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Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 11 Jun 1985

Vol. 359 No. 6

Private Members' Business. - Prison Accommodation: Motion.

I move:

That Dáil Éireann condemns the Government for their failure to provide adequate and secure prison accommodation to meet the present needs.

The very fact that the House finds it necessary to debate this motion is, in itself, an indication of the very serious social and economic conditions prevailing in the country for some time. I understand that this is the first time the House has found it necessary to debate a motion of this nature. The need for this debate arises from the growing level of public unease and concern about the serious deterioration in law and order over the past two years in particular.

The evidence of this deterioration is reflected not only in the statistics of crime but also in a more tragic and vivid way in the trauma, misery, fear and insecurity on the part of many citizens who have been the victims of this wave of violence which many people believe is unprecedented in the history of the State. There is no other area of national administration where the State is bound and expected to play a more major role than in protecting the lives and property of our citizens. Regardless of living standards and other social problems, if citizens cannot feel secure in their homes, if they are not free to walk the streets in safety, if they cannot leave their cars in safety outside their homes, if our banks and public buildings are under attack and if old people feel at risk particularly in rural areas, we in this House must take serious note, because our reason for being here, which is to create a social order in which people can work and live in a peaceful and contented environment, is put under attack.

I have no desire to make political capital out of a very serious challenge to all of us at this time. To the extent that the Government of the day are responsible for the social and economic environment in which we live, I hope this debate will stimulate the Government into action and warn the Minister that he and his colleagues are playing with a time bomb because of the unacceptable level of unemployment which, of its very nature, is a breeding ground for crime. While I do not and cannot condone crime in any shape or form, it is easy to understand why young people will rebel against a system which denies them their legitimate right to a job. It is easy to understand why people rebel against a system which contributes to widening the gap between those living in affluence and those living in relative poverty.

It is sad that we must talk about the provision of additional prison accommodation in those circumstances. I hold the view that imprisonment is no substitute for our failure to order a fair and just society. There are those in society who show a total disregard for life and property. We have a duty to protect society from those people. The answer to our social problem is not to be found in the provision of additional prison accommodation, but rather in the creation of a social and economic environment where prison accommodation would need to be reduced to the minimum.

This debate does not provide an opportunity to analyse Government policy on social and economic development. If it did, we would find part of the cause of our social unrest deep rooted in this area. The public need to have confidence in the administration of justice. They need to have confidence in this House in the first instance. They need to feel we are capable of legislating and, more important, capable of implementing legislation in the area of law enforcement. They need to feel secure in the knowledge that people apprehended and convicted of serious crime are made to serve their sentences. They need to feel secure in the knowledge that the full implementation of the law is not restricted in any way by the inadequancy of places of retention.

They certainly need to feel secure in the knowledge that the conditions for the discharge of prisoners on parole or on early release are in accordance with recognised, long-established and accepted procedures. It is an established fact that, in the past few years, there were periods when our courts were inhibited from dealing adequately with offenders because of inadequate prison accommodation. The fact that district justices found it necessary to comment was an indication of the frustration of the courts and the people who were expected to administer justice on our behalf.

It is also an established fact that in recent years the Garda were totally disillusioned and frustrated when they found offenders they had apprehended and brought to justice back on the streets after relatively short periods of time. Those who wanted to make a career of crime were given a new lease of life during that period. They knew that if they continued to embark on their escapade of law breaking, there was no place in which they could be detained. I submit that these are areas of concern which have been agitating the public mind for some time.

I will refrain from making unfair accusations against the Minister. This is far too sensitive an area for political point scoring. While he is the person directly responsible to the House for law and order, he is a prisoner in a Cabinet who have refused to face reality in relation to law and order and who are responsible for the seriousness of the present position. It is a well-established fact that, if the prison system in any country is inadequate or insecure, the whole process of law enforcement is undermined and put at risk. I do not think there is anybody in this House who would not admit that there has been a very serious deterioration in that area during the past 12 months.

It is also an established fact that the awareness of inadequate prison accommodation provides a psychological boost for the potential lawbreaker who feels free to break the law in the knowledge that he will not have to serve a prison sentence if convicted or, at worst, will be released long before he has served his full term. Confirmation of my argument, if confirmation be needed, is the very welcome decline in the number of car thefts and incidents of joyriding in recent weeks and months. Apart from the work of the Garda in this area, the most significant factor was the opening of the prison on Spike Island, Fort Mitchel. I should like to pay a well deserved tribute to the Garda Síochána for the very courageous part they played in helping to combat what was for a time a very serious wave of violence in relation to car thefts and joyriding.

The Minister knows that I welcomed and supported his efforts to open Spike Island. I have already said that it was a reactionary measure, a decision which was taken in panic with no advance planning or preparation, as was proved subsequently by the escape of six prisoners and the almost farcial situation in which prisoners were being entrusted with the task of securing their own detention. While I can appreciate that in certain circumstances that kind of rehabilitation would be useful and beneficial, it was a reckless decision in relation to a new prison and was proved to be so.

I should like to put on the record of this House the level of co-operation which the Minister received in this exercise from the prison officers who under difficult conditions for themselves displayed their concern and responsibility. Their willingness to co-operate with the Minister in opening this prison was very much to their credit and should not go unrecognised in this House.

It should be said that the decision posed a serious threat to the ten civilian families residing on Spike Island. While I acknowledge that the Minister eventually took some action, it was some time before gardaí were allocated to the island to protect the families there.

It is not unfair to ask the Minister why he did not make the necessary preparations for the opening of Fort Mitchel two years ago when the Government decided to abandon — the Minister prefers to use the word "postpone"— the phased building programme which he inherited from the previous Government. Whether we use the words "abandoned" or "postponed", the reality is that the shelving of that plan was totally irresponsible, a further example of the kind of monetarist decisions which this Government have been taking, regardless of the consequences for the public. It will prove more costly in the long term. What is the additional cost of this reactionary policy in providing short-term prison accommodation? Time will tell whether my prediction is right that the additional cost of providing short-term prison accommodation will far outweigh the financial merit of the decision to postpone progress on the building of new prison accommodation. I put it to the Minister that it would have been cheaper in the long run to forge ahead two years ago with the planned prison accommodation, particularly at Portlaoise.

The Minister complained during a recent debate about the amount of money spent by Fianna Fáil in planning new prisons, yet he told the House recently that the plans were being revised and redrawn. At what additional cost? Why has he found it necessary to alter the plans prepared three years ago? He might tell the House whether there has been a change in emphasis in future prison development and why the change is taking place. If new prison plans and designs were acceptable three years ago, surely it should not be necessary to have them redrawn now.

I would also ask the Minister to tell the House the time scale for the proposed new prison development programme, particularly in relation to the Portlaoise prison and his plans for the new officers' accommodation there. I have no doubt that he will agree that the decision to transfer prisoners into this modern complex in a highly residential area of Portlaoise town is both undesirable and dangerous and a very unfair imposition on the people of Portlaoise, particularly those in the large number of houses surrounding that area. Perhaps he would tell the House why he has proceeded with this building. Work was commenced only during the past 12 months. It would have been wiser and fairer to the 50 families of prison officers residing in the new estate and to those living in the large number of private houses in the area if the building of this block had been deferred until the new prison was provided. The money so saved should have been put into new accommodation for prisoners within the existing complex.

I have no idea what this new building cost. It is situated in a new housing complex and is a modern purpose built structure for the housing of prison officers following the completion of the proposed new prison. That prison development was postponed and it would have been logical to defer the building of the single officers' accommodation and use the money to provide additional secure accommodation which is urgently needed. That additional accommodation could have been provided within the existing prison complex in Portlaoise. Surely that would have been the sensible thing to do. If the Government seriously looked at the financial aspect of prison security they would have abandoned that part of the development until the new prison complex at Portlaoise was going ahead. I would have preferred to see the money being used to provide new prison accommodation in Portlaoise. I regret that has not happened.

I sympathise with the Minister who is now in the position of having as a matter of urgency to provide short term additional prison accommodation. Some time last December he gave a press conference and indicated that there was no emergency in relation to the provision of prison accommodation. The Minister now has to tear around the country looking for suitable buildings in which to house prisoners. Either the Minister was putting on a good show at the press conference or he was not fully au fait with the position at the time. We know that he will have to get additional prison accommodation. The Government should have acted in relation to building new accommodation within the Portlaoise complex from the money which they would have saved. When one considers how slowly public building contracts proceed the provision of this temporary short term accommodation could turn out to be fairly long term.

The recent statistics indicate a reduction in the level of car thefts and joyriding. That is to be welcomed by all sides of the House. We owe a debt of gratitude to the Garda in their war against this challenging and dangerous form of crime. Many of them put their lives at risk in the performance of their duties. The opening of Spike Island was a major factor in helping to bring this area of crime under control. It proves my point that the decision not to go ahead with the prison building programme was a retrograde one. The present overcrowding in prisons presents a serious threat to the penal system. It will lead to disturbances arising from the tension caused by overcrowding and will make the task of prison officers more difficult. It will present a threat to the security of the prisoners. We will give the Minister our full backing in providing secure short term prison accommodation. I realise he cannot provide new accommodation with the speed which is now required. That is not the fault of anyone on this side of the House. In his efforts to secure such accommodation the Minister should have consultation and discussion with local communities. This is a matter of national security and I would like to be seen to give my full support and backing to the Minister in relation to this area.

I pay tribute to the prison officers. They deserve the recognition and thanks of the House. They do an extremely difficult job on behalf of the nation. I appeal to the Minister to resume normal relations with the association. There is nothing to be gained from the cold war which has existed for some time now between the Minister and members of the association. All of us in the House, the Government, the Garda and prison officers should be united in our efforts to establish the kind of society in which people can live in relative security. We never again want to experience the trauma of last winter when the wave of violence spread from the urban areas into rural areas. Old people living alone in rural areas were under serious threat and in one instance their home was set on fire. Part of the problem arose for the fact that the Garda were beginning to defeat the wave of crime and violence in urban areas and the criminal found it safer to retreat to the rural areas. The Government should rethink their policy in relation to rural policing. I know that the Minister will say no rural Garda stations have been closed but we all know that the level of manning in these stations has been drastically reduced. That is a direct result of the reduction in overtime. It is rather pathetic that when one dials the telephone number of a rural Garda station at certain hours of the day it is not possible to get a response. The provision of the green man, the gadget on the outside wall of the rural station, is no substitute for the local garda in terms of his involvement in the local community and his knowledge of the happenings within that community.

I repeat that there is no substitute for the local garda who is known to the community, is a familiar figure to them and has built up a relationship with them. We live in an age when all kinds of modern communications methods are available but we should not accept these methods of communication as a replacement for the effectiveness of the Garda operating on the ground.

Can the Minister say how soon he will proceed with the postponed prison development programme because we are entitled to know details of any forward planning in relation to the provision of adequate and secure prison accommodation? The Minister should also indicate his views on the rehabilitation of prisoners. Far too often the prison system contributes to the hardening of the criminal regarding his operations when he gets out of prison. There is an urgent need to increase the number of social workers employed by his Department in the counselling and rehabilitation of prisoners when they are released. A prison term is supposed to be a period of correction and present overcrowding must lead to considerable frustration. It does not equip the prisoner for life in the community outside and perhaps the Minister will enlighten us in this regard.

It is also important that the Minister should give some thought to educating young offenders on the futility of pursuing a life of law breaking because that cycle very often repeats itself. We should prevent this from happening through our social and economic policies. Crime and violence are products of the prevailing social and economic conditions and unless we tackle our present problems we will have to make increasing provision for the detention of people who come in conflict with the law. It is extremely important to reverse the trends——

A passing reference is in order.

Very well. We must get away from conditions which demand that we continue to provide more and more prison accommodation and it is within the hands of the Government to bring about such a climate. I appeal to the Minister to reassure the House that he is taking adequate and immediate steps to bring a very undesirable situation under control. In that process, he will have my full backing and support in my short term capacity as Opposition deputy spokesman on Justice.

Limerick East): I move amendment No. 1:

To delete all words after "That" and substitute the following:—

"Dáil Éireann notes that the number of offenders accommodated in the prison system has increased by over fifty per cent since the present Minister for Justice took Office, commends the Minister for providing, despite the severe limitations in Exchequer resources, the necessary custodial accommodation, acknowledges the steps he has taken to develop alternative methods of dealing with offenders and welcomes his efforts to have the penal system examined and reported on by an independent committee of experts."

I am surprised that the Opposition should chose to devote Private Members' Business this week to raise this matter, particularly as last week we had the Justice Estimates debate and there were also parliamentary questions answered on the subject. It may be that the Opposition believe that repetition makes for truth and that if they repeat something often enough — no matter how ridiculous — they might even convince themselves that they have a point.

It seems that despite my previous efforts to explain the situation, the Members opposite are intent on clinging to the myth that there would be no difficulties now in providing sufficient custodial accommodation if I had spent the tens of millions of pounds which they say they would have provided over the years for the prison capital programme.

That is not the case and I have explained why previously to the House. I have no option but to go over the ground again. However, on this occasion I appeal to the Members opposite to do their best to comprehend the realities of the situation. If they can do so they might refrain from misleading themselves, this House and the country at large about this matter.

I should say also to put the matter in context that I do not share the Opposition's unshakeable faith that throwing millions of pounds of taxpayers' money at a problem is invariably the way to solve it.

When I came into office, the prison capital programme contained a number of major projects to provide additional custodial accommodation. The earliest major additional accommodation which could be made available under the programme was the place of detention at Wheatfield. I was satisfied that that project should proceed and obtained the necessary funding to allow this. The project, accordingly, proceeded without interruption and design changes were incorporated to increase the capacity of the place of detention from 150 to 320. The project is expected to be completed by the end of 1987 and will provide an additional 170 places over what was envisaged in the original capital programme.

As this was the project which it was envisaged could be completed quickest it will be clear that had funds been provided for the other major projects they would not be available yet to ease pressure on custodial accommodation. To suggest in those circumstances that not proceeding with those projects has led to accommodation difficulties in 1985 or earlier is to ignore the reality.

While I was prepared to continue with the project at Wheatfield and double the number of offenders to be accommodated there, the allocation of further moneys to other major projects had to be assessed in the light of a number of factors. These included severe Exchequer difficulties, the likely time-scale in which those projects would be able to provide additional accommodation, the likely demands on custodial accommodation and the effect of the development of alternative sanctions on these demands.

Prison construction of its nature has proved to be very expensive and the factors which determine custodial requirements are complex. I was always of the view that these matters could benefit from a thorough review of penal policy generally here and such a review is now being undertaken by a distinguished committee under the chairmanship of Dr. T. K. Whitaker.

I was reinforced in that belief by my concern at some aspects of the capital programme as devised by the Fianna Fáil administration. They seek now to convey the impression that the programme was geared entirely to the provision of custodial accommodation but that is not the case.

Under the Fianna Fáil administration expenditure in the capital programme was committed to providing staff quarters at Portlaoise. The work included the provision of 60 houses for married officers; a residential block for 60 single officers and certain general site works some of which would be needed if the new prison at Portlaoise was to go ahead. I should like to tell Deputy Hyland — he may not be aware of this — that the contract for the houses and the contract for the officers' quarters was one and the same contract. There was not an option of stoping the building of the quarters. It was part of the contract which went hand in glove with the houses.

When I came into office this work had advanced to a stage where I could not halt the project. The Office of Public Works act as agents for my Department in the provision of accommodation and in a written reply last January Deputy Hyland was informed by the Minister responsible for the OPW that the expected total cost of this project would be £6.6 million. I think the House will accept that the expenditure on the project was enormously high and my Department have expressed their concern about this to the Office of Public Works.

The expenditure on this project was incurred as a direct result of decisions made by the Fianna Fáil administration and it raises obvious questions about their approach to the prison capital programme. Obviously, £6.6 million has been used but not a single prisoner will be accommodated. It could be justified if it was accommodating prison officers but it is not doing that either. There are very few applicants for that residential building.

As I will mention later, I have decided in the circumstances that the single officers' quarters at Portlaoise will now be used to accommodate offenders. There is no doubt — and I agree with Deputy Hyland on this — that the £6.6 million wasted on unnecessary accommodation by the Fianna Fáil Government to provide unnecessary facilities at Portlaoise prison would have been better spent if it had been used to provide custodial accommodation within the walls of Portlaoise.

That is the challenge I threw up to the Minister.

(Limerick East): It does not take a genius to calculate the unit cost of the accommodation at Portlaoise prison. When the Deputy refers to the capital programme he should remember the colossal unnecessary expenditure engaged in by the administration that was in power before I took over and the decisions taken as far back as 1978 and 1979. When I took over it was unstoppable because the contractual commitments had been made and it would have cost more to stop them than to go ahead.

That is not true. The contract was in different stages and the Minister could have decided to stop any stage.

(Limerick East): No.

Deputy Hyland should allow the Minister to continue without interruption. I cannot allow the Deputy to interrupt the Minister. He was not interrupted.

I apologise, but I cannot allow the Minister to get away with a statement that is not true.

(Limerick East): I am afraid the Deputy is being misled. The position I am in is that I am trying to recover some of the value for the taxpayers who are being hard hit enough. I have taken a decision to use that residential accommodation which has not been used up to now. It will not be used to accommodate prison officers.

It would have been used had the prison been built. The accommodation would have been used if the Minister had not decided to abandon the prison development programme in Portlaoise and the Minister should not try to mislead or confuse the issue.

The Deputy should not interrupt the Minister.

It is difficult not to interrupt him when he is misrepresenting the position in the House.

(Limerick East): It is an extraordinary approach to capital expenditure when in proceeding to build a prison to accommodate offenders the first step one takes is to spend £6.6 million on accommodation for officers to staff a prison the plans for which had not left the drawing board. Is that not an extraordinary attitude to capital expenditure?

The plans would have left the drawing board if the Minister had agreed to proceed.

A Member will speak on behalf of the Deputy's party in response to the Minister and the Deputy should allow the Minister to continue without interruption. The speaker who follows can answer the points made by the Minister.

It is difficult not to interrupt when I hear the Minister totally misrepresenting the position for political reasons and saving his face.

(Limerick East): That must be the classic of all classical mistakes in the wasting of taxpayers' money, spending money on accommodation one does not need in advance of spending money on accommodation that is needed. It is no wonder I had problems when I took office.

The Minister could have decided to postpone it.

(Limerick East): I could not. It was gone beyond anything I could do. The report from Dr. Whitaker's committee is expected to be available in a matter of months and I am sure all Members of the House look forward to the outcome of the first major review of our penal system since the foundation of the State. Undoubtedly, the conclusions which the committee reaches on prison construction will be of particular interest.

The House will be aware that the terms of reference are quite wide. Dr. Whitaker and his expert committee will have plenty of opportunities to assess all sorts of things in association with prisons, whether it is the regimes within prisons, how far they are geared to rehabilitation or the sentencing policy. They will be in a position to assess the prison building programme and the prison accommodation we will need in the future. I am sure the House will be interested in that report when it is available. If after reviewing the committee's report the Government are satisfied that further resources should be allocated to prison construction in addition to the project at Wheatfield then this will be done.

In the meantime, of course, the Government have had to cope with the unforeseen and unprecedented growth in the numbers being committed to custody at present and this has had to be done generally without assistance from the capital programme which I inherited and which, as I explained earlier, was not geared to have new purpose-built accommodation available at this stage.

I will outline in a few moments the measures which I have taken to deal effectively with this. Before doing so, however, I wish to refer briefly to remarks which have been made about reductions in the capital provision in the 1983 Estimates. I have already outlined the background against which that decision was taken but I have to tell the House that I have every reason to be sceptical about claims which the Members opposite make about the 1983 Prison Estimate which they had proposed.

When I assumed office I found that a provision of only £4.5 million had been made for prisons overtime in 1983 although expenditure in 1982 had been about £7.4 million. No decisions had been taken which would have led to a reduction in overtime working but the proposed Estimates could still suggest that overtime expenditure would cost some £3 million less than the previous year. That was another exercise in creative accounting, where one wins the reduction but one does not provide the means to spare £3 million in prison overtime — another cod figure in the 1983 Estimates. In the circumstances, I had to seek an allocation of a further £2 million so that a realistic provision was included in the revised 1983 Estimate. I mention this not to highlight the state of industrial anarchy in the prisons which I inherited from the Members opposite whereby staff were virtually setting the level of overtime working in the service, but to illustrate that the House is entitled to be suspicious of claims which the Opposition now make about the 1983 Prison Estimate which they had prepared.

I believe the Government have responded to the need for additional accommodation in a responsible and effective manner. That can be seen from the fact that in 1982 there was a daily average of 1,236 in custody, whereas this morning there were 1,936 offenders being accommodated, and last week there were 1,960-odd. I am glad there is a reduction this morning.

The increased numbers which can be held in custody have been made possible by maximising the use of existing custodial accommodation and by the acquisition of temporary additional accommodation such as Fort Mitchel on Spike Island and the education units at Cork and Arbour Hill through the relocation of the educational facilities at those institutions. There is no doubt that coping with such a large increase in the number of offenders over such a short period would cause problems and difficulties for any prison administration, but those problems and difficulties are being faced up to so as to ensure that offenders serve to the greatest extent possible the sentences imposed on them by the courts.

As I said in my Estimates speech last week, the situation requires a flexible approach which has due regard to the capacity and nature of the various institutions and at the same time the need to ensure that sufficient accommodation is available to cope with offenders committed to custody for serious offences.

Problems with prison accommodation are not new and, in fact, in 1979 a previous administration resorted to the practice of "shedding"— letting people out of prison early because of insufficient accommodation. When I came into office I was concerned at the extent of this practice and as well as providing additional accommodation to deal with the problem I introduced a system of home leave as an alternative to "shedding". Under this scheme, offenders serving sentences for relatively minor offences are granted periods of home leave subject to certain conditions such as a requirement to report to the local Garda station. The nature of offences where this scheme can operate is limited and leave is granted only after consultation with the Garda. Offenders are returned to custody should any evidence emerge that an offender is in any way abusing the scheme.

I have also indicated that I am prepared in certain circumstances to grant slightly more than the statutory remission to offenders who are of good behaviour in custody. This can be justified on a number of grounds. Deputies often make representation on behalf of offenders where circumstances have changed while an offender is serving his sentence which could justify a review of sentence. And, as I said last week, sentencing is not so precise a science that a reduction of, say, two to three weeks could be said to defeat the purpose of the original sentence. These forms of release might not be resorted to as much if extra custodial accommodation was available, but I believe they represent a justifiable response to a difficult situation and take into account the reality of prison administration and the need to protect society. They are certainly a far cry from the picture which some Opposition spokesmen have tried to create of serious criminals being let out early because of a lack of prison space.

The message was at last getting across to people who indulge in criminal activity on a serious scale — particularly of the type which has given rise lately to great public concern — that there is prison accommodation to ensure that they will serve whatever sentences are imposed. People who try to convey a contrary message by making ill-founded claims about early releases and the lack of prison accommodation however well-motivated should bear in mind the consequences of their actions. Such claims needlessly frighten the vulnerable in our society, encourage the criminal and undermine the efforts of the Garda in dealing with the crime problem. It would be unfortunate if the community has to pay that price for the ill-informed posturing of some of the Members opposite, but I can assure the House that any criminal who found comfort in the assertion that there was insufficient accommodation in the prisons were he to be convicted would be a very foolish criminal indeed.

The motion in Deputy Hyland's name refers to the need for secure prison accommodation. There is such a need and that is why the educational units at Cork and Arbour Hill have been relocated so that the units can be used to provide secure accommodation for offenders. In addition, work is continuing to make Fort Mitchel, which is being run at the moment as a semi-open prison, relatively secure.

However, I should say a few words about the useful role which open prisons have played and are continuing to play in our penal system. Open institutions, as a penological concept, were first introduced into the Irish penal system in the late sixties and early seventies. They were introduced at a time when the profile of the prison population was very different from what it is today. A high proportion of our present prison population have been convicted of serious offences and, to put it in prison terms, the number of prisoners who could be termed "trusties" is getting smaller. Because of this it has become more difficult to find the type of offender who traditionally was considered suitable for open centres. But the fact remains that prisoners, whatever their crimes, must sooner or later be released.

The issue which must be addressed is whether it is better to release a prisoner on the last day of his sentence or, in a controlled way, to ease him back into the community before that. I believe the latter option to be the most sensible and if I am correct then the open centres must continue to play their role in providing pre-release facilities for prisoners even if the prisoners we have to deal with now are more difficult than prisoners in the past.

In addition, open centres have a major role to play in providing additional accommodation for low risk offenders so that secure accommodation is available for more serious criminals. The use of such centres has also to be seen against the background which I outlined earlier of a lack in the short term of new purpose-built secure prison accommodation.

Deputies will be aware that I have been interested in acquiring suitable premises which can be used for custodial accommodation and that search is continuing. Deputies will also be aware of the disgraceful approach which members of the Opposition party have taken to this matter. When it became known that I hoped to acquire a premises at James's Street that move was welcomed by the Opposition spokesman on Justice. Some short time afterwards, however, there was a meeting of local residents who were concerned about the proposal. That meeting was addressed by the Deputy Leader of the Opposition who assured residents that it was official Fianna Fáil policy to oppose the location of custodial accommodation at James's Street.

I think it is a bit much for members of the Opposition party to come into this House to complain about the lack of prison accommodation and then to behave in a shameless fashion for local electoral advantage and oppose the measures which I propose to do exactly what they claim to demand. Unfortunately, the owners of the James's Street premises have now indicated that they are not prepared to sell to my Department because of the local opposition to the project. I hope the Members opposite accept responsibility for the part which they played in that decision. The two-faced approach of Fianna Fáil continues.

As I said earlier, I do not feel the use of the single officers' quarters at Portlaoise for its original purpose is justified at present and I propose to adapt the accommodation to house offenders. The exact nature of its future use has not yet been decided but it may be possible to use the accommodation for male offenders in need of treatment, for example alcoholics, or for low risk female offenders. Fianna Fáil have indicated their opposition to this proposal also and yet continue to complain about the lack of custodial accommodation.

I have no doubt that Fianna Fáil would oppose the siting of a prison anywhere where they felt local electoral advantage could be gained. So be it, but they must realise that to behave in that way and yet expect their protestations about the lack of prison accommodation to be treated as genuine is not on.

The emphasis so far in this debate has been on imprisonment, but it is important that we should provide a range of sanctions to the courts so that we can achieve a situation where people are sent to prison only where it is clearly necessary in the interests of society to do so.

As the House knows, at present the courts have a number of sanctions available to them, but we think primarily of prison sentences or fines. They can also apply suspended sentences and they can recommend that people be put on probation or avail of other schemes of that sort, but one of the most significant developments in this area recently has been the introduction of the community service scheme which I brought into operation at the end of last year. Under the scheme the courts can sentence offenders who would otherwise be committed to prison to do work in the community instead.

I am happy to report to the House that the scheme is working well. Already about 140 orders have been made under the scheme and a further 108 cases have been referred by the courts to the probation and welfare service for assessment of the suitability of offenders for the scheme. In relation to the 108 orders which have been made. I should emphasise that these were all cases where custodial sentences would have been imposed had the community service scheme not been in operation. So not only is the scheme of itself socially desirable, it has also had the benefit of easing the pressure on custodial accommodation.

Again I should like to recommend that scheme to the House. It is worthy of further development. It is a scheme particularly suited to young offenders who are possibly in full time education. It is also suitable for the main breadwinner of the family. There are certain circumstances where the court imposes a sentence and the person is doubly punished because as a result of the conviction he or she can lose a job or be deprived of the opportunity of sitting for the leaving certificate or of completing an AnCO course, or apprenticeship, or whatever training or education course is involved.

One of the advantages of the community order scheme is its great flexibility. A court has to decide, first of all, whether somebody is suitable for the scheme and that is done on the recommendation of the probation and welfare service person. The offender has to agree to engage in the scheme. It has also to be an alternative to a prison sentence. A district justice or a Circuit Court judge can sentence somebody under a community service order as an alternative, for example, to a fine. People can work the number of hours to which they are sentenced at the weekend, for example, or during a holiday period, or after the school closes in the evening, or later in the evening for somebody who is working, or every Saturday for, say, three months. It has that kind of flexibility which allows a person to carry on the normal pattern of life, yet at the same time repay the debt owed to the community. That debt also is repaid in a manner which is appropriate to the crime. Most of the work involves work within the community and it is clear to members of the community that the person is making an effort to repay.

Also, the scheme obviates the need for rehabilitation programmes and lengthy schemes, which sometimes have low enough success rates for reintegrating prisoners into the community, because here the people are not in prison in the first place. They live at home. There is also obviously a great advantage from the cost point of view. It is now costing an enormous amount of money to keep a person in prison, on average about £400 a week. By using a community service order the cost involved is only £7 to £9 a week, which is a huge cost saving to the taxpayer.

I hope that the Whitaker committee will examine further alternatives to imprisonment, because we cannot proceed on the basis that there are a limited number of sanctions available and that for any kind of serious offence everybody ends up in prison. That is not the full answer. We must look at alternatives to continuous imprisonment and examine schemes in operation in other countries, imprisonment at weekends or for set periods of time. Perhaps a short, sharp period of imprisonment might be more effective as a corrective then a long extended period of imprisonment in a gentler regime.

This Government have made strenuous efforts in very difficult circumstances to deal with the numbers of offenders being committed to custody and the success of those efforts can be judged from what I have said here this evening. We will continue to adopt the flexible approach which has been required to deal with this matter and I believe that on the basis of the measures which we have taken and the further measures which we propose, the amendment to the motion which I have put down should be supported.

I am afraid that I have had little support from the party opposite. The only support so far is much lip service and many efforts to obstruct genuine attempts to deal with the situation, but that is not surprising. Given the state of the prison service that I inherited, the Opposition are a little embarrassed about it and are trying to kick up a shower of dust to distract attention from that.

How many more lechers did the Minister let out?

(Limerick East): Deputy Reynolds has mentioned something which I feel I should comment on.

Indeed, the Minister could. He could tell us about the fellow he let out, blame the Garda and send him back in.

(Limerick East): In our prison system, the cases of offenders committed for long term sentences are being kept under continuous review so as to devise appropriate release programmes to reintegrate offenders into the community in a controlled way and in a manner designed to help offenders to have a useful life in the community. Cases of this nature are dealt with by a review committee in the institutions, which include representatives from the various disciplines such as prison staff, welfare officers, psychologists, chaplains and officials from my Department. Account is taken of the views of the Garda Síochána on particular offenders and a release programme is drawn up.

I am concerned that recently some Members opposite have chosen to highlight a particular case where under this system six offenders who had served four years and seven months of sentences of six years, allowing for statutory remission, were released to the supervision of the probation and welfare service. I do not propose to deal here with the merits or otherwise of this case.

Tell us about the political merits.

(Limerick East): To do so would involve releasing confidential information about individual offenders, which would be clearly inappropriate for a Minister for Justice.

Lovely, lovely.

(Limerick East): All I can say is that I shall continue to make reasonable decisions on the basis of information put before me and I shall continue to try, as Deputy Hyland suggested, to rehabilitate suitable offenders on the recommendation of the support services in the prisons, as my predecessors have done.

Mr. Clean.

I welcome the opportunity of contributing to this debate. I was pleased to hear the Minister say earlier that he expected the report from the Whitaker committee very shortly. A comprehensive report of the whole penal system is long overdue. We have not had such a review since the foundation of the State. I hope this committee of experts will come up with many new ways of dealing with offenders in society. We have to look at new and imaginative ways if we are seriously to rid our society of the terrible increase in crime in recent months. It would be wrong of us to play party politics on this issue.

Having spent the last number of weeks canvassing in an urban constituency in the Dublin area, I have no doubt that there is widespread fear and anxiety on the part of all members of the community at the recent increase in the level of crime. It is very sad, as one approaches the homes of elderly people in particular, to note the number of chains and bolts that they now have on their doors. Even in the afternoon they are very afraid to open the door to anybody. That is a very sad thing to see in a country where for so long people took pride in being able to wander freely and leave their doors open and so on, and not be frightened of who might call at any time of the day or evening. In very many cases elderly people are concerned not just that people are taken before the courts to serve their sentences but equally that the proper safeguards are taken by the authorities to ensure that these elderly people have in their homes correct alarm systems and easy access to the Garda and have a comprehensive and correct telephone system. Many do not have that, particularly in rural areas. They are practical ways of helping to allay the fears of the public, particularly our senior citizens.

The recent debate on the whole question of law and order and the need for increased prison accommodation interested me very much. I said two years ago, during the course of the debate on the Criminal Justice Bill, that if we are to continue to deal in the manner in which we dealt in the past with those who offend against society, there will be a very serious accommodation problem. That time has now arrived. When the measure is implemented fully following the introduction of the complaints tribunal, we will see an increase in the number of people sentenced by our courts to places of detention. If we do not look at new ways to deal with the matter we will have a very serious problem and one that must concern all of us.

As a member of the Committee on Crime, Lawlessness and Vandalism recently I had occasion to visit Spike Island and the prison in Cork. In relation to the latter, I was quite distressed to see so much doubling up of the numbers sleeping in cells. Cells that normally accommodated one person are now being used to accommodate two people and cells that might have been used to accommodate three or four are now being used to accommodate up to six people. The educational facilities available to prisoners had to be abolished in the main to improve the accommodation facilities required. I was quite frightened to see that.

Equally, when I visited Spike Island I was not very impressed at what I saw. Despite the fact that it is an open prison I was not surprised to learn subsequently that six prisoners were able to get off the island fairly easily. I should like one point to go from this House, something that concerns the public. People read in the newspapers from time to time, and certainly they read in the newspapers when many press correspondents went to visit Spike Island, of the very luxurious conditions that are supposed to exist there. I should like the public to be assured that that is not the case. Equally, I should like people in the media who have occasion to visit places of detention not to stir up public feeling by writing totally incorrect articles about central heating systems, video recorders and so on. The inaccurate reports I read regarding Spike Island did not do much to make the public feel that their politicians were responding to the serious crime that is occurring.

There are many people in prisons who could be catered for in a more effective way if we adopted other measures. For example, the most recently published statistics regarding prisoners show that in 1983 there were 54 men and two females in prison for drunkenness. I am sure there must be another way of dealing with people who commit such a crime. There were 525 men and three women imprisoned for offences against the Road Traffic Act and, again, there are different ways of treating such people. Six men were imprisoned for offences against the Act dealing with fisheries. Many people are imprisoned for non-payment of fines or because they have not been able to honour hire purchase agreements. Such people are not a danger to society and prison is not a place for them. I should like our legislation to be changed to ensure that the courts have another way of dealing with such offences. I understand that at the moment they have no alternative but to imprison people who commit this kind of crime. That is a shame and is unnecessary. If other measures were used it would provide much needed accommodation for people who commit more serious crimes and who are a real danger to society. These people should have to serve a spell in an institution to ensure that society is protected.

The statistics show that in 1983 some 55 per cent of those serving sentences were serving at least a second sentence. In relation to those in St. Patrick's institution, in 1983 some 40 per cent of those serving a sentence had served a previous sentence. That shows that for many people prison does not rehabilitate them and it does not help to make them better able to cope with society.

I was disappointed recently to hear the Taoiseach in his Fine Gael Ard Fheis speech dismiss the fact that there may be endemic reasons in our society why some people commit serious crime. I know that the vast majority of people who are poor and deprived and who may have a low standard of education never commit a crime but the fact remains that the bulk of those who commit crimes come from poor and deprived backgrounds. They have a low standard of education and in many cases they belong to families who do not care about them. It is time we introduced some legislation to ensure that parents are made responsible for the activities of young teenagers. I am always horrified to see in Dublin city and in the suburbs the number of very young children who are allowed to roam the streets late at night. Nobody seems to care about them: in many cases their parents may be in pubs or are victims of broken marriages. If we do not do something to help these children, many of them will end up in some kind of institution for a large part of their lives because they will offend against society.

It is very sad to see that so many of these young people are now involved in what has become known as joyriding. I am pleased that with the recent measures taken by the Minister that problem seems to have eased somewhat. That is a good thing but as a person who represents a constituency that had a fair amount of joyriding I must say there are two sides to the story. Many youngsters involve themselves in joyriding simply for the fun of it. They endanger themselves and the people they meet and they have to be taken out of society and looked after. Equally, there are those who are unemployed and who see no possible opportunities for themselves in the future and when they see somebody driving around in a Mercedes or a BMW they have an inbuilt resentment towards such a person. While society has to deal with the joyrider who takes a car and who is a danger to himself and to those he meets, equally, society must deal with those who seem to be able to do far better than the people who grow up in the deprived backgrounds to which I referred. Unless we as a country put greater emphasis on helping people in the areas that have severe social problems by providing increased job opportunities, better social services, more social workers and a better liaison with the Garda Síochána, many of the young people from these areas will be destined to spend a large portion of their life in institutions.

Equally, drug-related and alcohol problems account for a significant number of those who are now in prison. These people could be dealt with in a different and better way. Those addicted to drugs or alcohol feed their habit by committing serious crime. In this House and elsewhere we have paid too little attention to this area.

The Minister referred to the alternative he introduced to prison, particularly the alternatives for young offenders. I was very disappointed it took such a long time to introduce the Bill dealing with community services. I am delighted to know that 140 orders have been made under the Bill and I hope many more will be made. Restitution and rehabilitation should be the answer rather than life in an institution. Only those who are a danger to themselves and society should be sent away. What is proposed in the Bill is the best way of rehabilitating a person, of making restitution to society and, in the long term, it is the best way to eliminate so many of the crimes now being committed.

Deputy Hyland referred to capital expenditure for 1983. The Minister estimated he would spent £11.3 million on prison capital projects but he ended up spending less than half that amount. I do not want to go into which Government did more, which Government spent more or which party are more committed. We would not be serving the people we represent if we were to argue on those lines but within the resources available the money could be spent much more wisely. I regret that only about half of the money provided was spent. There could be much greater utilisation of the resources available. All that is required is the application of more common sense and a greater emphasis on the real reasons for so many people committing crime.

Deputy Reynolds interjected to refer to a story that appeared in the Sunday Independent on Sunday last. I have no wish to play party politics with the subject involved except to say that as a female Member of the House I should be horrified to think that anyone who is sentenced for committing a serious sexual offence would be released ahead of time. I am aware of how horrific is the experience of people who have been the victims of such crimes. It takes a long time for the victim to overcome the effects of such an assault. Unless there is overwhelming evidence from the experts who may know better, those found guilty of such crimes should serve their full sentences. They do untold damage not only to the victim but to her family and to everyone else who may be associated with her. About 18 months ago I recall meeting with a woman in my constituency who had been a victim of such a crime and who was experiencing severe nervous problems as a result. Up to the time of the crime she was a normal, stable married woman but she had become a very sick person as a result of the sexual assault.

There are cases in which there is good evidence to suggest that people might be released ahead of time. I am thinking, for instance, of those for whom the opportunity of employment arises or who may be able to embark on training courses. If such persons are not a danger to society and have been sentenced in respect of the less serious offences, flexibility should be applied and they should be allowed return as soon as possible to society. As public representatives there is often much pressure brought to bear on us by the families and friends of prisoners in regard to having them released. Irrespective of which party we belong to, the criteria should be the same in all cases, that is, what in the first instance is in the best interest of society and, secondly, of the person concerned.

Reference is made often to the cost of keeping someone in prison. We are told that the average cost per year is about £23,000 or more than £440 per week while the average cost of keeping a subversive in prison is in the region of £50,000 per year. Undoubtedly, subversives must be kept in prison. Unfortunately there are not more of them serving sentences, having regard to the way in which they have ruined society both North and South and have manipulated so many of our young people. If I may make a plea in advance of the local elections it is that groups or individuals who support these people will not be given any support from the Irish people on June 20. However, the cost involved in keeping people in prison generally could possibly be used in a more efficient and more effective way and in the long term in a better way so far as society is concerned. That is where the answer lies for the future. Whenever there is an increase in crime we tend to make a plea for more prison places or for more gardaí and although these pleas may be responded to, crime continues to increase. Perhaps if we considered more imaginatively some of those who offend we might be in a better position in the long term to help society. We must consider also the provision of more semi-prison or hostel type accommodation where perhaps people might be imprisoned for weekends or in the evenings and would go about their normal business during the weekdays. That kind of prison accommodation would perhaps be a cheaper and better way of dealing with some people whom society considers should be sentenced to institutions.

The whole situation is causing serious problems for those charged with the running of our prisons. From talking with many of them I am aware that they are becoming more disillusioned and concerned with the constant pressure being put on them by reason of the increased numbers being sent to prison. There is a difficult task, too, for those charged with the duty of deciding who should be released in order to provide accommodation for others.

We must not panic in this kind of situation. In a letter to the Committee on Public Expenditure, the Department of Justice indicated that by the end of the century they expected the need for prison places to be of the order of 2,000. We have almost reached that level and we are only half way through the eighties. If we continue at the present rate the more likely requirement by the end of the century will be of the order of 4,000 places. We must ensure that we use the prison accommodation and the resources available in as responsible and efficient a manner as possible. Because there is not adequate prison accommodation we must ensure that those convicted of the most serious crimes and who are considered to be most dangerous are given the places that are available but that there is no early release of anyone who would be considered a danger to society. In many cases people who are a danger to society are a danger also to themselves.

In the Tallaght area we established recently, in conjunction with AnCO and a number of other Government agencies, a workshop where people who had been before the courts in some instances and in other instances people who were considered at risk were taken on to follow a course or a skill for which they were considered suitable. I am very pleased to be able to say that although in existence for less than two years, the project has been a tremendous success. The people who work there tell me of the great enthusiasm the young people in the area have for the work. Small as the project is those involved in running it believe it has led to many of those who have availed of it keeping out of trouble and avoiding situations which would lead to prison sentences.

Throughout the country and especially in the Dublin area there is tremendous fear and anxiety among our people as a result of the present crime levels. The public wish to be reassured that measures will be taken against those who offend, especially those who commit offences against the person. We must reassure all our citizens, but particularly our elderly citizens, that the Government are taking every possible step to ensure that those who attack the elderly, who frighten and terrorise them, will be dealt with adequately in any legislation or in any accommodation that may be provided. If people could really see that something was happening in this area, perhaps they would be a little less frightened and a little more optimistic. It is sad that so many of our people fear that matters will become much worse.

I am delighted that the Whitaker committee will be reporting soon. I trust that that kind of committee which is comprised of people who are experts in their field and who are highly respected will recommend new and more imaginative ways of utilising our prison accommodation. That is what all of us require. In the interim the Minister should make every effort to ensure that the accommodation we have at present is improved, that the refurbishment so necessary in many of our prisons is dealt with as a matter of priority so as to make them into places more humane and caring for our prisoners. Taxpayers would not be reluctant to give the type of money that might be required to ensure that we became a safer society so that in the long term we would rid our society of 90 per cent of the crime rate.

Debate adjourned.
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