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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 10 Jul 1985

Vol. 360 No. 6

Farm Tax Bill, 1985: Commitee Stage.

SECTION 1.

I move amendment No. 1:

In page 3, subsection (1), lines 12 and 13, to delete the definition of "agriculture" and subsititute the folowing definition:

" `agriculture' means husbandry and includes horticulture, fruit growing, seed growing, dairy farming and livestock breeding and keeping and the use of land as grazing land, meadow land, osier land, market gardens and nursery grounds;".

The purpose of this amendment is to elaborate further on the definition of "agriculture" in order to remove any possible doubts there may be in the future as to the meaning of the term.

This is one of 63 amendments which the Minister submitted in the last three days and some of them, notably those submitted yesterday, are amendments to amendments. In the course of one day we are expected to give proper consideration to very important legislation in respect of which the Minister has submitted 50 other amendments.

Would the Deputy bear with the Chair for a moment? This is a limited debate which must conclude at 7 p.m. The Deputy is making a speech which would have been in order when I asked whether the arrangements for today's Order of Business were agreed. The Chair was told they were agreed without debate and it is not reasonable now to start on that——

I take the Chair's point and we are bound by that order, but we should not convey an impression to the public that we are going to give adequate consideration to this very important legislation today. We would need at least three weeks to discuss all stages in a reasonable way. In my view we will do no service to anyone by taking all the amendments and all stages of this very important Bill in one day. If some people think that is the way we should do our business it it not our view. We like to co-operate on matters of national interest but it will be impossible to co-operate in this case. Even if we give only limited consideration to some matters which will come up for discussion, it is obvious that we will not even get as far as sections 5 or 6. That is not the way to deal with legislation. When we talk later about the intentions of the legislators, let us not try to fool ourselves that the legislators had any opportunity to consider this.

On a point of order, I do not deny Deputy O'Kennedy the opportunity which presents itself to make that point, but the arrangement of business, not just for today or for this Bill but for this week have been agreed between the parties.

That is not a point of order. If the Minister wants to make a point in his contribution, I will allow him to make a passing reference to it, as Deputy O'Kennedy did. I appeal to Members to make the best use of the time unanimously set aside by the House for the disposal of this item.

The Minister's first amendment was circulated on 5 July. In my view he should have given the reasons why this amendment has been introduced. It is not good enough for a Minister to come here and say "I move".

I have given the reasons.

There are major issues involved in this amendment and I propose to deal with them but not at too great a length. This amendment extends the definition of "agriculture". Originally it said that "husbandry and cognate words shall be construed accordingly" but now it reads "husbandry and includes horticulture, fruit growing, seed growing, dairy farming and livestock breeding and keeping and the use of land as grazing land, meadow land, osier land, market gardens and nursery grounds".

The effect of this amendment is that any activities covered within that extended definition will not be liable to tax under section 3 provided they are under 20 adjusted acres. That exposes one of the first anomalies in a Bill which is full of anomalies. This legislation ensures that intensive activity, be it pig breeding, livestock breeding of one form or another or market gardening, nursery gardens and so on, is now an exempted farm unit because it is under 20 adjusted acres. The Minister may say that he will do something about this in the Finance Act of next year but from the beginning of the operation of this legislation all those units, provided that they are under 20 adjusted acres, are now exempted by virtue of this definition. I cannot understand why this amendment has been introduced at the last moment.

This Bill is not just about equity between farmers and the PAYE sector, but also within the farming community. This type of amendment is very unfair to the PAYE sector. Significantly, the Minister now present is not the Minister who introduced this and the amendments are all in the name of the Minister for the Environment. Why is that Minister not here today, when he was dealing with them earlier? If certain activities which can produce very substantial, intense activity leading to a very considerable income are now being exempted, even from the farm tax, what justification can there be for that? It points out the anomaly that exists in the legislation, that once you move into an area of making special rules for special categories, as distinct from applying the same regulations to all to ensure the same fair measure of tax, obviously you get anomalies of this kind which are not only unfair but obviously seriously so. That is the only comment I would make in relation to this first of about 70 amendments introduced by the Minister into his own legislation. If the rest follow the pattern of the first, I am afraid that it is four months that we would need for a debate on this matter, not the five or six hours available to us at this stage.

(Limerick West): I should like to support the case made by Deputy O'Kennedy. It is wrong and unfair, even to the Minister but more particularly to us here on the Opposition benches, to expect us to do justice to this legislation within the time allocated. I appeal to the Minister now to proceed with the completion of this legislation today, in order to give us an opportunity of looking into some aspects of it.

I agree with Deputy O'Kennedy that this legislation is complete nonsense. I shall explain this as we proceed with the debate on the sections. The legislation will not achieve what the Government intend it to achieve, as outlined in Building on Reality: to double the take of income tax from farmers — tax, not income tax, because this is not a tax on income, it is a tax on resources.

On section 1 and the amendment as introduced by the Minister, I would ask him to clarify a situation where a person takes land under the conacre system, that is 11 months letting of land. It appears that the person who owns the land and not the person using it is liable for the land tax.

I would like to interrupt, if I may, to direct the Deputy along the right lines. The point he is making now would probably be quite in order on section 1, but we are dealing now with the definition of agricultural land and that is all that is before the House at the moment.

(Limerick West): But the definition of agriculture, a Cheann Comhairle, is what is concerned in the Minister's amendment. I accept that my argument possibly would properly come under that section. Briefly, a whole new meaning is being given to agriculture. I ask the Minister, particularly at this point, to outline in detail the purpose of the amendment and why it was necessary to elaborate still further on the detailed definition of what agriculture really is and of what is involved. Many of the areas outlined by the Minister would not necessarily come under the definition of agriculture at all. Many of those would, to a certain extent, come under commercial enterprises. They are, of course, allied to agriculture, but in so far as the farm tax aspect is concerned, I do not see where this will arise. Many of the enterprises outlined do not necessarily need land at all. Where is the aspect of tax and how will tax be collected from the people involved in those enterprises? Many are farmyard enterprises and do not need land for their development. Would the Minister outline in detail the thinking behind the introduction of this amendment and explain the changes subsequent on the introduction of the legislation?

Briefly, on the same point as Deputy Noonan made at the end, it is very important that the Minister should explain precisely why this amendment is needed. The original Bill sounds a little crazy —"agriculture means husbandry". If one had husbandry in the Bill, one would put down that definition as "husbandry means agriculture". The whole business of definitions in this area is a little crazy. Why does the Minister then have to expand on the theme?

Deputy O'Kennedy's point seems reasonable but nevertheless it is not, because these items were excluded even before this new definition. Already, any holding under 20 adjusted acres — and that included market gardening or whatever — was excluded and is still excluded.

It was not excluded in the original Bill.

Less than 20 adjusted acres.

It could be caught on income tax normally. That is the point.

Probably, it can still be caught. Could the Minister also explain what horticulture means now? It does not mean fruit growing, or market gardening, or nursery grounds, or seed growing. They are all included separately. So what does horticulture mean? There is a new one on me — osier land. Perhaps the Minister would explain what this means? It has been described to me, but I was amazed at that definition. I would be afraid to mention what I was told it was.

What is the need for, or purpose of this specific list of detailed farming enterprises? Why was it necessary to list them all under agriculture? Possibly some are missing. They just happened to catch osier land, but there may be something they missed and which is not in this definition. Why is it necessary to list these items? Was there pressure to put them in? What was the purpose of listing them?

The purpose of the amendment is to elaborate further on the definition of agriculture as given in the Bill. In the Bill as published it is stated that "agriculture' means husbandry and cognate words shall be construed accordingly". In this amendment we are giving more clarity to the phrase "cognate words shall be construed accordingly". I wish to point out that we followed the original definition, namely, that agriculture means husbandary and we have elaborated on it by saying it includes the series of items we have indicated.

Deputy O'Kennedy seems to think this is unfair in that the effect of this definition — which clarifies the definition rather than extends it — means that somehow we have changed the thrust of the Bill and that we have taken a number of things out of the charge to farm tax. Of course that is not the case. These items would have been covered before but we have made it more clear in the Bill. As the Deputy knows, I have a great passion for clarity in legislation. We have made more clear what is to be covered under the definition of agriculture.

If it is less than 20 adjusted acres it is out.

The Deputy has made his point. If he would like an answer to his question he should listen.

If the Deputy would allow the Minister to continue we would have a more orderly and constructive debate.

The amendment states that "agriculture" means husbandry and it includes other items. It is not necessarily a comprehensive list. Holdings of less than 20 adjusted acres will not be subject to the farm tax. That is the general provision in this Bill.

That is the provision, not the general provision.

Deputy O'Kennedy takes the view that that is unfair. I do not think he is arguing that we should apply the farm tax to holdings of more than 20 adjusted acres——

The Minister should not try to misrepresent me. I said——

It will not lead to an orderly debate to deal with contributions sentence by sentence.

I notice he has not put down any amendment to that effect. Holdings on which these activities are carried out which are less than 20 adjusted acres will not be subject to farm tax.

What about pig rearing stations?

The question of what types of enterprise are involved is a little different. Deputy Noonan indicated that in his view some of the activities listed here are commercial activities. To the extent that some of the activities here are currently treated in a different way from general husbandry for income tax purposes, that position remains unchanged because this Bill does not deal with income tax. It deals only with the application of farm tax. If Deputies feel there is a case for proposing a different kind of income tax treatment for any one of the activities listed here, or for any agricultural activity not specifically listed here, they are free to make the point. However, I suggest it should not be made in the context of this Bill because this deals only with farm tax and it is our intention that farm tax will not apply to holdings of less than 20 adjusted acres.

Deputy Noonan thought that some of the activities listed here are commercial activities that do not need land. I cannot find one activity listed that does not need land. Horticulture needs land——

What about pig breeding stations?

Mr. Noonan

What about livestock?

It does not lend itself to intelligent debate to deal sentence by sentence with the contribution of the Minister or anyone else. On Committee Stage Deputies may speak as often as they like.

Fruit growing and seed growing need land. Dairy farming needs land. In the most commonly accepted terms of the phrase, livestock breeding needs land. Even intensive livestock breeding or activities such as those carried out in the bull performance testing station near my home need land. Obviously the keeping and use of land as grazing land needs land, as does the operation of meadow land. Market gardens and nursery grounds obviously need land. Osier land also requires land. For the benefit of Deputy Mac Giolla, osier land is land on which are grown those species of willow that produce the cane used for basket work. It is not a widely practised culture here but nevertheless we have provided for it because I am informed there is some activity under that heading.

As far as intensive units are concerned, such as intensive pig production units that do not use considerable amounts of farmland, if they do not use 20 adjusted acres or more there is no farm tax but in itself that makes no difference to the way they are treated for income tax purposes. As I pointed out before, this Bill does not make any provisions about income tax. This is to establish a farm tax.

Deputy Mac Giolla asked if I had missed anything in the definitions. I do not think so. While it is not an exhaustive list, it is as comprehensive as it can be at the moment. Since it incorporates the word "includes", clearly it is intended that the list is not an exhaustive one.

What the Minister has said indicates that he does not understand the amendment, much less the legislation introduced by the Minister for the Environment. I will put this bluntly and simply to him: this Bill exempts the activities in agriculture, and the others now included in the amendment, from taxation if they are under 20 adjusted acres.

We are speaking of farm tax.

That is the only tax that can apply to them. Is the Minister now suggesting that, in the case of a conventional agricultural holding under 20 adjusted acres which will be exempt from farm tax, he can catch it under some other heading? Is that the Minister's suggestion? The farmers will be happy to know that apparently exemption does not mean exemption. The Minister is on impossible ground here. Whatever sense it made originally in terms of conventional farmers as far as the exemption for people with less than 20 adjusted acres is concerned, what the Minister is now proposing makes no sense. It demonstrates that this Bill is a nonsense from start to finish.

It is nonsense to extend the definitions to cover situations where there are intensive units of activity which, as Deputy Noonan pointed out, are more commercial than agriculture. I do not say that is wrong; it should be encouraged. We are talking about fair play. Land is required for intensive pig breeding just as some land would be required for a shop. We are talking about fair play. One needs space for anything. The Minister must recognise that the answer he has given is not in any way adequate or satisfactory. We are totally opposed to this controversial but very important legislation. It is legislation that is unfair to the farmers and to the PAYE sector. It would be a monument to our ineffectiveness as legislators for us to put this Bill through today. We could not even begin to discuss all the very important issues involved today and if any other answer from the Minister should be as inaccurate and as unsatisfactory as the last one, we will be making a show of ourselves as legislators.

The Deputy should speak for himself.

This Minister would be the first to have come here and sought all Stages of such important legislation in such a short time. Yesterday we may have created a precedent but a desirable precedent. The Minister saw sense and realised that a nine-section Bill dealing with valuation could not be put through in one day. Consequently, he agreed to leave the Bill over until next session. In the interest of all that is right, I appeal to him to do the same in regard to this Bill because the arguments that held yesterday are even more cogent in this instance.

It is the responsibility of the Chair to ensure that time is not wasted, but time is being wasted now.

I appreciate that the Chair is bound by the order of the House but we are discussing a Bill which contains 28 sections and to which there are about 70 amendments. I am asking the Minister, in the interest of trying to gain some respect for this place, to take the Bill back or at least to allow us continue it next session or even next week if that would suit him. We are demonstrating how ineffective the House is.

The Chair will not allow any further discussion on the time available.

(Limerick West): The Minister spoke strongly a few moments ago about the question of clarity but in a situation where there is a farmyard enterprise but where there is no land as such or where the amount of land is less than 20 adjusted acres, would the person operating the enterprise be subject to income tax in the normal way? Also, in the case of there being a farmyard enterprise on a farm in respect of which the owner, because of the adjusted acreage, was liable to farm tax, would the enterprise be subject to income tax while the farm itself was subject to land tax?

I wish to reinforce the points made by Deputies O'Kennedy and Noonan. From my reading of the national plan and from what the Government have communicated to the farmers it seems to be the intention that farmers with holdings of agricultural land of between 20 and 80 adjusted acres will be liable for farm tax but not for income tax. The Minister seems to be assenting by nodding his head.

The Minister will reply in due course.

Assuming that is the intention, what is to be the position of a person engaged in one of these various activities referred to in the Minister's amendment if the enterprise is being conducted on a holding of, say, 21 adjusted acres? Will that person not be liable for income tax on the profits of the enterprise and be liable only for one fifth of the farm tax if the marginal relief is applied? That seems to be anomalous and can hardly be the Government's intention.

Surely the definition of agricultural activities refers to those activities engaged in in the interest of profit. Otherwise we could have the situation whereby commissioners of Public Works who might be using land in our national parks as grazing land for deer or for other purposes, not as a profit making exercise but for public amenity purposes, would be included in the definition that agriculture means husbandry and using land as grazing land, meadow land and so on. Should we not make it clear that the activities being included are those that are profit making as distinct from activities that are for amenity reasons?

Deputies O'Kennedy, Noonan and O'Dea have raised a number of questions concerning income tax but strictly speaking these questions do not arise on this Bill. However, since people are concerned about the interaction of the two taxes, the position is that in general farmers with holdings of between 20 and 80 adjusted acres will be liable for farm tax only.

Why is the Minister specifying general cases?

Because this will not be the position in every case but I cannot enumerate for the Deputy every individual case.

It is important that the Minister do so.

If the Deputy would listen for a moment he might get the answer he is seeking. The general case in respect of people with more than 80 adjusted acres would be that they would continue to make returns of income for the purpose of income tax and would be liable for farm tax but the amount of farm tax they pay would be allowed as a credit against their income tax liability. That would be the position in the vast majority of cases but Deputies have raised some exceptions to that. In the event of the beneficial occupier of a holding of between 20 and 80 adjusted acres carrying on another enterprise on the land——

Our question was not about any other enterprise.

——which would render him liable to make a return of income for income tax purposes, that will continue unless in a future Finance Bill there is a change in that regard, but any such change would be for reasons that are not connected with this farm tax.

Is the Minister talking about another agricultural enterprise?

Regardless of the type of enterprise, a person in the circumstances I have outlined would be required to make returns in respect of a land using enterprise.

This is nonsense. Another enterprise might be a garage.

A horticulturist, for example, who is now required to make a return of income in respect of his income from horticultural activities will continue to be required to make those returns because the Bill makes no provision in relation to the way we assess people for income tax.

Deputy Mac Giolla asked if we should specify that this farm tax would be payable in cases where the land is being used for profit. The answer is "no". We provide for cases where the land should be used — there would be a liability to farm tax on that land — and in the kinds of cases to which the Deputy has referred there will also be a liability to farm tax, as there was liability in the past for rates.

Is amendment No. 1 agreed?

No, because, like everything else in this Bill, it is a nonsense.

Amendment put and declared carried.
Question proposed: "That section 1, as amended, stand part of the Bill."

This is the section that contains all the definitions. I want to point out that one of the most regular definitions one finds in any tax legislation, in any succession legislation, in any civil liability legislation is a definition of a "dependant". This is one of the most constant features of the definitions sections of all Bills. But there is no definition of "dependant" in section 1 of this Bill for the simple reason — again one of the great injustices of this Bill — that it draws no distinction between the single man with no dependants and the married man with three, four, five or six dependants.

I do not wish to interrupt Deputy O'Kennedy but I am certain that he will find a more appropriate section to make the point he is now making. It is not relevant on this one.

It is relevant only in this sense in that I believe, if I may be allowed to say this at this stage, there should be a definition of a "dependant" here.

A definition would be necessary only — and I hope the Deputy will agree with me — if the word "dependant" was used——

That is right.

——but he can make that point when he comes to the appropriate section.

A Ceann Comhairle, I understand your problem, and we all have the same problem today in view of the time constraint which means we cannot discuss this properly at all. But it is evident to farmers and the PAYE sector—and we should endeavour to get them all on to common ground rather than set them against each other—that we are treating all the same, irrespective of the level of dependency.

Section 9 would be the appropriate section.

Well, unfortunately, we will never get to it.

The Chair meant to convey that, if Deputies spend their time on things that are not dealt with on sections, then we will not get to other sections.

In relation to another anomaly in this Bill, that is the definition of "occupier", the truth of the matter is that this Bill intends to tax the person who is entitled legally to ownership irrespective of whether that person is actually engaged in agricultural activity. That is what this section says in effect. I will not admit that the Minister is best qualified in this House in terms of interpreting legal effect. I think I can say modestly I know an awful lot more and have had an awful lot more experience on it. To put it in general terms, in effect, when one reads through section 1 (a), (b) and (c) of the definition of "occupier", one will find that the purpose in general terms, which the Minister likes to use, is to tax the person entitled to the use of the land even though he may have leased it, he may have an agent working it or have another person physically in possession.

This exposes another anomaly in this Bill. If we want to tax people on the basis of their income are we really going to introduce a nonsense whereby perhaps a disabled wife, or a widow whose husband had been farming fairly profitably, with a young family or whatever and who suddenly finds that she cannot adequately do so, will be treated the same as every other farmer if she leases the place, contracts it or whatever else? That is demonstrably unfair. Any of us who have had any experience of rural life — and the Minister should know a little about it — knows that. We should be arguing that point alone for days. That is what the definition of "occupier" in this section demonstrates. A situation may arise in which the person actually doing the farming would be liable to income tax and, because they have taken a contract or whatever else they are not covered under this provision and they are treated as the person liable to pay. Presumably such a person will have to pay on income. If I take a lease, a conacre letting or whatever from the person legally entitled, I am not liable under the provisions of this Bill — presumably I am but this Bill does not say so — to income tax. Would the Minister please address himself to the point: why in hell's name should one distinguish between the person who is earning his income, having to pay conacre or whatever else from farming and the other person who is farming on the property of which he is the registered owner? That is the distinction being drawn here.

As we go through this all too short a day I will demonstrate to this Minister at every single opportunity all of the anomalies contained in this Bill and the fact that, when it comes to it, he will not get it under way anyway. I repeat my plea: would he please allow us to discuss it properly and say "We will go as far as we can today and we will continue next term."?

(Limerick West): As the Minister and, indeed, the Minister for the Environment have indicated, while the Bill proposes to simplify farm taxation and the whole system of farm tax, I and my party feel that in real terms it will have the opposite effect. It also contains too many definitions. I presume I am in order under this section in making those comments?

(Limerick West): It contains far too many definitions open to very many different interpretations. The Minister's replies to the amendment left much to be desired. He evaded the direct questions I put to him. This Bill discriminates in so far as it levies a tax on farmers based purely on the size of their holdings.

That would arise on another section, Deputy. I do not wish the House to get the impression that I am being particularly pernickety but I have a time problem here and it is my duty to see that time is not wasted.

(Limerick West): Let me pose a direct question to the Minister under this section. I am referring now to section 1 (b) where a person takes land on the conacre system, that is the 11 months letting system. The person who owns the land and not the person using it is liable to the land tax. This means that the owner of the land could very well be doubly taxed as he will be liable to income tax on his rental income. In a similar way the person letting the land and deriving income therefrom would appear to be completely exempt from tax. The Minister might clarify those points.

The provisions of this Bill are open to so many different interpretations it is important that as we progress, even within the limited time at our disposal, we get as many definitions and clarifications as we can.

I might make a few brief points under the definition of "occupier".

Perhaps the Minister would explain when replying, the term "temporary depasturage" in subsection (c). Will the Minister also outline the situation in relation to people who are not owners of the land but who are in temporary occupation and who would have more substantial rights in law than would those operating under the 11-month letting system? In relation to paragraph (b) would the Minister clarify the situation in a case where the person is the occupier of an agricultural landholding and where he is a relative within the meaning of that term in the Finance (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act, 1968, and where the two holdings are not separately managed? Is the effect of this subsection that where there is any connection at all between the relatives who own two separate holdings then each of those persons would be fully liable for farm tax on the combined holdings? Is there any provision for dividing up the farm tax in that situation?

Where there is a holding of substantial size and where both a father and son are farming it and where some of the land is transferred, what is the case in relation to the occupier clause? I noticed that some of the advertisements taken out used the words "for genuine transfers of land". Would a father who had given land to his son before the passing of this Act be accepted as genuine and would someone who decides at a later stage to transfer half of his holdings be considered not to be genuine? This clause is to deal with the question of tax avoidance, but on the other hand successive Government policy was to get land to younger farmers and the stamp duty exemption was an incentive to this end.

I expanded that in my time as Minister. That is what this Minister should be doing.

This Minister has repeatedly endorsed that.

(Interruptions.)

It was Minister Bruton who introduced that, in fairness. My query relates to the splitting of farm holdings between father and son, favoured nephew and uncle and so on. Will that in all circumstances be considered as a split holding and will they be treated as totally separate units? That is very important and needs to be clarified.

Was the advertisement to which the Deputy referred the one issued by Fine Gael which said "Paid for by the taxpayer"?

The Deputy should not interrupt as Deputies have an opportunity to speak more than once.

I just wanted clarification.

That is not the way to get it.

I do not intend to deal with the comments made about dependants, which the Chair ruled out of order. No provision is made in this and there is no requirement for a definition of "dependant".

There is no provision for "dependant".

Because of the way we have constructed the tax and because we take the view that since the tax is based on adjusted acreage it would be inappropriate for a tax of this kind to make changes in the levels of liability according to the number of dependants——

No question of equity?

(Interruptions.)

There is no doubt that that can be raised on another section and it can be dealt with then.

The Minister thinks that is fair?

We will get to the other sections if the Deputies opposite are a little less verbose and make their points a little more concisely.

On a point of order.

On the question of the definition——

I wish to clarify——

If it is to clarify it is not a point of order.

It is not in order.

If the order of this debate is simply to get to the end of the Bill——

That is not a point of order. The Deputy should resume his seat.

——I will sit down and ask nothing. We have asked reasonable questions and there is no point in making those comments when we ask reasonable questions.

If Deputy O'Kennedy wants to use up his time making smart remarks there is nothing I can do to stop him. I will answer the questions raised on the definition section. We have set out here the definition of "occupiers" and we make the point that it is the person who is entitled to the immediate use or enjoyment of the land who is liable for tax. In the vast majority of cases, since Irish farms are occupied by the owners, that means that the situation is perfectly clear. Where the land is leased by the owner to another person other than under conacre it is the other person who is liable for the tax because he has the use and enjoyment of the land.

Other than under conacre?

Under conacre or temporary depasturage or adjustment, which Deputy O'Dea mentioned, which is a term which appears in the Land Acts and which was put in here to make sure that the definition covered all cases, it is the owner of the land who is liable for the tax. In the normal course of events the fact that there is a farm tax liability on the land would be reflected in the price paid for the conacre. The market will sort that out, although there is nothing in the Bill that requires a solution to be adopted except that it makes the owner of the land liable for the farm tax.

There is a provision in relation to land which is the subject of a discretionary trust under which no one in particular has the right of possession. In this case it is the trustees who are liable for the tax.

Subsection (2) of this section is the anti-avoidance provision and the one which is most interesting to Deputy Yates. It is intended to prevent situations in which there would be transfers of land within families or between related companies or connected persons simply to avoid tax. Subsection (2) (a) means that the persons involved, including companies, would be regarded as one person for the purpose of section 4 (3) of the Bill under which the adjusted acreage of the holdings is determined and also would be regarded as one person for the purposes of section 3 (1) under which holdings become taxable farms. Subsection (2) (b) makes an exception in the case where relatives are separately farming a holding and subsection (2) (c) provides that the question as to whether persons are connected is to be decided in accordance with the income tax law, subject to one minor modification. The test is whether the two persons are farming the two farms separately. If they are not farming two farms separately they will be treated as one person and one taxable farm and the liability will be calculated on the basis that they are one person and one farm.

The Minister has not answered the question I put to him. In the example he has referred to is each of the persons he referred to liable for the farm tax on the entire joint holding, if we want to describe it as that?

I have answered that question. I have said that unless there is a case where the two connected persons are farming separately two separate holdings——

Then each is liable for the tax on the full holding?

Unless that is the case the two connected persons will be treated as one person and the two holdings will be treated as one taxable farm so that there is one person liable and one calculation of the liability.

(Limerick West): For clarity, do I take it that the person renting the land and deriving income from it would be exempt from farm tax and income tax?

The lessor of land other than under conacre is not liable for the farm tax. Other than under conacre the person who is liable for farm tax is the one who has taken the lease.

(Limerick West): Under conacre?

The person who owns the land and has let it to another in that situation is not liable for the farm tax. His income tax liability, whatever it is, would be under the Income Tax Acts; it is not affected by this. But he is not liable for the farm tax. The person who has taken the lease and who, therefore, has in the terms of the Bill the immediate use or enjoyment of the land is liable for the farm tax on that land. In the case of conacre the owner of the land who has let the land is the one liable for the farm tax. The person who has taken the land on conacre is not liable for farm tax on that land.

If lawyers do not find a way of driving through that one then the Minister is a very harmless young man.

(Limerick West): Therefore, the owner of the land under the conacre system can be subject both to income tax on the income he receives from the rented land and farm tax.

The owner of the land under conacre is the person liable for the farm tax. That is what is provided for in this Bill. If the owner of land under conacre has an income tax liability arising from the income tax law, that is as may be, it is not our concern in this Bill. If he has not an income tax liability under the provisions of income tax law, that again is as it may be, it is not affected by this Bill, although I am tempted to remark that this year's Finance Act provided a fairly substantial tax relief in order to encourage people to let land not on conacre but on longer term leases, a more progressive approach——

The Minister referred to——

Why did the Deputy not ask the Minister to give us more time? I am sure that what he wants is important.

On the liability for farm tax between 20 and 80 adjusted acres the Minister said that certain people would also be liable for income tax. Would he care to spell out what kind of people he had in mind? He said that some farming enterprises would in the normal way attract income tax liability. Will people in a job and having 25 or 30 adjusted acres be treated in the way they have been treated up to now or will they be liable for farm tax only and then pay income tax on income from their job?

I said that this Bill provides for the charge of a farm tax. People having between 20 and 80 adjusted acres who are involved only in farming would have a liability for farm tax only. However, people who have between 20 and 80 adjusted acres who for whatever reason have an income tax liability will continue to have that income tax liability because nothing in this Bill affects that income tax liability, nor could it because this is not a Bill concerned with income tax. To the extent that people who have a liability for farm tax under this Bill also have a liability for income tax, any regulation of their position is a matter for a Finance Bill. This Bill does not deal with income tax liability.

A future Finance Bill.

(Limerick West): I ask the Minister to clarify subsection (2) (a) which provides:

Subject to paragraph (b) of this subsection a person connected with another person shall be deemed, for the purposes of this Act, to be the same person as that other person.

We are having duplication now.

I thought I had done that.

(Limerick West): No, the Minister spoke about subsection (2) (b) but this is (2) (a).

The question as to persons who are connected with each other is to be decided in accordance with income tax law. That is dealt with in the Finance (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act, 1968. I can read the definition for the Deputy if he wishes, but I am not sure if that is what he wants.

Question put and declared carried.
SECTION 2.

I move amendment No. 2:

In page 5, subsection (2) (a) (iii) (VII), line 40, to delete "natural".

This amendment is being put forward because it would be unrealistic in the context of this section to consider only the natural water supply to land. Deputies know that in most cases land would be supplied either from a group water scheme or from a local authority water scheme and the adequacy of that supply to the land should also be taken into account. This amendment is brought forward to delete "natural" so that we cover all water supplies.

Amendment agreed to.
Question proposed: "That section 2, as amended, stand part of the Bill."

What we are doing in this section will guarantee that we transfer from the primary producers, the farmers, not to Revenue, not by way of sharing a burden which I think they are ready to share with other income tax payers, we are going to transfer to lawyers particularly the fruits of the work of farmers. This section will guarantee a lawyer's bonanza. A Cheann Comhairle, maybe you, I and the rest of us in this House who sometimes practise that profession will find a great incentive to leave political activity and get back to the bonanza that is going to arise for all lawyers as a consequence of this.

First of all, the Chair should not be introduced into it, but now that he has let me make it clear that I severed all my connection with the legal profession in 1973, have not practised since and, if it is of any interest, I do not intend to resume.

I think the temptation would be almost irresistible, and——

You are able to resist the temptation.

——let me explain why. This Bill develops the concept of the adjusted acre. I will try to summarise it. The Bill provides that it is "any area of agricultural land ... the estimated capacity of which for agricultural production is equivalent to the capacity for such production of one acre of land capable of the estimated highest such production in the State ...". That is the first area of doubt in determining the adjusted acre. The explanatory memorandum does a better job even. It says: "provides that an adjusted acre is an area of land with the equivalent productive potential of one acre of the best land in the State ...". Will someone please define with total confidence what in hell's blazes that means? What lawyer will not be able to point out that the one acre of land was adjusted not in relation to the best land in the State but in relation to anything but the best? There will be a million ways of getting across that point.

The second area of doubt arises in regard to the phrase "capable of the estimated highest such production". The land is deemed to be capable of the highest such production based on an estimate, not the realised highest production in this notional acre of Tír na nÓg, wherever it is. Before the first-year barrister even considers the rest of it he is already into money, a lawyer's bonanza. If there is money to be made out of farming, the place to go now is into the Law Library of the Incorporated Law Society. Why is this so? The reason is to be found in subsection (2) which states that in estimating the capacity for argicultural production of land in any place regard shall be had to a whole range of factors which must be considered in determining the adjusted acreage. Under this notional nonsense every acre will have to be adjusted taking into account each of these factors.

The first of these factors is the range of uses to which the land can be put for the purposes of agricultural production. There was a time when people might have thought that the Minister had some association with agriculture but obviously this provision is capable of a multiplicity of interpretations. In a mixed farming area the land could be put ot dairying use or could be used for fattening stores. There could be intense tillage activity or it could be used for mixed farming or sheep farming. Which of these uses will determine the adjusted acreage? The second point relates to the adequacy of the means of access to the land. I accept that this is a very important point and is a reasonable criterion in determining the value of any land.

Subsection (2) (a) (iii) refers to a following list of factors and any other natural phenomena affecting the capacity of the land for agricultural production. The first factor on the list is the nature and qualify of the soil. This implies that the nature and quality are different, one from the other. I presume that the adjuster — or "the adjuster man" as he will come to be known if this proposal is ever implemented — will have to give evidence as to the exact nature of the soil. He will be asked to give detailed evidence as to the ingredients of the soil. This will have to be done on every farm, according to this Bill. The qualify must also be assessed. I am not too divorced from farming but some of my colleagues here are engaged in it. I am only related to those who are engaged in farming. The provision in regard to the nature and qualify of the soil will make a nonsense of this legislation.

The next factor to be considered is the location and climate of the place. Is the Minister serious? Who will give evidence on the climate and the difference between Donegal, Kerry and Armagh? For once the people in Armagh will be glad to be excluded. The Six Counties will be very happy to be excluded from this kind of nonsense. Some farmers will say the climate is bad in Donegal or good in Wexford but that is not evidence.

The next factor is whether the land is flat or sloping and, if it is sloping, the adjuster will have to measure the direction and degree of the slope. Does the Minister not recognise that this is getting into cloud cuckooland?

The next condition that must be taken into account is whether the land is sheltered. Let us assume we all know what "shelter" means but the legal definition will give rise to delays and expense. In our part of the country when a young man marries a fairly old woman it will be said that he only went in there for shelter. The adjuster must also consider whether the land is overlooked by hills or mountains. I do not know what is intended to be conveyed by this phrase. Some of the best land in Tipperary, my home place, is overlooked by hills and mountains. The lads around Clonoulty and Boherlahan will be making a strong case to the Minister that the Galtees are looking down on them and asking if that means they are to be adjusted at a lower level.

The subsection goes on to deal with the structure of the agricultural land holding of which the land forms part and then the natural drainage of the land. How qualified will these adjusters be to determine on a casual visit the exact extent of the natural drainage, most of which is underground?

The adequacy of the water supply to the land must also be considered. The Minister has decided to delete the word "natural". If a farmer is inventive and efficient enough to provide a better water supply to his farm holding he will be effectively penalised under this legislation. He is penalised anyway for any kind of productive activity. It then goes on to talk about the accessibility of the land and justice is not being done to its importance.

To get an accurate figure of the adjusted acre we must refer to subsection (2) (b) which says:

It shall be assumed that the land has been, is being and will continue to be, farmed, and that the land and the business of farming the land, has been, is being, and will continue to be, managed reasonably and reasonably efficiently,...

The section goes on to mention the nature and amount of investment in land and the kind of investment we are talking about to get the standard notional, dreamland adjusted acre. The section guarantees that this Bill will never get off the ground until it is brought to every court in the land. When introducing this legislation the Minister for the Environment said:

The classification of land will take some years to complete and will, as I mentioned earlier, commence with the bigger farms and work downwards. The tax will commence in 1986 and will be levied on the larger farms initially. The Bill facilitates this. The effect will be that if, for example, by 1987 the classification has progressed down to, say, 40 adjusted acres, the threshold for liability to the tax in that year will be prescribed by the Minister for Finance at 40 adjusted acres.

It is time, therefore, that the Minister told the PAYE sector that the threshold for liability might not be 20 adjusted acres for the first, second or third year. My guess is that if the Government get 60 adjusted acres in the first year, they will be doing exceptionally well because the farmers, as is their right and obligation, will test the adjusted acreage determination on the basis of the legislation. Perhaps the Minister will tell us that we do not have to abide by the obligations in the Bill and that the valuation adjuster will merely have to drop out to Ballycahill, cast an eye over the ditch, ask about cattle and tillage and work out the acreage without delving too deeply into the farmer's affairs. This tax is based on nonsense and they will be waving flags and banners in honour of the Minister for Finance or the Minister for the Environment down at the Four Courts if this Bill goes through. However, the farmers will have a different opinion.

(Limerick West): Section 2 will probably be found to be unconstitutional. The Minister's definition of an adjusted acre is based on its estimated capacity. As Deputy O'Kennedy correctly pointed out, many factors must be taken into consideration when arriving at an adjusted acre for each holding and it seems to be an impossible task to value all holdings to the satisfaction of all parties concerned. Far from simplifying the farm taxation system, this will give rise to numerous appeals. Subsection (2) (b) states:

it shall be assumed that the land has been, is being and will continue to be, farmed ... managed reasonably and reasonably efficiently ...

These definitions will give rise to controversy. The Commission on Taxation said that it would take up to 15 years to complete a proper survey on which to base valuations. In The Irish Times of 12 June 1968 the Taoiseach — Deputy FitzGerald, as he then was — said that the study of Irish agricultural land made it quite clear that the Griffith Poor Law Valuation was completely unsuitable as a basis for taxation today and that if rates on agricultural land were to be maintained, it would be necessary to organise a review of valuations based on a programme of preparation of soil maps and crop productivity which was not being undertaken at that time.

Rates on agricultural land were found to be unconstitutional but the Government and the Minister now persist in bringing in a land tax Bill to which he refers as a farm tax Bill but which, to all intents and purposes, is merely agricultural rates under a new guise. I have no doubt that this will also be found to be unconstitutional as a vehicle for collecting tax from farmers. There is no simple way whereby the hundred or so people who are now redeployed from the Land Commission and the other hundred land tax adjusters who are being recruited by the Government can adequately survey every farm of 20 acres or more. The Taòiseach said that in 1968 and the chairman of the Commission on Taxation made a similar statement.

The Taoiseach did not say that. The Deputy is misquoting him.

(Limerick West): There is no simple way to do this. According to statistics compiled by An Foras Talúntais approximately 154,000 farms will have to be visited, surveyed and assessed. The Minister for the Environment gave a commitment that every farm would be visited and I hope that takes place. I understand that the adjusters will be allotted 770 farms and even if they work without stop every day for a number of years they will not have completed their task. The survey will not be properly done by the time the tax is due to be levied. The new farm tax commissioner and the staff will, in my view be given the power to classify and list farms even if the staff have not examined and adjusted them.

We must also realise that there is no scientific basis for deciding what constitutes the value or production capacity of land. For that reason this section will fall down badly. There is no way one can decide what constitutes an acre of land except by scientific means, the only method that will stand up in law.

The Deputy has just said the opposite.

(Limerick West): Yet the Minister is sending adjusters into the field to make such a decision without a scientific base. Their personal opinions will decide the level of adjustment. The appeals system will, undoubtedly, be snowed under with cases. Our courts are likely to be kept very busy arising out of this incredible legislation.

It is worth repeating what the Minister for Finance said in the course of a statement on 17 May 1983:

If farmers were allowed the option of a system under which taxable incomes would be based on standard results, the more profitable farmers would be systematically undertaxed while the less profitable would have to keep accounts to avoid excessive income tax charges. In any event a notional system of taxation for farmers would be inconsistent with the objective of treating all taxpayers on an equal basis.

In that statement the Minister has put forward my argument. In the 1983 budget the Minister said that the public perception of tax equity demands that all income earners should be liable to tax on an equal footing. However, the Minister is treating one section of the community differently from another. He is proposing to tax farmers on an adjusted acre not taking into account their capacity to pay, their domestic problems, borrowings and other considerations. It is hard to understand why he made a statement to the effect that the public perception of tax equity demanded that all income earners should be liable to tax on an equal footing.

The new tax will not take into consideration the capacity of the land involved to produce. The Minister may argue that the tax on adjusted acres will allow farmers increase production but we must realise that quotas exist in all areas of agriculture. Increased production, therefore, does not arise. The term "adjusted acre" is wide open to many interpretations and I have no doubt lawyers will have a field day in the courts over this. The PLV system was declared unconstitutional and I have no doubt that the new tax will be held to be unconstitutional as a vehicle for taxing farmers.

I am calling on Deputy Dowling now and I will call Deputy Jimmy Leonard next.

I had offered earlier.

Acting Chairman

It is customary to go to the other side of the House to maintain balance.

I know that Deputies opposite are anxious to make a positive contribution to the debate. Adjusted acreage is not a new concept in farming. It has been used successfully by the Land Commission over a period of time and there were few problems in relation to the consideration they put on adjusted acreage when disposing of allotments of land to farmers. That is not to say that I am happy about what may arise in relation to the adjusting of acreage. I do not like referring to this form of taxation as a resource tax, which I hope it is not, and I do not want any Member to think that it is anything other than a tax on the potential productivity of land. I believe the figure of £10 per acre to be reasonable. If the adjustment is carried out fairly and well it will alleviate a lot of the concern of the IFA, the ICMSA and Macra na Feirme.

It is natural that people will be concerned about paying tax but for the Opposition spokesman to suggest that the Taoiseach was opposed to the adjusted acreage concept is misleading and misrepresents what he said in 1968. He found fault with the Griffith Poor Law Valuation system. If the concept of adjusted acreage had been moved forward prior to 1979 a case might never have been put through the courts by the IFA. There was an inequitable valuation on land that dated from the last century. Some highly valued land was adjacent to river beds and so on while good quality land had a lower valuation. Consequently a level of unfair taxation was levied. In view of the Minister's assurances about the method by which the acreage will be adjusted, I hope it will not be an armchair adjusting of acreage, as has been suggested. I am confident that each farm will be visited not only by one or two members of the Land Commission or by members of the ACOT service, but by others who will go there if there is a dispute arising from the level of adjustment.

In my view, the majority of farmers are fair minded people and will accept what is a fair adjusting of the acreage. Of that I have no doubt from my discussions with them, but difficulties may arise if there is opposition to inspectors going on to farms. The Opposition should realise that to support that type of move would be to their disadvantage. It would be a good move to ensure that there is equity in the farming area vis-a-vis what land can produce. Even after extensive scientific studies have been carried out, we still might not arrive at a fair system. Account should be taken of land which has been well managed, improved from a drainage point of view and reclaimed because many farms have been greatly improved over the last ten, 15 or 20 more years. It takes a great deal of good husbandry and a greater input of fertilisation to maintain the fertility of soil and that, too, must be taken into account when acreage is being adjusted.

Many other points have been made in the Bill and I agree with all of them but hopefully at the end of the day there will be little room for disagreement, concern or disputes. If disputes do arise, a farmer can have redress under this Bill to ensure that fair play is done, and is seen to be done. This is the basis on which this type of taxation will be successful, but unless the acreage is adjusted fairly, and is seen to be adjusted fairly, I cannot say with confidence that it will work.

Acting Chairman

I am calling Deputy Leonard.

I offered before Deputy Leonard came into the House.

Acting Chairman

I was told Deputy Leonard offered but if he yields to you, that is all right with me.

I am worried about the adjusted acres. The previous speaker said there had been adjustments by the Land Commission but I could not agree with him when he said there had been agreement between the inspectors and the farmers. I know of many cases where the agricultural advisers took issue with the farm inspectors. I was involved in a co-operative for many years and I was talking to a man a few weeks ago who told me how dissatisfied he was with the system of adjusted acres which was in operation at that time, when all that was involved was giving a man additional acres to bring his holding up to 45 acres and when land was not held as highly as it is today.

If we do not have a soil survey, which will not be carried out in some counties for some years to come, we will be depending on a visual examination of the soil. Much will depend on the time of year the inspectors visits the farm. During the spring farms look very good and the land is in very good shape, but I am afraid there could be reclassification of land on a continuing basis depending on how the land was worked, fertilised, sprayed and so on. For instance, an inspector could go on to a farm with very bad soil but if it was well sprayed with a good nitrogen dressing it could look good.

Mention was made of the location and climate of the farm. Let us take the example of a farm with a very bad lane leading to it. If the local authority carry out a local improvement scheme on that lane-way, the farm will be easily accessible. Will it then be reclassified? If a group water scheme provided drinking water for the animals, would the farm be reclassified? If the western drainage scheme was reintroduced and the land was drained, would there be a reclassification of the farm? I can see real problems arising because many different aspects are not being taken into consideration which would need to be considered if an equitable survey is to be carried out.

Many respected agricultural commentators have made the point that even if we can arrive at this magical concept of an adjusted acre there is an inherent inequity built into this legislation in that the yield per adjusted acre will vary depending on the type of farming enterprise being carried on. For instance, a person involved in dairying will have a different yield per adjusted acre from a person involved in dry stock who, in turn, will have a different yield than a person involved in sheep farming. Even if this legislation worked — and I am convinced it will not — it is subject to this inherent inequity. I have heard no explanation from the Government benches why they are so persistently trying to implement legislation which has built into it this inherent inequity.

My experience of the law might not be as extensive as that of Deputy O'Kennedy, but I have some experience and I can say without exception that I have never read a more ridiculous piece of legal gobbledegook than section 2 which proposes to set out the definition of an adjusted acre. Let me read it slowly for the benefit of the Minister.

For the benefit of the Minister I shall read slowly section 2 (1), paraphrasing it to some extent.

In this Act ... "adjusted acre" means any area of agricultural land (whether equal to or greater than one acre) the estimated capacity of which for agricultural production is equivalent to the capacity for such production of one acre of land capable of the estimated highest such production in the State....

I have never read a greater piece of arrant nonsense than that definition and what follows it in section 2.

We are going to send out, as mentioned by the Minister for the Environment on the last day, I think 200 adjusters into our highways and byways to adjust every acre in accordance with this definition. Looking at this legislation and without having any consultation with the Land Commission or the Department of Agriculture, it appears that those adjusters will have to be men of very superior abilities in various fields of endeavour. For example, they will have to make decisions on the nature and quality of the soil, so they will need some experience and expertise in that field. They will have to determine the relevance of the local climate, so they will need expertise in the meteorological area. They will have to determine, if the land is sloping, the degree of slope so they will need some engineering expertise, presumably. They will have to determine the capacity or incapacity, as the case may be, of the land to support farm machinery. I do not know exactly what that means.

The Deputy should go and ask any farmer.

I do not know if the draftsmen of the legislation know what it means. I am convinced that the Minister does not know. Those unfortunate adjusters who have to go out, as Deputy Noonan said, to approximately 160,000 farms will have to make reasoned decisions which, as Deputy O'Kennedy has said, will have to stand up to vigorous cross-examination in the courts on those various miscellaneous matters.

One thing which is not clear from the legislation is the relevance of each of those matters to the question of the number of adjusted acres which a person has. For instance, what will the relevance be of the local prevailing climatic conditions? What is the relevance of the land being sheltered?

Ask the farmer.

The farmer is not getting a chance to have an answer.

Do we mean shelter by trees, or by buildings?

Ask the farmer.

What does paragraph (5) mean — the structure of the agricultural land holding of which the land forms part?

Ask the farmer.

(Interruptions.)

Deputy Dowling may be worried about his seat because of the results of the local election but I did not interrupt him and I would ask him to afford me the same courtesy. That is the least we can expect from Fine Gael.

A Ceann Comhairle, I want to ask the Minister is he advocating getting a farmer in to reply to these queries?

My goodness, we are being very punctilious today.

When I get some order from the Minister I shall continue. Another matter not immediately evident from the legislation is the degree to which each of those criteria is going to determine how many adjusted acreas an individual has. For example, are we going to do as was done in the old essay competitions, mark them out of 20 or ten or five? Will we give 20 marks out of 100 for the nature and quality of the soil and judge each farm in accordance with that? Will we give only five out of 100 for the degree of slope of the land? How exactly will this be done and what degree of relevance will each of those criteria have? The unreality of this is seen in that even in the definition of the term "adjusted acre" assumptions have to be imported into the legislation.

That is right.

Section 2 (b) states that "it shall be assumed that the land has been, is being and will continue to be, farmed, and the business of farming the land, has been, is being and will continue to be, managed reasonably"— whatever that means —"and reasonably efficiently". Not only have we to determine the quality of land, climate, slope and so on but we also have to import assumptions into the definition which each adjuster must have at the forefront of his mind in determining all the criteria.

In paragraph (c) of the definition we have the following gem: "if investment in the land is at a level that is higher than a reasonable level for land generally...". What is a reasonable investment of land generally? Surely that is entirely subjective? The totally nonsensical nature of this concept is illustrated when we must impose objective criteria on matters which are by definition totally subjective.

Did the Deputy ever see a subjective drain? He would not know what it looked like.

We are obviously getting to the Minister now. He cannot wait his turn. The Minister for the Environment stated on Second Stage that he was facing up honestly to the problem, not backing away from it. The only honest approach is to withdraw this nonsense now.

Hear, hear.

If the Minister does not withdraw it and it goes through this House we will be the laughing stock of the civilised world and parts of the world that are not too civilised will be able to laugh at us as well. I would commend that honest approach to the Minister because I cannot make head or tail of this definition and the farmers will not be able to, either. As Deputy O'Kennedy has pointed out, the lawyers will have a field day trying to make some sense of it, but at the end of the day it will prove basically unworkable.

I would like to endorse many of the comments my colleagues have made in the course of this debate so far. It is impossible to decipher from the proposed legislation exactly what is an adjusted acre. This tax is totally unfair, discriminatory and inequitable. It takes no account of farming patterns, of a farmer's financial situation, of his responsibility to his family and of his many commitments. Above all, this legislation fails to recognise that farmers are the biggest indirect tax payers in the country. As high consumers, they pay a large amount of indirect taxation through VAT and other systems and this is not recognised at all in this Bill. The contribution that farmers have made to the Exchequer through indirect taxation over the years has not been recognised, even by commentators.

Would you advise him, Michael?

As a farmer myself and involved in agriculture, I do not need any advice.

Hear, hear.

I happen to have qualifications, I modestly want to say, and am in a position to value land. I understand the qualities and productivity capabilities of land. The main bone of contention here is the adjusted acre. Other speakers particularly Deputy Dowling, have spoken about this. Over the years we have had two systems of adjusted acreage operating here, much to the dissatisfaction of farmers. We have had the Land Commission adjusting the land downwards. We must say, in fairness to them, that they did their best for the small farmers. That opportunity will not be available to them any more because this Government have decided not to acquire any more land or to allow the Land Commission to function in the traditional way. To make up for the shortfall in rate revenue, we now have this land to create jobs for Land Commission staff who would have had to be made redundant and for the rate collectors throughout the country. There is no doubt about it, this land tax is rates by a back door method. The Government should admit that.

The Land Commission have always tried to bring the small farmers up to a minimum 45 acres. They have taken account of fragmented holdings and location of land and have always been reasonably generous in their approach to farmers. On the other side of the coin, we have ACOT and the advisory services adjusting land upwards in order to bring farmers into a certain category for grant purposes and if at all possible up to developmental level. The advisory services operated basically on the stocking rates of the land and often they did not take into account the amount of rented land that a farmer was using. They took the number of stock in his herd put that against the number of bona fide acres that he owned and adjusted the acreage based on the stocking rates and put the farmers into a separate category.

Neither of those two systems has been satisfactory or conclusive. Both are vague methods of adjusting land acreage. Here we have something that is totally vague in deciding on a farmer's liability for land tax. Section 2 (2) states that regard shall be had to the range of uses to which land can be put for the purposes of agricultural production. That is totally unfair because no account is taken of the farming pattern, of the traditional farming system that operates on a farm. That system may have been operating for generations. A young farmer inheriting the farm may have no option other than to carry on the traditional farming system he inherited because he has not the financial capability or capacity to change to other farming patterns. How can it be fair or equitable to decide on adjusted acreage under that system?

Section 2 (2) (a) (ii) refers to the adequacy of the means of access to the land. I am very worried about this provision. There can be good land on the side of a main primary road. Will that be adjusted on the basis that it could be for development purposes or that it might have development potential?

Will it be considered on the basis that access is easy because it is in a prime location?

It may be that the farmer lives miles away from the land and it may cost him a considerable amount to farm that land. I do not think the Minister can give a simple yes and no answer to these questions. The people doing the adjustment will be guided by the criteria that will be laid down if this Bill is passed. They will have to assess the land on those criteria.

Section 2 (2) (a) (iii) states:

the following, and other natural phenomena affecting the capacity of the land for agricultural production:

This is very vague. It gives very considerable latitude to a person examining land and deciding its potential. The best land in the country will look fertile and green in June or July but when the soil is turned over it will be found to be totally different from land one mile down the road. There are two types of land in farming terminology: there is cold land which is slow to grow and to produce and which may hold grass later into the winter; there is warm land and if the climate is right it can produce grass and other crops. The fact is that rainfall levels and climate vary from area to area. The western seaboard, from Donegal to Kerry, and into the midlands is affected by severe rainfall at various times throughout the year. We must compare year by year because at the end of the day it is the amount of money in the farmer's pocket that determines whether he will survive, that determines his standard of living and the input he will be able to make in farm production in the following year. We have had a bad summer this year and the growing season has been slow. What account will be taken of that if a farmer suffers a loss at the end of the year, as will happen in many cases? This tax is unfair and it falls down on several aspects.

Section 2 refers also to the nature and quality of the soil. Will the Minister tell us if soil sampling will be carried out on every farm? That work will have to be done. If we are to take into account the nature and quality of the soil, the various soil types will have to be examined on each farm. I am a farmer, I am the son of a farmer, and I have been involved in agriculture for most of my life. I know that a distance of 20 yards can separate two different types of land structure. The capacity of land can change enormously in a very short distance. Therefore, it would be totally unfair to have a certain type of system operating for a townland, for a county or for an area without taking due account of the soil quality in each place. The section also speaks about the location and climate of the place. Will the rainfall levels be taken into account?

On each farm.

The section also states that regard shall be had to whether the land is flat or sloping and, if it is sloping, the direction and the degree of the slope. It is obvious in that kind of land structure that tillage will be out. If the topography of the area is such that it does not lend itself to tillage production, as is the case in most of the land in the west of Ireland, will that fact be taken into account? What criteria will be used in assessing the capability of that kind of land to produce crops?

The section also speaks about whether the land is sheltered and whether it is overlooked by hills or mountains. Here we have to consider land that may be surrounded by State forests. It is possible to get good patches of land surrounded on three sides by a State forest. It may be possible to have meadow land there but it may not be possible to save that meadow; it may be possible to grow corn but it may not be possible to harvest it. Yet, on a certain day in the year that land may look perfect. Where is the equity in assessing sucy land for farm tax?

The section also refers to the natural drainage of the land and any arterial, local or other drainage affecting it. In the Dunkellin river basin in County Galway there are 114,000 acres of land flooded for six months of the year. Yet, on a July day along the river bank the land could look beautiful. What account will be taken of that situation? What criteria will be used to decide in that case? As I have pointed out, it depends on the time of the year when the assessment is carried out.

As far as I am concerned these proposals are totally inequitable, unfair and take no account of the ability of a farmer to meet his commitments, financial and otherwise, to his family. They take no account of the capital investment needed for a farmer to make a viable living from farming. They take no account of a farmer's indirect contribution to the Exchequer through the tax he pays indirectly on goods he purchases. They take no account of the farm family situation and of the voluntary, selfless and dedicated efforts of a farmer and members of his family. In the interests of the economy and of the country, I ask the Minister to withdraw the Bill. Otherwise agricultural development will be curtailed.

Will the Minister confirm that before any farm unit is adjusted a visit will be made, that there will be an inspection physically by the adjuster and that regard will be had to all the matters set out here? Secondly, what seems to be regarded as an advantage in paragraph (ii) of subsection (2) (a), that is, the adequacy of the means of access to land, is now perceived in many areas to be a disadvantage. Only this morning I heard a representative of the IFA say on radio, but not in relation to this Bill, that the dairy yield from stock is much less when the stock are near a busy main road than is the case when they are in pastures far removed from the road. Apparently the decreased yields result from various factors such as dumping and the interruption of the normal habits of the stock. Sometimes this is reflected in a 10 to 20 per cent reduction in yields. If it emerges that access is a disadvantage rather than an advantage, will that factor be taken into account in adjusting the acreage downwards?

(Limerick West): I am pleased that Deputy Dowling has remained in the House because he has a very conscientious interest in this legislation. I know he is not in favour of it but he must go along with his party in regard to it. However, lest the Deputy should have got the impression that I was misquoting his leader, I wish to quote from Magill magazine of July 1979.

I would not necessarily regard Magill as accurate.

(Limerick West): The article refers to the Taoiseach having proposed a 12 per cent levy on farm sales in the mid-seventies. In his interview with the magazine, the Taoiseach said in that regard:

This was merely an option I proposed at the time. The idea was that if we were able to raise about £120 million through this means we would be able to revalue the Irish pound upwards against sterling by about 5 per cent and greatly reduce the element of imported inflation in our general inflation rate. We would have been able to lower income tax, increase food subsidies and eliminate rates on private homes and agricultural holdings.

He continued:

However, I was convinced that the inequities to which such a levy would give rise would offset the benefits that would accrue and therefore the proposal was rejected in favour of a straightforward tax on farmers.

The question was then put directly to the Taoiseach as to what form of farmer taxation he favoured at that stage. His reply was:

Farming should be taxed on the basis of accounts, on the same basis as any other business.

While speaking to a motion in this House on 9 December 1980, the Taoiseach said, as reported at column 741 of the Official Report:

The rates system takes no account of family circumstances, so a farmer with ten children pays as much as a single farmer. It is not related to the capacity to pay and as a form of taxation in that respect is unjust.

I have already quoted statements made by the Minister for Finance in this regard. Therefore, I am asking why there is this change of heart at this time. Is it because the pressure is being applied by the Labour Party who are not present for this debate.

They do not come in anyway.

(Limerick West): I am aware that Deputy Dowling does not accept the concept of an adjusted acre and in the light of statements made previously by the Minister for Finance, he does not accept it either. I am basing that assertion on statements he made both as spokesman for his party on agriculture and also after becoming Minister for Finance. He has stated that this type of tax is not equitable.

In an advertisement placed in the Irish Independent on June 19 by the IFA, an organisation that the Minister is not unfamiliar with, having spent some of his early years with them, though it is regrettable that he did not bring with him to his present position some of the good aspects of that organisation——

I decided that they need them more than I need them.

It would pay them to have the Minister back. They might even subsidise him at this point in order to have him out of here.

(Limerick West): In that advertisement, the IFA say that the Government's statement is an acceptance that ability to pay, family circumstances, borrowings, type of farm enterprise or profitability will not be taken into account and that the capacity to earn is unknown in the Irish tax code or in the tax codes of Europe or of any part of the free world.

That sums it up. The Minister should withdraw the Bill.

Undoubtedly the procedure of trying to devise a proper definition of an adjusted acre is a difficult one. A reasonable effort is being made in this Bill to arrive at such a definition and, consequently, at some proper method of assessing an adjusted acre.

A number of people, myself included, have reservations about a land tax but we are now at the point where everybody here as well as those in the farming organisations who have taken an interest in this Bill, have the responsibility of trying to ensure that whatever form the Bill takes finally, will be the best and fairest possible. Therefore, we must endeavour to define as best we can an adjusted acre. Deputy O'Dea has described for us how he regards this section but I would not agree with him in that respect. Common sense must be applied in the enacting of any legislation.

Where is the common sense in this instance?

This section represents an effort to set out guidelines for valuers or any other officials who may be involved in trying to determine adjusted acres. It is our duty to ensure that the best possible guidelines are arrived at before the Bill is concluded.

There will not be time for that.

The day is quite long yet.

The deadline for this Bill is 7 p.m.

We have had two and a half hours of waffle and repetition from the other side of the House.

There will be problems in regard to determination and assessment in some areas. For instance, in parts of Laois and Offaly there are vast acreages of land which look very well, especially at this time of the year, but the problem is that they are flooded on a regular basis, especially those areas along the Shannon. In west and south Offaly these lands are flooded regularly for five to eight months of the year. There is also quite an amount of land adjacent to bogs, marginal land, about which there will also be a problem in arriving at an adjusted acreage. The same will apply to land way down the country where one must travel down bad roads to gain access.

According to one of the major farming organisations, they intend putting some of these points to the test in court at a later stage. There may be points of law raised in relation to this section. It is the constitutional right of any person who feels aggrieved by the provisions of any Act to test such points in court if they wish.

And they will.

There is a great reservoir of common sense among the farming community and the auctioneers who will value such land. I would hope that such a reservoir of common sense would be found within the Department of Finance and officials of the farm tax office in arriving at agreement on adjusted acreage. Everybody has spoken about the necessity of having 160,000 farms visited.

In the case of a large number of such farms, over 20 adjusted acres, I would hope that an adjustor from the farm tax office will be able to visit a farm and reach agreement on an appropriate adjusted acreage. I have discussed this issue continuously with members of different farming organisations since it was first mooted. Quite a number of farmers with whom I discussed the matter are able to tell one what acreage they have. Quite a number are in a position to give a rough estimate of their adjusted acreage. Granted there will be a margin involved and an assessor might adjust that upwards.

Many people have drawn comparisons between this farm tax and the old rating system. The old rating system has been proved to be unconstitutional. At least on this occasion, when an adjusted acreage has been arrived at a farmer has a right of appeal, he can have it reassessed and so on——

What about the poor man who cannot afford an appeal?

The poor man who cannot afford an appeal must pay an accountant at present.

Not necessarily so.

This tax is different from the old rating system because people will be afforded a proper opportunity of having their farms visited and examined. Quite a number of people in my constituency whose lands have been continuously flooded will be able to demonstrate to officials the poor quality of that land.

I am pleased that the ICMSA met the Government, when, I am sure, the question of adjusted acreage was discussed at considerable length. As somebody who has at all times had excellent relations with the IFA, I am disappointed that there has not been a further meeting with the Government. I think their last meeting with the Government in regard to this matter was on 7 January last. The present Government have always maintained good, cordial relations and a good working relationship with the IFA. Even at this late stage I appeal to the senior personnel of the IFA to discuss this legislation. After all legislation is all about discussion regardless of which Government may be in power. The vast majority of the leadership of the IFA are reasonable people and there should be discussion about this legislation——

What about us?

I am not sure how many people are represented by each of the different farming organisations but they represent the vast majority of farmers throughout the length and breadth of the country. With regard to the question of adjusted acreage, the IFA should have had a greater input than has been the case to date. I have outlined my reservations about this publicly and privately on many occasions. Everybody has a duty to ensure that the best possible legislation is passed by this House, goes to the Seanad and is eventually signed by the President. Any organisation representing a group, such as the IFA, who do not closely involve themselves in the democratic process of advancing their viewpoints to the Government, ascertaining whether amendments can be effected suitable to all sides, are not fulfilling their democratic duty. This is of importance and the Taoiseach has said that he would be willing to meet any organisation that came to him to discuss this issue, that the Government are happy and willing to meet the IFA.

I think Deputy N. Treacy is an auctioneer by profession. He mentioned points about accessibility to land and so on, as outlined in this section. But two auctioneers will not agree about the adjusted acreage of any farm. For example, there will be different prices advanced when such land is being valued, they may employ different methods of assessment and so on.

Not always true.

I accept that there may be occasions on which they will agree. But these will be the guidelines within which people will work.

(Limerick West): The Deputy is saying that there may be different assessments and he feels that that is acceptable.

They will be working within these guidelines. I would hope that any farmer not satisfied with an assessment will enter into further discussions, lodge an appeal and so on. Many difficulties will arise in the early stages of the administration of this tax. Any farmer with land under 20 adjusted acres will be happy with the provisions of this Bill and quite a sizeable number will be involved. With regard to farmers under 80 adjusted acres there are safeguards in hardship cases which means that the imposition of this tax can be at least as economical for such a farmer as it is for them at present to pay accountants to prepare their accounts and so on. This section will have to be looked at so that we take sufficient account of poor quality land, so that there are sufficient extensions given and sufficient allowances for land that floods and for hedges, ditches and so on.

In the 1850s the Griffith valuation system was probably the best that could be achieved at the time. It was probably the fairest system at the time. From what we have heard in this debate this will probably be called the Dukes valuation system. We are setting down guidelines as to how adjusted acreages are to be arrived at. Farmers will be very concerned to make sure that they are listed as having the lowest possible adjusted acreage, so I envisage the appeals system being inundated. The poor law valuation system lasted for over 100 years and over the last 40 or 50 years people's entitlement to various benefits, grants, etc., as well as their entitlement to pay rates, has been based on that system.

We could not blame any farmer trying to get the best out of the system because this system might last for another 100 years. It will be a long time before a lot of the land is classified and agreed. Whether or not we like it, there is likely to be wholesale evasion in this area. Under the old rating system farmers devised ways of avoiding rates. There might have been one farmer, but if one went looking for the rates one would find three or four different rateable holdings in the wife's name, the son's name, the mother's name and so on. There was an advantage in doing things like that. In relation to farmers who are not already in the income tax system it will be impossible to determine exactly what they own. People already in the tax system must put on the forms the number of acres they own. That applies to a very small section of the farming community. Through no fault of the farming community they have not been assessed for income tax even though since 1983-84 every farmer is supposed to be in the tax net. The whole concept of an adjusted acre is daft. The farm tax seems to be another one of these sacred cows of the Labour Party.

And they are not ever here. Where is the Minister who introduced it?

He is not as far away as Tunis.

(Interruptions.)

This farm tax principle seems to have assumed the status of a sacred cow for the Labour Party, just as is the Local Radio Bill which we had last week. Due to the way in which farmer taxation has been politicised over the last 11 years it is almost impossible for any Minister to back down, having introduced the legislation. Even if a bad Bill is introduced we cannot withdraw it. The idea of an adjusted acre in section 2 is the most daft idea we have ever come up with in this House. Subsection (1) says that we should find one acre of land capable of the highest production in the State. We will have to have a competition to find one acre of the best land. Where is this famous acre to be? Maybe we could incorporate it on the "Late Late Show" and have a "write-in" for the best adjusted acre in the country or the land with the greatest potential. I would need the eloquence of Deputy John Kelly to describe this, it is so ridiculous. I cannot find words to describe it. The Minister must know that this section is rubbish. We are making a laughing stock of ourselves. This Bill refers to the nature and quality of the soil. I know the Minister was at a meeting with myself recently where a man was talking about how he would take account of the wind chill factor. I have never heard of such a thing.

Stick around and you will learn a lot.

How will all these things be assessed?

It is nothing to the chill you will be getting after this.

(Interruptions.)

Do not hold your breath, there will be a lot of hiccups between now and then.

The worrying thing about this section is that it is the kernel of the Bill. The principle here is that we are going to tax farmers on their potential to earn. If we are going to espouse this new principle why do we not extend it to solicitors, accountants, publicans and everyone else? Why is it just for farmers? I would be prepared to argue the merits of this Bill with anyone on the grounds that there is economic merit in having a land tax, but it is not being put forward on that basis. This could have been an idea put forward with a view to bringing more land into production. This Bill has only been put forward as a way to collect more income tax. Neither are we prepared to say that this is a wealth tax. I would be prepared to argue as to whether we should have a wealth tax. My views have changed over the last 11 years as to the advisability of a wealth tax. The Bill is not being sold as a wealth tax because we cannot sell it like that and just pick out the farmer and tax him differently from everybody else. If everybody was to pay a wealth tax that would be different. This is a new principle altogether. This is income tax. This is another way to collect income tax from farmers, and we are taxing them on their potential to earn. Why not extend this principle to all sections as regard income tax? Maybe we could tax solicitors — perhaps Deputy Shatter is one of them — on the number of square feet of floor space in their offices. A thousand square feet at £10 per square foot would bring in £10,000 tax. It would suit some solicitors, and others it would not suit. Maybe we should tax accountants in that way. Maybe we should tax everyone on this new principle. What about writers? Maybe we could have Hugh Leonard adjusted lines. Journalists could be taxed on Conor Cruise O'Brien adjusted one liners. That is really what we are getting here. This is being sold as income tax but it is on people's potential to earn. Why not tax the carpenter on the number of tools he has in his box?

All the things I have mentioned have only one thing in common, that is that one idea is more daft than the other. Nobody would advocate that we start to tax people in that way. No one in this House would wish to tax people on that basis. Should we tax doctors on the number of patients they have and multiply by 20 or 30 or 40? Some people would like that principle but it would not suit others. All those ideas are equally ridiculous. I believe in bringing things down to their basis, and this Bill is about the principle that we are going to income tax people on their potential to earn.

I have many other things to say regarding farmer taxation generally about which I know something. We all in this House would say that we should declare our interest. I am a practising chartered accountant and, therefore, I declare my interest in saying that it suits me to have farmers in the income tax net and doing accounts. I state that at the outset so that nobody can accuse me of defending my own profession. In the past ten years or so when the threshold continued to drop the farmers coming in feared the most. I know that most of the farmers who have been in the income tax net for a number of years have learned to live with it. It is no longer a big thing with them. They are prepared to pay their tax and have their accounts done.

I heard a great deal of rubbish here last week about the fees accountants charge and so on. Why are we setting up the great myth about farmers — of course, they have encouraged it down the years — that they are different from everyone else, that they cannot pay tax the same as everyone else and so on? Any businessman, be he a small shopkeeper or anything else, who wants to know how he is doing keeps records of some kind, and not a farmer in Kildare, big or small — who might give the impression of being an idiot and unable to keep records — when presented with an income tax bill is not able to bring his records up very quickly.

Section 2 has to do with the concept of an adjusted acre.

I will come back to the section. To define this wonderful thing called the adjusted acre all this gobbledegook must be put in covering a page and a half. Nobody is really certain about the principle. We will be defining the adjusted acre and on that we are going to tax people on their potential to earn. It is a principle that we are applying to a certain section of the community that does not apply to anyone else. I am against the whole principle of this Bill because it is daft and ridiculous.

People have been commenting in relation to this adjusted acreage. Positions have been taken by various people, by the Taoiseach, the Minister for Finance and the Labour Party, all expressing themselves against it and here we are now putting it through. Are the Labour Party and the Minister who introduced it here now to defend it? It is important on this principle of the adjusted acreage——

Acting Chairman

I am sorry to have to interrupt. Deputy Dowling has been offering for some time and in order to maintain balance——

I am asking for only 20 seconds and then I promise I will give way to Deputy Dowling. The reason the Labour Party are not here is that the ICTU——

On a point of order, Deputy O'Kennedy has spoken already twice so far.

On a point of order, we are in Committee.

I submit that it is only appropriate that the balance be kept in the House.

(Interruptions.)

Acting Chairman

I am calling Deputy Dowling. He has been offering for some time.

Where are the Labour Party?

Acting Chairman

Where the Labour Party are is no concern of the Chair. I am calling Deputy Dowling to be followed by Deputy Byrne.

The Labour Party are ashamed to come in and defend this.

In response to Deputy Noonan who suggested that I was endeavouring to misrepresent what he suggested was a misrepresentation of what the Taoiseach said, I was referring to what the Taoiseach had said in relation to the Griffith valuations, that they were iniquitous, and that it was time they were modified. In relation to what I feel about the principle of this type of taxation——

(Limerick West): The Deputy is being selective.

——Deputy McCreevy developed that and has indicated his total opposition to the concept. I have felt for a long time that the present system of income tax deters farmers from developing their resources to the maximum extent. I stand over that. Perhaps the members of the farming organisations in the gallery may disagree with that. I have seen farmers with initiative, ability and enterprise investing in their holdings and in their different patterns of farming, and the risk there is exceedingly high. It is perhaps a higher risk investment than any industry or any other comparable area in any part of the world. Unless there is seen to be a reasonable return from it, naturally the productivity levels will drop. That is happening in a number of the bigger farming enterprises. Unfortunately, this Bill does nothing to remedy that situation.

It makes it worse.

I would like to think that it could remedy it.

Acting Chairman

The section deals with the adjusted acre.

I understand that, and I am in favour of a form of taxation that would reward initiative and encourage production because in that situation the economy benefits. Whether this is the right form is open to debate.

(Limerick West): The Deputy knows very well it is not.

Getting back to the adjusted acre, there has been much gobbledegook in this House, a great deal of it hypothetical, as to what may arise.

The Bill says it must arise. Let us be clear on that. Let us not try to duck out at the side. The Bill says that it shall arise.

Acting Chairman

Deputy Dowling without interruption.

In connection with adjusting acreage, if I were to go out to the country, who would be the most qualified person I could go to? There are many qualified people. There are people very qualified academically. They can carry out soil surveys and solicit information in connection with soil potential, which I and most Members of this House would not be able to do, but the farmer has been working the soil all his life. Consider the man who can predict the weather from watching the vagaries of animals and so on because he is very observant. Nobody is better equipped than the farmer even in the draining of land. We have all as local authority representatives seen county engineers doing certain jobs, but people who have been living on the land know about the potential of the land. I hope that is what will be done and I know that it will be. The Minister has given his assurance as to what will be done not only once but twice and three times if necessary to ensure this form of land taxation in relation to potential income. I tell Deputy McCreevy that it is not a question of saying that land has a certain potential. It will be an established fact that it will have that potential.

Progress reported: Committee to sit again.
Sitting suspended at 1.30 p.m. and resumed at 2.30 p.m.
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