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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 26 Feb 1986

Vol. 364 No. 2

Courts (No. 2) Bill, 1986: Second Stage (Resumed).

Question again proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

Deputy Woods seems to have some trouble with the seat in front of him. It is not just the Minister he is kicking; it seems to be the furniture as well. Before the sos, I was dealing with the concerns expressed by him about what he regarded as the retrospective nature of one of the provisions in this Bill which is designed to ensure that appeals lodged before the passing of the measure would be heard by the High Court on circuit sitting in Galway next week. I was saying that the provision does not seem retrospective in the accepted definition of the word. What we are doing is simply recognising the very reason why the Bill is in the House and making sure that appeals that were lodged before the passing of the measure, and in some cases before the declaration of the status of Galway as a county borough, could properly be heard by an appeal court in the designated town after the passage of this measure. It is not retrospective legislation in that it does not look back. I would contend that it is forward-looking in its nature because it provides for the closing of a loophole that might otherwise exist. If we did not have this provision in the Bill it could be the case that a number of appeals would fall into a kind of limbo in which they could not properly be heard.

I am not at all convinced by Deputy Woods's contention that the situation that has pertained since 1 January last has left citizens on any side scale in a state of uncertainty. As I mentioned, the situation which the Bill is intended to cope with was brought to my notice by legal advice, by people who saw the emergence of the problem some time after the conditions for the problem's existence had come about. I do not think there is any great degree of uncertainty about it. The passage of this measure will remove any uncertainty that might exist.

Deputy Woods, and indeed other Members of the House, take issue with the Bill not in terms of its substance but in terms of what it is doing because they believe that this is an example of piecemeal legislation. I would have to say that that kind of comment elevates the Bill to a status which it does not deserve. It is not piecemeal legislation in that it does not address any of the more fundamental issues of the administration of justice which have been mentioned by various Deputies on both sides of the House. It deals only with one very particular situation that has arisen and provides that the administration of justice, as we now know it, can continue uninterruptedly as far as people who have litigation in the city of Galway are concerned.

The other concerns which Deputies have mentioned are in most cases valid, even though the language used by one or two Members has been a shade picturesque. The concerns underlying their remarks are valid and would need to be addressed. I can assure the House that Members of this House will find in me a ready listener to those concerns. I would be anxious in so far as possible to make progress along the general lines they have set out. I am not a great ornithologist and I am not sure if I would know the difference——

You know a bit about the birds.

I do not know if I would know the difference between a carrion crow and any other kind of crow.

A predator, like a vulture.

A bird of prey, I was about to say. I will not even yield to the temptation that is brought to me by the picture I have in my mind of Deputy Flynn perched at the end of the roost. I will not say a word about that.

(Interruptions.)

Deputy Woods asked the question if I had any intention of adding or removing other counties or other county boroughs or in any other way adjusting the circuits in question here. At present I can say that I have no such intention, but the provision is included in the Bill so that in the event that this situation arises again we will not have to pass another Bill. The legislation will therefore give the Minister for Justice, long may he reign, the means of dealing with it without having to put the House, and Deputy Woods in particular, to the inconvenience to which they have been put.

The duke is in his fiefdom.

It provides that particular provision for the making of orders. That is already covered under the 1936 Act. The orders, as Deputy Woods pointed out, are made after consultation with the Judiciary in the manner prescribed.

A number of other questions were raised, particularly by Deputy Geoghegan-Quinn, about the condition of courthouses in general and the condition of the courthouse in Galway in particular. The situation is that the maintenance of court buildings throughout the country generally is a matter for the local authorities. As Deputy Geoghegan-Quinn has recalled to me the fact that Galway County Council — I am not sure of the situation in Galway Borough Council——

They pay 28 per cent.

——are shortly coming to the point where they will fix an estimate for the year. I am quite sure that, given the concerns voiced by Deputy Geoghegan-Quinn here, Galway County Council will take all of the measures available to them to ensure that they have the revenue from all the various sources that are open to them to make their contribution to the maintenance of courthouses and to the other concerns which fall within their remit.

There is a difference in relation to Dublin in that the Office of Public Works are responsible for courts in Dublin with two minor exceptions. Elsewhere, as I have said, the local authorities are responsible under the Courthouses Provision and Maintenance Act, 1935.

Many of the other issues which were raised in passing, although in some cases they were very slow in passing, seem to me to be outside the scope of this Bill. We probably would find a more appropriate opportunity for discussing those in the House in the near future.

The matter in relation to delays was raised. I want to deal with it very briefly, as it appears to be germane to the issue we are discussing. There does not seem to be a particular problem of delay with appeals. What we are doing is taking a measure that will facilitate the hearing of appeals in the circumstances addressed by this Bill. The more general question of delays is not affected by this measure, although I would have to make the point that the delays in general are not as serious as Deputies seem to believe. I can assure the House that, in so far as it is within my power to take measures which will expedite the administration of justice, I will be happy to do that.

I cannot answer Deputy GeogheganQuinn's specific question as to how many appeals are waiting to be heard in Galway which will be affected by this measure. I would repeat the point that delays in the hearing of appeals do not constitute a substantial problem. The more general problem of delays is outside the scope of the measure we are taking.

That covers most of the points that have been raised. If there are points that I have not adverted to, it is because I do not believe that in the context of this debate it would be appropriate for me, for example, to make any comments about wigs and gowns although I will admit that in relation both to our legal system and on the religious side personally I find that there is a certain value in ceremony.

The wig keeps the brain warm.

I will admit to a certain weakness for a degree of ceremony as a means of adding a sense of either dignity or occasion. Indeed, Sir, it is always a pleasure to contemplate yourself in the gown of your office. There is a particular value in that.

Truly spoken. It would be appropriate for the Ceann Comhairle to get a wig.

If anything, it adds to the natural authority of the Chair.

That concludes the remarks I wish to make on Second Stage. I want to thank the House again for facilitating me in the processing of this measure. Given the very restricted scope of the measure it has proved possible to give it a thorough ventilation and to examine all of the issues that arise and at least to wipe the dust off a number of the issues that do not arise.

A question, Deputy Wilson.

I read the Minister's speech and the non-Galway Borough Council part of it referred to powers as regards the High Court. In view of the fact that the Cavan town courthouse is in a dangerous condition, that the courts are no longer being held there and that the alternative Bailieboro courthouse also has been found wanting, is there any power in the Bill that the Minister may take to remove courts from County Cavan? We would look on this with some apprehension.

On the issue of courthouses in particular places, the maintenance of courthouses is a matter for the local authorities. There is nothing in this Bill that would affect that. Indirectly there is a provision in this Bill, section 1(b), which could confer on the Minister for Justice the power to alter the composition of a High Court circuit by adding to or removing from the circuit a county or counties.

That is what I was afraid of.

There is no other change in any of the circuits that I have in mind at the moment. If the Deputy wishes to make a suggestion to me about one that I might consider, he is free to do so and if he wishes to tell me there is one I should not consider, I will consider that too.

We have a lovely 19th century courthouse with a Doric facade, but what is behind the facade is in a very serious condition. It has gone a little further than just the fact that the courts are not being held there. There has been a law case about it. Will the Minister address himself to this as the citizens are suffering severely because of the lack of courthouse accommodation? It is a difficult problem and I know it is a very expensive reconstruction job, but it is a beautiful classic building and we are worried about the future.

Question put and agreed to.
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