asked the Minister for Defence if he will inform the House of the number and cost of the Army staff cars that are provided; if he feels this cost is justified and, if so, the reason; the cost of maintaining the whole Army; if he considers that the whole policy of maintaining an Army should be re-examined; if he will do so; and if he will make a statement on the matter.
Ceisteanna — Questions. Oral Answers. - Army Costs.
1.
The Permanent Defence Force have in operation at present 72 saloon cars which were purchased over the past ten years. Details of the total cost involved are not readily available but I can inform the Deputy that the cost of 11 vehicles purchased in recent years amounted to £102,700.
Saloon cars are used to carry military personnel whenever possible in the interests of economy and to preserve the more expensive operational vehicles. I am satisfied that the cost of providing these vehicles is fully justified.
The provision in the 1986 Defence Estimate is £252.415 million.
There will be an opportunity to debate defence policy when the 1986 Estimate for Defence is presented to the Dáil for consideration.
Would the Minister agree that 72 saloon cars maintained by the Army seems an excessive amount by any standard? While information is not available as to the cost, can the Minister tell us what the cars are used for apart from carrying military personnel? Who uses them and what is the purpose of having that size of fleet available?
Military transport is requisitioned and allocated in accordance with Defence Force regulations. That includes the conveyance of military stores and equipment and also the conveyance of military personnel when such personnel are on duty. In the context of the conveying of military personnel, I should point out that it has been a long standing practice to provide four saloon cars, primarily for the official use of the Chief of Staff, the Adjutant General, the Quartermaster-General and the Assistant Chief of Staff. This practice derives from the official demands made on these officers.
I presume that the 72 saloon cars are Army staff cars, that they would not be used for conveying military equipment but rather entirely for the conveying of personnel. Would the Minister agree that in a State the size of ours a figure of £252 million — which is greater than the overall Garda budget, less than the IDA budget and equivalent to approximately 12½ per cent of the total revenue from tax in this State — cannot be justified to maintain——
That is more appropriate on the Estimate. We could not possibly discuss——
Would the Minister not agree that that warrants re-examination? Given the recent Anglo-Irish Agreement one might well ask who will attack the State and do we need the Defence Forces at all?
I am not going to allow that type of discussion at Question Time. It is appropriate for an Estimate debate.
You allowed the question, a Cheann Comhairle.
I allowed the question but the Deputy does not have to——
The Minister did not give me an answer with regard to the cost. He gave a figure of £252 million and he did not reply with regard to the whole policy of maintaining an Army, whether that policy should be re-examined.
I would love to answer the question if you will permit me, a Cheann Comhairle. The figures mentioned by the Deputy in relation to the Garda force are erroneous. I do not agree that the amount of money allocated in the Estimate for the Army is exorbitant. If the Deputy were aware of the multifarious functions that the Army have to carry out under our Constitution he would be aware that this kind of money is needed in order to ensure that those functions are fulfilled.
May I ask a brief supplementary? The Minister mentioned a figure of 72 saloon cars. Then he mentioned, separately, 11 vehicles. I got the impression that there were 11 other cars. I wondered if the 72 included the 11.
Yes.
And does the figure include the four for official use?
The 11 vehicles I mentioned were the number of cars purchased in recent years. The vast bulk of these cars are between five and ten years old.
Would I be correct in arriving at a rough estimate of a total capital cost of something of the order of £700,000? In view of the economic situation generally would the Minister review the need for a very expansive fleet of cars for the apparently nebulous concept of carrying military personnel?
That is not a short supplementary by any standard.
I am sorry it is not as brief as I had intended. I do not trouble you too often these days, a Cheann Comhairle, and I have the same rights as any other Member.
Yes, but no more.
I am simply asking the Minister whether we can justify that kind of expenditure. I am not asking him to commit himself today. I am simply asking if he will review the matter.
First, I do not accept that the functions carried out are nebulous. Second, I would point out that, as I have said already, the use of these cars in most cases is to save money. Otherwise we would be using operational vehicles which are much more expensive to use and run.
Would the Minister agree that an island nation like ours, from an internal and external point of view, could not afford to do without an Army, indeed could not survive without an Army?
I would definitely agree, yes.