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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 14 May 1986

Vol. 366 No. 5

Private Members' Business. - Crime, Lawlessness and Vandalism: Motion (Resumed.)

The following motion was moved by Deputy Woods on Tuesday, 13 May 1986:
That Dáil Éireann requests the Government to provide the Garda Síochána with the resources needed to enable them to deal effectively with the present unacceptable levels of crime, lawlessness and vandalism.
Debate resumed on amendment No. 1:
To delete all words after "That" and substitute the following:
Dáil Éireann approves the provision by the Government to the Garda Síochána of the resources which have enabled the Force to combat crime more effectively, resulting in a reduction in the levels of reported crime in 1984 and 1985, and supports the Government's further action in this direction.
— (Minister for Justice.)

I refer to the Minister's opening paragraph last night where he said he found it a little difficult to understand why the Deputy thought it necessary to put down his original motion. He also said that the facts of the matter are that crime is on the decrease and that whatever resources the Garda need to tackle it have been and will continue to be provided for them. That is not true. If the Minister is out of touch with what is happening throughout the country, particularly in Garda stations in Cork with which I am very familiar, I will bring him up to date very quickly.

Members of the House are by now no doubt well aware of the incompetence of the present Government when it comes to tackling the widespread problems of crime which we are experiencing in our society at present. People are sick and tired of the total lack of commitment by the present Minister and his predecessor to tackle the serious and violent crimes to which we are being subjected by gangs of violent thugs and bully boys who thumb their noses at the Garda and at society in general. We have been subjected to an unprecedented wave of armed robberies in the past few months. Yet what have this Government done? The clear and unequivocal answer given to me and to other Deputies by our constituents is absolutely nothing. The Government seem to be more concerned with their media image. This is particularly true of the Ministers for Justice present and past. We have only to look at the recent debacle on Spike Island to see just how true this is.

The prison on Spike Island was opened in a blaze of publicity. When it was destroyed by prisoners, the then Minister for Justice was quick to talk about proposals for a major redevelopment of the prison. Yet what happened? The answer is nothing. We had the sorry spectacle of the present Minister appearing at a news conference in Cork prison and being clearly embarrassed at having to admit that no proposals had ever been put to the Government for the redevelopment of Spike Island. This was considered by his predecessor, Deputy Noonan, as a priority. How can the public have any confidence in a Government who are unable or unwilling to implement plans which they consider are necessary and urgent?

We are living in a time of unprecedented crime levels. The pattern of crime has changed dramatically. We now see more violent crimes. Personal assaults, especially on the elderly, are now more commonplace. Action must be taken in a number of areas to combat and reverse the levels of crime, lawlessness and vandalism in our country today. A fundamental area which needs urgent attention, if we are serious about solving the present problems, is the provision of sufficient resources to the Garda Síochána to enable them to carry out their work effectively and efficiently. Those resources include not only equipment but also manpower. These resources must be made available immediately. The Garda must be provided with the most up-to-date equipment in transport and communications. The manpower must be increased.

To come back to my opening remarks about the position in Cork, we were delighted last year when just before the local elections two new Garda stations were opened after much agitation for many years. At the time I complimented the Government on opening those stations and recognising the need for them. Unfortunately, I have to be very critical tonight of the fact that those stations are half empty. I would like to ask the Minister: where are the personnel who were supposed to occupy those premises?

The geographical division of areas in Cork is absolutely crazy. I would like to refer to the Watercourse Road Garda station. This is a new area almost double the area which existed before the new stations were divided up. There has been no additional personnel provided. This week there has been a reduction in personnel in the station. They have taken in a big urban area of local authority and a big urban area of local authority and private housing, schools and banks, all of which need additional resources and additional personnel to ensure proper security and proper manning for the public. Unfortunately, there is a total absence of this. There has been a request for a Garda car for the station as a replacement for an old car but that request has not been answered. The Minister told us last night that any assistance the Garda need they have got and they will get in the future. That is a fallacy. I appeal to the Minister to give immediate assistance to the stations in Cork because of the nature of the changes that took place.

At the district headquarters in Gurranebraher, the personnel waited for three months for a car. In that station there is a superintendent, an inspector, four sergeants and almost 40 gardaí. There was only one car, a detective car, in operation there. When the gardaí in Ballincollig were not on duty the gardaí in Gurranebraher were expected to cover that area. While we welcome the new stations, the way in which they are divided up is crazy. It is not alone frustrating the public but also the gardaí. I take this opportunity to pay tribute to the gardaí in that area, for their commitment and dedication in carrying out their duty under very difficult circumstances. I ask the Minister to be sincere in this matter. I am not trying to be political or to be critical. I want to speak on behalf of the people of Cork who are totally frustrated at the lack of protection and security from the Government. It is not good enough to come in here and say that the gardaí will get all the assistance they need when the realities of the situation are very clear. That assistance is not forthcoming. The facts and figures are there for the Minister.

The Minister also referred to the neighbourhood watch scheme. There are 170 schemes in operation involving 50,000 people. I presume the Minister is picking up the register and saying 5,000 people in a certain area are involved in the neighbourhood watch scheme. There are one or two schemes in Cork and there are others which we are anxious to get off the ground. If those schemes are set up, the resources of the gardaí are not there to back them up. It would be unfair to expect the public to be civic minded, to assist the gardaí and to report suspicious activities in their area and then find that the necessary back-up facilities are not available. Because of the shortage of manpower I cannot see those schemes operating successfully. If anything, they would be a disadvantage both to the community and to the gardaí.

It is more vital than ever before that the duties of the Garda are defined. I said in this House and in Cork that many of the duties of the Garda are unacceptable because of the demands on the force, because of the security situation and because of the very large numbers of gardaí who have been drafted to the Border. It is vital that every opportunity is taken to release gardaí from office duties and duties such as putting parking tickets on cars. On the one hand we are trying to improve relations with the gardaí in community meetings and by encouraging them to become more involved in the community but on the other hand they are putting parking tickets on our cars.

I ask the Minister to be sincere about this because we are all affected by the crime problem. The Garda have not the full support of the Government and if that is not forthcoming the honourable thing for the Minister and the Government to do is to resign and let a Fianna Fáil Government give the Garda the full support they need if they are to afford proper protection for the community, particularly the elderly who are intimidated and terrorised by thugs and bullies.

There has been talk about the west of Ireland, but there are many other parts of the country, including the urban areas of Cork and Dublin, in regard to which there has not been a positive response from the Minister. There should be more manpower available in Garda stations. For instance, it is a disgrace to any police force to be asked to inhabit the Watercourse Road Garda station in Cork. The gardaí are working out of a temporary building which has been classed as being a fire hazard. Would the Minister get on with the job of renovating the building next door to help the gardaí who are trying to do a very difficult job?

First, I would like to respond to a number of points raised by Deputies on the opposite side of the House. Some of the statements made cannot be allowed to go on the record of this House unrefuted. The first item I would like to turn my attention to is the reference by Deputy Woods to a statement that it is untrue that spiked chains have been provided to deal with so-called joyriders. I would like to set the matter straight here and now, for the record.

A number of sets of spiked chains have been issued to the Garda Síochána to deal with the upsurge in car stealing, joyriding and ramming of patrol cars which arose early last year. Because the use of the spiked chains is inherently dangerous to other road users, and could be dangerous also to members of the Garda manning a road block, the advice of the Attorney General was sought by the Garda authorities before they were issued to the force. The Attorney General issued guidelines as to when these chains could be used, having due regard to the law of the land and the necessity to provide for the safety of other road users. While one appreciates the feelings of those who would wish to see the problem of joyriders tackled "head on", as it were, the fact of the matter is that the law officers have advised on the legality of using spiked chains. It would be foolish for anybody to suggest that the chains be used other than in accordance with the law officers' directions.

I must also raise at this stage Deputy Woods' allegations about racketeering, which he made in the House last night. I am afraid that Deputy Woods cannot be allowed to remain coy about this one. Either he comes clean and reports the matter to the Garda or else he withdraws the allegation. He should name to the gardaí the public house which he claims cannot be sold because of the involvement of racketeers, or else he should not have made the allegation in the first place.

Deputy Woods is quite adept at making these sort of allegations. He did so before in 1983, after a court case had received some publicity. He claimed in a radio interview that there was a widespread racket in operation in Dublin. Subsequently, he was interviewed by a superintendent and a detective sergeant of the Garda but was unable to supply any further useful information. He was not able to supply the name of even one person who was alleged to be paying protection money. Because of his past history of making these sorts of allegations I must ask Deputy Woods, plainly speaking, to come off it. Either he puts up, or shuts up. If he knows of a racket in existence he should go the the Garda with whatever information is available to him. If this whole racketeering business is an invention, then the allegation should be withdrawn.

Deputy Woods went on last night to claim that civilian posts were being left unfilled because of the embargo in the public service. The facts of the matter are that 112 clerical trainees have been assigned to the Garda Síochána in recent months and they have been engaged in a range of clerical duties which has had the effect of making some additional gardaí available for outdoor partol duty.

I would now like to turn to a point raised by Deputy Lyons, that is, the development of the neighbourhood watch scheme. Deputy Lyons claims that the scheme seems to be floundering, because, he says, it is starved of resources, manpower and direction. The facts of the matter are that specific senior officers in Garda Headquarters have been specially assigned to the development and extension of the neighbourhood watch scheme. Moreover, the scheme itself, once in operation, does not deplete Garda recources. Rather, it adds to them. The scheme makes available to the gardaí thousands of extra pairs of eyes and ears to assist them in their task of crime prevention. Accordingly, the alleged failure of the scheme because of alleged lack of resources does not arise.

Next I would like to compliment Deputy Ahern for the constructive way in which he approached the debate. His acknowledgment of the improvement in the crime situation, particularly as regards car thefts in the Dublin area, is a refreshing change from those on the Opposition benches who will do nothing but criticise because they feel that is the only function they serve.

It is commendable also that Deputy Ahern recognises the beneficial effect of the major technological developments which have taken place within the force over the past three and a half years. Criticism, for the sake of criticism itself, does little in the way of stimulating constructive debate. I welcome Deputy Ahern's statement that gardaí are back on the beat on foot in a number of areas from which he says they had pulled out four or five years ago. I want to make it clear, as far as this Government are concerned, that there will be no "no go" areas as far as the Garda are concerned. Whatever resources, manpower or equipment are necessary will be provided to ensure that even the most difficult areas will be patrolled to the greatest extent possible.

The Minister in his speech last night referred to the fact that immediately on taking office the Government had addressed themselves to the problem of drug abuse and had established a special task force to examine the extent of the problem and to make recommendations. As a member of that task force I have had a hand in the formulation of the many important recommendations which they made and which are now being implemented. The recommendations concentrated on three fronts: education, law enforcement and rehabilitation. We also recommended the establishment of a coordinating committee comprised of representatives from each of the Departments involved in tackling drug abuse to see through the implementation of their proposals. This committee will, I believe, take care of the major defects which existed previously in the approach to the drug problem i.e., fragmentation of effort.

The Misuse of Drugs Act, 1984, amended the Misuse of Drugs Act, 1977, to provide for, among other measures, an increase in the maximum sentence for a convicted drug pusher from 14 years to life imprisonment, an increase in the maximum monetary penalties which can be imposed on summary conviction and removal of the monetary penalty limit for serious offences, such as drug pushing, when a person has been found guilty by a jury, and a simplified procedure for investigating allegations of irresponsible prescribing by doctors. In addition, the Criminal Justice Act, 1984, provides for the amendment of the criminal law and procedure to deal more effectively with serious crime including serious offences under the Misuse of Drugs Act.

There are very hopeful indications that the drugs problem is beginning to improve. The Garda are of the opinion that the incidence of drug trafficking has levelled off. To illustrate the point: in 1980 there was a 66 per cent increase over the previous year in the number of persons charged with drug offences and a corresponding increase of 137 per cent in the number of drug seizures. In 1982 the relevant increases were 26 per cent and 55 per cent respectively.

In sharp contrast the figures for 1985 indicate that there has been a decrease of 7 per cent in the number of persons charged with drug offences, and a 4 per cent decrease in the number of drug seizures. So far this year the figures for the number of drug seizures and the number of persons charged with drug trafficking are in line with those for the same period last year.

Clearly there has been an improvement. I want to make it absolutely clear, however, that there is no room for complacency in our approach to this dreadful menace in our society. I can assure the House that the Government will continue to ensure that whatever resources are necessary to get on top of the drugs problem will be allocated.

I think the gardaí deserve the highest praise for the determination and work which they are devoting to curb this menace in our society. Not only is the specialised Garda Drug Squad involved in this task but members of the force are generally motivated to take a particular interest in the problem of drug abuse and become actively involved in controlling it. To this end a special in-service training programme has been in operation in the force to ensure that each Garda division has a substantial number of members informed on various aspects of drug abuse, preventative measures and the special skills needed in drugs investigations. Over 2,400 members of the force from all Garda divisions have completed this course and they work in co-operation with the permanent units of the Drug Squad based at Dublin, Cork and Limerick. This policy has borne fruit in that many arrests and seizures are made by members other than those attached to the Drug Squad. In 1985, two-thirds of all seizures were made by uniform and detective personnel other than the Drug Squad.

An additional benefit resulting from coming to grips with the drug problems is the effect that this will have on the crime problem generally. It is acknowledged generally that drug addiction is one of the factors having a significant impact on the crime problem. Many addicts turn to crime in order to finance their expensive habit.

It was stated in the course of the debate that Garda strength is 600 short. This is not true. There is a statutory order permitting a maximum Garda strength of 12,000 but financial provision for a force of that size was never made by any administration. Since this Government took office, Garda strength has been increased by over 700, which is a considerable achievement in difficult economic times, and the strength of the force now stands at 11,400, the highest ever. This is the target figure provided for in the national plan. We have had a substantial increase in Garda strength over a relatively short period and the emphasis is now on the deployment of resources so as to ensure that they are being used as effectively and efficiently as possible. Before I leave the question of Garda strength, I would like to refute the statement made in the course of the debate to the effect that no gardaí have been recruited this year. This is not the case. Sixty-eight gardaí have been recruited in 1986 to date and further intakes of recruits are planned so as to maintain Garda strength at 11,400.

It was mentioned in the course of the debate that the financial provision for Garda overtime has been reduced over the past few years. While there has been a reduction in expenditure on Garda overtime, as compared with the abnormally high levels of expenditure in 1981 and 1982, regard must be had to the fact that Garda strength has been increased substantially since then. The important thing is not the actual amount of overtime but the effective level of the police service to the community.

Several Deputies have mentioned the question of insurance cover. It is noteworthy that the press reported last Saturday that the effects of the decrease in crime have been felt in the insurance industry. The incoming President of the Insurance Institute of Ireland is quoted as saying that the drop in crime is reflected in the lower number of claims reported arising out of specific criminal operations such as burglary.

Over the past ten years the criminal statistics show some interesting trends. When the Opposition were last in Government for a period of time for which we can make realistic comparisons, 1977 to 1981, the indictable crime rate increased on aggregate by 42 per cent, not a record one could be particularly proud of. Contrast that with the past four years. In 1982 and 1983 crime increased by about 9 per cent and 5 per cent respectively. In 1984, for the first time in six years, it decreased by 2.6 per cent. That trend was continued last year when a decrease of 8.5 per cent was recorded. Put another way, since 1982, when the present Government came to office, the annual crime rate has decreased overall by 6.5 per cent. Furthermore, the indications are that the decrease is continuing this year as well.

Allow me to emphasise further the Government's commitment to providing the necessary resources for the gardaí. The following figures reflect the part the Government are prepared to pay in allocating resources to the fight against crime:

Percentage change over previous year in the expenditure on the Garda Síochána Vote and in the number of indictable offences recorded.

Year

Expenditure

Indictable Offences

1983

+17.63 per cent

+4.9 per cent

1984

+7.57 per cent

-2.6 per cent

1985

+7.56 per cent

-8.5 per cent

The Opposition had their day. They failed in the fight against crime. The crime rate rose by 42 per cent in the period 1977-1981, while it fell in the past three years by 6.5 per cent. The proof of the pudding is in the eating and, when it comes to tackling crime, we on this side of the House know we have the better recipe.

Garda overtime has been bandied about in the media a lot in the last week. III-informed comment was being thrown about like snuff at a wake. There were reports of cut-backs in Border security and the withdrawal of resources from criminal investigations. There were suggestions of a cut-back in the allocation of £12 million for Garda overtime this year. These reports apparently arose out of a talk the Minister gave to a conference of chief superintendents of the Garda Síochána last week. To set the record straight, what the Minister did was to draw attention to the very high level of expenditure on Garda overtime so far this year which, were it to continue at the present rate, would be substantially out of line with the Estimates provision of £12 million. There was never any question of a reduction in the provision of £12 million.

The Minister was concerned that spending on overtime was running at a high level and he exhorted these senior officers, as part of their normal management responsibilities, to make certain that resources were deployed in such a manner as to ensure that the policing needs of their divisions were met in the most cost-effective way. That exhortation was nothing more than should be expected in the circumstances prevailing from someone who carries responsibility for public expenditure, in other words, expenditure of the taxpayers' money. Unfortunately, it provoked an appreciable amount of public and media attention, much of it, as I said already, ill-informed, and was interpreted in some quarters as meaning that a major cutback was being made in Garda overtime, with serious repercussions for security and policing generally.

I want to reiterate what has already been said on this score. There has been no cutback in Garda overtime, a cutback was never proposed nor is a cutback proposed now. The Government have, since coming into office, provided the Garda Síochána with all the resources required to carry out all the duties we expect from the force. There is no change in that position, nor will there be. That is not to say that the way in which Garda manpower and woman power and other resources are deployed and utilised cannot continually be reviewed in the normal way to ensure that the most efficient possible use is made of them. This is something that all those with management responsibility are expected to do from time to time. Whatever changes, if any, are made in Garda deployment or other procedures, the House can be assured that they will not involve any diminution in the quality or level of Garda service.

On the question of Border security, I should like to refer the House to the statement issued by the Department of Justice on Thursday last which stated that reports about a reduction in Border security were without foundation. It is not true that armed detectives are to be withdrawn from Border areas, or that special security surveillance or intelligence gathering will be affected. The necessary resources of manpower for these purposes will be provided and, in fact, steps are now being taken to make current security provisions even more effective than heretofore.

The policing needs of areas away from the Border are not being ignored either. The Garda authorities are keeping the policing needs of all areas under review and appropriate measures are being taken to ensure an adequate Garda presence in the streets of all our cities and towns.

I wish to thank Deputy Cowen for sharing his time with me and the Chair who acceded to my request.

Deputy Cowen and Deputy Briscoe have 15 minutes in which to make their contributions.

The Government are in for a severe shock when the next election is called if they persist in clapping themselves on the back because the crime statistics are falling and there is a lessening in the crime rate. People are very worried about the level of crime. Last Saturday morning I was interviewed on radio by Mr. Seán Duignan during the programme "This Week in the Dáil". I referred to the fact that there were 265 armed robberies in the first four months of this year — over two armed robberies per day. I have a very big public reaction, receiving letters and phone calls from all over the country. Today I received a letter from a person in the Minister's constituency which states:

I have just been listening to you speaking on radio re crime in this country and I would like to congratulate you. Indeed, I am sure that the vast majority of law-abiding Irish people would feel the same way as I do. When you say criminals should be heavily sentenced you are quite right, but they will have to be dealt with right away before it is too late. Like so many more things in this country, the Powers that Be wait until things are out of hand and then find themselves having to spend even more in frantic bids to curtail it. Please let us hear from you on this subject again and again. Maybe then we might see some action but it will have to be soon. People already are living in fear.

There is a scandalous level of crime in a country of this size. It is an absolute disgrace. I have a suggestion which the Minister's officials might consider. We should introduce a county jail system where people who are sentenced for any period up to a maximum of one year would be imprisoned. In parts of the United States the courtroom and the county jail are in the same building. The object is that people convicted of petty types of crime would not take up places in larger jails such as Mountjoy or Portlaoise. In many counties there are buildings suitable for conversion into county jails.

We must introduce the necessary legislation to increase maximum sentences up to 25 or 30 years for vicious crimes where people use shotguns to threaten the lives of others, sometimes three times daily throughout this country. These people must be put away for a long time. It would have a very salautary effect on people who might be thinking of going out to rob a post office. They might risk four or five years in jail for an armed robbery if the amount of money robbed was big enough, but they might be deterred by the prospect of being incarcerated for virtually the rest of their lives. That may be very tough talk but we must recognise the reality of this problem and face up to it squarely.

The Minister might examine the idea of having country jails. People might break out more easily from these units because they would not be as secure as a prison like Mountjoy. Some sort of legislation should be introduced whereby their sentence would be increased every time they escaped. An increase in their sentence of three or four months should be imposed, as well as loss of remission. If they escaped and were recaptured often enough their total sentence would be in excess of one year and they would be transferred into a larger prison. We need a prison system which can accommodate long term prisoners, while the petty offenders convicted of crimes without violence should be accommodated elsewhere.

My concern is about the increase in crimes of violence. The figures I asked for related to armed robberies. I did not ask for the figures for burglaries and break-ins where no arms were used. We must take our courage in our hands and do something soon to protect people.

The Minister referred to the decrease in the number of car thefts and quoted Deputy Bertie Ahern as complimenting the Government on that fact. I, too, would like to compliment the Government on having taken many of these joyriders off the streets and put them where they belong. The problem, however, will not vanish. The Government will have to maintain the policy of putting these people away. Where they are seen to be doing something they will get credit. Crime has become a way of life, a means of livelihood, for many people. There are not that many of these people but they are becoming more numerous.

People are very unhappy about the sentencing policies of the District Court. Recently a man who killed a woman in a hit and run accident was fined £50 for driving without due care and attention and £20 for leaving the scene of the accident. A vigilant taxi driver overhead this man talking to his friend in the back of his taxi and reported the matter to the gardaí. The man was subsequently brought to court, found guilty and fined £70. Something will have to be done about the kind of people being appointed to the District Courts. I am very unhappy about it, as are many people. When confidence in the law wanes it can be very bad for democracy. People must respect the law and the courts. When judges behave stupidly, people lose faith in democratic institutions.

Mr. Cowen

This motion calls on the Government to provide the Garda Síochána with the resources needed to enable them to deal effectively with the present unacceptable levels of crime, lawlessness and vandalism. The methodology used in assessing the statistics of crime leaves much room for improvement. That is generally acknowledged by people within the Garda Síochána and there have been some improvements in the past few years in their annual reports on crime. It has also been recognised in reports issued by Professor Rothman of the ESRI who has shown up the deficiencies in the methodology used in trying to assess properly the levels of crime, lawlessness and vandalism. It is important to ensure that we put that part of the problem right. A prerequisite for drawing up the list of priorities to tackle this major social problem is criminological research and correct crime statistics.

It has been stated by Government speakers that we are over-emphasising the ban on overtime that was mooted in the press last week and the subsequent denial by the Government. We have pointed out that only £12 million was allocated in this year's Estimates for Garda overtime. In recent parliamentary questions put down by this side of the House we have found out that in the first four months of this year £2 million per month has been used up, so there is really only £4 million left of that allocation for the next eight months of the year. If the Government are claiming that there will be no such reduction in Garda overtime as there was heretofore, it is quite clear that they will need a Supplementary Estimate under that heading of the Estimate.

The Government should come clean and tell us if they are in fact going to ensure that that level of overtime is available for the rest of the year, or if they can in some way manage to provide that level of support in the Garda services by providing only £0.5 million per month for the rest of the year whereas it has taken them £2 million per month for the first four months of the year. That is something which the Government have not come clean on but have simply issued a blanket denial. We do realise that as a result of the Anglo-Irish Agreement there has been a major redeployment of Garda forces to the Border and that has meant fewer gardaí on the streets in our own area, certainly in major urban areas, as urban Deputies can testify. It is estimated that something like 1,000 fewer gardaí are on the beat as a result of this redeployment. We should also recognise that in 1982, in our last year in Government, we recruited 983 gardaí. But, in 1985, 253 were recruited and this year none has been recruited. It is important that we give priority to the crime problem, but the performance of this Government does not seem to bear that out in terms of ensuring that we have enough recruits coming into the force and that we try to redress this imbalance that has resulted from the redeployment of forces to the Border areas.

It should also be pointed out that there are reports in existence which clearly set a path for us to follow in trying to come to grips with what is probably the result of the major social changes that have taken place here since the fifties and sixties. The crime statistics that are available from the Garda Síochána could perhaps be best supplemented by more crime victimisation surveys in various areas of activity in the social area under the heading types of crime that are becoming more prevalent. The 1985 report by Profesor Rothman and Richard Breen of the Economic and Social Research Institute quite clearly shows that in relation to household burglaries we have a problem greater than our counterparts in England, Scotland and Wales; and similarly with the larceny of vehicles, with something like twice the average of those countries. We should be getting down to the business of how we can curtail just those two levels of activity, which are not in many instances crimes of violence unless perhaps the perpetrators are interrupted.

It is necessary that we take cognisance of the fact that there is a major problem even in those two areas. The report states that the results of analysis suggests that property crime in Ireland is clearly patterned and offers the prospect that an improved allocation of personnel and a more imaginative choice among modes of policing in localities should be rewarded with success. It should be pointed out that, more so than in any other country in Europe, we have crime which is very much urban orientated. It is a fact that 73 per cent of the type of crime I have referred to happens in County Dublin. It is crazy when one considers that only 42 per cent of our Garda force are actually where that level of crime is. So we have to try to devise some strategy whereby priorities will be relevant to the facts, as are becoming obvious through these various reports and studies that are being made.

The lack of criminological research has tended to allow various prejudices and simplistic thinking to prevail in relation to how we deal with crime and who is responsible for crime. I am sure we have much crime in the white collar area in terms of fraud and embezzlement. We do not seem to give the same sort of priority to those crimes in which there is, perhaps, an even greater amount of money being lost to the State and to individuals than there is in the streets. The Government have not shown in the past three years that they are prepared to provide any of the extra personnel in the force or to redeploy existing resources, which is perhaps an even greater need within the Garda at the moment. We should try to ensure that the sort of policing we have makes for a greater presence of Garda on the streets and that the level of co-operation which might be there will be used to the optimum to ensure that we reduce the level of crime. It is simplistic to try to take some sort of laurels in relation to the reduction in the crime rates as published by the Garda Annual Report on Crime, because basically if the methodology used was more professional and efficient there would obviously be greater crime and the public would be able to have greater confidence in reporting to the Garda the various crimes that happen and which are not reported because the detection rates are so low. Therefore, I would ask the Government to be mindful of those points in relation to this debate.

The Fianna Fáil motion requests the Government to provide the Garda with the resources needed to enable them to deal effectively with the present unacceptable levels of crime, lawlessnes and vandalism. The amendment tabled by the Minister, referring to a reduction in the levels of reported crime in 1984 and 1985 and seeking support for the Government's actions, is most unreal in the light of what is happening outside.

The serious rise in indictable crimes committed in this country over recent years and particularly crimes of violence has not decreased as the daily quota of armed robberies aptly demonstrates. Any thug wishing to hold up a bank, a post office, a credit union or even a chip shop now seems to be able to get his hands on firearms to carry out an armed raid and drive away with considerable amounts of money

Very recently the Minister replied to a question put by me regarding armed raids with violence and to my astonishment informed me that, during the first three months of the year, 165 armed robberies with violence had taken place in the Dublin area alone and something in the region of £1 million was stolen. Of these 165 raids there had been, up to a couple of weeks ago, only 12 detections which is something in the region of 8 per cent and it is simply asking too much of the Dáil to stretch its imagination to such an extent that the Minister has expected in coming to the House claiming success in the battle against crime. Indeed, since I obtained that information the number of raids has increased even further and after four months we are now talking in terms of £1.4 million having being snatched by armed robbers up to the end of April. This situation is totally intolerable and must be stopped. It is the job of the Garda to stop it but they lack the authority, the resources and the necessary law to do this successfully.

The position of the Garda is further confounded by unrealistic rules and regulations designed scrupulously to protect the rights of known guilty persons under investigation and putting the Garda at a severe disadvantage in dealing with the unscrupulous, but highly organised, crime doers. It is vital that his House provides the Garda with the resources that are necessary to deal with the terrible situation they have to face.

On a daily basis our newspapers report countless robberies and criminal cases. Dublin in particular continues to suffer from an increased and appalling level of crime and vandalism. To our regret and sadness it is a city of shutters, barbed wire, expensive security systems, a city of fear. There are numerous "no-go" areas despite what the Minister might say. Our tourists and visitors are advised not to go out alone at night and that, under no circumstances should they visit certain areas at any time of the day.

Business houses are paying huge amounts for insurance, if they are fortunte enough to be able to obtain insurance, and to the neutral observer it is very obvious that the position has reached a very serious and dangerous stage.

The Minister in his speech last night talked about a decrease in the level of crime and threw out figures and statistics to back up his claim. Despite what the Minister might say in this regard, nobody will accept that the crime situation in Dublin is on the decrease. It has, to the contrary, become much more organised and the petty thief of two years ago is now a part of the very highly organised and sophisticated gang who take part in armed raids and at times are getting away with huge and substantial sums of money, jewellery and other goods.

I have the highest of respect for our Garda Force and I sympathise with them in so far as they must operate at present within very stringent limits and very obviously are not getting the support they deserve from the Minister, or his Department.

There has definitely been a change in the type of crime being committed. The criminal gangs have now perfected their techniques and when they strike nothing stands in their way between the snatch and their getaway. Armed crime has become far too common in recent times and the determination of criminals to fire has become very evident in recent months. Vicious gangs are working within the city and it is now a very regular occurrence to hear reported bank raids in the Dublin area on most days, but in particular a number are carried out on Fridays and Saturdays, when the big amounts of cash are available and on hand.

Apart from the armed raids, there are other levels of very serious crime that continue unabated, and I refer to rape, assault and, of course, housebreaking, which unfortunately appears to be the norm in most suburban areas. House insurance premiums have increased by over 100 per cent this year alone due to the vast increase in the number of breakins. Many centre city businesses cannot get any insurance cover against burglary and are trading under impossible conditions. Even where business houses provide all sorts of security systems — bars and locks — many of these businesses are still unable to get any insurance cover. There is another aspect to all of this which is very frightening, and that is the general acceptance of crime and lawlessness as a new and frightening reality.

There is a need for a new and comprehensive programme to reduce crime. The Government have failed to take positive action in the allocation of personnel and resources to do this. When one looks at the overall impact of crime and at the allocation of resources, one finds that the Government have not allocated sufficient resources to this area. It is accepted that the most valuable method of providing peace and security in homes, streets and businesses is through an effective Garda Síochána Force.

The Garda are highly respected and have been very effective in ensuring that law and order prevailed down through the years. The reality is that this Government reduced the new strength of 12,000 gardaí, introduced by Fianna Fáil in 1982, to 11,500. From the very beginning they contended they did not need as many gardaí as their predecessors felt were necessary. That was the first step towards the disastrous situation we now find ourselves in. Since the Anglo-Irish Agreement came into operation there are even fewer gardaí on our streets, as vast numbers have been drafted to Border duty. Part of the agreement obviously was increased security along the Border but I believe that, before any Irish Government entered into such an agreement, they should have ensured that the additional security would not be at the expense of our own citizens in their homes, streets and places of business.

During the past week or so there was widespread alarm about the additional cut-backs in Garda overtime and it is old hat now, of course, that this decision was denied by the Government, by the Minister of State tonight and by the Minister in his contribution last night. It is interesting indeed to really look at the wording used by the Minister last night. He said:

To put the matter in perspective what happened was that I drew attention to the very high level of expenditure on Garda overtime so far this year which, were it to continue at the present rate, would be substantially out of line with the estimates provision of £12 million.

That statement confirms, even further, that either there is a cut-back at this stage, or that there will be no overtime when the £12 million runs out. If you look at the figures up to the end of April, £8 million has already been spent in overtime and if you spread that over a full year the amount required will be £24 million. Therefore, the £12 million allocated by the Minister will run out at the end of the next month and this has already been reflected in a number of city stations where staffing of gardaí is totally inadequate during the crisis hours of 10 p.m. and 3 a.m. the following morning.

For example, in the Bridewell Station, which caters for the whole city centre and covers also a massive residential area, only one car and one motorcyle are available to the gardaí during those hours. The same applies in other city stations and during the day it is also a case of "robbing Peter to pay Paul" because gardaí have been transferred from stations all over the city to the Border and also to additional security duties to Arás an Úachtaran, Government offices, embassies and the homes of ambassadors. Many of these additional security duties were implemented following the Libyan crisis and the ordinary citizen and householder has been sacrificed by the Minister for those purposes.

How can the gardaí be expected to cope effectively with criminal activity when manpower levels are not sufficient to meet the challenges of the criminals? Civilian posts in the force are also being left unfilled because of the public service embargo. Again this is most short-sighted as it means that gardaí are being diverted from their primary function of police work to clerical and other duties. Late last year the Minister indicated that overtime would be provided where crime was a serious problem and that activities on the Border would not take from the provision of flexibility in overtime in the areas where this was needed. Not only is the bill for overtime on the Border taken from the general overtime fund, but it also results in the depletion of funds for the more effective policing of other areas. It is estimated that in all there has been a net cutback of almost 1,000 gardaí as a result of deployment to the Border.

The training of gardaí in Templemore is also out-dated and out-moded to meet the new challenges that face gardaí today, particularly in our cities. It is also imperative that every person entering the Garda Síochána should be required to undergo a new and appropriate selection process.

Another area the Minister must look at very urgently is the huge number of hours wasted by gardaí hanging around courts all over the country to give evidence in cases of, sometimes, a very petty nature. In the Dublin area, for example, one has only to go down to the Four Courts to see hundreds of gardaí sitting around waiting for their particular cases to be called and very often as many as 50 per cent of those cases are adjourned after a couple of minutes to another sitting day when the same process takes place all over again.

Reorganisation is very badly needed if we are to succeed in our battle against crime. It is clear that the Government are falling short in their allocation of resources and support to the Garda. No amount of juggling of figures, or covering up with arguments for overtime and so on, will get away from the fact that fewer gardaí are patrolling our streets.

While the Government continue to delude themselves into thinking that things are improving, the situation on the ground is disastrous. People are crying out for gardaí on the beat. It is not good enough to have highly trained men snowed under with time-consuming tasks, preparing files and statements, usually in handwriting, but the reality of the situation is that too many of our gardaí are being bogged down under reams of paper work without any secretarial or administrative assistance.

A fundamental change is needed in this organisation and the responsibility is on the Minister to set about this task and to spend less time in the bureaucratic exercise of counter-arguments in terms of percentages, figures and other statistics. The plain fact of the matter is that the people in our cities continue to be under siege more than ever from the criminal and are beginning to feel that their cries for support and assistance are being totally ignored by this Government.

They are frustrated and it is most surprising that more people have not decided to take the law into their hands to protect and safeguard themselves, their families and their property.

It is not long ago since the party on this side of the House introduced a similar motion, but we make no apologies for doing so again on this occasion as we are seriously concerned and disturbed by the continuing seriousness of crime, lawlessness and vandalism throughout the country.

I have spoken tonight mainly about the problems in the Dublin area, but I am quite sure that the situation is very similar in other cities such as Cork, Limerick, Waterford and Galway. We are asking for the resources and the support to enable the gardaí to do their jobs effectively. The Minister, and the House, should accept the Fianna Fáil motion and thus begin the long road back to the situation where our citizens can walk freely and comfortably again along our streets and relax in their homes without fear of intrusion, robbery or assault.

I hope the Minister of State will persuade the Minister to change his mind in regard to this and accept the Fianna Fáil motion tonight.

Deputy Gay Mitchell, to conclude at 8.15 p.m.

In keeping with the precedent set earlier, I ask the indulgence of the Chair to share my 15 minutes with Deputy Enright and Deputy J. Doyle.

Deputies

Agreed.

The House is aware that I am vice-chairman of the Select Committee on Crime, Lawlessness and Vandalism. Whereas I could make a Second Stage speech pondering over a number of areas, I rise to make one point which I ask the Minister of State to take cognisance of and to pursue through her Department and the Department of Foreign Affairs, and when I have made that point I will resume my seat and allow my colleague, Deputy Enright, to make his point.

Very much of the crime, as research has shown, is related to drug abuse and drug pushing. Many people steal to feed a very serious drug abuse problem which costs many in this city hundreds of pounds a week. The drugs problem is controlled, although not eradicated. It is not growing at the rate that it was and it has been eliminated in some areas, but still there is a problem which needs to be pursued at source. Most of the heroin which finds its way into this city is manufactured in Pakistan and comes to this country via Amsterdam. We must take on a diplomatic offensive to challenge the Pakistani authorities who seem not to be too concerned about the amount of heroin which is leaving their country and finding its way into countries like Ireland. We should find out from the Pakistani authorities what their attitude is. Perhaps we can find out from them through the EC as a bloc why so much heroin originates in Pakistan. The Minister's colleague, the Minister for Foreign Affairs, has an important role to play in tackling this matter at European and international levels on a one to one basis between this country and Pakistan.

Without a doubt, Amsterdam is the main distribution centre for drugs coming into this country and I as chairman of the crime committee and one or two members hope to visit Amsterdam in the near future to put our case to the authorities there and find out exactly how bad the problem is. There is no doubt that Amsterdam is the warehouse of drugs in Europe and, whatever we say, the Dutch Government traditionally take a very liberal — if that is the word — attitude towards drug abuse. The rigid rules which we are accustomed to seeing applied here and in Britain in regard to drug use and abuse are not applied there to the same extent. Within the Community and between our Government and the Dutch Government we should press for the Amsterdam authorities in particular to make moves to ensure that internationally accepted standards are applied to the control of exports of drugs such as heroin.

The London Metropolitan Police have a detective resident in Amsterdam who is their liaison officer. He looks after their interests there and liaises with the Dutch authorities and is constantly on the spot. I would like the Minister to raise with the Garda Commissioner the question of giving every consideration to assigning a Garda officer to the Irish Embassy in The Hague, but working from Amsterdam, whose job would be to liaise on behalf of the Garda drugs unit here, the Garda Síochána generally, the Department of Justice, this House and the crime committee, so that we can have information at first hand to deal with the serious problem which gives rise to other crime problems. I hope the Minister will take all those suggestions on board. I do not want to bore the House with a long speech but I hope the points I have made will be considered. If they were dealt with many of our crime problems would be eradicated.

I thank Deputy Mitchell and Fianna Fáil for their courtesy, and your good self for allowing me the opportunity to speak. I wish to draw your attention and that of the House to tonight's Evening Herald in connection with an article headed “Overtime: Garda Chaos”. I am concerned about it. Either it is true or it is not true. The first paragraph deals with Garda overtime cut-backs. I quote:

Garda overtime cutbacks are now hitting so hard that criminals are walking free from uninvestigated crimes.

I believe that is untrue. Tonight the Minister will not have an opportunity to give a detailed reply on it but I would like him to reply on it tomorrow. I continue to quote:

Last weekend, it was learned the bulk of the Garda Technical Bureau, including the Murder Squad, was shut down.

Was it shut down or not? I would like to know because I feel that the Garda Murder Squad are important. I want the chief superintendent who is responsible in this regard to state clearly and emphatically whether it was closed down. If it was closed down the chief superintendent who is in charge should be brought before the Commissioner and the Minister and asked to account for that event. The quotation continues:

One violent death was not attended to by the Murder Squad.

This is interesting because of the way it is stated. Was it attended to by the Garda? That statement is very ambiguous. A statement of that nature should not be put in that way. Was that death investigated by gardaí in the normal course of their duty? That report states that it was not attended to by the Murder Squad. Perhaps it was attended to by other gardaí. If so, has it been attended to since then? I would like more background on that serious allegation.

The present Minister and his predecessor, Deputy Noonan, have made major improvements in co-operation with the Garda Síochána in tackling crime in this city and country. They have applied themselves to their important duties in the Department, and I wish the new Minister well. The Garda force, now at 11,400 is exceptionally high, and it is important that the Government maintain that level of numbers. We have made progress in tackling the drugs problem, "joy-riding" and serious crime, and Dublin is the better for that. The Garda force have always been held in the highest respect by the people and it is important this should continue.

Last night the Minister denied that any cutbacks in overtime were ordered by him and he said that no cuts were proposed either. I hope this is correct because I believe the Minister intends to ensure that the citizens here continue to be well protected by the Garda Síochána and by the Government, and I am certain he will ensure that this is done.

In conclusion let me say that a huge number of the Garda Síochána are engaged in traffic duties in regard to parking and so on. Can the Minister try to arrange that gardaí who are involved in such simple administrative duties are channelled into areas where crime can be tackled and that other people can be assigned to those tasks?

I hope that the Minister will reply to the article to which I referred because, although no sources are mentioned, I should like more information on the matter.

The central feature of Government policy in their efforts to contain crime and to control lawlessness is to strengthen and make the Garda Síochána more effective so that there will be a greater likelihood that the criminals will be caught. We must ensure that the courts can deal effectively and expeditiously with criminals when they are caught and provide the necessary prison accommodation to contain people sentenced to imprisonment to serve their sentence in full. I am firmly convinced that the most effective deterrent is not the birch or the shotgun of the vigilante but to create a position where the detection of crime is a virtual certainty.

The Garda Síochána are to the forefront in bringing about greater deterrents and we look to them to secure detection and the apprehension of the criminal. For that reason, it is vital to have the most efficient force possible and the Government have paid special attention to that area. Additional gardaí have been assigned to areas where the Garda authorities felt the need for their service was greatest. It is the policy of the Commissioner to have as many gardaí as possible on foot patrol duty.

There has also been a substantial increase in the number of uniformed gardaí performing foot patrol duties and the operation of a new roster system has given an improved Garda presence in areas which did not have this service previously. I deny Deputy Vincent Brady's allegations in that regard. The action taken by the Garda to deal with the so-called joyriding epedimic in Dublin last year had a fair measure of success. The evidence indicates that the Garda are now winning the battle against this scourge of urban life. They established a special unit in the Dublin Metropolitian area in January 1985 to deal specifically with that type of crime and it will remain in operation for as long as it is required. Figures indicate that the problem has abated in recent months. There was a decrease of 20 per cent in the number of unauthorised takings of vehicles in 1985 compared to 1984. During the first three months of this year, there was a 20 per cent reduction in the number of unauthorised takings compared to the same period last year.

The number of incidents of ramming Garda cars is down by 66 per cent compared to the first three months of last year. The penalties for this type of offence have been increased and the unauthorised taking of motor vehicles can now attract a sentence of up to five years' imprisonment on indictment. Additional custodial accommodation has been provided to ensure that there is adequate prison accommodation so that those convicted of joyriding offences will serve their sentence in full. There is also provision in the Criminal Justice Act, 1984, for the imposition of consecutive sentences for offences committed while on bail.

I have been speaking so far about an effective Garda response to a particularly worrying category of crime. Of course, in relation to general crime, one of the most important assets which the Garda have at their disposal is the general public. The community have a vital contribution to make in the area of crime prevention. The neighbourhood watch scheme involves the community in crime prevention. It is essentially a network of public spirited people who observe what is going on in their neighbourhood and report suspicious or unusual happenings to the Garda. Civilians become the eyes and ears of the Garda with a view to counteracting the activities of criminals and vandals. So far, 174 schemes are in operation involving a total of 50,000 households. Of these, 147 schemes operate in the Dublin Metropolitian area involving 44,000 households and they contribute greatly to the prevention of crime.

The motion calls on the Government to provide resources for the Garda Síochána but it is important that other areas of the criminal justice system receive attention from the Government in the fight against crime. The Government are ensuring that there will be enough places in prison to accommodate those who have been convicted of serious crimes to serve the sentence imposed on them by the courts. The fight against crime is one of the greatest challenges facing the Government and they are determined to continue taking whatever action is open to them to meet this challenge. The Garda, sometimes at great practical cost to themselves, never flinch in their duty to serve the community. They played their part well in the past and I have no doubt that they will continue to do so in future.

In replying to this debate on behalf of my party, I should like to thank Deputies from both sides of the House who contributed in such a constructive way. I said on a number of previous occasions in the House that I do not regard the general area of justice administration as one for political point scoring. The very nature and jurisdiction of the Department call for, it not a united approach, certainly one of commitment and responsibility from all sides of the House. It is, therefore, with some regret that I listened to the Minister's reply last night which, for him, was unusually politically arrogant and did not address itself to the issues and problems facing the people and in a more pressing way, the gardaí who have to administer the law on our behalf.

Ten years ago, a relatively short period in political terms, a motion of this kind would not have been necessary. Contrast that with the increasing amount of time given by the House in the past four years in debating the various activities of the Department of Justice and one gets some idea of the increasing demands being placed on the various agencies within that Department. It reflects the serious deterioration in law and order and the inadequate resources of the State in dealing with that very serious problem.

The level of crime and lawbreaking generally reflect the level of success or failure of the Government in the area of economic and social legislation. Even the statistics quoted by the Minister last night fully vindicate my conviction in that regard. I have spoken on a number of occasions about the various activities of the Department of Justice and I have always based my arguments on the fact that the general breakdown in law and order reflects the level of success of the Government's policies. When one compares the deteriorating graph, the increasing unemployment and the frightening increase in the level of crime, it is clear that what I say can be fully borne out. Does it not follow that the more we fail in our efforts to create jobs and improve living standards the more we will have to spend on protecting society from the backlash of those who are the victims of the Government's failure in this important area of administration.

I am sure the House will agree that we are now caught in a vicious circle and have to provide scarce resources to protect society when an earlier and positive commitment to channelling that same amount of money into realistic development programmes would have eliminated the need for this additional expenditure on security. I have no doubt that the Government have got their priorities wrong in terms of public expenditure. They would be better employed channelling as much of our national resources as possible into productive areas of the economy in order to create jobs. If they did that there would be a corresponding reduction in the demands on the Department of Justice in regard to citizen protection. In carrying out a cost-benefit analysis of the various areas of Government expenditure the Government should also cost social failures. A lot of lip service is being paid to the importance of getting the maximum possible return from public expenditure but we do not always take into consideration the result of the social problems that arise because of failure to invest adequately in certain areas of the economy.

I was disappointed that the Minister in his contribution last night desperately clung to and seemed to be totally dependent on past development in his Department and in the Garda Síochána rather than outlining his plans for future improvements.

The Deputy should read my speech again.

I read the speech again today in the hope that I would find an indication of the Minister's plans for the future. The Minister spent most of his time outlining the technological advancements in the area of communications but improvements in that area were not initiated by him or his predecessor. It is nothing short of political expediency for the Minister to claim any credit for that. I am not claiming credit for Members on this side of the House but the Minister, who is a reasonably honest man, is aware that long before he or his predecessor took charge of the Department of Justice provision had been made to develop the communications network.

The Deputy is bordering on the unparliamentary.

Crime is at an all time high and I do not wish to be dramatic or sensational in dealing with this.

It is not. It has fallen for the last two years.

All Members should be constructive in their contributions to debates on topics like this but no level of propaganda by the Minister, or by the Government propaganda machine, will convince ordinary citizens that there has been any real improvement in regard to crime on our streets.

This is not the Deputy's usual constructive style at all.

I acknowledge the dedication and level of commitment by members of the Garda Síochána. They have been doing an excellent job despite the serious financial restrictions under which they must operate. The Government, and the Minister for Justice, deserve credit for the decrease in joyriding in Dublin city. Deputy Woods expressed concern about that on many occasions in the House and the Government reacted to that concern. We have a reactionary Government and I am pleased to note that they reacted on almost all occasions when Members on this side of the House highlighted the deterioration in law and order. I hope that as a result of our motion tonight the Government will react and bring about an improvement in regard to crime.

Apart from the human evidence, in terms of fear and insecurity, of the level of crime in our society, the problem is confirmed in a positive and monetarist way by the failure of insurance companies to accept applications or to charge prohibitive premiums for certain areas. I should like to compliment our citizens on their concern in establishing and participating in the community watch scheme. That scheme was initiated by this side of the House and I congratulate the Minister on giving it his full backing. It has proved to be a worthwhile development and it is being backed by the community.

(Interruptions.)

It was not introduced by the Opposition.

The fact that it was necessary for the community to respond in such a positive way is an indication of the deterioration in law and order.

The Deputy is mixing this up with Cabinet watch.

The Deputy will be all right if his tap is not turned off.

I listened attentively to all the Minister said last night and I did not interrupt him. I hope the House will afford me the same courtesy that I afforded him. No amount of heckling from the Government side will deter me in my efforts to make my contribution. Despite what the Minister has said there is a growing concern in the Garda force about the absence of support from the House. Members of the force feel exposed and insecure about where the force is going in the future. The immediate challenge facing the Minister and the House is not only the need for technological aids for the Garda but the establishment of an acceptable organisational structure in the force which will be conducive to good morale. Good policing should be acknowledged and encouraged.

In the course of contributions in earlier debates I called for the establishment of an independent police authority. Such a body is long overdue and if the Minister is giving serious thought to the establishment of a modern police force he should have made some reference to that in his speech last night. It appears that the Government have lost their will and their appetite for real reform. Lack of resources is the hackneyed excuse for the Government's inactivity.

There is no lack of extra resources. We are making extra resources available.

A lot of progress could be made in regard to reforming the structures under which our gardaí operate without the need for additional expenditure or taxation. The Minister is well aware that it would not cost money to put through the legislation that is needed to improve the climate under which the Garda must operate. Just six years ago the Criminal Justice Bill was piloted through the House by our spokesman, Dr. Woods.

The Criminal Justice Act was passed in 1984. This is a joke.

The country acknowledges that our spokesman on Justice at that time held the Minister's predecessor day after day debating that Bill. Deputy Woods introduced many amendments which changed the structure of the Bill and we are given more credit for that than the Minister.

The Deputy should tell us about Lenihan's meeting in the West County.

The Criminal Justice Bill was debated here three years ago.

Deputy Hyland should be allowed to make his contribution without interruption.

The Minister's speech last night was more notable for its evasiveness and its failure to deal with reality than for any evidence of a positive nature in regard to reform. The Minister is trying to convey the impression that there has not been a cutback in regard to financial resources for the unrestricted operation of the Garda Síochána when the opposite is the case? The Minister of State tonight tried to indicate that there have not been cutbacks. How can the Minister explain that at a time when there is an increasing demand on Garda manpower arising out of the need for additional Border security and the rise in crime, the strength of the force is 600 below the number approved by the House in 1982?

The strength of the force is the highest it has ever been. How can the Deputy pretend that the provision of more money means a cutback?

I want to express my concern about the effects of the financial cuts on the prison services and security.

Deputy Hyland's time is almost up.

The House does not need to be reminded of the importance of providing the highest possible level of security at Portlaoise Prison. In recent months we had evidence of serious breaches of security which, in one instance, resulted in books of evidence containing names and details of prison officers being circulated ad lib to a number of people.

I want the Minister to take particular note of what I have to say because the Minister of State this evening said that we were making statements we could not substantiate. I want to warn the Minister that the security in operation in the prison at Portlaoise has now been dangerously weakened as a result of overtime cuts. Security posts around the prison are being left unmanned if there are no gardaí to man them within the normal tour of duty. In other words, if any of these important security posts in Portlaoise Prison cannot be filled in the normal course of garda duty, then they are left vacant. One might well contrast that with the situation of just a few months ago when two gardaí were seriously disciplined because they had left their posts for a very short period. Now the Government are condoning a situation in which the security in that prison is being totally undermined as a result of their unwillingness to make adequate funding available for the financing of security.

Question put: "That the amendment be made".

The Dáil divided: Tá, 71; Níl, 63.

  • Allen, Bernard.
  • Barnes, Monica.
  • Barrett, Seán.
  • Barry, Myra.
  • Barry, Peter.
  • Begley, Michael.
  • Bell, Michael.
  • Bermingham, Joe.
  • Birmingham, George Martin.
  • Boland, John.
  • Bruton, John.
  • Bruton, Richard.
  • Carey, Donal.
  • Cluskey, Frank.
  • Conlon, John F.
  • Connaughton, Paul.
  • Coogan, Fintan.
  • Cooney, Patrick Mark.
  • Cosgrave, Liam T.
  • Cosgrave, Michael Joe.
  • Coveney, Hugh.
  • Creed, Donal.
  • D'Arcy, Michael.
  • Deasy, Martin Austin.
  • Desmond, Eileen.
  • Donnellan, John.
  • Dowling, Dick.
  • Doyle, Avril.
  • Doyle, Joe.
  • Dukes, Alan.
  • Durkan, Bernard J.
  • Enright, Thomas W.
  • Fennell, Nuala.
  • FitzGerald, Garret.
  • Flaherty, Mary.
  • Flanagan, Oliver J.
  • Glenn, Alice.
  • Hegarty, Paddy.
  • Hussey, Gemma.
  • Kavanagh, Liam.
  • Kelly, John.
  • Kenny, Enda.
  • L'Estrange, Gerry.
  • McGinley, Dinny.
  • McLoughlin, Frank.
  • Manning, Maurice.
  • Mitchell, Gay.
  • Mitchell, Jim.
  • Molony, David.
  • Moynihan, Michael.
  • Nealon, Ted.
  • Noonan, Michael. (Limerick East)
  • O'Brien, Fergus.
  • O'Brien, Willie.
  • O'Keeffe, Jim.
  • O'Leary, Michael.
  • O'Sullivan, Toddy.
  • O'Toole, Paddy.
  • Owen, Nora.
  • Pattison, Séamus.
  • Prendergast, Frank.
  • Quinn, Ruairí.
  • Ryan, John.
  • Shatter, Alan.
  • Sheehan, Patrick Joseph.
  • Skelly, Liam.
  • Spring, Dick.
  • Taylor, Mervyn.
  • Taylor-Quinn, Madeline.
  • Timmins, Godfrey.
  • Yates, Ivan.

Níl

  • Ahern, Bertie.
  • Andrews, David.
  • Aylward, Liam.
  • Barrett, Michael.
  • Brady, Gerard.
  • Brady, Vincent.
  • Brennan, Mattie.
  • Brennan, Paudge.
  • Briscoe, Ben.
  • Browne, John.
  • Burke, Raphael P.
  • Byrne, Hugh.
  • Byrne, Seán.
  • Calleary, Seán.
  • Collins, Gerard.
  • Conaghan, Hugh.
  • Coughlan, Cathal Seán.
  • Cowen, Brian.
  • Daly, Brendan.
  • De Rossa, Proinsias.
  • Doherty, Seán.
  • Fahey, Francis.
  • Fahey, Jackie.
  • Faulkner, Pádraig.
  • Fitzgerald, Liam Joseph.
  • Flynn, Pádraig.
  • Foley, Denis.
  • Gallagher, Denis.
  • Gallagher, Pat Cope.
  • Geoghegan-Quinn, Máire.
  • Harney, Mary.
  • Hilliard, Colm.
  • Hyland, Liam.
  • Keating, Michael.
  • Kirk, Séamus.
  • Kitt, Michael.
  • Lenihan, Brian.
  • Leonard, Jimmy.
  • Leonard, Tom.
  • Leyden, Terry.
  • McCarthy, Seán.
  • McCreevy, Charlie.
  • McEllistrim, Tom.
  • Mac Giolla, Tomás.
  • Morley, P. J.
  • Moynihan, Donal.
  • Nolan, M. J.
  • Noonan, Michael J. (Limerick West)
  • O'Connell, John.
  • O'Dea, William.
  • O'Hanlon, Rory.
  • O'Leary, John.
  • Ormonde, Donal.
  • O'Rourke, Mary.
  • Power, Paddy.
  • Reynolds, Albert.
  • Treacy, Noel.
  • Wallace, Dan.
  • Walsh, Joe.
  • Walsh, Seán.
  • Wilson, John P.
  • Woods, Michael.
  • Wyse, Pearse.
Tellers: Tá, Deputies F. O'Brien and Taylor; Níl, Deputies V. Brady and Barrett,(Dublin North-West).
Question declared carried.
Question: "That motion No. 48, as amended, be agreed to" put and declared carried.
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