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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 3 Jul 1985

Vol. 360 No. 2

Private Members' Business. - Irish Steel Holdings Limited: Motion (Resumed).

The following motion was moved by Deputy Lyons on Tuesday, 2 July 1985:
That Dáil Éireann calls on the Government to take all the necessary action to ensure the continuance of Irish Steel Holdings Limited.
Debate resumed on amendment No. 1:
To delete all words after "Dáil Éireann" and substitute the following:—
"expresses its confidence that the Government in taking a decision on the request from Irish Steel Ltd. for additional support in the light of its financial results in 1984-85 will consider all the relevant facts including the potential commercial viability of the Haulbowline plant; the impact which closure would have on the Cork area; the effectiveness of cost cutting measures recently announced by the company, and, the competing demands for scarce Exchequer resources."
—Minister for Industry, Trade, Commerce and Tourism.

Last night, when I had the opportunity of speaking here, I outlined many of the reasons I believed it was essential to the economic life of Cork that Irish Steel and the jobs therein should be maintained because we had already suffered too many body-blows in the employment scene recently. I said that we could not afford to lose another 650 jobs plus the spin-off estimated at 400 jobs — although the Minister alleged that that was an exaggeration — in other industries in the region. Cork cannot afford to lose these jobs. We must be very clear on the meaning of the motion and amendment before us. One of the factors taken into account in the amendment is the effectiveness of cost cutting measures recently announced by the company. By voting for that measure the Deputies opposite, especially the Labour Members, are voting to support the cost cutting measures announced by the chairman to the workers on 13 June. The statement from the chairman said:

At a special meeting of the Board last week, we came to inescapable conclusions. The first — and most important — is the company will face financial problems later this year.

If the outflow of cash is not staunched at once, the Board will be left with no alternative but to recommend to the Minister that the plant cease to trade and, in fact, close down.

The following decisions, therefore, have been taken by the Board:

1. There will be an instant pay freeze at all levels until the end of 1986.

2. The numbers employed by the company will be reduced by approximately 100 persons.

3. Redundancy payments will be restricted to statutory requirements plus one week's pay for every year of service.

4. The 1.7 per cent increase by way of analogue review for 1984 which was recommended by the Labour Court will be paid.

These decisions are the only way to resolve the crisis in our industry and to extend the life of the company. In consequence, they are not negotiable.

There is a Government policy both on analogue payments and the measure of redundancy payments in State Bodies. For this reason, I have to add that payment of the analogue of 1.7 per cent and an extra week over statutory redundancy payments will require Government approval.

I am not here to campaign for or to seek huge redundancy payments. I want the preservation of jobs. If a package of measures is being introduced and if reasonable, long and loyal service has been given by a group of people in the company, they are entitled to be considered if there is a commitment to the company continuing in existence with the remaining workforce.

The offer of redundancy is small by comparison with figures paid, even by State companies, in the Cork area. However, if it is dependent — and I hope it is not — on those 100 jobs being lost, then there must be reasonable and meaningful negotiations. If agreement cannot be reached, the workers should not be blamed for any tough measures which may have to be taken. It must be pointed out very clearly to the Members on the opposite side of the House that by voting for the amendment they are saying that the workers must accept the company's offer, that this is the end of the road and that we may hope for more later on. I say that very respectfully because I thought the Minister's speech last night was very reasonable, although I did not think it was as optimistic as my local newspaper seemed to think in its headline this morning. The Minister said that there may be some assistance forthcoming for unemployed or redundant steel workers from Europe, and I hope that there will be. However, it is all very vague and we need more information in that regard. Many questions remained to be answered after the Minister's speech last night and one of the most important was in regard to how soon we will know the amounts to which workers were entitled.

We want to preserve the jobs in Irish Steel and the economic climate which the continuance of Irish Steel means. Last night Deputy Lyons referred to the contribution of Irish Steel to the balance of payments and to exports. What happens if Irish Steel is not there? What about all the imports for our construction industry? I quoted from Business and Finance last night, and the person who wrote the article from which I quoted went on to say: “Thank God, nobody mentioned the strategic importance of Irish Steel”. That was a defeatist approach by the writer of that article because it is essential to produce as much of our own steel as possible. I should like us to be in a position where we could produce all our steel requirements, but obviously European and world trends dictate otherwise. Rationalisation programmes carried out over a number of years by successive Governments mean that only certain lines are now being produced here, but my recent visit to Irish Steel indicated that a lot of progress had been made, that modernisation and rationalisation had taken place and that a committed workforce were doing an excellent job.

Last night I pointed out that the major problems affecting them were outside factors beyond the control of Irish Steel management or workers. Labour costs were referred to as being high, but the responsibility of the workforce and the reasonable absentee rate is an indication of a commitment which is all too scarce in so many other Irish industries.

I should like to remind Deputies opposite that if they vote for the Government amendment they are finalising the nonnegotiable cost cutting measures announced by the chairman. They should look closely at the unconditional Fianna Fáil motion first. Our motion is the Government amendment without the dangerous conditions attached. Government Members should support it. There is a precedent for such action. When in Opposition Members opposite voted to nationalise the private enterprise Fieldcrest concern. They do not have to nationalise Irish Steel. It is a State company that we should preserve. We should protect the badly-needed jobs in the company for the Cork region.

In my contribution I will be appealing that every effort be made to keep Irish Steel open and made a viable proposition in the years ahead. Our amendment does not put us in a position of voting for the closure of Irish Steel. To say it does is wrong, like many of the statements made last night. The Fianna Fáil motion will not achieve anything for Irish Steel. It is an exercise to win votes and influence the electorate. Opposition contributions last night strengthened my opinion on that, because no suggestions were put forward in regard to how Irish Steel can be made viable except to put in more money and let the company carry on as before. If we put £24 million in this year and do not seriously consider the position in the company and the options that must be taken, we will be back again next year looking for more money for the company. We cannot continue to do that indefinitely.

It is easy for the Opposition to demand more taxpayers' money for the company and say that electricity charges to the company be reduced without taking into consideration their earlier demands for lower taxation. The money sought for Irish Steel will have to come from the taxpayers and the demands for reduced electricity charges for Irish Steel will have to be offset by higher charges to domestic consumers. Are Fianna Fáil in favour of lower prices to industry even if that will result in higher domestic prices for electricity? They have not spelled that out to date.

The Fianna Fáil motion does not do anything except bring this serious Cork problem into a political arena at a time when talks between management and unions are about to commence.

Are they aware of that?

They are. Some of the workers involved are present for the debate and I have told them that we cannot allow further taxpayers' money to be put into the operation in Haulbowline without examining in detail the reasons the industry has been so uneconomic to date. We must closely examine all the facts involved and then decide if the plant can be saved. We must also take into consideration, as mentioned by the Minister, the social position in Cork because of recent closures. Having taken all those factors into consideration the Government must make a decision whether to allocate more money to Irish Steel.

I have a personal interest in Irish Steel because I have close relatives working there. My brother-in-law works at the plant. The company is as close to me as to anybody else in Cork city and county. I am in favour of keeping the plant open, but serious questions must be answered. If we do not face up to those questions now we will have to face them next year or the following year. The sooner they are dealt with the better. There is a serious contradiction between the proposals put forward to eliminate 100 jobs in Irish Steel and the fact that the company paid £2 million in overtime in 1984. How can we explain that contradiction to the people — that we eliminate 100 jobs having paid £1.4 million in overtime in 1983-84 and £2 million last year? In fact, I have been told that the figure this year will be much greater. There is a need for an explanation in regard to that.

If the Government invest £24 million in Irish Steel this year, will that ensure the future viability of the plant? In my opinion it will not. The future of the plant can only be assured by an in depth study of the operation and following major surgery in the technical management of the plant. The chairman's rhetoric in 1984, when he said that the position would improve and that the plant would be self-financing within a short time, was seriously misleading. The problem will get worse before it improves. There must be a close examination of the management structure.

I believe that £6 million will keep Irish Steel running until early 1986 and I appeal to the Minister to make a strong recommendation to the Cabinet that that money be made available on condition that by early 1986 proposals will be put forward and agreed to by management and unions in Irish Steel to bring about a more efficient operation. If the workforce is properly motivated and the "them and us" attitude which prevails in Irish Steel is reduced and, if possible, eliminated, the company will succeed. Having discussed the matter with workers in recent weeks, I am satisfied that it is possible to do that. All that is required is time.

A report was submitted to senior management in December 1983 which, if adopted, would eliminate a lot of the problems for the company. However, the recommendations in the document were, I regret to say, generally ignored. We now find Irish Steel seeking further investment to keep the company ticking over inefficiently. The case I am putting forward this evening is politically dangerous for me and may be represented as such by my political opponents. I am putting forward the case in good faith because I believe that the improvements required can be achieved by goodwill all around and proper motivation of the workforce. The mill is one of the most modern in the world. Targets are being achieved, but only by paying massive sums in overtime. We have been told that the mill had a down time, that it was not operating at full capacity. It was operating a total of 97,530 minutes as against the available rolling time of 190,475 minutes in the period January to September 1983. That means that for 51.75 per cent of its possible operating time it was not operating. Over half of the available mill rolling time was attributed to the down time. That is a serious problem and I have been told that the position will be as serious this year. The latest figures show that the mill's down time, when it was not operating, in 1984-85 was 1,960 hours. The total tonnage produced in the same period was 170,000 tonnes.

We must question a figure of £2 million for overtime last year. That could be eliminated if realistic discussions took place and there was proper management at the plant. The whole emphasis seems to be on obtaining redundancies in Irish Steel rather than trying to make the plant more efficient. There has been also a question as to how big the lump sum would be. I accept that that is important to those likely to lose their jobs. Unfortunately, a monster has been created in the Cork region in recent times — redundancies. Those who receive a big lump sum will enjoy 18 or 19 months of heaven but, as Deputy Fitzgerald said last night, after that time people face the prospect of not having any income because they cannot obtain unemployment assistance. However, we must tackle the monster of high redundancy payments. We should cease talking about job losses and redundancies and look at the real rasons why factories are closing.

It is untrue to say that the Government are not committed to Irish Steel. I have spoken to the Minister, Deputy Bruton, and others and I have detected that they are committed to the continuation of Irish Steel provided the inefficiency and the commitment required from the Government can be reduced. Consultants have been brought in and reports have issued but even at this late stage there must be a real in-depth examination of the Irish Steel operation and the areas of serious losses must be faced up to and dealt with. Management and unions would appreciate this.

Why are Irish Steel constantly looking for more money from the taxpayers? Why is the mill not functioning properly, since it is a modern mill? Why is there such a long close-down time? Why is there so much overtime? Why are targets being met only by a great deal of overtime? These questions have to be resolved before Irish Steel are given an indefinite commitment to future operations, because if we do not face up to these questions now, we are only putting off the evil day of closure and unless major structural changes are made, that day is just being postponed.

I spent many hours speaking to people at different levels in the company in recent months and one comment that surfaced regularly was bad leadership in the company. This problem must be tackled first. There must be leadership because without leadership you cannot motivate a workforce and there must be an elimination of the "them and us" attitude.

I appeal to the Government to give the company the £6 million necessary to stay open until early 1986. I say this realising that if the money is given there will still be a risk of failure unless the industry achieves a consistency of production and reduces costs. I realise that the difficulties facing the industry are enormous, and they were spelled out last night — the high price of scrap, high energy costs which have to be tackled at some stage and so on. It would be irresponsible and misleading if I were to minimise these difficulties at this time. There is no guarantee and the only way out is if the people in the company get their act together, starting at the top.

However, if we all keep talking about the unacceptable levels of this and that and how this or that problem can be controlled nothing will be achieved. The objectives must be realistic. If there are problems — and I have said there are — they must be highlighted and discussed openly by management and unions. The time for platitudes and persuasion is over. There must be agreement between unions and management. There must be meaningful discussions about the problems, irrespective of who is offended.

I know from speaking to the staff in Irish Steel that the majority of the workers have a desire to see the plant survive, but what seems to be lacking is a sense of leadership and a sense of urgency coupled with vision and management techniques. The issues of excessive overtime, unacceptable downtime, energy costs and so on must be tackled. From reading some of the reports it seems that the appointment of new highly qualified senior engineering management in the plant is essential and this must be considered.

Some of my suggestions might give the impression that I am asking for more money for this management but as an amateur in the steel business I believe there is a need for a different kind of technical management in this firm and that can only be obtained by further investment. I am asking the Minister to give Irish Steel some time to get over their difficulties, to iron out the problems in the company, and hopefully the economic climate might make the market for scrap more attractive. I am suggesting that we play for time for a number of months.

I want to contrast the wording of Fianna Fáil's motion with the Minister's amendment. In my view it is not responsible in the present climate to say effectively that we should keep Irish Steel Holdings open at whatever price for evermore. That, basically, is what is implied in the Fianna Fáil motion. The Minister is being responsible and sensitive. There are four criteria in his amendment — commercial viability, the impact which the closure would have on the Cork area, the effectiveness of cost-cutting measures and the question of competing demands for scarce Exchequer resources. I would like to dwell a little on those four points because they are the type of criteria on which every sensitive decision of this kind has to, and should be, made.

On the question of commercial viability, the first thing that has to be said is that the actual losses for 1984 and 1985 are practically double the projected losses. There is no doubt that the reasons for that were mainly external factors but, nevertheless the reality is that the company are in a disastrous loss-making position.

Last night the Minister explained in some detail the external factors over which the management and staff of Irish Steel have no control whatsoever, the question of scrap prices and the impossibility of matching the sale price of the product to the escalating cost of scrap. There is no doubt that sympathy has to be extended to a company who find themselves making a serious loss because of circumstances outside their control.

The Minister also alluded to maximising efficiency in the plant. Mammoth steps have been taken over the last two or three years improving efficiency but there is still some way to go. It would be pure nonsense to talk about perfection in the plant with all the problems arising from external factors only. That kind of situation rarely exists. In relation to the future and on the issue of commercial viability, the Minister said that currently Irish Steel could not now be considered strictly viable in the commercial sense of the word. That is certainly a sobering statement and one which must cause great concern and alarm in Irish Steel. There is no doubt that the taxpayer, while he may and we hope will come once again to Cork, will not permanently underwrite losses in that company unless the question of commercial viability is satisfactorily resolved.

The next criterion in the Minister's amendment is that of the impact of closure on Cork. This Government have always been criticised for their supposed monetarism, insensitivity and so on but the Minister has put into his statement that the impact of closure on Cork is a central factor in his recommendation to Government. No Cork Deputy needs to be reminded that the Cork region has been devastated, in particular that the heart has been torn out of the traditional industrial base — Fords, Dunlops and Verolme dockyard — and that the survival of Irish Steel is more than a matter of commercial viability. It would have a disastrous effect on the morale of the people and would add very significantly to a particularly difficult situation in the Cobh area. Irish Steel spread their influence, of course, far from Cobh. I am pleased to note that the amendment contains that criterion.

The next criterion inserted in the amendment is the effectiveness of cost cutting measures. Last night, the Minister mentioned the necessity of reducing labour costs by at least 10 per cent. Deputy Allen has mentioned issues relating to excessive downtime and excessive overtime and the subject of absenteeism was mentioned. I bow to the knowledge of Deputy Fitzgerald, former Minister for Labour, but I would not have thought that absenteeism of the level of 8 to 9 per cent was something of which to be proud, even though there may be other industries with a worse record. I know, for example, that some of the modern computer industries which employ, by and large, very young people and have pretty enlightened management — which presumably is a factor in all this — have absenteeism rates in some of the factories down to 1 per cent.

They are not comparable.

I understand that they are not comparable in the sense that the nature of the work in Irish Steel is not pleasant, with hot and noisy conditions and so on. However, I would not have thought one would be speaking in glowing terms of absenteeism of that level. That is another issue, perhaps not a major one but one which also needs tackling.

I found it strange for the management to say in their recent statement that they would have to shed 100 jobs and do this and that, and that that was the end of it, that they do not negotiate. I would regard that as a sign, not of strong management, but of a management that lack the confidence to negotiate their position. Certainly, they seem to lack confidence in the attitude of those working there who must, in the end, agree to these measures if the plant is to be saved.

One would question from top to bottom the whole efficiency of the operation because one must. If you cannot deal with the external factors over which you have no control, then you, at least, must try to deal with the factors over which you have some control. It would be purely fantasy to say that everything in Irish Steel is absolutely fine, that all the problems are external and one cannot do anything about them. If that is the case, which I do not believe, then there would be no point in throwing good money after bad. Clearly, the question of effectiveness of cost cutting measures must be a criterion in the Minister's recommendation on this issue.

Last night, the Minister raised the question of seeking funds from the EC to finance redundancy and provide grants for re-employment. That shows that the Government recognise the problem and are prepared to do everthing within their power to try to alleviate the hardship which may be caused in the event of some redundancies arising, as they inevitably will.

The last criterion to which the Minister referred was the question of competing demands on scarce Exchequer resources. We live in a climate in which high taxation is crippling people at all levels, particuarly in the PAYE sector; it has become a positive disincentive to enterprise and is certainly holding up the growth and development of the economy. On top of that, we have very heavy borrowing and crippling debt repayments. To further aggravate the position, people generally are annoyed by cuts in public expenditure and consequently in services. In that crippling bind, it would be quite irresponsible for the Minister and the Government not to raise the issue of whether one can justify this order of money when there are so many other competing demands on an overtaxed and overburdened people.

They are the main criteria and they are important. There are one or two other issues to which I would refer. I would like to say something about the recent history of this issue in this House and, in particular, the debate which we had on 28 June 1984. In that debate Deputy Reynolds, who led for the Opposition, made a most responsible contribution. I would like to refer to one or two things which he said, as follows:

We are talking here about £90 million of taxpayers' money and the least the people are entitled to expect is that we will show responsibility in the way we deal with that.

He chides the Minister for not displaying sufficient commerciality in his judgment of the matter, saying:

I suggest to the Minister that he is not applying the commercial criteria to this decision that he said he would at the outset.

The whole tone of Deputy Reynolds's contribution is that Irish Steel should be looked upon in purely commercial terms. This Government who have always been criticised for doing just that have made a serious retreat, if you like, from that position in the sense that, in addition to commercial viability, they are prepared, willing and anxious to look at other criteria as well to justify the continuation of Irish Steel, as I — and I am sure everybody else — hope will emerge from the Government's consideration in the weeks ahead.

I wish to refer briefly to the annual report of Irish Steel and to the chairman's statement of last year in which he said:

The decisions of the Government and the Commission to assist the Company are contingent on some rigid conditions. The most important is that Irish Steel must be financially viable by the end of 1985. In short, there is no question of further funding. The Company will have to finance operations from now onwards in a normal, commercial manner.

That is the manner in which the chairman of the company summed up the position last September. Nobody should be in any doubt that there is a grave anxiety on the part of the Government, as there was previously on the part of the Opposition, that this company must get out of their problems and prove to be commercially viable.

I visited the mill when I was Lord Mayor of Cork in 1983 and was extremely impressed with everything I saw, although I am no expert in the matter. It was a most impressive plant. In the company of other Cork Deputies, I met a group of union and staff representatives from Irish Steel recently and was very much impressed by their attitude. There are very good signs as well as a difficult situation. I hope that when the Government in the weeks immediately ahead come to make their decision on the basis of the responsible criteria which the Minister has set down, the balance of overall advantage will be tipped in favour of a further and final investment in Irish Steel and that, as we all hope, Irish Steel will respond — staff, management and board of directors — positively to that final act of confidence on the part of the Government and of the taxpayer.

It has become a habit here in the past few months for Cork Deputies to plead for the saving of an industry. I can appreciate that Deputies opposite have to try to establish a case for their Government. I know this is expected of them.

The steel industry is a vital asset to any nation, whether in time of war or peace. It is part of the social and economic structure in the development of a nation. Threats and rumours of war can affect the supply of steel for our own requirements and this must be foremost in any decisions made by the Government regarding the future of Irish Steel Holdings. They must also bear in mind the disastrous impact that any suggestion of the closure of Irish Steel would have on the Cork region which has suffered already from the closure of Ford, Dunlop, Verolme and other smaller industries.

We must remember that the £98 million received from the Government was used to repay outstanding borrowings but since then there has been a significant advance in the working and efficiency of this industry. It would be wrong to say the £98 million was given with a clean sheet. It was a repayment of a debt and we should be under no illusions about it. Credit must be given to the industry for what they have done since they received that cash injection.

There has been an increase in production of an additional 40,000 tonnes of steel as compared with a year ago and I understand the volume should read 200,000 tonnes by next year. There is no question of not finding a market for this product. As the Minister knows, at present the British market is very promising and Irish Steel also trade with other countries.

Throughout Europe the steel industry is experiencing difficulties similar to those occurring here. However, the European governments concerned are making every effort to safeguard and protect their own industries. It is clear that part of the problem comes from countries outside the EC. The Council of Ministers must take positive action. They must introduce restrictions on the export of scrap to countries outside the Community. I impress on the Minister and his Government to do everything possible to bring about a greater realisation in the Council of Minister of the problems of our steel industry. We are in Europe and we should be protected by Europe. In his statement last night the Minister told us he raised the matter with the Council of Ministers but to no effect. We should be demanding this kind of protection. It is our industry. We are a member of the EC and they are under an obligation to protect an industry such as Irish Steel.

The Minister referred to an EC Commission report entitled General Objectives for Steel, 1990 and he said it made depressing reading. I do not think it was that depressing. There is some hope in the report, especially where structural and mechanical engineering are concerned. Irish Steel produce a number of products to meet this kind of development. All of this is set out in the report.

The cost of energy to Irish Steel Holdings places them in a disadvantageous position. For instance, this year their ESB bill will be in the region of £10 million, but a steel industry outside London will be better off to the extent of 60 per cent. The Minister should meet the Minister for Energy and discuss this problem with him. He should remove this anomaly so far as Irish Steel are concerned.

I do not usually refer to a speech by another Deputy but I think Deputy Allen said it is very easy to talk about shifting the price to the ESB and that the taxpayers would have to pay. I hope I am not misquoting him in that. The question must be asked: who pays for statutory redundancies and social welfare benefits? The answer is the taxpayers.

I did not say the choice was redundancies. I put forward some ideas. I have tried to avoid redundancies.

By the closure of Irish Steel we are transferring that liability from the taxpayers to social welfare and statutory redundancies. It is the taxpayers who have to pay the bill. We are talking about 650 people employed in the industry, in addition to a further 400 people in other industries who have dealings with Irish Steel.

I hoped last night that the Minister would give us some positive indication regarding the future of Irish Steel. However, on reading his speech I am afraid of the psychological effect it will have on the workforce. When we were discussing Dunlop, Ford and Verolme I said that as soon as one starts talking about a factory closing workers lose interest in their industry. Certainly the workers in Irish Steel have not lost interest in their firm.

Recently the Minister paid a visit to Irish Steel and he saw the situation for himself. I am confident that in his interview with management there was no question of the industry being overmanned or of any problem other than that of marketing. However, suddenly a statement was issued most unexpectedly by the chairman of Irish Steel. Because of the time the statement was made one would assume that some directive was given by the Government to the chairman. He was very positive in what he was saying and I am not for a moment criticising him. One sentence in his statement read:

These decisions are the only way to resolve the crisis in our industry and to extend the life of the company. In consequence they are not negotiable.

We seem to be drifting from one very important principle regarding labour relations. It was always understood, no matter how bad things were, that everything was for negotiation. I fail to understand that statement released shortly after the Minister's visit.

Not shortly after the visit.

The 29th April.

This statement was released shortly after your visit, Minister.

Please address the Chair, Deputy.

The statement was released shortly after the Minister's visit.

All right, I will accept that but we may produce evidence that it was released——

There was quite a considerable gap between my visit, which was purely to see the plant, and the decision of the board and there was no connection between the two. Whatever connection the Deputy is trying to make between my visit to the plant and the decision of the board in regard to restructuring, there is no such connection.

I accept that. I hope to produce evidence later that the Minister did pay a visit.

I did pay a visit. It would be very difficult to visit Irish Steel without it being known.

You almost did it.

According to the March 1985 issue of Metal Bulletin the German steel industry will be seeking financial aid amounting to about £350 million, the French will be seeking financial aid amounting to about £250 million and Italy will be looking for something in the region of £5,000 million. If these countries are making a case for such large sums of money we in Ireland should be making a similar case. We are not talking of that kind of money. It would be worth the Minister's while reading the Metal Bulletin of March 1985. He will see for himself the demands Germany, Italy and France are making for the continuance of employment in their steel industries. This is the kind of case we would expect our Government to be establishing in Europe. It is of vital importance at this stage and no time must be lost in making our case.

Would the Deputy quote that? Are they paying themselves and just seeking permission to pay out of their own Exchequers?

They will be seeking financial aid through the European Parliament of the amounts of money I mentioned.

They are seeking permission to pay through their own Governments.

The Minister knows if it is not available through their own Governments they will come to the Council of Ministers.

That is right.

We are asking the Minister to give some injection of moneys to safeguard the continuance of Irish Steel. There is no question of closing Irish Steel. I do not think that would be accepted by the Government or the Opposition. We know it can be a viable industry. We know it has gone through a very lean period.

Albert Reynolds would have closed it last year.

I did not interrupt Deputy Allen.

The Deputy did not, I am sorry.

We are asking that everything possible be done by the Government to avoid a further disaster in the Cork area. This is the last of the big industries in Cork. Surely we have a right to know exactly the Government's thinking and the Minister's thinking on the future of Irish Steel. It was not written into the Minister's speech here last night. I seem to recall that we read something similar in the case of Irish Dunlop, Fords and Verolme. We were told then that every effort would be made to replace such industries. There is no replacement for Irish Steel. It is an essential industry.

If we were to import our steel what would be the cost to the nation? We see what we are paying for ship repairs now that Verolme dockyards no longer exist.

Deputy Allen said our motion was purely political and that a meeting would be held next week. We do not know about any meeting next week.

It is on the paper. The management said they would be meeting the unions.

We did not interrupt the Deputy.

We are not aware of any meeting next week.

I did not say next week.

You were bluffing then, were you not? You are being caught in the bluff.

I did not bluff about gas prices last night.

Deputy Allen, you had your opportunity. Please allow Deputy Wyse to continue.

The Minister said it might be possible to obtain financial assistance from the EC Commission towards redundancy costs. This is not the case of the German Government, the Italian Government or the French Government. They are not talking about money for redundancy. They are talking about money to retain their industry. It is somewhat disheartening that we come again with the cap in hand begging for something to eliminate employment not just for the present personnel in Irish Steel but for their children and their children to come. This is the importance of this industry. Generations worked in those established industries in the Cork region. Their sons and daughters in the Cobh area, in the Passage area in the whole Cork area always looked to Irish Steel Cork secure and permanent employment. I ask the Minister to bear in mind the importance of providing this kind of employment for our young people. Let us all get together and have a meeting with the management, public representatives in the area and everyone else who is concerned. Let us all work together in the interests of this great industry, because Ireland cannot grow, develop or advance without Irish Steel.

It is sad that the building and construction industry is practically on its knees at present. This too is having an effect on Irish Steel. It has gone through a very lean period. I have no doubt that every Deputy knows of that.

The dedication of the management and workers in trying to keep the industry afloat has surpassed everyone's imagination. I understand that in a radio broadcast last year Deputy Desmond was quoted as saying: "Close it. It is only a white elephant". I am open to correction on that, but I am informed that that is what he said. It is sad that a Minister should express himself in such a way where this industry is concerned.

Mention was made by the Minister of the price of scrap. We would have our heads in the sand if we did not agree that there has been an increase in the price of scrap. Scrap is like other commodities in that the price fluctuates. From all the evidence available there is hope that the price will drop.

We must look at the employment position in Cork and must make an effort to protect our existing industries. I am convinced there is no necessity to talk about the closure of Irish Steel. It is a viable industry and has a highly efficient workforce. The workers have the dedication that is necessary to ensure the prosperity of the company. All that is needed is for the industry to be given the necessary encouragement and money to take it through this lean period and the problems which it is facing. Surely it is not too much for a Deputy representing the Cork area to ask the Government to do that.

What worries me is that we are not getting all the information. The leader of our party paid a visit to Irish Steel recently and apparently everything was rosy then. There was no question of the industry being overmanned. The only problem was in relation to the market. It was extraordinary that a statement should appear from the chairman of the company contradicting everything that was stated at that time to our leader and the other Fianna Fáil representatives. I hope the chairman and executives of the company will discuss the matter with the trade unions and the workers' representatives. I hope everyone will co-ordinate their efforts in order to save this industry. It is a viable industry and one which is essential if we are to build up the economy. In war or peace a steel industry is an essential part of any nation.

I ask the Minister and the Minister of State to start negotiations forthwith with the management, trade unions and public representatives to ensure that this vital industry is saved in the Cork area.

Deputy Ahern has agreed to allow Deputy O'Sullivan to speak until 8.20 p.m.

One criticism I have of both the amendment and the motion is that both understate the importance of Irish Steel. In the amendment it is stated: ".... the impact the closure will have on the Cork area;....". The closure of Irish Steel would not just be of significance to Cork only but would have a detrimental effect on our industrial base.

The setting up of Irish Steel was looked on as one of the major achievements in our industrial development and it is regrettable that we are tonight expressing doubts and deep concern about its future. I agree that there are factors which would leave us in doubt as to its future, but these can be overcome. Things happened in the past which did not help in any way and which in fact have led to the present position.

I do not want to indulge in an attack on the Opposition because that would be a negative approach, but I must respond to Deputy Fitzgerald who saw fit to launch an attack on the Labour Party position last night. One of the problems encountered by Irish Steel was the question of providing the raw material. The Council of Ministers have stonewalled against Irish objections to the export of scrap to Third World countries. I suggest to Deputy Fitzgerald that he, as a member of the European Parliament, should take the initial step to see that this question is resolved. It is of vital importance to Irish Steel and to our industrial base.

The decision is made at the Council of Ministers.

He could initiate discussions at Parliament level which would make the Ministers sit up and listen. I do not have to tell the Deputy how to go about it or give him a crash course in politics. He is long enough in the field to know what to do.

Tell Deputy Bruton what to do at the next meeting. Do not bluff.

There are some things that the Government should do. I will fully support any appeal in the House for a further injection of capital into Irish Steel. I would go further than Deputy Allen in this regard. It is vital that we produce this very basic element in industrial requirements. We have that capacity, and if the cost exceeds £6 million or £7 million, so be it. We are not talking merely about 600 jobs. We are talking about our industrial base. It is fundamental to any industrial policy that we have the capacity to produce this very necessary element.

There is a need to reduce energy costs, and the Government can do something in that direction. I am surprised to hear speakers on the opposite side calling for such a reduction when on 28 June last year, as reported at column 1048 of the Official Report, Deputy Reynolds, for whom I have the utmost respect as a politician and as a man of considerable ability, stated during the debate on the Irish Steel Limited (Amendment) Act, 1984:

But we would be living in fairyland if we thought somebody would not have to pay if the cost of electricity is reduced to Irish Steel. If we are to give a reduction of £12 per ton to Irish Steel — and they are big users of electricity — then may I ask the Minister what is his and the Government's position as to who will pay? Will it be an additional cost to the consumer in order to recoup it for the ESB? I am quite sure the ESB will not be very happy to have to reduce the cost to any particular consumer. If so they would also find themselves in the position — if the Government decided to reduce the price to Irish Steel — that they would have Alcan and other large users knocking at their door the following morning.

It is dishonest of the speakers on the other side to come here asking for a reduction in the cost to Irish Steel when their spokesman could not foresee any way in which that could be achieved. The cost of energy to Irish Steel is a major factor at about £10 million per year. Despite what Deputy Reynolds said, the Government should consider very carefully the energy cost factor. It is of little advantage to have a resource off our coast if we do not put it to proper use.

Deputies

Hear, hear.

I do not know if Deputy Allen would agree with that.

This is an area in which significant savings could be made without any cost to the ESB. There would be a reduction in income but that would not mean necessarily that the cost would be passed to the consumer. I would regard it as legitimate to divert some of the massive profits of Bord Gáis, for instance, to supporting some of our other industries, because one safe company should not work in isolation from or to the detriment of other companies.

There is the question of the role of management in this whole affair. Deputy Wyse has suggested that the recent announcement was precipitated by the Minister's visit to Irish Steel. Nothing could be further from the truth. I would question the motives of the management who are now facing the unions and the staff in an impossible situation. Management are saying they must effect 100 redundancies but they are not saying whether these will involve manual workers, craftsmen, administrative staff or even management. They merely say that the figure of 100 is not negotiable. I would not agree with management in their perception that the primary means of reducing costs is to reduce the cost of labour. Savings can be made in other areas also. It is dishonest of management to suggest to the workforce that in respect of redundancy their only entitlement would be a statutory payment plus payment for one week when two members of the board as senior executives of two other firms who effected redundancies in the harbour area in recent times gave the statutory payment plus four or five weeks payment.

It is most unjust to adopt that attitude towards people who have served the company loyally, who have undertaken work that is dangerous and which in some cases caused lives to be lost. I would be prepared to suggest to the unions that they go ahead and negotiate, if that would save the company, but I would not endorse the cry for 100 redundancies if this were the beginning of the end, as happened in the case of Verolme Cork Dockyard. We would not agree to the redundancies if they were merely a step towards a further whittling down of staff numbers and towards eventual closure. As a Government backbencher and as a member of Labour I would not endorse that approach in any way. I see this situation as a new beginning and not the beginning of the end. If the workforce are to negotiate it must be with a view to keeping the company in operation. No Government backbencher and no Deputy from the Cork area should allow any move towards closure of the company.

There is a need for further Government investment in the company. I am pleased that the Minister for Labour told the management to negotiate with those people whose livelihoods are now at stake. That is crucial to the future of Irish Steel and to our whole industrial set up. I assure Deputy Fitzgerald that it is my intention to support——

Our motion.

I do not interrupt any speaker and consequently I do not expect any to interrupt me. I would support the motion if I thought the Opposition were trying genuinely to keep the company in operation rather than trying to exploit the unfortunate situation. I am sure that some people on the Opposition benches were very sincere in the views they expressed.

The Deputy said the same in relation to Verolme.

Deputy Fitzgerald must not try to malign me as he tried to malign the Minister for Health and Social Welfare.

We have too much respect for the Deputy to think of maligning him.

Let us cut out this Cork soppiness.

I am honoured by the presence of the boss this evening. As an active trade unionist I have been very concerned about the mounting pressure placed on the unions in recent times. They are being asked to play a kind of Russian roulette, to agree to 100 redundancies or else. It is deplorable that a State company should behave in that manner. If Irish Steel are to perform in a commercial market the Minister, the Minister for the Public Service or any future Minister in charge of these Departments must ensure that the company conform to commercial criteria. To this end they must not be subject to the heavy hand of the Department of the Public Service. They are negotiating in a vacuum with the unions but they cannot agree to anything without first consulting the Department of the Public Service.

Would the Deputy please conclude.

I sincerely ask the Minister to examine this method of operation.

This country has lost its shipping line, a dockyard and many large firms in the Cork area — Fords, Dunlops, Verolme and many others who did not get the same national headlines. It is not merely a matter of employment about which we are talking here. Just as it was two weeks ago in the argument about Irish Shipping Limited, we are talking about a matter of national strategy — that we have now no state shipping company and no steel works. Each time some such controversial matter arises it is not acceptable that people just reach for the file containing easy solutions. We have known for some time that perhaps there were many problems being encountered in the steel industry. That is known all over Europe. This House debated that matter on a number of occasions.

It is totally unfair of some Deputies opposite to endeavour to say that in some way my Cork colleagues are expedient or are jumping on the bandwagon of a political issue a fortnight after excellent results in a local election when such matters arises out of the blue and they endeavour to highlight them. I would remind those colleagues opposite that not too long ago — three years ago — when Fianna Fáil were in power the Coalition parties voted to nationalise an expensive towel industry which cost our taxpayers millions. At that time those Opposition Deputies — many of whom are here this evening — saw the Fieldcrest motion, costing millions of pounds, as being more important than saving a shipyard last week or a steel industry this week. I am afraid the logic escapes me.

It is interesting to hear our Labour colleagues support our motions, say how right we are and then vote the other way in the lobbies, remaining in Government, continuing the heartless, spineless policies that create unemployment. I did not hear mention from the Government side of the House this evening that there are 25,000 people unemployed in Cork whose hardship is worse than that being experienced anywhere else in the country, including Dublin, where unemployment is bad enough. People are now being conned into accepting redundancy, as has been suggested again this evening by the Minister. He says that he may go to the European Coal and Steel Fund in an endeavour to root out money to make it more pleasant for people to accept redundancy.

Redundancy does not constitute a solution to any employment problem. People ask how it can be rendered more acceptable to be kicked out of the door, with a cheque in one's pocket, which will be spent in a year once tax and PRSI contributions have been deducted. Every time the question of redundancy arises it should be remembered that these people will then be visited by social welfare officers asking them where they got the Bank of Ireland calendar on their wall and where they have the money invested. That is what is happening in Cork, and I am sorry that Deputies opposite did not say so this evening.

I said so.

If the Deputy did, I apologise; but most of his colleagues did not——

Half-heartedly.

——because that is what is happening in their city. They are coming to us, to our party leader and others to tell us how badly they are being treated. If anybody in this House allows another major national industry that happens to be based in Cork to go down the tube because of the want of a few millions of pounds of investment as against millions of pounds to be spent on unemployment assistance, unemployment benefit and redundancy payments, they should remember that that is not being fair to the electorate and to the people of Cork in particular. The continuous cry is of continued instability on the world steel market, high energy costs, an increase in the price of scrap metal, the level of company cost structures. Yet the only solution — and the manager of this company spells it out in his letter — is that in the middle of June 1985 there are to be another 100 people put on the dole.

We are merely asking the House to support our motion, to stand behind the large workforce in Cork. Our motion asks Dáil Éireann to call on the Government to take all the necessary action. We are not saying that they should pump in £100 million of taxpayers' money or that resources should be diverted from other needy areas. We are merely asking the House to take the necessary action to ensure the continuance of Irish Steel Holdings Limited. There is no wild irresponsible action being advocated in that, such as nationalisation of an expensive towel industry when nobody wants to buy expensive towels.

I am asking what action the party opposite have in mind.

When Deputies in this House this evening mentioned that we should look at ESB costs it should be remembered that those costs were clearly set out as one of the major factors in this situation. It is one factor crippling Irish Steel Holdings Limited. Nobody on this side of the House advocated such costs being taken from large industries and placed on domestic consumers. We all know the problem of electricity costs; they have been highlighted on many occasions in this House. Would it not be better to pay an ESB subsidy of £4 or £5 million to Irish Steel Holdings Limited than pay an equivalent amount to redundant workers and have 650 of them marching around Cork feeling rejected and neglected because this House is doing nothing for them? Each time this happens this Government have the attitude: "Well, another 100 workers here or there".

The port of Cork is being decimated. I know Deputy Allen mentioned that fact. The port of Dublin is closed because they could not obtain another 20 redundancies. They could achieve only 140 while the figure in some report, without any statistical foundation, stated that it should be 160. Therefore it is a case of closing Cork port, closing Dublin port, doing away with Irish Shipping Limited.

If Deputies will not vote in favour of our motion — although some of them speak in favour of our motions week after week — at least we would ask that they pressurise their Ministers rather than resort to redundancy. Indeed, the headlines in their own paper this morning was "A Better Deal at Irish Steel", the implication being that this modern steel company would now receive resources to help them ride out the recession and to get them back on to their feet. But, when one reads down the paragraphs, the fine print, one sees the better deal is to throw 100 more people onto the dole. That is what it was all about. There is nothing about saving those jobs or implementing modern technology. The Minister will break his neck to get a few more pounds for people so that they can pay more tax, be hassled by social welfare officers and be in receipt of social welfare assistance for the next 18 months, with no future.

It has now become apparent to anvbody what is happening in Irish industry, that Government policy is that the easiest way out is to blame the problem on the workers and, as somebody mentioned here this evening, on absenteeism. I understand that 40 per cent of the people who work in this steel works have to travel there by boat. I understand it is dirty, difficult, heavy work; and a figure of 8 per cent for absenteeism is not a bad one at all. We should remember that if that steel works was closed down we would then be importing £45 million more goods in the morning. There is logic — commercial, financial and social —in ensuring its continuance and preserving its social value for Cork.

Every argument dictates that Irish Steel Holdings Limited is one industry that should not be allowed go to the wall. When people from this side of the House visited Cork not so long ago, when our party leader led a deputation there, we were led to believe there were no major problems, that this modern industry was doing well in difficult times, that they were hard pressed but that money invested last year was being expended in the right direction. I know there was £89 million invested. Before the Taoiseach came into the House I was making the point that surely it is better to expend money keeping people in employment than putting them on the dole. Certainly that would be the viewpoint of Cork Deputies who came into this House time and time again to warn of the situation at Verolme, Irish Steel, Dunlops, Fords and others in an endeavour to save jobs and to have money invested for that purpose. Perhaps in the end it was commercially possible in other cases. But surely it is possible in the case of Irish Steel Holdings Limited, a State company of strategic importance? We say: Save all of those jobs. If 100 jobs cannot be maintained in one section of the industry, do what every other western country is doing — redeploy them in some side industry. That has worked successfully all over Europe. Do not take the easy option. Do not close the book and put those people out on the dole like the Government did in relation to the port and docks last week, and do not say "if 100 workers do not accept redundancy we will close down the whole lot". Because of 20 jobs in the Dublin port and docks 200 people are out. Nobody believes that the manning levels put forward were acceptable. This is a tactic where by the whole emphasis is to pressurise the unions because they are at their weakest and to say to them that they can take it or leave it or we will close up because there are not enough funds. The same line has been used in every company. Are the workers being asked to increase productivity or to work longer hours or to do anything reasonable? They are not. They are being asked to accept that they lose their jobs so that they can go back to their families having given their lives to the industry, having done all they can to sustain it, having agreed to flexibility, to modern technology, to switching hours, to reduced holidays and to pay freezes to no avail. They are being asked to agree to redundancy or else the company will close. That is an unacceptable policy and the sooner it is stopped the better for this country.

Amendment put.
The Dáil divided: Tá, 65; Níl, 59.

  • Allen, Bernard.
  • Barnes, Monica.
  • Barrett, Seán.
  • Barry, Myra.
  • Bell, Michael.
  • Bermingham, Joe.
  • Birmingham, George Martin.
  • Boland, John.
  • Bruton, John.
  • Bruton, Richard.
  • Carey, Donal.
  • Cluskey, Frank.
  • Conlon, John F.
  • Connaughton, Paul.
  • Cooney, Patrick Mark.
  • Farrelly, John V.
  • Fennell, Nuala.
  • FitzGerald, Garret.
  • Glenn, Alice.
  • Hegarty, Paddy.
  • Hussey, Gemma.
  • Kavanagh, Liam.
  • Keating, Michael.
  • Kelly, John.
  • Kenny, Enda.
  • L'Estrange, Gerry.
  • McGinley, Dinny.
  • McLoughlin, Frank.
  • Mitchell, Gay.
  • Michell, Jim.
  • Moynihan, Michael.
  • Naughten, Liam.
  • Nealon, Ted
  • Cosgrave, Liam T.
  • Cosgrave, Michael Joe.
  • Coveney, Hugh.
  • Creed, Donal.
  • Crowley, Frank.
  • D'Arcy, Michael.
  • Deasy, Martin Austin.
  • Desmond, Barry.
  • Desmond, Eileen.
  • Donnellan, John.
  • Dowling, Dick.
  • Doyle, Joe.
  • Dukes, Alan.
  • Durkan, Bernard J.
  • Enright, Thomas W.
  • Noonan, Michael.
  • (Limerick East)
  • O'Keeffe, Jim.
  • O'Leary, Michael.
  • O'Sullivan, Toddy.
  • O'Toole, Paddy.
  • Owen, Nora.
  • Pattison, Séamus.
  • Prendergast, Frank.
  • Quinn, Ruairí.
  • Ryan, John.
  • Shatter, Alan.
  • Sheehan, Patrick Joseph.
  • Skelly, Liam.
  • Spring, Dick.
  • Taylor-Quinn Madeline.
  • Timmins, Godfrey.
  • Yates, Ivan.

Tellers: Tá, Deputies Barrett

    Amendment declared carried.
    Nál

    Ahern, Bertie.Ahern, Michael.Andrews, David.Aylward, Liam.Barrett, Michael.Brady, Gerard.Brady, Vincent.Brennan, Paudge.Brennan, Séamus.Briscoe, Ben.Browne, John.Burke, Raphael P.Byrne, Hugh.Byrne, Seán.Calleary, Seán.Collins, Gerard.Conaghan, Hugh.Coughlan, Cathal Seán.Cowen, Brian.Daly, Brendan.De Rossa, Proinsias.Doherty, Seán.Fahey, Francis.Faulkner, Pádraig.Fitzgerald, Gene.Fitzgerald, Liam Joseph.Flynn, Pádraig.Foley, Denis.Gallagher, Denis.Gallagher, Pat Cope.

    Geoghegan-Quinn, MáireHarney, Mary.Haughey, Charles J.Hilliard, Colm.Hyland, Liam.Kirk, Séamus.Kitt, Michael.Lenihan, Brian.Leonard, Jimmy.Leonard, Tom.Leyden, Terry.Lyons, Denis.McCarthy, Seán.McCreevy, Charlie.Mac Giolla, Tomás.Molloy, Robert.Moynihan, Donal.Nolan, M.J.Noonan, Michael J.(Limerick West)O'Connell, John.O'Dea, William.O'Hanlon, Rory.O'Keeffe, Edmond.Ormonde, Donal.O'Rourke, Mary.Treacy, Noel.Walsh, Joe.Wilson, John P.Wyse, Pearse.

    Motion, as amended, agreed to.
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