asked the Minister for Foreign Affairs the steps he is taking to ensure that questions of European defence are not discussed in the context of European political co-operation.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - European Defence Discussion.
22.
Defence matters as such do not fall within the scope of European political co-operation. Discussion of security questions within European political co-operation is clearly confined to the political and economic aspects of security. The provisions on European co-operation in the sphere of foreign policy, which were recently agreed in the context of the Single European Act, formalise the existing practice in this regard and confine the scope of security discussions within European political co-operation to the political and economic aspects of security only.
I know we have to await until the draft treaty before we come to definitive conclusions——
The Deputy has it.
We must await a debate in the House on it. Clause 6 (a) purports to limit co-ordination of security to political and economic aspects but it does not exclude discussions on military aspects. Would the Minister agree that the nonexclusion of military aspects leaves scope for Ireland being involved in discussions of a military nature outside of what has heretofore been regarded as security in the economic and political sense? Would the Minister not agree that this non-exclusion leaves it open to other countries to take that interpretation? Furthermore will the Minister support or reject the statement which has come to our notice that at the last Council meeting military matters were discussed by some of the powers at such a meeting of political co-operation.
A Deputy with as much experience as Deputy Lenihan should continue his observations on article 6 (a) to include paragraphs (b) and (c) as well. Article 6 (a) is not the only part of it. Article 6 (c) says that, recognising the fact that the military aspects of security do not come within the scope of new arrangements for EPC, those partners who wish to co-operate more closely on security matters, that is on military and defence questions, may do so within NATO and the Western European Union, organisations to which Ireland does not belong.
They may do so.
It is quite clear if one reads article 6 (a), (b) and (c) that there is a clear distinction between political and economic security matters and defence matters. Article 6 (c) says that those countries who wish to discuss the military aspects of defence should do so in NATO or at the Western European Union and we are not a member of either of those bodies.
Is there any exclusion of those military matters being discussed by these countries at meetings of European Political Co-operation? Our information is that military matters are discussed by these countries at these meetings. That opens the door to a dangerous situation.
That is not correct. Deputy Lenihan, of all Deputies in this House, knows better than anyone else, because he was the first Minister for Foreign Affairs to go to an EPC meeting in Europe, that the arrangements have been quite clear during our negotiations for entry, during the Accession Treaty negotiations, and during debates in this House prior to entry, and that military and defence matters were not within the remit of European Political Co-operation. That has not changed in the intervening years. During that period, as Deputy Lenihan will know, other Foreign Ministers, forgetting which meeting they were at, have strayed into the area of discussing defences, strategic defence weapons and that sort of thing. That has happened on three or four occasions when I was present. I am sure it happened when Deputy Lenihan was Minister for Foreign Affairs. That is what happened on 27 January last or whatever date it was. I drew the attention of my colleagues to the fact that it was an inappropriate discusion for a European Political Co-operation meeting and that, if they wished to pursue it, they should discuss it in NATO or at the Western European Union. They accepted that, apologised and were ready to transfer the discussion elsewhere.
Have we got an assurance from the Minister that there is no change in the situation as far as we are concerned within the ambit of European Political Co-operation, that the treaty, which I presume will come before the House for discussion and ratification, does not change the situation with regard to our political involvement?
That is correct.