It is proposed to take item No. 18. By agreement, Members will be called in the debate today as follows: 10.30 a.m. to 10.43 a.m. Fianna Fáil; 10.43 a.m. to 11.13 a.m. Government; 11.13 a.m. to 11.43 a.m. Opposition; 11.43 a.m. to 12.13 p.m. Government; 12.13 p.m. to 12.43 p.m. Fianna Fáil; 12.43 p.m. to 1.13 p.m. Government; 1.13 p.m. to 1.43 p.m. Fianna Fáil; 1.43 to 2.13 p.m. Government; 2.13 p.m. to 2.43 p.m. Fianna Fáil; 2.43 p.m. to 3 p.m. Government; 3 p.m. to 3.15 p.m. Fianna Fáil; 3.15 to 4 p.m. Taoiseach.
Order of Business.
Is the order of speakers agreed?
(Interruptions.)
I try to be fair, and even if I were to work it out on a mathematical basis I would not please everyone. During the Opposition period, that is from 11.13 a.m. to 11.43 a.m., I propose to call Deputy O'Malley for 20 minutes and Deputy Mac Giolla for ten minutes. The more time that is wasted arguing about this now the less time there will be for talking.
We had not got that procedure before we arrived here and that is why we are asking for clarification.
The Deputy is not being entirely fair. I did him the courtesy of 'phoning him.
I am quite aware of that but I had not the details at the time. I just want to ask a question for clarification. Does this mean that these arrangements were made by agreement between the Whips?
They are for the agreement of the House now but the Deputy can object to them if he wishes.
I am simply asking for clarification of how the arrangements were made. I take it they are not arrangements made by the Chair?
No, they are not. They are not made yet, Deputy. I am putting them to the House now for agreement.
I am making the point that it seems that arrangements like this are increasingly being made, not by the Chair, but by the Whips, and not just the Order of Business of the House, but the manner in which business is conducted in this Chamber, is increasingly being arranged outside this Chamber, both as regards the order of speakers and time of speakers, which is unprecedended. These are matters for the Chair alone to decide.
That is not accurate. What has happened is that the Whips of the two main parties have put these proposals together, and I am putting them to the House for agreement.
I want to join in protesting at this arrangement. It is most unacceptable. Until yesterday morning the only amendment to this motion that appeared on the Order Paper was in my name. I assumed I would be allowed to move the only amendment down originally to this motion. I am taken aback, to say the least of it, to find that, by courtesy of the Whips of the two main parties, I am to be allowed less time to speak on this debate than anybody else. I do not think that is a very democratic situation. With respect, I would point out that if the Chair is going to abrogate its responsibility to call speakers in this House and to direct affairs within this House, then I think every Deputy in the long run is the loser.
The Chair does not intend to give away his right to call speakers because in the ultimate, it is the right of the Chair, subject to an order of the House. It is wrong to say that these arrangements are being made by the Whips; they are put to the House at the request of the Whips.
(Interruptions.)
If the Whips of the two main parties decide on something they have 90 per cent of the Members of the House and can force everything through. This is against all the traditions of this House and against the rights of the individual Members of the House. It is no coincidence that this has been happening in the last couple of months. We know perfectly well why it has been happening. The time will come when the people's voice and rights will be fully represented in this House, and not the way they are now. In the meantime, this effort has been made by two large frightened parties to ensure that nobody other than themselves can speak. I have to look and all of us have to look to the Chair for protection against that type of situation which should not be tolerated.
The Chair has gone out of his way to be fair to Deputy O'Malley and to Deputy Mac Giolla. The Chair is satisfied that by offering — it is probably not possible now — 20 minutes to Deputy O'Malley and ten minutes to Deputy Mac Giolla they are getting fair play and more than they would strictly be entitled to if it was worked out on a mathematical basis. I do not believe that it will now be possible to carry out these proposals because it is now 20 minutes to 11.
It is extraordinary that Deputy Mac Giolla sat here yesterday before any order of the House was made and offered a number of times to speak and was not called upon, despite the fact that on some occasions he was virtually the only person on the Opposition benches. Now a new order is being made limiting the time which he may speak to ten minutes despite the fact that an order was made yesterday that each speaker other than the Taoiseach and Deputy Haughey could speak for 30 minutes. That is now being limited in relation to Deputies Mac Giolla and O'Malley. I ask the Ceann Comhairle to say why, despite the fact that an order was not made yesterday in relation to who should be called, or the order in which they should be called, Deputy Mac Giolla was not called? Why is it found necessary now for the Whips of the main Opposition party and the Government party to attempt to restrict the time available to Deputy Mac Giolla? Ten minutes is virtually useless. It took no more votes to elect other Deputies to this House than it did to elect Deputy Mac Giolla and other Deputies can speak for half an hour. If the figures were examined, Deputy Mac Giolla probably got more votes than many Deputies.
(Interruptions.)
The reality is that no Deputies in this House have more rights than any other Deputy. For that reason I argue that we should be permitted half an hour, the same as every other Deputy in the House.
The Chair must have regard to the time available for the entire debate and to all parties in the House. The Chair has shown that he does that. The Chair must have regard to the size of those parties and must have regard to the fact that there is a party with 70 Members in the House, and two parties in Government with 80 members, or whatever it is. The Chair is satisfied——
(Interruptions.)
The Chair is satisfied that fair play was given yesterday and proposes to give that today. I do not know if it will now be possible to carry out that proposal. Is this proposal agreed to or objected to?
I object to it.
Is this being pressed?
I am putting the question: "That Members will be called in the debate today as follows: from 10.30 a.m. to 10.43, Fianna Fáil; 10.43 to 11.13, Government; 11.13 to 11.43, Opposition; 11.43 to 12.13, Government; 12.13 to 12.43, Fianna Fáil; 12.43 to 1.13, Government; 1.13 to 1.43, Fianna Fáil; 1.43 to 2.13, Government; 2.13 to 2.43, Fianna Fáil; 2.43 to 3 o'clock, Government; 3 o'clock to 3.15, Fianna Fáil and 3.15, to 4 o'clock, the Taoiseach."
Question declared carried.
I want to make the point——
I am getting on with the business.
——that we have not challenged a vote on this, simply to save time.
(Interruptions.)