

I support the other speakers on this amendment. It is a matter of great prestige for hospitals to have a nursing school. My own hospital in Ardkeen is the only one in the south-east to have such an honour. To have such a facility withdrawn would be very serious for any hospital. Our interest is to protect the Minister to a great extent. As Deputy O'Hanlon said, the Minister could be put in a very invidious position if a nursing school in a hospital in his own constituency had approval withdrawn. This could make life very difficult for him. It is with this in mind that we are proposing this amendment. The issue is grave enough to have it referred to the High Court and a decision taken there rather than landing it on the lap of the Minister. In all honesty we are making this proposal in the interest of the Minister.

I regret that I am unable to accept the amendments. I am a little surprised at the reaction to this subsection because the whole section has stood the test of time over the past 35 years and has not given cause for embarrassment to the board in all those years. I am aware that the board laid down stringent standards for the training schools. If hospitals do not accept these standards, those claiming recognition would not be left in any doubt about their shortcomings by the board and the hospitals would have to accept that state.

However, we must have provision for appeals in the interest of justice and fair play. In the first instance, appeals should be to the Minister, who is supposed to be making an input into the hospitals, who is in charge of the health services. With all due respect, the High Court does not run the health services. In any event, if the Minister should decide to overturn the views of the board he would have to justify it. He would have called on the Department experts to assess the merits or otherwise of appellant training schools. Then, if the training school felt that the whole thing was totally unjustified and unlawful, they would have the right of appeal to the High Court. This right is implicit in all legislation.

Of course, we should not be calling on the High Court at every hand's turn, particularly in this instance in regard to the training schools. The provision as drafted here does not preclude a hospital or other institution from appealing to the courts if they should wish to do so, and obviously there would be an appeal to the courts if the appeal to the Minister failed. That is adequate protection.

There was an original objection from the Conference of Major Religious Superiors of Ireland who suggested that the Minister for Health initially would be involved in the opening of a hospital training scheme. I will not have any function in regard to initial approval by the board of a hospital as a training school, so that interpretation is not correct. I assure Deputies that legal advice was obtained to the effect that there is nothing in the legislation to preclude the hospitals from appealing to the High Court.

As I have said, the Minister for Health is supposed to be in charge of the health services and I am afraid Ministers for Health have not been anxious to take hard-nosed decisions in relation to training hospitals of which, possibly, we have four or five too many.

The Minister has just raised a fundamental issue. He said the Minister is supposed to run the health service. This seems to run throughout this and other legislation. On the issue of a clearly defined role for the Minister and, in this case, for the board, as Deputy Ormonde said, there are three references in the Bill to the Minister and to ministerial powers. It appears as if the Minister is supposed to be running the health services, so what is the role of the health boards or, in this instance, of the board provided for in relation to training schools? I see a certain overlapping here and it is important that we should deal with the respective role of the Minister and the new board. I should like the Minister to elaborate on this.

It boils down to the fact that any Government worth their salt would run the health services. They provide the money for the training schools in the hospitals. One would swear that the hospitals were running flag days every day of the week to pay for student nurses. The Exchequer pays for them. The Minister must have some fundamental executive powers in this matter and the powers being given in the Bill are reasonable. He is not taking on himself any function in regard to the initial approval of a hospital as a training school. Hospitals now have become super-duper institutions, very expensive, and if the board propose to withdraw recognition of a hospital as a training school there is the right of appeal to the Minister.

We all know that health boards would have an enormous problem in relation to servicing an area if recognition was withdrawn from a training school. Such major service problems might not be known to the board here being established because they might not have a wide view of a particular area. However, there is adequate appeal machanisms in the section. There has to be a political as well as a judicial element in this and we cannot be running to the High Court in the first instance.

I agree with the Minister that the number of appeals will be few and far between and if appeals to the Minister are not successful training schools can appeal to the High Court. What we are suggesting is that the middleman be left out. I was glad to hear the Minister saying that he who pays the piper should call the tune in relation to the health services. That may well be, but members of health boards throughout the country would take a different view in relation to financial allocations. If one wants to take it upon oneself to call the tune then I suggest that person does it all the time and not be selective.

It depends on the tune one wants to play. We play a global tune and local people want to play a local tune. We make broad allocations of money and the health boards spend it at local level. Frankly, at the rate some health boards whine at what they get we would nearly be better off doing the whole job for them. However, that is a policy decision and I am not Erskine Childers.

I suspect that that may be in the back of the Minister's mind.

Some people when they get a job to do refer it back.

Will the Minister define the difference between his executive function and the function of the health boards, a matter referred to by him earlier? A decision in regard to many of these matters will be up to the Minister and it should not be a question of throwing it back to health boards when it suits him.

I do not think that is relevant.

In my view it is.

Acting Chairman

It is not and I am moving on to the next matter.

It is apt.

It is important that in this legislation we define the role of the Minister vis-à-vis An Bord Altranais. From what the Minister has been saying it appears that because the Exchequer provides 90 or 95 per cent of the finance he has the sole control of the administration of the health services. In this regard we are talking about the health services, nurse training schools and the 65 hospitals. It is relevant to know the function of the health boards. We must be told if they will take directions solely from the Minister in administering the services. It appears from what the Minister has said that because the Exchequer provides more than 90 per cent of the finance the Exchequer should have sole control and that health boards and An Bord Altranais will only administer the various schemes. The Minister made it clear that the Minister of the day should be running the health services. It is important in the context of this Bill that we should clarify the role of the Minister vis-à-vis the role of An Bord Altranais.

It is important to point out that the section we are discussing relates to grounds of appeal to the Minister in the event of a refusal by An Bord Altranais to approve of a training school as distinct from the closing down of one or the non-recognition of one. A hospital or institution may apply to the Minister to direct the board to approve of it. The Minister may, after consideration of the facts of the case, give the direction and the board shall approve the hospital or institution. The prospect of that arising is remote. We have too many such schools and the prospect of a whole range of new developments is unlikely.

I must stress that this can only be taken to the High Court if the institution involved feels it has been treated unlawfully or unfairly. That institution can only go to the High Court on a point of law. The form of appeal is more than adequate at this stage.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Amendments Nos. 22 and 23 not moved.
Question proposed: "That section 35 stand part of the Bill."

Subsection(1) states:

(1) Where the Board, on application made to it in that behalf, is satisfied that a hospital or institution is suitable for the training of nurses or of candidates for registration in the register of nurses, the Board shall approve of the hospital or institution for such training.

The subsection specifically refers to a hospital or institution while other sections refer to a "hospital, institution or body." Why is there no reference in subsection (1) to a "body"? In the event of future central training arrangements for nurses with affiliated hospitals on community placements there is not in the Bill any approval for a body such as a health board to provide for the selection of specific assignments. Was the word "body" purposely omitted?

I will check that matter with the parliamentary draftsman. If an amendment is required I will contact the Deputy so that we can table a mutual amendment for Report Stage.

Subsection (2) states:

(2) For the purposes of giving effect to the provisions of subsection (1) of this section the Board may, by rules, specify conditions of suitability for hospitals and institutions.

Has the Minister any idea of what the rules and conditions will be? The Minister mentioned the question of reducing the number of training schools from 65 to 15, a fundamental departure from present circumstances. The Minister has told us that since 1950 very few training schools have closed. I can recall that one school, St. Brigid's in Ardee, closed. As legislators we should examine closely any proposal to reduce the number of training schools from 65 to 15. We should not reduce the number for economic reasons if they are providing an input into the delivery of health care. Training schools provide a very good input into the delivery of health care provided they are up to standard. We should be slow to encourage their closure.

From what the Minister has said it appears that a Minister could use his authority to ensure that training schools are closed in certain areas where they are providing this input. That brings me to the question of the role of health boards. Have they any function other than to deliver the services as directed by the Minister? The recommendation of the working party to reduce the number of training schools from 65 to 15 is something we should be concerned about. I do not think such a move would be in the interests of the people so we should give some thought to that recommendation.

A great deal of work is being done preparing the criteria for suitability. As late as September 1984 discussion documents and drafts on the criteria for approval and inspection of schools of nursing and midwifery issued. I can assure the Deputy that we will take very careful note of his observations in that regard but I do not want to elaborate further on this because this could be the basis of a debate which could take a great deal of time. As I said, the Deputy can be assured that we have taken note of his views which, in my view, will fit into the framework of the Bill.

I accept that this subject is worthy of more elaborate and serious consideration elsewhere but the Minister introduced the fact that the working party recommended that the number of training schools should be reduced from 65 to 15. This is fundamental to this section which deals with the giving and taking of approval from hospitals with training schools.

In my health board area there were two training schools for psychiatric nurses, one in St. Brigid's, Ardee, and the other at St. Davnets, Monaghan. The training school in St. Brigid's, Ardee, was closed ten years ago and the training school in St. Davnets, Monaghan, because of cutbacks, has not taken any students for the last three years. This will cause a problem in the delivery of care to psychiatric patients because at some time in the future there will be a bottleneck. There will be more elderly nurses and, depending how long the training school is closed, there will not be younger nurses to look after psychiatric patients. This is something the Minister, the legislators and the health boards should be concerned with. This is all interlinked with ministerial powers, the role and functions of the health boards and, in this case, the role and functions of An Bord Altranais. We must ensure that there are sufficient training schools to produce enough nurses to give adequate and proper care to patients.

The Deputy correctly made the point that they are all interlinked. I hope to publish in the very near future the excellent and comprehensive report of the study group set up in 1981 to look into the general development of our psychiatric services. That report has been presented to me and I will be bringing it to Government within the next week or two. I can assure the Deputy that we need to have a complete and fundamental review of the role of our psychiatric hospitals and their training structures. That is highlighted in many ways in this report. I will be formally asking the board to review the rationalisation of the nurse training schools. This will be one of the first questions I put to them arising out of the working party report. We have a very bad record in implementing recommendations of various working parties. This report was commissioned in 1980 or 1981. This is 1985 and we are only receiving that report. The quicker the board consult with the agencies concerned and the Department on this issue the better. Section 35 gives the necessary protection at the end of the day.

Question put and agreed to.
SECTION 36.

Acting Chairman

Amendments Nos. 24 and 25 are related and may be discussed together.

I move amendment No. 24:

In page 17, subsection (2), line 26, after "nurse" to insert ", but the Training Schools shall select their own candidates for nurse training".

I consider this amendment as being of fundamental importance. Section 36 (2) reads:

The Board may, if it so determines, establish a central applications bureau to process applications from persons wishing to undertake training as a nurse.

We would welcome the setting up of a central application bureau to collect applications from potential student nurses because nobody can be happy with the present system where a boy or girl writes to 65 training institutions and very often gets a negative reply from all. We believe it would be in the interests of the potential students that there should be a central applications bureau. We are very concerned about this section.

We do not disagree with subsection (1) which gives the board power to lay down minimum educational requirements but we are concerned that the board would have the power to decide which students a hospital would take and we are also concerned that it is not written into the legislation that the training schools would select their own candidates and will make the final selection. This is a very important section. If my amendment were accepted subsection (2) would read:

The Board may, if it so determines, establish a central applications bureau to process applications from persons wishing to undertake training as a nurse, but the Training Schools shall select their own candidates for nurse training.

We believe that is fundamental. The Minister in his closing statement on Second Stage referred to the analogy between the universities and the training colleges. They are very different. A student applies to a university, and that is an independent contract, whereas the student nurse goes into the hospital as an employee, and therefore, there is an employer-employee relationship. It would be against the principles of the Constitution if we were to interfere with the employer-employee relationship by not giving the employer a say in who will be selected as the employee, in this instance, a student nurse. Subsection (3) states:

Any hospital or institution approved of by the Board pursuant to section 35 of this Act may not, without the consent of the Board, accept for training any person who is not approved of and recommended by the Board.

We accept that the board have the right to lay down the minimum educational requirements necessary for entry into a hospital for training as a nurse. We also accept that the board, if they so wish, may set up an applications bureau to collect applications and to process them to see that the applicant has the minimal educational standards required. We believe that it is fundamental that the training school have the final right of selection, particularly in regard to the employer-employee relationship. It is also very important that the character and ethos of hospitals are maintained. That has always been important and has been written into legislation in the past. It would be very wrong in this legislation to take away from hospitals the right to select their own students for their training schools.

In relation to subsection (3), I could envisage a situation where a voluntary hospital, with a mission abroad, might wish to take in a student nurse from a Third World country. They should have the right to train a nurse and send him or her back to that country. An embargo should not be placed on them by that subsection. I ask the Minister to accept amendment No. 24 that training schools shall select their own candidates. I also ask him to delete subsection (3).

With regard to the right of hospitals to maintain their own character and ethos section 14 of the Hospitals Federation and Amalgamation Act, 1961, states:

(1) The following functions in relation to the participating Hospitals (in this Act referred to as functions assigned to the Council) shall be performed by the Council.

(2) The Council shall not assign any visiting medical staff to a participating Hospital of a particular denominational character unless the assignment is in accord with such character save with the approval of the Hospital Board concerned.

(3) In the exercise of its functions in relation to the co-ordination of the activities of the Hospitals in the matter of nursing education and the conduct of the negotiations in regard to such matters with An Bord Altranais, the Council shall take no account which would operate to—

(a) involve a student nurse in any arrangement for attending lectures on the ethics and psychology of nursing which do not conform to her religious beliefs, or

(b) interfere with the autonomy of a nursing school attached to any participating Hospitals of a particular denominational character.

That is already written into legislation in relation to the Hospital Federation and Amalgamation Act, 1961, and it was very sensible and wise at the time. We should ensure that we do not do anything in this legislation which would interfere with the right of a training school to select their own candidates or with the character and ethos of our hospitals.

I will make some observations which may be helpful. I know that many Deputies have had approaches about the proposed central applications bureau and how it will work. Deputy O'Hanlon and others have approached me in regard to this matter and have expressed concern, a concern which has also been voiced by some managers of voluntary nurse training hospitals. I recently met representatives of the Conference of Major Religious Superiors whose members include those concerned with managers. I had lengthy discussions with them and I explained that this section is an enabling provision which would allow the board to establish a central applications bureau. If the bureau is established — and it is my wish that it should be established — its operation will be determined by the board and it will set down various rules for the operation of the CAB.

I subsequently arranged for the conference to meet members of the staff of the present board. They met Sister Columba, Sister Carmel, John Foster, Noel Daly and Jerry Donnellan on 15 January and they had a very interesting discussion. They were informed of the thinking of the present board in terms of a central applications bureau and I gather that the chief executive officer of An Bord Altranais has agreed to liaise with the secretary general of the conference on developments from now on.

The working party, which had many representatives from the voluntary hospital side, made a very compelling case in favour of a meaningful — to use that awful word — central applications bureau. Their case was cogent and compelling and, even if the working party had not suggested it, I would have put it into the Bill in the interests of equity among applicants for student nursing — God knows this has been lacking here in terms of recruitment of student nurses — and also in the interests of efficiency. Deputies will agree that a progressive step in any field is always accompanied by misgivings, particularly by those who perceive that they are going to lose a privilege or a certain role. The operation of a central applications bureau will be in the hands of representatives of the nurses who will determine entry into nursing. I do not accept — I want to be very clear and firm in this regard — that the CAB could be simply an efficient sorting office and no more than that or a kind of vague reference system. It has to be something more than that if it is to serve the needs of nurse training.

Deputy O'Hanlon has put down two amendments. At this stage I am not prepared to accept amendment No. 25 but I am prepared to examine it on Report Stage. It would be administratively undesirable to operate if a central applications bureau was not established. If for example there was a gap of six months between the setting up of a Central Applications Bureau that section would have to operate and would cause all kinds of problems. For administrative convenience I am prepared to look at amendment No. 25.

The working party on general nursing were quite specific with regard to the overwhelming influence which the training schools would have in relation to the CAB. They stated that the Central Applications Bureau should be as representative as possible of all nurse training schools and of all other bodies interested in the recruitment and training of nurses. They stated that the committee of the CAB should have approximately 20 members appointed by An Bord Altranais, 15 of whom would be appointed by the board on the nomination of the schools. The voluntary hospitals will have nominations to the CAB and will have a very big role to play but it will be a role based on equity of application and selection of students in the services. I thank Deputies for giving me an opportunity to put that much on record at this stage.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.
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