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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 22 Jan 1986

Vol. 363 No. 1

Children (Care and Protection) Bill, 1985: Second Stage (Resumed).

Question again proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time".

This Bill is one of the most important to come before the House in recent times and has its origins in pressure groups such as the Council of Civil Liberties, Children First, Cherish and social workers' groups, very many of whom were opposed to the pro-life amendment, support contraceptives, divorce, sex education and multi-denominational schools. For years they have been proclaiming that the child care laws are out of date and that our adoption laws and administration need to be reviewed in unspecified areas. They have never indicated which areas need to be reviewed.

Since these people had something to do with the formation of the Bill it is necessary to know something about them. In Response, Volume 4, No. 2, a document brought out by The Responsible Society, Family and Youth Concern, 24 Upper Fitzwilliam Street, Dublin, a paragraph dealing with an information pack on child sexual abuse says that on 3 November 1984 Deputy Barry Desmond gave a grant of £25,000 to the Irish Council of Civil Liberties to conduct a study into the sexual abuse of children. They are regarded as a left wing pressure group, a most unusual body to have received an official grant for a study of this nature. At the launch of the study an information pack was promised for the use of teachers, parents, social workers, etc. It has now been printed and an expensive glossy folder produced with public money has been distributed free. It consists of 14 advice sheets but the information is mostly culled from abroad. It is filled with subjective experiences and figures for the incidence of incest and child abuse relate to other countries, not to Ireland.

The whole exercise seems to be an expensive promotion of the Irish Council of Civil Liberties. The document goes on to say that the ICCL executive committee includes homosexual campaigner, David Norris. The sub-committee investigating sexual abuse of children consists of people who organised demonstrations in favour of abortion, including Ann O'Donnell of the Rape Crisis Centre and Dr. Marie Woods of the Wellwoman Centre.

In the Irish Independent of Wednesday, 26 January 1977 there was an article calling for the end of inalienable rights for parents written by Kadar Asmal. It is stretching credibility to think that Irish parents should be expected to accept the recommendations of these kind of groups who cast a slur on them. There is a concerted campaign in the media at present aimed at influencing the people who will have to vote in a referendum if this Bill is to become law.

I watched a women's programme recently and they gave four different examples of how children had been abused in their homes. I can remember three of the examples given. Children were abused by a young babysitter in one instance, the other example was that of a mature adult who had been abused in her youth by an uncle, but none of them was abused by the natural father. That is a point worth nothing.

Having set out the reasons why I object to certain recommendations in this Bill, I will now outline in detail the aspects I find unacceptable. The thrust of the Bill is to allow the State greater power to interfere in the family and greater control over the education, upbringing and destiny of our children, overriding the constitutional rights of the parents. To effect this, it seeks to establish rights for the child independently of the parents. The child, being a minor, cannot speak on its own behalf; so its rights must be asserted by a third party, the State. The State can then move in on the family through its officials and direct parents about their children's upbringing, or even take the children into care.

State control of this kind operates in Great Britain and elsewhere, often in an arbitrary fashion, and always with disastrous results. The civilised world was shocked recently when it watched the fate meted out to Mrs. Gillick when she went through due process of law from bottom to the very top — the House of Lords — in an effort to protect not only her children, as she said in an interview, but all the children of Great Britain from the abuses to which they are being subjected. We all know she failed. Do we really want to introduce that type of situation for the parents of Ireland, because I believe that is what this Bill will do?

State intervention on this scale is prohibited in this country by Article 41 of the Constitution, which declares the rights of the family and of parents to control the education and upbringing of their children. State interference is limited by Article 42.5 to exceptional cases where the parents, for physical or moral reasons, fail in their duty towards their children. In such cases "the State as guardian of the common good, by appropriate means, shall endeavour to supply the place of the parents". The State, however, does not possess the full constitutional rights of the parents but only such rights as are necessary for the child's welfare. "In exercising the jurisdiction to control or to ignore parental right the court must act cautiously, not as if it were a private person acting with regard to his own child"— that was the judgment handed down in the Supreme Court in the Kindersley case in 1944, and it was a very important judgment.

It was therefore alarming to read an announcement in The Irish Times on Thursday, 20 May 1985 that the Government have agreed to hold a referendum to change the Constitution, if it were necessary, to implement the Children (Care and Protection) Bill. This is very ominous because it means that there has been a deliberate decision to take away, under this Bill, some constitutional rights of the parents and to extend State control over our children. The explanatory memorandum circulated with the Bill does not identify in any way the particular provisions which are in breach of the Constitution. Of course, it is altogether improper to promote a Bill which is considered to be in breach of the Constitution, all the more so when the existence of the unconstitutional provisions in the Bill were not revealed to this House. This Bill could be passed off as an innocuous measure, containing only good provisions, which needed constitutional amendment to ensure that it could not be challenged. The constitutional referendum could then be cunningly drafted and we could find ourselves in a very serious position.

The grounds on which a health board can interfere in a child's upbringing are set out in section 33. They are extended to include notably the grounds of the child receiving inadequate care such as to impair substantially the child's proper development. This is a sweeping provision which could allow the health board, through their social workers, to interfere in families on a multitude of pretexts. Interference would focus particularly on poor families who, under anti-family legislation, have been impoverished to the point where they cannot buy adequate food and clothing for their children let alone provide facilities which a middle class social worker might consider essential for the proper development of children. Arbitrary action by the health board through the social workers in such a case could be the subject of a constitutional challenge. We are all aware that many a well off and much loved child sits on a poor mother's knee. If those criteria were applied, social workers could say a home was inadequate because it did not have wall to wall carpets.

The machinery for State control, other than emergency "place of safety" provisions, is set out in sections 34 to 40. A health board, having reasonable grounds for believing that a child is not receiving adequate care or that a child is suffering assault, ill-treatment, abuse, neglect and so on, may apply to a District Court for a supervision or care order. It is satisfactory at least that the State interference in the family should not be allowed except with a court hearing and decision, although an in camera hearing for these cases makes the check less effective. Even when the court allows State interference there should be safeguards — they are conspicuously lacking in this Bill — against harmful or objectionable action by the State when it gets control of the child.

I will now deal with court orders, supervision orders and care orders under section 35. On the application of a health board the District Court can make a supervision order, which leaves a child at home; or a care order, which takes a child from its parents or guardians into the control of a health board. A child subject to a supervision order may be required to attend at a specified place for such assessment, education, training or medical attention as would, in the opinion of the court, facilitate its proper development.

This unfettered discretion could be very dangerous, as has been proved by examples already cited from Great Britain. Education, training and medical attention are fields in which not only reasonable divergencies of opinion exist, but serious moral issues on which no agreement is possible will arise. A possible example would require a child to attend education which included sex education of a kind unacceptable to its religion or objected to by its parents. There is no safeguard against this. Medical attention could involve the administration of sedatives or other drugs and devices which would not be in accordance with the wishes of the parents. There must be safeguards against such plenary power over the child by the State.

I now turn to religious safeguards. A very necessary safeguard is to provide that any requirement under a supervision order shall not be valid if it would involve any assessment, education, training or medical attention which is contrary to the teaching of the child's religions, or which takes place under conditions which are unacceptable to the authorities of the child's religion, or if it is contrary to the reasonable wishes of the parents.

Another very necessary safeguard is the Catholic Church, to which almost 95 per cent of the children likely to need health board care belong. It is the only body with sufficient resources to protect poor families against the arbitrary exercise of State power and it should be given a clear entitlement to do so. The reasonable objections of parents could be overridden by the courts. One may ask if there was any consultation with the authorities of the Catholic Church during the preparation of this Bill, or are we witnessing another arrogant example of the civil authority crashing like a mindless juggernaut through the delicate fabric of family life? Having regard to the people responsible for providing much of what has gone into this Bill, it is very unlikely that the Catholic Church has been consulted good, bad or indifferent about the effects of the Bill on children.

In section 36 (4) it is stated that the care order may include conditions regarding access by or consultation with a parent or guardian on matters relating to the child. A part from this there is nothing in the section to control or limit the health board in their dealings with the child by reference to the wishes of the parents or by reference to the protection of the child's religion. Even where a child comes into care in a health board there should be some safeguard for the child's religion, faith and morals and also provision for the role of the parents and family to continue to have the safeguards overseen.

There are two classes of children in care, those committed to care by court order and children in voluntary care. Paragraph 14 of the explanatory memorandum to the Bill states that at present the health board can receive children into voluntary care only if the parents are dead or have abandoned them or if the parents are destitute. Section 25 extends this to cover situations in which parents may need to place their children in voluntary care through illness, psychiatric problems or other difficulties.

It is acceptable that parents should be allowed to place children in voluntary care for short or long periods if it is not possible for them to care for the children themselves. However, there is a distinction between children in voluntary care and those committed by court order. A child in voluntary care could always be taken back by the parents on request. Section 49 (2) allows the health board to hold the child and to apply to court for a place of safety order if the child is believed to be at risk of any of the circumstances that would allow a care order to be made. These include the very dubious ground of "inadequate care such as to impair substantially the child's proper development". We have already dealt with what that could mean. It is also possible for a health board to delay the return of a child for up to 14 days if the child has been in voluntary care for six months. Presumably this delay is intended to give the health board an opportunity of applying to the District Court for a care order to commit the child to retention in care. Otherwise there would be no point in the delay of 14 days which is envisaged in the Bill.

One must feel uneasy at the possibility of parents who have left a child in voluntary care as a temporary measure finding that they cannot get the child back when they request it. The situation could develop where parents would be refused the return of their child, for example, if he were being fostered in a family that could provide better facilities for his "proper development" than the parents could provide. This dilemma is explicit whenever a child is placed elsewhere than with his parents.

The principle must be that a child cannot be separated from his parents except for a serious fault on the part of the parents. Otherwise any family could be broken up if bettering the child's prospects of development were to be the criterion — this was hinted at in the Seanad debate on adoption on 30 June 1982. While paragraph 21 of the explanatory memorandum states only that release of the child will be delayed pending application for a place of safety order, section 49 would go further.

I insist on the Government making it clear in what circumstances, other than where a child is at risk of neglect, ill-treatment or abuse, that a place of safety order must be made. A health board will be empowered to retain in care a child who has been in voluntary care and whose parents or guardians have requested his return. Perhaps this is one of the provisions on which a referendum is required.

At present the courts commit children into residential care. Subsequently the health boards may arrange fosterage for these children and also for children in voluntary care but with the provision that only children who are orphaned or deserted or whose parents are destitute may be placed in fosterage, and that the consent of the child's parents must be obtained if they are available.

Under sections 43 and 44 any child in the care of a health board, including those in voluntary care, may be placed in fosterage and the health board shall not place a child in residential care unless the necessary care of the child cannot be provided except by residential care. It would appear the consent of the parents is no longer to be required. This is very serious.

Pressure groups and a good deal of other opinion is strongly in favour of foster care for children as providing family life and they condemn institutional care as essentially bad for a child. I suggest that the alternatives are not just as black and white as that and many children could be happier in a modern children's home than in fosterage. Much depends on the child and on the kind of home life provided by the foster parents. A family of brothers and sisters might be better off in a children's home than if they were scattered among different foster parents. Cases of children unhappy in fosterage when separated from their siblings have been reported in England since this law was introduced there.

The Bill does not appear to contain any provision to safeguard the religion of children taken into care other than section 63 (3) which applies to custody cases only and also section 15 (7). The need for such a provision arises in an acute form in connection with fosterage. Prior to March 1983 children could be placed in fosterage only with foster parents of the same religion. In March 1983 the Minister amended the statutory regulations to allow children to be placed in the foster care of persons of other religions provided the child's parent or parents gave consent and to allow orphans or deserted children to be placed with foster parents of another religion provided that the foster parents undertook to bring the child up in its own religion. Non-Catholics cannot bring up a Catholic child in the fullness of a faith they have not got themselves. At present, when so many denominations of Protestants are in vociferous disagreement with practically every item of the Catholic moral code, it would be putting the faith and morals of a Catholic child in certain peril to place him in charge of any person other than a Catholic.

Therefore, it is essential to make specific statutory provision that children be placed in foster care only with foster parents of the same religion.

It would be advisable also to specify, as in section 13 of the Adoption Act, 1952, that the health board must be satisfied that each of the foster parents is of good moral character and is a suitable person to have parental rights and duties in respect of the child. At a time when we are being encouraged to take on alternative lifestyles it is imperative that these issues be written into any Bill dealing with the welfare of our children.

A similar provision should be made to ensure that children's homes are also satisfactory as regards the religious formation of the child, a provision that a child shall not be placed in any place of residential care unless such place is under the control and management of the Church to which the child belongs, or is approved by the authorities of the Church to which the child belongs is absolutely necessary.

In a Bill which introduces the concept of a child's proper development it is amazing that there is no provision to safeguard the child's formation in his religion, which is of the most importance in the development of any individual.

There is provision in the Bill prohibiting changing the religion of a child but this applies only where a custody order is made by the District Court vesting legal custody of a child in a person with whom the child has had his home, for a period of 12 months if parents or guardians consent to the order or for a period of three years in any other case. A parent or legal guardian who has been missing for 12 months and who cannot be found or who is incapable of giving consent by reason of mental infirmity is deemed to have given consent.

Section 63(3) prohibits a person granted legal custody of a child from changing the child's religion or arranging for the child's emigration, a legal custodian can, however, authorise medical treatment for the child, as provided in section 9. Medical treatment may involve moral issues. It is, therefore, essential that a child should not be given into the custody of anyone of a different religious persuasion. The prohibition against changing a child's religion does not guarantee that a child will be openly brought up in his own religion and never taught to do anything or subjected to any influence or treatment contrary to the teaching of the religion to which he belongs. There should be strict specific provision for this. A health board taking a child from his parents into care are bound to accept responsibility for the religious and moral education of the child under Article 42 of the Constitution, as well as for his intellectual, physical and social education, also referred to in Article 42.

There must be provision to ensure the proper religious and moral upbringing and formation of the child according to the teaching of the religion to which he belongs. In any law which transfers the care of a child to the State, with the responsibility of supplying the place of the child's parents, Article 42 of the constitution is specific in terms of this protection.

Section 15 provides for the registration of children's homes by health boards and for the making of regulations by the Minister for Health governing the design, maintenance, repair, ventilation, heating and lighting of the homes, the kind of accommodation, including washing and plumbing, the food and staffing, in fact most detailed control of the homes. There is a saver in subsection (6) that no requirement contrary to the religious beliefs of a religious body or organisation running a children's home can be imposed. All aspects of the care of the child are dealt with in detail, except that all important aspect of his religious background and formation.

Section 16 prohibits a children's home from receiving any child, save in emergency, except with the approval of a health board. This is in pursuance, presumably, of the policy of placing children in foster care rather than in a home. The health board will decide which is appropriate. It will be an offence with a penalty of £500 to receive or retain a child without the approval of a health board.

This is rather highhanded and could involve overruling the reasonable wishes of parents to place a child or children in a home for voluntary care, rather than in fosterage. The Bill does not provide any appeal to the District Court in case of dispute but a constitutional case could possibly be taken by a parent whose wishes were overruled.

Is it not most inconsistent to reject institutional care for children while we are talking about providing day care for the children of mothers who are being forced in greater numbers out of their homes in order to provide for their children? What is the difference between day care and institutional care? Day care represents the State providing for institutional care for a child during the greater part of his waking hours.

Paragraph 13 of the explanatory memorandum is to the effect that section 24 will enable day care services to be provided by the health boards for persons with special needs, for example, single parents and travellers. However, the section contains no such limitation.

It is necessary, too, to consider the extent of the problem because this is very much exaggerated and would be much less if the State was not co-operating in setting up alternative lifestyles. Of the children born to unmarried mothers, 40 per cent go into long term care.

In paragraph 5 of the explanatory memorandum it is stated that about 3,700 children spend time in care each year and that in 1984 the figure was 3,724. The number of children who are in long term care as a result of marital breakdown is small. Most of these are put into short term care while the problems are sorted out. The figures indicate that 50 per cent or more of those children return to their families when the parent's differences are resolved one way or another.

I am gravely concerned about the impact this Bill will have on society. What I find alarming is that, having listened during a long period to many of my colleagues speaking on the Bill, none of them seems to see any danger in it. That is very unfortunate.

Government intrusion into the family seems to be spreading with the notion that only the State can solve the human problems in the areas of health, education and welfare. Without the benefit of any consensus from the electorate, an unwritten family policy seems to be emerging. The Minister for Health seems to be intent on building up layer upon layer of legislation which would mean that the State, rather than the family, would have the primary responsibility to define and satisfy the full range of human needs. The State's response is always therapeutic. It never tries to identify and treat the causes of the problem. This Bill, together with the proposed changes in the adoption laws and the Status of Children Bill, is a classic example of the trend that has been emerging for some time. Some weeks ago in an article in one of the national newspapers, a senior civil servant was quoted as having described the proposed changes as a veritable minefield. I agree totally with that view.

One of the thorniest issues regarding child abuse and neglect is the difficulty of the definition. The goal is to strike a balance between protecting the rights of the parents and the integrity of the family while at the same time maintaining the legitimate interest of the State in the lives and limbs of defenceless children. The Government would do well to remove the obstacles to the growth and development of the family, namely, excessive taxation and misdirected Government spending. There is an awareness of the need to protect and defend the primacy of the family which it enjoys under Article 41 and Article 42 of our Constitution. There is an awareness among the electorate which was reflected in the results of the recent local elections, and I agree with Deputy John Kelly when he said yesterday that the people of this nation do not want the socialist policies in which we have been engaging for far too long. I look forward to the referendum on this Bill and it is my earnest hope that by the time it comes about there will be no family in Ireland left in any doubt as to the adverse effects of some of the sections in this Bill.

I apologise for my voice since I am suffering from a sore throat. I welcome some aspects of this Bill which are badly required. I refer to such things as the introduction of regulations and controls on day care facilities, foster care in children's homes and the improved provision for children placed in care, where this is necessary. I also welcome the introduction of new custody facilities for foster parents.

This is the first of three Bills and I had expected that the Minister would tackle the most serious problems in this first Bill. The question of juvenile justice is to be dealt with in the third Bill. Serious problems are to be found in areas such as the inner city of Dublin and a positive range of provisions is urgently needed for the extension of the range of services to make probation an effective alternative to prison. The provision of probationary and after-care hostels, the employment of adequate numbers of school attendance officers, the expansion of the juvenile liaison officer scheme and the probation and welfare service are all vitally important. Another vital factor is the increase in the age of criminal responsibility to 15 and the provision of a juvenile court system.

These are the series of measures which are now required urgently to cater for young people at risk, but for some reason the Minister has run away from the most urgent measures required. He has decided in this Bill to introduce measures which are less urgent. The young people who are most seriously at risk are to be found in such places as Dublin's inner city. Surely these people should be the first for consideration in trying to bring about improvements. The Minister has been cowardly in tackling these problems because it would be controversial and would require the expenditure of a significant amount of finance. In being seen to be doing something while in fact doing nothing, the Minister has opted for the easy way out.

While I welcome the limited provisions of this Bill, it falls far short of dealing with the problems it sets out to tackle. The Task Force on Child Care Services, which sat from 1975 to 1981, came up with a series of very useful and important proposals; yet this legislation ignores the vast majority of proposals in that report. The Minister's response to the report in this legislation is a serious disappointment to the many voluntary and professional people who give their lives to the services of young people at risk.

Prevention and early intervention are crucial but this Bill totally ignores these concepts, apart from paying lip service. The health boards are being given the job of providing the services to be initiated by this Bill but the Bill is skimpy in its provisions. It is provided that a health board may do this or that and we can take it that they have the option not to take any action. How are the health boards expected to do anything without the necessary finance? The lack of adequate resources makes this exercise tantamount to putting legislation through the House in order to put it on the top shelf. The health boards do not have the financial resources to do much of the work which is so urgently required. In the Western Health Board area we have discontinued dental, optical and other services; yet the Minister says that the health board may do this or that, without any clear indication as to how he proposes to finance these activities. The Minister should table an amendment to provide that the health boards "shall" do certain things, indicating that he will provide the necessary finance.

The health board staff dealing with this area, particularly social workers, are already clearly overworked with existing commitments. There is no effort made in this Bill to improve the performance of the social workers by improving the training and supervision. The matter is left to the discretion of the health boards. Taking the country overall one can note a serious discrepancy between the performance of one health board and another.

The other aspect of the Bill about which I am concerned is its almost total ignorance of the very useful contribution of the voluntary organisations. I have a letter from the ISPCC who express their disappointment that voluntary organisations like theirs have been excluded from the decision-making process in relation to child care services. They say that their organisation contributed to the Task Force on Child Care Services established in 1980. Yet this Bill reflects little of that report which took six years to compile. They say they would like to see the establishment of a national children's council which would promote co-operation between the various agencies engaged in child care. They contend that a national policy could minimise the different degrees of interest in child care services within the health board regions. They go on to say that their organisation is involved at many levels throughout the country in developing preventive services for children and for families experiencing difficulties. They are concerned that the emphasis in this Bill is placed on the regulation and inspection of the various child care services which will not allow the overworked social workers sufficient opportunity to develop preventive services.

The ISPCC are one of the bodies which, probably more than any other in this country, play a most important role in looking after children at risk. Yet they have expressed their serious dissatisfaction with the provisions of this Bill and have called for the establishment of a national children's council. One must question why the provisions of this Bill do not allow for the establishment of such a national children's council which was also envisaged in the report of the task force to which I have referred.

On the question of the child care advisory committees and the voluntary organisations, the voluntary and community representatives on child care advisory committees, as proposed under the terms of this Bill, do not constitute a way forward. Neither are they in any way adequate. It is suggested that membership of a child care advisory committee may include persons who are not members of a health board. Yet the main thrust of that task force report was to enable communities to assess their needs and to plan an appropriate response. Unfortunately, the provisions of this Bill render it difficult for communities to assess their needs and to plan an appropriate response.

The provisions of the Bill do very little for people interested in the preventive aspect of this matter. They do not seem to encourage the development of voluntary organisations and community groups interested and involved in providing child, family and community services; neither do they give them an equal say in the planning, financing or delivery of services in their areas.

As is envisaged under the provisions of the Bill, the District Court does not constitute a suitable forum for dealing with children with special needs and is also totally unsuitable for the dispensing of justice. It is for that reason that I suggest there should be a young person's or juvenile court to deal with the evergrowing problem of juvenile delinquency and to deal with the growing problem also of despair and disaffection among young people. Therefore, in addition to the establishment of this court, I contend that my earlier suggestions should be implemented.

The final point with which I want to deal is the proposal of the task force committee that school attendance officers, special schools and so on be brought under the control of one Department. I am not sure whether they suggested that that should be the Department of Health. That being the case, this Bill chooses to ignore the aspects of child care now placed at such risk because of the problem of school truancy. One wonders when and where this Government will tackle this problem. There was announced recently a youth policy which was a consequence of the Costello Committee which had dealt with this problem in detail. Their report contained significant and worthwhile proposals on the problem of school truancy and on the need for the employment of school attendance officers.

It is my contention that the seeds of crime and vandalism are now being sown at an alarming rate among young people engaging in school truancy particularly in Dublin city. Yet after three years in office this Government have totally ignored this escalating problem. There is no question but that the rampant crime and valdalism now to be found throughout this city are born among nine, ten and eleven year olds who are engaging in school truancy. Yet the services necessary to solve that problem are grossly inadequate. One might have expected that this Bill would have endeavoured to tackle that serious problem. The appointment of school attendance officers, the establishment of special schools and so on do not form part of this Bill. I find it very difficult to understand how the Minister can ignore such a serious, urgent problem.

In his concluding remarks on this Bill it is important that the Minister would clearly outline to the House when he proposes to introduce legislation in regard to the other matters I have mentioned, those which I assume will be included in the ensuing two Bills. I should like to know when the Minister expects to introduce those Bills and whether he will include in their provisions those so sorely missing from the present one.

It appears that one cannot please everybody. At the beginning of his remarks I think Deputy F. Fahey described the Minister's approach as cowardly and insufficient, contending that he should have placed the third Bill before the first one. Those remarks are unwarranted and unfair, taking into account the trouble to which the Minister has gone to endeavour to introduce the necessary Bill, which indeed constitues far-reaching social legislation essential to the welfare of our children. Indeed, it updates legislation which has obtained for over 100 years. In other sections of the law we have been putting up with legislation which has been in existence for over 100 years. Therefore, I cannot understand what Deputy Fahey is complaining about. Rather than looking positively at the provisions of this Bill, their advantages, the happiness they will bring to many miserable, tortured children experiencing the many horrors of life within our society, all Deputy Fahey appears to do is criticise them, complain that they are insufficient and that we should have something else in their place.

I welcome the honest approach adopted in the formulation of the provisions of this Bill. Because it is so far reaching and comprehensive, inevitably difficulty arises in drafting a formula that will meet the answers to all the complications in child care, child abuse, custody of children, separation from parents and loved ones, suffering and hardship. There is an opportunity for Deputy Fahey, if he wants it, between now and Committee Stage of the Bill to take it section by section and take full advantage of the research that has been done in the area of child care. The explanatory memorandum lists the organisations who were consulted in the preparation of the Bill. Deputy Fahey can take advantage of those and of the large body of knowledge available in the libraries and in the body of law that has been prepared in other countries. As spokesman for youth he might engage himself usefully in that exercise rather than coming in here and throwing a shot at the Bill and talking about something entirely different through all his short contribution.

It is not absolutely essential to go in detail into the sections of the Bill as Committee Stage has to come up and the Minister is open to suggestions and recommendations. Some people are taking a one point of view look at the Bill and condemning it on the basis of that one look. The Minister's opening remarks made clear what he is trying to do, and this is related to children to whom the Government are committed and that the legislative programme provides a comprehensive, updated and extended body of law to protect and promote the welfare and security of our children. Deputy Fahey could have been more concerned with the horrible examples and cases of child abuse that have occured and been reported widely in the last few months in this country. Some of these cases are horrifying. We have been inclined to think that we are something other than we are. We are not capable of looking at ourselves objectively. We are confused by the same tag of Christianity that the Irish people have acquired or given to themselves over the years. Because you are a Christian, or people think you are a Christian, you can often ignore the fact that you are anything but Christian in your actions. There is very little evidence in this country of Christianity. I have heard it said here as recently as the last week in the last session, on marriage breakdown for example, how tolerant a nation we are, how compassionate and humane we are. I reject the suggestion that we are any of those three things. Daily we prove that we are not. Perhaps the fabric of which Christianity is woven is not complex enough to absorb the society of the eighties. Maybe Hinduism would do so; Christianity does not. Therefore, we heard ridiculous assertions by my colleague, Deputy Glenn, in several of her comments about religion. The total approach seems to be in the context of religion and no mention is made of the horrible lives that some children in this country had even in religious institutions through the years and how they were used and abused in those institutions without a grain of humanity shown towards them. They were used to serve the sons and daughters of the establishment. They were used in private, boarding, fee paying schools to do cleaning, make beds, wash up, and were not even given an education. They could not wait to reach the age of 14, then the legal school leaving age, to take the boat to England and get to hell out of this unChristain country and never show face in it again. That was the way we treated our orphans down through the years.

I question whether we should insist that children go to homes of the religion of the parents. Listening to Deputy Glenn one would think that Catholicism was being assaulted when 97 per cent of the population are Catholic, yet the Bill is condemned because it might provide for the possibility of someone ending up in the care of a non-Catholic foster home. As a matter of fact, in many cases, children would enjoy a better chance, better advantage if they were fortunate enough to end up in such a situation. I hope that the Minister will ignore totally the kind of suggestions I have referred to.

I do not intend to go into the Bill in great depth at the moment. I welcome it as a tool to help those who are looking after children, who care about them genuinely, who feel helpless at the moment, as many of us do in that we cannot reach out and protect and look after children in the circumstances I have mentioned and give them a chance. I find almost cruel the approach of some people when discussing the Bill in that they can be so heartless although they think they are being kind. The real objective, purpose and goal that we should have are to make society as egalitarian as possible and reject out of hand the approach that has been taken down throughout the decates by those who have been in power for most of the time, the approach of patronage towards the disadvantaged and the less well off. We think we can absolve our consiences by patronage, dipping into our pockets or maybe hiding under the cloak of Christianity or religion, but we never really open up society and give equal opportunity and fair advantage to everyone.

Sinces the foundation of the State this society consciously or unconsciously, has been run by an elitest group of Irish people whom it seems the State has benefited. That may not have been the intention when it was set up but that is what has come about. The Establishment have promoted a system of rule whereby the professions gain and the sons and daughters of the middle and upper middle classes continues to benefit in perpetuity, and the gap is becoming wider. Even in the ten or 15 years since I left college and became an adult the chances of a person getting through third level education have diminished greatly. One would have throught that in the last ten or 15 years, with the improvement of standards, the control of our own destiny would have come about; but that has not happened because of those who have been in power and are formulating laws and controlling the professions. These professions have not been opened up and the opportunities have not been given.

The Minister has brought this Bill before the House today because the most helpless and most vulnerable in our society have been abused, very often not deliberately but because of their unfortunate circumstances. The religious — and particularly those whom Deputy Glenn has defended so much — have been totally pigheaded in their approach towards the kind of families that we should have. The coldness, heartlessness, ignorance and unreality of approach of the leaders of those religions, who are again products of the establishment, have shown in the roles they have laid down, the impression they have made and the influence they have had on the uneducated members of our society. They pushed them to the brink, making them suffer beyond endurance in having large families living in a way of life which ensured an existance of slavery in their short lives. One half of the families had to emigrate and the other half were doomed to an early death.

One of the few heartening things about this Government is our good fortune in having a Minister like the present Minister controlling the portfolio of Health. I hope that he will continue with the same approach that he has used to the portfolio since he came into office. I hope that he will not be deflected from his task of trying to bring about justice and fairness in our society and a system of health which will look after the disadvantaged, even if it is to the discomfiture of those smung people who make speeches solely about the spiritual welfare of children who need care and protection.

This is very significant social legislation which will help to protect and promote the security of Irish children. It has been suggested that society's dedication to democracy is most severely tested by its attitude to its children. When considering the rights of children we are forced to examine many of the attitudes of our society to basic principles of democracy — freedom of self-determination, protection of the week, personal quality and individual worth. In a democratic society we expect that all children will be entitled to the same level of care and believe that they have similar physical, emotional and educational needs. We do not expect that a child's future place in the hierarchy of society will be predetermined at birth. We expect that the children will be able to develop their potential so that their place or role in society will not be determined by where they were born or how much money their parents possessed but will be decided by their natural abilities, attitudes and inclinations. We have a filtering system which we encourage in our society; and this is emphasised by the cruel educational system which gives a better chance to the advantaged people.

Remember that these are people who know how to use the system best. Even when money is spent in certain disadvantaged areas you will often find that the facilities provided are taken up by the people who know best how to use the system. I had experience in my constituency in that regard. I discovered that in one part of it 4 per cent of the population get a crack at a third level education and they make up 27 per cent of the population of St. Patrick's, Mountjoy. In the other part 1 per cent of the population — that is 1 per cent of 50,000 to 60,000 people in Ballyfermot — get a crack at a third level education and they make up 17 per cent of the population at St. Patrick's in Mountjoy. The gap is becoming wider. With regard to the facilities provided in that area in recent years in a regional college, it turned out that most of the students came from places outside that area, although the facilities were provided for the area. We must cut through this unfair system.

It is hoped that the educational system will be torn down — the system which leads into the third level institutions and which only the advantaged can use to get there. These factories, after secondary schools have dealt with the students, grind people who can afford to pay extra money into the universities and produce the continual cycle of sons of professional people contiuing to benefit at the expense of the disadvantaged. If we start at the bottom with something like this Child Care and Protection Bill, we can change society, and this Bill is important enough to do that.

If children are more cared for they grow up to be adjusted and balanced and they will be able to take their proper place in society. There is nothing so pathetic as to see an innocent person being abused and the same goes for the abuse of animals. Just because animals are not human, people believe that they can be abused and that the owners can inflict any from of cruelty on them. If we cannot have the right kind of approach towards our dumb animals, we cannot have it towards the children of our community.

The burden of bringing up children is often just too great for the families to bear and as a result there is terrible hardship and suffering on innocent members of our society. I find it extraordinary that when the Minister, as he is doing now, introduced Bills, which showed concern for helping and balancing our society, trying to help the disadvantaged and the suffering, he was attacked by well-meaning people, often by individuals and groups in society outside the House. I wonder to the electorate realise that they have elected people to the House who do not put forward their points of view. The electorate are not represented because I have heard people say that they have gone to individuals or groups and because of the opinions they had been given by such individuals and groups decided that a piece of legislation was all right — in other words, it had got the imprimatur.

That is a disgraceful state of affairs. Is it any wonder that there is criticism when progressive, forward looking legislation is introduced? It is to be expected; and I am sure the Minister, with his great experience, is not surprised at the arguments coming from the most conservative groups in our society. This, after all, is a very conservative House, representing a very conservative people. Those who are brave and courageous and who have the ability to try to improve society must do so against the will of the people who think they are doing best for society, the people who are supposed to be giving the lead in showing us how to look after those children; the people who tell us how to love our children and our neighbours and our brothers, how to share equally, how to give equal opportunities, how to be tolerant, humane and Christian. Not even the practitioners of those precepts, not even those ordained to carry those tasks, are able to put them into practice.

I challenge members of Christian religions in Ireland to show me that they are making their precepts work. In their own lives those people are unable to do it. There are a few people, whom you could possibly count on the fingers of two hands, who are setting a lead quietly on the ground, living with the poor and their problems. Those people know that in order to help the disadvantaged they must get out among them. You must never think of people more disadvantaged than yourself and refer to them as "they". This is a common flaw and a common giveaway by the patronage dispensers. They themselves can drive from one district to another and not see the problems around them. They can pass by needy children and not be moved, and stop half a mile down the road where they live in luxury.

It is about time somebody took the bull by the horns and faced this blot on society. It is about time somebody broke down the barriers erected in 1908. It appears that one must go to certain institutions for permission to do anything in regard to social legislation because this has been claimed as their domain. I commend the Minister and the Bill for trying to break down those barriers and get at the problems that they have caused.

A TD would have to be blind if he did not see the terrible sufferings and hardships that exist outside. Many of us are blind, and the House has been universally blind in many instances, particularly during the last week we sat when we attempted to rush through legislation in order to enrich a bunch of scoundrles who are robbing the poor in order to enrich themselves.

On the Bill, please.

I am talking about gaming by way of swindling machines. The Bill is dealing with victims of those whom I have just referred to. Much of the care and protection to be afforded by this Bill will go to children of parents who have been swindled and improverished by such injustices in our society. I suggest that Deputies Fahey and Glenn should have thought more carefully about that when making their contributions. We are not looking at children in isolation. We must look at the reasons why the problems are there, and the causes. We must try to eliminate those causes and give an umbrella of protection.

I do not regard this as State interference in the same way as institutions with certain beliefs and codes would try to protect children. There are no prejudices in this Bill, whose benefits will be open to all children, to all members of society. The idea is to have the children returned to their parents or substitute parents as soon as possible. There is an extremely important thread running through the Bill, the attempt to stop child abuse. Games have been played with the health boards and other authorities when people who should not have their children back try to fool the authorities.

We must remember the terrible crimes against children that have taken place in the last few months in Britain and throughout the world. In Ireland, Britain and the US child abuse has come very much to the fore, and it is plain that the spirit of the Bill is to the help to provide resources from the protection of children against abuses of all kinds. The Bill does not propose to interfere, and I am sure the Minister does not want to get involved in family life. His ideas is to intervence only when family life breakes down.

I am glad the Bill provides for the strengthening of the powers of health boards to provide child care and family support services. There is a growing need for such services. Sometimes the need arises because a woman wants to go on working after raising a family, and so that children can receive proper care and attention and have an opportunity of learning to mix with other children. There are pressures on families living in newly developed areas where there are few facilities. Mothers of young families who are housed in strange surroundings and a distance from their relatives live under a terrible strain. There is also a need for alternatives to placing children in full time care where their parents are only temporarily unable to care for them.

I am glad that the Bill adopts a brave approach in regard to the children of single parents and the children of travellers. Under the heading of preventive measures in the explanatory memorandum there is a reference to the fact that for disadvantaged children and working parents day care services were an important source of support. There is a great need for some support for single parents because on their own it is difficult for them to hold down a job and rear a child. Single mothers, and travellers, have been treated as the pariahs in our society in recent years. I often hear criticism of decisions to provide services and housing for single mothers. There is a terrible prejudice against them in our society. People should remember that the prejudice also applies to the child, an innocent party that must be protected. I have no doubt that the Minister will be attacked because he has tried to provide something for such people in the Bill. The critics will suggest that if one becomes a single mother all types of services will be available, such as housing, and that under the Bill it will be possible to put a child into a day care centre where the State will look after him or her, as if there was something wrong with that. This all goes to emphasise the hypocritical nature of our society. There is no substitute for parental love and the best one can do is to provide for the needs of children.

The objective in the Bill is to try as far as possible as to cut down the amount of institutional care and substitute foster care and love for children. Most of the children involved are very young and impressionable. What they need is love and I do not think it makes a lot of difference if a child is blessed with Holy Water, has prayers read to it from the bible or Hare Krishna type singing if that child is given plenty of love and care.

We need and alternative to placing children in full time care where parents are temporarily unable to care for them. We need to provide adequate family support services because the welfare of children is inseparable from the welfare of families. Some families need a lot more support than others. That need may arise due to factors such as the size of the family. Large families are often promoted vigorously by the religious leaders in our society whose proponents are now trying to pick holes in the Bill and are saying, "My God we are going to lose our religion?" It would be no harm if we lost our religion because of what it means and does to our society in a lot of cases. Perhaps we should start afresh by being more humane to each other. Some need more support than others because a single parent may be involved or economic factours such as a low income or because of social conditions. Many people have been made to feel that they are bad parents because they are unable to provide for the needs of their children. It is important that the basic needs of children are provided. The harsh reality here is that many people cannot afford to maintain their families. We must recognise that and provide adequate support for them.

I am glad the Bill recognises that where a child must be cared for other than by its family that the most desirable approach is to provide the care required with another family rather than in an institutional setting. Institutional settings have meant that thousands of our adults will have a lifetime of nightmares. The horrors of institutional care, some of which have been documented, have come to us from those who lived through them. Some of my relations who were orphaned went to those institutions and left the country with bitterness in their hearts because of the treatment meted out of them. The institutions were almost militarised in their approach. Orphans were used in boarding schools — in fact, they were used at Clongowes Wood College for years until they reached the age of 14 — to clean out dormitories and look after refectories being used by the young gentleman about to take their place in our society. Most of those children were not educated by the Jesuits. It often puzzled me why they were not given an education. In fact, they were not allowed use the facilities provided for the young gentlemen, such as the swimming pool or the courts. In their free time those orphans went to the nearest shop to buy crisps and so on and told of their dreams and prayers that they would soon reach the age of 14 or 15 so that they could leave school and take the boat to England, never to return. We are trying to redress such happenings in the Bill. Those who think they know better want control over the minds and bodies of such children. The approach outlined in the Bill is a healthy one.

Section 15 provided for the registration of residential facilities for deprived children. That will cover residential homes, the former industrial schools, for which the Minister has assumed responsibility from the Minister for Education, and homes approved under the Health Acts for the reception of children in need. That area was in a sorry state when it was under the control of Education. The treatment of pupils in those institutions was often too brutal to relate. The Department of Health, the Minister, and the boards, will give more protection to a child and provide a better opportunity for such a child to be taken care of by a family. This is in line with the policy of promoting foster care as the first option in caring for children apart from their families and preventing unnecessary or inappropriate use of residential care facilities. I am glad that is the case and that the Minister recognises that where a child cannot be cared for by his family the most desirable approach is to provide the care he or she requires in a family rather than in an institutional setting. I do not wish to denigrate the excellent service provided for many years by children's homes but I am sure we all accept that in most cases it is better for a child to grow up in a family and I am glad that this has been recognised in the Bill.

There are and will continue to be cases where children's homes will be better suited to the care of certain children. However, such cases usually involve children who need specialist care on a long or short term basis. Some of those children need to be assessed, others need emergency short term care and some children do not wish to be fostered. The Bill is brave in regard to many areas and it will give rise to a lot of discussion. For example, Part V, dealing with custody, provides for a new procedure which would enable persons bringing up a child to obtain a custody order granting them legal custody of the child which would prevent an abuse of the rights of a child who is placed by parents in foster care. At present such child may be removed at any time regardless of how attached he or she has become to the foster parents.

The aim of the Bill is to protect the interests of the child by affording legal recognition to the relationship with the foster family and securing it against arbitrary and precipitous interference. I am sure that will give rise to discussion and the objective is right. However, it can be provided for in enabling legislation and I will come back to that on Committee Stage.

The objective of the Bill is to be as broad as possible and to cater for all the exigencies and difficulties that may arise. It must also have the child in mind all the time. That is very welcome because long ago we did not look on the child as someone who had rights. In fact we did not consider that youth had any rights. Children were pushed around — perhaps not intentionally — but in those days they did what they were told, did not ask any questions and were seen but not heard. They did not speak in the presence of adults and nobody ever asked their opinion about anything. We have made tremendous advances since then inbehavioural science and children have been studied and are now treated as human beings with rights and privileges. An attempt has been made to cater for this in the Bill.

Part III of the Bill provides for procedures to ensure that children in the need of care and protection receive it. Section 25 extends the powers of the health board to take children into voluntary care. At present a health board may receive children into voluntary care only when they have been abandoned or where their parents are dead or destitute. There are many othere cases where parents may need to place their children in voluntary care, for example, in cases of marital breakdown or family crises and I am glad that the Bill recognises that the health boards can accept children into care in these situations.

Part III of the Bill is also significant in that it places an obligation on health boards to promote the welfare of children in their areas. The big worry in providing care and protection for children is very often in the area of abuse and in making sure that there is access to children suspected of being at risk. Social welfare workers should know what is going on and this must be a big worry to the Minister in formulating the Bill because there have been horrible killings in Britain and the finger was pointed at the social welfare workers. It is a very difficult area and I hope this will be successful in providing protection for these children. We are very fortunate in having wonderful health boards nurses and others who look after children. We have the kind of society in which that system works although with Dublin expanding so rapidly it is not easy to become familiar with all the families in an area. Houses in estates change hands rapidly and it is difficult to get to know people. Perhaps the Minister for the Environment could appeal to Dublin Corporation to do something with their estates and to plan them better in the future so that they would include a mix of houses and smaller compact areas. They should get away from their terrible, closed mind attitudes and stop building these inappropriate housing estates which create so many problems. They are now so bad that even murders are taking place in them. Children could be better cared for if these estates were more manageable.

Most Ministers do not act on the suggestions of backbenchers and, therefore, it is very difficult to implement their ideas. I have suggested in the past that instead of having housing lists we should give loans through the Housing Finance Agency which would not require a deposit so that we could have a natural mix of people around the city. These people could buy their houses where they liked and this could greatly help to diminish the problems in these estates.

I will reserve my more detailed comments until the Committee Stage. Section 27 provides that in an emergency a garda would be empowered to remove, without warrant, a child whose safety required that he be a removed. While I have many problems with the Bill, which will have to be tested out, I welcome this provision which attempts to safeguard children. I know what the Minister is trying to get at here. This section is trying to safeguard children and to prevent the terrible tragedies we have read about recently happening here, but I would be happier if this power were extended to social workers attached to health boards. It goes without saying that I realise there are dreadful problems in this area and that serious accusations are made when individuals are given authority to pay money to people in need. The public come to clinics and complain about this or that officer and it can be difficult to sort out these problems. The Minister is making a brave attempt in this Bill and I am glad he did not sit down and take instructions from just one group. If he had followed the suggestions of previous speakers we would have a very restricted Bill of one or two pages but we would still have the same problems. We might end up with the same 97 per cent of people with one religion but it would be religion in name only. I would prefer to see this power vested in social workers because they are trained to deal with these matters and are directly involved in monitoring families and so on.

When considering such laudable measures to protect children from neglect, we must also consider the prevention of such cases. Studies of the parents of non-accidentially injured children indicate that they often have personal and social problems, have a low threshold of tolerance and overreact under such stress as a child crying. Such families required considerable emotional and practical support until some of the stresses have diminished. However comprehensive the support for families in such a situation is, adequate protection for children is only possible if the health boards are given additional funds to provide the necessary services.

The Bill has many good provisions in relation to the care of children namely, the recognition of the importance of care for children in their own families and the role of family support services in ensuring this, the proposal to register day care facilities, the recognition of children's rights vis-à-vis parents' rights, the commitment to develop foster care services, and the commitment to ascertain and consider children's wishes to relation to placement and care.

In conclusion, I would like to emphasise once again that we need to safeguard children's welfare by providing adequate financial support for the family and by providing adequate support services to aid families in trouble.

I think the Minister for allowing me time to make a few comments. I welcome this Bill, which is very important. It is the first major development since 1908 and is a genuine effort to strengthen and update the law on child care. It is particularly important for people in the social area to have a strengthening of the legislative position. The support required is provided in this Bill, but there are a couple of sections which need to be strengthened because they are a bit vague. On Committee Stage we will have an opportunity to put down amendments to them.

Like other speakers I would like to see a preventative service in this area. We have seen in other countries recently some terrible tragedies involving children and the social and health workers were blamed for the problem, but perhaps the support they needed to provide a comprehensive service was not there in the first instance. I welcome this Bill which will provide, to a large extent, the support and help needed to provide adequate services, particularly the preventative area.

As a society we are very strong on the family unit and the position of the family is safeguarded in the Constitution. Every effort should be made to ensure that the family unit is maintained and the separation of families should be a last resort. The existing agencies should get the backup services necessary to prevent anything like this happening, because all children have a right to a secure family environment and foster care should be a last resort. There are many foster parents doing a tremendous job providing a very happy environment for needy children; but difficulties can arise, for instance, in the area are of medical treatment or issuing passports. Legislative support is very much needed where passports for these children are concerned. It is important that due consideration be given to these issues. I hope to have an opportunity to speak on this Bill on Committee Stage.

I will confine my observations to one comment. I thank Deputies for their contributions but I have great difficulty in thinking Deputy Glenn for her contribution because, frankly, I think she has some appallingly erroneous misconceptions about the thrust and import of this legislation. The only charitable response I can make is that, if she wishes to meet me and the officers of my Department, we will exert every effort to dispel these serious misconceptions. I very much regret that she named in this House four or five people who are not Deputies and who have no opportunity of refuting the implications on their personal integrity. I express my concern to those individuals who are concerned about child care and who do not deserve to be pilloried in such a way by any Deputy in this House.

Debated adjourned.

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