asked the Minister for Communications the number of deflectors being used to provide UK television reception in rural areas.
Ceisteanna — Questions Oral Answers. - UK TV Reception in Rural Areas.
1.
I am aware that there are illegal rebroadcasting systems, which are also known as deflectors, in operation in both urban and rural areas throughout the country. I have no information on the number of such systems in operation at present. Such systems are liable to seizure and their operators are liable to prosecution.
In view of the fact that those systems are operating very effectively — several Members of the House can enjoy the British television service as a result — why has the Minister repeatedly stated that it is not possible from the practical point of view for him to authorise the operation of those systems?
First, the policy which is now being adopted has been adopted by successive Governments. It is based on a number of considerations, the first of which are technical considerations. These deflectors use up a great amount of the frequency spectrum. If these developments were allowed to continue unabated there would not be any of the frequency spectrum left for necessary developments, not only in broadcasting but for emergency services and so forth. It is necessary that there should be regultion and that the best use of the frequency spectrum be achieved, bearing in mind probable future needs.
There are also questions of copyright involved here. This has been the subject of much discussion over the years between my Department and the Attorney General's office and, indeed, with other people.
Could I stress that it is not correct that there is interference with the frequency spectrum? In fact, only a very small number of frequencies are being used by this deflection system. The advice the Minister has been given, according to his answer, is simply not true and I wish to put that on the record.
In relation to copyright, the Minister has repeatedly told us that there are copyright difficulties with the Federation of Performing Rights Society in Britain. Have there even been any discussions on the subject with this federation or with the British broadcasting authorities? If not, while we continually have this problem about copyright, why have no meaningful discussions taken place between the Minister's Department and the people involved in Britain who may raise difficulties about copyright? From my information, gained from discussions with people in Britain, they would welcome discussions with the Minister's Department with a view to sorting out the problems which copyright presents. Finally, no effort has been made by his Department ——
The Deputy cannot make a statement.
The real problem is that there has been no effort by the Minister's Department to deal with those two problems — the practicality and copyright — over the years. We have continually received the kind of answer which we have received today.
The Deputy is making a speech.
By his tone Deputy Fahey thinks himself to be an expert in this field. He has asserted that the information of a technical nature which I have given is incorrect. It is not incorrect and I would ask Deputy Fahey does he even know what part of the frequency spectrum these deflectors occupy?
I do.
Which part?
(Interruptions.)
There are only three parts which operate in the west where this system is operating successfully.
I want to say it is very clear, especially as the Deputy Leader of the Deputy's party, who seems to be good at keeping files on people and snooping on people as he was in Government, has to jump in in defence of Deputy Fahey, that Deputy Fahey knows nothing about the technical nature of the problem.
That is not fair.
The fact of the matter is that the deflector systems are pre-empting the use of the ultra high frequency system which will be needed, or almost certainly will be needed, for the future development of television in this country. In relation to the copyright aspect of the question, we have been avoiding any discussions with the British or anybody else on copyright for the simple reason that we are not going to walk into a situation whereby 60 per cent to 70 per cent of our population currently enjoying signals from the services from the air free of charge would possibly then have to pay for them. I am sure that that is not what Deputy Fahey or the Fianna Fáil Party want.
Could I ask the Minister if he would make any provision for people in rural areas who are seeking to have multi-channel viewing? In fact, the people who are enjoying this facility at present are not causing any great difficulty, as far as I am aware. The Minister should be aware if there are any objections into his Department. There are quite a number of these deflectors operating and operating very successfully. We are calling on the Minister to introduce legislation to allow these deflectors to be legalised and to charge a licence fee if required. This is a reasonable approach. The Minister is not prepared to accept this proposal from us. I can assure him that something will have to be done to bring these people into the legal situation. These people want to be legally set up.
A question, Deputy. The Deputy is making a speech.
I am asking the Minister if he would at least have his officials carry out an investigation into this matter so that when we come into Government we will be in a position to introduce the necessary legislation?
If that is the case I would like to know why Deputy Leyden, when Minister of State, did not do anything about it? If it is as easy as he suggested, I am sure his Government and himself, he having been Minister of State in my Department at the time, would have done something about it. He knows more than Deputy Fahey or Deputy Lenihan on the subject and he cannot pretend to be ignorant like they may pretend to be. The fact of the matter is that this is a complex problem. It has received extensive consideration by myself and my Department. I take the question by Deputy Leyden to imply a desire to supply multi-channel signals to even the remotest homes of this country. This is a desire I fully share and it is something we have been studying with great intensity in the last few years. Unfortunately, so far no solution to the problem has been reached, but there has been some progress. Hopefully, in the course of time we will be able to deal with this problem.
While I appreciate the difficulty which the Minister has in defending an impossible situation, could I suggest to him that all that is required in the earlier stages would be a policy decision by him and the Government that they would allow the free transmission of the particular signal to rural parts which are not already in the overspill from the airwaves naturally. As late as 1974 the Minister's predecessor in office, Dr. Conor Cruise O'Brien, had consultations with the BBC with a view to coming to an arrangement on the question of copyright for the extension of BBC 2 throughout Ireland as a whole rather than RTE 2, which he did not want. Because of the Minister's indepth knowledge of the situation which I have no doubt he is receiving from his colleagues in Government and from the backbenchers of both parties involved in the Government, would he give very serious consideration to having the matter discussed by an all-party committee of the House? This is something which concerns the people we represent and it is something for which there is a genuine and obvious request. I am not saying a demand, but a request. I am not asking the Minister to make a decision here, but would he consider referring the matter to an all-party committee of the House to get their views, opinions and advice on how best the problem might be overcome?
I will certainly consider the suggestion made by Deputy Collins. There are a number of issues which complicate the matter. First of all, there are throughout this country licensed franchisees of cable systems who in some cases are adversely affected by the existence of illegal deflectors. If we were to make the policy decision which Deputy Collins suggests — and there is some merit in that proposition — we could not do it before coming up with a policy on how to protect existing legal franchisees. The nature of the airwaves is such that you cannot set boundaries. That is a difficulty. We are, as I have already said, examining this matter with great intensity. I fully share the aspiration of people in remote areas to have as big a choice of television channels as possible.
In reply to the question the Minister put to me, I will supply him with the technical data which proves that deflector systems can and are being operated successfully without any great interference with the frequency spectrum, which is totally underutilised at present. Could I ask the Minister, in view of his reply on the copyright, if he is aware of the very small cost to cable television for copyright and if, based on that cost, he would withdraw the comment he made in regard to the cost for the remainder of the country, which I must also put to him is totally incorrect? There would be a very small cost for copyright to the remainder of the country, as there is a very minimal cost for rebroadcasting of cable systems. I must say, unlike the way the Minister accuses me, he has shown an appalling lack of knowledge on the subject.
A question, Deputy.
It is very difficult to respond to questions of the nature tabled by Deputy Fahey without being cross with him because he keeps asserting things which are the reverse of the truth. There would be a very significant cost for this country potentially if people who at the present time have access to cross-channel television services had to pay for them. There would be a very big cost both to the individual subscriber and to the country as a whole.
What is the cost to Dublin and Cork? That would put it into perspective.
It could represent an outflow of several million pounds.
That is nonsense.
Deputy Fahey might take the hint from the suggestion made by Deputy Collins that this is a subject which could be discussed in a more responsible way by means of an all-party committee where the facts and not fiction might be considered.