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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 10 Jul 1985

Vol. 360 No. 6

Estimates, 1985. - Vote 42: Defence. (Revised Estimate)

I move:

That a sum not exceeding £240,633,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of December, 1985, for the salaries and expenses of the Office of the Minister for Defence, including certain services administered by that Office; for the pay and expenses of the Defence Forces; and for payment of certain grants-in-aid.

The Defence Estimates for the year ending 31 December 1985 is for a net sum of £240,633,000 of which £178,957,000 or 74 per cent provides for pay and allowances. This represents an increase of 7 per cent on the net provisional outturn for 1984. The gross provision in the 1985 Estimate is £253,433,000. It includes £74,476,000 for non-pay items. The provision of £12,800,000 for appropriationsin-aid shows an increase of £2,593,000 on the 1984 provisional outturn.

The Estimate is based on an average strength of 1,590 officers, 60 cadets and 12,050 other ranks — a total of 13,700 in the Permanent Defence Force.

Heavy demands continue to be made on the Defence Forces, particularly in regard to security matters. While the Garda Síochána have primary responsibility for internal security the involvement of the Defence Forces in this field derives from their role of rendering aid to the civil power. The duties undertaken by the Defence Forces in support of the Garda Síochána are necessary to help in upholding security and the maintenance of the rule of law. These impose a heavy burden on the officers and men of the Defence Forces as will be evidenced from the following summary of such duties carried out in 1984—

Over 12,000 military parties were supplied in Border areas for operational duties, about 13,500 checkpoints were set up and about 16,000 patrols were sent out into the road network along the Border and in other areas; escorts for explosives and blasting operations were provided on about 1,000 occasions; over 3,500 escorts for movements of cash were provided and about 100 requests for bomb disposal teams were handled.

The Defence Forces also provide guards for the movement of prisoners and assist in searches for arms, ammunition and explosives. In addition certain vital non-military installations are protected either by permanent military guards or by military patrols. These difficult and sensitive duties call for a high degree of efficiency and discretion and I am pleased to record that the officers and men acquitted themselves very well indeed in the performance of their duties. This reflects great credit on the standards of training and instruction maintained and I should like to express my appreciation to all concerned on a job well done.

I should like to refer also to the high level of efficiency shown by the Naval Service in carrying out their tasks and in particular the operation at sea which resulted in the capture of a large cargo of arms and ammunition consigned to a subversive organisation. This incident is a salutary reminder of what we as a community are up against in regard to subversive activity.

Deputies will realise full well the threat posed to democratic government throughout Ireland by subversive organisations. In recent times the right of our citizens to live in peace has been increasingly challenged by criminal elements. I saw a graphic example of that when I visited the town of Lifford yesterday when a large area of the town was devastated by an outrage committed by savage criminals. The Government are determined, however, to eliminate violence from whatever source it may come and to take every measure necessary to counteract the activities of these organisations.

It is almost inevitable, in the times in which we live, that members of the Defence Forces find themselves confronted in the course of their duties by dangerous situations. On occasions they are placed in situations where life is seriously at risk. The duties undertaken by the Defence Forces demand dedication and courage, qualities which personnel are required to display on a daily basis. I think it is appropriate here to pay tribute to the officers and men of the Defence Forces and to acknowledge the contribution they make, in co-operation with the Garda Síochána, in providing security for the community and in ensuring the preservation of law and order.

Deputies will be aware of developments in South Lebanon in recent times and of the significant contribution to the cause of peace which the Defence Forces continue to make through participation in the United Nations peace-keeping force in that country. At the present time an Irish contingent of about 735 all ranks is serving with the United Nations Interim Forces in Lebanon — UNIFIL. This force is commanded by Lieutenant-General William Callaghan, whose appointment as Force Commander is a tribute to Ireland's long commitment and dedication to the cause of international peace-keeping.

This record of peace-keeping began in 1958 when Irish officers first served as observers in Lebanon. Since that time officers and men of the Defence Forces have contributed actively and continuously to United Nations peace-keeping missions in many parts of the world. In addition to participation in UNIFIL, an Irish contingent of eight personnel is currently serving with the United Nations Force in Cyprus — UNFICYP — and 21 Irish officers are serving with the United Nations Truce Supervision Organisation — UNTSO — in the Middle East. The Government have been following with concern the recent events in South Lebanon in connection with the withdrawal of Israeli defence forces from that country. That withdrawal was characterised by increasing attacks on the Israeli defence forces by Shi'ite resistance groups and by harsh Israeli countermeasures.

The new situation which has developed in southern Lebanon has made the position of contingents serving with UNIFIL increasingly difficult. Troops of the Irish contingent have had to contend with a number of serious confrontations arising mainly from the activities of Israeli-backed militia in the area and occasionally Israeli defence forces themselves. The incidents in question were the subject of strenuous protests by us through diplomatic channels to the Israeli authorities and were also taken up with the Israeli authorities through the United Nations.

As Minister for Defence, I am particularly concerned regarding the welfare and safety of our troops in Lebanon and these matters are kept under constant review. In this regard troops selected for overseas service undergo a rigorous programme of training designed to help them carry out their peacekeeping mission and to provide for their protection. I am satisfied that their training, and the weapons and equipment which they are issued, are adequate to ensure the maximum safety of our personnel consistent with the discharge of their duties. I should also mention that a proportion of personnel serving with each contingent have completed previous tours of peacekeeping duty overseas and have acquired experience and expertise in coping with the many difficult situations which arise on such missions.

This year marks the 25th anniversary of the first involvement of units of the Defence Forces with the United Nations peace-keeping operations. As a nation we can take justifiable pride in the contribution our personnel have made to restoring and preserving peace in many troubled areas in that quarter of a century.

From the beginning the role of UNIFIL has not been an easy one. While the objectives of the original UNIFIL mandate have not been totally achieved, nevertheless UNIFIL has played a valuable and vital role in bringing peace to its area of operations and in protecting the local population. In the course of a visit to UNIFIL in October last I had the opportunity to see at first hand the prosperity and stability which had returned to the area and which, it is true to say, can be largely attributed to the UN presence. More recently in connection with the Israeli withdrawal, UNIFIL has provided security for the civilian population and has been effective in monitoring and restraining the activities of local militia and of the Israeli Defence Forces.

There is no easy solution to the difficulties which face UNIFIL in southern Lebanon and troop-contributing countries must be careful not to take any steps, such as a premature withdrawal of personnel, which would be harmful to the interests of the people of Lebanon or of the United Nations itself. In consultation with troop-contributing countries and the United Nations we are continuing to monitor closely the situation in Lebanon with a view to ensuring the security and standing of UNIFIL, and to enabling the Force to fulfil its role effectively. Despite the difficulties, we can be assured that UNIFIL will continue to carry out its functions to the utmost of its abilities in this very important United Nations mission.

I would like to take this opportunity to commend the Force commander and the personnel of the Irish contingent for their steadfastness and bearing in an extremely difficult peace-keeping operation.

As regards pay and conditions of members of the Defence Forces, these continue to be maintained at a high standard. The Government are concerned to ensure that the remuneration of the Defence Forces keeps step with that of other sectors of the public service. To this end the pay of all ranks has attracted the increase provided for in the recent revision of pay of certain civil servants which is payable in two phases — 3 per cent with effect from 1 January 1985 and 3 per cent with effect from 1 July 1985. The cost of pay increases will be provided for in the Vote for Increases in Remuneration and Pensions as required. As I indicated in my speech on the Estimate for Defence last year, the pay of all personnel from private 2 star up to and including commandant has received the benefit of a 6 per cent arbitration award to certain grades in the Civil Service, the first phase of which — in the region of 2 per cent — has been paid with effect from 1 October 1983. The second phase of this arbitration award, about 2.5 per cent, was paid with effect from 1 December 1984 and the remaining balance of this award is due to be paid on 1 September 1985.

The current rate of pay of a recruit is almost £121 a week, rising after about 14 weeks basic training to just under £140. On advancement to private 3 star which usually takes place during the first year of service, gross pay rises to over £145, while after three years service, the gross pay of a private is over £158. I am sure the House will agree that these rates of pay are reasonable.

In addition, appropriate allowances are payable to officers and men who perform duties of a security nature. The rates of these allowances are kept constantly under review to ensure that personnel are adequately compensated for the duties which they are required to undertake. The rates of allowance for service in the Border area currently amount to £18.55 per week for officers and £16.10 per week for men. Personnel outside the Border area involved in rendering aid to the civil power such as guard duties on vital installations, cash escorts and prisoner escorts, are now paid a daily allowance of £7.90 for any such duties undertaken on weekdays and at the rate of £15.80 for duties undertaken on a Sunday or Army holiday.

While general recruitment to the Permanent Defence Force is in abeyance at the moment, I am pleased to say that, in addition to the usual recruitment of cadets and apprentices, 679 recruits were enlisted during 1984, — 581 for general service to fill vacancies in highly operational units and 98 for the Naval Service. A further 50 recruits were enlisted for the Naval Service during January 1985. During the present period of restricted recruitment the names of individuals who apply to join the Permanent Defence Force are placed on waiting lists in the various commands. As vacancies are being filled applicants will be called for interview from the waiting lists which are compiled in date order of application for enlistment.

Competitions for the award of cadetships in the Army and Air Corps were held in 1984 and 32 cadetships were awarded. A competition was advertised in May 1985 for further cadetships in the Army and Air Corps. Twenty-four cadetships in the Army and ten in the Air Corps will be awarded and the cadets will commence training in November of this year.

There used to be a belief, and it may still be held residually, that canvassing could assist an applicant in obtaining a cadetship. I am satisfied that such belief was totally without foundation but in order to try to eliminate it completely, I introduced last year a rule against canvassing under penalty of disqualification. This rule has been imposed again this year and I would like to draw it to the attention of the House in the confident expectation that Members, being aware of it, will ensure that they will not have the embarrassment of disqualifying any young man from a military career.

During 1984 apprenticeships in the Army and Air Corps totalling 107 were awarded. Further competitions for the award of apprenticeships in both the Army (up to 60) and Air Corps (up to 20) were advertised in February last. The apprentices will commence training in August of this year.

Arrangements to ensure that personnel of the Defence Forces can avail of the best possible educational and training facilities continued during the past year. A total of 133 officers are undergoing various full-time courses at third-level educational institutions at present. The practice of assigning officers to such courses is being continued in 1985 to meet the requirements of the Defence Forces.

Under the scheme, introduced some years ago, to train executive branch cadets of the Naval Service in Ireland, eight cadets trained under this scheme have been commissioned and a further four cadets are undergoing training at present. Also, 15 officers have been commissioned to date under the scheme introduced for the purpose of providing the Naval Service with qualified marine engineer officers.

Members of the Permanent Defence Force who, in their own time, attend approved second level and third level courses of education may be refunded the tuition and examination fees involved.

The scheme whereby personnel are registered with AnCO as apprentices in various trades such as motor mechanic, sheet metal worker and bricklayer, continues to operate very satisfactorily. These personnel attend either full time off-the-job training courses, day-release courses or block-release courses. Selected personnel are also assigned to specialised third level courses in engineering, electronics and catering.

In order that the level of knowledge and expertise may be kept in line with modern developments elsewhere, and to provide for the efficient maintenance and operation of the many sophisticated equipments in use in the Defence Forces, it is intended that a number of personnel attend courses in foreign military and civilian establishments during 1985.

As regards the Reserve (First Line), the FCA and Slua Muirí, I regret that it has again been found necessary to reduce annual training by seven days. The reduction continues to be necessary as part of the Government's programme for achieving reductions in the level of public expenditure. The saving, lest anyone be in doubt, is substantial, being almost £2 million. Notwithstanding the reduced period, however, I have again decided that the gratuity payable to qualified members of the Reserve who complete the maximum permissible period in 1985 will be at the full rates and not at the reduced rates which would normally apply in respect of attendance at training for the shorter period.

The non-pay provisions for this year total almost £74.5 million gross and are required to maintain the capabilities of the Defence Forces and to meet commitments already entered into.

Provision is made for final payments for three of the five twin-engined Dauphin helicopters on order and due for delivery this year. Two of the helicopters are for use in conjunction with the new patrol vessel — LE Eithne— which was delivered to the Naval Service late last year. The other helicopter is the first of three which will enable more effective search-and-rescue, air ambulance and transport services to be provided. The additional two helicopters are due for delivery in 1986. These Dauphin helicopters are larger and more advanced than the existing Alouettes and will be capable of flying at night and in reduced visibility. An extensive training programme associated with the introduction of these aircraft has already commenced. The incorporation of advanced avionics in these aircraft to permit of all-weather operations has meant that we have had to wait longer to bring them into service than would otherwise have been the case, but I am glad to say that the state of the art equipment specified by us will give them a navigational capability essential for safe operations in the hostile conditions to be encountered off our south and west coasts.

A new radar installation was recently put into commission at Casement Aerodrome. This provides air traffic control surveillance of the surrounding air space and assists landings in conditions of reduced visibility.

A sum of £8.35 million is provided in subhead S of the Estimates for building and engineering works as compared with an outturn last year of £6.1 million. This is an increase of 37 per cent and will give added impetus to the ongoing efforts to improve accommodation and develop necessary facilities for the Defence Forces. The provision includes a sum of £5 million for a range of new buildings and a number of major renovations.

The main features of the programme for the improvement of accommodation and facilities include the provision of new billets and the refurbishment of older ones; the building of new catering complexes in some locations and the modernisation of existing facilities in others; the development of recreational areas and the construction of new administrative and operational accommodation where necessary, as well as the renovation of existing accommodation of this nature.

In recent years new billets with central heating and modern amenities have been built at Finner Camp, Dundalk Barracks and Gormanston Camp and at other locations. Plans for new officers quarters at Finner Camp are well advanced. Renovation of older billets has continued at many locations including Collins Barracks, Dublin, where a new central heating system is now in operation. Arrangements are being made for the installation of central heating in Collins Barracks, Cork.

Work is proceeding on the building of new single officers' quarters at Cathal Brugha Barracks, Dublin, and on the renovation of the officers' mess there. At Gormanston Camp a newly constructed brigade headquarters and officers' mess are nearing completion.

New catering and dining facilities have been provided in recent years at a number of barracks. Arrangements are being made for the provision of similar facilities at other locations, namely, Casement Aerodrome, Ballincollig, Gormanston, Griffith Barracks, Dublin, Fermoy, Haulbowline and Kilkenny. It is hoped to have work commenced soon on the modernisation of the catering arrangements at Ballincollig Barracks, County Cork. New catering facilities are being planned for Casement Aerodrome.

Recreational facilities are also being provided, including TV and reading rooms in Casement Aerodrome and Ballincollig Barracks. A new gymnasium is being planned for Collins Barracks, Cork, and for Custume Barracks, Athlone.

Planning for the proposed new military barracks at Cavan is progressing and it is hoped to be in a position to commence work on the project early in 1986.

Other new works under construction or being planned include the second stage of the rebuilding of Ceannt Barracks, Curragh Camp, the renovation of aircraft hangars at Casement Aerodrome, the provision of a new runway at Gormanston Camp and the construction of new transport facilities at Clancy Barracks, Dublin, and Collins Barracks, Cork. Refuelling facilities for helicopters have been installed at several military posts to improve the operational scope of the helicopters. A new anti-tank range is almost completed in the Glen of Imaal.

I am very pleased indeed that this comprehensive programme of building and renovation is proceeding at installations right throughout the country.

I referred at some length last year to the question of providing married quarters for soldiers. As I indicated then, the provision of family housing is primarily a matter for the local authorities but it has been the policy to augment the measures taken by local authorities in instances where soldiers' housing needs are exceptional. Repairs and renovations to existing married quarters continue to receive attention. Last year agreement was reached with Dublin Corporation in regard to the transfer of the site of the old married quarters at Arbour Hill to the corporation for housing purposes. Arrangements have since been made with Kilkenny Corporation for the transfer of the site of the old married quarters at Stephen's Barracks, Kilkenny, to that corporation for similar purposes.

The problem of overholding of married quarters is still with us and is one which does not lend itself to any simple solution. I am, however, having the problem examined with a view to mitigating its effects as far as possible.

Turning to equestrian events, I am glad to report that 1984 has been the most successful year on record for the Army Equitation School. Army riders achieved a total of 140 prizes in competitions both at home and abroad, which yielded prize money in excess of £62,000. The outstanding achievement of the year was that of Captain John Ledingham on Gabhran winning the Hickstead Derby in August which carried the richest showjumping prize in Europe last year. I am sure that riders and horses from the school will continue to enhance their reputation throughout the equestrian world. Indeed, this year already our riders at shows both at home and abroad have notched up a series of firsts against leading civilian competition.

Asgard II completed her full programme of 26 cruises planned for 1984 covering a total distance of nearly 10,000 miles. Almost 600 people, mainly young boys and girls, participated in the cruises, many of them as members of groups. There was a significant increase during the year in the number of groups of students from vocational and community schools who took part in cruises. There was also an increase in the numbers of young people from the inner city areas of Dublin, Cork and Limerick who availed of the cruises. These are trends which Coiste An Asgard are most anxious to encourage.

Among the highlights of the 1984 season was the visit of Asgard II to St. Malo in Brittany in April for a gathering of tall ships in celebration of the 450th anniversary of the voyage of Jacques Cartier from St. Malo to Canada, where he carried out the first exploration of the St. Lawrence. Another notable occasion was the visit of Asgard II to Scheveningen in Holland for the tenth birthday celebrations of her sister sail training vessel Eendracht. Other European tall ships also participated in those celebrations and, in the sporting events that were held between the crews, a number of trophies were won by the young people on Asgard II.

From 1980 to 1984 Irish Shipping Ltd. handled a number of matters in relation to the operation of Asgard II on behalf of Coiste An Asgard and I would like to place on record my gratitude to the personnel of Irish Shipping for their assistance. The liquidation of the company, however, made it necessary to make other arrangements. The work is now being carried out directly by Coiste An Asgard which is to be given corporate status and has the aid of a full time secretary from my Department. Advice and assistance on technical matters are being provided by the Naval Service.

A full programme of cruises on Asgard II is being carried out again this year. The highlight of the season has been the visit to the United States. The visit was undertaken in response to an invitation received from the St. Brendan Cup Committee in America. This committee was organised a few years ago to commemorate the sixth century voyage of Saint Brendan from Ireland to America, to strengthen the bonds of friendship between America and Ireland and to foster greater appreciation of Celtic culture in the United States. Among other things the committee are planning a biennial yachting event between Ireland and America commencing in 1987.

After a voyage by way of Spain, Madeira and Bermuda, during which some extremely rough weather was encountered, Asgard II arrived in the United States in May. The St. Brendan Cup Committee in America organised a programme that took the vessel to a number of American cities. Some of these cities were far from the sea but were reached by a fine system of inland waterways. The visit was very successful and I am sure that the young people who participated will benefit greatly from their experience.

As regards Civil Defence the specific provision for this year is £1.72 million. It represents an increase of about 15 per cent on the 1984 provision and is indicative of the Government's belief in the value of this organisation.

The provision provides for the continuing recruitment, training and equipping of the local authority based Civil Defence services at their present level and the major items include the balance due in respect of the new stock of radiation dose-rate meters, manufactured at Shannon, and a further phase in the introduction of the new style Civil Defence uniform which was commenced last year. As regards equipment, earlier this year there was a further allocation of equipment to local authorities for Civil Defence use — a fire appliance, six ambulances, ten lighting and rescue sets and five landrovers which were an addition to the existing range of equipment. I consider that the present equipment position is reasonably satisfactory — particularly so in current economic circumstances — and, apart from the major items which I have mentioned, the balance of the equipment provision is intended to initiate purchase action to replace unserviceable vehicles.

Civil Defence is a valuable additional resource available to each local authority to assist the community in peacetime. The extent to which the organisation is developed and used in that capacity is very much a matter for local initiative but such use is encouraged by my Department on the grounds that it contributes to the effectiveness of the organisation in relation to its wartime role. The guidelines on emergency planning issued relatively recently to local authorities by the Department of the Environment and the other promotional action by that Department, directed towards greater readiness to respond to any form of peacetime emergency, should help to foster a climate in which local authorities can consider afresh what further opportunities there are to make better use of Civil Defence and the associated voluntary aid societies. I can assure them of the co-operation of my Department in this regard.

On the wartime role of Civil Defence it is regrettable that there is a good deal of comment which is anything but constructive and which must be very discouraging to those who put in so much effort as members of Civil Defence. It is easy to be critical and the consequences can be damaging. Constructive criticism calls for a much greater effort and a prerequisite is a well-informed and positive attitude. Closer contact between the critics of the concept of Civil Defence and the Civil Defence organisation and more face to face dialogue rather than exchanges through the media would, I believe, lead to a much better understanding of the Civil Defence position and would help to foster those measures which are best for our people against the continuing risk of any war situation which might affect this country. Both centrally and locally Civil Defence has shown itself quite prepared to participate in any such dialogue.

On behalf of the Government, I acknowledge the debt we owe to the members of the Civil Defence organisation who are giving such good example at a time when many disruptive elements prevail and I include in the expression of appreciation the Irish Red Cross Society, the Order of Malta and the St. John Ambulance Brigade for their continuing co-operation with Civil Defence.

I turn now to the Army Pensions Estimate for the year ending 31 December 1985, which is for a net sum of £35,972,000. The net provisional outturn for the year ended 31 December 1984 was £35,745,000. The 1985 Estimate represents an increase of £227,000, less than one per cent, on the 1984 provisional outturn.

Pensions and allowances provided for under this Estimate have attracted the increase by reference to the recent revision of pay of certain Civil Service grades which was payable in two phases — 3 per cent from 1 January 1985 and a further 3 per cent from 1 July 1985. Provision for the increase will be made in the Vote for Increases in Remuneration and Pensions as required.

The main increases in the Estimate in terms of overall cost are: £539,000 in subhead E.1 — Defence Forces (Pensions) Schemes and £258,000 in subhead K — grants in respect of the provision of free travel, electricity, bottled gas, television licences and telephone rental for veterans of the War of Independence.

A token sum of £1,000 is provided in subhead J for compensation payable by way of lump sum to or in respect of members of the Defence Forces who served with the United Nations Force and who were killed or wounded or who died or were disabled as a result of disease contracted during such service. It is customary to make provision for a token sum only as it is not possible to estimate the demand on the subhead. Amounts paid are recoverable from the United Nations.

As regards military service pensions, subhead D, and special allowances, subhead G, the numbers involved continue to decrease. There are now fewer than 1,300 military service pensioners and about 2,800 special allowance holders on pay. There is, however, an increase in the number of ex-members of the Defence Forces on retired pay and on pension for whom provision is made under subhead E.1. The total number of pensioners and allowance holders at present on pay is approximately 19,000.

I commend both Estimates to the favourable consideration of the House. All of us can be proud of the men and women of the Defence Forces and happy in the knowledge that their traditional loyalty to their country and to each other is as strong as ever. It is a great consolation for citizens to know that in an emergency they have the protection and support of a totally disciplined body motivated by a high morale which ensures that duty and not self-interest comes first and which conducts its operation with a professionalism and expertise second to none. I look forward to the debate and I will be happy to supply any further information that Deputies may request in the course of it.

I am delighted to have an opportunity to reply to the Minister's speech on the Defence Estimate and I am happy to note that there has been an increase of 7 per cent on last year's outturn. I should like to pay tribute to members of all sections of the Defence Forces. In the short time that I have been Opposition spokesman on Defence I have observed their diligence, dedication and exemplary discipline in spite of having many difficult and various services and tasks to perform on behalf of the nation. The Army have been available to aid the civil power in a big way in the last two decades. Since 1970 the Army have been involved in Border security at a major cost to the State.

We must be positive in ensuring the protection of the people who live in this part of the island, especially those who live close to the Border. There are no easy solutions to the problem and, ultimately, the only way forward is through a political solution. The fact that our Army have to be involved on so many occasions, as outlined in the Minister's speech, at great cost to the Exchequer shows the amount of pressure on the Exchequer due to the difficulties that prevail at regular intervals in that area.

The Army have provided security at various installations and in the transport of industrial explosives. They have been involved in that work with the Garda Síochána. Since 1978 there has been a need for an Army-Garda cash escort for the protection of large cash movements throughout the State. We are aware of the high cost and the pressure this puts on the Defence Forces and the amount of time they are absent from their normal training and other duties. The Army have been involved in supporting the Garda Síochána in guarding our prisons and vital installations which need military security at various times.

I want in particular to pay tribute to both the Naval Service and the Air Corps for the great work they have continued to do in the service of this country over the years, especially in fishery protection and rescue operations. This has not been fully or properly acknowledged or understood by many people, especially the media commentators. Recently we had the sad and harrowing Air India disaster off the south-west coast. One of our naval vessels, the LE Aoife, was quickly on the spot and with the LE Aisling and the new LE Eithne, in co-operation with the Air Corps, made a major contribution to the rescue operations. The LE Aoife was responsible for locating the general area of the Air India plane's “black box” which is still being sought for examination. We also had the services of the Royal Air Force which is normal in international rescue operations.

As there were four Governments involved technically with this terrible tragedy, we had the services of other international agencies. The Irish Government were involved because the accident happened off our shores and the crash control centre was in Cork. Air India were involved as flight operators, thus involving the Indian Government. The plane was leased from the United States, so the United States Government were involved. The plane departed from a Canadian airport, so the Canadian Government were involved. Because of all this governmental involvement the resuce operations had the assistance of the United States Air Force and a sophisticated Canadian rescue boat.

In all the news reports on RTE radio and television scant regard was had for the Irish Naval and Air Corps services despite the fact that they were first on the scene, within a very short period of the distress call being put out by Shannon. In all reports RTE consistently informed everybody that the Royal Air Force and the Americans were involved in the rescue and always finished up saying "and the Irish Naval Service and Air Corps are also helping". The LE Aisling was in control of the area and co-ordinating the search, but this was not acknowledged. I hope the contribution our Defence Forces have been and will be making will not get the same type of downgraded coverage in the future as they got on this occasion. I especially appeal to RTE to ensure that the contributions of all Irish agencies and personnel, irrespective of the sector of the State service, are given rightful coverage in the future.

The Naval Service have made a major contribution in protecting our fishing resources. I want to pay particular tribute to them for that. They now have to patrol an area within the Irish box of 132,000 square miles. It is vital now, with the advent of Spain and Portugal as members of the European Community, that the Irish Naval Service would have the resources and the equipment necessary to protect this vital national interest. We hope no effort will be spared in ensuring the provision of the resources necessary to combat the second arrival of the Spanish Armada around our coasts.

The LE Eithne, our newest naval vessel, went into service recently. It is 1,800 tonnes and has special radar and helicopter facilities, including a computer controlled Bofors gun. It made its first arrest recently when a Spanish fishing vessel was in Irish waters. This outstanding vessel of Irish design and make, a vessel of which the country can be very proud, will make a major contribution in supplementing and complementing the other important vessels the Naval Service have in fishery protection over the years.

However, I am very disappointed that the Naval Service Training Headquarters have been moved from Spike Island to Ballincolling Barracks, Cork. I regard this as a serious and rash decision. It is vitally important that al members of the Naval Service, whether recruits or permanent members, would always operate in a maritime atmosphere. They now have to train inland. I hope if at all possible that this training could be transferred to another maritime area so that the proper atmosphere is provided. I ask the Minister to investigate this and see what he can do to rectify the situation.

The importance of the Air Corps to this country since 1922 is immeasurable. They have been involved in major rescues and surveillance operations at vital times. They play a major part when international leaders visit Ireland and their contribution to the visit of President Reagan and Pope John Paul II received international recognition. They play a major role in both surveillance and rescue operations.

I welcome the fact that five Dauphin helicopters will be provided this year and in particular two marine helicopters which will work in close co-operation with the new naval vessel, the LE Eithne.

However, I regret that the Minister did not ensure that at least one Puma helicopter was purchased, because the Puma is much stronger and has a greater capacity than the Dauphin. We had a Puma in the early eighties leased from the French. This was a vital asset to the country on many occasions, expecially during the snows of 1981. A Puma would lessen the country's total dependence at times on the Royal Air Force in rescue operations. This was clearly illustrated on 18 February last when an accident happened off the coast of Galway on board a fishing vessel killing one man and seriously injuring another. It took over three hours before a proper rescue helicopter arrived from South Wales because we had no helicopter of sufficient capacity or capability to perform the necessary rescue operation. I appeal to the Minister to consider purchasing a Puma helicopter in the future in the interests of the nation to ensure that adequate safety and rescue facilities are available from the State to all citizens whether they be on land or sea, and to people from any part of the world operating on boats or ships or fishing alongside our coasts.

I wish to be associated with the Minister's tribute to the equestrian section of the Army in which I know he has a particular interest. I congratulate Captain Ledingham and his colleagues on their great successes over the past year. The Equestrian College has been a major shopwindow for this country and has brought international acclaim and many honours to it. I should like to compliment and congratulate everybody involved in that college. We look forward to many more successes for them in this year and the years ahead.

I should also like to pay tribute to the captain and crew of Asgard II on the successful completion of their many voyages during the past year. I know that at times they encountered much turbulent weather. I am delighted that everybody involved had successful voyages and that the young people on board enjoyed their major experiences. This is an important contribution by the Defence Forces to giving young people here an opportunity of sailing the seas and travelling the world. I commend this very important work.

The cost of Army pensions this year is close to £36 million. I would ask the Minister to investigate the possibility of paying pensions in a way which would enable the normal standard deductions which are made for regular members of the Defence Forces during their period there for saving and investments to be continued through the period during which they received pensions until these investments mature. It would be a great help to retired members of the Defence Forces.

I am delighted to note in the Minister's speech the amount of investment made for buildings and improvements. In particular, I am glad to see that in early 1986 he proposes to go ahead with the new barracks in Cavan, as this is urgently needed. I would also ask him to consider a similar building programme for the coming year and to continue to escalate it. It is vitally important that proper housing be made available, and proper married quarters in particular, for members of the Defence Forces. I accept that Army personnel should get the same consideration as civilians for all local authority housing, but this can often create surplus demand for this housing. In particular, I would ask the Minister to outline in detail the exact position regarding the relocation of four Army personnel at present in four houses earmarked for demolition at the Holiday Square end of Arbour Hill. I would be grateful if he could tell us when these people would be relocated and what the exact position is.

The structure of payments that Army personnel receive at times may militate against their qualifying for maximum loans from local authorities, housing finance agencies, banks or other lending institutions, as often the permanent allowances which they receive are not taken into account by these agencies and institutions. I would be grateful if the Minister could investigate the situation and see if full acknowledgement would be given to Army personnel when they make applications for loans, in order to ensure that they can qualify for these loans and purchase their own houses. This would ease the pressure on Army housing and ensure that Army people were at no disadvantage when they applied for these loans.

In particular, I would ask the Minister to discuss with his Cabinet colleague, the Minister for the Environment, the possibility of allocating the new local authority special grant of £5,000 for Army personnel who wish to purchase their own houses. The fact that they live in State Exchequer-paid houses should not militate against them in qualifying for this special grant. Really, there is no difference between a person living in a local authority house paid for by State funds through the Department of the Environment and a person living in an Army house which is paid for by State funds made through the Department of Defence. It would be in the interests of Army personnel and the Exchequer to ease the pressure on housing if this grant could be made available to members of the Defence Forces.

It is now almost 30 years since we first became full members of the United Nations. During that period of time we have sought to ensure in every possible way that the purposes and principles of the United Nations Charter are fully respected. Ireland's approach over these years has been clear and consistent. We want to see full respect for the independence and territorial integrity of all States throughout the world. We want to ensure that the right of all peoples to determine their own future free from outside interference would be maintained at all times. We want to promote, in every way possible open to this country, a greater measure of justice and order in international affairs and relationships.

I want to pay particular tribute to the many gallant Irishmen and women, as members of the Irish Army and Irish Defence Forces, who have played such an important part in international peace-keeping affairs throughout the world over the past 30 years. They have operated under the most difficult conditions and have proved conclusively in several locations worldwide that Ireland is one of the few nations with the particular mettle and abilities that peace-keeping demands, irrespective of the situation or conditions in which our Army find themselves. This has been internationally acknowledged. However, I regret that on the recent 25th anniversary of our first overseas mission held on 19 June many members of the Defence Forces who served over these years, many of them now retired, were not invited to that commemoration. I would request the Minister, in any future commemoration like this to ensure, if at all possible, that all those who served will be invited.

At present we have a battalion serving with the United Nations International Forces in the Lebanon. Their mandate is to supervise the withdrawal of Israeli forces, bring peace and stability to the area and supervise the transfer back to the authority of the people in the Lebanon. During the past month and particularly over the past year our forces have come under fire from some illegal groups. We are fortunate that there have been no casualties on either side. The group's first commitment is to bring peace and stability to the area in which they operate under their mandate. The people of the Lebanon have a great regard for the Irish troops. They depend on them to prevent Israeli atrocities and to highlight the situation in which our troops find themselves. The removal of the Irish battalion would be a disastrous blow to the morale of the United Nations Forces who are under the control of our own Lieutenant-General William Callaghan who is the overall UNIFIL Commander. I, too, want to pay tribute to Lieutenant-General Callaghan and all the members of his battalion and to assure them that they have our full support in endeavouring to bring peace and stability to a troubled land.

I welcome the statement by the Minister that the Government have consistently exerted severe pressure, through diplomatic channels, on the Israelis to ensure that our Army and Defence Forces would not be victims of any intimidation or incidents similar to those which happened over the past year on no fewer than 40 occasions. I regret, however, that when the President of Israel, Chaim Hertzog, came here some weeks ago sufficient pressure was not exerted on him regarding these many incidents. As I understand, only one Minister, the Minister for Foreign Affairs, spoke to the President of Israel on that occasion. I would ask the Minister to ensure that if any opportunity like this occurs, the position of Ireland and the Irish Defence Forces will be outlined in the strongest possible manner to any international leaders coming to our country.

The Army's contribution to internal security is outstanding. They carry out many extra duties alongside the Garda Síochána in many difficult situations. I recognise the many long hours of duty worked by members of our Defence Forces and how much of this time is spent on protecting our people in certain difficult situations and in providing emergency services. Although our Defence Forces work alongside the civil authority, on many occasions they do not get the same recognition or the same remuneration for the extra hours they work in the service of our people. I wish to acknowledge their contribution and to pay tribute to them for their commitment and dedication to duty, irrespective of the locations or the long unsocial hours they have to work.

The total establishment figure for all sections of the Army is in excess of 18,000 personnel. The present strength of our Defence forces is 13,668 persons. Therefore, we are under-strength by about 4,000 personnel. The Army have played a major role in the development of our country and of our people in recent years, particularly those who have been fortunate enough to join the Army and to participate in the many disciplines attached to it. We have many outstanding young people who would make a major contribution to our Army and to the Defence Forces if they were given an opportunity, and towards this end many unemployed people should be given an opportunity to join the Army, whether for a long or short period. Through the training and discipline that is so evident in the Army they could make a major contribution in the years ahead, especially in national security and in leadership in our community.

We hope that the major efforts made in the past will be made again in the coming years to ensure that Army strength is increased sufficiently and that there is proper and full training in all its aspects of our officers. It is especially commendable to see women entering the forces and playing their part in the development of the forces. However, I regret that very few women have been recruited in the past few years and I ask the Minister to reconsider the situation.

At the moment we have nearly 250,000 people unemployed and many of these people are disillusioned and disorientated. They are people of high educational standards, with keen intellects, and they have great ideals. On their behalf and in the interests of the country I appeal to the Minister to expand recruitment to the Army as soon as possible. I am sure he can confirm that in the past year many voluntary organisations, youth organisations and responsible employer bodies have made representations to his Department and to the Army to increase Army recruitment. I appeal to him to provide the funds and at least to increase recruitment in the next year by approximately 2,000 members if this is at all possible.

I also appeal to the Minister to consider the setting up of a special Army corps. This would give an opportunity for young people for short periods — perhaps one or two years — to make a contribution to Army life and to partake in military training and discipline. There are many young people who want to make this contribution and the setting up of such an Army corps would provide an opportunity for them. It would be in the best interests of the nation at this time.

It is vital in modern times that the best people in our community be given an opportunity of joining the Defence Forces. All of us have a sense of national pride. All of us would like to make a contribution in a special way to the development of our country. There are many idealistic young men and women who are anxious to join the Defence Forces and to make their contribution but they have not been given the opportunity at this time. One of the great decisions made by the Army some years ago was to give an opportunity to young officers to attend educational courses in University College, Galway, in Kevin Street College of Technology and in the NIHE. I appeal to the Minister to ensure that proper training in all its aspects is given to all officers and that the opportunity in these colleges and in the third level institutions will be provided in the years ahead.

The FCA have given a major opportunity to many young people to become involved in our Defence Forces. They are required as a back-up to the Permanent Defence Forces and their great ability is the detailed knowledge they have of their own localities. National defence means the employment of the Permanent Defence Force and it also means general protection for the population as a whole. This was never more relevant than at present. The FCA and the Civil Defence have a major role to play in this area. In view of the many young people who are not gainfully employed, the FCA should be expanded to harness their abilities and to give them an opportunity of showing their commitment to our country. At present the FCA operate only for a one-week training period in summer. I appeal to the Minister to revert to having training courses of two or three weeks as in the past. During the long summer months many young people have plenty of time on their hands and I ask the Minister to consider a training schedule lasting for one month for the FCA.

I wish to acknowledge the great contribution of the Civil Defence organisation during the years and particularly since the establishment of the Civil Defence School in the Phoenix Park in 1951. In this country Civil Defence is established as a part of the national defence structure, principally to provide for the protection of the civil population at all times and to assist in war time and in disasters and emergencies. It is vital in modern times, where there has been such major technological advances in the level of arms available to all nations, that every assistance be given to the Civil Defence organisation to ensure that our citizens will be able at least to make the minimum arrangements necessary in the event of a national or international disaster, which we hope and pray will never occur. As the spokesman with responsibility for Civil Defence, I appeal to the Minister of State to ensure that those in the local authorities who are charged with the responsibility of promoting Civil Defence will be encouraged at all times to do so. It is vital that sufficient co-operation be forthcoming between these local authority officers and the various Army officers who are involved in promoting Civil Defence in the commands throughout the country.

I welcome the fact that there has been an increase of 7 per cent in the Estimate for the Department of Defence as against the outturn for last year. I ask the Minister to expand in some detail on subhead A.2 which deals with consultancy services costing £10,000 and on subhead C which deals with lands. In that case there has been an increase of 65 per cent over last year.

Finally, I wish to pay tribute to all the members of the Defence Forces, including An Slua Muirí, for their dedication and commitment to duty. I also wish to sincerely thank the Minister and his staff for the co-operation and courtesy shown to me in the past year.

Dún Laoghaire): As the Minister of State with specific responsibility for Civil Defence, I would like to expand a little on what the Minister for Defence has already said. The training of Civil Defence volunteers continues at local training centres throughout the country and at weekend camps which are run annually by many counties. The organisation is in a very healthy state with approximately 20,000 active volunteers spread throughout the country.

I am sure that the Members of the House, particularly those who are also members of local authorities, will be well aware of the niche that Civil Defence has established for itself within the community. Indeed, Civil Defence is an important part of the emergency infrastructure of local authorities.

The life line of any voluntary body is the constant inflow of new members and I am glad to report that Civil Defence has attracted a large number of new members this year. This inflow will more than replace those trained members who have ceased to be active for one reason or another. These non-active members, so long as they remain within the Civil Defence organisation, would be expected to make themselves available for service should that need arise. I have every confidence that they would do so without the slightest hesitation. Indeed from my experience of meeting the Civil Defence volunteers, it seems that it is that type of organisation that once you have been a member, you never want to cut your ties with it completely even if you are no longer an active member. I think this says a great deal for the useful work being done by the organisation. A benefit of Civil Defence which is often overlooked is that by continually training new members a tremendous reservoir of people with some basic skills in first aid, firefighting, rescue and so on is steadily being built up within the community. I see it as one of my responsibilities to make Civil Defence as attractive an organisation as possible, so that it will have no difficulty in attracting new members. I would urge Deputies to actively encourage people, especially young people, to join Civil Defence. I can think of no better way for a person to spend his or her spare time than by devoting it to an organisation like Civil Defence which serves the community in such a worthwhile and practical way.

Very often the amount of voluntary work undertaken by the volunteers in Civil Defence week after week is not appreciated. These people are available at the drop of a hat in all sorts of situations, whether rescue, fire service or any other. All too often the organisation is not given the publicity it deserves whether by Members of this House, by members of local authorities or by the media. In this connection I make a special plea to the media to use their forum to give encouragement to Civil Defence whose volunteers give of their time without any compensation whatever but at cost to themselves. At times it is disheartening, after they have put much effort into preparations for competitions, both at regional and national level, to find that they receive only the minimal attention in the media despite the fact that these events are for them their all-Ireland final, as it were.

I join with Deputy Noel Treacy in his call to members of local authorities who have the responsibility for organising Civil Defence. I do not think that members of local authorities are made aware by local authority staffs of the function of Civil Defence in the various counties. At Estimate time in their local authorities, Deputies should pay particular attention to ensuring that Civil Defence is looked after properly and promoted in the various countries.

As the Minister for Defence mentioned a few moments ago, the allocation of equipment to local authorities continued this year. I had the pleasure some months ago of handing over some of this equipment at the Civil Defence School. I assure the House that any equipment issued to Civil Defence is very much appreciated by the members and is put to very good use. Among the equipment allocated his year were new landrovers, fire engines and other rescue equipment. This means a great deal to the volunteers. So long as I have responsibility in this area, I will fight to ensure that Civil Defence is given its fair share of the cake.

One of the ways in which the Government can show their support and commitment to Civil Defence is by providing the organisation with all of the necessary equipment etc. The fact that even within our stringent financial situation the allocation to Civil Defence has increased by more than 15 per cent in the past year is an indication of the present Government's commitment and concrete support for Civil Defence.

It is easy for us in political life to praise members of organisations but these words sound empty if we are not seen to be supporting the people concerned by way of making available to them the equipment they need. I am proud that we have been able to increase the allocation this year.

Last month we had the last of this year's national competitions and this marks the end of one Civil Defence year and the beginning of another. It is therefore opportune to stand back and review the year's work and to look ahead and see what the future holds. Any organisation, no matter what its size or objectives, needs to react to the changing times in which we are living. The Civil Defence organisation is no exception to this. It is therefore my intention in the next few months to have a major review of the whole Civil Defence organisation carried out.

Again, I would appeal to local authorities that if they have any ideas which they consider would be worthwhile either in promoting Civil Defence or in improving the organisation, they would put those ideas forward. They would be very welcome so far as I am concerned personally and also so far as the Civil Defence School is concerned.

We must ensure that the type of organisation we have is the one that is best suited to present day needs. We must ensure that we have an organisation capable of adapting to different situations and possible way and that we are getting the best possible value from it. We must ensure that we have an organisation capable of adapting to different situations and different circumstances. Any review which takes place must take cognisance of the fact that Civil Defence is a volunteer force, without those volunteers there would be no civil defence.

In the last two and a half years I have derived tremendous pleasure from being associated with Civil Defence. I have been extremely impressed by the enthusiasm and dedication of the volunteers who give so much of their free time to the service of the community and I can assure the House that tremendous value is being received from the money which is being allocated to Civil Defence.

In the past 12 months particularly we have succeeded in quelling the notion that Civil Defence in some way supported nuclear war on nuclear weapons. The organisation do not support in any way the build up of nuclear weapons. Civil Defence would make themselves available in the event of the type of catastrophe which all of us hope will never take place but in peacetime the organisation continues to play a tremendous role in dealing with emergencies of all kinds. This is not a political issue. We are talking about a volunteer force of which we can all be proud and we must avail of every opportunity of supporting these people and of encouraging young people especially to join the organisation.

First I want to thank the Minister for the courtesy I received in all my dealings with him. I include in that all the people in his Department and the members of the Defence Forces with whom I had any dealings. I compliment them and thank them.

I want to compliment the Minister on putting a very brave face on a very pathetic picture: a very threadbare Estimate is how it could be described. He has brushed the Martin-Henry, taken it out from under the mattress, had the creases put in the right place but I am afraid it is looking the worse of the wear. It might do for fatigue duty but, on an occasion like this when Estimates are presented for a year ahead, something better is needed. I am positive that the Department — whether it be the Civil Defence section of it or any other — need a massive injection of money.

The saddest feature of today's Defence Forces is that there is no recruitment, no new intake worth mentioning. There are figures trotted out to us of the recruits taken on in the Army, Naval Service and Air Corps during the year and there is a token amount taken up to make up for wastage. But in times of frightful unemployment such as these there is very little wastage. There is no hope of an Army career today for many boys and girls who are thinking in that direction. The House will remember that there was an advertisement at one time showing the rangers, encouraging one to join today's Army. There was a great big poster at the entrance to the Curragh of where one should go if one wished to join. All that has changed. The areas from which traditionally Army people came — I was just mentioning this to my colleague from Wexford here — is an outlet no longer available and is denied them.

One can fool a lot of people with statistics but in the Army apprentice school in 1984 there were 107 apprentices taken on in the Army or Air Corps whereas this year 80 — 60 and 20 — are being taken on. That is a cutback. Also the Reserve (First Line), the FCA and the Slua Muirí training is being restricted to seven days. The Minister mentioned a 7 per cent increase in 1985. They did not receive sufficient in 1984. Therefore a 7 per cent or even a 15 per cent increase as was mentioned in the Civil Defence Estimate will make no appreciable difference in the coming year. There are more postulants entering convents today than there are recruits going into the Army. The difference is that nuns are looking for recruits and cannot get them but the Army will not allow those who want to come in to be recruited. The excuse advanced is our financial difficulties, that the economic climate is not suitable. It is all a matter of money and it is really bad for morale. There are extra duties imposed on those who are there and a break in the continuity or intake.

There must not be the same interest in training when there are not that many to train. There is a very bad balance beginning to be felt in the Army. If the Coalition remain in office too long — though, thank God, that is unlikely — we will finish up with "Dad's Army". An army needs young people. Young people are needed in the Navy, in the Equitation School, on the Asgard training vessel or whatever. Worst of all is the fact that there are girls on the waiting list — this has been referred to before — with no earthly hope of their being taken on. They are being kept there on a string. Some years ago there were great fanfares when these girls were first admitted. There is now a waiting list. The Minister could be sued for breach of promise now by these girls who had been hoping to get into the Army. Why has not the Minister the honesty and sincerity to tell them that there is no hope for them, that they will not be taken on? That policy should be changed. It is up to the Ministers involved at Cabinet level to provide the money. How is there money for youth employment schemes, hundreds of millions? At one time it was considered that £5,000 was sufficient to keep a recruit; possibly that figure would have to be raised now to approximately £8,000. Indeed £8 million is not a lot to ask for, which would keep 1,000 recruits. Think of the injection of youth, idealism that would mean. If one is talking about training for young people, what better training or experience could young people get than to serve in the Army.

The Cabinet should be asked what they will do for our young people, young people anxious for a chance to serve their country, to channel their idealism in the right way. If necessary — as our spokesman has said — a special corps should be established with an intensive one year course of military training, when we would have a very fine reserve force. That is something worthwhile to which we should devote attention. If we want to get young people into proper training, letting them do good for the country, there is an opportunity to do so rather than inventing schemes of less value.

Last week I was in Germany. I had the satisfaction of visiting Schleswig-Holstein near the Border and saw Border military police, if one might describe them as such. While I yield to none in my admiration for the Irishman as a soldier, I must say that, when I saw the army camp there, the facilities they had, with its up-to-date transport system, comparisons with ours were very odious. Most of our barracks are falling down, need replacement. At present ordinary day-to-day maintenance is being neglected. That is because of the recruitment embargo that three must leave before one can be recruited. As far as I know there are now 90 labourers short in the Curragh Camp and there are tradesmen short too. Work is being done there on contract. There is much work to be done. Why do we not recruit the people to do it? Would that not be much better than inventing schemes or asking local authorities to think of any type of work people could do. This work is there to be done.

I should like to know what long term plans we have for bringing our military installations into the twentieth never mind the twenty-first century. Any plans we have are mere stop-gap ones. The new cookhouse or dining hall only helps to emphasise the drabness of the rest of the camp. I think if Deputies had a look around the camp they would agree with me.

I notice that there is a lot made of the £8.35 million provided under Subhead S of the Estimates, which represents an increase of 37 per cent, and a sum of £5 million for a range of new buildings and a number of major renovations. Five million pounds would not go too far on a range of new buildings and a number of major renovations. Many pious hopes are enunciated but there is no earthly prospect of them coming to anything in the coming year. I agree that the items in mind are laudable but they will not be completed over the period of the present Estimate. I was going to say — during the life of the present Government — but it might be asking too much to expect that they be completed in that time.

I agree with my colleague when he mentioned Army housing and married quarters. The married quarters I know are appalling, even the new ones are not good. Some years ago I made a determined effort that the problem of overholders would be tackled with the co-operation of local authorities. At that time in Kildare we had approximately 40 overholders. I had hoped that over a five year programme we could have provided those people with houses. That scheme would appear to have been shelved. The Department of Defence always pass the buck, contending it is a matter for the local authorities to house these people. I know of landlords who have people in their houses, who have given their lives in the service of a particular landlord, who feel an obligation to assist them to be housed; they do not just turf them out. I believe the Department of Defence could provide an allocation each year — anyhow it all comes out of the same coffers — to enable this problem to be tackled. By allocation I mean a specific sum — I am not asking too much — that would build a certain number of houses in each area earmarked for Defence Forces personnel, that would be seen not to diminish the amount of houses available for civilians awaiting them. Married quarters, even the new ones, are not the answer. Young people, particularly young married women, like to go into them as a last resort only. As I said before, the building of married quarters is only perpetuating the problem. I should like to see schemes initiated in the proximity of Army barracks, like local authority purchase scheme houses, under which an Army man who signed on for 21 years, at the end of that period might see himself as the owner of his house. His rent could be deducted from his wages during that time; he would eventually own the house and he would not then be placed on the housing list in middle age.

I might refer to a very laudable idea that emerged during the year whereby people in the public service would be encouraged to have a career break. I happened to raise at Question Time the question of an Army nurse who wanted to go and nurse abroad. I asked the Department of Defence their attitude and if this girl would come under the guidelines laid down for this career break. They said they would examine it and they eventually decided that Army nurses could get a career break. By that time the young lady had gone to nurse in Africa. The Minister for the Public Service decided that the scheme cannot be made retrospective in her case. She was the guinea pig and everyone else who has gone after her will qualify for a career break. That is sharp practice. I would ask the Minister to use his good offices to change that decision.

A new problem has reared its head in the Curragh. At present there are 20 itinerant horses and caravans permanently camped on the Curragh and new ones have recently arrived. There are mares and foals and even a piebald stallion. They are roaming at will around the Curragh interfering with race horses and they are in the full view of anyone who cares to look at them. Fifty years ago the head ranger would remove stray animals or even people who had the temerity to drive with a horse and cart across the Curragh. Who is responsible now? Both the Army and the Garda recognise that these people are breaking the law but they cannot impound these horses if they know the owners. Neither the Army nor the Garda can do anything. That is ridiculous. What is wrong in Ireland today is that we are gone soft; the judges in the courts are gone soft and the people are gone soft. Are the Army and the Garda going soft as well?

During my term as Minister for Defence we used the Army to help to move a blockade of unfortunate fishermen from Dublin port — the fishermen were protesting to highlight genuine grievances about the payments on boats. They have plenty of reason to feel more aggrieved since. Today a new breed of itinerants can flout the law and interfere with an industry which has given great employment in the Curragh. They can put unfortunate apprentices, perhaps riding two year olds, in danger of being hurt in an accident, not to mention the danger of animal diseases. Yet we are told we cannot do anything. I demand that the Minister use the Army to remove these itinerants as they are in breach of the law of the land. We send troops to the Lebanon and to the Border to keep the peace and we cannot keep the peace here and enforce the law. Who is running the country? The party to which the Minister belongs always prided themselves on being the party of law and order, but their record is fairly dismal. The Minister should enforce the law or get out and let somebody else enforce it. In his speech the Minister said that the duties undertaken by the Defence Forces in support of the Garda Síochána are necessary to uphold security and maintain the rule of law. That is an empty phrase. If we mean what we say we should start at home in the Curragh.

I pay tribute to our UNIFIL contingent in the Lebanon. We continue to send out the battalions every six months on a dangerous peace-keeping mission. It is right to do so. They have done a good job, and I hope will continue to do so. The Army welcome the opportunity to prove their mettle abroad and to put their years of training into practice; but they have not got much co-operation on the other side either from the Palestinians or the Israelies, who should realise that they have a duty to help to keep the peace as well. I am glad that this aspect was highlighted during President Hertzog's recent visit here. I hope our dissatisfaction with their activities was brought home to them. The role of the UNIFIL forces must be more clearly defined and their mandate should be more clearly outlined and the withdrawal of troops observed. If our Army is to do a job with the UN forces we cannot be used as pawns on an international chess board. We are welcome into most trouble spots, whether it be the Congo, Cyprus or the Middle East, and we cannot be classified as being pro-West or pro-East. We do not have an imperial remorseful conscience and we have no ideological hang up. We are neutral and we want to stay that way. That is why we are acceptable as an independent peace keeping force anywhere in the world. We can be relied upon to be independent and to have integrity.

I must take the Minister to task in relation to neutrality. Perhaps the Minister was sending up smoke signals or had been asked to fly a kite, but he gave me the impression that he was speaking from personal conviction when he indicated that our neutrality could be bartered, diluted or abandoned. Other Cabinet Ministers disassociated themselves from the Minister's view; and, as public opinion made itself clear, their disassociation widened. I hope that is the last we will hear of it and that the "For sale" sign will be taken down as far as our neutrality is concerned. Any Irish man will say that he cherishes neutrality most; and if you ask one what De Valera was most remembered for, he will say it is because he kept Ireland neutral during the war. The Minister's action has made him suspect in the eyes of the public, as did the Minister's miscalculation when he had an Irish contingent participate in the British Legion Poppy Day ceremony. The Minister's subsequent actions continue to raise doubt in people's minds. Our neutrality is in greater danger today because of a Coalition Government. There was a suggestion that we would have a national day of remembrance in order to get away from a lot of this. What has happened to that suggestion? Has it been shelved, or has it been acted upon?

I share the Minister's pleasure at the success during the year of the Army Equitation School, both at home and abroad, and I hope it continues. I hope that the intake of special cadets, a scheme that was geared towards equestrian prowess, will continue. I was pleased to learn of the full programme that the Asgard carried out during the year. It is a glorious opportunity for a maritime country to show its wares, even though our shipping history is not so good of late. Certain people make overtures that the Army School of Equitation and the Asgard could be dispensed with. I know the Minister will resist any attempt to dispense with their services because they are well worth while.

I am glad that the Minister mentioned in his speech that canvassing for cadetships would disqualify a candidate. If one told that to the people in the Curragh they would have a right to ask how canvassing did not disqualify the Minister for Finance's man for the job in the Corps of Engineers. The Minister for Finance admitted that he used his influence to secure this appointment. What is sauce for the goose should be sauce for the gander and what is good for the cadets should also apply in the Corps of Engineers. To make the comparison worse, a cadet who did not pass his exam would not have any hope of getting through, but Deputy Duke's man did not pass the interview and still he got the job. It would be hard to explain that to people who want a fair cut of the whip.

I note during the year that we had constant media references and hysterical demands to withdraw our troops from the Border. It would be well to remember that they are there to protect the people, not least the citizens of this State, and that they are doing an excellent job. They are not there as policemen for Britain and they never acted in such a capacity. The rare events that happen should reinforce the opinion that they are needed there and that they cannot be dispensed with.

I had thought that by now we would have had our new fishery protection vessel fully operational and that we would have the helicopters on board and working, because they are needed. I am glad that arrangements have been made. I hope that the deadline will be met and that the helicopters will be functional. Now more than ever we need a greater surveillance over a wider area and the helicopter bearing fisheries protection vessel should give us the opportunity to provide that.

I envy the Minister. He is lucky. He is involved with our Defence Forces — the last bastion of discipline and patriotism in the dying years of the 20th century. I appeal to him not to stifle them for lack of funds, not to turn their idealism into cynicism. The cynicism that is growing daily in our young people is possibly their greatest fault today, and I hope that it will not be increased. We should allow the Army, the Navy and the Defence Forces generally to grow naturally by allowing a proper intake of recruits, of young people. We should show our appreciation to the troops along the Border who work long hours day and night at a dangerous and demanding task. We must not allow the FCA to be run down any further. We must give them an opportunity to be revitalised. For instance, why in the last few years was a decision taken by some mole in the Revenue Commissioners that the few extra pounds the FCA people got for holiday duty would be subject to income tax? They would spend that much travelling on buses across the city at night for the rest of the year to do their training. They do not deserve such treatment. I hope a formula will be found which can satisfy the Revenue Commissioners or somebody with power to tell them that is no longer taxable.

We have mentioned Civil Defence here. It is peculiar that the Minister felt that it was maligned and got a raw deal on the media and the Minister of State felt that it had not proper public relations. That amazes me. If this Government cannot provide proper relations for every branch under their care it is a poor look out for everyone else. Civil Defence does a good job within the resources available to it, as do the Red Cross. It deserves better treatment than it is getting. We should, and I will, take the Minister's hint to use whatever influence we have at local authority level to encourage Civil Defence and to enable others to join.

The Defence Forces have always been loyal and, I am sure, will always play their part and will perform any duty allocated to them; but the Government and the Minister of the day must play their part, too, and the forces deserve better treatment.

Much of the Minister's speech referred to the participation of the Irish forces abroad in the Lebanon and other places and, of course, we are all very proud of the work they do there. However, as a Border Deputy I wish to make a short contribution relating to the activities of the Army in the Border area. I want to express thanks on behalf of myself and the people of Dundalk, north Louth and Monaghan for the great work the Defence Forces have done over the last 16 years of tragic warfare in the North. I congratulate the Army and the Garda Síochána for the job they have done in protecting my native town of Dundalk and ensuring that, despite the savage atrocities committed by the IRA in the North, there was only one retaliatory bomb, which, sad to say, took the lives of two citizens. It is a great tribute to the 24 hour surveillance that the Army undertake that we have had only one such bombing episode. I want to express the thanks of all the people in the Border region for the tremendous work done by the Defence Forces in that surveillance field.

The Minister said in his speech that over 12,000 military parties were supplied in Border areas and that over 3,500 escorts for movement of cash were provided. I want to voice my disapproval of the use of the Army for the transfer of cash to the commercial banks. The banks are well fitted to pay for that and I fail to see why that support should be provided by the ratepayers for people who have the money to pay for it. If the cost of that was quantified I am sure it would add up to a frightening figure.

Relating back to the Border area, I want to draw the attention of the House and of the nation to the appalling drain on the State's meagre resources that subversive forces are causing. The various shades of the IRA, whether Provisional, Official, IRSP, INLA or whatever, last year cost the State £186 million and over the last 16 years since the outbreak of the troubles in the North probably between £2 billion and £3 billion has been expended on Border surveillance. That is a mind-boggling figure for a country of fewer than 3.5 million people. If that money has been free for redeployment on the employment of people, I doubt if we would have anybody on the unemployment list. That illustrates the terrible damage being done to our country by the forces of subversion, both internationally and economically. I do not know how these people with perverted ideas of nationalism and republicanism can candone the expenditure of £3 billion. In addition, the number of atrocities committed by them and the number of lives they have taken in those 16 years makes one intensely ashamed of them. We should identify them as the greatest threat to this nation. They pose the greatest threat to this State and its economic capability and the welfare of its citizens; and the nation would be well rid of them.

I would like to draw the Minister's attention also to the number of unacceptable incursions by the British forces in the Border region in the recent past. I think the number is over 90 in the last two years. By both land and sea in the Carlingford Lough area they have come in frequently and infringed Irish sovereignty. That is totally unacceptable. Recently we had the worst incursion of all when a unit of solidiers numbering up to 40 came a distance of 400 yards into County Louth and added insult to injury by issuing a statement that it was due to a map reading error. That was an insult to the Irish nation because the incident occurred just a few fields from their barracks at 11 a.m. They have got away with these frequent incursions. In a previous debate on that subject I suggested that British Army personnel coming in here bearing guns should be arrested and charged in an Irish court. Until that deterrent is provided these unwelcome incursions will continue to take place. I ask the Minister to look at that. In the incident I have referred to they would have come in even further but for the presence of the Irish Army and the Garda Síochána.

The Minister referred to the purchase of helicopters and there has recently been talk of the creation of a helicopter unit for the Garda. Surely some type of arrangement could be made whereby Army helicopters could be provided for the use by Garda personnel on joint patrols, particularly in the Border area.

In relation to the rates of pay which the Minister enumerated, I would point out that, in contrast to the rates of pay for the Garda Síochána, the rates of pay for Border duties for ordinary soldiers is very low and should be upgraded. The Minister might also direct his attention to the differential scale used for deciding the pensions of NCOs and others. Apparently they are on a different scale to that used for officers. This is unfair. There is no difference in the length of service and the same scale should be used.

I would also direct the Minister's attention to the dangers under which the Defence Forces, Army or Garda Síochána, work. In December 1983 a solider was murdered in Ballinamore and there has been a continuing toll of Garda personnel. Some deterrent should be provided for the protection of these people and of all Irish citizens. Why is capital punishment still on the Statute Book but not implemented?

That is a matter for another Minister.

If we are not going to use it we should get rid of it. I should like to comment on Deputy Power's reference, which was in extremely bad taste, to the Minister's participation in the Poppy Day ceremonies. Deputy Power seems to have tunnel vision on matters of that nature. The Poppy Day commemorations were for people who give their lives in defence of a free Europe, people from all the countries of Western Europe, members of various defence forces and the hapless citizens, millions of whom gave their lives against the oppression of the greatest madman this century has known, Adolf Hitler. We should remember and honour the dead and not cast slurs on the Minister for attending. I admire his courage and hope he will continue that practice for the rest of his period in office.

I am glad of the opportunity to speak on this debate. The Minister in his speech dealt with the question of housing for serving Army personnel and the problem of overholding in the case of retired Army personnel. The Minister at Question Time some weeks ago and in some speeches referred to the fact that there is very welcome liaison between the local authorities and the housing officers of the Army with regard to the housing of Army personnel. Essentially the Minister is correct in stating that the housing of married Army personnel is the responsibility of the local authority. The Army have chosen in various towns to provide Army housing. I do not know how many towns are involved but there are two Army schemes in Athlone and isolated Army houses both inside and outside the barracks. When an Army person retires from service he is overholding and is not in receipt of benefits from the Army until he hands back his house to the Army authorities.

Various solutions have been put forward over the years by successive Governments. One solution was that Army personnel should have the option of buying the Army houses, but that was not feasible because in many instances the houses are either within barrack walls or close by. It could be construed as dangerous to allow civilians to take up occupation of such houses.

The growing liaison between the housing sections of local authorities and the Army housing authorities is to be commended. Various county managers and town clerks have entered into loose but worthwhile arrangements whereby when an Army person ceases service a house is offered from the local authority stock at the earliest opportunity. This is a welcome development. The system varies from area to area and I do not know if it has yet become formally established, but it certainly works in a very harmonious fashion in Athlone where an informal structure was set up some years ago. I know from speaking to other Deputies and from listening to the questions put here some weeks ago that this arrangement operates in other towns as well. I know that our spokesman and Deputy Power have already mentioned this subject but I hope the Minister will bear with the tautology. The Minister has referred to the fact that debate is taking place between officials of his Department and others on this matter. I would urge that this development be given an impetus.

I refer in particular to the position of an Army couple who are now in occupation of an Army house in a town like Athlone or Dundalk. They are not coming to the end of Army service and they decide to purchase a house for themselves now rather than depend on the local authority when the end of their service comes and they are not in such an advantageous position for an SDA or HFA loan. A man of 30 to 40 years of age may wish to provide a family home as distinct from a house from the Army or local authority, but he is at a disadvantage when he looks for a local authority loan vis-à-vis urban or county council tenants of that authority. Some weeks ago, in reply to a question on this matter, the Minister asked why a grant of £5,000 should be given to an Army man who does not occupy a local authority house or has not done so for three years, which is the criterion for the provision of such a grant. He should receive such a grant because he has tenure under the housing authority even though that tenure is an Army one. That housing authority has entered into arrangements with the local Army authority to facilitate movement within their spheres of activity. Although it would be essentially a decision of the Minister for the Environment, perhaps the Minister for Defence could arrange for the extension to Army personnel of the different types of bonuses available to a local authority tenant upon vacating his house and purchasing another house. The family are eligible for the £3,000 mortgage subsidy, which is very advantageous. Under the SDA they are also eligible for a higher loan of £20,000, as distinct from the ordinary loan of £16,000 and for the £3,000 mortgage subsidy; and local authority tenants of over three years standing are eligible for the £5,000. These bonuses are available to a local authority tenant when the family agree to surrender tenancy and purchase a private house, secondhand or new. If it is new, an extra sum of £2,000 is available.

Because the housing structures have become so intertwined between the housing authorities and the Army, those facilities should be extended to Army personnel. They have an added reason for looking for them because they have occupied Army houses and will be surrendering them to the Army in good condition, which is a prerequisite for the receipt of any of these bonuses. They have also been tenants of a housing authority and, above all, they have served their country. We all serve our country in various ways by going about our daily work, but Army people do so in a special way, which has been recognised in the Minister's speech. He has given due and welcome recognition to all aspects of Army life.

The Minister told us that about 600 people were recruited to the Army in 1984 and that recruitment for 1985 would proceed, as and when vacancies occur, from a list already prepared in order of date of applications. I hope that this can be enlarged and that there will be further recruitment. I am convinced — and I know that others share my view — that the standard of discipline and training which the Army enjoy in Ireland is extremely high and they can only benefit from an influx of very well educated young people. Thankfully, through the efforts of many over the years, there are very good educational facilities available to most young men and women.

Some three weeks ago at Question Time I asked about the non-recruitment of female personnel to the Defence Forces. I received a courteous but unsatisfactory reply in which the Minister said that in a recession recruitment is limited to enlistment into combative areas of the Defence Forces. I accept that females do not come within this area and I am not demanding that they should become a combative force. I understand that last year there was merely replacement of females who had left and that this year, according to a letter which a constituent received, it is stated that, due to scarce resources there will be no recruitment of females to the Army. I know that this does not come within the ambit of the Employment Equality Agency. That may be in accordance with the letter of the law, but when a decision was taken to open recruitment to males and females the spirit demanded that it should be carried through, albeit in smaller proportions. I am not making any extreme demands but women should be interviewed and a proportion taken into the Army. All Army activity is not combative and various other duties are carried out within the Defence Forces such as clerical and domestic duties and others which female recruits could do. I ask the Minister to give very serious consideration to this matter.

It would not be right or proper for Deputies to miss the opportunity, which only presents itself once a year, of expressing their appreciation and that of the public generally to the Army and to extend their grateful thanks and gratitude to them. From the foundation of the State to the present the Army have excelled themselves in dedication, loyalty and in the discharge of their duties. I doubt if any other small nation enjoys the services of such a well trained, fully disciplined, loyal and dedicated force. I should like to join with other Members in expressing our appreciation to all members of the Defence Forces from the Chief of Staff to the most humble dedicated solider and in the tributes to the Air Corps and those connected with administration at Baldonnel. A very high standard of efficiency is evident at that centre. There is little need to recall the honour, distinction and joy that the members of the School of Equitation have brought to many people, especially those who follow the exploits of the Army jumping team. I should like to make a special plea to the Minister — I do not think he needs a plea from any Member because of his special interest in that school — to provide more money so as to ensure that the best horses are made available to the school. It is important that the name of Ireland is held in high esteem in horse jumping arenas throughout the world. A special tribute should be paid to those who have brought honour and distinction to themselves and the Army.

It is only right that I should extend my appreciation to those dedicated people connected with the Naval Service. The standard of loyalty is very high. I am sure it is agreed all around that there is a need to expand the Naval Service. Many people fail to realise the importance of Civil Defence. It must be remembered that we are living in an age when any irresponsible lunatic may press a button and cause a nuclear disaster. If such a disaster occurs many European countries are not prepared for it. I should like to associate myself sincerely with the opinion of Members that we should have a revival of interest in Civil Defence. Not alone must our people be alerted to the danger of a nuclear disaster but we must provide accommodation to deal with it. The plea for more involvement in Civil Defence should be taken more seriously. The director of Civil Defence and those connected with it deserve our praise.

One of the reasons I was anxious to contribute to the debate on the Estimate was to refer to the contribution the Defence Forces make to the UN peace-keeping operations. Our Army personnel engaged in UN peace-keeping operations throughout the world have brought an untold amount of credit and distinction on the country. Those engaged in the difficult task of peace-keeping in the Middle East deserve our praise. They are known to be efficient and responsible. On the two occasions I visited Cyprus I was proud to hear in Famagusta, Nicosia and other towns the wonderful tributes paid to the Irish Army. The late General James Quinn is still spoken of with great respect and affection throughout Cyprus. It was a revelation for me to hear Turkish and Greek Cypriots unite in tribute to the Irish peace-keeping force. It is pleasing to hear the stories of courage by Irish soldiers in the face of great danger when trying to save the populations of villages during disturbances in that country.

I have heard many stories from people who hold high positions in the country of the heroic deeds of Irish soldiers. They told me that they had not witnessed before or since the courage and gallantry of the late General Quinn and his men who on more than one occasion succeeded in stopping attacks on innocent civilians. As a result of their courage in intervening hundreds of lives were saved. Of all the countries that served in a peace-keeping role in Cyprus, the Irish get most credit for their gallantry. In Nicosia daily tributes are paid to our soldiers who performed an excellent peace-keeping role.

We can be proud of our Army and we should be concerned to keep it at the highest standard. An excellent type of person is in control of administration in the Army and well educated people serve in it. Never before have we had an opportunity to send to troubled areas throughout the world courageous soldiers who are well trained in peace-keeping. They have proved efficient in dealing with many difficult problems and excelled themselves in bringing about peaceful solutions to many problems in the Middle East. I salute the members of the Irish Defence Forces.

I would like the Minister to give special recognition to all former members who served in the Defence Forces since the foundation of the State. If he pursues this with the Army authorities he will be pushing an open door. We do not give these men sufficient recognition for their outstanding contributions to the preservation of peace and law and order. We will never be able to give sufficient gratitude to the founders of our Defence Forces, many of whom are still alive and well. We see these people walking through our streets but very little official recognition is given to them for their loyal and dedicated service. It is a pity the younger generation do not know the gallantry and courage of these men and the dangerous undertakings in which they participated. They took risks to give us freedom, to give us the right to run our own country and, above all, to ensure that the public had the right to own property and to live and act as free citizens within the law. We owe a debt of gratitude to all those who served in our Defence Forces. During my short period in the Department of Defence I wondered what I could do to ensure that these men got the recognition to which they were entitled. Let us never be niggardly with these people. We should give monetary recognition in their advanced years to those who served this nation so well and with great distinction.

From time to time the Army authorities should review the presence of our Army on the streets. People in democracies see an Army presence on the streets as a sign of governmental dictatorship. The Army should assist the Garda in safeguarding life and property. Our Garda are an unarmed force giving an excellent service but there should be a greater Army presence in our towns and cities where there is evidence of lawlessness. Thugs should not be allowed to put people's lives in danger and the Army would have a great contribution to make in keeping our cities safe for our people to walk in day and night. I ask the Minister to keep that in mind.

I pay tribute to all connected with the Army Apprenticeship School. I also want to mention the pensions for retired members of the Defence Forces and the special allowances for the Old IRA. There are not many of them left and as the numbers are decreasing there should be no question but to increase the allowances to those still with us.

The Army should acquire more modern equipment. Our Army transport vehicles are out of date and I hope that in the near future efforts will be made to replace many of those vehicles which have long outlived their usefulness and that the Army will have new, modern vehicles. Pennywise and pound foolish — we feel we should get as much as we can out of these vehicles but in my view it is right to replace these vehicles as soon as possible.

I want to pay a very special tribute to the members of the Defence Forces on Border duty. This is a very difficult task. It is easy to say that we are spending too much on Border service, but we must protect our territory and prevent anybody from invading it. The necessary steps must be taken to ensure that there will be an Army presence on our side of the Border in the event of any incursion, no matter from what source. I want to pay a tribute to the Army officers and men who in very difficult times, particularly during the winter months, have given such loyal and gallant service to this country while on Border and prison security duties. I am aware of the contribution the Army are making to prison security at Portlaoise. I would be very pleased if the Minister would convey to the Army Chief of Staff the sentiments being expressed by Members of this House in recognition of the gallant service given to this State by the members of our Defence Forces.

No Member has referred to the Army bands. This is Music Year and the Army bands have brought gladness to the hearts of many. The No. 1 Army Band and the other bands are the pride and joy of all music lovers. It is only right that we should put on the record of this House our compliments to the director of the Army bands and to express the hope that as far as possible these bands will be expanded and that there will never be a curtailment of funds.

I want to pay a tribute to the contribution made by young and older Army officers to the Irish language. I have been immensely impressed on every occasion on which I have visited Renmore Barracks in Galway and other Army barracks in which the Irish language is part of the life of the young Army officer and of many of the senior officers as well. It is only right that on the occasion of the annual Estimate we should put the Minister for Defence and the Army Chief of Staff in a position to pass on the compliments of this House, particularly of those of us who are concerned with and dedicated to the complete revival of the Irish language. Our members of the Defence Forces on foreign service bring the name of Ireland abroad, as do our Naval Service. It is good that our language is being spoken so freely by so many members of them. I salute them and ask the Minister to give them every possible encouragement in their advancement of the Irish language. Their families have also excelled themselves in the promotion of that language.

On occasions when I addressed cadets and young Army officers, I always spoke about ambition. There is no greater platform for ambition than the Army, particularly for those who are making an Army career. There is only one Chief-of-Staff and there can be only one. However, every young Army officer must endeavour to reach the pinnacle of success, with the target of being Chief-of-Staff. This will bring Army personnel to the highest standard of training, leading to a highly disciplined and dedicated Army of which our people can be rightly proud.

I have never heard criticism from any taxpayer about the amount of money being spent on the Army. Now is the time for the Minister for Defence to be armed with the support of all parties in this House in approaching his Cabinet colleagues, the Defence and Security Subcommittee of the Cabinet and the Minister for Finance with a request that money be provided for the Defence Forces in addition to what has been provided this year. Young Irish boys who want to serve their country and who are unemployed and disheartened, with little future, would love to have the Defence Forces as a career and they should be enabled to join the Army. I am entirely dissatisfied with the low numbers of Army recruits. We have the barracks, the parade grounds, and the facilities. All we need is the money and that can, should and must be made available. A country which cannot defend its people and its resources and cannot uphold law and order and pay its Army well is in a serious situation. The Army should have from 5,000 to 6,000 more recruits. I ask the Department of Defence to endeavour substantially to increase the numbers.

It is very disheartening for public representatives to be meeting so many people who would love to join the Army, get military training and enjoy the wonderful facilities in sports training and gymnastics and other facilities readily available in the Army. Why keep these great facilities, physical and otherwise, from young people who want to avail of them? I ask the Minister to have a change of heart and to open the various barracks and take in those well educated and highly qualified people who want to serve the nation, experience foreign service and follow in the fine tradition of the courageous men who were the founders of our Army. There are many young people very eager to serve in the Army or other branch of the Defence Forces. I want to salute everybody connected with the Army. The very short time during which I was in the Army was perhaps the most exciting in my life. I saw the inside workings of the Army, its administration, discipline and, above all, its loyalty and dedication to people and country. I doubt if there is any section of our people more dedicated to upholding democracy and safeguarding life and property than are the members of our Defence Forces. I ask that they be given every encouragement and that no barrier be put in their way.

I hope that, in so far as possible, our members when called upon by the United Nations will always be ready to serve in the cause of world peace. I venture to say that there are records in the Department of Defence readily available for the Minister to inspect in which the Secretaries-General of the United Nations, present and past, have written in glowing terms of their great contribution, far ahead of that of other nations. Ireland has something to contribute in its Army. Let us not be afraid to invest courageously in the building up and strengthening of our Army, for our own country and for the maintenance of our neutrality but, above all, for a great contribution towards world peace.

I express my appreciation of the services of the Minister and of all Ministers of Defence of all parties who have done their part in encouraging our Army. Let us hope that there will be a new awakening and a complete review of every aspect of Army life and discipline and, above all, of the contribution which members of the Defence Forces can give to the Garda Síochána and all other authorities for the security and protection of our country as a free, neutral and independent nation.

I must tell Deputy Browne that the Minister must intervene in the debate at 10.15 p.m.

I shall be as brief as possible because my colleague, Deputy Wilson, wants to make a few comments. While we are regarded only as a small nation, we can always say that the makeup of our Defence Forces and their personnel are well organised and highly disciplined, with a record of outstanding achievement both at home and abroad equal to many bigger nations. Our Army at present are providing a very worth-while back-up service for the Garda Síochána in many different roles of security and protection. Yet the role of the Army may not always be appreciated by the general public. This must be a source of concern to us all.

The Army have become involved in many roles, protecting the security of our country and its people. Much of this involvement has been of a dangerous nature, yet the Army personnel have never shirked their responsibilities and through sheer courage and bravery have always put the protection of this country and its people first.

We are living in the era of the criminal, when life is no longer sacred. It is important that the Army provide this back-up role to the Garda in such circumstances, to fight such issues as crime and subversion. Their services are now required, in conjunction with those of the Garda, in the movement of money, particularly between banks and throughout the country. This is one area I should have to question. The banks, who are making massive profits, should have to pay towards their security. It is immoral that the taxpayers should have to pay while the banks are not paying their fair share. The Minister should encourage the banks to make a valuable contribution towards paying for this service and for their security. The Army have been involved in checkpoint duties, in escorting the delivery of explosives and in trying to combat the dangers of subversive activities within the country at present.

The Army personnel have served this country and Governments with loyalty and commitment during the years. They are providing a service of which we should be proud, but we should not take it for granted. The Minister and his Government should continue to recognise their vital role and ensure that pay structures are adhered to, that unsociable hours worked are compensated for in monetary terms and that living accommodation is brought up to normal standards. I contend that a number of Army barracks are outdated and are not suitable from the structural or accommodation viewpoint to meet the required needs of the modern-day Army.

Another area I should like the Minister to consider seriously is recruitment to the Defence Forces. For almost four years regular recruitment to the Defence Forces has more or less ceased. I suppose the reasons are financial and are due to embargoes and cutbacks. Week after week at my clinic — and I am sure this happens at other clinics throughout the country — young men and women plead for an opportunity to join out Defence Forces. They cannot find work in their own environment due to the lack of job opportunities. These able-bodied people do not want to consign themselves to the dole queues but are prepared to join the Defence Forces and to play a positive and active role in the protection of their country. I understand quite well that the Minister is somewhat restrained by the financial position of his Department, but surely it must be in the best interests of all that young people who want to serve in our Defence Forces should have an opportunity to do so.

In the past few years millions of pounds have been collected by the State through the youth employment levy but most of it has been misspent on Mickey Mouse training schemes that have no long term benefit for the young people. The Minister for Defence should consider ways and means of having some of the moneys from this levy transferred to his Department in order to allow young people to join the Defence Forces and enable them to be trained in the world of work and discipline. In this way we can ensure that we will always have a young, highly trained, highly skilled Army. These young people are well educated and they want to play a vital role in the development of the country. This is an ideal opportunity to bring them into the Army and to train them in basic skills and disciplines.

Many young people in my locality and elsewhere are members of the FCA. They are unemployed and are anxious to pursue a full time career in the Army. They have spent many hours training and adhering to a very strict code of discipline comparable to Army life. The Minister has a duty to see that they have an opportunity to join our regular Defence Forces. In the event of recruitment again becoming a reality, I hope the Minister will ensure priority to members of the FCA.

Another area of contention that exists at present is with regard to the recruitment of women in the Army. Women consider they are being discriminated against and that an unofficial embargo against them exists in the Department. Many excuses have been put forward, such as lack of finance and lack of proper living quarters and it is stated that they would be unable to participate in combat. I contend that some of the women in my area would be well able to be in the front line and to look after themselves. The Minister will have to agree that in the past few years it has been impossible for women to join the Army despite the fact that the posts are supposed to be open to them. The Minister must ensure that adequate living facilities are made available. When Deputy Molloy was Minister for Defence he introduced the concept of women recruitment and he ensured that facilities were made available. I ask the Minister to give women the opportunity once more to enlist in the Army.

The Naval Service has expanded its role and the general public have become more aware of the importance of having this service. At present the Navy are playing an active role in protecting our valuable fishing industry from the illegal exploits of foreign fishing fleets such as the Spanish, the Dutch and the French. The Minister should ensure that the Naval Service is constantly kept under review with a view to having them expanded further to meet the increasing needs of protecting our coastline.

The recent decision to turn Spike Island into a prison brought to light the shabby conditions in which the naval personnel had to live. It seems amazing that when the Navy pulled out of the island the living quarters had to be renovated, that new kitchens and central hearing had to be installed, that the dormitories had to be refurbished and that all kinds of modern conveniences had to be installed to cater for the criminals being transferred there. Obviously what was good enough for our Navy personnel and their families was not good enough for men and women who do all in their power to undermine the institutions of the State. Such shabby treatment for our naval personnel is totally unacceptable. The Minister should ensure that people who work such unsocial hours in difficult and dangerous conditions are cared for in an adequate way. I am not being critical of the Minister but I am merely expressing the views and the expressions of concern made known to me recently about the changes made at Spike Island, which has been more or less turned into a holiday camp.

I am glad the Minister has seen fit to increase the allocation for the running of Civil Defence by 15 per cent. It is not adequate but it is a help and I ask the Minister to do everything possible to have it increased further. Throughout the country there is a strong commitment by local authorities to the Civil Defence organisation and the positive role it can play in the community in time of war and during disasters.

In Wexford we have an excellent Civil Defence service manned by men and women of outstanding dedication and loyalty. I am heartened by the number of young people who are involved in Civil Defence. I concur with the remarks of the Minister of State when he asked us to encourage young people to become more active in Civil Defence. He also asked us to enlighten them as to the positive role they can play in their community. The Civil Defence organisation is a very worthwhile body and we should encourage young people to join.

Finally, I should like to associate myself with previous speakers in paying tribute to the wonderful work done by our Defence Forces in Lebanon and in the Middle East generally. They are doing an excellent job in the matter of peace-keeping, as they have done in the past in many areas throughout the world. The role of peace-keeping is a difficult task, one that requires a disciplined force led by skilled officers. Our officers and troops have responded to the challenges in a manner of which all of us should be proud. They have brought honour and dignity to themselves and to our country and they have proved worthy ambassadors in the name of Ireland.

I should like to join with other speakers in paying a tribute to our Defence Forces, whether land, air or sea forces. From personal knowledge, I should like to put on record my appreciation of the quality of officers and men — a comprehensive term nowadays — in our forces. When the late and lamented Commandant John O'Reilly was in the Curragh I had occasion to meet many Army officers at that time and I was very impressed by their intellectual quality, their integrity, the vigour of their intellectual discussions and their commitment to this State. This is something we tend to take for granted here but it is something that cannot be taken for granted in all countries at present.

I refer in particular to the sterling service given in the Border areas. There has been an enrichment of the life of the Border towns by the people who are serving in our Defence Forces in those areas. From the economic and social point of view they have added strength to the towns. In all of those areas, and particularly in my own county town, the welcome the people extended to the Defence Forces when their numbers had to be increased because of the trouble in the Six Counties was something that was very consoling to people in public life.

I am disappointed that work on the new Cavan barracks is not scheduled to start in 1985. The Minister said that 1986 would be the year in which the work would begin. I hope he is genuine in this and that it is not a question of merely postponing this very worthwhile project into another Estimates year. Many years ago officers and men from the Cavan military barracks approached me about the work. I was told that a well directed kick from an Army boot would knock some of the walls in the old barracks. I appreciate that there was some delay in regard to the acquisition of a site for the new premises but I should like the Minister to bring forward some of the construction work to 1985.

I wish to pay tribute to our soldiers for their work abroad. As a member of a Government, at one stage, and especially after some members of the Army had been shot dead in the Middle East, I had doubts about the UN mandate or about the wisdom of sending troops to that part of the world. However, we had a demonstration from Army personnel of the work being done by their colleagues in the Middle East. I know that these men are ice cold in their judgment and that in many tight corners this has proved a very useful peace-keeping weapon in that area. What I was concerned about at that other time was whether the officer commanding had orders or a mandate that were strong enough. I am convinced that the situation has improved and the officer commanding in that area now is a man for whom I have great respect.

All of us here and the people generally appreciated the establishment of the State of Israel. That appreciation still obtains but some of the "aggro" which our troops are experiencing there is not what they deserve. I am aware that the Government and other responsible people have indicated to the Israeli authorities that our role in South Lebanon is a peace-keeping role and that consequently there is no justification for the attitude being adopted to our Army personnel there in some cases.

On the matter of apprenticeships, I urge the Minister to ensure that when the people concerned return to civilian life, the qualifications they have obtained in the Army will be given due recognition.

The third level education provisions are highly desirable and I am very pleased about the studies abroad. This must give an added dimension to the training of our officers. We have a special strength in that regard. I think it was Chesterton who said that the Irish do very well as soldiers because, though they are imaginative, they are realistic and they know that you cannot prove you won a battle when you have lost it or vice versa. It is good that our people should match their skills against others in courses abroad.

The Minister mentioned that Irish Shipping were providing a service for our Naval needs. I hope this service will be continued although Irish Shipping no longer exist.

I add my voice to the voices of all those who spoke urging the recruiting of women to the Defence Forces. I do not accept that women are not employable in the combative areas. From the Minister's constituency I had an account of how Russian infantry women liberated one of the more notorious of Hitler's concentration camps in 1945.

I wish to pay tribute also to the Army jumping team. Commandant Ahern, who was a very prominent member of the team when they were put together first, was from my area; so I grew up with a pride in the team and in the Army Equitation School.

There are many other points on which I should like to comment but there would not be time. I should like to comment on the radiation does rate meters referred to by the Minister. I hope there will be liaison between the Army and the civil authorities regarding the radiation that the Army would be concerned with. Deputy Gerard Brady has raised this matter in the House several times as he has raised also the matter of radiation in the seas.

Tá súil agam, mar a dúirt an Teachta Flanagan, go rachaidh an Ghaeilge ar aghaidh san Arm. Tá sean traidisiún ansin: tá Cath. Gaelach as Ghaillimh ar feadh i bhfad anois tugtha don Ghaeilge. Tá leabhar scríofa ag Mac Amhlaoibh, Saol Saighdiúra, faoin saol a chaith seisean mar bhall den Arm sa Ghaillimh. Tá súil agam go mbeidh an tAire taobh thiar d'fhorbairt na Gaeilge san Arm mar a bhí na h Airí a tháinig roimhe.

The Deputy can rest assured that I am as committed as were my predecessors to the revival of the use of Irish in the Army. I regret that I do not have sufficient time to reply to all the interesting points — some technical, some political — made in the course of the debate but all of which require an appropriate answer. Because of the limited time available to me, my reply will be truncated and will not include comment on some of the points raised.

I thank Deputies for the tributes they paid to the personnel of the Defence Forces. I will have pleasure in conveying those tributes to the Chief of Staff. For my own part, I would like to re-echo those tributes. They are entirely deserved.

Deputy Wilson referred to a matter that is fundamental, that is, the live commitment that members of the Defence Forces have to their country. That is patriotism in the purest sense.

The general theme of the contributions was to ensure that the facilities and equipment available to the Army are the best possible. In that connection I will deal with a number of issues that were raised. Regarding the acquisition of helicopters, Deputy Treacy deplored the fact that we were not replacing the Puma, which had been on lease for some time. The need for a Puma helicopter is not as acute now as it was then because the new Dauphin helicopters have an enhanced passenger carrying capacity compared with the present fleet. The models on order can carry ten people — seven passengers and a crew of three. They will also have the capacity to operate at sea in adverse weather conditions and to perform rescue missions such as the Pumas were engaged in recently. As a troop carrying helicopter and for operational reasons it would be nice to have a Puma, but these machines cost £8 million each and that amount would buy two Dauphins. Therefore, the Deputy will realise why we have not been able to buy the pumas.

The question of Army strength was raised by a great number of Deputies — Deputies Treacy, O'Rourke, Power, Browne and others. Of course I would share the wishes of the Deputies to see Army strength considerably increased but it gets down purely to a question of cash resources. One hundred men cost approximately £750,000 to £800,000 per annum for pay alone, excluding food, equipment, housing and all the other things that go with it. Deputy Treacy thought we should increase the Army by 2,000 extra men. Certainly I would love to be able to do that but that would cost in the region of £15 million to £16 million for pay alone. Quite frankly, the Exchequer, in its present position, is not able to afford that sort of money.

It is fallacious economics to argue that because we are spending certain money on youth training schemes we should divert that into recruiting more soldiers. It is just not a simple equation of transfer of money from one scheme to another. There are extra expenses involved and there are very significant marginal costs indeed. It it not possible to cure an unemployment position by recruiting people into the public service because they have to be paid out of taxation. As Deputies on the other side of the House know, part of our present difficulty is due to the fact that that experiment was tried: there was a rapid expansion of the public service following 1977 and, of course, huge borrowings to pay its cost, which is now one of the factors contributing to our economic difficulties. Unfortunately it is not possible to solve the unemployment problem or even to mitigate it by recruiting more soldiers. I should like to see increased numbers and that is something to which I will be giving attention with my Government colleagues when next year's Estimates come to be prepared.

On the question of women there seems to be a view growing on the opposite side of the House that there is a deliberate policy on my part not to recruit women. Women are not being enlisted at present because there is a restriction on the numbers we can carry in the Army and women are restricted in the role they can play. They are exempted from having a combatant role. That is part of the conditions under which women are recruited — they are excluded from having a combatant role. Deputy O'Rourke pointed out that there are people in the Army doing clerical jobs or driving and that women could do these jobs. What she overlooked is the fact that the men who are doing these jobs are all trained soldiers, deployable in operational roles and potentially would have to undertake a combatant role should the need arise. Therefore it is not an answer to say that there are jobs available for women in the Army suitable to them. There are, but they also have to have the second capacity to engage in a combatant role should the need arise. We are very constrained in numbers and this puts intense pressure on operational troops, and, unfortunately we do not have room for women recruits at present. It is not a question of quarters or other excuses, as Deputy Browne said. There are quarters available for them. The question of quarters arises with regard to female apprentices. We do not have quarters for them in the apprentice school in Naas. As Deputy Wilson rightly points out, there are some very urgent priorities in terms of building to house the present personnel in the Army that must be attended to first. Cavan barracks will be started in 1986. Nothing can be done in 1985 because planning is going ahead this year and, of course, planning must be completed before work can commence. But the planning team have an instruction to move with all urgency on the building of Cavan barracks and I am confident that the actual physical work will be ready to commence in 1986.

On the question of overholding referred to by Deputies Treacy, O'Rourke and Power — cases of Army personnel in Army houses who, on termination of their engagements, do not have any other house to go to, and end up being overholders. It is a problem mainly in the Curragh. It was ironic that Deputy Power should have been Minister for Defence and a member of Kildare County Council for years. Essentially to solve the problem of overholding what is needed is close liaison between the military authorities and the local authority. Deputy O'Rourke and I know from our experience in Athlone that there is good co-operation and the problem there, while not totally absent, is not a major one and we can deal with it as it arises. The problem arises mainly in Kildare. I would appeal to Deputy Power, in his absence and other members of Kildare County Council to co-operate with the military authorities, who would be only too willing to offer their co-operation.

The £5,000 grant was introduced as part of a general housing policy, payable to local authority tenants to encourage them to vacate local authority houses so that that stock of houses would be available to people coming into the housing market for the first time and would save the Exchequer having to build new houses for them. The people vacating the houses would be in a stronger financial position to build their own houses. That particular rationale does not apply to Army houses because there is not the same demand for them. It is general policy that members of the Defence Forces should be housed, like ordinary citizens, in local authority houses. Should that happen they will then, as local authority tenants, be entitled to take advantage of the £5,000 grant. That is not to say that I am not pressing my colleagues to try to extend the scheme to take account of persons in occupation of Army houses. I do not know how successful I will be. It is a scheme which from the point of view of the local authority has had, I am glad to say, a tremendous uptake because it is a most attractive one. I have other ideas in connection with assisting Army personnel to house themselves, which I am at present investigating and which hopefully will come to successful fruition before the end of the year. It will have, if you like, inbuilt attraction for Army people to move out of Army houses and house themselves, or indeed move out of local authority houses as well. Between all of these things hopefully the problem of overholding will gradually diminish and eventually disappear.

Deputy Power raised the question of trespass by itinerants on the Curragh as if it were something that happened only recently. That has been going on since 1982 — I am sure he will recall that since he was Minister for Defence in 1982. I am sure his suggestion that we should deploy the Army to remove these people by physical force was made facetiously because it is not possible; they have to be dealt with according to the law. They have been asked to move by the rangers and the military police. They have failed to do so. We shall now implement the legal powers under the Curragh of Kildare Act to ensure that they are removed because, as Deputy Power rightly pointed out, that particular trespass of that place, because of the presence of race horses and so on, is particularly dangerous and bad and will have to be dealt with.

I should like to see recruitment in times of limited resources to the FCA expanded and a restoration of the fortnight summer camp. It is my experience that members of the FCA are centres of excellence within their communities and I should like to encourage that force. I take the point made by Deputy Browne that priority might be given FCA members when recruitment in the army does reopen. When the suitability of candidates is being assessed obviously a good record and keen service in the FCA will be a factor that the recruiting officers will take into account.

The role of the Defence Forces is a dual one: the defence of the State against external aggression is its primary role and its secondary role is in coming to aid of the civil power. Traditionally it is the secondary role that has come into focus because, happily, we have not had to repel an external aggressor. Our policy of neutrality is one to which I subscribe in spite of the myth being propagated by the far side of the House. I fully subscribe to the joint programme for Government which says that this country shall remain neutral outside military alliances. I subscribe to that. Some time ago I speculated about whether, in the developing European scene, we would be able to maintain a position of total neutrality in military terms. Purely because one speculated on that one was labelled as being anti-neutral. Indeed, I heard Deputy G. Collins from the Opposition benches on radio a couple of weeks ago say that I had advocated that we join NATO. I never advocated any such thing. May I remind Deputies that neutrality 40 years ago, when the war in Europe ended, had been protected by 56,000 men under arms and that neutrality is only by the grace and favour of superpowers if we are not prepared to defend neutrality ourselves. The cost of defending neutrality in terms of equipment for the numbers we would need would amount to approximately £400 million and extra manpower would cost approximately another £40 million annually. These are the costs we should be prepared to face up to if our commitment to neutrality is to be on a par with the other traditionally neutral countries — for example, Sweden or Switzerland.

There are many points that emerged in the course of the debate. I am sorry that I do not have time to go in great detail into a number of points. I re-affirm my commitment to attend Saint Patrick's Cathedral again this year and confirm that the new committee has proposed a new national day of commemoration which, hopefully, will come into operation next year. I thank Deputies for their contributions. The points they have made will be noted and if possible implemented.

Vote put and agreed to.
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