(Limerick West): There is provision in this section to allow the trustees to purchase or take on lease premises for the purpose of providing offices for the trustees. Since the trustees have been in operation for the past 40 or 50 years, can the Minister explain why premises are now required? What has become of the existing premises?
Slaughtered and Detained Animals (Compensation) Bill, 1985: Committee and Final Stages.
Section 1 agreed to.
SECTION 2.
Question proposed: "That section 2 stand part of the Bill".
The existing premises are rented from the Livestock Insurance Board on the North Circular Road. These premises are being offered for sale so they have no choice but to purchase the premises.
(Limerick West): I take it that they must acquire alternative premises since the existing premises are no longer available?
Yes. That is right.
(Limerick West): Where are those premises situated?
In the North Circular Road.
(Limerick West): What is the area of the premises?
I have no idea.
Question put and agreed to.
SECTION 3.
Question proposed: "That section 3 stand part of the Bill."
(Limerick West): I know the purpose of section 3 is to allow the trustees to fix the compensation or salary that would be paid to the secretary. The Minister might confirm if it is necessary to have a secretary appointed. If he will be so appointed, will it be on a part time basis or is this solely a matter for the trustees to decide whether he will be part time or whole time? Will the amount of his remuneration be fixed solely at the discretion of the trustees or will the Minister have any say in it?
The Deputy is right. It will be fixed by the trustees with the agreement of the Minister.
(Limerick West): Has the Minister for the Public Service a say in it as well?
Yes. For instance, at the moment the secretary is on a very temporary basis. In the event of renegotiation it would be with the consent of the Minister and the Minister for the Public Service. We deem it to be more appropriate to provide a mechanism for determining the level of remuneration of the secretary than to fix a ceiling for such remuneration.
(Limerick West): Will the Minister fix the ceiling?
No.
(Limerick West): Will the trustees do so?
Yes.
(Limerick West): Since the function of the trustees is to a large extent being updated — if, indeed, they have any function in the present day situation under the 1928 and 1938 Acts — is it necessary at all to have a secretary to the trustees? If so, will the secretary's remuneration be procured from the funds that are already invested by the trustees?
Apparently they hold meetings and in the event of claims they consider the claims. They convene regularly.
(Limerick West): At this stage the Minister might confirm, with regard to the appointment of the trustees, whether they are appointed solely at the discretion of the trade or has anybody else any right of nomination of the trustees?
Nobody else. It is the trade.
(Limerick West): Can I say then that the function of the Minister's Department is to be more or less a sort of vehicle to enable this legislation to be updated?
Correct.
Question put and agreed to.
SECTION 4.
Question proposed: "That section 4 stand part of the Bill."
(Limerick West): The provision in the Principal Act was that the export charges laid down in that Act will in future be fixed by regulations made by the Minister after consultation with the trustees. The charges which were in operation when charges ceased to be collected are, of course, insignificant in present day ratings. Is there a likelihood of those charges being re-introduced? If so, will the amounts be determined by the trustees with the approval of the Minister for Agriculture? Does the Minister envisage any instance in the future when these charges will be reintroduced? I understand that they were there solely in the event of an outbreak of foot and mouth disease; but, with our entry into the EC and the changing of the regulations there where we have not this disease free status as laid down by the EC, how relevant will the charge as outlined in section 4 of this Bill be with regard to the scale of charges? I will come back again on that.
The collection of the export levies has been suspended since 1973. Since then the amount of money in the compensation fund has exceeded the £40,000, which was the level considered in the Act as being sufficient to meet any charges which might be expected to be paid out of the fund. Payments from the fund when last made in 1963 were very small. The scale of charges which would be applicable if the levies were reintroduced are those fixed in the 1928 Act — that would be 2½d for cattle and 1d and ½d respectively for pigs and sheep. This section merely amends the 1928 Act by providing for the fixing at a realistic level of any new charges by ministerial order.
I would like to add that it is most unlikely that levies will be introduced in the near future. As mentioned, the compensation fund exceeded £40,000 in 1973 and this sum has been earning interest over the years. The balance in the fund at present is in excess of £132,000. The livestock trade are satisfied that even after the purchase of the office premises, which they will be able to do under the Bill, there will be more than enough money in the fund to meet any unforeseeable payment. Deputies will be aware of the steady decline in the level of live cattle exports to Britain in recent years. The last outbreak of foot and mouth disease in Britain was in 1981 in the Isle of Wight and before that the last major outbreak occurred in 1968. While one can never be dogmatic about disease outbreaks, it is reasonable to assume that with the present veterinary certification disease tests and import controls the likelihood of another foot and mouth disease outbreak in Britain is rather remote. The compensation fund, therefore, is more of an insurance safety net which can be used in the unlikely event of a disease outbreak causing losses for the Irish cattle exporter.
(Limerick West): The Minister is right. Nobody can be dogmatic about the likelihood of an outbreak. I know that it pertains only to live cattle, but in the event of an outbreak of foot and mouth disease in Britain the compensation fund at the moment, at something in excess of £100,000, surely is inadequate to meet any emergency that may arise. Therefore, is it envisaged then that, in the event of the fund being inadequate to meet the demand in the event of an outbreak, the charges will be increased subsequently and that the people who suffer will be recouped subsequently, or is any regulation made for that?
To go back on a point the Deputy made, the amount of the fees will be determined by the Minister after consultation with the trustees. On the other point mentioned by the Deputy, our Department have been in contact with the trustees on this. The number of live cattle on the way to the UK at any one time is relatively small. If there were an outbreak we would there and then stop all exports. We anticipated that the Deputy would probably make that point. We are happy with the situation.
(Limerick West): Therefore, in the event of there being damage or loss to the exporters, in the Minister's opinion the fund is adequate enough to meet any such contingencies?
That is the opinion of the advisers.
When this Bill was brought in, our live cattle exports were mainly to the UK. We were very dependent on that live cattle export market. However, that trend has changed and a very minimal number of live cattle are being exported to the UK now. What is the position as regards the new markets which have been opened up and to which we are sending substantial numbers of live cattle, for example, the Middle East, particularly Libya? Will those exports be covered?
The exporters themselves in that case prefer to do their own insurance and they provide this.
I take it that an outbreak of foot and mouth disease outside the area mentioned will be outside the scope of this Bill?
The Bill is dealing only with export to the United Kingdom.
Trade with the UK is dwindling and dying as far as our live export trade is concerned, because of competition. The trend is likely to be that exports will be coming in here rather than going out. Is there any provision for that situation in the Bill?
No, this merely deals with exports.
Question put and agreed to.
SECTION 5.
Question proposed: "That section 5 stand part of the Bill."
(Limerick West): There is a provision whereby the Minister may, by letter signed by him addressed to the secretary of the trustees, require the trustees to wind up their affairs. I presume this would be done only at the behest of the trade? I am assuming that so long as the trade feel it is necessary to have the trustees in operation, the Minister would not interfere?
No.
(Limerick West): I am right then in assuming that. Paragraph (B) (ii) provides:
The termination of an appointment referred to in subparagraph (i) of this paragraph shall be on such terms as may be agreed between the Trustees with the concurrence of the Minister for the Public Service and the other person concerned, or, in default of such an agreement, as may be determined by the Minister for the Public Service.
Does it not occur to the Minister that the Minister for the Public Service appears to have undue powers which do not really concern him? His powers seem to override those of the Minister for Agriculture who, in the final analysis, should be the best judge of the situation at any time.
Subsection (3) states: "Notwithstanding subsection (2) of this section, the Trustees shall not assign, surrender or otherwise dispose of their interest in any premises acquired or taken on lease by them without the prior approval of the Minister." The Minister would have a say not only in the winding up of the trustees but also in the disposing of their assets. He would have the final say as to how they should and can be disposed of.
The original Act did not make provision for the winding up of the trustees or for the termination of the employment of the secretary to the trustees. All this section does is to empower the trustees to wind up their affairs, either on foot of a direction given by the Minister or, indeed, a decision taken by them with the concurrence of the national executive of the livestock trade. We have included in this section a mechanism by which the trustees may terminate the employment of their secretary — obviously if they were going out of business — on terms agreed between themselves and their secretary with the concurrence of the Minister for the Public Service or, failing such agreement, on terms determined by the Minister for the Public Service.
This will ensure that, if the secretary is not satisfied with the terms offered by the trustees, he or she can refer the matter to the Minister for the Public Service who will then determine the appropriate terms. It is well to remember that the Slaughtered and Detained Animals Fund was set up at the request of the livestock trade. It is wholly financed by the trade. It is only reasonable to make provision for the winding up of the fund and the ending of the employment of the secretary whenever the trade decide that they no longer require the system. The disposal of any premises acquired by the trustees is made subject to the Minister's prior approval.
(Limerick West): Would the Minister comment on my reference to the Minister for the Public Service having seemingly overriding powers? With all due respect, he could override the decision of the Minister for Agriculture and, after all, he is the man with the authority.
As things stand at the moment, whether we like it or not, the reference to the Minister for the Public Service is necessary to ensure that the implications of any settlement do not affect other sectors.
(Limerick West): I presume this is the same type of terminology that would be used in all Bills of that nature?
It is in the Insurance Act, as well.
Question put and agreed to.
SECTION 6.
Question proposed: "That section 6 stand part of the Bill."
(Limerick West): This seems to be a section which is revising some of the sections in the old Act to meet the present day situation. For the benefit of the House could the Minister outline briefly what is contained in this section?
This is a lengthy section and looks difficult, but there is really not much in it. Where a direction is given or a decision taken to wind up the affairs of the trustees, paragraphs (i) and (ii) require the trustees to prepare a final account for the period of their existence beginning on the first day of the financial year in which such direction was given or decision taken and ending on a date after the expiration of the period laid down for the receipt of claims for compensation against the trustees. Paragraph (iii) lays down a time limit of six months for the making of claims for compensation. Paragraph (iv) requires the trustees to publish a notice specifying the final period during which claims for compensation will be entertained.
Paragraph (v) (11) provides for the repeal of those sections of the 1928 and 1932 Acts concerned with the appointment of trustees, scales of charges, methods of payment of charges and the making of rules by the trustees. Paragraph (v) (1) provides for the repeal of section 4 (2) of this Bill which is concerned with the fixing of the scale of charges by Ministerial order. Subsection (2) requires the secretary to the trustees to submit to the Minister a copy of the final account together with a copy of the auditor's report thereon. Subsection (3) requires that the final audited account be made available on request to persons engaged in the livestock trade. This provision merely provides for the technical steps to be taken for the winding up of the affairs of the trustees. The trustees must prepare final accounts and deal with outstanding claims. Certain provisions of the Acts will be repealed and the final accounts will be made available to the Minister and the livestock trade on request.
(Limerick West): Will the final accounts be made available to the House?
There is no obligation to make them available to the House. They will be made available to the Minister and the trade and, as there will be no great secret about them, I am sure that if there was a request they would be made available.
(Limerick West): This only occurs in the event of the winding up of the affairs of the trustees.
Precisely.
If there is a surplus in the fund when the trustees are being wound up what will happen to it?
That will be dealt with under another section.
Question put and agreed to.
SECTION 7.
Question proposed: "That section 7 stand part of the Bill."
(Limerick West): Will the Minister comment on this section?
My last question relates to section 7.
Under this section the national executive of the Irish Livestock Trade are required to give advice, if so requested, as to how any moneys remaining in the fund on winding up should be disposed of. However, the prerogative will rest with the Minister whether to seek such advice or, if sought, whether to accept such advice; and in either case the trustees are required to comply with the Minister's direction in the matter of disposal of residual money. This provision is to cover a situation where funds may remain in the compensation fund after it has been wound up and after the trustees have discharged all outstanding liabilities. It may of course happen that there will be no residual moneys remaining. In that case no problem arises. However, if some funds remain the national executive of the Irish Live Stock Trade can advise the Minister as to what should be done with these funds. If no advice is sought, or if he does not accept that advice, the Minister can determine what should happen to the money.
(Limerick West): The powers of the trustees are limited to the payment out of the funds within their possession of compensation in the event of there being claims and payment to the secretary to the trustees. The trustees will have the power to pay for the renting or purchasing of premises and other overheads but I am anxious to know if there is any way in which the trustees can dispose of moneys in a manner that may not be acceptable to the Minister.
In the course of their day to day business the trustees may invest money, something they have done wisely so far.
(Limerick West): In the winding up of their affairs any investments will have to come into the reckoning. Will the disposal of that and other money be determined by the Minister of the day?
That is correct. Section 7, which provides for the disposal of the residual funds, is based on a similar provision in legislation enacted to wind up the Livestock Insurance Board.
Question put and agreed to.
SECTION 8.
Question proposed: "That section 8 stand part of the Bill."
(Limerick West): I presume this section deals with the dissolution of the trustees. Is this a statutory power held by the Minister?
Yes.
(Limerick West): Is that all that is involved?
Yes.
Question put and agreed to.
SECTION 9.
Question proposed: "That section 9 stand part of the Bill."
(Limerick West): Will the Minister explain this provision?
The section provides for the repeal of the Slaughtered and Detained Animals Compensation Acts, 1928 to 1938, on the commencement of an order under this Bill dissolving the trustees. The section also provides for the repeal of this Bill after the commencement of this order.
Question put and agreed to.
Section 10 agreed to.
Title agreed to.
Bill reported without amendment and passed.