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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 13 Jun 1985

Vol. 359 No. 8

Estimates, 1985. - Vote 41: Communications (Revised Estimate).

I move:

That a sum not exceeding £131,488,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of December, 1985, for the salaries and expenses of the Office of the Minister for Communications and of certain other services administered by that Office, for a cost alleviation payment and for payment of certain grants and grants-in-aid.

The economic outlook for the international economy is favourable in a number of key respects. After very strong expansion last year, economic growth in the United States has slowed to a more modest but more sustainable rate, enhancing prospects for continued inflation control. The Japanese economy continues to grow briskly with even lower inflation. Real growth in Europe has been associated with an improvement in the underlying conditions for growth — lower inflation and budget deficits and higher profits and investment. Taken together, the industrialised economies are now experiencing and economic growth rate of between 3 and 3½ per cent, much the same rate as in the second half of 1984.

It must be admitted that there are also a number of unsatisfactory features in the international economy. Unemployment is higher in nearly all countries, and still rising in many. Indeed, the OECD pointed out recently that unemployment in Europe is at its highest rate for more than 50 years. Other features which may jeopardise the upswing in economic activity include high budget deficits in a number of countries, the increased volatility of exchange rates, growing international trade tensions and a still fragile economic and financial situation in many developing countries.

The Irish economy has been performing well by comparison with our trading partners. In 1984, our gross domestic product grew by about 3½ per cent, one of the highest rates in the EC. We have clearly learned to crub inflation quite effectively, as evidenced by the results of the past few years.

The rate was over 23 per cent at the end of 1981; it was down to 6.2 per cent for the year to mid-February 1985. This rate is now lower than that of the UK our main trading partner, and close to the average of our EC partners.

The sustained growth of exports has been particularly encouraging. The growth has been underpinned by exceptionally strong growth in our manufactured exports. Largely as a result of the activities of foreign firms, Ireland's share of export markets in the new industries continued to rise sharply in recent years; other sectors have done less well.

The rapid expansion in exports, coupled with the slower growth, has ensured a continuing improvement in our external account. Indeed, our external trade account has changed from a position of substantial deficit to one of broad balance. The Central Bank has projected a modest surplus for this year.

The encouraging features on the economic front should not cause us to lose sight of problems remaining to be solved. There is no doubt that unemployment is our biggest problem. Despite the improvements in the economy, no significant dent has been made in the number out of work. Nevertheless, there have been some encouraging signs recently, with reductions being recorded in three successive months in the number of people on the live register.

Both the national plan and this year's budget have the objective of improving the climate for job creation. But our room for manoeuvre is limited. We have to continue to tackle our serious budgetary problems. We cannot continue to record high deficits on the current budget. We cannot continue to borrow indiscriminately.

There are constraints, therefore in creating a climate conducive to economic growth and job creation. The national plan proposed a number of special employment creation measures to help improve the job situation. But if a significant dent is to be made in our level of unemployment, all sectors of the community have to "do their bit". Government alone cannot create jobs, particularly if there are to be sustainable jobs.

There is need for significant employment growth in the private non-agricultural sector. As last month's OECD Report on Ireland put it "with agriculture and the public sector accounting for about 45 per cent of total employment, the employment growth in other sectors will have to be twice the likely labour force growth to stabilise the unemployment rate". The task is daunting but with the combination of the employment measures announced by Government, disciplined economic management, a controlled approach to budgetary matters and competitive wage structures, we can do a lot to stimulate the creation of new jobs and to protect existing jobs.

It is against that economic background that I introduce these Estimates.

The Department of Communications, established on 2 January 1984, is now about eighteen months in being. The total expenditure provided for in this Estimate (approximately £131.5 million) shows a decrease of approximately £2 million on the provisional 1984 outturn. While this is not a very big saving, it is significant in the sense that it represents a reduction, rather than an increase, in the level of public expenditure, reflecting the Government's commitment to reducing the burden on the taxpayer, without reducing the level of service to the public.

The present year will see many developments in the transport, broadcasting, telecommunications and postal sectors. This applies particularly on the legislative front. Already under debate in the Dáil or Seanad are the Air Transport Bill; the Road Transport Bill; The Dublin Transport Authority Bill; and the Canals Bill. These Bills will be followed in the near future by the Customs-Free Ports Bill; the Shannon Ports Authority Bill; the Rosslare Harbour Bill; the CIE Re-structurning Bill; the Transport Bill; the Sea Pollution Bill; the Local Radio Bill; and the Broadcasting and Wireless Telegraphy Bill.

This year too will see a Green Paper on National Transport Policy, the first of its kind here. This paper will have two aims, to inform and to consult. It will inform in the sense that it will describe the current position in the various sections of Irish transport and developments already decided. The paper will be consultative in the sense that it will pose for consideration possible changes of direction or emphasis in existing policy and will invite public discussion on these and on transport policy generally.

I do not need to stress the importance of making the best use of our national resources, finding for example, the right balance between monopoly and competition, between public and private transport and between the different transport modes. Developments in the EC also have to be taken into account. I will be surprised if the Green Paper does not provoke quite a deal of comment and controversy and be helpful in reaching conclusions on the course future transport policy should take.

CIE are on a sustained road to recovery. By 1982, there had been thirteen years of losses escalating by a multiple of the rate of inflation. By contrast, 1983 and 1984 have seen a 20 per cent reduction in real terms in the deficit. And so far in 1985 we are on target for a further reduction in the deficit in real terms.

This happy picture is even more dramatic when compared with what the deficit would have been had the trend of the previous fifteen years continued. Moreover, the fact that inflation is down to low single figures and that CIE are still beating it these past two and a half years, is a cause for much encouragement. With the new above-the-line subvention formula there is a good chance that, when CIE's accounts for 1984 are finalised, they will have broken even.

This is good news, not alone for the board, management and workforce of CIE, but also for the taxpayer who has to fund it. While there is no room for complacency, I think it right that these achievements should be recognised and I want to congratulate all in CIE for their efforts.

When I came to office. I said that my first priority for CIE was to create a new environment for it to operate within. What have we done? First, within six months of coming to office this Government decided on a new five-year approach to CIE's finances and to abandon the wishful thinking, the lack of control, the drift, which characterised Government's relationship with CIE for many years past.

The Government formula effectively provided that one-third of CIE's expenditure would be paid by the Government provided that expenditure is reduced in real terms by 2½ per cent per annum up to 1989. That these targets for two years now have been met, and without massive redundancies or cuts in service, is testimony to the wisdom of the approach. Now CIE knows well in advance what their allocation is and can plan to keep within it. Previously, a figure — often bearing no relation to reality — would be notified to CIE two or three weeks before the commencement of the relevant financial year. This lack of notice and lack of reality were constantly rewarded, not surprisingly, by being ignored. As a result CIE's finances had rockted almost out of control.

The improvement now is preceptible and real. In addition, the Government decided last year to taken on responsibility for the interest charges on DART and also to take responsibility for £30 million of CIE's short term borrowings. Provision for implementation of the latter decision will be contained in a short Transport Bill which I will be introducing fairly soon.

These improvements in the financial regime for CIE have been accompained by major investment. CIE now have a new urban bus fleet and a new electrified suburban rail system. In 1983 the go-ahead was given for 124 new mainline rail coaches, many of which are already in service. In addition, the national plan provided for the commencement of the replacement of the rural bus fleet, starting this year and to be completed in three years.

These provisions have been accompained by a major overhaul and strengthening of the board of CIE. The enactment of the Dublin Transport Authority Bill and the Road Transport Bill will be the next steps in the creation of the new environment which I have set out to establish.

A further major step is now urgent and that is the passage of the legislation to reorganise CIE into three operating subsidiaries under a parent board. The legislation is in preparation, will be enacted as soon as possible, and in any event before this year is out.

I feel I should say a few words about the reorganisation for I know that, until it is completed, uncertainty and worry will abound in CIE. This is already the case. Indeed, among some sections in CIE it is leading to resistance. It is important that it should be known that the whole purpose of the reorganisation is not to close CIE, as some pessimists fear, but to ensure its future by organising it in a way best suited to serve the customer whose support is vital to any company's success.

The completion of the reorganisation is in the best interests of the workforce and the travelling public alike. I want to appeal strongly to all in CIE to assist in the reorganisation so as to ensure that recent encouraging trends are continued in the future.

I am very happy to reiterate the Government's decision to approve an increase in CIE wages grade pensions from a maximum of £16.50 per week to a maximum of £34.50 per week. The intention is to supplement normal social welfare payments so that generally CIE workers receive a pension equivalent to two-thirds of their wages when retired. Subject to there being no sustainable objection, it is planned to make these increases payable to 3,900 existing pensioners from 1 July next. This improvement will cost CIE approximately £2 million in a full year. I am delighted that this has been possible, as I know personally many men who have given a lifetime of service to the company.

I should also mention, that in an effort to ensure the continuity of employment at the GAC bus building plant at Shannon, the Government recently decided to reschedule the CIE allocation for bus building in the period covered by the national plan; £10 million from the 1987 allocation for bus acquisition is being brought forward to 1985. This reallocation will maintain employment at GAC for the remainder of 1985.

Before leaving CIE there remains the major problem of their enormous long term borrowings, about which I am concerned and which need careful consideration. Moreover, I must repeat the need for a sustained improvement in industrial relations in Dublin city services. Strikes and threats of strikes are the ruination of the Dublin bus services. If a sustained peace pact could be agreed, I believe a big increase in passengers would be achieved.

The Vote includes an amount of £400,000 under subhead S to defray the running cost in 1985 of the proposed Dublin Transport Authority. In my Second Stage speech on the Bill yesterday, I outlined the structure and functions of the Authority, so I shall not go into detail today on the proposals. I would like to repeat, however, that it will become the road traffic authority for Dublin and will also have important functions in the areas of transport planning and funding and public transport services.

I intend to establish the DTA and to have them in operation as soon as possible following enactment of the Bill. The running costs of the Authority in 1985 will not be permitted to exceed the voted figure of £400,000. This figure is net of the costs of the traffic warden service, which will be transferred to the Authority. The timing of the transfer and the precise number involved have yet to be decided but the transfer will not, in any event, give rise to any net increase in expenditure.

The Authority will take over from the Dublin Transportation Task Force responsibility for the traffic management strategy which the task force have been pursuing in recent years. Subhead R of the Vote contains a provision of £420,000 for this work in 1985. Of this, £66,000 approximately will be incurred on the installation of the system known as Urban Traffic Control. This system involves the computerised co-ordination of traffic signals in the city centre. By optimising the signal timing co-ordination and thereby minimising vehicle stop-starts, UTC improves overall traffic speeds and alleviates congestion.

Outside the UTC area, a bus priority system known as Selective Bus Detection will be implemented on a limited pilot scheme basis in 1985 at a cost of approximately £315,000. SBD is an electronic form of bus priority, through which buses are given priority at signalised junctions. The system involves the use of electronic transponders mounted on buses and detectors located at signalised junctions. While the scope for further buslance of the type already implemented in the Dublin area has become limited, there will be a small number of buslance implemented in 1985, and a sum of £39,000 is provisionally ear-marked for that purpose.

I am sure many Deputies will have read the Road Transport Bill which has completed Second Stage in the Seanad. The new legislation will achieve the completion, on a phased basis over a period of about two years, of the liberalisation of road haulage which was begun in 1971. I am confident that the move away from present quantitative restrictions to a licensing system based solely on qualitative control will improve efficiency and thereby contribute to a reduction in transport costs. This is an important transport reform measure which I will go into in greater detail when the Bill reaches the floor of this House.

The liquidation of Irish Shipping Limited was undoubtedly a major blow to the shipping industry and to the commercial State sector generally. Every possible option was identified and examined in considerable depth before the Government took the decision not to provide additional finance for the company. The Government did not, however, have any real choice in the matter. On the basis of advice from reputable international shipbrokers on the likely trend of freight rates over the period, the total cost to the Exchequer of keeping Irish Shipping Limited going for the next five years would have been about £145 million. Furthermore, even if the Exchequer met this enormous bill, the company would still have had debts of £59 million at the end of 1989 and there were little grounds for expecting that they would be in a position to service them from their own resources.

To put this whole matter in a clear perspective, I would point out that it would have cost the Exchequer over £76,000 per job per year to maintain each job in Irish Shipping Limited for the next five years with no real expectation that the company would be viable at the end of that time. In the circumstances, it would have been economically and socially indefensible to use limited State resources to keep Irish Shipping Limited in operation at such a cost.

The problems of Irish Shipping pensioners were fully considered in the House during the recent debate on a Supplementary Estimate. Pensioners of Irish Shipping who served on Irish ships during World War II have now had the ex gratia element of their pensions restored to them; the ex gratia element had been paid by the company before the appointment of a liquidator by the High Court. I am saddened that legal and other sensitives do not permit me to be more generous with the rest of Irish Shipping Limited's pensioners and former employees.

The B & I company are in serious financial difficulties and have been in a loss making situation since 1979. During the past four years the company incurred losses of over £40 million and had become almost totally dependent on the Exchequer. To enable the company to continue their operations over this period, the Exchequer have had to provide £29 million in equity capital.

It was against this background that I recently effected changes in the chairmanship and management of the company. As Deputies are aware, I have engaged the services of a management consultancy firm for a three year period to review the business and operations of the B & I and to provide a management service for the company. This aspect of the assignment devolves on Mr. Alex Spain, who has taken up position as chairman and managing director of the company.

Mr. Spain will have the support services of the management company and it will be his task, with the agreement of the B & I board and my approval, to identify and effect the measures necessary to restore the company to profitable operation by the end of 1986. In this endeavour, account will be taken of the need to maintain Irish Participation in the provision of cross-channel passenger and freight services.

Expenditure on essential harbour works this year is expected to total £16.029 million, which compares with an outturn of £6.422 million in 1984. The total amount of Exchequer assistance for harbours, including voted and non-voted moneys, is £13.623 million, comprising £9.623 million grant and £4 million Local Loans Fund financing.

The grant allocation includes £4.8 million for the deepwater wharf at Ringa-skiddy in Cork harbour. Work on this project commenced in 1984 and is due for completion in 1986. I will be introducing the Bill to establish a free port at Ringaskiddy during the present Dáil session and I am confident that, when the free port is established and the deepwater wharf is completed, new industry will be attracted to the Cork area and increased traffic will be generated through the port. The Government have recently decided on a financial package for the Dublin Port and Docks Board. The package is comprised of grant assistance, including £3 million in 1985, a State guarantee for borrowings, a requirement for the board to take cost cutting and revenue increasing measures and to dispose of assets. The State assistance is contingent on the conclusion of negotiations which have been under way for some weeks between Dublin Cargo Handling Limited and the dock labour force. Industrial peace at the port is vital if the port is to prosper. I am confident that these measures will restore Dublin port to viability and revive user confidence. As I said on the Adjournment recently, the Government cannot save Dublin port; that is something which can only be achieved by the parties involved —management and staff.

Some time ago I met both management and unions and offered both of them timely advice. The urgency of that advice has regrettably been ignored. I was most concerned, therefore, to hear that notwithstanding the financial help offered by the Government, the negotiations between Dublin Cargo Handling Limited and the unions have run into problems. I do not propose to comment further on those problems at this stage because it would not be helpful for me to do so. All that I will say is that it is imperative that those problems should be resolved very quickly if Dublin Port is to have any future. Finally, I regret very much the opportunism, inaccuracy and dishonesty of Deputy Bertie Ahern's statement last night which is wholly unhelpful in resolving this urgent problem.

As announced in the national plan, the Government have decided that a harbour authority under the aegis of my Department should be set up for Rosslare harbour. The harbour is at present owned by the Fishguard and Rosslare Railways and Harbours Company. Implementation of that decision, involving legislation both here and in the UK, will be effected at the earliest possible date. In the meantime, CIE will continue to be responsible for the management and operation of the harbour and will be pressing ahead with necessary development works. Grant assistance is being made available this year towards the cost of providing passenger handling facilities at Rosslare. In addition, a State grant of £132,000 is being made to the RNLI to cover the cost of improved harbour facilities for the Rosslare lifeboat.

Sligo Harbour Commissioners will receive grant assistance of £470,000 this year in respect of a major dredging scheme at the harbour. This project, which is being fully financed by the Exchequer and is due for completion shortly, will enable the harbour to accommodate larger vessels and will greatly improve its trading capacity. The balance of the grant assistance — £720,000 — is in respect of project at the harbours of Drogheda, Dundalk, Foynes, Tralee and Fenit. The foregoing projects do not include those being financed from the Local Loans Fund, nor do they include projects funded by commercial borrowings or own resources.

About the air companies, I am glad to report that in the year to March 1984, the total group made a profit of £8.5 million before tax. This was a very significant improvement after three years of losses. For the year to March 1985, the board of the companies expect to record a further improved financial result, which will be announced shortly.

Total passengers on the Altantic route in 1984-85 were up 5 per cent on 1983-84. In Europe, scheduled passengers were up 4 per cent but charter pasengers, mainly outbound passengers to sun destinations, were down 20 per cent. In the case of cargo, the airline recorded increased of 12 per cent in Europe and 11 per cent on the Atlantic.

In the current year, Aer Lingus are looking forward to a very good summer due to the pick up in the world economy and the strong US dollar. Overall, the airline expect to carry an extra 5 per cent to 6 per cent of scheduled passengers in 1985-86. Aer Lingus anticipate a growth of 9 per cent in the total number of visitors they will bring into Ireland, with a 14 per cent-15 per cent growth in visitors from the USA, an 8 per cent growth in visitors from Britian and a modest growth of approximately 3 per cent on continental European routes.

The results of the past two years and the growth in passenger numbers projected for the current year are satisfactory, but there is no scope for complacency. The turnaround from losses to profits was an essential first step. Aer Lingus must now redouble their efforts to earn such profits as will enable the aircraft fleet to be re-equipped. Only with a good profit record will the airline be able to attract the funding for fleet replacement.

There are a few aspects I would like to highlight. The Are Lingus ancillary activities, outside the transport of their own passengers and freight, are highly successful. Many of these are overseas such as the Dunfey hotel chain in the United States, the Tara Hotel in London and the Hotel Commodore in Paris. Other ventures involving large scale operations outside Ireland include hospital management projects by PARC and data communications projects by Cara Data Processing, while the Guinness Peat Aviation Group, in which Aer Lingus now hold a 23 per cent shareholding continue as one of the great success stories of Irish aviation.

By end March 1985, the Aer Lingus Programme of ancillary activities had contributed over £100 million net profit to the airline over a ten-year period. This has enabled the airline and their group of companies to maintain and increase total employment in Ireland, while reducing by 1,000 over five years the numbers required for air transport.

In addition to providing maintenance services for other carriers at Dublin Airport, the Aer Lingus activities division has teams of maintenance and flying staff deployed internationally, particularly in Africa and the Caribbean. Its contribution to the advancement of technology in Ireland in a wide range of activities, including the computer field, is immense. It has shown the enterpreneurship and dynamism that we need from all Irish enterprise, whether public or privately owned. With the airline facing massive challenges on the fleet replacement front — irrespective of whether replacement aircraft are to be purchased or leased — it is clear that the contribution which the ancillary activities can make will be crucial.

The second aspect of Aer Lingus I would like to refer to is the North Atlantic operation. We cannot blind ourselves to the fact that the Atlantic operation continues to incur heavy losses and is a major drain on the airline's resources. The cost alleviation payments totalling £1.5 million, of which £4 million is provided for in subhead U, will come to an end next year. No one should underestimate the difficulties of keeping the Atlantic operation going and, if we had any doubts on that score, the recent decision of Transamerican Airlines to terminate their scheduled services is a salutary reminder of these difficulties.

Aer Lingus face major challenges and board, management and staff must strive to make the airline as lean and cost efficient as their major competitors, both on the Atlantic and within Europe. My Department will be engaging with Aer Lingus in a detailed appraisal of the strategies and options open to the national airline, both in terms of the Atlantic situation and the challenge posed by fleet replacement.

In the past few years there has been a growing consumer clamour for greater airline competition and lower air fares within Europe. While this phenomenon was more muted in Ireland than elsewhere in Europe, the publication last June of the Air Transport Bill, 1984, provided a domestic focus for a welcome debate on competition and regulation in the air transport sector. I have made a number of statement in recent months in defence of the Bill and in support of the strategic need for effective Government control of airline activity.

However, I have also made it clear that I have been consistently in favour of greater competition, particularly within Europe. In the ongoing debate in this area, I believe that many commentators have consistently overlooked the fact that my regulatory functions, including those of fares approval, can be applied and have been applied by me to create a more competitive environment. I do not propose to elaborate in any greater detail on this subject now, as the matter is being exhaustively debated on Committee Stage of the Air Transport Bill currently before the House.

Aer Rianta's management of the three State airport has been one of the less difficult sports of recent years. The company have turned in quite good trading results and I am happy to report that this trend has continued with the handling over to the Exchequer of a surplus of £8 million in 1984, followed by a further £1 million in the early days of 1985. These results have been achieved despite rather sluggish passenger traffic trends and owe much to the success of the company in trimming their costs. However, no allowance is made for depreciation or interest charges and more careful analysis prompts the question as to whether Aer Rianta could do better.

Dublin Airport contribute some 70 per cent of the Aer Rianta surplus. In 1984 that contribution came to £7.4 million. However, traffic numbers at Dublin are static and this is a matter for some concern, particularly in the light of the substantial investment in a new replacement runway announced in the national plan.

Shannon Airport have recovered from the losses of the 1979-82 period and turned in a surplus of £3.3 million last year. The success of the Aeroflot re-fuelling facility, growth in US visitor numbers, expansion of mail order and duty free sales, and the promotion of Shannon as a technical stopping point for re-fuelling, catering, etc., have all contributed to the turnaround. Tight cost control has also made its contribution. The 1984 results from Cork were also encouraging, with losses being reduced from a 1983 level of £728,000 to £72,000. Further concentration on securing cost economies and widening of the traffic base through Aer Rianta's Cork marketing initiative should lead to a surplus at Cork for the first time since the airport was opened in 1961.

However, as I have said, in looking at the company's results, regard must be had to the fact that no provision is included for interest or depreciation since all the capital assets have been provided by the Exchequer. On the basis of national provisions prepared in my Department, such charges amounted to £4.7 million in 1984. The present arrangements do not provide an effective yardstick by which Aer Rianta's financial performance can be measured. I have, therefore, set up a small review group to consider what changes should be made in the company's status or financial structure.

I am allocating a total of £4.1 million for capital works at the State airports this year as compared with expenditure of £2.4 million in 1984. Provision has been made for commencement of work on the new runway at Dublin Airport, the largest State airport project to be undertaken for sometime.

Apart from the runway project, a number of airport constructional works and items of equipment, including improvements in passenger and cargo facilities and the replacement of firefighting facilities, will be provided.

The Estimate includes an allocation of £750,000 for regional-local airports, the bulk of which is earmarked for regional airport development at Galway. That particular project was to have commenced last year but, because of a number of problems encountered by the promoters, it has not yet started. A condition of the grant commitment for the project is that there will be a local contribution of 25 per cent of the total capital cost.

Some £12 million in Exchequer grant assistance has been provided for regional-local airport development in recent years, in contrast with local contributions amounting to only £0.4 million. In some instances there was no local contribution and I have grave reservations about the merits of some of the projects which were grant-aided. I am accordingly carrying out a detailed policy review in this area.

I am making an allocation of £3.05 million to cover the cost of electronic navigation and communications equipment for civil aviation and the marine coast stations. This equipment is required in order to ensure the safety and regularity of civil aviation and to continue to meet our international obligations. The principal new projects that will commence during 1985 are two instrument landing systems for Dublin Airport and one instrument landing system for Cork Airport. New reserve VHF air-ground communications systems will be provided at Dublin and Shannon Airports during 1985 and a consultant is drafting specifications for new operational and stand-by communications systems at both airports.

Last March an electrical fault in a component damaged the operational and stand-by communications systems at Dublin Airport. While the reserve system remained available it was decided to close the airport for half an hour until the extent of the damage had been assessed. At no stage was there a risk to aircraft.

Over the past four years the total expenditure on electronic equipment was £7.63 million; the total amount originally sanctioned was £9.28 million. This underspending, which did not give rise to unsafe aircraft operations, was primarily due to staffing problems which included staff association objections to the engagement of outside consultants. As these objections have since been relaxed it is hoped to expend virtually all of the 1985 allocation during the year. I am urgently considering how an audit might be carried out on the performance of the various aviation technical services so as to obviate past difficulties.

It is expected that the Protocol amending the Eurocontrol Convention will be ratified by all the member states before the end of 1985. When the amended Convention comes into force we will assume ownership of the Eurocontrol facilities in Ireland. In this context I would wish to tell Deputies that the replacement secondary surveillance radar facility at Woodcock Hill, Shannon, which it is hoped to have in operational service during the next couple of months, will be one of the Eurocontrol facilities to be transfered to Ireland.

As the House is aware, I introduced a licensing and bonding scheme for the travel trade in November 1983. From that date it is illegal to trade as a tour operator or travel agent without a licence under the Transport (Tour Operators and Travel Agents) Act, 1982. That Act provides for severe penalties for illegal trading and other offences. The new arrangements represent a significant development in the area of consumer protection for persons travelling abroad.

It was fortunate that the scheme was in operation in 1984, which proved to be a very difficult year for the travel trade. Capacity for overseas holidays greatly exceeded demand and, in an effort to stimulate traffic growth, some members of the trade resorted to the sale of holiday packages at uneconomic rates. In terms of earnings the results were disappointing and cash flow problems were experienced.

A total of five travel firms were unable to meet their obligations to their customers under overseas travel contracts during the second half of 1984 and the statutory rescue arrangements had to be brought into operation. Happily, the arrangements worked out satisfactorily. In that regard my Department received ready help and co-operation not only from the travel trade itself but also from airlines, the bond guarantors and other interests. I owe a word of praise and thanks to all concerned.

Over 2,000 people whose holidays might otherwise have been seriously disrupted were enabled to complete their holidays. In two cases, the bond moneys were inadequate so recourse was had to the Travellers' Protection Fund established to supplement the rescue funds available under the bonding arrangements.

Bond moneys totalling £243,000, supplemented by £82,000 from the Travellers' Protection Fund, were disbursed to date. The final costs of the rescue arrangements are not yet known, as processing of a number of claims has yet to be finalised. The amount in the fund at a recent date was in excess of £1.3 million.

The travel trade is naturally very anxious to avoid a recurrence of last year's problems and is aiming to ensure that available capacity will be related more closely to market demand. This problem was discussed with the Spanish Civil Aviation Authorities last January and both sides agreed that a 10 per cent cutback in 1985 on the excessive capacity provided in 1984 to Spain, the biggest market, was necessary. Subsequently, the airlines agreed on their respective levels of participation in the market for 1985. Further voluntary capacity cutbacks to Spain have since been made by the airlines, as a result of which capacity in 1985 will be at least 30 per cent below that of 1984. I am hopeful that these cutbacks will eliminate in 1985 the instability which characterised tour operators' activities last year.

The Meteorological Service have plans for the replacement over the next five years of some of the larger items of their computer and technical equipment which is now nearing the end of its useful life. A start on this programme is being made this year.

An Post, the semi-State body with responsibility for the operation of the Irish postal service, is just over a year old. The company is one of the largest employers in the State, providing employment directly or indirectly for nearly 11,000 people spread over 95 main offices and 2,150 sub-post offices. The strategy adopted by the company, and to which I have assented, is one of growth within a cost-containment programme, involving vigorous marketing with moderation in postal rate increases. The overall objective of the company is to make the post more competitive with a view to increasing postal volumes and achieving financial autonomy for the postal service at the earliest possible date.

From the outset, An Post have caught the public imagination through a series of well planned marketing initiatives such as the Penny Post operation and the St. Patrick's Day card ideas. Other initiatives which have helped to heighten the corporate identity of the new postal company include the new publicity post scheme for unaddressed advertising material, the special 17p Christmas stamp and the love stamp scheme for St. Valentine's Day.

The accounts for the first year of operation of the company have just been published. They show a loss of £5.37 million for the year, before allowing for the £5 million Exchequer grant provided in 1984. This was a creditable performance and better than had been forecast and I congratulate the company on it.

The long-standing financial target of the postal service was to break even, taking one year with another, and that was broadly achieved in the period up to 1978. Thereafter, following the prolonged strike in 1979, heavy losses were incurred. However, following the very steep increases in charges in 1981-82, and a slowing down in the rate of pay increases, the losses in the service were brought more under control. Provision was, neverthless, made in the 1984 Estimate for payment of a £5 million grant to An Post and this was duly paid.

The financial performance of the postal service in recent years and its prospects were reviewed in the context of the national plan and the Government decided that, in the light of these and of the difficult position of the public finances generally, financial support for the postal service over the period of the plan should be limited to the provision of £4 million equity capital in 1985 and £3 million in 1986.

Irish postal charges have been regarded as high by international standards, although they are becoming less so as a result of having been kept unchanged between April 1982 and February 1985. An Post are aware of the importance of maintaining this Government's policy of moderation in postal rate increases so as to increase the volume of traffic carried and so make maximum use of their resources.

A balance must, therefore, be struck between price moderation and the achievement of financial autonomy. With these objectives in mind, I approved of proposals by An Post for adjustments in the postal tariffs structure with effect from February last. The principal attraction of the new package is that the basic letter charges at 22p and 26p, which affect the bulk of postal users, will remain unchanged for the fourth year in succession—something I have been insisting on since I became Minister—while postage to other EC states will actually be reduced to domestic levels in the interests of trade and business. Increases—where they occur — are concentrated in letters over 20 grammes, non-standard items and parcels. In rationalising rates and bringing them into line with pricing structures in other EC countries, some charges had to be increased substantially, but this was inevitable and reflected the cost of handling the types of mail in question.

An Post have clearly shown their capacity to innovate. This will be an essential requirement for the future as the postal service will face competition from alternative message transmission system such as electronic mail and from new electronic fund transfer systems. I know that An Post have under review what action they should take within their overall legislative mandate to counter these threats, take advantage of the opportunities they present and expand business generally. I expect the results of that consideration will become evident over the next year.

Overall, the operations of An Post in their first year have vindicated the Government's decision to entrust the postal service to a new State-sponsered body. My impression is that there has been a perceptible shift of public opinion in favour of An Post in recognition of the work and initiatives undertaken by the new company, and they are to be congratulated on their achievements.

In the period since their establishment in January 1984, Bord Telecom Éireann have pressed ahead with improving the telecommunications services. Last year was a record one in terms of provision of service to customers. Over 70,000 telephone connections were made, and the waiting lists were greatly reduced, particularly for data services. The position has now been reached where telephone service is freely available over most of the country, the main exceptions being parts of Dublin and parts of the Sligo region; the waiting lists in these areas are being reduced progressively.

Improvement of the STD service and repair service, the conversion of manual exchanges to automatic working and expansion and development of the network were also continued. A new high speed data service was introduced and an automatic telephone service for use in cars in the Dublin area will be available shortly.

I would like to congratulate the board, management and staff of the company on their achievements in the first year. But the job of providing a high quality telephone service nationally is not yet finished and upgrading and expansion of the service is a continuing process, particularly when technology is developing so quickly.

The company have also been striving to make the business more customeroriented and have made a number of improvements, for example in the customer billing area where a Freephone service has been introduced to make it easy for customers to get information about their telephone bills. The company are also ordering equipment to enable detailed billing of automatic calls to be provided where customers require that.

The legislation establishing the company envisaged that the company's monopoly would end at a terminal point in the subscribers' premises and that there would be competition in the supply of equipment beyond that point. It is the intention to implement this change on a phased basis over the next year or so.

When the terms on which BTE was to be established were being settled, it was decided that £355 million of the debt capital made available by the Exchequer for development of the services should be converted to equity. This was on the basis that, over a period of ten years from vesting, the company would pay dividends on the capital equal to the annuities that would have been paid if it had continued to be treated as debt capital. In practice, of course, the Exchequer has to continue to service this debt.

When drawing up the national plan last autumn, the Government were faced with the alternatives of increasing taxation to service this debt or requiring BTE to make the necessary contributions in a situation where Government expenditure had already been trimmed to the maximum, prudent extent. Having weighed these alternatives the Government concluded, reluctantly, that BTE should be required to make the necessary contributions. In coming to that decision, the Government believed it was more equitable that telephone users should meet these costs in the short term rather than the public at large, and I believe the public generally will agree that this was the proper course.

The company will be given full credit, at current net value terms for these contributions against the debt capital taken over by BTE from the Exchequer. The net effect for the company is that, over time, they will be fully compensated for these payments and they will cost the company nothing. Much of the publicity about these contributions has been ill-informed and the former chief executive was wrong to so consistently enter into public controversy in a manner that would not be tolerated in any private sector group.

As a result of the heavy investment in the service in recent years, at a time of high costs, telephone charges in this country are high by international standards. However, there was no increase in charges between April 1983 and April 1985 and the increases, averaging 7½ per cent from last April, were well below the level of inflation. The aim of the company is to keep increases within the rate of inflation and I would hope they will be able to do this consistently and so make charges here more competitive.

The company's accounts for the first 15 months of their operations are not yet available but it is expected that, after allowing for interest and depreciation, they will show a heavy loss over the period as they have done in recent years. With the development period coming to and end, however, the company should move steadily into profits. Telecommunications are a growth service and I believe they have a very encouraging future.

Overall, on the telecommunications side, much has been achieved but there is still some way to go before the service and all its facilities are in the satisfactory state the chairman of the company and I would wish. However, I have no doubt that BTE's future is a very bright one.

In the major statement on broadcasting matters I issued last March, I reviewed most aspects of broadcasting, both radio and television, and developments in prospect. I also touched on a number of these in the course of debate in the House in March. I do not propose, therefore, to dwell in detail on them at this stage but it might be helpful to Deputies, however, if I were to refer briefly to them.

The changes and developments I envisaged then were as follows: a much greater availability of frequencies over the next six years; the establishment of an interim Local Radio Commission; the introduction of a Local Radio Bill; the introduction of a Wireless Telegraphy Bill; the publication of the Cable TV Systems Report; receipt of recommendations from the the inter-departmental committee on the allocation of a satellite franchise, and arranging a consultancy examination of RTE. I propose to comment only on those matters where there have been developments since then.

An interim local radio commission, under the chairmanship of Dr. Colm Ó hEocha, has been established to prepare the way for the speedy introduction of legal local radio when the legislation is enacted. The commission is a highly competent one and it has been active in undertaking the task entrusted to it. I have every confidence that the interim commission will do a first-class job. As the Taoiseach has indicated in replies to questions here in the Dáil, it is the intention to proceed with the Local Radio Bill within the next few weeks and I would hope that it will be possible to have it enacted before the summer recess. Some indications have been given publicly of the form the legislation is likely to take but, as it has not yet been approved fully and circulated, it would be inappropriate to be speculating on its terms at this stage. Moreover, the House will have the opportunity of debating the proposals fully when the Bill is under discussion.

The new Broadcasting and Wireless Telegraphy Bill, providing for the updating of existing penalties and the introduction of some new ones, has been drafted and will be circulated at the same time as the Local Radio Bill. When these bills are both enacted, it will enable firm action to be taken to stamp out once and for all illegal broadcasting, and to have order restored to the airwaves.

The consultants to whom I referred in the statement issued last March were duly appointed and began their work on 6 May. It is expected that they will complete their assignment next September.

A new RTE Authority was appointed recently for a five year period beginning on 1 June 1985. In discussion in the House last March, the Taoiseach made it clear that appointments to the new Authority would be based on the merit and not on political acciliations. The appointments bear this out and have been accepted by the public as such.

There should, of course, be no question of debarring those involved in politics from appointments to State boards simply because they are engaged in politics. That would not be in the national interest or fair to those involved in politics. But what is critical is that persons should not be appointed to State boards simply because of their political affiliations and without regard to whether they are the most suitable available for these jobs. Suitability for the duties involved must be the determining factor and this was the criterion applied in the recent appointments to the RTE Authority, as it has been in other State board appointments by this Government.

An acting Director General was appointed in RTE last April for a period of six months. It is expected that the consultants will have reported and conclusions will have been reached by then on the future corporate structure of RTE and it should be possible to decide what are the qualifications needed for the top post in the organisation in the years ahead and to make a longer term appointment. The Government and I were accused last March of acting for political reasons when I asked the Authority not to nominate anybody for a long term appointment pending the completion of the consultancy study. It was said at the time by the Opposition that the reason for this action was that the Government man would not be nominated by the Authority. I want to make it clear, beyond any possibility of misunderstanding, that neither the Government nor I had our "own man". My concern then was and my concern now is and in the future will be, to discharge my statutory obligations by ensuring that the person most likely to be able to discharge the onerous duties, of Director General of RTE is appointed, in the interests of the future of broadcasting.

I would hope that, when the recommendations of the consultants have been considered and acted upon and when the Authority then seek my consent for a long term appointment of Director General, I will be able to give my consent to the person proposed by the Authority. I very much regret that this sensitive appointment, which should clearly be seen to be above party politics, if the occupant of the post is to be able to discharge the duties to maximum effect, should have been brought into the political arena by the Opposition. As long as I am Minister no political interference, from any side of the House or from outside it will be allowed to infiltrate RTE.

The report of the Cablesystems Committee which was chaired by Mrs. Margaret Downes was published last February and interested parties were given three months in which to make their views on the recommendations in the report known to the Department. That period expired on 31 May and the various recommendations will now be studied and action taken on them. The report, as expected, raises a number of fundamental issues in relation to the transmission of programmes over cable systems, which could have major financial, industrial and social implications. It is likely to be quite some time therefore before conclusions are reached on the major recommendations in the report.

The interdepartmental committee established to oversee the invitation of tenders for a direct broadcasting satellite (DBS) system and to examine the proposals received submitted their report to me recently. I expect to submit the matter to the Government for decision shortly. I do not propose therefore to comment in detail on the matter at this stage, but it is only fair to Deputies to let them know that there has been a slowing down worldwide in the provision of DBS systems and that the euphoria associated with DBS some two to three years ago has been replaced by the legislation that DBS is a very expensive, high risk venture.

It will be clear from what I have said that, apart from the services provided by my Department, I also have general responsibility for seven of the commercial State bodies. These bodies employ about 60,000 people, have a total turnover of nearly £1,500 million and total capital employed of over £1,900 million. It is obviously of prime importance that resources of this magnitude, both in terms of personnel and assets, should be used to the best advantage. That is the policy I have been following since I became Minister.

I have not interfered in operational matters and I have ensured that only people of the highest calibre have been appointed to the boards. I have improved communications with the State bodies by regular meetings with the chairmen, initiating a series of twice yearly meetings with each board, and arranging to have regular reports from each State body throughout the year. These arrangements supplement the system of five-year corporate plans and new investment criteria which the Government have introduced for all commerical State bodies.

I am firmly committed to the maintenance and expansion of public enterprise. But I want to make it clear that I do so only on the basis that it is operated efficiently: public enterprise is not, and cannot, be a licence for inefficiency, restrictive practies or disregard for customers' needs.

There is, of course, no fundamental reason why public enterprise should not be as efficient as the private sector, but some appear to think that public enterprise is there for the benefit of those working in it, without having to give value for money or ensure that the customer comes first. So far as I am concerned, if there are restrictive practices, failure to provide uninterrupted service, lack of effort or disregard for the customer, continued public ownership of the particular enterprise must come into question.

The best way to ensure continuation of public enterprise is to have it efficient. Under the arrangements I have outlined, I am confident that we will have an efficient and expanding public enterprise sector that will serve the best interests of the nation.

I commend these Estimates to the House. The signs of this efficiency are there in all the State companies for which I have responsibility. CIE's losses have fallen for two years in a row and are destined to fall again this year. Aer Lingus, having been in losses, were back in profit last year and expect increased profits this year. Aer Rianta's surpluses have increased. An Post have halved the losses of the preceding year and Bord Telecom are doing well. That is the way I intend to keep the companies for which I am responsible.

I had expected that the Minister would end his contribution with the words: "I commend this Estimate to the House". I want to put on record that we are opposing this Estimate to a vote which, as the Chair announced, will take place on 26 June. I am doing this because of dissatisfaction on this side of the House with the general handling of the Department by the Minister in relation to Irish Shipping with their Irish Continental Line, the B & I and the fact that the capital city's deep sea facilities in the port are at risk. If we are to believe the statement issued the facilities will close down by next Friday. I am opposed to the Estimate on the basis of non-clarification of what is happening to the ICL or Belfast Ferries and we are not at all satisfied with the way the Minister has handled Telecom Éireann. It is significant that it was not until page 39 of his 40 page speech that the Minister said he was responsible for State bodies that employed 60,000 people, had a turnover of £1,500 million and a total capital employed of £1,900 million. The Minister elbowed that very important part of his Department's activity into a corner in his mammoth speech.

The Minister went on to say that it was obviously of prime importance — prime importance to me is not indicated by picking page 39 for dealing with this area of his Department's responsibility and putting it into one or two paragraphs— that resources of this magnitude in terms of personnel and assets should be used to the best advantage. He went on to say that he was committed to the maintenance and expansion of public enterprise. It is possible that that little paragraph is a pourboire for the Labour Party. The Minister said he wanted to make it clear that he did so only on the basis that it is operated efficiently. He said that public enterprise was not and cannot be a licence for inefficiency, restrictive practices or disregard for customers' needs. I know where the Minister got that statement— from the Fianna Fáil policy document, The Way Forward. Almost the exact words are contained in that document. The Minister changed them around a little but the sentiments and the substance of the meaning are the same.

The Minister went on to say that there was no fundamental reason why public enterprise should not be as efficient as the private sector and I agree with him on that. I agree with him in supporting public enterprise and that some people may think that a State company is a form of bonanza that does not need to apply the highest and strictes standards of efficiency. That idea may have got round but, for the most part, chief executives, and the people involved in running public enterprises, are committed to the type of efficiency which one is led to believe is available across the board in private enterprise.

My colleague, Deputy Leyden, will be dealing mainly with telecommunications and An Post but I should like to make a few comments on Telecom Éireann. I was involved heavily in making the financial arrangements for the transfer and in putting the legislation together. The House will recall that I took the Bill through its Second Stage in the House. I recent very much the attack which the Minister made on the former chief executive of Telecom Éireann. He is not in the House to defend himself. He is a man with an international reputation for efficiency. The chairman of Telecom Éireann indicated to me at the time we succeeded in getting this person that we were luckly to get a man from IBM to take over that chore. For that reason the Minister's remarks are unworthy of him in relation to somebody who has given good service to his board during the time he was here. It is the country's loss that the chief executive has decided not to continue in the office for a further period, particularly for the teething period of Telecom Éireann. I want to nail another lie.

I am not saying that this lie was pepetrated in the House. The Chair jumped me. Fianna Fáil have been charged with responsibility for the levy which is being extracted from Telecom Éireann. I was involved in the arrangements and particularly in the establishment of the debt equity ratio for the new board. At that time the chairman and the acting chief executive were not satisfied with what I could get for them, but in the end I convinced them that they would have to live within it. They accepted that they would and should live within that financial arrangement. I want to nail as a lie any allegation that the money which is being extracted from Telecom Éireann now by the Government is being extracted on foot of some arrangement made by the Fianna Fáil Government at the time the financial conditions were being laid down for the transfer. Telecom Éireann, while they were not satisfied with the arrangement, said they would work it. I understand, and this nails the lie down even firmer, that those conditions were written into two separate and distinct corporate plans by Telecom Éireann. Obiviously, they were accepted as being the arrangement that was made.

I should like to refer to various propaganda set prices that we have been subjected to in this area. For a period from the early seventies to the early eighties telephone users paid £1.5 billion for the service. In that period an extra £300 million was received for telephone development from various sources in Europe and elsewhere. I want the Minister to confirm to me how much was invested over that period in telephone development. I can assure the House, if my figures are correct, that it fell far short of the amount of money I have just mentioned.

One of the aggravating things was that the Department of Finance could get funding from Europe for telephone development at a certain rate of interest but before it was used by the then Department of Posts and Telegraphs, the Department of Finance charged an extra percentage to the Department getting the money, in my opinion dubious even in economics and immoral as far as the treatment of the customer and the citizen is concerned.

I am not going into any more details about what money was paid in 1984 and the acceptence by Telecom Éireann that this was to cater for 1985. I am prompted to say this by an unprovoked and totally indefensible attack by the Minister on the former chief executive of Telecom Éireann.

Deputy Wilson should read what I said.

I will read it into the record of the House. "Much of the publicity about these contributions has been ill-informed and the former chief executive was wrong to so consistently enter into public controversy in a manner that would not be tolerated in any private sector group". What exactly does that mean? If a man is charged with the responsibility of being chief executive of such an important organisation as Telecom Éireann, is he not entitled to speak the truth as he sees it? I think he is and, if this House subscribed to any other philosophy, then this House has gone down a very slippery slope.

As far as funding is concerned, ITI was set up during the ministry of Deputy Reynolds and, as far as capital funding is concerned, the ITI are bearing the major share in that investment. Anger advises me not to go any further along that line, but I cannot remain in this House listening to the Minister criticising a distinguished public servant whose service to this country will be remembered, whose services we were lucky to get and who, in future, will be one of the leading men in international business.

I will take a Cook's tour through the Minister's speech before I get down to specific areas. The Minister started by giving a conspectus of the economic situation and the background against which the activities of his Department take place. He referred to the boom in the United States of America and said it was tapering off. That boom did not affect our economy in the way many people hoped. It did not show itself in increased employment here. The most telling impact it had on us was that it enticed thousands of our young people — I am not exaggerating — from our universities, regional technical colleges and national institutes for higher education to New York and Boston over the past few years. These were the people we led to study electronics and computer subjects saying we would provide the type of industry which would cater for them. Many of these young people I have met are very disillusioned and cynical about the exercise which was imposed on them.

The lesson to draw from that is that politicians should not make foolish promises which they have no possibility of keeping——

Deputy Kelly please.

I will accept what Deputy Kelly says to be the truth. There is a reference in the Minister's statement to boosted exports. The House knows as well as I do that those exports come from the electronics field and the chemical industry.

A passing reference only.

I will not go into any great detail on it. Those were the areas we told young people to prepare for. Last year the Minister for Finance thought there was wealth in the country, but when he looked at the books more closely it had gone elsewhere and we had a big row in this House about the black hole. I want to tell the House that is the only impact the economic boom in the United States has on this country.

At the beginning of his speech the Minister took us on a short economic tour. He said: "The rate was over 23 per cent at the end of 1981; it was down to 6.2 per cent for the year to mid-February 1985", but when he spoke of increases in charges near the end of his speech he said: "However, there was no increase in charges between April 1983 and April 1985, and the increases, averaging 7½ per cent, from last April were well below the level of inflation". the Minister should get his officials to look at this and come to a serious decision on whether 7.5 per cent is greater or less than 6.2 per cent.

The Deputy does not seem to understand that this is referring to two years' inflation.

The Minister said: "There was no increase in charges between April 1983 and April 1985, and the increases, averaging 7½ per cent, from last April were well below the level of inflation". Does he mean at that time?

For the period.

That is not quite clear. At the beginning of his speech the Minister referred to the unemployment problem. He said, "there have been some encouraging signs recently, with reductions being recorded in three successive months in the number of people on the live register". That is a welcome feature but I submit that there should be a closer examination of where the improvement has taken place. In all the Central Statistics Office bulletins I receive there is an indication of how many people unemployed are under 25 years of age. If we examine the figures we will see there is a heavy impact there mainly due to the schemes being developed, which are welcomed, but they are not making any impact in any real sense on long term unemployment. There is no point in using them as a propaganda excercise.

The Minister said: "if a significant dent is to be made in our level of unemployment, all sectors of the community have to `do their bit'. Government alone cannot create jobs, particularly if there are to be sustainable jobs". That is precisely what I mean when I say that the figures from the Central Statistics Office must be looked at cautiously. There must be a climate of confidence to induce investment and that, I am afraid, we have not got at the moment.

With regard to CIE, I have mixed feelings as to whether I should welcome the euphoria of the Minister's speech or be slightly more cautious in our approach. From the breakdown in the Book of Estimates, we have an indication that £80 million is still required to subsidise the railway system. In this House there has always been general agreement that we must have a rail system. We have never really got down to examining how extensive it should be, or on what basis it should be run. Obviously, the hope that it would be able to run profitably has faded and experience in other countries would indicate that this is very difficult to achieve at present. Even super-efficient US companies, in a country where there are areas with high density of population, are finding it difficult to make money on railways.

There are vast areas of this country which have no rail system whatsoever. A natural resentment is felt by citizens in those areas who are helping to subsidise a service for others. Those areas in which the railways have been withdrawn for some time should get special consideration in the transport field. There was a great air of promise when the railways were first withdrawn that special attention would be given to roads and bus services. People no longer believe that to be so. In fact, a substantial case could be made that development is taking place where the best service, no matter what it is, is available at present. To those who have, all the time more is being given and where services were withdrawn no attention is being paid by way of investment.

The chairman of CIE made a statement that he would abolish the freight sector of CIE if it had not by a certain date begun to make a profit. That is a useful stimulus to that sector which in the past has had some of its losses attributed, unfairly, to the railways. I spoke about this already in the House on a number of occasions. I have received complaints from people in the private haulier business that CIE have an unfair advantage in competition, in that they are operating a subsidised company. Therefore, they could give quotations which undercut the private sector. The private man running his own trucking business has to think of his bank manager, what he gets for the service and what it costs to provide it. I have a number of letters of complaint by people pleading in their own cause. One had to approach what they say with a certain caution, but in at least one instance I was convinced that there was an unfair quotation and that CIE could not, in fact, provide the service without aid from their general subsidy.

The Minister referred to GAC at Shannon. GAC succeeded the Bombardier company in the assembly of buses at Shannon. What is the legal relationship between GAC and CIE? Is it the same as that which obtained between Bombardier and CIE? CIE apparently own the premises and all the equipment there and Bombardier had the use of premises and equipment and sold the buses to CIE. I put down a question on this matter and it was refused on the basis that the Minister had no responsibility in the matter. This is a common retort when one puts down a question. I thought we were over that. It was a fair reply when semi-State bodies were making a profit and when this House had not to be asked for money to support them.

When was that?

As far as Irish Shipping are concerned, for 15 years up to 1983.

Surely the only instance.

There were others — Aer Lingus, and so on. I shall not go into details now. I recognise the source of the Deputy's cynicism.

I do not think the Deputy is right. He is invoking a golden age that never existed.

I am not invoking a golden age. I am simply saying there was a time when certain semi-State companies were making a profit and when this House was not asked to subsidise them or, if they were looking for money, they were looking for it in the money markets. When this House is asked, in time of crisis, to supply money, then this House shares some of the blame if things go wrong but it is not entitled to the information. That is the only point that I am making as far as this and other companies are concerned. I have a list of very courteous letters from the Ceann Comhairle's office refusing to accept questions on the basis that there is no ministerial responsibility.

I believe those are done by word processors now. The courtesy is built into the programme.

I do not think that is so, because of our personal relationship. My letters do not smell or smack of the type of process Deputy Kelly is talking about. I think there is a personal touch there. I attribute that to the fact that the Ceann Comhairle and I were born, if not on the selfsame hill, very near to each other.

What is the general productivity at Shannon in regard to GAC? What is the productivity in the school bus field at the moment? Would the Minister make some comment on those in his reply? When I was in the Department for eight or nine months, or so, there was strong talk from Bombardier about developing an export business in Shannon to exotic places like Baghdad and Cairo. I believed them, but was waiting for results.

I can tell the Deputy that the Dublin fleet of Bombardier buses closely resembles those operating in Baghdad.

The Deputy is very observant. That company did have one model operating——

They were seen more often stationary than in motion, with the back seats in an inverted V behind them on the streets.

I think the Deputy is not being quite fair to the Bombardier bus.

Deputy Wilson, without interruption.

I did a lot of my research among those who operated them and they indicated to me that they were reasonably well satisfied. The general belief was that their availability, which is very important, was about 92 per cent. I am talking now about the end of 1982. With regard to what is happening in the export area, I read an article in which it was stated that GAC might be building buses for a company in the United Kingdom. I should like to hear from the Minister if there have been any developments in that connection.

The Minister has indicated that he will be bringing in fundamental and "permanent"— I put that word in inverted commas — legislation to deal with the three companies. One will cover the Dublin city services, one will deal with provincial bus services and one will deal with the railways. We will await the legislation with interest. The one point I should like to make at this stage is that when the Minister is putting the legislation together it would be desirable that CIE should not be in a position where they will have an unchallenged monopoly and where they can operate without a sense of justice vis-à-vis other people in the transport business. I made that point already so far as the freight section was concerned.

The Minister was euphoric about CIE, particularly with regard to finances. It may be a good propaganda exercise. It may be a good thing to try to instil some confidence in them now that they have a new chairman chief executive and when they are starting out on a new road. When the Minister introduced the Dublin Transport Authority Bill yesterday he said he expected that industrial relations should improve when there are three smaller companies dealing with the workforce. Again, one awaits with interest to see if the Minister's expectations will be fulfilled. It should be possible when one is dealing on a smaller scale to keep more in touch with industrial relations.

People are wondering whether the dispersed system of management which obtains at the moment will be dispensed with by the Minister. Is it his intention to dismantle some of the regional management structures that exist at present? I should like him to give some indication of his views on that matter. In his speech the Minister dealt briefly with the Dublin Transport Authority Bill which we discussed yesterday. I want to reiterate what I said then, namely, that the Bill is totally inadequate. I hope the Minister will accept amendments which will strengthen that Bill. It is not a very purposeful exercise to have it as it is.

With regard to the wages grade pensions, with a certain amount of caution I say that the improved offer with regard to the pensions is to be welcomed by the House. I have noted that one prominent trade union leader has gone on record already as stating that he found the offer inadequate. I went into this matter in some detail when I was Minister. There were divided opinions among the workers. For some people the ideal seemed to be the type of pension scheme available in the public service, that is to say, a lump sum payment on retirement and a maximum 40/80ths of the retiring annual income for pension. The people already on pension would not lose out by that because, when the contributory pension was added to the basic pension, at times they had more than 40/80ths of their income on retirement. I should like the Minister to let me know how the contributory pension plus the sum of £34.50 relates to 40/80ths of the income on retirement of a CIE worker. That is the crunch point for the staff.

There is also an anomaly that was not referred to in the speech and which I refer to only in passing with regard to CIE workers who have been promoted and who lose out on social welfare payments. I should like the Minister in his reply to this debate to deal with that anomaly. I ask him to indicate if he has any plans to improve the position of people who are being penalised for having been good enough to get promotion in their jobs.

In his speech the Minister deals briefly with the DTA Bill. We will have a further opportunity to deal with that as the measure goes through the House. I have made my own views known on it.

On the question of urban traffic control, I should like the Minister to be more specific in telling the House where it is at, to use a modernism. In 1982 we were talking about urban traffic control, the computerisation of lights and improved traffic flow. I should like to know what has happened in this regard.

In his speech the Minister spoke about the new Bill dealing with road transport. We have been waiting for this measure for a long time and the slow progress has caused considerable hardship among people involved in that business. I have had discussion with the Irish Road Hauliers' Association, with IOTA and with others during the years. As the House knows, there was in operation a system of selling plates and people were very confused about the situation. Many of them who wanted to get into the business did not know if they should invest in plates or if their usefulness would have ended before they had cleared what they had paid for the plates. In putting the Bill before the House the Minister has indicated that this uncertainly will be at an end.

There are fears with regard to the legislation. The Irish Road Hauliers' Association are worried about a number of areas. One such area is the own account operation. There are many fairly large such operations, particularly in co-operatives, where there is a peak season for business and where there is a very slack period. Individual members of the Irish Road Hauliers' Association are worried that in the slack season these fairly heavy economic units will be brought to bear on them and that will be put out of business in that way.

Enforcement of the regulations is nonexistent. They claim that if the law is not enforced when the Bill is on the Statute Book bankruptcy will be the order of the day for many legitimate and well established road hauliers. I am convinced by the evidence I have from them that the will be the case. I am aware that the Garda have all kinds of demands made on them which they should not have in a normal society. They are under a lot of pressure. I am aware of that in my constituency. It is well known that there are hauliers who are flouting the law and are never challenged. The Irish Road Hauliers' Association feel so desperate about this that they have made suggestions as to how the law should be enforced. They say that a corps of inspectors should be appointed to enforce the law at least in the initial stages of its operation. The economic implications are very serious. I should like the Minister to address himself to the problem in co-operation with the Minister for Justice. He might comment on that aspect.

As regards Irish Shipping, the Minister made the case he originally made to justify its liquidation but action which leaves us without a deep sea fleet cannot be defended nor should any attempt be made to defend it. In an exchange with Deputy Kelly I reffered to the fact that this company was a profit making one for many years.

It was a shining deed in a naughty world.

I do not resent the Deputy's intrusions as I find them stimulating. However, we are not discussing that but rather Irish Shipping. Mistakes were made by management. The House finds itself in the position of blind man's buff as far as the operations of this company are concerned. At the time if anyone said we should have been inquiring into Irish Shipping the legitimate retort would have been: "Why? They are doing exceptionally well and the House, by intruding into their affairs, can do nothing but harm."

The Federated Workers Union of Ireland made a submission to the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Commercial State-Sponsored Bodies before the debacle occured. In that they stated:

There are problems with the management structure of Irish Shipping Limited and these problems need to be addressed. In the main, we feel there is a bunching of the managerial functions in the hands of a small number of people. It is true to state that very important and far-reaching decisions are being taken by two or three people with little if any reference down the line. Since 1973, the Irish Shipping management group has been reduced from seven to five and at present six management functions are vested in two individuals. It is astonishing to note that the general manager, since his appointment last year, continues to carry the full functions of administration manager and personnel manager. This is entirely inefficient and likely to lead to decisions which will cause the company considerable discomfort.

There may be little post factum wisdom in that even though the ballon had not gone up at that time but obviously the dogs in the streets were barking about the management of Irish Shipping when that submission was made to the committee. I would welcome from the Minister a commitment to an Irish deep sea shipping company within the terms which he stated to day of what he expects from the State companies. I would welcome his commitment to either a State company or a joint State-private venture with good management and the objectives of the company set out. I call on the Minister to make that commitment.

The Minister referred to the treatment of the workers. As far as I know, the Supplementary Estimate brought before the House covered ten of the 47 people involved. We should not be satisfied with the sop, in the form of ex gratia payments, that was given to those who had war service. I should like the Minister to commit himself to restoring the pension expectations of all the people who found themselves summarily dismissed as a result of the Minister's action. What happened was not just, and the Minister should remedy it. When the Supplementary Estimate was being debated in the House I asked about the two weeks pay which was owed to the workers. For the period 1 November to 14 November 1984 the workers were not paid. Have they since been paid?

The term "sub judice” is a grand umbrella at times. We cannot talk about matters that are sub judice. Now we have a new phenomenon. We are told that because the receiver or the liquidator is dealing with some matter, we are precluded by law from commenting on it. This is another modern umbrella under which people shelter.

I do not think it should be accepted here either.

I agree totally with the Deputy. We tend to expand these areas. There are very good reasons for the sub judice law but because its interpretation is so broad it becomes meaningles ultimately.

Very often what is really involved is a sub garda, or sub inspector of rates or sub some other such person rule.

sub silence might be apt.

I should like the Minister to indicate a commitment to slim down the deep sea Irish fleet and to have a fleet with good management and, secondly, I should like him to consider again the plight of those Irish Shipping personnel who became unemployed at the end of last year.

One must refer also to the education and training implications of the demise of our deep sea fleet. This is an area which carries implications through to the next century. A person of 18 who is interested in following that type of career will be working for the next 50 years but if we cut off the education and training facilities, our students will either have to go abroad — though there are few if any places for them to learn seamanship abroad — or they will have to give up the idea altogether. In that event, and should this Government or any future Government decide to establish a deep sea fleet, we will have to depend on foreigners to man it.

It is admitted generally that the management of Irish Shipping made grevious mistakes. We did not know about these mistakes at the time they were made. There should have been machinery and facilities available to the Department that would have made them aware of the position. It would be desirable that we would have our own trained personnel to man any deep sea fleet we might establish. There are plenty of people who have reached the rank of captain and who are now unemployed but I would not be too concerned about those. My concern is for the other personnel involved. The whole original purpose of the establishment of Irish Shipping seemed to have been defeated by referring to the fleet as an Irish fleet when the vessels were flagged in Panama or in Hong Kong and crewed by Taiwanese or by people of some other nationality. Our vision should be of a fleet that will be Irish owned, whether publicly or privately or by way of a mixture of both, Irish flagged and crewed by Irish personnel. In the cold hearted, bloody nosed capitalist philosophy one might say, "we have the ship and we will flag it and crew it at the lowest cost to ourselves". I do not think that should be the purpose of an Irish deep sea fleet. It was not the purpose of an Irish Shipping and I do not think it would be an approach that would be acceptable to the House.

I note that in the Book of Estimates there is a figure of about £1 million in respect of the Irish Spruce. I should like the Minister to indicate what the exact position is in regard to that vessel. It was the ship that was to be used by Irish Shipping to bring coal to Moneypoint. When the blow fell the ship was at Marseilles, having a propeller changed so as to improve its economic performance. I am anxious to find out who owns the vessel. I hope that under an Irish captain, with an Irish crew and with a contract from the ESB, the vessel can be put into the service of the country. Very often the best way to start is with one unit rather than with a large purchasing plan. A fleet can be built up from that point.

In The Irish Times of 17 July 1984, not quite a year ago, in an article by Gary Culliton there is the following comment:

Irish Shipping expects to make a large profit carrying coal to the Moneypoint power station. The state-owned shipping lossmaker has won a contract to supply half the Shannon utility's fuel needs and General Manager Niall McGovern expects the ESB deal to pull Irish Shipping out of the doldrums when the contract starts next year.

"Despite quoting a ridiculously low rate for carrying coal to Moneypoint, our ships will bring in net earnings of $11,000 a day," says Mr. McGovern. "It is an extremely profitable deal from Irish Shipping's point of view." This contrasts sharply with most of the cutrate cargo business available at the moment. Deliveries will start early in 1985 at about 100,000 tons of coal per annum. This will increase to half a million tons per annum at the end of the decade. There follows the quotation from Mr. Lang of the ESB that:

There is always government pressure to use Irish firms.

I am proud that we try to exercise that pressure. Mr. Lang is reported as having said also that we try to keep business in this country as long as it does not involve too great a loss. The report continues:

The five-year contract will be a godsend to Irish Shipping, a company that has been battered by the notoriously volatile deep water cargo trade. Shipping coal out of Baltimore and New Orleans will be a profitable staple trade on which the fleet operator's hopedfor recovery will be based.

It was Irish Shipping's ambition to carry coal that got it into trouble in the first place.

Mr. Culliton goes on to indicate why the company expanded so quickly after the development of the oil crisis. There is a justification there of a kind for the chartering. The reason I am quoting the article is that I am anxious to find out the status of the Irish Spruce. What is the Minister's and the Government's plan for the use of the vessel?

I know that some of the personnel who were employed by Irish Shipping were putting forward a co-operative scheme for its handling and management. Will the Minister tell the House what if anything has happened in that regard, or whether the Minister has in mind to establish it as unit number one of a new deep sea fishing fleet? The liquidation is the end of the affair in a certain sense, but the Irish Spruce is the heart of the matter as far as setting up a new deep sea fishing fleet is concerned. I would like to know about the Belfast car ferry. As an Ulster man I have a special interest in that. Recently we read newspaper reports about the Reardon Smith line which had a relationship with Irish Shipping. What is the situation with regard to the Reardon Smith line and for that matter the position of the AIB who owns 25 per cent of the Ocean Bank development?

Notice taken that 20 Members were not present; House counted and 20 Members being present,

I was summarising what I was suggesting with regard to Irish Shipping and seeking a commitment from the Minister to establish a deep sea fleet either wholly State owned or partly State owned. I asked also for another look at the parlous plight of the people who were employed by Irish Shipping when the company was liquidated. The workers were naturally bemused by the payment of six weeks' pay multiplied by years of service to one of the management when they only got half a week's pay multiplied by their years of service up to 41 years and after that a week's pay instead of a half week's pay. It is as well for the House to know that Irish Shipping Limited never had industrial disputes. It is something that this House should commend and commendation without backing it up by proper treatment of the workers only induces cynicism. I understand that the Irish Rowan was sold by the liquidator to the Yugoslavs in what was more or less a State trading contract. In the context of having a deep sea fleet I cannot see how the Yugoslav company having purchased it at a low price will operate it profitably. The ship was supposed to be worth £15 million and it was sold for £2.5 million.

The Minister is not responsible for sales of that kind.

The Minister is responsible for policy and it is in the context of a suggestion from me that before he liquidated the company all those ships should have been brought home. The Irish Spruce was on its way to Taiwan; another was on its way to Mombasa; and another was laid up at Marseilles. Those three ships should have been brought home and we would have had more control——

The Chair could not reasonably object to that. What I object to is discussing happening within the liquidation.

We had been discussing that and a very wise and prudent man of the law and I had agreed in the absence of the Chair a certain thing that I will not mention lest I provoke the Chair about the operation of sub judice rulings and now this new——

An hour ago the Deputy was telling us about the cosy relationship he was lucky enough to enjoy with the Chair because of their approximate birth places.

It is only in the context of that cosy relationship that I have refrained from saying what I am talking about.

(Interruptions.)

The Chair knows from experience that cosy relationships are inclined to get out of hand.

And the cosier the faster.

There are all kinds of implications in that. In relation to the Dublin Port and Docks Board, the Minister has shown in his speech that he is far too complacent about what is happening. The Minister said that he has laid down certain ground rules and that if they are adhered to certain succour, aid and support will be forthcoming from the Minister. While this nice talk is going on we are being told that the deep sea section of Dublin Port is being closed down not in some vague and nebulous future but tomorrow. The House is not alerted to the implications of this. As far as I can gather from the public print, 113 of the dockers have agreed to redundancy terms. That is no small achievement in an area where industrial relations have traditionally been very difficult indeed. The Minister should emphasise that achievement in his speech and guarantee Dublin Cargo Handlers and the Dublin Port Authority, while biding their time, to improve on that if possible. What is happening is that an intransigence has developed in the unions, and an instransigence is obviously being developed by the Minister. The result is that the major port of this country which had been carrying on the major export and import burden will be closed down. The urgency which should attach to this is not being attached to it either by the Minister or the House. I am calling on the Minister to back off the instransigent position he has taken up, to say to Dublin Cargo Handlers, to the port authority and to the unions, "Do not go as far as to close down". One does not know what might happen if we start going down that road. I know that they are having problems. I know that business had shifted to Drogheda, Greenore and as far north as Carrickfergus and Belfast, but the Minister's approach at present is not the appropriate approach to deal with this very serious problem.

I am not a party to the dispute at all.

The Minister will——

There was a man who held his office from the Roman emperor at one time who adopted that attitude——

I offered to help.

——and I do not think this is good enough as far as the major port in the capital city is concerned. All right, there may be inflexibility but the inflexibility did not go to the extent of blocking all redundancy agreements. There are 113. There are complaints — I do not know what substance is in the complaints — that the figure is shifting from the management point of view, that each time the redundancy agreement numbers have increased the ante has been upped by the management. I do not know whether that is a fact, but if there is suspicion, if a climate of hostility has developed, the Minister has a function to try to dispel that hostility, to keep the ship moving until final agreement is reached. There may be brinkmanship in it and there is a danger in that. In the Communist Manifesto there is an advocacy of brinkmanship but they have always been much too clever to go over the edge. Here as far as Dublin port is concerned we are going to go over the edge. This is very serious and the Minister has a serious responsibility. I am not saying this for any political reason. I am saying that we should not sit smugly in this House and allow the port of Dublin to close down.

The Minister knows the figures better than I do. I think Dublin Cargo Handling are about £9 million in debt and the whole setting up of the Dublin Cargo Handling operation was a bona fide exercise to improve the operation, efficiency and— most important of all — reliability of this port. In his speech the Minister mentioned the loss of time, strikes and trouble, and the workers must share the responsibility there, but they have faced up to this in a responsible way. If they had taken an irresponsible attitude then 113 agreements could not have been made, 113 people would not have been willing to accept the redundancy scheme that was worked out. If the purpose of the Minister, Dublin Cargo Handling and the Dublin Port and Docks Board is to put the screw on workers by the threats that we have been listening to, I do not accept it. Economic blackmail is involved in that situation and this House should not support it, we should decry it, and I am asking the Minister to make an attempt this very afternoon to save the docks from the final position of closure of the deep sea area.

Before the new system was introduced I had a question down and perhaps I can get a reply under the priority provision but circumstances seem to be outstripping me. It is "To ask the Minister for Communications if he accepts the recommendations of the Horgan report on the Dublin Port and Docks Board and if he will make a statement on the matter". I put down that question ages ago. I had hoped that the crisis which has arisen now would not have arisen. I will not delay any longer on that but I intend to pursue it. Deputy Ahern made a statement on it last night and again the Minister attacked him in his speech. I understand that a good part of Deputy Ahern's——

It was too bad that he should assume the right of self defence. The Minister should apologise after being called a bully.

Order please, for Deputy Wilson.

Thank you, a Cheann Comhairle. I had confidence that you would protect me. What Deputy Kelly said is true, and that is the obverse of the coin. The reverse of the coin is that a public representative who has many of his constituents working or involved in the Dublin deep sea port area is fully entitled to criticise a Minister in this House or outside this House and Deputy Kelly knows that quite well.

The Minister is entitled——

It would be a sad day if his right to criticise should be denied——

No one is denying that right. The Minister is entitled to defend himself.

——and the Minister has the right to reply.

If Deputy Kelly offers I will call him next, and I will listen to him for an hour if he is in order.

Really what Deputy Kelly should address himself to is whether the remarks that Deputy Ahern made were just. That is the nub of the matter, the substance of the question, and as he sees it in his constituency he can criticise the Minister on the desperate situation that he sees obtaining in that area. Even Deputy Kelly in his enthusiasm to defend the Minister will admit that he has that right.

I defend Deputy Ahern's right the very same.

Deputy Kelly will have his opportunity.

The other major shipping company are the B & I and the Minister has referred to them in the course of his speech. Before I say anything about them I want to do something that I think the Minister should have done in his speech. He may have done it elsewhere but he did not do it in his speech. He was very concerned with the justification of what he has done with regard to the appointment of a new chairman and managing director and management consultancy firm. On this side of the House we are very sceptical about the necessity for the huge investment in chairman and managing director and consultancy firm as far as this company are concerned. Before going any further I want to pay tribute to a man whom I got to know and respect who was the outgoing chairman of B & I, that is Mr. Frank Boland. In laying the kind of groundwork of defence for his action in appointing Mr. Spain and the consultancy firm Zeus the Minister forgot to indicate that Mr. Boland had been striving manfully as part time chairman to pull the B & I company around.

If the Deputy will bear with me a moment, this is a view I am expressing. I do not think it wise to draw in the names of people like a former director of one of these boards either by way of compliment or otherwise. It is good to hear compliments, but if somebody comes in in the afternoon and starts to scarify him what is the Chair to do?

I want to submit to the Chair that an attack was made on the chief executive of Bord Telecom Éireann by the Minister in his speech——

That is not fair.

I will give the reference to the Ceann Comhairle if he wants it. A considerable section of his speech was dedicated to the new chairman and managing director mentioned by name. I am doing no more than that. The management consultancy firm, the illustrious name of which has been omitted but about which everybody knows——

I was here for the Minister's speech and the part which dealt with the new RTE Authority. I speak subject to correction, of course. I do not think that I heard an attack. My opinion is that once you start introducing the names of these people it is very hard to control the discussion that might follow.

The Minister stated:

Much of the publicity about these contributions has been ill-informed and the former chief executive was wrong to so consistently enter into public controversy in a manner that would not be tolerated in any private sector group.

Everybody knows that the former chief executive of Telecom Éireann was Mr. Tom Byrnes. I am not attacking anybody. I am simply saying that a successful businessman, whose politics would not be my politics, gave service to the B & I for a number of years to try to bring the company around. I was simply paying a tribute to him in this House because of the manner in which the new man, mentioned as a Mr. Spain, was appointed and because in addition a consultancy firm was appointed, as mentioned in the Minister's speech. The man's name was mentioned.

I did not object to Deputy Wilson's mentioning that.

By implication the other man had not been adequate or capable of doing the job. My submission is that he was. He set in train a policy which would bring B & I to the exact same position that Mr. Spain with Zeus, thunderbolts and all, will achieve. He will get all the praise and there will not be a shred of praise for a public spirited man, a successful business man in his own right, who without pay would have achieved exactly the same.

I have already praised him in the House.

I want to go on record as saying that in the Chair's opinion the names of part time people on public boards should not be mentioned, either by way of compliment or condemnation, because if that is to become the practice we will have attacks. Everybody will not be as discreet as Deputy Wilson. People will come in and launch broadsides.

I have never yet got that kind of graceful tribute from the Chair.

Maybe the Deputy did not deserve it.

Deputy Wilson has knocked more plaster off the ceiling in his time than I have.

An arrangement has been made between B & I and Sealink. I have had representations from people who are not at all satisfied, particularly in the Rosslare area, regarding these arrangements.

Deputy Wilson has five minutes to conclude.

There is no time limit.

The Deputy is confined to an hour and a half.

I am only about half way through my speech. The hotel and tourist industry in the Rosslare area is not satisfied that the timing of the ships suits them. They have legitimate complaints about the lack of consultation. I spoke to employees of both B & I and the new privatised Sealink company. When they are making arrangements they should enter into consultations and take into account the immediate needs of an area like Rosslare. I intended to deal with the Rosslare Harbour situation. I visited both the strand and the harbour. The Minister said in his speech that he is setting up a Rosslare Harbour authority. I appreciate this and feel it will be to the advantage of the area. The Minister also has obligations regarding Rosslare Strand where there is a very serious problem of erosion. There is a relatively inexpensive way of dealing with this problem which I would recommend to the House.

I wanted to talk about financial controls on the ships owned by B & I but I have no time to expand on this matter. I have already spoken about it in the House.

I now refer to suitable train linkages for B & I in the UK. I would ask the Minister and his Department to keep an eye on whether train linkages are more suitable for the new American company than for ours.

The PAMBO people seem to be out on a limb. Perhaps the Minister's new CIE legislation will help them to decide on their investment for the future and what place they will have in the new set up. Deputy Kelly may expand on this point.

The Minister referred to fleet replacement for Aer Lingus. This is a major problem and the Minister should state his view and that of the Government regarding funding. Regarding Aer Rianta, the Minister announced in his speech a new system of looking at the accounts. That is a valid type of exercise on the Minister's part. Aer Rianta have been rightly praised for their management of the airports. Concealed in the £8 million which, according to the Book of Estimates, was returned this year, is the fact that all capital investment is not governmental and that interest is not taken into account. They are doing a good business job and I am very pleased that the Aeroflot business to Shannon has expanded to such an extent that it is making a significant impact on the economic position of the airport.

I have spoken previously about catering facilities at Dublin Airport. It should be a show place for Irish cuisine since the best of our Irish dishes are very highly appreciated in other countries. An effort should be made to make it a show place for Irish food, along the lines of the effort made by the IFA in Paris some time ago.

We will have an opportunity of expanding on the subject of road transport when the Bill comes before the House. I have referred to various problems in this area.

Even if the Minister succeeds in stopping the closure of Dublin port tomorrow it will take a while to solve the problems there. The development of various ports and harbours along the east coast is very important.

I regretfully conclude, having lost some time through my wish to see 20 Members in the House. Airports other than Cork, Shannon and Dublin are another subject which we could usefully discuss. Taking the long view, unless vertical take-off aircraft are developed at a reasonable cost, these airports will be a very useful investment in future. I am sorry that I do not have more time to discuss this very wide area.

The difficulty in which Deputy Wilson finds himself in not having enough time in one hour and a half to deal with the subject matter of the Estimate neatly makes the point that the Minister presides over a gigantic area of economic activity. It is so big it bears out my belief that it would be possible to do business in the State not with 15 members of a Government but with ten or 11, backed up by about eight second row office holders. I do not care what they are called, I prefer the old title of parliamentary secretary and I do not like uptitling ourselves just to impress our neighbours.

If it is possible for the Minister for Communications successfully and without injury to his health or efficiency to preside over this enormous administrative empire, it should certainly be possible to consolidate the functions of a few other Departments under a smaller number of office holders and to give good example throughout the public service. When the public service see the political side of the governmental area expanding as it did in the late seventies and early eighties they do not believe that the Government are serious in trimming costs and cutting down on the general burden of the State apparatus. I sympathise with Deputy Wilson's problem. I had forgotten he was limited to an hour and a half and if I realised that I might not have interrupted him so often. He made a very vigorous set of points in the time he had——

Lest there be any misunderstanding, the Deputy has one hour.

The second interesting feature of the Minister's position, apart from the enormous extent of governmental functions for which he is responsible, is that he presides over a baffling range of monopolies. He is the only Minister with any contact with the purely economic sphere who does that. I am not comparing him with the Minister for Defence or the Minister for Justice because, in the nature of things, there can be only one system of defence and justice. However, if you put him alongside the Minister for Industry, Trade, Commerce and Tourism, the Minister for Energy or the Minister for Agriculture, it is clear that while all these Ministers have monopolistic organisms subject to them, or at any rate looking to them for money, this Minister has a unique battery of monopolies under his aegis.

If there is such a personage in Bulgaria, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, or Poland as Minister for Communications, he would not have any greater function or powers and the organisms subject to him would not be any wider in their authority than the bodies which are subject to our Minister. It could even be that the Minister for Communications in Yugoslavia is envious of our Minister who presides over an empire in which private enterprise barely gets a look in. In Yugoslavia, one is entitled to run private enterprise in any sector provided one does not have more than ten or 12 employees. That signifies the beginnings of a compromise between strict socialism and a private enterprise. For all I know, it may easily be that the Minister for Communications in Yugoslavia, if he is an empire building kind of man, would be glad to find himself in Deputy Mitchell's shoes.

I wish to refer to the question of monopoly in its dimensions represented by the bodies for which the Minister is responsible and about which he has been talking this morning. I should like to remind the House that monopolies in this State, under the Constitution, are highly suspect because they are contrary in their nature of the values in the Constitution which the Irish people gave themselves nearly 50 years ago and which they uphold. I see that The Workers' Party are missing again today, two days running, although I would have thought that our discussion on Dublin transport yesterday and this Estimate today would have concerned them deeply. Clearly, local elections take priority over their duties here for all the high minded contempt which they lavish on the other Members of the House. However, even The Workers' Party, if they were interested in arguing the point, would scarcely contend that Article 43 of the Constitution not only guarantees that the State will not abolish the right of private ownership or the general right to transfer, bequeath and inherit property which means the right, among other things, to do business, or question that the second clause of the second section of Article 43 envisages the State interfering with property rights only in order to reconcile their exercise with the common good and not in pursuance of an ideology. I appreciate that the expression "common good" will have different meanings in the mouths of different people. In my mouth it may be different from Deputy Mac Giolla's meaning. I am not trying to make short work of a serious argument by falling back on a couple of words like this. However, the whole context of the Constitution and the primacy which it gives to individual people and their right to breathing space, economic breathing space as well as to breathing space and privacy in their families, in their human relationships and in their right to personal liberty and so on, is essentially not reconcilable with a system of monopoly, whether State or capitalistic.

Article 45 is a special Article not cognisable by the courts and is merely expressed to contain directive principles of social policy for the general guidance of the Oireachtas. Although these general principles cannot in general be called on — although they are being called on now by the back door so to speak — they cannot in general be deployed in order to invalidate a law enacted here; they are handed to us for our general guidance. This happened almost 50 years ago and I have not heard a suggestion that they should be changed. I am not going to read these principles but Article 45.2. iii. mentions the question of monopoly and what it envisages as undesirable, that is monopoly in private hands, the monopolisation or concentration of the ownership or control of essential commodities residing in a few individuals to the common detriment. I am against that too, but to concentrate the ownership or control of essential commodities or services in a single set of hands, even though they are publicly owned hands, may be just as much to the common detriment and against the general interest of the people.

In case anyone thinks I am regarding too much into a few words, let me refer to two other clauses of the same section. One of them speaks of the distribution of the ownership and control of the material resources of the community among private individuals. It specifically envisages the distributions among private individuals of the resources of the community. A further part of the same Article of the Constitution, 3.1º speaks in the following way about private initiative — private enterprise in other words: "The State shall favour...", not shall disfavour I would say to Deputy Mac Giolla, Deputy Taylor, the Minister for Labour or anybody in the Labour Party who thinks like this — not disfavour, not look down its long nose at, not take a dim view of but shall favour private initiative and where necessary supplement it, but only where necessary. The state has no role in providing initiative of its own on the economic plan except where it is necessary to supplement private initiative. That was Mr. de Valera's faith.

I have read more than once every line of the Constitution debate held here in June and July 1937. I do not recall a single Deputy dissenting although to be fair the thing got damn little attention, good or bad. The whole Constitution went through in three weeks of debate along with a whole lot of other things like the Pigs and Bacon Act, an Army Pensions Act and the usual raft of questions, adjournment debates and everything else. But I do not recall a single Deputy questioning the essential correspondence and agreement of the principles here expressed with what the ordinary Irish people, rich and poor wanted. Even the humblest Irish citizen sees himself either as owning something, or as aspiring to own something, and aspiring to lifting himself up by his boot straps to a position in which he will leave his children better off than he is himself. That is what this State is about. That is expressed in the Constitution, in Articles 43 and 45 and it is latent in many other parts. That suggests a State, the essence, nature, core and guts of which is something to which monopoly, whether privately or publicly owned, is essentially repugnant.

A monopoly in a State like this has to justify itself from the Word "go". It has to justify itself by reference to the inadequacy of private initiative sufficiently to serve the interests of the common good. And I do not dispute that there are such contexts. In particular I do not dispute that in the early days of the Irish State such contexts abounded. I would not dispute that for a second. It is true Irish agriculture had a prosperous few years in the days of the First World War but the twenties were a poor, raw time in this country. It was certainly the poorest State in Western Europe, and by a long chalk. The photographs left over from those days, and even things which I can remember from my own childhood, not certainly in the twenties but in the forties — I think I have shreds of recollections of the late thirties — testify to those days. I can remember the look of the place. I can remember seeing newsboys running barefoot around the streets of Dublin, even after the war. It is hard to recall these things now. It is hard to make someone even of the generation of Deputy Leyden believe it. This was a very, very poor place. It needed self-confidence, it needed a lead from its Government, who were bursting with confidence and initiative, independent initiative, not looking cravenly over their shoulders at what the English were at. That goes both for Mr. Willie Cosgrave's Government and for Mr. de Valera's early days. It needed a bursting self-confidence and drive on the part of those Governments to get things going in the country for which no one had the stomach, for which what little private enterprise and business there was here had no stomach. There was no here capable of setting up a postal service——

It is very hard to intervene when Deputy Kelly is speaking as he is now. But my understanding of the scope of this debate is that it deals with the policy and administration of the Minister and of any bodies operating under his aegis.

Sir, I have often seen speeches, campaign and policies fall on their face because the groundwork had not been laid. I am trying to——

I knew that was what the Deputy was leading up to but he has only an hour.

I will not go anywhere like an hour, Sir. I suppose I am nearly at the half-way mark already, perhaps not quite that, but I am not far off it. I only want to say that that monopoly here, leaving one's own personal ideology out of it, if one is going to respect the Constitution under which we function, must justify itself from day one onwards. What we have in this State is a set of monopolies, some of them undoubtedly understandable and justifiable in their origin, some of them perhaps still justifiable. There are some services which perhaps can scarcely be envisaged except in terms of a monopoly. But just in the way that the principle of zero budgeting is applied, or said to be applied, now in Government Departments, that they have to build up the Estimate from scratch, from the first sixpence every year and cannot just start taking last year's outturn as the floor, in the very same way a monopoly, every single year when it comes to present its report, should be scrutinised by a Government with what I might call the zero budgeting principle in mind. Is there still a reason to preserve this monopoly? That goes particularly for the postal, telecommunications and transport monopolies over which this Minister presides because they are the most conspicuous ones. Naturally it applies to Aer Lingus, the air transport monopoly as well. They are the most conspicuous monopolies in the whole battery.

The CIE monopoly — I know CIE are perhaps a cheap or easy shot, as I said here before; they are a bit like Muiris Ó Súillebháin's Fiche Bliain ag Fás, in the early chapter of which there is a description of a day at the Ventry races. He went to the Ventry races with his uncle. On the way into the fairground, which was appertinent to the races, there was a black man, either a real black man or somebody made up as a black man, in a barrel. For a penny one got three wooden blocks and could have three throws at the black man in the barrel. This child, the future writer, noticed that all his neighbours, cute Kerryman though they were, were unable to hit the man with the wooden block. So he waited until the black man was submerged in the barrel, then threw his block and the black man emerged from the barrel to meet the block full in the face. It may be that CIE in debates of this kind are in somewhat the same position as the stock black man in the barrel that everybody feels they can have a cheap shot at. I do not want to do that. I travel on CIE nearly every day and I have the utmost respect for the patience of the people who work there, particularly those on the buses. I do not know how any human being sticks the job of either a bus driver or conductor, the difficulties with passengers, with traffic, plant, and with everything else. I have the greatest respect for CIE personnel. I know that the great majority of them do their level best, do not like to see their company run down and would be glad to see it do well.

As I was saying yesterday, before I had to report progress — I will be back to the theme, I hope, again — the new DART service, whatever about its economies, is a credit to CIE. I have some small criticisms at the edges. I do not want to be taken as having a cheap shot at CIE also. It has to be said that every public transport undertaking in Europe, so far as I know, requires Government subsidisation of one kind or another. Even the Germans, whom I deeply admire and know very well, who run a superb transport system, have a railway system which loses absolutely astronomical sums of money. I do not know how they do it because it does not seem to me to be consistent with their efficiency. It is an extremely efficient, very fine service. Although it is very well supported by the public it loses absolutely astronomical sums of money.

CIE are right to point out, and to have pointed out on their behalf, that they are not alone, that they are not perhaps even the worst case. Even though they are not alone, the feature of losing public money, of having to be subsidised is common between themselves and probably almost every other transport undertaking in the free world, certainly in Western Europe. We still must look at whether we necessarily must acquiesce in this continuing loss now running — I am talking about the level of subsidy which this House must provide them with — at a rate of over £2 million a week. I admit that that figure has not increased by very much in the last few years and the Minister is entitled, and right, to give the Government credit for having adopted a new system of dealing financially with CIE. He explained that system in the course of his speech and I do not need to go back over it. The Minister is right to compliment CIE in having made headway but it is still costing the taxpayer more than £2 million per week.

The CIE subsidy accounts for almost 60 per cent of the entire Estimate which the Minister has introduced. All the rest, the ports, airports, pensions and so on are in the ha'penny place compared to the CIE subsidy. The estimate for this year for CIE is £115 million out of a total Estimate of £196 million, almost 60 per cent, or about £2 million per week. We do not necessarily criticise the company because it costs the taxpayer money. All public transport operations do that, but is there any way of getting this down? Is there any way of freeing ourselves or, perhaps, doing a bit better than the Belgians, the Dutch or the Germans? We usually think we are doing all right if we are doing half as well but could we do a bit better in this regard? Could we take advantage of some features in the Irish infrastructure such as the fact that we have an enormous road network? We have a most extravagant road network. There is nothing comparable on the Continent. It makes sense for an Irish farmer, even if he lives at the end of a two mile boreen in some god-forsaken townland that even the postman has forgotten the name of, to keep a car because he has an extravagant network of roads, most of which were built in the old days for relief purposes, on which he can go anywhere relatively quickly. The roads may be bad roads, may have potholes and may not be comfortable to drive on and I am not trying to minimise the complaints of people who live in Connemara and other parts where the road service is particularly bad, but here is something in transport infrastructure which makes possible a style of communication which is not possible for the people who live in the larger contimental area and not even possible in England.

I am not sure what the figures are but I believe we have a length of tarred road far greater than any country in Europe. That is something that gives me reason to think that perhaps we do not need the density of public transport we have, that we do not need to supply services of a kind which most people could make shift to provide by some type of co-operative means or, if we were to remove the monopoly, by some form of localised enterprise. I find that instead of looking at the matter in that light the Minister is talking — as yet he is only talking — about splitting CIE into three different components all of which are to be public monopolies. I wonder if he is coming to grips with our problem at all. Those two new companies will be new structures into which CIE will be subdivided. I suppose that even at this minute some little graphic designer is putting together cute little logos for three different companies and, for all I know, there may be people who have their eyes on the top executive positions who are spotting out comfortable office accommodation for themselves, perhaps conveniently situated. That is not going to change the picture very much. I cannot see that merely restructuring the management in this way, of making a public monopoly into three public monopolies will change things very much. I should like to know why the Minister does not, if only as an experiment, hive off, hand out or yield up to private enterprise a slice of the CIE monopoly.

I made that suggestion before and the answer I got from somebody who is not listening to what I have been trying to say is that if we handed it to private enterprise we know what would happen, private enterprise would be in like a shot to relieve us of the No. 6, No. 7a and No. 8 bus services which I take for granted make money but nobody would want to run the twice weekly bus from Galway to Manorhamilton via some circuitous serpentine route. My answer to that is: do not hand out just the profitable bits, experimentally cut the CIE operational function into what might be called decker sandwiches or layer cakes in which there would be a slice of profitable service, a slice of break even service and a slice of unprofitable service and sell them off as a whole, rent them out or deal with them as concessions as a whole. We should say that one cannot be taken without the other. We should see if a private operator would take that risk and would say he will take on a profitable Dublin route, a break even inter-suburban route and a grossly unprofitable country route and guarantee to maintain them at a certain frequency, at a certain standard of cleanliness, maintenance and so and see how we will get on. I cannot understand why that is not done. I suspect that the reason is because of fear of the unions who see that a private operator will not tolerate the continuance of, for example, two-man buses because he could not afford to. Being a private operator he would be out of business but the poor old sow whose situation is often deplored here, the poor old Irish State and the taxpayer who has to keep a roof over his head, naturally can always be fallen back on for so long as there is a publicly owned monopoly which the State essentially cannot close down. We cannot close down CIE and everyone knows that. At least we thought we knew it until Irish Shipping was closed down but I take it for granted that nobody contemplates the State closing down CIE.

I cannot see why experimentally we should not slice off a bit of the CIE function in this layer cake or decker sandwich mode I have described and see how it gets on. Instead of talking about that the Minister scarcely made any gesture or obeisance to private enterprise in the transport context except at the end of his speech where he said:

There is, of course, no fundamental reason why public enterprise should not be as efficient as the private sector, but some appear to think that public enterprise is there for the benefit of those working in it, without having to give value for money or ensure that the customer comes first.

They are tough words but there are not enough of them. I know what the Minister means but unless one had followed his speech one might have missed those few words. It is not enough to say about a publicly owned company that it is not there for the benefit of the people working in it but that it is there for the benefit of the general public and if the service it is providing can be more cheaply and efficiently provided privately the public interest requires that the public purse, including the purse of the workers who are also taxpayers whether they like it or not, should be spared.

The postal monopoly is in a similar condition. I had strong misgivings about An Post and Bord Telecom when they were set up and I made elaborate fun of their names here. I still think that the name Telecom is ridiculous but I must say that I have noticed in my own experience, and in the level of complaints I have been getting from constituents, that, whether they were the cause of it or not, the advent of these two bodies has been accompanied by an improvement in those services. Certainly, the level of complaints about telephones has fallen off very steeply. I am sure every Member has had that experience. It may be that that was going to happen anyway. It may easily be that P & T finally had got their act together and that the cabling system and installations were on full steam at the time the function was handed over but I must admit, for what it is worth, that the complaints about telephone installations have virtually ceased.

I did not so often get complaints about postal services but I observed how unsatisfactory the system was in several respects. In my view, the new management appear to be trying to save money, to think up new ideas to attract business and to give the whole operation more life than it used to have. I wish both organisations well and I am sure they will survive any remarks I have made about them. I will be the first to commend them if they show continuing success.

At the same time everything I have said about monopolies goes for them as well. They require to justify themselves as monopolies. I tried to put down amendments to the Bill to prevent An Post from becoming a monopoly and to preserve the position of private couriers, but I had to withdraw my amendments for one reason or another. The proposition that there is anything inherent about carrying post which requires it to be confined to a State owned monopoly is unsustainable. I cannot see why that should be so. I recognise that there should be a State service with a State guarantee behind it and a Minister responsible for it and that people should have an option to use the State service, but if somebody wants to compete by providing a cheaper or different form of service I cannot see why they should not be allowed to do so.

The reason we have this postal monopoly is because the British left it behind them. If there is another reason I would like to hear it. We inherited this system. The same officials no doubt were in the post office when it was rebuilt after 1916 and they continued to do the same job and carry out the same policies. The system dragged on year after year and remained a monopoly. It was only after the outrageous Post Office strike in 1979, which lasted five or six months and which did untold damage to Irish business, not to speak of the private injury which it caused individuals, that courier firms began to provide a service. When the postal service did resume it was never up to the same standards and most courier firms were able and could be relied on to provide a better and quicker service for roughly the same cost as the official postal monopoly.

The Attorney General prosecuted one firm — Paperlink. I do not know why that firm was singled out and the other firms were not similarly proceeded against. In their defence Paperlink raised the unconstitutionality of the idea of a monopoly in a State like this and Mr. Justice Costello held against them. They did not appeal to the Supreme Court, so there was no Supreme Court authority on that point. It is nearly an impertinence for me to offer a commendation of praise on him. I can scarcely imagine there is a more respected judge on the bench — and I say that quite sincerely — but with the greatest respect to him, I think he was wrong in his decision on the Paperlink issue and I would have liked to see it litigated in the Supreme Court. There is one consideration which did not loom sufficiently largely in that case, and perhaps that is why the judgment did not focus on it, and that is what happens when a public monopoly ceases to function? How can it be said that the public monopoly, which did not provide a service for five or six months, subserves the common good? Surely the common good is very severely injured by a public monopoly which closes down in conditions where nobody else is allowed to supply the same service? That is a monopoly, the effect of which is deeply injurious to the public interest. That side of the question was not explored sufficiently and I would have liked to hear the Supreme Court's views on it. My own view, which even the Supreme Court would not change because they change their minds occasionally, is that there is no room in this country for the proposition that the State has only got to declare a monopoly and that is that. When that monopoly provides a bad service or no service at all, whatever shred of justification which might have existed for a monopoly disappears.

The same thing goes for the air waves. They are a commodity which can be exploited for business purposes and for making money. That is approved of by our Constitution and unless Deputy Mac Giolla produces a majority in this House big enough to sponsor a Bill to change that, and persuades the people to vote for it, that is going to remain one of the bases and fundamentals of this State. The air waves are a natural resources subject to the same principles in the Constitution and they have to be shared among private individuals, subject to obvious considerations of public order and public morality. In the case of the air waves, where there is a limited supply of frequencies consideration of public order is very obvious. I do not deny the State's entitlement to run a broadcasting service, but what I deny is that the State is entitled to keep everybody else off the air. The State is entitled to insist on licensing to operate only on a particular frequency, and the operator will be punished if he strays off the frequency or operates without a licence, but to deny ab initio the right of a business or anybody else to get on the air does not make sense.

RTE and the Minister require to justify that monopoly. If, as it is reported, there is conflict between the Government parties on this matter, and that that is the reason why this Bill is so long in surfacing and why the scandal of private radio has been so long tolerated, I have to say that I think the Labour Party are absolutely wrong, and they have only to open the Constitution to see that. I have bought dearly my right to say these things by retreating to the back bench. There is no constitutional way of keeping private enterprise, private business and private opinions off the air waves except in the interest of public order. I unreservedly accept that the State not only may but must maintain a régime of order on the air waves because we cannot all jam one another — that is effectively what it would mean — but I deny the State's right to say that these air waves, which like the air we breath are a natural resource, will be controlled by an Authority appointed by the State and nobody else can be involved.

I wrote to the then Minister, Dr. Cruise-O'Brien, to make these points when private radio broadcasting began. I said there was no constitutional way we could protect RTE's position by keeping everybody else off the air. I got a letter, not from the Minister but from a person who was, I think, in charge of the broadcasting section in the Department of Posts and Telegraphs. He gave seven or eight reasons why no one else could be allowed on the air. Five or six were relevant enough, to do with the limited number of frequencies, the danger of interrupting vital services, interfering with navigation, ambulances and so on. I accept all that. However, the last reason was the one which interested me. It was because we must protect RTE's position.

That was the official attitude of the Department of Posts and Telegraphs around the year — I am speaking from memory — 1976. That position is altogether legally wrong, in my opinion. I have said my piece about the Labour Party and do not want to repeat it. They are completely in the wrong if they are impending this Bill in order to keep private enterprise off the air. I would make it an issue on which the Minister should say "Either I am allowed to produce this Bill, or I resign", and see what happens.

That Bill must include — it cannot lawfully exclude — some room for private enterprise. In the old days of the Posts and Telegraphs Estimates, the Deputies used to come into the House and, if they had nothing else to say, had an opinion about RTE. I know that the Minister is not responsible for RTE's programme or day-to-day operation, but having spoken hard words about their illusion that they have the right to a monopoly of the air waves, I want to say that of the monopoly which they have they make, on the whole, very good use. I have no serious fault to find with the station. I do not look at television or listen to the radio very much. I listen to the radio certainly in the morning and occasionally look at television in the evening. Such impressions — and I admit they are not exhaustive — as I have tell me, at least, that RTE put out programmes that are not, by a long shot, as vulgar and cretinous as those coming from some of the English stations. That may be a negative phrase which would not flatter RTE very highly, but they certainly have a long way to descend before they could reach the absolutely moronic level of what I sometimes see my children looking at on one of the British frequencies. If they can even keep clear of descending to that level, they will have deserved well of the people. I am not speaking about vulgarity in the sexual sense, but about vulgarity in the general sense and moronic programmes such that it would make you ashamed of your species to be caught looking at them.

I would make one plea, if it is proper to do so in the course of this debate: when an advertising agency deliver RTE a jingle, particularly a radio jingle, for use in promoting some product, that jingle is permitted to live on the station for a maximum of six months. I do not know if the House shares this prejudice or that perhaps the Ceann Comhairle has a more placid temperament than I have, but one of the minor irritations of my life is to turn on the radio and hear for the seventeen thousand eight hundred and thirty-second time —"You-made-us-what-we-are, the-people's-choice". I am not going to mention the company responsible for that jingle, but whoever is responsible for keeping it on for so many uninterrupted months should be shot. It is fit to drive one out of one's mind. There should be a time limit of six months on every advertising jingle, because the effect on the listening public is absolutely infuriating. I do not think I have ever heard anyone complain in here about this before and perhaps I am less tolerant than others, but it would not be too much to ask the advertiser to change his tune every few months.

Lastly, I have had the same volume of very sober and temperate complaints, considering the hardship, from Irish Shipping employees about the situation in which the developments at the beginning of this year left them. I realise that the Minister had to make a hard decision and I support it, as I think every Deputy on the Government side, with greater or lesser resignation or reluctance, does. We recognise that there is a limit to what can be done to rescue even a body with as good a record as Irish Shipping when they get themselves so deeply into trouble. I join with Deputy Wilson in asking the Minister to keep in front of his mind the hardship caused to people who feel that they have been, certainly through no fault of their own, treated in a way that they could not possibly have avoided after having, as Deputy Wilson quite rightly said, turned in so many years of profitable operation and of flawless industrial relations. Not that anyone should perforce be compassionate from that sort of consideration necessarily, but I would like the Minister and the Government to be mindful of that relatively small number of people who have been left in situations of such hardship in regard to pensions, not to speak of unemployment.

It may be that the State operates some system of preferential treatment in a way that once upon a time, and perhaps even yet, service in the Defence Forces was regarded as giving you a preferential claim to State employment. If such a thing still exists, it should be extended to categories like Irish Shipping employees. I am speaking about those looking for new State employment who have had to leave State employment for reasons for which they themselves are not answerable. I would not at all say the same about a concern whose workforce shut it down. Certainly, a workforce like that of Irish Shipping is not in that situation. I am sure this is near the Government's heart and I hope they will find some way of treating them with more effective compassion than has seemed possible up to now. I am sure the Government are not short of compassion.

We shall be opposing this Estimate from the Department of Communications. We cannot accept it on the basis that there is no provision whatsoever for supporting the organisations which are responsible to the Department of Communications. The Estimate does not take into account the serious crisis which is developing within the semi-State organisations under the Minister's control — namely, Bord Telecom Éireann, An Post and RTE. Over the past year the Minister has failed dismally to live up to his responsibilities.

Resulting from the Government's document Building on Reality Bord Telecom Éireann are facing a serious financial crisis. This has been clearly demonstrated by the resignation of the chief executive, Mr. Tom Byrnes, on 31 May 1985. This was a major blow to the company. The grounds for his resignation were clearly stated by Mr. Byrnes at the time. I regret that the Minister saw fit in here today to criticise the former chief executive, when Mr. Byrnes had to leave the country as a result of that Minister's mishandling of Bord Telecom Éireann and the financing of that company. It is unprecedented that in this House a Government Cabinet Minister would take the opportunity, during the Estimate for his Department, to criticise the former and first chief executive of Bord Telecom Éireann, a man who contributed so much to the launching of that semi-State company on 1 January 1984. Before that time he served on the interim board which resulted in a transition from a State company to a semi-State organisation.

Let us place on record that Mr. Tom Byrnes made a major contribution to the establishment of Bord Telecom Éireann and its efficient running since 1 January 1984. The State would have invested in Mr. Byrnes a considerable amount of money in relation to the expertise which he built up over a period of five years. That has now been lost to the State as a result of the Minister's and the Government's decision in the document, Building on Reality.

Surely the Minister is aware of the crisis within Bord Telecom Éireann? I want to recall that financial crisis in detail. By the end of March 1985, losses will be in the region of £70 million. The levy of £180 million imposed by the Government as a method of raising further taxation and included in the 1985 Finance Bill to prevent legal objections posed by Telecom Éireann will sink this company.

We should bear in mind the crisis in Telecom Éireann at this stage. In 1984 they borrowed £180 million for their capital programme and this year they are borrowing £160 million also for their capital works. In addition, they propose to borrow a further £130 million in 1986 to complete their capital investment programme. It should be noted that £30 million allocated by the EC in 1984 for telecommunication purposes was retained by the Government for other purposes. In 1984 the Government received a contribution of £94 million from Telecom Éireann and this has resulted in higher charges. It will affect adversely the viability of the company and the many firms who rely on Telecom Éireann for telephone and telex services.

I note that the unions propose to oppose the policy of the Government. It is more than likely that the chairman of Telecom Éireann and other directors will shortly resign in protest unless there is a change of policy by the Government in relation to the funding of Telecom Éireann. This organisation will become a white elephant unless the Government change their attitude. They are forcing the organisation to raise further borrowing to provide funds for the Government. It is a form of taxation on telephone and telex subscribers who are not able to carry the extra cost at this stage.

I welcome the publication this week of the first annual report of An Post for the year ended 31 March 1984. The publication in such a short time is an example to other State companies of the efficient way they are handling their affairs. I congratulate Mr. Fergal Quinn, chairman, and Mr. Gerard Harvey, chief executive, for their fine performance in the past 12 months. In addition, I should like to congratulate the 9,000 staff and the 3,000 sub-contractors, postmasters and so on for the work they have done. They have made dramatic improvements in the postal services since the establishment of An Post on 1 January 1984. I had the honour of serving in the Department of Posts and Telegraphs for nine months and I was quite confident that the calibre of the people in the Department and throughout the service would ensure that An Post would be a magnificent success.

I note the overall trading loss of £377,000, taking into account the Government subvention of £5 million in 1984. This was predicted as the service was a loss-making one. However, they have arrested the decline, particularly with regard to the volume of mail. There has been a 5 per cent increase in that area and that is most welcome. This is happening at a time when there is an overall international decline in postal business.

I regret that the Government have decided to reduce the overall commitment of £50 million for capital works which was included in the 1982 Bill dealing with postal and telecommunications services. The reduction is a major blow to An Post. The state of the buildings and the vehicles transferred by the Department of Posts and Telegraphs in 1984 was not up to standard. Throughout the country the cost of maintenance in respect of buildings and vehicles has been quite considerable. We must compare that with the quality of the buildings transferred to Telecom Éireann and the investment in relation to new buildings for that organisation.

I know from my inspection of post offices that the quality of the buildings is very poor. It would require far more than £50 million to bring up the standard of those buildings to modern requirements. Some of the sorting offices are in very poor state and the staff have to work in very bad conditions: some of the buildings are in a very dangerous condition. I take the opportunity to request the Minister to appeal to the Government to review their commitment in relation to capital works. It is only fair and reasonable that An Post should benefit from the commitment given in 1982. If the staff were aware that the Government were proposing to renege on their commitment, I do not think the transition would have been as peaceful and as orderly as it has been. Unless this investment takes place the quality and the future of the service will be damaged.

I say to the chief executive, the chairman and the staff of An Post that they are being too quiet and orderly regarding the failure of the Government to allocate the £50 million to them. I hope they will adopt a more independent approach, perhaps similar to the approach adopted by Mr. Tom Byrnes. When he worked with Telecom Éireann he spelled out clearly and publicly his position in relation to charges imposed by the Government. I have no criticism of the chairman of An Post. He tends to rely on good public relations in relation to his performance and perhaps it is time he took a more active role in pointing out to the Government their responsibility in connection with the commitments they made. He does not need to protect the Government or the Minister. He should fight for the staff with regard to the kind of buildings in which they work. He may wish to keep on good terms with the Government knowing the fate of other executives of semi-State organisations. He may think that if he offers too severe a criticism his future as chairman could be in doubt. I say he should accept his role on the basis that he is working on behalf of the 9,000 staff and 3,000 sub-contractors and he should take their side. He should not cover up for the fact that the Government are not carrying out their responsibilities in relation to the capital allocation, which commitment would have been honoured by Fianna Fáil if they were in Government.

I welcome the innovations by An Post in respect of special Christmas stamps and the production of cards for St. Patrick's Day and Valentine's Day. All of those promotions are welcome. However, I favour the printing of stamps as opposed to the card and stamp. The production of St. Patrick's Day cards has placed Irish manufacturers in some difficulties. I urge An Post to have special stamps for Christmas, St. Patrick's Day and Valentine's Day and also to have stamps for Easter. This would encourage people to send more cards through the post.

In relation to charges generally, there were hidden increases in February and now the people are realising what happened. Today I received a letter addressed to me at Dáil Éireann which carried a 26p stamp. It was a reasonable amount having regard to the size of the envelope. However, an additional charge of 20p was made, making a total of 46p for this relatively small piece of mail. Since February there has been a major change with regard to cost. The public are only now becoming aware of the hidden increases that were imposed at that time.

I receive regular complaints particularly from businessmen who send items through the post. The receiver is surcharged if the mail is over a certain weight. I appeal to An Post to inform the public exactly what size, shape and weight of mail is covered by a 26p stamp and a 22p stamp. I know of a county councillor who sent a letter to his local authority on behalf of his constituents. He put a 26p stamp on the letter but this was not adequate and the county council would not accept the letter because there was a surcharge of 50p on it. He was surcharged when he received the letter back. The new charges have been implemented but I do not believe the public are aware of the new regulations regarding size and weight. An Post should embark on an advertising campaign to acquaint the public of the changes.

I should like the Minister to inform the House about progress in relation to the introduction of the post bus. This was introduced in County Clare during our term in office. There is much to be said for this service. It is a magnificent utilisation of transport in rural areas and I urge An Post to expand this service.

Television licences are a serious bone of contention between RTE, An Post and the Department of Communications. There are 720,000 licensed television sets. At present a licence costs £52 per annum. Although the charge is high the payment of the amount at one time is what is causing difficulty. Stamps which allowed for the easy payment of television licences were withdrawn as a result of fraud but it should not be beyond the bounds of possibility for An Post to device an easy payment method. The number of unlicensed sets make it imperative that the method of payment be made as simple as possible. I should like the Minister to make some comment about that and request An Post to introduce such a service to the public. As regards free television licences for old age pensioners and others, they are only entitled to a licence for a black and white set. This should be extended to cover coloured sets. The majority of sets are now coloured and the fact that free licences cover only black and white sets is petty.

I regret the Minister's interference in relation to the running of RTE over the last 12 months. It is obvious to all concerned that the Minister wishes to exert total political control over broadcasting, particularly in current affairs. The proposal to split up RTE will be opposed by us as it is a method to privatise sections of RTE. The strength of the organisation lies in the unity of radio and television broadcasting and the combined news gathering methods used by RTE which are second to none. Any changes in this area will be opposed by the staff of RTE and the public. RTE as a semi-State organisation and our national broadcasting organisation are doing a fine job as far as broadcasting is concerned. However, there is room for improvement in any organisation. We are not getting enough regional participation and there is not enough emphasis on regional news nor is there sufficient utilisation of the regional studio network. I welcome the extension of the network and the provision of electronic news gathering devices in Galway, Castlebar, Waterford and other areas but there should be direct news broadcasts from the regions on a weekly basis. That would provide a proper regional service and I appeal to the Minister to indicate publicly if he would be in favour of this.

The recent appointment of the new RTE Authority is open to question. The Minister said that the new Authority was appointed on 1 June 1985 for a period of five years. He also said that in discussions in the House last March, the Taoiseach made it clear that appointments to the new Authority would be based on merit and not on political affiliation. He also stated that the appointments bear this out and had been accepted by the public as such. They do not bear that out and are as political as any of those previous Coalition Governments made. Mr. Frank Flannery has been appointed. As is well known, he is one of the national handlers. The appointment of such a prominent party activist casts doubt on the impartiality and independence of the RTE Authority. It is obvious the Minister will have his own people there to ensure that the Government side will be looked after at all times.

The non-appointment of the outgoing chairman. Mr. Fred O'Donovan, who has served the Authority well over the last few years is regretted. It has been a precedent that retiring chairmen were appointed to the Authority because of the expertise they could bring to the job. The non-appointment of Mr. Con Murphy, Mr. Crosby and Mr. Barry are also regretted. By their action the Government are guaranteeing that the Authority will have the Government slant at all times.

I am disappointed that a broadcaster of the calibre of Mr. Pat Kenny would accept an appointment from the Minister for Communications. A broadcaster engaged in current affairs programmes must not only be impartial but be seen to be impartial. I admire the work of Mr. Kenny in the broadcasting area. He is very bright, intelligent and has contributed greatly to the popularity of RTE current affairs and musical programmes. However, he will have to work twice as hard in the future to prove his unquestionable impartiality. He has expressed reservations about talking on the job and has stated that he will have to opt out of meetings of the Authority when they are discussing pay and conditions of other broadcasters in that area. He has prejudiced his own outstanding and known impartiality in relation to broadcasting matters because he has accepted this appointment. It would be difficult for a broadcaster in a current affairs programme to adopt an impartial approach in relation to a man who appointed him as a member of the board.

Because of my admiration for Pat Kenny and the work he is doing I regret that he will now have great difficulty in proving his impartiality in the broadcasting area. He cannot be accepted as a workers' representative on the board of RTE because he has not been elected by fellow workers. On that point, I should like the Minister to indicate why the Government have not seen fit to introduce worker participation in relation to the appointment of members to the board of RTE. In addition, I am disappointed that the Minister of State did not see fit to ensure that someone from the Connacht region was appointed to the board. So far as I am aware no member of the board has a farming background and since agriculture is our major industry, it is regrettable that there is no one on the board of RTE who has a knowledge of farming and who would be able to assist in relation to certain programmes.

Regarding the appointment to the Authority of a Northern representative, Dr. Stanley Worell, who was appointed to the Authority by Fianna Fáil, was replaced subsequently by the Coalition's appointee, Mr. Frank Flannery. At that stage the Government had very little commitment to the appointment of a representative from the Northern part of our country. In principle I welcome fully the appointment of Northern representatives to the boards of semi-State bodies. However, the appointment to the RTE Authority of a leading member of the BBC in Northern Ireland, Mr. W.D. Flackes, is a cause of some concern in regard to the motives that may be behind that appointment. For a long time the distinguished person was the trusted voice of the political establishment in Northern Ireland. One must ask whether the appointment is part of the pattern of trying to increase British and Unionist influence in Ireland, a pattern that seems to be part of the Government's policy at this stage?

Recently this person produced a book entitled, Northern Ireland — A Political Directory. This publication has a very subtle but definite anti-nationalist bias. The journalist in question has the highest professional credentials but I am concerned about the publishers of the work and about the usage to which the directory is intended to be put. It has been noted that this work of reference was published by Ariel Books but I must ask whether this company have any connection with the Ariel Foundation. The name is fairly unusual. In a recent book by authors Black and Fitzgerald there is the allegation that the foundation is intended to be a fund for British intelligence. We would be happy to be reassured that there is no connection and that the use of the rather unusual name, Ariel, in both instances is purely coincidental. Otherwise the implications would be alarming.

In relation to the broadcasting area generally and having regard to this being International Youth Year, I suggest that RTE promote further talent within the broadcasting area both in respect of radio and television. I am not saying that we are becoming tired of the constant use of the same broadcasters. Even during the summer schedule when such well known broadcasters as Gay Byrne are on holidays, the broadcasters being used are ones who have been around for quite a while. These are all very popular broadcasters but it would seem that there is some kind of circle within RTE by which they ensure that there are no new faces emerging. For a country of our size it is a great credit to us that we have produced people of such undoubted ability in the broadcasting area as Terry Wogan, Henry Kelly and Eamon Andrews. The leading broadcasters in Britain are of Irish origin but it is remarkable that there seems to be a shortage of new faces in so far as RTE are concerned. Surely in this International Youth Year RTE should embark on a talent spotting competition with a view to bringing forward new talents for the years ahead. Popular as the present front runners may be, no one is irreplaceable and the public are crying out for changes in regard to programmes generally.

I compliment RTE on the changes that have taken place in the area of current affairs programmes. The two new programmes, "Morning Ireland" and "Today at 5" have been very widely accepted and are very popular. They are here to stay. The morning programme attracts a very large listening audience and there are some other very good RTE current affairs programmes also. Some may say that we have a little in excess of the number of such programmes required but the audiences will decide which programmes will survive. My only appeal in this regard is that there is a fair contribution from all sides, particularly on the political side. In a brief survey conducted at the beginning of the year we found that from early January to the beginning of April in respect of the "Morning Ireland" programme there were more than 37 interviews with Fine Gael Deputies or Senators, 24 interviews with Fianna Fáil Deputies or Senators while the figure in respect of Labour was about 15. Independents and The Workers' Party were interviewed also for that programme. We were in a minority situation with 24 interviews as against a total of 52 and that is not a fair balance as between the Coalition and Fianna Fáil. Therefore, I am saying to the producers of that programme that I am not satisfied with the number of Fianna Fáil people being invited to contribute to the programme, compared with the Government side. I am not saying that the programme is biased in any way and while I congratulate the producers on the fine work they are doing, I must inform them that I am watching the programme from the point of view of the proportion of participation of non-Government spokespersons, whether they be Deputies, Senators or councillors. I am asking only for fair play. As a party who achieve more than 50 per cent of the popular vote we are entitled to at least 50 per cent of participation in such programmes. The programme is very popular and it has contributed greatly to an awareness on the part of the public of current affairs generally.

The Government have failed dismally to introduce the legislation for the establishment of an independent local radio broadcasting authority. On 29 November 1984, the Minister for Communications wrote in a letter to me that regarding my inquiry, he was hoping to be in a position to circulate the Bill within the following weeks. We are now well into the month of June and the Bill has not been published yet. This morning the Minister told us he hopes the Bill will be passed before the summer recess but having regard to the programme of legislation before the House it seems unlikely that the Bill will become law before the autumn session.

I believe the reason for this delay is that there is total division within the Cabinet in relation to the introduction of an independent local radio authority. In this area there is an ideological split between the Labour Party on the one hand and Fine Gael on the other in relation to the participation of public service broadcasting in respect of local radio. People are crying out for the services of legalised, local radio. The present position is totally unacceptable and has been for some time. There is a demand for independent, local radio. Yet legislation has not been brought forward to allow people to participate in that area on a legal basis. The void has been filled by the pirate stations — illegal as they may be — which have been welcomed by the public.

The responsibility for the delay in bringing forward legislation rests with the Government. After two and a half years in office they have failed dismally in this respect. It is evidence of the inactivity of this administration, that they are not prepared, are not capable of and not sufficiently united to introduce legislation to establish legal community radio. With the assistance of a Minister of State with responsibility for communications, Deputy Nealon, surely after two and a half years this Government are not still arguing about the composition of the relevant authority.

The confusion between the Minister himself and his Minister of State is quite evident. The Minister of State suggested that over 30 local radio stations could be established while the Minister himself mentioned a number of seven. I do not think anybody has decided finally on the number, which will depend to a greater or lesser extent on the demand for licences throughout the country. It will be difficult to place a limit only on the basis of the actual wavebands involved. During this local elections campaign it has been brought to my attention by a number of people that communications are so important and that local radio would put people directly in touch with each other. I believe we are now missing a major opportunity and have done so over the last four or five years. There are so many young people who would be in a position to gain good employment in this area, both on the technical and broadcasting fronts. It would also serve as a training ground for new talent in relation to our national broadcasting services, radio and television. Local radio services would provide people with a great opportunity to be involved in the broadcasting area, people who could graduate from there to our national broadcasting service.

It is unlikely this Government will ever bring forward an independent local broadcasting authority Bill. I look forward to the early return to office of Fianna Fáil. I can assure the House that within four months of our returning to office we will have a Bill passed by this House, the relevant authority established, with legal stations on the air within six months of our return to office. That is the type of work time scale I believe to be quite manageable. But the Government have failed in this as in other areas.

In relation to long wave radio broadcasting I would ask the Minister to support the submission by RTE to the Department of Communications to establish a long wave radio broadcasting service on frequency allocated to Ireland by the Regional Administrative Broadcasting Conference of 1975. This would provide further opportunities to our broadcasters, producers and technicians and create export earnings from advertising.

In relation to television deflectors I believe the Government could and should bring forward legislation to provide for the establishment of licensed television deflectors to provide multi-channel viewing in rural areas where cable systems would not be feasible. The fact that the Government have refused to bring forward legislation to legalise deflectors has again resulted in the illegal erection of deflectors in rural areas. I have made it quite clear, that as far as I am concerned, there is no technical reason that deflectors cannot be legalised. Legislation could be introduced in this House to allow people in rural areas to avail themselves of the same services as are enjoyed by those in urban areas.

Department are totally opposed to the legislation of deflectors. I know they will advise the Minister that it is not feasible. I believe it is the civil servant's right to advise but it is the right of the Minister to bring forward policy. If the Minister himself feels it possible to introduce legislation, then he should not be deterred. From my experience in the Department dealing with communities throughout the country, there is a great need for the introduction of legalised deflectors to provide multi-channel viewing particularly in rural areas.

In relation to satellite broadcasting I note that the Minister has studied the position very carefully. It will be a major decision on the part of the Government to award a franchise to the company involved and it is only correct that this be given a fair hearing.

We shall oppose this Estimate on many grounds but principally because it does not provide proper funding for An Post and Telecom Éireann. Neither does it provide the proper policy framework in relation to broadcasting generally. The Minister has failed dismally to provide any funding whatsoever for the establishment of a local radio service. Within this Estimate there is not one provision for the establishment of a local radio authority. It is quite obvious that the Minister and the Government have no commitment whatsoever to bringing about a situation in which an independent local radio service will be set up. We shall oppose this Estimate on that basis because we feel it to be inadequate in its provision for services over the next 12 months. Over the past 12 months the semi-State organisations, particularly RTE, Telecom Éireann and An Post have been deprived of proper leadership by the Minister.

In the course of the debate on this Estimate I should like to deal primarily with the question of aviation policy which I regard as of fundamental importance to the general economic well-being of this country in terms of tourism, one of our most important industries, and in terms also of manufacturing industry and, in particular, exports. I want to relate what I have to say to the damage which I believe the existing regulatory policy in this country does to the overall national and economic interest and to ask that that be changed. In the past month or two we have had the opportunity to talk about different specific aspects of that on Committee Stage of the Air Transport Bill but as you, Sir, and other occupants of the Chair from time to time have correctly pointed out to me, one cannot speak in general terms on Committee Stage. It is open to me to speak in general terms rather than on just specific points. One of the matters I want to deal with in the course of what I have to say is the controversy that arose out of remarks which I made here at the opening of the Committee Stage of that Bill on 1 May last.

Debate adjourned.
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