Does the Minister intend to say anything about this?
Irish Nationality and Citizenship Bill, 1985: Committee Stage.
Section 1 agreed to.
SECTION 2.
Question proposed: "That section 2 stand part of the Bill."
Section 2 reads:
Section 7 of the Act of 1956, which relates to formalities to be complied with in certain cases, is hereby amended by the insertion of the following proviso after paragraph (b) of subsection (2):
Section 7 of the 1956 Act reads:
Pending the re-integration of the national territory, subsection (1) of section 6 shall not apply to a person, not otherwise an Irish citizen, born in Northern Ireland on or after the 6th December, 1922, unless, in the prescribed manner, that person, if of full age, declares himself to be an Irish citizen or, if he is not of full age, his parent or guardian declares him to be an Irish citizen. In any such case, the subsection shall be deemed to apply to him from birth.
(2) Neither subsection (2) nor (4) of section 6 shall confer Irish citizenship on a person born outside Ireland if the father or mother through whom he derives citizenship was also born outside Ireland, unless—
(a) that person's birth is registered under section 27, or
(b) his father or mother, as the case may be, was at the time of his birth resident abroad in the public service.
The Minister is proposing in section 2 of this Bill to insert after section 7 (2) (b) of the 1956 Act:
"Provided that the citizenship of a person who is registered under section 27 shall commence only as on and from the date of such registration.".
The first part of section 7 of that Act deals with citizens from Northern Ireland and the second part deals in particular with a father or a mother, as the case may be, who was at the time of the person's birth resident abroad in the public service.
There is no proviso here in relation to the timing in this Act at the moment and the Minister has taken this opportunity to introduce such a proviso, that such citizenship shall commence only as on and from the date of such registration. Is this to remove or to cut out retrospective citizenship and will the retrospective citizenship apply only to people who make a declaration in the North of Ireland in future and not to people whose parents are abroad at the time of their birth?
Under section 6 (1) of the 1956 Act every person born in Ireland is an Irish citizen from birth. Section 6 (2) of that Act provides that every person is an Irish citizen if his father or mother was an Irish citizen at the time of that person's birth. Section 7 (2) provides inter alia that a person outside Ireland whose father or mother from whom he or she derives citizenship was also born outside Ireland shall not be an Irish citizen unless his birth is registered under section 27 of the 1956 Act. The amendment does not refer to Northern Ireland. It refers to persons who are born outside Ireland and who would have to register under section 27 of the 1956 Act.
I take it that persons born in the North will continue to have retrospective citizenship on the making of a declaration. That is not affected because that is in the first part of this section. The amendment the Minister is making here is to the second part of the section which deals specifically with a case where the father or mother was at the time of the person's birth resident abroad in the public service. In such cases does retrospection apply at present or was it just unclear whether retrospection applied at present?
At present retrospection applies and under the amendment it will not apply.
It is quite clear, in any event, that a change is taking place for people in those circumstances. Section 7 (1) on page 445 of the 1956 Act covers that. At present it applies from birth for Northern Ireland and the Minister has made it quite clear that will continue, but take the American Irish for instance. If the person concerned is born in America I take it that person's citizenship would in these circumstances apply only from the date of registration and that he or she would not receive retrospective citizenship to birth and would not be able to benefit from that if it conferred benefit in any circumstances, after this change is introduced. While we are not making a change in relation to people in the North, we are making a change that would affect the American Irish. For instance, if the grandparents were Irish and a grandson or granddaughter wants to become an Irish citizen he or she can be an Irish citizen only from the date of registration and not retrospectively before that.
I will clarify "on citizenship by descent" for the Deputy. Anybody born here is an Irish citizen. The first generation born abroad are Irish. That means that the children of Irish citizens living in America, South Africa or anywhere else are Irish. The second generation born abroad are entitled to citizenship if they register. The third generation born abroad may register if either parent has registered.
If they are entitled to citizenship they are entitled to citizenship retrospective to birth at present and they will not be so in future.
Yes.
Are there any practical examples of this? For instance, if such a person is in America and there is a desire to have that person extradited for crime, political offences, or whatever, what would be the position in those circumstances? If the person wanted to become an Irish citizen and was entitled to do so under this section he could become an Irish citizen only from the date of registration. Would that affect the extradition laws? Would the extradition be based on the date on which the crime was committed, or would it relate to the status of the person on the day he appeared before the court?
I have not the answers to that. I can deal with the retrospection and the position of such persons as citizens depending on the registration of their parents or grandparents. I cannot deal with their position on extradition at present.
I take it the Minister appreciates that I am trying to get at the practical implications. She has explained clearly for me the way in which it will apply, the people to whom it will apply and those to whom it will not apply. As a consequence of that, what would be the practical application? Why bother to do it at all? Why is it introduced? Obviously it is introduced for some reason. I do not know the reason. It is perhaps because the Department or Ministers previously found something anomalous and they want to control it or to do something else. I take it that it is not introduced for no reason at all.
On looking through the Act I found other things that could be amended while this 1985 Bill was being considered. I have suggested one or two and, if I had the time and resources to go through the whole Act, I am sure I could find other things which could be updated given the circumstances of today. I did not do that. I just picked out one or two that related to the area we are dealing with in this Bill and I suggested amendments to be considered on Committee Stage. I must ask myself why the Minister is doing this. Maybe the Minister has some idea at this stage.
The Deputy is perfectly right. The amendment should not be made just for the sake of it. The thinking behind this is that in certain countries there was risk of abuse where people were registering in old age merely to enable their children or grandchildren to benefit.
So we are getting a little nearer to what the reason might be. Elderly people of Irish descent might want to pass on their citizenship to their grandsons, granddaughters, or whatever. Why not let them do that? Why prevent them from doing it now? Did anything they were doing seem to be troublesome or difficult? Surely there cannot be many of them looking for citizenship now as our problem is more one of emigration than immigration? Has there been something undesirable in regard to these developments?
There were ulterior motives and it was a case of using Irish citizenship to get a second passport.
Perhaps the Minister could elaborate. Was this a means of getting into Great Britain by the back door? After all, if they were descended from those wonderful Irish people who went abroad in the past and who established such a great name for us round the world I cannot see why we would be too worried if they had a second passport which was Irish unless there was a reason for being concerned.
It was deemed as a necessary amendment because there was an increase in the number of people apparently who showed no interest in Ireland or in their ancestry for 60 or 70 years but who then saw it as a means whereby their children or grandchildren could get an Irish passport. They also saw it as a means of getting out of the country in which they lived and moving elsewhere in Europe.
Could the Minister be a little more specific in this regard? We are changing the law and the Minister seems to have more information. There appears to have been an increase in the number of people showing an interest in having an Irish passport. They are not so young now and it could be for very simple reasons. When you get a certain age — the Minister would not know anything about this yet — you take a greater interest in your heritage, ancestry and the old country. Is there a problem in this regard? The Minister suggested that there might be specific reasons; we are all adults here and she could let us hear some of the reasons.
The intention in 1955-56 when the original Act was being drafted was that citizenship should only date from registration. There has been a dramatic increase in the number of applications from South Africa in recent years from this group.
Well, at least we now know what the Minister is talking about and why these proposals are being made. What are the practical consequences of the retrospection before the date of registration in such cases? They can still be granted citizenship here and we are saying that it will only commence from that date.
It applies only to children they have after that date.
That would in effect put a stop to the practice and it would not apply to their children.
Where they have an interest in Ireland and in their Irish ancestry of course they can register and their children will also be able to register and claim Irish citizenship. At present it is open but when the change is made it will not be possible to act in the way I have described.
The Minister said that there has been a dramatic increase in the numbers applying for Irish citizenship. Could she give us the figures over the last few years indicating this increase?
I am sorry, I do not have those figures but I am sure I could get them for the Deputy.
I take it that the Minister has some figures, perhaps she could give one or two examples?
I should love to oblige the Deputy but I cannot be specific in regard to applications from abroad. However, the number of foreign birth registrations has risen in recent years; in 1985 1,653 people registered, in 1983 the figure was 925 and, to go back even further, until 1975 the number registering was under 500 every year. That does not help in regard to the regions or countries, where registration took place.
We can see from those figures that the numbers increased from 500 in 1975 to 1,653 in 1985. Has the Minister any idea why so many people are registering and of the benefit as a result?
I can only hazard a guess. Obviously, in certain parts of the world, people want to have an alternative to their present citizenship. One thinks of South Africa or Hong Kong in this regard. It could also be the case that the steep increase since 1975 was as a result of our entry to the EC.
The increase may well be related to our entry to the EC. Did the Minister also say that there has been a substantial increase in the number of applications from South Africa?
Yes.
What other countries are prominent on that list? Obviously, South Africa is and one can recognise the reason for that. The Minister mentioned that Hong Kong was another country on that list.
I do not have that kind of information but I will get it for the Deputy.
I would be delighted to get the information later but I thought the Minister's official would have it on file.
We would have been better prepared but we did not have any indication that the Deputy was going to have this expressed interest in this as an amendment was not tabled.
On Committee Stage we deal with sections in detail and I had expected that the Minister would have told the House that this section represented a change in the 1956 Act. I had expected the Minister would have given the reason for the change. At the outset I asked if the Minister intended making a statement on this new section. On Committee Stage we have an opportunity to get a lot of information from a Minister and have a discussion about provisions in a Bill. While I did not move an amendment to the section I was anxious to know the reasons for including it. Naturally, I was a little suspicious when the Minister did not have anything to say about the section at the outset. I wonder if this is a provision we should be adopting. There may be many people living abroad, in Hong Kong and so on, whose parents or grandparents were Irish and who may be anxious to return to this country. Will they be cut off? Who is putting the pressure on the Minister and the Government to adopt this provision?
Earlier I asked if Britain was putting on the pressure. The Minister mentioned that the section was introduced to deal with people who may have two passports or people using Ireland as a backdoor into Britain or into the EC. When one considers those matters it makes one wonder about the wisdom of adopting the provision and cutting off people from the country. The section states that the citizenship shall commence only from the date of the registration and, obviously, that will affect the children of Irish people living abroad. Is it wise to cut off the children of Irish people who live abroad? I would have thought we would have been glad to see the children of such people coming to Ireland after a long time, even if they were to use their citizenship of this country to be members of the great European Community we all belong to. We should facilitate such people and not introduce regulations which will restrict them. We are creating a new generation of emigrants and I wonder if this section will cut them off altogether.
I am uneasy about the section and the Minister's statement has not relieved my unease. I would have preferred if the Minister had outlined the reasons for this measure. I should like to know if the provision will affect extraditions for crimes or political offences. We are aware that the Government have signed the European Convention on Terrorism and that before ratifying it, having listened to the arguments made at home since it was signed — it is our view that it was signed in some haste — they may decide to make provisions for our citizens, as other countries did. If that occurs, will the people we are cutting off in this section be affected because their citizenship will start from the date of registration and not from the date of birth? For example, if an American citizen whose extradition is being sought from this country decides to seek citizenship here, what will the position be? Will the fact that citizenship commences from the date of registration affect the extradition process? Will a court be obliged to accept that nationality was from the date of registration?
Obviously, the section is intended to put a stop to an abuse of some type but I am not sure what the abuse is. In recent times there has been a big increase in the number of public servants and others going abroad to work. There is a provision in the 1956 Act under which the Minister may confer citizenship on a person born outside Ireland if his father or mother, as the case may be, was at the time of his birth resident abroad in the public service. Will the Minister explain to the House where the call for this provision came from? Did it come from the EC, Britain, the Minister or the Department?
The Deputy will be aware that our citizenship laws are very liberal and when this amending legislation was being introduced if was felt there was a need to tighten up in regard to registration and citizenship applications. I have already given the reasons for that.
The Minister of State has said there was a need to tighten it up. I do not think the Minister has explained very clearly what the need was. I asked the Minister how did that need arise. We had a Bill before this one which the EC required us to introduce, or which emanated as a result of an EC directive. Did this measure arise following representations or pressure from the EC?
The answer is, no, it did not come because of representations from the EC.
Did it emanate, then, because of representations from Britain?
No.
In simple terms can the Minister tell the House why the Government want to introduce this section?
Perhaps Deputy Woods would move to report progress.
Progress reported; Committee to sit again.