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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 7 May 1986

Vol. 366 No. 1

Finance Bill, 1986: Financial Resolution.

I move:

That provision be made in the Act giving effect to this Resolution so as to secure, in the manner and to the extent specified in that Act—

(a) that relief for management expenses by virtue of section 33 (1) of the Corporation Tax Act, 1976 (No. 7 of 1976), shall be given as if each of the following three classes of life assurance business, that is to say—

(i) pension business,

(ii) general annuity business, and

(iii) life assurance business (other than pension business and general annuity business),

were a separate class of business,

(b) that relief shall not be given, by virtue of the said section 33 (1), for the stamp duty charged under section 92 (8) (c) of the Finance Act, 1982 (No. 14 of 1982),

(c) that certain annuity business shall, for corporation tax purposes, be excluded from the general annuity business of assurance companies and that annuities referable to the business so excluded shall not be treated as charges on income for the purposes of the Corporation Tax Acts, and

(d) that annuities referable to the general annuity business of an assurance company shall, for corporation tax purposes, be deductible only from the profits of that class of business.

This resolution relates to amendment No. 58a circulated yesterday. The Financial Resolution has to be moved under Standing Orders because the amendment involves changes which, by restricting the over generous relief already available, will increase the corporation tax liability of life assurance companies. It is normal procedure to move the resolution at the start of the day's Finance Bill debate but the proper place for a detailed discussion on the changes is when the amendment itself is being discussed later today.

The Minister has just indicated that the proper place for a detailed discussion is when the amendment itself is being discussed later today. The Minister must know, as every Member of this House knows, that the House will have no opportunity for discussion, much less a detailed discussion, on the amendment itself later today.

The chances will become more remote the more we talk on this.

Even if we were to get the greatest degree of expedition without ever having a comment on the section, it is not possible for us to reach section 53 later today.

This is the timetable suggested.

For that reason I want to ask the Minister to explain the effect of this resolution. I want to put that in context. Yesterday evening as we were debating other sections of the Bill the Minister, without the knowledge of any Member debating the Finance Bill in the House, circulated two very detailed amendments. One is called euphemistically "the second additional list". The first additional list was circulated in the offices, and we were unaware of it, at approximately 4 p.m. and the second additional list was circulated some time around 5 p.m. No Member of the Oireachtas who was addressing himself or herself to the issues of the Finance Bill yesterday had any knowledge of these two booklets — that is what they are — until we left Dáil Éireann yesterday evening.

I want to protest at the manner in which the Government and the Minister are treating the Dáil. To call it trickery would be to understate it. It is absolutely unacceptable that we who are charged here with representing the people's interest in scrutinising finance legislation should be treated in this manner. Resolutions were already moved here at the beginning of the Finance Bill and, understandably, we all assumed that those resolutions were necessary to discuss the sections of the Bill or amendment published at that time.

When a Minister for Finance — it is becoming a pattern for this Minister who claimed to move towards reform in the House — treats the House with such contempt as he did yesterday in introducing two booklets of amendments which we had no opportunity to read or discuss and this morning proposes to add another Financial Resolution to give effect to that contempt, we must protest in the strongest possible way. Does it vary the agreements we have, a copy of which I have in front of me here, that this morning we deal immediately with section 27? It ensures that there is no possibility of our having anything like a reasonably informed discussion. For that reason I have to ask the Minister to explain precisely what is in this resolution, why the changes from his original intention, why he has introduced the change, why he has had a change of mind in the past 12 hours and why are we being asked, without any opportunity to study the implications of that change of mind, effectively just to pass it through — and not through a slot machine. This does not even feed into the slot machine, much less come out at the other side. It is making a mockery of the whole procedure.

I want to address myself to this resolution because, in common with other Members of the House, I will have no opportunity to speak on the amendment on which it is based. The amendment is to section 53 and the part of the Finance Bill which is due to be debated today will end at section 55. There is not the remotest possibility of a section in the thirties to fifties being reached or discussed. I wish to protest as strongly as I can at what is called the legislative process which is supposed to go on in the House as it is a farce every year as far as the Finance Bill, the most important single Bill to come before the House each year, is concerned. It is particularly farcical this year because I was told last week that four days were being devoted to Committee Stage of the Bill, I took that at its face value as meaning four days although I expressed grave reservations as to whether four days would be adequate. In practice, what do the days consist of? Yesterday the debate on the Finance Bill began shortly after 4 o'clock and ended at 7 o'clock, less than three hours. Today, the debate on the Bill began at 12.15 p.m. and will be adjourned at 1.30 p.m. It is due to recommence at 3.45 p.m. and to finish at 6 p.m.

The Deputy's points would have been much more appropriate on the agreement to the timetable.

The timetable has been changed.

I tried to intervene this morning, to no avail. What is described as a day's debate amounts to three and a half hours and it amounted to two hours and 55 minutes yesterday. The House is sitting until 11 p.m. tonight and is dealing with irrelevant or unimportant matters——

They were sought by the Opposition.

That may be the case but this Bill should be debated until 11 p.m., 12 midnight or 1 a.m.——

I must ask Deputy O'Malley to deal with Financial Resolution No. 23 which is before the House.

It is Financial Resolution No. 7.

It is No. 7 on the Order Paper.

It is Financial Resolution No. 23.

There is no Financial Resolution No. 23, I have the Order Paper in front of me.

It is Financial Resolution No. 23. The Deputies seem determined to waste time.

Judging by Deputy O'Kennedy's oratorical flights he will not make much of a contribution.

It is hard to believe that the Minister for Finance was the father figure of reform of the Dáil, who intended to have useful discussion, adequate time and so on. To my amazement the Minister is colluding with various interests to ensure that there will be no proper discussion of the Finance Bill, 1986.

What does Deputy O'Malley mean by colluding?

Because it suits various interests——

——to have a legislative process that consists of handing in an amendment at 5 p.m. or 6 p.m. yesterday evening and running it through the House today without any discussion.

What does the Deputy mean by "colluding with various interests"?

With those who like to see legislation dealt with in that way.

Is the Deputy suggesting that I am colluding with outside interests? If so, that is not the case and the Deputy should be careful.

This Financial Resolution is seven pages long and extremely complicated. One would need specialist advice on it because it does not relate to normal corporation tax law but to a very specialised branch of it dealing with life assurance companies.

I do not want to cut in on the Deputy but surely when we were agreeing a timetable which included the amendment to which the Deputy referred, that was the time to raise these matters?

On a point of clarification——

Deputy O'Malley has the floor.

If I may be allowed to correct the Chair on a matter of fact, when the timetable was agreed it did not include the amendment which the Minister introduced yesterday evening. The timetable was agreed yesterday morning and the amendment which gave rise to this resolution was introduced yesterday afternoon without any of us having knowledge of it——

On a point of order, it was clearly indicated on Second Stage that there would be an amendment on this subject and yet Deputy O'Kennedy suggested a particular timetable which was designed to ensure that this section——

Deputy O'Malley on the resolution.

It was Deputy O'Kennedy's timetable.

My timetable with the Minister's constraints.

Please stop interrupting.

The Bill, including the amendment on which the resolution is based, is being guillotined as is the case with so many other Bills. Of course it is a guillotine with a difference of which we have seen evidence in the last year or two, with the agreement of the main Opposition party.

It was a guillotine without a dissenting voice.

It is an agreement of the House.

I have found that it is a waste of time to protest at these cosy arrangements made between the Government and the main Opposition party. I am told that the House has agreed on a matter and that is it.

Deputy O'Malley could have spoken on this matter yesterday morning but having agreed to it he is now out of order. He should confine himself to the resolution.

This amendment is a booklet containing seven pages of tremendously complicated matter which will never be debated here except to be mentioned in passing——

Another amendment contains 16 pages.

One of last night's amendments contained 17 pages and it was circulated—if that was the word—in Deputies' post boxes while we were debating in the House. Is this legislation? If so, how long will we put up with it? It is ridiculous that this should be the case every year. Indeed, it is far worse this year because the Bill is bigger and more complicated than usual and the amendments are enormous. We were told that an amendment would be put down in relation to this matter but it was put down at 6 p.m. last night and not when one assumes the Government would make their amendments on Committee Stage, which is 24 or 48 hours before Committee Stage commences when all amendments are circulated and printed.

The Deputy is out of order.

The probability is that we will get more amendments tonight from the Government in relation to the sections which will be discussed tomorrow. We may even get them today for all I know. We are entitled to protest at this abuse of the legislative process. This is not legislation, it is the Department of Finance and the Revenue Commissioners churning out law. They are making the law, we are not. Our Constitution does not contemplate such a situation. We are in the House to protest about that and stop it and, if we do not, we are failing in our duty. Who are the legislators as far as the Finance Bill, 1986, is concerned? It is not Dáil Éireann. Today Dáil Éireann will discuss two or three sections. The legislation is being made by unelected people in the Department of Finance and in the Revenue Commissioners.

The Chair cannot allow the Deputy to take up the limited time available on a matter that is not in order.

It is a matter of fundamental importance not just to the Bill.

It is not in order.

Did the Deputy read the amendment? It was circulated yesterday and he had the evening to read it. The Deputy has spoken about everything except the amendment.

The Minister will have an opportunity to reply later.

The Deputy has spoken about everything except the amendment. He was not in the House last night when he could have raised this.

The Minister will have an opportunity to reply and he should not ignore the Chair.

The Deputy should address himself to the amendment.

The Minister should not ignore the Chair anymore than any other Member of the House. I must insist on Deputy O'Malley confining himself to the resolution before the House and it would be a dereliction of my duty if I did not do so.

I notice that the Minister is anxious that I should do that because he knows the absolute truth of what I am saying and the farce to which the House is being reduced.

The Deputy should confine himself to the amendment.

Deputy O'Malley will have to resume his seat if he does not deal with the resolution.

The amendment and the resolution are interesting not so much for what they contain but for what they do not contain. At the last minute yesterday the Minister for Finance very properly, and I give him credit for that, decided that he would not proceed with what it had been indicated earlier he would be proceeding with. Long and complicated as this amendment is, and, therefore, the Financial Resolution, it does not contain the objectionable features which the Minister for Finance announced earlier, through his various officials, that it would contain. The major part of the amendment and by far the most damaging part to people who hold life assurance policies has been dropped and for that we must be thankful. However, that has been done not so much through the processes of the House but outside the House. Increasingly legislation is made, and unmade, outside the House.

In so far as the limited amount of advice I could get on this extremely technical matter overnight indicates I do not see that there is anything fundamentally objectionable in the amendment because the serious matter has been entirely excluded from it. One of the effects of it — I mention this in passing because even though it is damaging to the public at large and to people who insure their lives, it is only a pale shadow of the damage that would have been done if the Minister had gone ahead with his proposed amendment — is that the levy which is payable on life assurance policies will no longer be allowable as an expense. Therefore, the net cost to the policy holder of the levy will be increased from 1 per cent to 2 per cent but that at least is only on new business written from now on. At least people will go into that with their eyes open and will know in advance what the levy is going to cost them. The fact that it is being increased by two-thirds is regrettable but at least people will know it. It is not retrospective taxation and therefore, it is unlike some of the Minister's other proposals. It is not objectionable in principle, whatever one might say about the merits or demerits of it otherwise.

Big and long as the amendment is, the thing that distinguishes it and makes it most remarkable is what is not in it, in particular the proposal of the Minister to levy full corporation profits tax of 30 per cent of the investment income funds of a life assurance company irrespective of whether it made a profit or a loss without any allowance on that 30 per cent for expenses. That proposal, which happily the Minister has dropped, was a new concept in corporation profits tax or in any kind of taxation here because an artificial statutory profit was being declared. Whether it was made in practice or not, a corporation tax at 35 per cent was payable on that 30 per cent. In effect it was a levy of 10½ per cent of the entire fund and would have operated retrospectively.

The Minister is to be congratulated that at the very last minute he declined to go ahead with that provision. Directly arising out of that, and out of this Financial Resolution, one must ask, what are the Minister's intentions in regard to section 85 because that section, this amendment and the Financial Resolution, are entirely bound up together? It just happens that the amendment was being put in the chapter of the Bill that related to corporation tax because it was a corporation tax provision. In fact, it is entirely bound up with section 85 and what is proposed in it. Since there are not going to be these onerous changes in the law in relation to the corporation tax, the provision in section 85, presumably, will only operate for this year. On what basis does one justify a once-off provision of that kind other than frantic searching around by the Government for some way, no matter how hamfisted or idiotic, of raising a substantial amount of money in the short term? Is the Minister prepared to look at the amendment to that section to enable this payment which would be made this year to be regarded as a credit for corporation tax that would be payable in future years, particularly now that the corporation tax will be increased to a fairly significant degree by the amendments to this resolution?

If the Minister considers, as clearly he does, that his proposals in regard to corporation tax were improper, he cannot but consider that the proposals in regard to the stamp duty levy contained in section 85 are improper. Indeed, he has already conceded as much by his change of the rate of stamp duty from 15 per cent down to 9 per cent. I should like to re-emphasise, because the matter is a technical one, that the people who will have to bear the burden of this are not insurance companies in the last resort. That impression is given because it is fashionable nowadays to be seen to impose taxation of all kinds and levies of all kinds on what are called financial institutions.

The people who have to bear it in the last resort are not the insurance companies or the people who invest substantial sums of money with insurance companies in the guaranteed income bonds and guaranteed growth bonds schemes which the Minister is quite properly seeking to get at. The people who will suffer are the with-profit policy holders of the companies concerned, the ordinary people who do not have large sums of money to invest but insure their lives for the protection of their wives and children by paying an annual, six monthly or quarterly premium. Very often those people find it very difficult to do that but in the last resort they are the people who will have to bear the brunt of what is proposed in 1986 in section 85. Now that the Minister has had, very happily for everyone, considerable second thoughts on the whole question of corporation tax, I would ask him to look again at section 85. I ask him to accept the amendment down on that section which would get over this difficulty as best one could in the circumstances and, at the same time, give the Exchequer the revenue it so frantically seems to need at present.

It is very unsatisfactory that the Minister should have introduced this resolution with perhaps a 20 or 30 seconds speech in which he said the details can be gone into on the amendment. As a result those of us who speak on it are given no information by the Minister, but he has the right to reply. At the best of times that is somewhat unacceptable. It is particularly unacceptable when the amendment is enormously complicated. It was circulated apparently at about 6 o'clock last evening, affording people very little opportunity to seek advice on it. Nonetheless we are expected to conduct a debate on it. It is just another aspect of the entirely unsatisfactory way in which the debate on this Finance Bill, and Finance Bills generally, is being conducted.

The debate is really a bit of a farce. Last evening we got to section 5, when suddenly every section up to 26 was guillotined through. I cannot see us getting beyond the first two or three sections today. They deal with this DIRT tax and several hours at least will have to be devoted to a debate on that topic, with the result that anything from, say, section 30 onwards has virtually no hope of being debated today.

I shall finish on this point, as someone who was elected to this House by some section of the people. It is no longer acceptable that the House, which they thought was their legislature, has no function in relation to these matters, that the financial legislation in effect is being handled by officials of the Department of Finance and of the Revenue Commissioners. The Constitution of Ireland does not contemplate that situation. We had better rectify it because it is a very serious situation for us. This resolution, and that amendment on which it is based, are the proof of the absolute truth of what I say. That truth is unpalatable and it simply cannot go on.

The Minister to conclude.

A Ceann Comhairle, sorry, on a point of clarification——

The Deputy has already spoken. There is no such point——

There is, a Cheann Comhairle——

There is no such point of clarification.

Are you ruling, A Cheann Comhairle, that, on the resolution, it is not being taken as normal Committee, that the Minister only——

No, it is an ordinary resolution. I have so ruled and that has been accepted.

Since I came into the Chair.

This morning?

It has always been the case.

Before the Minister replies I just want to ask one question.

The Deputy can ask one question but that is all.

I want to inquire to what extent this resolution will affect, not just the section it purports to amend, section 53, but also — as Deputy O'Malley has indicated — section 85. I want to inquire why, if the resolution is in the form in which it was introduced this morning, it was not brought in with the other resolutions introduced by the Minister to enable the Finance Bill to be debated. There is nothing in the resolution before us and——

I allowed a question. I am not going to allow a speech. I am going to be firm. I find the Deputy quite difficult because he will not conform to the rules of the House.

This is a question, a Cheann Comhairle.

Maybe it is, but the Deputy is making a speech.

It is simply a question: can I ask the Minister why, when he was introducing the other resolutions to enable the Finance Bill to be passed through the House, this resolution presented to us this morning, resolution 7 — the only one he did not include in the original list — was not included? There is nothing here to indicate why it was not——

That is a question, and I have allowed a question.

First, I should like to say that the timetable for the taking of the Finance Bill——

On the resolution, if the Minister wants to go into the time-table——

It was raised.

A Cheann Comhairle, I insist on the right to reply to this because the fact of the matter is that it is not the resolution or the timetable——

I gave Deputy O'Kennedy a bit of advice. He had better decide to conform to the Standing Orders of the House. He had better do that——

Deputy O'Kennedy wants to make an allegation——

——furthermore he had better decide to obey the ruling of the Chair.

A Cheann Comhairle, you did indicate to me that we were going to talk on the resolution——

The Minister has the right to reply to points made.

Deputy O'Kennedy spent his entire contribution on this resolution referring not to the contents of the resolution but to his opinion as to the timetabling for its discussion and the discussion of the section to which it relates. For that reason it is necessary for me to reply to the points made by Deputy O'Kennedy although, strictly speaking, they do not come within the terms of the resolution itself. But, seeing that Deputy O'Kennedy spent his entire contribution talking about this and did not refer to the resolutions, it is necessary for me to reply.

First, I should say it was indicated in advance that we would be introducing an amendment, or amendments, to deal with this subject. That was indicated in the course of the debate on Second Stage when we clearly indicated the area in which we would be seeking improvement, namely, means of increasing the corporation tax yield in future years, that is, from 1987 onwards, from life assurance companies. That having been done Deputy O'Kennedy and I agreed, and the House subsequently validated our agreement, on a timetable for taking the Finance Bill. Clearly at the time Deputy O'Kennedy agreed to this timetable he was aware that this subject would be likely to come up, as it had been indicated in advance that it would be on the Second Stage debate, which was before he entered into the agreement for the time-tabling of this Bill.

To ensure that we got beyond section 7. We would never get to the DIRT tax if we did not do that.

Furthermore, the first entire day of the debate on the Finance Bill was used by Deputy O'Kennedy, Deputy O'Malley and others in promoting the amendments which they knew had no prospect whatsoever of success because, in many cases, they would have had widespread effects on the Government's financial targets. They were put forward simply to enable those Deputies to make speeches indicating that they would like to see taxation lower. Would not we all? But there was no need to spend the entire first day of the debate in the promotion of amendments which had no particular contribution to make to the technical content of the Finance Bill. Yet Deputy O'Kennedy and Deputy O'Malley used up a very valuable first day—which could have been used for detailed discussion of sections like this—in what was simply a political exercise.

It is wrong for Deputy O'Malley to use the term that these sections are being guillotined through the House. This is not the case. The timetable was agreed by the House without any demur from Deputy O'Malley on the occasion when it was being agreed. If he was here at the time, on the Order of Business—which I think he should be—that was the time to raise any disagreements he had with the timetable. He did not.

The Minister knows perfectly well I am wasting my time.

The Deputy did not do so, no more than was he vigilant when he should have been moving an amendment he had put down himself here yesterday to the Finance Bill. He was not in the House to move it and the amendment had to be disposed of because Deputy O'Malley was absent.

If the Deputy were vigilant, in regard both to his own amendment and to any objections of his to the timetable suggested by the main Opposition party, he could have raised any necessary points at that time rather than doing so as he has done for the last while, eating into the time necessary for the debating of the Bill itself, in order to make over-blown political points. That is the only term that could be appropriately used to describe the first part of Deputy O'Malley's contribution. I shall pay the Deputy the compliment of saying that he at least did read the section. He at least did address the section in part of his speech.

It is in no way unusual for amendments to be submitted during the course of the debate on the Finance Bill. This has been the case for the last ten or 15 years. Amendments have been circulated in second and third lists during the debate on the Bill. That is no more and no less than has happened in this case. This amendment was circulated around 5 p.m. last evening. All the other Deputies at present in the House had the entire night to read the amendment and have discussions on it if they wished to do so. Unfortunately, it would appear that some of these, not including Deputy O'Malley who did read the amendment, did not use the time available to them as is normal in every financial debate to discuss and examine the terms of the amendment.

Deputies will wish to know why the amendment was not introduced with the first list of amendments. Quite truthfully, the reason for this is that there have been, up to a relatively late date, ongoing discussions with the insurance companies and with the relevant experts in the Revenue Commissioners' Office and my own Department, to ensure that the twin objectives of having a tax which will yield money and will at the same time do no irreparable harm to the industry would be achieved. Of course, it would have been possible for me to have circulated an amendment a week ago but if I had then circulated an amendment which did not reflect all the discussions which have taken place, it might have been necessary for me to have amended the amendment. It makes much more sense for the Government to ensure that any amendment introduced has been discussed in full with those directly affected, so that their point of view, which is an expert one, can be taken into account and then the amendment circulated and the opinion of the House also taken into account. That is a prudent and normal course to adopt.

The Government spent three weeks discussing this matter and we get no time at all.

Deputy O'Kennedy, please.

The time being devoted to discussion of this year's Finance Bill in terms of the number of days being taken for Committee Stage is, to my knowledge, as long as we have ever had for the discussion of Committee Stage of a Finance Bill. What is unfortunate is that much of the time is being used by Opposition Deputies — and I include here all three Opposition parties — to make political speeches rather than to address the particular section of the Bill to be debated. That is regrettable. Perhaps if we had more time, if there was not a constitutional requirement whereby the Finance Bill must be passed within a certain number of days of the budget debate taking place, it might have been possible to have a different arrangement which would allow greater time. Unfortunately, the House sits on only three days a week unlike other Parliaments which sit for five days a week. We have specific time limits within which these Bills must be passed and these are matters agreed by parties on all sides. Of course, we would have more time for debating the Finance Bill if there were not laid down in the Constitution a time limit within which it must be passed, or if there were a possibility of the House sitting for five days a week rather than three. It is not the Government alone who are responsible for this situation. Deputies generally have a requirement to be in their constituencies and it would appear that it is not possible for them to be here on Mondays and Fridays. Therefore the debate is constrained both by the availability of parliamentary time and by the constitutional requirement. This means, unfortunately, that from time to time amendments will be circulated rather later than would be desirable. This is a case where that is so. However, it is not as late as Deputies suggest and is certainly nothing unusual by comparison with past practice.

It is. It is unprecedented.

This amendment was circulated last night and Deputies had considerable time to devote to debating it. If business is carried on quickly today there is no reason why we should not reach the section on which it will arise.

We are expected to take 30 sections in three hours.

Deputy O'Kennedy, please.

Three hours for 30 sections is the timetable suggested by Deputy O'Kennedy.

No, it is not.

Deputy O'Kennedy suggested this timetable and I agreed to it.

On a point of order——

Would you resume your seat, Deputy?

This is a point of order. By confirmation in this House by the Taoiseach in relation to the Finance Bill, he indicated that the Finance Bill would be introduced in this House three weeks before it was introduced.

That is not a point of order. Would you resume your seat?

It is. Because the Taoiseach ensured that we would not have time, we had to make some arrangements to enable us to get to some sections of the Bill.

The Deputy is being disorderly.

The Taoiseach and the Minister misled the House.

I shall refer the House, if I may, to the main changes contained in the amendment to which this Financial Resolution refers. First, annuities which are not related to genuine life annuity contracts will cease to be deductible as charges against the profits of the life assurance companies. This change applies to what may be described as non-genuine life annuity contracts issued on and from yesterday. It is specifically directed against a loophole exploited by guaranteed income and growth bands which were the major type of tax avoidance investments in the assurance area.

Three main classes of life assurance business — namely pension business, general annuity business and life assurance business — will be treated separately in future, for the purpose of relief for management expenses. Excess management expenses on one class may not be relieved or set against profits in another class. In particular, management expenses in relation to pension business, which is exempt from tax anyway, may not and will not in future be capable of being set against or relieved against taxable profits on another class of business, which clearly was essentially a tax avoidance device in so far as life assurance was concerned in the past. The fact that one could move expenses around, so to speak, from where they were appropriate to where they were not appropriate simply to artificially diminish tax liability is no longer possible.

Furthermore, a deduction will no longer be allowed against an assurance company's profits for the special levy on assurance premiums imposed by section 92 of the Finance Act, 1982. Also, reliefs for genuine life annuities which are treated as charges against profits will be confined to the profits of the company's general annuity business and not usable elsewhere. The profits of the business relating to what I describe as non-genuine life annuities, such as guaranteed income bonds and growth bonds, will be taxed as part of the life assurance business — in other words, other than as pension and general annuity business. Because of the way in which the system operates, these changes are not expected to begin to have a significant impact on the yield of tax until the payment year of 1989; the accounting year of 1988 determines the payments for 1989.

As indicated in the Second Stage speech on 15 April, these reforms are intended to provide a long term basis for securing a reasonable corporation tax contribution from the life assurance industry. If extra tax yield were to be sought from companies next year other than by these amendments but by more far-reaching proposals with a more immediate effect they could seriously affect the solvency of some companies.

Which I stated here two weeks ago.

As the Deputy stated on Second Stage a special levy is being imposed this year yielding £20 million. The Deputy suggested that debates in this House have no value and in particular in regard to Finance Bill matters do not yield any outcome. The fact that this amendment has been produced reveals precisely the opposite is the case because the points the Deputy made on Second Stage were taken into account in this amendment. Far from Deputy O'Malley's case being true that there is no opportunity for what Deputies say to be taken into account, this amendment demonstrates that it is the case that they can be and are being taken into account. The points made by Deputy O'Malley on Second Stage, which was the appropriate time to make them, were taken into account by me in regard to this amendment.

Naturally, it was also necessary for me to take into account the views of the industry and the interests of the Revenue Commissioners. Hence the need for elaborate and lengthy discussions leading up to the introduction of this amendment. These discussions took somewhat longer than I would have liked from the point of view of the timing of the circuclation of the amendment. This has happened in the past and it is likely to happen in the future until there are fundamental changes in the way in which the House orders its business in regard to the amount of time available each week for debate, until such time as the Opposition cease to waste that time with amendments which have no technical purpose but which are simply a vehicle for political speeches, and until such time as the time limits for the passage of the Finance Bill after the passage of the budget are relaxed. All of these changes could be brought about, some of them by the Government, but for them to have any effect they would require the co-operation of the Opposition in the manner in which they would be used.

Deputy O'Malley asked about section 85 and the prospects of my accepting an amendment to that section which has been put down by Deputies Flynn and O'Kennedy. I have to say that I regrettably will not be in a position to recommend to the House that it accepts that amendment. The reason for this is that the effect of the amendment would be to virtually abolish the yield from corporation profits tax from life assurance companies in 1989 which is the year in which it would have full effect. I have no wish to create a situation in which a substantial gap would be created for the Government in achieving their financial targets in 1989 as a result of measures taken in 1986. That would not be reasonable from the point of view of the Government responsible to this Dáil passing on financial liabilities in this way to the Government responsible to the next Dáil. Hence, I do not propose to accept the amendment advocated by Deputies Flynn and O'Kennedy. While this is not strictly relevant it was raised by Deputy O'Malley and it is appropriate to reply at this stage.

What this amendment illustrates is that, far from the Government allowing the Revenue Commissioners, to use Deputy O'Malley's colourful term, churn out law, points made by Deputies, notably Deputy O'Malley on Second Stage, can be and are listened to by the Government when they come to introduce amendments on Committee Stage. That does the House, the Government and Deputy O'Malley some credit. Rather than he being, to use another word beginning with "c", churlish about it which is not characteristic of him, he should acknowledge the fact that his own efforts have yielded some result in this amendment and he should be more pleased than displeased and somewhat less aggressive in the expression of his views in view of what has actually happened.

We have only debated nine sections.

Whose fault is that?

Question put and agreed to.
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