asked the Minister for Communications the total cost incurred to date by the Exchequer arising from the liquidation of Irish Shipping; and if he can give an estimate of the final expected cost.
Ceisteanna — Questions. Oral Answers. - Irish Shipping.
10.
The total cost incurred to date by the Exchequer arising from the liquidation of Irish Shipping Limited is £15 million approximately. The estimated total cost of the liquidation to the Exchequer will be of the order of just under £50 million.
Does that £50 million estimated total cover all the costs of the Irish Spruce as well as the costs of liquidation? Is everything included in that? Could the Minister give us an indication of how that £50 million is calculated?
It is an all inclusive figure. To be more precise, the figure would be about £48.5 million at the moment but that is subject to change depending on exchange rates and other factors. It might be a little lower than that at this stage. That is all inclusive. It includes all costs associated with the liquidation and the guarantees of the Minister for Finance for Irish Shipping.
Can the Minister separate the costs and can he give a hard figure for the liquidator's expenses? Will he confirm that the costs which he gave me in round figures as £30,000 per week would be roughly £1,200,000 to date?
First of all, the liquidator's costs have nothing to do with me. The total cost altogether——
What about the taxpayer?
The total guarantees by the Minister for Finance are clear. The liquidator's costs are fixed by the court which appointed him and they will fall to be paid out of the total guarantees made by the Minister for Finance but will not alter those sums, to any significant extent at any rate. The guarantees in respect of Irish Shipping borrowings which the Minister for Finance is called upon to meet will be about £36 million. The Irish Shipping share of the Irish Spruce costs will be of the order of £9 million and the costs in relation to the Irish Spruce will be of the order of £2.5 million, giving a total of under £50 million. I should say that the current estimate of the cost of not liquidating and going ahead at this stage would have been about £220 million.
That is a bit of a whack.
In relation to those costs, how much of that estimate of £50 million is for the redundancy payments etc. to the staff of Irish Shipping? Is that covered at all in the costs he has given to date?
If I had notice of that question I would try to get the information for the Deputy. I have not got that information here. The costs I have mentioned, around £48 million, are the total cost to the Minister for Finance of the liquidation of Irish Shipping. This compares with the current Estimate of about £220 million had we continued. I want to elaborate on this because I have had to listen to RTE for several days and to read in the newspapers about all sorts of fictional figures being thrown in as if they were fact by people who are very emotionally involved. I want to give the facts of the matter here so that there is no misunderstanding. At the time of the liquidation, and assuming certain projections as to tramp shipping rates, we estimated a total cost, if we had continued, of something just over £200 million.
That is what the headlines say.
These are the facts of the matter. I am sure Deputy Wilson is not disputing the veracity of what I am saying. Since then tramp shipping rates have deteriorated, as I will show in another question coming up. Because of that deterioration the present estimated cost would be of the order of close to £220 million. The House will see that the decision we took was unavoidable. No other decision was possible. It would have cost the taxpayer something of the order of another £170 million to keep going.
Is the Minister aware that there have been reports——
There are only two minutes left.
——that negotiations with regard to figures and amounts of money are going on at present in Marseilles on board the Irish Spruce? Has he included those figures for the crew in the figures he has given the House?
I have included an estimate for those figures. That is why I cannot be absolutely precise.
I can understand that.
In the figure I have given probably I am erring on the generous side.
I would be quite prepared to dispute the figures of £200 million that the Minister has given in view of the change in the value——
You cannot dispute them.
——of the dollar to the pound etc. and interest rates. In pursuance of the questions which I was asking the Minister in relation to the employees of Irish Shipping, this was what I had in mind when I was asking about the liquidator who has gone out today to Marseilles. Is it the liquidator's job to deal with the matter of payments due to the employees? Is that the reason why the Minister does not include it in his estimated cost? Would the amount paid to the 252 employees of Irish Shipping Limited eventually be included in the liquidator's cost?
In a liquidation, a liquidator is responsible for seeing to it that the provisions of law in relation to employees are met, in other words as far as statutory redundancy payments are concerned and salary due to those people and pay in respect of leave and other entitlements under the law. In addition, in this case the liquidator has been acting as an agent because the staff of the Irish Spruce were kept on for the past year and three months. Under those circumstances he was asked not to make these people redundant, but to retain them in employment. The best administrative way of doing this was for him to continue to pay them and be reimbursed. That forms part of the guarantees of the Minister for Finance. They are part of the £48 million to £50 million about which I was talking.
Is that just for the 252 employees? What about the other part?
They are out of the overall guarantees.
I am sorry, Deputy. I must move to questions nominated for priority.
I am sorry I cannot answer Question No. 19. It would give the House some indication of how transshipping rates have deteriorated.
I do not blame the Minister for not being able to answer it.