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Dáil Éireann debate -
Friday, 13 Jun 1986

Vol. 367 No. 11

Estimates, 1986. - Vote 31: Office of the Minister for Education (Revised Estimate).

I move:

That a sum not exceeding £84,670,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of December, 1986, for the salaries and expenses of the Office of the Minister for Education (including the National Library) for certain miscellaneous educational and cultural services and for payment of sundry grants-in-aid.

The five Votes for which I am responsible as Minister for Education continue to represent a very considerable proportion of Exchequer expenditure. Taken together, the amounts sought for 1986 for the Education group of Votes represent 16 per cent of the combined total of all votes. The following are some particulars of the overall figures.

The total gross provision for 1986 in the five year Votes together is £1,096.8 million, including £79.3 million as Appropriations-in-Aid. The comparable provisional outturn for 1985 is £1,035.4 million, including £61.3 million Appropriations-in-Aid. The amount being sought for 1986 represents an increase of £61.4 million or 6 per cent over the 1985 provisional outturn.

In addition to the provision sought in these five Votes, a sum of £24.1 million is being provided from the Vote for Labour — No. 41 — from youth employment levy funds, towards the cost of vocational preparation and training courses and middle level technician courses. The total overall amount being provided for the education services is thus £1,120.9 million, £57.5 million or 5 per cent more than the comparable 1985 figure of £1,063.4 million. Of the amounts provided for in the Education Votes, £100.547 million is for capital projects, an increase of £6.3 million or 7 per cent over 1985.

The gross non-capital provision is £996.2 million as against £941.1 million for 1985, an increase of £55.1 million. Of this, £792.5 million is for pay and pensions, an increase of £31.7 million or 4 per cent over the 1985 provisional outturn. Pay and pensions in 1986 will account for 79.6 per cent of the total current expenditure as against 80.8 per cent for 1985. However, the amount sought for 1986 does not include provision for any additional costs arising from increases in rates of remuneration under the proposed public service pay deal. The provision for non-pay non-capital expenditure is £203.7 million, £23.4 million or 13 per cent more than 1985.

In framing the estimates for the education services in 1986 the Government had to take account not only of the need to maintain the existing level of services but also of the need to cater for the continuing increase in the numbers of students. Despite a reduction in the birth rate in recent years the numbers of pupils at all levels of education are still increasing. The number of pupils at primary level is expected to peak in 1987-88. The increase will continue at second level and third level for many years to come, however, as the larger intakes at primary level work through the system. An additional 12,000 students must be provided for in the 1986-87 school year. This continual increase would place a strain on resources at the best of times, and it is a particular problem now when available resources are so limited and subject to so many demands.

Despite the limitations imposed by increasing numbers and available resources, some measures have been incorporated in the Estimates to channel resources into areas of greater need in line with the priorities established in the national plan Building on Reality and in the Programme for Action in Education, 1984-87. These include an increase in the rate of capitation grant payable in respect of pupils in national schools from £22 to £24 per pupil. Since 1982 the rate of grant has increased from £15 to £24, an increase of 60 per cent; an increase of £4 in the rate of grant payable to secondary schools within the free post-primary education scheme; an increase of £0.25 million in the fund for special assistance to primary schools in disadvantaged areas, bringing the total to £0.75 million; an additional 50 remedial teaching posts in primary schools and 55 remedial and guidance posts in post-primary schools; increasing the maintenance element of higher education student grants and income limits for eligibility for these grants in line with inflation; an increase of 6 per cent in the funding of in-service training of teachers; an additional £0.5 million for sport services; an additional £2 million for youth services.

I will now touch briefly on each of the individual Votes. The net provision sought for the Vote for the Office of the Minister for Education is £84.67 million. This Vote provides for the administrative costs of the Department of Education itself as well as for the National Library and miscellaneous educational services.

The capital costs of the building and equipping of national schools have for many years been provided for in the Vote for Primary Education while much of the work involved was carried out by the Office of Public Works. Responsibility for this work and the staff engaged on it were transferred to the Department of Education in 1985 and provision is included in this Vote in 1986 for the remuneration and other costs of the staff transferred. This transfer provides the opportunity to bring the entire educational building operation — for first, second and third level education — into an expanded building division within the Department of Education.

In addition, responsibility for certain aspects of youth policy has been transferred from the Minister for Labour to the Minister for Education. Provision is made for these services in subheads D11 and E7 and for the associated pay costs in subhead A1.

The increase in the Vote for the Office of the Minister, of £8.594 million over 1985 is mainly due to: an increase of £3.4 million in the cost of the higher education grants scheme; an increase of £1.3 million in the cost of the school transport services; an additional £2 million for youth services; a provision of £0.5 million for a public service sports and recreation complex.

Subhead A1 provides for the cost of salaries and allowances of the staff of the Department including the staff of the National Library and Genealogical Office. The continuing application of restrictions in the appointment of staff is reflected in the decreased number of posts being provided for namely, 1,057 posts in 1986 against 1,088 posts in 1985. Both these figures include the additional staff transferred to the Department from the Office of Public Works in respect of national school building work and from the Department of Labour in respect of youth services.

Additional money is being provided in subhead A3 for office machinery and other office supplies and in subhead A5 for consultancy services to enable the use of computer equipment in the day to day work of the Department to be extended.

Significant progress will be made this year in the area of computerisation within my Department. Developments are well under way for the installation of a computerised schools information system. The hardware and the software are being installed and there will then be a period during which information will be gathered on all schools and colleges.

The computerisation of the certificate examinations is continuing. The planning and design phases of the project have been completed and I hope to be in a position shortly to issue tender documents in respect of the hardware and software required to implement the project with a view to having some of the major examination processes computerised for the 1987 examinations.

A sum of £17 million is provided in subhead C1 for higher education grants to students. This provision is for the recoupment to local authorities of the grants paid by them in 1985 under the Local Authorities (Higher Education Grants) Acts, 1968 and 1978. It is expected that over 10,800 students will be in receipt of these grants during the academic year 1985-86, more than double the number of grant holders in 1980-81. The cost of the grants has increased accordingly from £3.4 million in 1981 to £17 million in 1986, an increase of 400 per cent. As promised in the national plan, the provisions of the scheme were updated in 1985 as follows: the income eligibility limits were increased by 11 per cent; the maintenance element was increased by 16 per cent; a tapering mechanism of eligibility limits was introduced so as to provide for the partial payment of fees.

The income eligibility limits and the maintenance element of the grants will be increased in line with inflation in 1986 also. I might mention here that this scheme of grants does not include all the grant aid available to third level students. Separate provision is made for other schemes for students as follows: university scholarships, research grants and fellowship in subhead C2 of the Vote for the Office of the Minister for Education; grants to students at Thomond College of Education in subhead D6 of the Vote for the Office of the Minister for Education; grants and loans to students at Colleges of Education for national teachers in subhead A2 of the Vote for Primary Education; grants to students in training colleges for teachers of home economics in subhead E of the Vote for Post-Primary Education; VEC third-level scholarships and ESF grants to students on middle-level technician and similar courses in subhead A2 of the Vote for Post-Primary Education.

The area of student support is one in which Coalition Governments have a good record. For example, the estimated provision for the higher education grants scheme in 1985-86 is £17 million as compared to less than £4 million before the introduction, by a Coalition Government, in 1981-82 of major improvements in the scheme. In 1980-81 the year before the much improved scheme of higher education grants was introduced there was a total of about 11,500 students or just over 27 per cent of the student body in receipt of a grant or a scholarship. For the academic year 1984-85 just 24,000 third-level students or 46 per cent got their fees paid and the majority of these also received maintenance allowances under either the higher education grants scheme, VEC scholarships or grants from the European Social Fund. This latter source of funding has been of tremendous benefit in the regional technical colleges where in the last academic year 12,300 students benefited by way of fee and maintenance grants compared to 4,800 in 1980-81.

The school transport service will cost over £36 million in 1986. Approximately £3.4 million will be paid by way of charges and the net cost to the Department will be £32.963 million. The number of eligible children using the service in November 1985 was 155,000, of whom 86,000 were post-primary pupils. About 39,000 of these were exempt from paying the charges under the medical card concession. The number of eligible primary pupils who were carried free was 69,000. At present, about 13,000 pupils avail themselves of concessionary fare paying transport on special school buses, over 12,000 of them primary pupils. The rate of charge payable was increased from January 1986 by amounts which were of the order of 5 per cent and this increase was intended to reflect inflation.

It will be necessary to raise the rates again from September 1986. My Department are very conscious both of the importance of this transport scheme and of the need to achieve the greatest possible efficiency and cost effectiveness in order to arrest the continually increasing cost. An examination has been carried out by an inter-departmental group reporting to a sub-committee of the Cabinet responsible for reviewing schemes and programmes and their report is being considered.

A sum of £225,000 is being provided in subhead D10 for the general expenses of the Curriculum and Examinations Board. The interim board presented their report In Our Schools: A framework for Curriculum and Assessment to me on 25 March 1986. The report gives an account of the board's activities to date, sets out board policy and makes recommendations regarding curriculum and assessments for primary schools and for junior and senior cycles of post-primary schools. In particular, the board recommend the replacement of the existing intermediate and group certificate examinations by a new examination to be called the certificate of general education. The report also recommends that a major review of the primary school curriculum should be initiated. I am having this important report considered by my Department at present and I shall respond to it as soon as possible. Draft legislation to establish the board on a statutory basis is at an advanced stage. Course committees are being put in place by the board at present with the objective of reviewing and updating the various courses taught in our schools.

The need for curriculum reform is now widely recognised. At a time of great change in society, particularly in patterns of both work and leisure activities, it is necessary to ensure that school courses maintain their relevance. It is also necessary to keep courses up-to-date in terms of new knowledge, especially in the rapidly expanding areas of science and technology.

One curricular area of particular concern to me is that of modern languages. I am very pleased that oral examinations in modern continental languages have been introduced for the first time into the leaving certificate examination this year. This completes the process of revision which has been taking place in recent years, with new syllabuses introduced and both listening comprehension and oral tests now featuring as complementary elements to written examinations. There is a major emphasis on language as communication, rather than just as an academic/literary study.

If we are to play our part as Europeans and if our young people are to be able to derive the benefits which our EC membership offers, then the development of language skills will prove most important. Our young people must be equipped to make their contribution to Europe, which in every other way our educational system qualifies them to do. It will be increasingly important for Ireland's future that language barriers and the inability to communicate with our European colleagues should not hamper our capacity to reap new opportunities, whether it be in terms of gaining employment or in winning new markets for Irish goods. We have a large number of highly educated young people, at a time when many of our European partners are experiencing a decline in such numbers. This must bring new opportunities which we can only grasp fully if we give emphasis now to the best possible training in language skills.

A sum of £1.313 million is included in subhead D11 for capital grants to voluntary youth, sport and community bodies to assist and encourage local initiatives towards the construction of recreational, leisure and community facilities, a service which has been included in the Labour Vote since 1983 and £880,000 of this amount ensures that the specific developments for which grants have been approved previously may proceed this year. A further £113,000 is to meet commitments expected to arise this year in respect of five projects in the Bantry area identified as part of the West Cork Development Package.

There is a substantial increase in the amount being provided in subhead E5 as a grant-in-aid fund for the general expenses of sports organisations and miscellaneous sports activities. This service was introduced in 1970. Since then, it has been expanded and now includes, since 1979, the funding of activities designed to promote and develop sport through Cospóir, the National Sports Council.

Sport will be one of the main beneficiaries of the national lottery which is to be established. In anticipation of this funding, a committee has been set up to examine the requirements of a national sports centre.

The 5th Conference of European Sports Ministers will be held in the Royal Hospital, Kilmainham, Dublin, from 29 September to 2 October 1986. The conference is being hosted by Ireland under the aegis of the Council of Europe. It will be attended by Sports Ministers from 24 European countries and the Canadian Minister who will be attending as an observer. In addition top level representatives will be in attendance from the Council of Europe, the European Commission, UNESCO and international Sports Organisations including the International Olympic Committee.

As already mentioned, responsibility for certain aspects of youth services has been transferred to the Department of Education from the Department of Labour. These services will be administered nationally by a new community education and training division in the Department of Education. A sum of £5 million is provided in subhead E7 for these services in 1986. In December 1985 the Government published their national youth policy In partnership with Youth. This fulfilled the commitment, entered into by the present Government on taking up office, that they would produce a comprehensive youth policy which would seek to meet the real needs of our nation's youth. It was published following examination of the report of the National Youth Policy Committee which was chaired by Mr. Justice Declan Costello.

The national youth policy is a comprehensive statement of the Government's intentions in relation to the development of our young people. It centres around the creation of a national youth service which will be a distinct and independent service based on existing provision by youth and other voluntary organisations and with effective links to other established services for youth. Its purpose will be the social and political education of young people in a society which is undergoing accelerating and sometimes dramatic changes. The policy recognises the primary task of the national youth service as offering young people, on the basis of their voluntary involvement, developmental and educational experiences which will equip them to play an active part in our democratic society.

The net provision sought for the Vote for Primary Education is £379.71 million, an increase of £5.381 million. Pay and pensions account for £333 million of this total of 3 per cent more than the 1985 expenditure. Capital building, equipping and furnishing costs of national schools, at £28.234 million, account for the bulk of the balance.

Subhead A1 contains provision for the grants paid towards the cost of the colleges of education which provide the initial training of national teachers. The lower birth rate of recent years and the projections of pupil numbers for the years to come allied to the relatively low wastage from the ranks of primary teachers has made it necessary to face up to the problems posed by overcapacity in our training colleges. It was for this reason that the Government made an announcement in February 1986 in regard to the phasing out of teacher taining at Our Lady of Mercy College, Carysfort. I look forward to a continued and distinguished contribution to Irish education from this college in whatever new role may emerge from the deliberations of the informal committee which I have constituted to examine the question. The committee's work is proceeding and, while not operating to a particular time schedule, the members are aware that all interested parties, not least myself, are anxious for an early report.

The number of national teachers continues to increase and currently stands at over 21,100 in 3,395 national schools. It is expected that about 250 additional teaching posts will be created in 1986, 200 to cater for growth in enrolment and 50 remedial teaching posts. In addition, £4.8 million is being provided in respect of the cost of substitute teachers employed during illness and maternity leave.

A separate provision is being made in 1986 subhead C3 for the programme of special assistance for schools in disadvantaged areas and the amount available is being increased from £0.5 million to £0.75 million. This programme was initiated in 1984 when 34 schools catering for approximately 10,000 pupils were assisted. In 1985, as well as providing additional assistance to continue the initiatives taken in 1984, a further 57 schools catering for 20,000 pupils were selected to participate. The measures from which the schools have benefited include the following: special grants for books and equipment; the sponsorship of homeschool/community liaison schemes in co-operation with boards of management the organisation of special in-service training for the teachers involved.

In addition, funds have been provided under this programme for the relief of school debts and for pre-school facilities for travellers' children. The increased provision for 1986 will enable the programme to be expanded further as well as continuing the support for schools participating during 1984 and 1985.

The provision in subhead C4 for grants for equipment for special education is being continued. A total of 1,041 schools benefit from the provision of remedial teaching posts. Each remedial teaching scheme gets an initial grant of £229 for equipment, with a further £125 and £120 approximately in the second and third years. The remedial scheme is being extended annually by about 30 posts. Grants are also made from this provision for equipment in schools for the visually impaired and the hearing impaired and for practical activities — woodwork, arts, crafts etc. — in special schools and in vocational training centres. These grants are complemented in the case of schools in disadvantaged areas by grants from the fund for special assistance for schools in disadvantaged areas.

Grants will continue to be available from the provision in subhead C3 towards the travelling and subsistence expenses of visiting teachers of the deaf, hearing impaired, blind and visually impaired, and travellers' children, much of whose work involves visiting childrens' homes.

National school teacher superannuation will cost over £44 million in 1986. Lump sums and other gratuities and initial pension awards are based on salary levels at retirement but pensions are revised periodically to give pensioners the benefit of increases in the remuneration of serving teachers. While the number of pensioners to be provided for in 1986 is lower than the 1985 figure — 4,691 as against 4,736 — the cost will increase by almost £2 million. Provision is also made for payment of pensions to spouses and children of former teachers. The current superannuation scheme for national teachers was established in 1934. Prior to that, pensions were payable under the National School Teachers (Ireland) Act, 1879, and these pensions continued to be paid to those who qualified for them prior to the establishment of the current scheme. In 1986, for the first time, it is no longer necessary to make provision for payment of pension to teachers who retired before 1934.

Over £28 million is being provided as part of the public capital programme for the building, equipping and furnishing of national schools. The national school capital building programme provides for the building of new schools in developing areas, the replacement of obsolete buildings and the extension of school buildings. About 13,750 pupil places will be provided in 1986. There will be approximately 130 major projects in progress at any one time and throughout the year about 170 major projects will have been grant-aided. Some of the new places will enable temporary accommodation to be phased out or will replace old conventionally built accommodation which is unsuitable and does not meet modern standards.

On the vote for post-primary education the net estimate for 1986 is £440.629 million, an increase of £26.51 million or 6 per cent over 1985. This Vote provides in the main for the current and capital costs of second level schools, and colleges administered by vocational education committees.

£177.589 million is being provided for salary and allowances of secondary teachers. This includes £2.75 million to meet the cost of authorised substitution and of certain part-time teachers. There are just over 12,000 secondary teachers in receipt of incremental salary.

£121.3 million is being provided as grants to vocational education committees in subhead A2. These grants cover, in addition to pay costs and general running expenses, such expenses as the cost of servicing capital loans, third-level scholarships awarded by VECs, and grants to students on ESF-aided courses. In addition to the amount provided in this subhead, £20 million of the £24.16 million which will be available from the Vote 41 for Labour will be applied to vocational training courses run by VECs.

The Government have decided, in the context of the 1986 Estimates, that the payment of capitation grants to fee-paying secondary schools will not be made for the 1986-87 school year. A sum of £410,000 is included in subhead C1 for this service in respect of grants due to the end of July.

In the case of secondary schools within the free education scheme, the rate of per capita grant has been increased by £4 per pupil to £140 with effect from 1 January, 1986.

£38 million is being provided for capital expenditure on construction, furniture, equipment and professional fees in the case of secondary, vocational and community/comprehensive schools and for sites other than for secondary schools. The investment in post-primary building represents a sustained commitment, despite the economic climate, to a programme designed to meet with growth in enrolments arising through population growth as well as population shifts, to replace unsatisfactory accommodation and to meet the backlog of places for which short term arrangements were made mainly in the form of temporary prefabricated accommodation. About 9,000 pupil places were provided in 1985 and a further 8,500 to 9,000 will be provided in 1986. Altogether about 140,000 permanent places have been provided in the period 1966 to 1985 against a growth in enrolments in excess of 192,000.

Subhead G of this Vote also provides for the capital costs of regional technical colleges, colleges of technology, and colleges for the training of teachers of home economics. As part of the Government's programme for the expansion of the number of places available for third level students, provision is made for developments at the Dublin colleges of technology, and new regional colleges in the Dublin area and at Castlebar and Thurles.

Contributions from the European Social Fund are expected to amount to £44.5 million in 1986. These contributions are appropriated in aid of the Vote as shown in Subhead L, subsection 5. It is not surprising in current difficult employment circumstances that questions should be addressed to education such as: could more young people secure employment if they had been more adequately prepared, or, would better preparation in itself lead to more jobs? Undoubtedly many young people had fallen behind in the pursuit of equality and undoubtedly, too, the leaving certificate, with the inevitable academic emphasis as an avenue to third level, was not the ideal framework for those whose immediate target was a job.

In 1977, the Department, with ESF assistance, introduced the pre-employment programme of one year duration into vocational, community and comprehensive schools. It sought to address the frequent criticism with regard to basics, practical skills and attitudes, particularly attitudes towards work and standards of work. For motivation it relied on activity, or learning through doing, and it dispensed with the usual type of reward through certification. Rewards for those with appropriate competence and attitudes would be a job or a start in life. For eight years this programme proved quite successful, but admittedly for a relatively small number of 4,000 by 1984.

In 1984, again with ESF assistance, the Department revamped and expanded the programme under the title vocational training and preparation and extended it to all categories of second-level school, for young people in the age range of 15-18 years and with allowances for participants. The uptake increased remarkably, rising as it did to 16,000 approximately. In the next session the enrolment is likely to rise to 25,000 and in the longer term may well rise to 27,000. The Department are committed to supporting this programme so long as ESF aid continues.

The Department have introduced a second year of the programme at centres that are appropriately staffed and equipped. It is intended that certification will be provided at the end of the second year to facilitate an upward progression in the general area of training and education.

It is now required that young people on vocational training and preparation programmes be registered with the National Manpower Service. Responsibility for those between 15 and 18 years who have clearly left the educational system rests with the manpower authorities, namely the Youth Employment Agency, An Comhairle Oiliúna and the National Manpower Service in close co-operation with the education authorities. The Government have been anxious to clarify the roles of the various agencies involved in vocational education and training and recently adopted a series of decisions on the question of co-ordination of education, training and manpower services. These decisions approved the setting up of two groups to ease the problems of transition from school to work, namely:

(i)a Social Guarantee Advisory Board to involve both educational and manpower interests to oversee the implementation in the Irish context of the Social Guarantee.

(ii)a high-level liaison committee set up under the chairmanship of the Minister of State at the Departments of Education and Labour to improve communication between the education and training systems.

In talking about utilisation of resources one has to be conscious of the role of the European Social Fund in the development of training in this country. Since 1977 the level of aid from the Social Fund committed to programmes operated by the Department of Education has increased from £2 million to £54 million in 1985. Given the difficult budgetary problems facing the EC, particularly in the context of enlargement, it is clear that the favourable percentage of the ESF devoted to Ireland — 12.75 per cent in 1985 — is unlikely to be maintained. Any significant reduction in this level of aid would have major implications for the continuance of the vocational preparation and training programme and other training programmes operated by the Department of Education.

The net estimate for the Vote for Special Schools for 1986 is £4.159 million, an increase of £0.793 million or 24 per cent over 1985. This Vote provides for the operating of capital costs of special schools for children in care. These include: Finglas children's centre, St. Joseph's special school, Clonmel, Cuan Mhuire, Whitehall, and Trinity House Lusk. The provision for operating costs in subhead A is less than the 1985 expenditure due to the closure of Scoil Ard-Mhuire, Lusk, as a result of falling enrolments and the increasing trend towards dealing with the problems of these young people in community-based projects. The substantial capital provision in subhead C is intended, in the main, for modernising and refurbishing the special school in Clonmel.

The amount being sought for the Vote for Higher Education is £108.289 million. £2.098 million or 2 per cent more than the 1985 outturn. This is mainly for the current and capital costs of third level institutions funded through the Higher Education Authority. The provision in the Vote does not represent, however, the full resources available to these institutions as it does not include fee income. Neither does this Vote represent the cost of the full range of higher education as the provision for the third level courses conducted in RTCs, colleges of technology and colleges of home economics is included in the Vote for Post Primary Education while the primary teacher training colleges are provided for in the vote for Primary Education.

The Government in their plan Building on Reality have committed themselves to providing third level education for as many young people as possible. This commitment derives from recognition by the Government of the value to this country of a well educated and highly skilled population. The skills which our young people possess have paid off, and will continue to pay off, in terms of attracting the establishment of high technology industry here.

Total student enrolment in third level in 1973-74 was 28,500. In the current academic year the figure is in excess of 53,000, an increase of 86 per cent in the 12 year period. The number of third level students will continue to increase and will be in the order of 66,000 by 1990-91 and 70,000 by 1995-96. In line with Government policy to provide additional and improved accommodation at third level a major programme of capital investment was announced during 1985 at a total estimated cost of £126.5 million.

The new student places being provided will, however, fall significantly below those required for projected student enrolment in 1991-92. To cater for the greatly increased number of students the third level sector must become more cost effective and productivity must be improved. Significant extra productivity has been achieved from third level institutions in recent years but we must not rest content if we are to meet successfully the challenge which faces us. Ways must be found by which the higher education sector can become more productive since public spending cannot increase incrementally with increased student numbers.

Some ways by which additional productivity may be achieved were mentioned in the Programme for Action in Education such as the provision of evening degree courses and the rationalisation of existing courses. These matters will be dealt with more fully in a discussion document on catering for the demand for third level education which it is hoped to publish in the near future. It will be a matter then for all those involved in higher education to come together to consider how best the needs of our young people can be met by the institutions in the most economical way.

Our third level educational institutions have a major role to play in making our young people more innovative. They must be encouraged to look beyond the traditional and to exercise entrepreneurial initiative for themselves. Skilled graduates can start businesses involving new products and processes particularly in the developing areas of information technology, food and biotechnology and microelectronics. These areas have a potential for rapid growth and development which can generate employment. Enterprise education will have to become a more prominent feature in the curricula of our higher education institutions so that our young people can be helped to develop new attitudes which will encourage them and equip them with the skills necessary to meet the challenge of creating employment in today's society.

There is already, to their mutual benefit, considerable co-operation between industry and third level institutions and I am anxious that this would continue and expand. Deputies will be interested to learn that a programme for such co-operation on a European scale, entitled COMETT, was formally adopted and allocated a budget at a meeting earlier this week of Ministers for Education. Because of the considerable advances made in this area nationally, each of our university colleges and NIHEs has an industry-linked programme or programmes. I am confident that our colleges and institutes and industry will be able to contribute significantly to this new European development. It is particularly pleasing to record that the initiative to the COMETT programme came from my predecessor, Deputy Gemma Hussey, when she held the presidency and the rapid implementation owes much to the work of Commissioner Sutherland when his portfolio included educational affairs.

Deputies will be also interested to know that at the same council meeting the Erasmus programme was significantly advanced in that the Commission was instructed to prepare for presentation to the December council a scheme for the organisation and implementation of Erasmus. Some of us were disappointed that Erasmus was not formally adopted. Perhaps I should say that this programme envisages student mobility across Europe and reciprocal recognition of course years and course modules and when in place will be of great significance in intergrating university level education throughout the Community achieving the practical aim of enabling large numbers of students to study in other parts of their Continent.

The period since this Government took office has seen many developments and initiatives in the field of education. Indeed, some of the decisions already taken and the initiatives set in train will set the pattern for the education system into the next century. As a member of the Government I was fully appreciative of the work being done by my predecessor, Deputy Gemma Hussey. It is only since becoming Minister for Education, however, that the full complexity of our education system today, of the problems with which it is faced and of the issues which need to be tackled, have come home to me. I look forward, with the help of my colleagues Deputy Enda Kenny and Deputy Seán Barrett as Ministers of State, and in consultation with all the other interests involved in education, to building on the achievements of the past three years.

The coming school year will see the introduction of the first of the new programmes arising from the Government decisions about the ages for learning. Approval has been granted for transition year programmes submitted by 95 schools. It is hoped that the other schools who applied will develop their programmes further and apply again for later years. It was always made clear that the introduction of these programmes would be on a phased basis, subject to monitoring by my Department. Priority has been given this year to those schools who already had transition year programmes or who had practical experience of curriculum development. In some of the cases turned down for 1986 it has been felt that the programmes would benefit from more careful preparation and development before they could be introduced. In others, schools applied for both the transition year and the vocational preparation — training programme. Some schools were ineligible as they have had a four year junior cycle to date and would be offering a seven year programme if they were to introduce the transition year at this stage.

It is not anticipated that additional costs will arise this year because of the introduction of transition years. The pupils in question would otherwise have been enrolling in the leaving certificate cycle and thus do not count as additional to the overall stock of pupils in second level schools. Additional costs with respect to such pupils will not arise until they reach their third year in the senior cycle, that is, in September 1988.

We have made an important start in putting adult education onto a firm foundation. While much has been achieved over the years by vocational education committees in particular, more recently by community and comprehensive schools, and with major input from voluntary bodies its development suffered from a lack of overall national policy and commitment.

The report of the Adult Education Commission entitled Lifelong Learning was received by my predecessor in May 1984. In response to one of the major recommendations of the Commission, adult education boards have now been established on an ad hoc basis throughout the country under the aegis of vocational education committees. The national plan Building on Reality committed up to £1 million for adult education by 1987 directed primarily towards the provision of courses to overcome illiteracy and towards the development of community education. The amount allocated for 1986 is £350,000. Since 1984 a grant has been paid each year to the National Adult Literacy Agency and this stands at £41,500 in 1986.

I am pleased that very recently my Department have issued discussion papers on the subjects of adult literacy and community education. I am confident that these will stimulate debate and help us to set goals and priorities for future work in these areas. I was also pleased to learn that AONTAS, the National Association for Adult Education, is bringing out a report on priority areas in adult education.

We have, even now, a formidable array of resources available and ready to be tapped in the many schools and colleges throughout the country whose staffs are becoming increasingly aware of needs and opportunities. Already the universities and the NCEA are moving into the field of formal qualification. New means, including distance education, are becoming increasingly available for those who care to use them.

The provision of funds for education would serve no purpose without the service of teachers in the schools. Happily the recent teachers' pay dispute, which if continued would have seriously disrupted the education services at primary and post primary levels, has been resolved on the acceptance by the teacher unions of proposals put to them on 9 May 1986 by the Government, following negotiation with representatives of the unions.

I want to place on record my appreciation of the constructive attitude adopted by the representatives of the teacher unions in the course of the negotiation of the settlement proposals and I look forward to working in harmony with the teachers in the interests of the education, and preparation for working life, of all our young people.

The Green Paper Partners in Education: Serving Community Needs was published last November with the intention that it would generate considered discussion and debate on the issues raised in it. While the Green Paper was published by my predecessor, it is a Government document and was issued following lengthy consideration at Government level. Following a series of preliminary meetings with the major interest groups to explain and clarify the Green Paper before Christmas last, written submissions were invited from all interested parties or individuals.

A large number of submissions have been received — many more than we had anticipated. Indeed, submissions are still coming in. I have been very impressed by the deep interest clearly shown by so many in regard to educational matters and the time and commitment they have given to considering the issues raised in the Green Paper. We have had quite a varied response — from major objection on the one hand to general acceptance on the other. Detailed discussions with the major groups in regard to their submissions are now almost complete. I will be considering the outcome in depth with a view to deciding on the next steps to be taken.

Education is one of the most complex areas of Government responsibility. There must be few people in Ireland who are not touched in one way or another, either directly or indirectly, by what happens within the very wide range of educational activities. I am conscious of the responsibility this places on me as Minister. Time could not allow me to do more than to comment selectively today on some of the issues that are current. An overview of the Government's intentions with regard to education can be seen in the Programme for Action 1984-1987. The most recent progress report on the implementation of this programme was published shortly after I assumed office as Minister in this area. We will proceed to complete the programme as outlined. In all our activities we work together with the various interest groups, in particular with teachers, managers, and parents. Already the Parents' Council, to whom we have made a special grant this year of £50,000, have been establishing themselves as one of the key groups to be consulted on issues that arise.

We have a healthy education system. Within the restricted resources available to us we are managing to maintain the high standards for which Irish education is well known. This is being achieved, and will continue to be achieved because of the enormous commitment and dedication of so many people. I commend the Estimates to the House.

I am pleased to contribute today on the Estimates for the Department of Education which have been presented by the Minister. It is nice to know Erasmus is going to walk again, this time right throughout Europe under a new guise. I cannot resist that. I did not know that was what the scheme was called. When I think about it, it is highly suitable and very apt. I wish it well. It is only in its infant stages but hopefully it will have very far-reaching effects. It will increase the idea of mobility among young people that they can move away, educated, from their own country ready to earn their living and absorb the influences and work ethics of other countries. They can then come back and contribute to their own country. It is an aspect of education which interests me greatly.

An occasion like this allows the Minister to account for the spending of money, the progress in the year, and the hopes for the future. It is our job on this side of the House to show where money has not been spent, where no progress has been made and where we hope it will be made in the year ahead. That is the format for the Estimates and the business of the House. No matter what modifications or improvements proposed for the business of the House, the formality of the occasion is very fitting. It allows for scrutiny of the figures. In matters such as education it also allows for the measures which have been taken or are hoped to be taken to be scrutinised vigorously. It also allows for philosophical discussion on the aims and objectives of education.

A review of the detailed figures available for expenditure on education reveals, despite what the Minister has said, that capital programmes at all levels of education have been affected by Government policy resulting in major cut-backs in the educational capital programmes. I will be focusing on these cut-backs in capital expenditure in education despite the fact that there have been many worthwhile and innovative experiments and objectives. However, the cut-backs in capital expenditure have had major effects particularly in the offspin in employment. Badly affected has been capital expenditure at primary level in the areas of building, equipping and furnishing of national schools. The Minister referred to the numbers going through primary schools. At some point soon they will progress to second level. The fact still remains that the Government Estimate for 1986 of capital expenditure in primary schools at £28.2 million represents a cut-back of a staggering 17 per cent on the expenditure incurred in this area during 1985. The provision of loans and grants to training college students is clearly being abandoned, as we know, or phased out. The 1986 Estimate of £493,000 represents a reduction of up to 40 per cent on the 1985 turnout.

As we are dealing with capital expenditure in primary schools, I propose to go through education in all its spheres even though I have always said we should view education as a whole rather than in compartments. For the purposes of running education, it is done in a compartmentalised way. Therefore, one deals with it like that. I am sure Deputies on all sides of the House would share the feelings which we have expressed from time to time regarding the position of what are termed disadvantaged pupils in primary schools. Everyone would share the philosophical view that the money should go, first of all, to the disadvantaged and in particular the disadvantaged in primary schools because there it all begins. When I talk of disadvantaged in global terms, I do not mean pupils who come from a particular stratum of society, even though that is part of it. I also mean disadvantaged in terms of their learning abilities and in terms of impairment be it of a physical or mental nature. The Minister made reference to various sums which have been allocated, and which have been increasing over the past few years, to the special fund for the disadvantaged, particularly in areas where it was deemed to be necessary.

I have to point out and put on the record of the House that this positive intervention was adopted by Deputy Wilson when he was Minister for Education. I was not in national politics at the time but I was in teaching. I was very interested in the concept whereby particular primary schools got a favourable pupil-teacher ratio. That was done as a deliberate policy in order to see, while it could never be eliminated, whether the element of disadvantaged could be dealt with to the advantage of the pupil. That was proceeding quite well and in a very positive way. Following cutbacks which were initiated shortly after the Government and the previous Minister came into office, those hopeful advances were stopped. It is only now the input is beginning to be made again into these schools.

The point I am making is that in the intervening few years there has been a diminution in the work done in this area. It is essential that a pupil be got at the early stages of primary school, when he or she is aged five, six, seven or eight, when the seed for growth exists, be it even of limited growth potential. Every child is entitled to have his or her growth potential explored and brought to fruition. This Government have fallen down badly with regard to aid to disadvantaged pupils. The Minister announced an increase of £0.25 million in the fund for special assistance to primary schools in disadvantaged areas, bringing the total to £0.75 million. But while that amount has increased, so has the problem, which means that the money spread among the number of pupils needing aid is very small.

This is particularly true of the psychological services, the educational psychological services in general, obtaining in schools. I have spoken about this matter in public before. I put down a recent parliamentary question in this regard. The Programme for Action in Education 1984-87 made much of the fact that there should be greater liaison between the psychological services and the educational psychologists available. This would mean that both those services would work in close co-operation helping pupils whom teachers discerned as having problems, whether of a behavioural or learning nature. This would mean also that a pupil would not have to be removed from his or her school, brought to a health board clinic or an out-patients department of a hospital, sometimes involving quite a journey in rural areas. At present, a pupil having been assessed professionally, there is no interlinked feedback to the school services. If there is a feedback often it is a protracted one during which time the child's problem may have become more acute or that aspect of the problem left unattended. There is not a continuity in care in the psychological services, particularly at primary level.

There is no point in our endeavouring to gloss over the fact. These are problems which give rise later in the pupil's life to alienation and a very early frightening drop-out rate of young people. These are the young people who present problems in society necessitating remedial centres, prisons, custodial centres and all of the other punitive measures which have to be invoked, leading to a continuous cycle which may have commenced with an element of deprivation in a pupil's earlier years at primary school. I might add that this type of deprivation is not a financial one only. Very often it arises through emotional deprivation at home, through broken homes, housing problems, in many instances lack of job opportunities, with fathers and mothers now perhaps into a second generation of non-working parents. In its own way this breeds discontent and hostility to authority or to the forces of stability in society, be they at school or in society in general.

The thrust of all of us interested and involved in education — must be spread throughout the entire educational system. At present we fail greatly at primary level. We cannot contend that we have a good educational system when it continues to allow out of the primary school system alienated, emotionally disturbed, or pupils with behavioural problems, or pupils who cannot read or write. I am alarmed at what appears to be an increase in the rate of illiteracy among young people. I am aware of a survey carried out by AnCO, whose findings will shortly be published, showing the rate of illiteracy and lack of numeracy among young people who leave primary schools early. I remember in the course of a debate on school transport or some such subject in the House about two and a half years ago, when a colleague of mine, Deputy H. Byrne, gave an alarming statistic of illiteracy among pupils leaving primary school going into post-primary. I remember saying to the Deputy afterwards: "I do not think that was quite a true statistic"— he had been given the figure by somebody — but it appears to me now that this statistic will be verified very shortly. We must deal with the problem of why some young people are leaving primary schools despite advanced teaching methods, our having kept up-to-date with new methods of teaching. Despite all of those advantages pupils are still leaving primary school without the basic skills of reading and writing.

I note with interest the submission by the Curriculum and Examinations Board with regard to the primary school sector. They felt that perhaps there should be a revision to a more formalised structure of primary schooling at fifth and sixth classes. That is something about which I have been talking for some years. At an Ard Fheis three years ago I made a speech on the 3Rs. I was told I was being too simplistic, that most pupils now knew that. Yet last year a university professor carried out a survey showing the lack of good English of composition, of skills in that area among entrants to university and third-level education generally which was really alarming.

The curriculum nua is no longer new, it has been new for the past 13 or 14 years. That curriculum was enormously innovative and was of much benefit to children generally. It removed an element of apprehension among pupils going to school because, since its initiation, classes have been conducted in informal, relaxed surroundings, using modern teaching methods involving toing and froing between teachers and pupils. All of that gave pupils insight into themselves as people, how the world ticked, into the interaction between various subjects; it was no longer a case of one studying Irish, English, history and geography. They were all interlinked. Pupils became more aware of their environment and of many other matters that might not have penetrated a young person's mind previously. All of this was achieved in an informal learning way. That must have contributed to a great openess of mind among young people.

That being said, all curricula are in need of revision. I know there is a formal review in train of the primary school curriculum. As a result of that review I hope there will be a somewhat more formal element at fifth and sixth classes in primary schools, but not leading to a primary school certificate at sixth class. I do not believe that is necessary — it served its purpose while it obtained — but I would not wish to see its resumption. However, I should like to see more emphasis laid on the 3Rs in the latter years of the primary school cycle, ensuring that those pupils with the ability master those basic skills. The primary school system should ensure that pupils leave the primary school with those skills, fitting them to proceed to the post-primary level. If the intervention does not take place then it will be much too late when pupils get into the eight-subjects-a-day routine, with 40 minutes per subject, bells clanging frequently, involving a new environment for study much more disciplined and formal.

I think the Minister did say that there would be an additional number of remedial teachers appointed in the course of this year, which is to be welcomed, but their number remains so small in relation to the size of the problem. Perhaps a means could be devised by which their skills and help could be spread more evenly across the spectrum of pupils needing such special tuition. Perhaps the regular teacher in the classroom could act as a sort of intermediary teacher of remedial skills.

I was never very much in favour of the idea of removing five or six pupils from a class and sending them to another teacher in a special classroom for remedial teaching. I suppose the system works in some ways, but I always felt that it singled out certain pupils in such a way that the other boys and girls were aware that they were receiving special teaching. This isolated these pupils to some extent and when they returned to their own class they found they had missed out on what was going on there. Perhaps more use could be made of the obvious determination of teachers within their own classroom to deal with pupils who have some slight need of remedial teaching. Teachers could become, in effect, mediation remedial teachers. A pool of skills could be set up within each town or county and the professional skills of the remedial teacher could be diffused out to the ordinary teacher, with ongoing visits and assessments by the remedial teacher within that area. This would mean that his or her skills would be more readily absorbed by a school and by the pupils in need of such skilled teaching. The Minister might refer to this matter when replying.

If we do not tackle this problem we will continue to have pupils leaving primary and secondary schools who will lack the basic skills. The rate of illiteracy is quite staggering. There should not now be a need for a huge input at adult level for the dissemination of literacy skills. The schools must have the necessary resources to do the job. We cannot live any longer with this staggering rate of illiteracy since we view ourselves as a modern country with a very advanced educational system. Yet there is no doubt that we have this problem.

The Minister spoke about the special committee set up to look at the whole question of school transport. The Government will take decisions on their report. I wonder whether we will have the opportunity to ask the questions on this matter at the end of the debate.

I understand a study has been made and that a pilot scheme for school transport is envisaged in County Laois and County Clare. I would ask the Minister to give an account of the study and to say whether there are likely to be changes in the system in the autumn. Various interests are anxious to know quite soon about this matter.

The Minister spoke about computerisation. I welcome this development, particularly in relation to the examination results. This means that the staff of the Department of Education in Athlone will not be moved and will not be diminished in numbers at the central headquarters for the examinations.

I will now deal with second level education, again emphasising the natural wish to formalise the fifth and sixth standard in primary schools. There have been great advances and new developments at post-primary level during the past nine or ten years. The Minister mentioned the work experience programmes in vocational schools and the vocational preparation and training programmes. I know the workings of these schemes at quite close quarters through our own VEC. All of them have given great aid to pupils and have opened up areas of life of which they would not have dreamed. The stigma has been taken away from working with one's hands in factories or on farms.

I am alarmed at the Minister's clear hint with regard to our share of the European Social Fund, although I accept that he is right to give us a warning. Money from this source is used to fund VEC schools and VEC third level colleges and also in secondary schools which are opting for the VPTP programmes. Clearly some countries which have entered the Community would be deemed more disadvantaged than Ireland and they will be looking for their share of that cake. We should be preparing for that eventuality. I have spoken several times recently about the need to review the type of courses to which the ESF money is directed in VEC third level colleges. In the period when the money is still relatively flush we should be looking at the type of courses which would best benefit from funding. If the funding tapered or faltered in any way we would then be on stream with the high priority courses on which emphasis should be laid. Of course, I would urge the Minister to fight our corner in Europe for a continuation of the existing funding and I am sure he will do so. There is a case to be made that we came rather late into the technology area and other countries which are also receiving funding should by now be firmly on their feet and able to cope without such a slice of the cake. We still need ours very badly, particularly in view of our high rate of unemployment.

The Minister also referred to the transition year at post-primary level. I have been bitterly disappointed in the progress to date of the implementation of this idea. It was announced with great fanfare prior to the local elections last year and people thought that there would instantly be hundreds of extra teachers. When one reads the small print it became clear that it would be 1991 before the magical numbers of teachers would be employed. The idea of the transition year was a good one. Guidelines were issued to schools as to how the transition year should be structured and many schools took up the idea with great gusto. Perhaps it was unfortunate that this coincided with a period of tension in schools during which attention was understandably focussed on other issues.

The Department failed lamentably in their plan to implement this transitional year. I understood extra resources would be provided for that. I accept that initially it will not be necessary to provide an extra class but it will be necessary to appoint a teacher with special responsibility for the implementation of that programme in each school. That teacher will have to prepare a programme and decide on the subjects to be studied in that year. Presumably, the course will not cover the usual subjects only and will be more innovative. Money will have to be provided to train teachers involved in the transition year. I am disappointed at the lack of commitment by the Government to implement the transition year in all schools. I was disappointed to hear the Minister say that a small number of schools had been selected for the course. Why is it that the Government did not announce criteria earlier in the year? It is a bit late, at the end of the school year, to say to schools that schools should have been pursuing a certain line when clear guidelines were not issued by the Department.

When the scheme was announced a number of school principals were enthusiastic about the idea but they are now of the opinion that, with the exception of a few schools, it will not be possible to pursue the course in the next school year. The Government should prepare a programme and provide the resources so that all schools still anxious to participate in the scheme will be able to do so from September. It is not enough for the Minister to say that resources will not be needed. Any innovation in business or in schools needs adequate resources.

I should like to compliment the Curriculum and Examinations Board on their diligence since their appointment. I understood that when the report of that board was produced Minister Hussey expected legislation to implement its recommendations to be introduced in January last. I am not suggesting that the Department should rush the legislation, but I hope it will be ready for the autumn session. That legislation will require careful scrutiny because it represents a very fundamental shift in our education system. Parents, teachers and pupils will be asked to change their attitudes to the school curriculum and the examination system. The various committees that have considered the syllabus down the years have been very innovative, particularly the committee that dealt with the teaching of history. An element of assessment has been in operation for some time in regard to the history and now we have the aural and oral assessments in languages.

The assessments have been helpful in taking away the emphasis on written work. The element of assessment will vary for each subject because some subjects lend themselves more to a quality of assessment than others. Such assessments will have huge implications for the teaching profession. Young people will benefit by the removal of an element of stress because they will be aware that work done during the year will get recognition before they sit their written tests. I do not think the formal examination system will be eliminated because, irrespective of the trauma or tensions involved for students, the written examinations represent a test of the individual's ability to cope. However, it is important that projects and other work carried on during the year are recognised. I hope that any amendments we may table to that legislation will be accepted by the Minister as an effort to improve the provisions in the Bill. We will have to consider that legislation carefully because it will have huge implications for education in the future.

It is interesting to note when one visits schools that students are anxious to know about the changes that are to take place. Following the report of the board the newspapers carried headlines to the effect that there would not be intermediate or leaving certificate examinations, but that is not correct. Those examinations will be with us for a long time and I think people realise now that the changes will be a sober process but ones that will satisfy all those involved in education. I hope the legislation will be introduced before we leave our position in the House and that I will have the honour, in some capacity, of dealing with it.

I note that Mr. Kenneth Baker, who succeeded Sir Keith Joseph as Education Minister in Britain got an extra £20 million for courses this year. Deputy Kelly will be quick to tell me that we should not ape Britain, but in this respect we should and give the Curriculum and Examinations Board the resources it needs to implement its recommendations. Teachers will now be involved in assessments and using new teaching techniques. The changing world demands that they adopt new techniques and teachers will have to make the adjustments. I have no doubt that they have the ability to do so but the Government must provide the resources.

The cutback at post-primary level in capital expenditure is causing concern. The 1985 Estimate for building and capital expenditure at post primary level was £48 million but the actual expenditure amounted to £43 million, a hidden cut-back of £5 million. It is clear that the overall capital expenditure may not increase at all for the remainder of the term of office of the Government. Capital expenditure on post-primary schools was greater in 1983 than it will be in 1986. For example, £15.5 million was spent in 1983 compared to a budget of £14.5 million for 1986. Similarly, expenditure on vocational schools has been curtailed with the outturn decreasing from £15.6 million in 1983 to £10.3 million in 1984 and £9.4 million in 1985. The 1986 Estimate of £13.5 million represents a decrease of about £2 million in 1983.

Another area badly affected by Government policy is specialist teacher training colleges. In 1984 the Estimate was £100,000, but none of it was spent. In 1985 the expenditure was £59,000 from an approved Estimate of £150,000. The 1986 Estimate is £100,000. It is another matter how much of this budget will be spent. More cutbacks are noticeable in other areas. The allocation for the provision and development of special schools has been cut. The 1986 Estimate for the maintenance of pupils at such schools has dropped from £527,000 in 1985 to £107,000 in 1986.

The reduction in capital investment in primary and post-primary schools is reflected mainly at the higher level. The Minister referred to a carry-on Vote, but capital grants for expenditure on furniture and equipment will remain at precisely the same level in 1986 as last year. The capital grant for UCD, for example, will be £4.2 million in 1986 compared to £5.4 million last year. NIHE, Dublin, has fared equally badly despite the promises of new colleges. There is a reduction of almost £2 million in the 1986 budget. Capital expenditure at third level has been seriously cut back under this Government.

I heard with approval the Minister's reference to the teaching of modern languages and the need for it in post-primary schools. That is grand talk, but more schools are not taking up subjects like German, Italian and Spanish because of lack of funds for teachers. Only 4 per cent of our pupils take up German at leaving certificate level. It is now the language of Europe for business purposes. There has not been an increase in the take up of modern languages such as German because of the cutback in teachers at post-primary level and this means that German and other necessary modern languages have had to be shelved.

When we began to cut back on teachers in 1983, principals were faced with the fact that they had to give their pupils the essential subjects. Teachers were not replaced after death or retirement and this meant teachers had to concentrate on the essential subjects. Modern languages are now demanded in business circles and their teaching has become a total necessity. We hear industrialists constantly saying that because our pupils do not learn German we are deprived in the market places of Europe.

I agree entirely with the Deputy.

I am sorry I misunderstood the Deputy. I am so used to interruptions of the other kind that I am happy when I get support. I hope the Minister will tell me if there could be some sort of intervention fund in post-primary schools to facilitate the teaching of modern languages, like the fund for disadvantaged areas. More and more there will be increased mobility of the peoples of Europe, not just at professional level but at all levels of work, including people with basic skills. Our young people are very good in that respect. Birth rates in other countries show that in Germany, Holland and Belgium they will need people with particular skills. There will be much more mobility among the peoples, not just young people. There will be to-ing and fro-ing throughout Europe and those of our people who work in Europe will be coming back with resultant extra skills and knowledge.

A much broader view must be taken instead of the narrow one that if we employ more teachers it will mean more money. We must think of the input special teaching will have for our economic growth. We must not look at education as a system whereby numbers of pupils go through schools, come out with certificates, and it is on to the next business. Education never should have been like that. The disadvantaged must be helped and if we do not do it we cannot hold our heads high. The illiteracy problem, which is growing, must be tackled. In primary schools we have had some welcome improvements like curricular development and better subject choice.

Pupils must not leave school thinking the world owes them a living. They must be given the opportunity of further education after school so that life after school can be a process of work and education. Work patterns have changed. There was a time when there was a certainty of getting a job after school, starting at 9 o'clock and finishing at 5 o'clock, going home to the garden and the wife or husband and the 4.8 children. That has changed completely.

I will refer briefly to the Irish language. The figures for publications in Irish show a definite lack of commitment by the Department. In 1985 the Estimate for expenditure here was £477,000 and in 1986 it has been reduced to £402,000 for publications in Irish. Expenditure on grants to colleges providing courses in Irish has been slashed. In 1984 it was £350,000 of which only £229,000 was spent. In 1986 the figure is £310,000. Clearly, the commitment of the Government towards the preservation of the Irish language through education and by way of Irish publications is questionable. I had about 45 more points to make but my time has run out. I would have referred to third level education in particular and the need for planning and programming our resources towards the huge number of young people who are now demanding places in third level education. That will cause a serious problem in the coming decade. I look forward to the publication of the promised document on third level services.

I was very glad to hear Deputy O'Rourke in the course of her interesting speech devote a good deal of her limited time to the teaching of foreign languages. I was glad the Minister referred to it. This is a hobbyhorse of mine which I trot out every year during this debate and I make no excuse for doing so again this year. Not a great deal seems to happen between these annual debates. It is a very long time since I first began to draw attention to one matter Deputy O'Rourke referred to — the pitiful number of second level students learning German. That proportion has not changed in the past ten years. I should like to quote from a recent bulletin of the Confederation of Irish Industry which was issued on 8 April last. It is pointed out that Germany is an exceptionally important export market for Irish industry. It has become Irish industry's second largest customer. The bulletin states:

If Ireland could achieve the same penetration of the German market as it currently has of the British market this would result in an increase of about 25 per cent in industrial output and could create up to 25,000 additional jobs in manufacturing industries.

Faced with that crude fact, how can the Department in charge of education tolerate a situation in which only 4 per cent of second level students are studying German as against 61 per cent studying French. I am not decrying the teaching of French — far from it. However, the importance of France to the Irish economy in terms of trade and exports is only about four-fifths that of Germany. The disproportion there is quite gross. Moreover, German investment stands in relation to French investment in a ratio very much more than 5:4 and German tourism here has a similar disproportion in its favour as against French tourism.

I am in no way trying to decry the teaching of French, which is a well established and important part of our curriculum, but I urge the Minister to take this problem by the throat and settle it once and for all. I am thoroughly tired of hearing each year in this House the perfunctory few words about foreign language teaching but nothing ever seems to happen. Although CII in their anxiety to promote an interest in German almost make it appear to be the case, it is not the case that this is the only problem on the language front. There are immense markets opening up in the world with teeming, exploding populations — not falling populations as in the case of Germany — and with exploding purchasing power, particularly in the Far East. In China they cannot even count the millions of inhabitants. The astronomical population of that country will have trebled their individual purchasing power by the end of the century, but as far as I know not one student in this country is learning Chinese. There are a few people tucked away in some rookery in Trinity or in UCD learning oriental languages but they are doing that more for artistic, literary or purely cultural reasons than for economic reasons. I hope I do not need to tell anyone I do not decry that, but we need to get to grips with the problems that face Irish industry, and particularly when we have a huge unemployed population, with neither side in this House having the faintest clue of how to find jobs for them.

I do not want to get into a political discussion about this. Everyone here knows that if the sides were to change, as Deputy O'Rourke delicately suggested they might sooner or later, the opposite side of the House would be just as much stuck with a six figure unemployment rate as we would. No doubt throwing money at the problem for a few years might knock a few thousand off the unemployment lists, as Dr. O'Donoghue did in 1977 and 1978, but it leads to a worse problem later on. No one knows how to solve this problem in the short term but there is one way to solve it, namely, by increasing Irish products, exports and markets. However, it cannot be done by going around the world and expecting everyone else to learn English in order to buy our products. We are not serious about the problem if we imagine that will happen.

I wish to make a concrete suggestion, namely, that the discussions mentioned by the Minister as taking place in an informal committee in regard to the future of Carysfort College should be brought to a conclusion quickly by a firm decision to create on the Carysfort campus — which I agree should not be closed or wound down — an institute for the teaching of foreign languages. I do not mean teaching those languages purely in the literary or cultural sense but with an eye to providing us with a corps of people capable of promoting Irish industry and goods abroad.

I realise that is not what Cardinal Newman meant by education and it was not what I was brought up to believe was the point of education. At one time I would have been horrified to hear myself speak like this. I was brought up to think of education as essentially an egghead pursuit at all levels and particularly at the level after 18 years of age. That kind of thinking is a luxury I have dropped. I suppose I have a job that could be regarded as a luxury job — teaching jurisprudence and Roman law to students, which if they had their way few of whom would opt to learn. I am not trying to disparage the source from which I hold my job but we need to get rid of the idea that the only national importance of education is what I might call the Newman importance of developing and unfolding the human personality. Of course that has to be done but I cannot believe that is not possible while, at the same time, providing the country with the level of training in linguistic skills that it needs.

I would envisage Carysfort as a place, without too much insistence on entry requirements, in which intensive and effective training would be provided in the kind of modern languages we need. In that category I include oriental languages, Arabic, Japanese and Chinese. There may be other languages such as Malay that will be of greater importance later on or are already of importance in this context. It is too late in the day for us to think such an idea outlandish. We must do it now. The closing down of teacher training at Carysfort and the freeing of that fine campus, fine administrative staff and tradition, give the Minister and his Department a first-class opportunity to settle this problem. Then, when he comes here next year with his Estimate — as I hope he will — the problem will have been dealt with and will no longer be the subject of pious, if sincere, expressions of intention, with references to informal committees and so on.

The Department might be shaken out of their Newman-induced attitudes in yet another respect. This country might consider looking at education as an export commodity. We might regard even the Carysfort campus as the place on which to site the teaching of English in the same intensive way for foreigners. There are already private sector colleges in Dublin that do this kind of thing and I do not want to ruin them, overshadow them or offer unfair competition to them. If possible, I would be anxious to integrate them or associate them with such an effort. I have no doubt there is an opening here for the sale of instruction in English and, consequently, there are some jobs for teachers who may be unemployed or under-employed. That is something that could be done in the area of languages but it is not the only sector in which it might be done.

The College of Surgeons, less than a quarter of a mile away, provides at no cost to the State medical training at its full economic cost to students, the majority of who come from outside these shores. This is an immensely important asset for us. A student leaving the College of Surgeons to practise medicine abroad carries with him an affection for this country, a knowledge of and an interest in it for the rest of his life. That is something that is impalpable but extremely valuable. Also, for the six years or so while those students live here they are like permanent tourists. They bring money into the country and they spend it. I am putting it now at its lowest and I would be ashamed to speak like this if I were addressing a solemn meeting in the College of Surgeons. Quite rightly, they have a higher perception of their own function than merely as a tourist induction engine but they are at least that and it costs the State absolutely nothing.

There are other areas in which that could be done also and my own subject, law, is one of them. I could imagine a college or an institution that might be sited in or near the Kings Inns — if we could find somewhere else to put the Registry of Deeds — that would teach basic common law for people from developing countries, from the area of the former British Empire where common law is the essence of their system. That could be done here and it would have the same effect, with no cost to the State, as has the practice of the College of Surgeons or as the selling of language skills would have. At no cost to the State, we would have a valuable and effective export asset that would tend to generate goodwill. The Minister might do worse than retain in the Department even on a temporary basis, a business consultant to advise him on the potential of education as an export commodity. I mean that in the sense I have described, by trying to induce people to receive education in areas such as language teaching, medicine, law and so so. Like Deputy O'Rourke, I, too, have 45 things to talk about but I do not have to shelve as much of my speech as she did. I, too, would like to spend more time on all these things, but I must move on.

I was very glad to hear the Minister mention enterprise education and the Erasmus scheme. When the bottom line is drawn on the operation of our education system we must admit it produces an unsatisfactroy result in terms of the orientation of students leaving second-level training. I have spoken here before about the incredible situation when nearly 14,000 school leavers applied for six post office clerkships in 1982. That first came to notice because of the expenditure of public money involved in subjecting 14,000 students to examination when only six jobs were being provided. What I have in mind here is that almost one quarter of school leavers that year had the ambition of a white collar public service job. The same thing happened this year when roughly 10,000 people applied for 150 clerical jobs in Aer Lingus.

I do not decry white collar jobs, far from it, I have a white collar job myself and I would not know what to do if I was asked to do any other sort of job — to dig I am unable and to beg I am ashamed. These are very big sections of our school leavers seeking jobs which are State dependent and which are not wealth creating. For that reason if for no other, the Minister's reference to enterprise education and to Erasmus is very important. He also mentioned mobility, as did Deputy O'Rourke, which is very important too. She is not the first person on that side who mentioned this theme. Her colleague, Deputy O'Kennedy, mentioned it about a year ago and when I asked him if that meant we were at last getting away from the fetish about emigration he simply beat a retreat and said I had taken him up wrongly. We must get away from the fetish about emigration. What is mobility but emigration? I do not mean permanent Queenstown wake emigration but temporary emigration, where it would be left to the individual concerned to decide whether to come back. That attitude, which I am glad to see is beginning to dawn on the Opposition, is beginning to take root elsewhere.

I was very glad to have the opportunity of speaking in the Irish College in Louvain last month which, although its objectives have not yet been crystallised completely, definitely represents an effort to place an Irish foot on the European mainland with the resultant benefit in training, skills and linguistic accomplishments for the people who go there, and resulting also in access to the European markets I have been talking about. It is an extremely fine and interesting development and I would urge anyone who finds himself in the neighbourhood of the Belgian capital to see it for himself. This college has not been given sufficient publicity but it is something of which we can be proud. Although State involvement has been substantial and welcome in the shape of AnCO participation, the State has not totally paid for it and there has been a very heavy contribution from private sources, which is as it should be.

In areas where there is not a very heavy reliance on fixed assets like laboratories, the Minister should explore the possibilities of running third level education in shifts. I say that because the kind of third level education which depends essentially on blackboard, chalk and a library takes up little more than six months of the year — for example, the arts faculties in UCC or UCG. I do not minimise the problems of having to recruit extra staff, increased wear and tear and overheads on the library facilities; but I observe that these colleges are half empty for a very substantial proportion of the year, occupied, if at all, by research students or by people attending summer schools. I wonder if it would be possible to relieve pressure on the State and to give an opportunity to people clamouring for third level places if we could run a double shift each year — in other words, rearrange the semesters in such a way that each year we got two years through an arts faculty or certain sections of an art faculty. The law faculty might not lend itself to this because it is tied in with professional bodies, but there are departments in arts and commerce where that might be possible and where the colossal State investment represented by the university buildings might be put to better use for the same or very little extra money.

I appeal to the Minister in regard to the provision of school premises, and to the repair and maintenance of school premises, to be as generous as he can where the minority communities are concerned. It is not simply because many of my constituents are of a minority persuasion that I raised this point; it is because of that fact that I am conscious of this problem. The minority persuasions have sadly dwindled away. It is an enrichment to any area to have people of more than one tradition in it, and sadly, where minority Protestant communities have fallen below viability and reproduction level, they have simply tended to die out. In large areas of the countryside there are sad sights of Protestant churches overgrown with ivy and the windows blown in. In some of the Dublin suburbs, and this is quite marked in my constituency, that tendency has happily been reversed. In some suburbs there is a ballooning of minority populations and the State would be doing what a republic should do if it were to lean over backwards and show the maximum possible generosity towards those communities to help them stay together and to develop growth which is beginning to show itself. That is in no way intended as a reproach, I know the Minister has been very sympathetic towards them and I believe that if Deputy O'Rourke ever found herself on this side of the House she would be sympathetic too. The State should show a shade extra generosity towards communities whose members are small and who, for that reason, are vulnerable.

Tugann an díospóireacht seo ar na Meastacháin seans dúinn féachaint ar obair na Roinne agus ar an tslí a bhfuil úsáid á baint as an méid airgid atá á chaitheamh againn ar an gcóras oideachais. Tá suim ollmhór airgid i gceist, breis agus £1,000 milliún punt agus tá sé de dhualgas orainne anseo i nDáil Éireann a chinntiú go bhfuil an caiteachas airgid déanta go críonna agus go tíosach. Is cinnte go bhfuil freastal á dhéanamh ar phríomh-dhualgais na Roinne ach is oth liom a rá go bhfuil neamart á dhéanamh ar mhóran de ghnéithe tábhachtacha oideachais.

In ainneoin an líon múinteoirí atá gan fhostaíocht níl aon bhreis airgid gur fiú trácht air á chur ar fáil do oideachas feabhais agus níl aon fheabhas á dhéanamh ar choibhneas múinteoirí agus daltaí. Tá forbairtí inmholta ar siúl faoi láthair sa chóras oideachais agus is trua nach bhfuil breis airgid ar fáil le dlús a chur leo. Tá mé ag smaoineamh go háirithe ar fhorbairt phearsanta na mac léinn agus ar an oideachas soisialta. Tá sé riachtanach go gcuirfí breis oiliúna ar fáil do mhúinteoirí le cur ar a gcumas na cláracha nua a theagasc. Tá a lán módhanna muinteóireachta nua i réim sa ghné seo den oideachas agus má taimid le tairbhe a bhaint as a leitheid de chláracha oideachais caithfimid infheistiú a dhéanamh san oiliúint inseirbhíse. Is beag an mhaith moltaí agus treoir an Bhoird Curaclaim agus Scruduithe muna bhfuil airgead ar fáil leis na moltaí a chur i bhfeidhm.

Tá a fhios ag an saol mór go bhfuil géarghá le hoideachas san nua theicneolaíocht, go háirithe ríomhairí agus cumarsáid. Ach is trua liom nach bhfuil aon chuma ar na Meastacháin seo go bhfuil infheistiú á dhéanamh sna gnéithe tábhachtacha seo den chóras oideachais.

This debate, like the month of January, provides us with an opportunity in education and educational affairs to look back on the year that has passed and to determine in the context of this House how it has helped to shape or otherwise the direction in which education is going and to look closely at the provisions made by the Department of Education for the coming year. One of the most regrettable features of the past year is that it was marked mainly, I am sad to say, by confrontation and public rancour. That is regrettable because it is not what education is mainly about. As a practitioner I have always understood that education is about consultation, discussion and meaningful and positive analysis of what is best for our young people and our country. I am sure that my colleague, our spokesperson on Education, will agree.

It is most regrettable that when we look back over the past year what comes to mind most is what nobody wants, the kind of acrimony that obtained between the Department and the teaching profession and in particular the Minister's predecessor. There was a sad, inexcusable debacle involving one of the proudest and best teacher training colleges in the country. Deputy Kelly has given his ideas and suggestions as to what should happen to that. Therefore, it was hardly a year in which the Department or the Minister's predecessor can take a great deal of pride. Education and the Department's role in the provision of education have never been so much in the area of public confrontation. This mentality, so alien and obstructive to educational development, needs to be rooted out quickly from the Department. I hope the present Minister will see to it that that is done.

Despite these regrettable trends, it is only fair to say that some developments have taken place, though perhaps more in a philosophical, theoretical sense than anything else. They relate to the Curriculum and Examinations Board whose deliberations have been welcomed by all sides in this House in relation to a number of areas. A number of proposals they have put forward and a number of documents they have published have shown how clearly, caringly and carefully they had analysed a number of the most important educational issues of the day. On all sides of the House we welcome some of the aspirations expressed in these documents. If implemented some of them would contribute significantly to reform in educational practice. Let me say however, not by way of detracting from these documents or the proposals contained therein, that one must feel the goodwill towards implementing proposals such as, for example, the transition year to which Deputy O'Rourke referred in detail in response to the Minister, has been eroded considerably by the alienation felt by teachers as a result of the unfortunate and protracted industrial relations dispute.

One of the great areas of concern in education, particularly at primary-level — although it applied in recent years at second-level — is the number of large classes in our schools. It is not acceptable that well over 55,000 of our children — some would say as many as 58,000 — should still be in classes of over 40 pupils. Indeed, we are informed reliably that many of those classes are in the middle or high forties. A further 350,000 to 360,000 children are in classes of over 30 pupils. I have said in this House that a fundamental weakness in the Programme for Action in Education: 1984-1987 was its failure to address this serious problem. It is still outstanding; it is still there.

I hope the Minister does not subscribe to the view of his predecessor whose extraordinary statement on one occasion was that smaller classes did not necessarily make for improvement of educational services. Since 1 September 1982 when the figure was first reduced for primary schools to 33 pupils with a pro rata reduction down the line there has been no improvement in this area. Anything we say about equality of educational opportunity or more innovation within the classroom — I am talking about the ordinary classroom — or the need for greater individualisation and attention to special needs is pointless unless this fundamental problem is tackled with the other programmes that have been brought forward such as the programme for the disadvantaged to which the Minister referred.

The fundamental problem in the general sense in education — I am far more familiar with it at primary level than at secondary level — is our class sizes. The present situation is not acceptable and does nothing to promote greater equality of opportunity or greater equalisation or, let us face it, greater realisation of the potential or our individual practitioners, the teachers. The implication in the Estimate before us this afternoon cannot allow us to look forward with any confidence to improvements over the coming year in the area.

Against all that background 7,000 qualified teachers — I know the Department will dispute that but information available seems to suggest that a large number of qualified primary teachers in whom the State has invested a great deal of money are walking the streets. These trained, skilled, unemployed people represent a real potential to make an input into this area and to contribute to a reduction in the size of our classes not alone in this city but throughout the country. It is curious that the first steps have not been taken to bring this expertise, this available workforce into the system in such a vital area.

The reforms proposed by the Curriculum and Examinations Board can be regarded in many respects as pie in the sky because of inadequate resources, given that there is no commitment in the Estimate here to investment down the line for the implementation of these proposals. I accept that there is an increase in the provision for the board as such, but given the lack of commitment to implementing some of these proposals and of financial allocation, many in education rightly or wrongly tend to see the proposals as pie in the sky. There is no provision for the introduction of minority subjects. The lack of resources for new technology subjects is effectively reducing the options for students. This problem has been highlighted recently by research done by Séamus Ó Buachalla in Trinity College who has established that discrimination exists against students who attended smaller schools, for example. The vast majority of schools in the western seaboard counties are categorised as small. Therefore such schools cannot provide the range of subjects that opens access for students to a considerable number of third level places. I am thinking here of science, engineering and the technology subjects.

The education provision at the moment is deficient in catering for the bright student who aspires to a third level course which has prescribed requirements in terms of subjects. It discriminates also against the weak student whose primary requirements are basic literacy and numeracy. The schools are exhorted frequently to cater for the special needs of pupils, but it is very difficult for schools and teachers to respond to that when the resources are so inadequate. My experience, and I am sure that of my colleagues on all sides of the House, is that schools around the country and in Dublin city are pleading perpetually for voluntary contributions towards making a special provision for some category of student.

The State proposes to provide for all children equally and to provide free education for all at first and second level. The reality is that the Department of Education pitches the educational provision for the student who has no special needs. In saying that I am not taking account of the small programmes in operation, but in general the Department are neglecting those who require basic functional skills and, at the other extreme, those who are very able but confined to a small school whose scope in terms of subject provision is determined not by its needs and the needs of its students but by a blunt, inflexible and altogether too restrictive pupil-teacher ratio. I regret that the provisions of the current Estimate do nothing to redress these two fundamental problems. I am also disappointed that there is no indication in the Estimates of an increased commitment to practical and technological subjects.

I know that the Minister referred to developments in Europe and spoke of his disappointment at the rate of progress in relation to a particular project in operation there. It appears on the domestic scene that there has been a reduction rather than an increase in our commitment to this area for the coming year. It must be obvious to all that the traditional academic secondary schools cannot look forward in the coming year to an increased provision of subjects such as woodwork, construction studies, engineering or science. This is most regrettable as it means that a large proportion of the school-going population are deprived of the exploitation and development of their natural aptitudes. It is also worth noting that the entrepreneurial possibilities of the nation are far more likely to manifest themselves in activities related to these subjects than in activities related to the more academic subjects.

The most blatant and serious neglect is in the area of in-service training for teachers. It is widely recognised that the whole thrust of pedagogical impetus has moved from the teaching of the cognitive to the teaching of the effective. It is now recognised that knowledge is not the only important facet of education. Attitude is important, as are the skills to make decisions and to cope with stress and pressures. They are all very important in the formative educational process. Whereas knowledge is vital, it is also vital that the young person can cope with the peer pressures that suggest, for example, that drug taking is fashionable or that crime and vandalism are desirable.

In recognition of the fact that the inculcation of values is a primary and vital part of education, teachers must be trained to bring in the methodologies which provide for the fullest and most complete education. This requires styles of teaching which the teaching profession have not been traditionally trained for. It is, therefore, imperative that teachers are provided with the opportunity to update their methodologies and to gain confidence in a new and challenging dimension to their profession. Indeed, it has been stated on more than one occasion over the past few years that the fall-off and reduction in provision for education correlates, to some extent, the increase in the incidence of crime and vandalism. This upgrading of the professional competence can only be achieved through in-service courses, but there is no indication here of that, since only a token range of in-servicing is proposed for the present year.

Allied to the neglect in updating skills and techniques is the failure to increase the range and scope of psychological services. The psychological service is, undoubtedly, one of the most supportive agencies to the teaching profession. The demand for its services far exceeds its capacity at second level, but unfortunately there is no provision in the current Estimates for the enlargement or extension of that provision. Neither is there any mention from the Government of the slightest intention to undertake a programme of psychological services to primary schools.

For some years now enormous difficulties have arisen in relation to assessment of pupils at health board clinics. I brought this to the attention of the Minister of State, Deputy Kenny, a couple of weeks ago in the House, and the matter has come up here over the last number of years. There is a problem in the relationship between the Department of Education and the Department of Health. I was very disappointed to hear Deputy Kenny say a few weeks ago that the Department are happy with the kind of liaison and ad hoc arrangements which exist at present between them and the Department of Health in dealing with the whole question of assessment and diagnosis in the provision of special education. I am not happy with that and I do not accept that it is adequate. The whole question of the range of services provided between the Departments of Education and Health in this area should be formally structured to ensure a far more effective and efficient delivery.

Deputy O'Rourke spoke at length about remedial education, and I have many ideas on the subject. We are not facing up to the real problem, which can be addressed very effectively by a proper, guided and co-ordinated programme of remedial education. We are building up the numbers, which is commendable, but we need to build them up a lot more. The Minister said that 50 additional teachers were being brought into the pool and, while that is very welcome, it is not enough. It is far more important to get our act together in this regard. What is remedial education supposed to do? Will we continue to withdraw our pupils from the classrooms and use the remedial teacher as a person centred in a room to whom pupils who have been withdrawn are sent? We should use the remedial teacher more as a resource and many people involved in education believe that that has enormous potential which we should be utilising to greater effect. A number of things remain to be done, not just in regard to the remedial teacher and how he or she needs a new form of training or re-orientation in relation to dealing with their colleagues in the classroom, but also to the potential that exists and how helpful it can be.

I wish to refer to research and consultancy in VEC colleges and other third level institutions, because I am not happy with developments in that area. Three years ago the Irish Vocational Education Association and the Association of Vocational Education Colleges submitted a report on research and consultancy in regard to how colleges could play a much more important role in the community in relation to technology, research and consultancy, where the Vocational Education Act needed to be amended and what guidelines needed to be issued. Although those recommendations were made and tentative commitments given three years ago, there has been no response. It is imperative that there should be a response in this regard.

I also should like to refer to European Music Year, 1985, because there has been a great lack of development in that area. I should like to refer to information technology and adult education; but, in case I do not get the opportunity to do so, I should like the Minister to comment on the proposed new inner city community college to replace the colleges in Denmark Street and Parnell Square. This has been in the pipeline for a number of years but has not yet been sanctioned. Given the needs of the inner city and the need to reorganise vocational education there, I should be grateful for the Minister's comments. I hope he will give a commitment to the House that sanction will be forthcoming as speedily as possible and that the building programme will get under way very shortly. I am sure he has been made aware by his Department of the vital needs in the inner city area and this college is one of a number of projects which could make a very important contribution there.

The White Paper on education and development published in 1980 gave a number of commitments in relation to adult education. It stated, for example, in chapter 13, paragraph 4, that adult education activities should be promoted and developed as resources allow in accordance with the general guidelines set out in the educational recommendations of the report of the Committee on Adult Education. That committee reported since 1984. In the same section it is stated that a fundamental area of activity is that of literacy provision.

I would remind the Deputy that his time is up.

I will conclude by saying that education frees people from the bondage of poverty and it is a vital framework for commercial and industrial development. It is the greatest mechanism around that we know of for personal development. I suggest that an educated people are discerning; they are impossible to drive, but tremendously easy to inspire. I ask the Minister to give himself and his successors the opportunity to inspire.

This trend of restricting the time to discuss these important matters is most unfortunate. On the Defence Estimate, after the Minister and the spokesman for the Opposition had finished, there were 22 minutes left which the Leader of the Opposition and I had to divide and that was the extent of the debate. Last night the Minister for Energy raced through 27 pages of script in half an hour so it was impossible for anyone to take it in. More time should be allowed to discuss these Estimates because they are very important. The same problem seems to have been encountered this morning.

Because of the limited amount of time I will not discuss this Vote in a broad sense but will restrict myself to a few topics. I welcome the increase of 25 per cent in the higher education grants as there are greater demands for assistance especially by students in the lower income groups.

The Bill in the House yesterday in relation to malicious damages will greatly affect schools if it becomes law. I have asked in the past for grants to be made available for security and alarm systems for schools, but these are available only in the case of a new school building where the plans for them are included at the time of submission of the architects' plans for the school. In view of the huge amount of vandalism and the considerable investment made by the State in schools throughout the country, we should give 80 per cent grants in the same way as we give them for equipment. We would get a very good return for that because it is almost impossible to keep schools under surveillance. I note also that the clerical assistants grants were maintained and that the problem we had with caretakers and clerical assistants in schools, although stopped a couple of years ago, came to the fore again. If we allow a sophisticated alarm system to be installed in schools it will go a long way towards reducing costs to school boards and school managements.

There is a problem, particularly in the city areas in the huge number of new estates being built all over the place, because of the restrictive guidelines laid down for bus transport for school children. Many of the schools cannot cater for the number of students coming on stream. I know it is difficult for the Department to estimate the number of places they will need in the short term and in the long term. The Minister leaves it to the board of management of the school to decide which areas the school will cater for. While this works in some areas it does not work everywhere and there are a lot of problems in the Dublin area in relation to that.

For example, in my own constituency in Clondalkin there is a new community school, Collinstown Park, where the board of management have decided they will only take students from some of the areas and will leave out some areas which are also in the parish. The Minister says these students will be catered for in the general area. That means students have to be bussed to Ballyfermot or some other part of the constitutency and involves families in heavy expense, at least £5 per week. Also the children would be out of the house from before 8 a.m. until 6 p.m. and this puts a lot of stress and strain on these families.

The policy of the Department in deciding whether or not a child is entitled to free bus transport to school is too restrictive and is taken too literally in that maps are used and the road measured to decide whether or not the child is within a three-mile radius of a school. It does not work and it should be investigated because it is causing tremendous hardship. It almost caused a riot in one part of the city when children were to be bussed from Corduff in the north part of the city to Clondalkin on the south side of the constituency. These are young children going to school and this system just does not work.

In regard to the design of schools, I fail to see why evey single school has to be designed by the Office of Public Works and therefore held up even if the school is only looking for an extension. This procedure takes years and where buildings are required immediately, this system is inadequate. There must be designs which could be taken off the shelf to suit a lot of occasions and this is not done.

Attention should also be given to dual use of schools. The community schools run by the VEC give tremendous value to the community. That does not happen in the case of community colleges or secondary schools which are controlled by other bodies. The community is enriched if it has access to the classrooms and to adult education in such schools and that should be borne in mind.

The Minister should use his muscle to ensure that the best possible system is obtained for the children under the control of the Department of Education. He should step in whenever there are abuses — a particular one is the manner in which the VEC appoint school principals and members to their boards. It is blatantly party political. I know of instances where the chairman of the VEC, by lobbying his political allies on the board, has got himself appointed to the position of school principal. This is a gross insult to the thousands of teachers who are dedicated to teaching. To have such people, many without teaching experience or a teaching pedigree, appointed as principals and assistant principals in schools is a crying shame. It is an insult to every teacher and the organisations should do something about it. The Minister is the ultimate authority and should stop that because he controls the purse strings. They are some of my reasons for not choosing community schools, even though I like their set-up and curricula and the opportunities they give to children. They are very political in their selection of appointees and that should be stamped out.

When one considers the huge Estimate for Education, the neglect of art and the promotion of art and artists in the schools is most disconcerting. There are approximately 175 architects in the Office of Public Works and all kinds of tradesmen such as plumbers, carpenters and electricians, but I do not think there is one artist. The Minister should include an allocation in his Estimate to fund the putting of works by living artists into the schools on a rotation basis. Our living artists should be as well known as the pop groups. That would be one way of enlightening and educating children in the visual arts. This would also lead to the employment of many of our artists and would be a very important aspect of the educational programme. Those artists could talk about their work in the schools. This House should be filled with the works of living artists but there are only a few portraits of dead men in it.

They are not all dead.

They include the work of living artists.

I refer the Minister to his alma mater. On a recent visit I noticed many paintings hanging in the corridors. I was delighted to see this idea, which I have always promoted. I spoke to some students about the effect of this. It was refreshing to see these paintings instead of painted walls. Perhaps the Minister would think about this, because it would be very useful.

It was progressive to remove capitation grants in the last year from private colleges. The Minister concluded by saying there must be few people in Ireland who are not touched in one way or another, either directly or indirectly, by what happens within a very wide range of educational activities. I would remind the Minister that there are numbers of people who are not touched by it. In one part of my constituency, the Inchicore-Kil mainham-Clondalkin area, 1 per cent of the population get a crack at third level education, yet they make up 27 per cent of the population of St. Patrick's and Mountjoy. In another part of the constituency, Ballyfermot with about 50,000 of a population, 4 per cent get a crack at third level education and they make up 17 per cent of the population of St. Patrick's and Mountjoy. Yet Ballyfermot had three second cycle secondary schools closed down in the past two years. The area also has a fine regional college. I could not understand these figures and did an investigation. Its fine regional college and the marvellous opportunities there are used mostly by people living outside Ballyfermot and most of the population in Ballyfermot do pre-employment courses. People come from as far as Dún Laoghaire and from parts of the north side of the city such as Howth to this regional college.

This country is very weak on educational opportunities. The Minister should use his authority and power to increase these opportunities. The benefit usually goes to the professional classes, has done down through the years of the State, and it is still pretty much the same. The Law Society which controls the barristers' profession and the Incorporated Law Society which controls the solicitors' profession are totally independent. Yet we give them grants, £600,000 having been given last year to the King's Inns. When they are allowed to select their own students there cannot be equal opportunity in education. That position should be changed. The Minister should become involved. They should be made give the opportunities to all sectors of the population.

Deputy Kelly always leaves after making his famous emigration speeches. My speeches are to the very opposite effect and I should love him to wait just once to listen to what I have to say on emigration. With respect, he is talking absolute nonsense about people going away and then returning. People who emigrate out of need do not return. Less than 5 per cent, and perhaps only 1 per cent, come back. He is talking about people who are well heeled or well got and who can go abroad, learn a couple of languages and come back here to take over a business or profession. Is he trying to tell us that of the estimated 25,000 who emigrated last year 24,000 will come back? They are a loss to this country. This is the life blood flowing out of the country, the cream of the population. We need those people to replenish the population.

We have the experience of the rural areas and the west, which were depopulated of their youth. These people do not come back, for many reasons, perhaps financial commitments, or marriage. The big loser is the State. Because of the amount of money being poured into education and the educational structures and the success of the higher educational schools around the country, our very highly skilled and trained young population can easily take up jobs in other countries. Because of the lack of job opportunities here and the high taxation, they do so. Could Deputy Kelly suggest why some should come back, take a huge drop in salary and give up a really good job to take a chance here on getting a menial job? The lie should be given to his argument. He should research the subject a little more, when he would find that he is absolutely wrong. I hope we shall be able to give better opportunities in education so that we can provide careers for these people.

In the short time available to me, I shall comment briefly on a few areas of education in which I am interested. An international study, Educational Research and Innovation, has confirmed that pre-school education can be of significant benefit to disadvantaged children. It concludes that it is debatable whether special programmes for disadvantaged children have resulted in lasting improvements in their IQ or academic achievement, but there is agreement that intervention programmes do ensure that children hold their own when they go to primary school. The principal benefit from pre-schooling is that it helps the child to become a pupil and ensures that he will be more likely to succeed at school. Adaptation to schooling includes behaviour and values as well as intellectual ability and academic skill. It would appear from the study that attempts should not be made to produce a standard system of pre-school education for all of the age group, but rather that the emphasis should be on large numbers of community experiments.

High quality education between the ages of three and five are an investment in the future. In Michigan it has been found over a five-year experiment in the sixties that a group of disadvantaged children who attended a pre-school programme over a period of years subsequently performed better at school than a control group who received no pre-school education. On leaving school they were much more likely to find work and had shown less tendency for antisocial and delinquent behaviour.

The follow-up work proved that the programme was not only educationally sound but was economically viable. It was found that a good pre-school programme with strong parental involvement and structured curriculum based on the child's needs can cut the cost of special education in half and will show that there is less need in later life for welfare and special services. After a number of years of experiment it had been shown that twice as many of those who attended pre-school have a job, or are at university compared with the control group. In turn, the control group have twice the incidence of delinquency and criminal offences.

I had believed that to a degree the reasons why middle class children appeared to do best at school was parental motivation rather than for financial reasons only. Children, I felt, studied harder where there was motivation in the home. There is, I think, some truth in that. I am now convinced, however, that much more can be done for children in disadvantaged areas by looking at their problems in terms of environmental factors. Low IQ levels in such areas may be more an index of the children's needs than the way they are.

With the introduction by me of the new curriculum, we changed to a child centred situation from a class centred style. I feel that in developing curricula and standards in the pre-school area, we can, with worthwhile results, move a step further along this line by allowing the child to develop and learn through his own experience, although in a way which asks him to plan and evaluate his work. In such a situation the child tells the teacher what to do and the teacher asks questions and helps expand what he is doing, overall teaching and individual attention to be given by at least two teachers and there must be strong personal involvement. In such a system it will be possible to ascertain what individual children are capable of and to develop their potential. As I have already pointed out, there are higher academic scores among those who have had pre-school experience than among those who have not.

In research commissioned by the Department of Education in England, it was revealed that pre-school education in a wide range of playgroups, nursery schools and classes, gives children from all social backgrounds a marked educational advantage up to the age of ten years. Children's performance in reading, mathematics and general intelligence tests compared favourably with those who had not received pre-school experience. Tests were carried out at five years and at ten years and these showed pre-school children to have a significant edge. Stimulation outside of the home gives children an intellectual advantage.

It was thought, even by eminent educationists, a few years back, that children from poor families had inherited inferior academic abilities and that no amount of pre-school attention could make up the deficit. However, around 1975 in America a few research groups began to report that significant long term benefits were emerging as a result of attendance at pre-school. They showed that former pre-school pupils were far less likely to be put in special education or held back in a class in their subsequent school careers. The benefit of what is known in America as the head start programme is now recognised.

In research carried out in Michigan, USA, a few years ago among black children it was found that at the age of 15 years the pre-school children scored an average of 8 per cent higher in reading, arithmetic and language tests than the control group. That meant they were the equivalent of more than one academic year ahead. By the end of high school only 19 per cent of the pre-school children where the IQs were all in the sub-normal range had been in special education compared with 39 per cent in the control group. Delinquency was more common among those who had not attended pre-school.

In pre-schooling the child must be involved with the teacher in decision making, particularly in respect of small decisions. The teacher should fit in with the child's intentions and such is very demanding on the teacher's skill and imagination. Helping children to make choices and to take responsibility is an excellent way of promoting their social and emotional development. Obviously, therefore, the teacher must be highly trained and it would appear to me that primary teachers have the training and the competence to take on the duties and responsibilities of pre-school education. With a considerable number of fully qualified primary teachers unemployed, such teachers given suitable courses would become expert in this area quickly and at minimal cost.

In Ireland we carried out considerable research in this area in the Van Leer Foundation in Rutland Street. I feel that we did not make use of it to the extent that we should have. It would be worthwhile to make available to all schools the result of that research and also the financial resources needed.

Caithfear cabhair speisialta a thabhairt do réamh-scolaíocht a thugann aird ar leith ar an nGaeilge. Is mór an chabhair do pháistí óga atá idir dhá bhliain go leith d'aois agus cúig bliana d'aois an Ghaeilge a fhoghlaim in a leithéid de scolaíocht mar is é seo an aois is áisiúla do pháistí chun an dara teanga a fhoghlaim. Tá scolaíocht den tsaghas seo thar a bheith tábhachtach do leanaí nach bhfuil Gaeilge acu agus atá ag cur futhu sa Ghaeltacht agus caithfidh an Stát cuidiú ar leith a thabhairt dóibh sin.

Tá suim ar leith againn i bhFianna Fáil sna bunscoileanna lán-Ghaelacha. Cuidímid leo i gcónaí. Tá borradh agus fás tagáithe ar an scolaíocht lán-Ghaeilge. Léirionn an tacaíocht atá á tabhairt ag an phobal dóibh chomh báúil agus atá an pobal i gcoitinne leis an Ghaeilge agus leis an ídeal athbheocana. Caithfear taighde a dhéanamh le fáil amach riachtanais na ndaltaí ar mhian leo agus lena dtuismitheoirí oideachas go hiomlán trí Ghaeilge a fháil agus freastal a dhéanamh ar na riachtanais sin.

There is a very large number of adults in the country, about 100,000, who are in need of remedial help, for example, people who cannot have a bank account because they cannot use it and, indeed, this is one reason why some people do not put their money in the bank and also people who cannot read signs, do the shopping, help their children with their homework and so on. Our educational system has failed these people.

Given the necessary back-up the teacher can detect and measure this problem at an early age, by the use of attainment tests. Tests have been developed for use here in Ireland. The Marino word recognition test is a simple test which can be administered quickly and gives the teacher a fair indication of the child's reading ability. The Drumcondra attainment tests are available for English and mathematics and are suitable for classes from second class onward. They deal with a wider area than the Marino test, but the Department will not make the Drumcondra test available because of cost. There should be a rethink by the Department in this area if real progress is to be made.

Recent research has shown that the grouping system is phased out in the majority of senior classes in the primary school. The reason for this appears to be that teachers are under pressure to prepare their pupils for entrance examinations into secondary schools and so, in a sense, the primary certificate examination, which had been phased out long ago for educational reasons, has been introduced again under a different form. Therefore, the very system, that is grouping, which works to the advantage of the weaker pupils is phased out rather than strengthened as they progress through the educational system. The facts are, too, that very few post-primary schools are geared to deal with the problems of these children and this is very obvious in a large school in my constituency to which I referred at length in this House in the past where they have got one remedial teacher who can devote only part of his teaching time to remedial work.

An estimated 20 per cent of adults in the inner city area of Dublin are believed to be in need of remedial help. A surprise finding for those who are involved in the Dublin VEC adult literacy scheme was that a large number of those who applied to them for help never had any formal education at all. It would appear that these people either did not attend school regularly, if at all, or left after roll call and were not missed because of class sizes.

As I mentioned earlier, because of the lack of back-up services, there is only a limited amount which teachers can do even if the results of attainment tests were available to them. Therefore, immediate consideration must be given to reducing class sizes, to providing social workers, psychologists and more remedial teachers and also to the problems arising from the pressures I mentioned in respect of secondary school entrance.

In 1981, the then Minister for Education, Deputy Boland, abolished corporal punishment in schools but failed to provide an alternative code of discipline. The result is that problems of discipline are escalating in our schools to the detriment of individual students and the whole educational system. For quite a number of years before the Minister took his decision much improved teaching methods, the change from a class centred to a pupil centred system, and a more enlightened approach by the Department of Education were resulting in the phasing out of corporal punishment. I would accept that corporal punishment was abused in a number of cases, but I am convinved that the actual practice of corporal punishment was coming to an end for the reasons I mentioned earlier.

I fully agree with the abolition of corporal punishment, but my complaint is that no alternative was provided and, while not suggesting that all of the increase in the incidence of indiscipline resulted from the lack of action in respect of an alternative, it was clear to me that the disruptive practices which are now relatively widespread in our schools would fill the vacuum. It is obvious that the Minister took a decision without giving the slightest consideration to the consequences and so today we have situations in our schools where a tiny number of pupils can disrupt the whole operation of a school to the detriment of the education of all the pupils and with boards of management and teachers unable to cope, and with no guidance or assistance from the Minister or from the Department as to what they might legally do to help combat unruly behaviour in our schools.

A committee was set up by Dr. O'Donoghue, when Minister for Education, to study the problem. This committee, I understand, have reported long ago and yet no decision has yet been reached by the Minister. Boards of management and teachers all over the country are making ad hoc decisions when faced with disruption, but they do not know whether the decisions they make are legal or not, and the Minister and the Government appear to be satisfied to let the whole system muddle along as best it can, and I suspect they are waiting until some teacher becomes the victim in a test case. This is not good enough and teachers are not likely to continue to accept the situation. When one takes account of the fact that teachers must now try to control large classes in circumstances where parental control in the home is to put it mildly, not as good as it used to be, then one has some idea of the difficulties and problems facing teachers in the area of discipline.

In his reply the Minister should let us know what he proposes as an alternative to corporal punishment and the reasons for the delay in its implementation. Obviously, psychological aids and other assistance are needed for problem pupils, but these are not available to any worthwhile extent. Indeed, I understand there is no psychologist employed in my constituency at present. Is the cost factor the reason for delay, or is there a constitutional problem?

The question of suspensions and expulsions is an area about which I am particularly anxious that the Minister would comment in his reply. Where a teacher finds that a child is so disruptive as to affect the education of the remaining children in the class and, with the consent of the board of management, he suspends that child in the interests of the greater good, is he acting legally, or if in exceptional cirumstances because of continued disruption of a class over a long period, a child is expelled from the school, where do the board of management and the teacher stand? What is the situation vis-à-vis the terms of the Constitution in respect of the right of the child to an education? It is long after time that the Minister grasped the nettle in this respect, put forward his proposals for school discipline and, if necessary, have them tested in the Supreme Court in respect of their constitutionality.

Teaching is a difficult profession, even in ideal conditions, but with increasing disruption in the classroom, it is becoming well nigh impossible. The Minister may have noted that insurance companies no longer regard teachers as being a good risk because of the stress factor, which is resulting in more and more teachers retiring early. It is a most unsatisfactory situation and the Minister and his Department must act at once in the interests of both teachers and pupils.

Leaving certificate students suffer an inordinate amount of stress arising mainly from two sources: First, a fear that they will not do well in the exam, which has now, unfortunately, become the be all and end all of their existence and, secondly, the knowledge that even where they obtain results which a few years ago would have been regarded as exceptional, there is little or no prospect of work being available to them. Doctors are treating adolescents suffering from the physical and mental effects of examination stress. Thousands of students apply for entry to university and other third level institutions. Quite a considerable number will not achieve the basic entry qualifications and thousands of those who qualify will be unsuccessful for lack of places. Entry to competitive faculties needs a whole sheaf of As, not because this is necessary to cope with the study required or, indeed, with the occupation which may be the end result but simply because the number of places available is small. Points have come to mean everything.

There is an obvious need to have an in-depth study carried out on the major problems involved, both in the policy area in second level education and in the policy area at third level. I have always felt that the introduction of the free education scheme before vocational education had been sufficiently developed had created a lopsided system which took years of effort to bring into equilibrium. I recently came across a speech which I made while Minister for Education to a Chamber of Commerce many years ago and I noted from that speech that, at the time of the introduction of free education here, the most a pupil in a vocational school in large towns like Drogheda and Dundalk could aspire to was the group certificate.

The floods of new pupils entering second level education as a result of the free education scheme flowed into the secondary schools, which were almost entirely at the time academically inclined. Whether a child's aptitudes and abilities could be best catered for in such schools came second to the fact that the schools offered the intermediate and leaving certificate examinations, and parents' mind became fixed on a university career for their family. As a result, many young people fell by the wayside. That situation has been corrected to quite an extent over the years since then, but we still have not fully decided on where we are going. There are still large numbers of young people continuing to take subjects in the leaving certificate which do not cater for their abilities and which have no relevance to the world in which they live.

In a rapidly changing world of technological development, the need for a fundamental reappraisal is obvious. Change in our educational system must come. Change, of course, will be resisted because it is so much easier to continue along the old method road where you can measure the water in the glass and decide that it is quarter full or half full or three quarters full. The fact that you have a yardstick which will measure educational progress seems to be more important than whether what we accept as progress is really progress at all. Are the career plans of schoolgoers at odds with the type of work available in the area in which they live, for example? What is the role of the community in helping young people to make the transition from school to working life? Do classroom methods integrate the various capacities of the students in order to improve their ability to learn and to express themselves in a creative way? What are we doing to focus attention on the inadequacies of the present system to prepare students for the future?

In respect of third level education, I have already mentioned the fact that points are all important. The present points system of selection pressurises students and is unfair in the sense that the examination system concentrates on a rather narrow area of a student's total personality and the student is assessed as being suitable or unsuitable on that basis. Interviewing every student might not be practical, not only because it would be time consuming and costly, but also because, being human, articulate middle class lecturers would incline towards middle class articulate students.

That being said, it should, nevertheless, not be beyond our capacity to devise a system which would not only be fair in the ordinary sense, but which would also ensure, in so far as that is possible, that each child will be slotted into the niche in life which suits his talents best. Today, a young person with a great love of animals who proves exceptional in handling animals and caring for their ills cannot become a veterinary surgeon unless he or she has sufficient points. On the other hand, the person who has got sufficient points and who has no problem passing through the course may not have any particular interest in animals and, consequently, would be much less successful in the profession in later life.

The points system which we have got at present is easy to handle by the authorities. It is fair in so far as students are called to third level institutions on the basis of their places in examinations but, as I said earlier, these examination results relate to a narrow area of a young person's personality to the exclusion of almost everything else. A radical change is necessary and it should not be beyond our capabilities to provide one.

Malcolm Muggeridge says that higher education in the United States is booming; the gross national mind, he says, is mounting along with the gross national product. It is on that sort of theme I want to concentrate in my brief contribution to this debate.

A recent set of demographic projections of the NESC, of 1983, indicate that from nkw until the nineties will be a period of consolidation in education given that the demographic pressures of the past are levelling off. This will afford us an opportunity to consider the qualitative aspects of Irish education as opposed to dealing merely with the pressure of the demographic figures.

I want to suggest to the House that it is in a time of recession that one is careful not to cut back on a very important investment in education, particularly in the areas of education about which I want to speak today. If investment in education is important in times of prosperity, it is even more important in times of difficulty and recession. I think it was Aristotle who said that education is an ornament in prosperity and a refuge in adversity. That was in the 4th century BC. It is as important and relevant today as it was then. It is too easy to reach for the knife and say: "Right, let us cut taxes and, if we cut taxes, then we might as well effect cutbacks in education and other such areas." That is a little too easy and not good economics apart altogether from the question of balancing the budget. It is not good economics, as I hope to demonstrate briefly.

The manpower policy in Ireland document published by the NESC in 1986 talked about the development of entrepreneurial and innovative skills as being a key factor in the future economic development of this nation. They talked especially of scientific management, technical and marketing skills. That document, which is very well presented, says that there is a direct relationship between these skills and the capacity of this nation to develop. Because of that they say — and I agree wholeheartedly — many countries are placing increasing emphasis on the role of higher education particularly — I want to concentrate on that aspect — in ensuring that this capacity is met to the full.

Given our unemployment figures I would suggest that this is more important and crucial for us than for many countries, with some 250,000 unemployed, 17 per cent, now the highest in Europe, some 75,000 of those under 25 years of age, and of course that figure will be added to this summer. I put forward the thesis, which is not that imaginative or new, but it is essential that it be repeated firmly in this House as often as possible, which is the linkage between the economic development of this nation and the quality of education we offer our people. There is a direct link between those and it must never be forgotten.

Many contributors speak of education very often without a full and total appreciation of the connection between the development of this country and the educational system itself. It has been said from this floor already, but bears mention again, that the major scandal of the eighties and nineties will have to be the lack of return this nation is getting on its investment in education. I know many fine tributes are paid, particularly by politicians, to our tremendous crops of talented young people. One can scarcely attend a meeting or function these days without somebody making that point from the platform. I do not necessarily want to quibble with that, but I have to say that a lot of the investment we have made and are making in education is not reaping a proportionate economic return.

Education can help solve our economic problems but the condition of our economy also dictates a return on our investment in education. In that context I might refer again — I am glad that Deputy Skelly has confirmed the figure — to the fact of some 25,000 young people still leaving our shores, queueing up at embassies for the necessary visas and so on to go abroad. It must be clear to anybody who sits back and thinks about it that we are not getting the return on the investment we have made in those 25,000 people, or any 25,000 people. Rather we are exporting many of our future business leaders, many of our technologically-minded people.

I received a letter last week from a group of professors in an Irish university in which they said they had had a discussion about their own students and graduates. They had conducted a small survey of their final year students. These were professors in the technology and innovative areas generally, the industrial and commercial sector. They had conducted a survey in their university some ten days previously when 50 per cent of the final year students had said to them directly that they would be leaving Ireland and would not be returning except on holiday — 50 per cent of graduates in one Irish university in the commercial and high technology area.

Apart from the human tragedy, on which no doubt others have dwelt, I want to dwell on the economic madness of that in that, throughout the student lifetime of those people we invested substantial sums of money in their education. Very largely we rely on such people to lift the rest of the economy with their skills determination and commitment. As a nation somehow we manage — I am not blaming any particular Government; it has been our failure as a nation for many years — to drive these people from our shores. That is not some type of safety valve which helps us solve unemployment; quite the contrary, it is an economic as well as a human loss. That point should be made very strongly.

I wonder whether some economists might engage in the exercise of examining some scheme to keep people like that at home, ascertaining how they could, in return, contribute to our economy, so that the State would reap the investment it has made in them. Any such exercise would need to take into account the loss of investment on those people who emigrate and do not return, having finished third level education, particularly in the business and technology areas. If one adds up the cost of the investment the State has made in them, the loss of opportunity to the State of their inventfulness and innovation in the economy, one would end up with a total loss, even if one were to consider investing somewhat in endeavouring to keep them at home.

I do not suppose it is possible to have a two or three tier taxation system for citizens; probably that would be unconstitutional. But I am quite convinced economically that the loss of these students to our economy — those who could create jobs here, those with the inventfulness to do so — in the long term is very steep. Any imaginative taxation or investment arrangement which could be devised by say, the Department of Industry and Commerce, Finance and Education would more than pay for itself if those people were to be persuaded to remain here and help us out. Why have our educated young technogical, innovative-minded people and all of us not been able to do for this nation what the Japanese graduates have done for Japan or the Swiss graduates for Switzerland? Why do they feel that those kinds of opportunities can be provided for them only beyond our shores?

Recent international comparisons show that, despite recent advancements, Ireland is still at the lower end of the scale in the scientific and technical areas vis-á-vis our competitors in regard to education. The Department and institutions are quite correct in concentrating very largely now on the technological, scientific and marketing areas. Speaker after speaker in economic debates calls for more food processing — that is the trendy one nowadays. Let us have more forestry development, more oil and gas development, more software writers, more financial services, more marketing skills in China and so on. Where do we get the people to invest in these areas, to manage and develop them? Do we get them from the existing educational system? Which school teaches how to manage a food processing plant? Which university tells one how to set up an oil and gas development company? Which course teaches how to develop Irish forestry? Where is the business school which teaches us how to develop financial services, to create employment and wealth in those areas?

We have two systems. We have an educational system which is a type of luxury in the sense that it educates us for ourselves, which I have come to the conclusion is increasingly selfish. More and more we must educate people for this country as well as for themselves. That is where the gap lies. The parallel system is an abysmal structure. There is a demand for more wealth without turning out the people to create that wealth. I know of no institutions, except one or two which I will mention later, who are making a contribution to the creation of wealth in a very direct sense. There must be a breakdown of this blank wall between our universities and our industries. I know that UCG and UCC and, I think, UCD have liaison officers who liaise between the Department and the university. The Government White Paper on investment in industry published last year made some very grandiose commitments to closing that gap between industry and the universities but I have yet to see anything meaningful happening.

We must make a greater attempt to involve industry in curriculum development in universities and business schools. I am not asking universities to give up their autonomy to some multimillionaires in Irish industry and let them dictate how universities should be run. In drawing up courses in the universities which will lead to the creation of wealth and jobs, the universities should at least talk to people in industry who are developing the economy and living with the pressures on the ground. The universities should not depend entirely on the experience of a very fine batch of MBAs or MAs who are already in the educational system. That perpetuates the difficulty I am speaking about. There is a blank wall between business education and Irish business.

I do not want to be a Philistine in my approach to education but we have reached the stage where we must be more hard headed, practical and determined, a bit like the Japanese. We must say to people in third level colleges that they are not being educated just for the sheer enjoyment of it from their point of view, although that is not to be under-estimated. There is another side to it which we never stress — that we expect business education to be of such quality as to help us create wealth and we expect those people to go and do it. We must do some straight talking in that regard if we are to develop our economy in a real sense.

I should like to see our universities develop academic consultancies and secondment to industry. I should like to see the universities paying their way in a business sense. Most of the American universities have a substantial income compared to European universities which they gain by taking foreign students, usually at increased prices, taking on consultancies, special involvement in business communities and training professors. I see no reason why the £108 million or more which we now spend on third level education could not be reduced if the universities were to take a more commercial view of the talents they have. I believe they should do so now. They would have access to the real business community and would be able to pass on that expertise to the business students.

Professor Louden Ryan developed this whole theme in his recent report. He was talking about the relationship between industry and education. He concentrated on the two aspects on which I am also concentrating, that is, the need to produce graduates with the skills and qualities which industry wants and asking the universities to carry out the kind of research which industry finds very useful. It is a waste of resources to tolerate the continuing gap between industry and our third level institutions.

I draw the House's attention to the fact that 97 per cent of German companies employ fewer than 50 people. Ciaran Kennedy of the ESRI spoke about this in a recent paper. The figure in the US is not very much different. Where do those 97 per cent of companies get their personnel? They get them from organised business schools in Germany. I call for the establishment of a proper business school which would be drawn together from the departments of economics and commerce in some of the universities and the IMI, who do a fair job considering the resources they have. I should like to see a proper Irish business school which could be funded from the savings I have pointed to in the university area. Such a school would make a major contribution to education.

There is a direct link between the future economic health of the people and the type of education in third level institutions. We have not met that challenge in these institutions and we must now begin to train the people who will create the jobs and the wealth by setting up companies. People have to be educated to do these things. Our third level institutions have not succeeded in meeting that challenge. If they do not meet it now, the next generation, deciding whether to emigrate or work for Ireland, will unfortunately have to opt for emigration.

I put that challenge firmly in front of the Government and of this House and, most important, in front of the universities and third level institutes. Alexandre Dumas asked how it is that little children are so intelligent and men so stupid; he said it must be education that does it. We must think about the dangers of being over rigid in education. There is a need for more flexibility and flair in third level institutions in order to develop and produce the entrepreneurs of tomorrow, the people who will create jobs and wealth and ultimately save this country from the appalling economic difficulties it now faces.

Dún Laoghaire): I will confine my remarks to the activities of the Department in the area of sport and physical recreation. In the past number of years there has been a major increase in participation in all kinds of sporting activities. This may be attributed to more leisure time, extensive coverage and attractive presentation of sporting occasions in the mass media and a greater awareness of the value and importance of physical fitness to the well being of the individual.

These developments are very welcome and are in keeping with the Government's policy of encouraging people to participate in sporting activities. However, having created an awareness of the value of physical recreation in sport, there is an obligation on Government to provide the necessary backup services to ensure that sports participants have the best advice available to them in relation to coaching, training and injury prevention as well as ensuring that talented sportspersons have adequate opportunities to achieve their full potential at the highest level of international competitions.

Having regard to the current economic climate and to the resulting restrictions on public expenditure, I am satisfied that the Government's allocation of £1.605 million to sport at national level in 1986 is an extremely generous one. Of this amount, a sum of £976,950 has recently been allocated in direct grants to national sports organisations to assist in the areas of coaching, administration, equipment and special projects designed to increase participation or improve standards. I believe that this commitment from the Government to voluntary sports organisations is testament to the work which is being done by those organisations which must be regarded as the backbone of sport in Ireland.

The major beneficiary of the increased allocation for sport in 1986 is the Olympic Council of Ireland, which has received a total grant of £275,000 this year. This is the most substantial and significant contribution ever made by a Government to the development of athletes of Olympic potential. The allocation of this grant to the Olympic Council of Ireland will enable them to implement phase II of the Olympic Development Plan which was drawn up between the Olympic Council of Ireland and Cospóir, the National Sports Council. The submission contains proposals as to the best means of meeting the requirements of our elite athletes leading up to the 1988 Olympics and also relating to Olympic sport in the long term. I am certain that this grant will have a major impact not only for our most elite athletes but also for the identification and development of the potential of junior athletes in the various Olympic sports.

Included in the allocation of grants to eight national governing bodies of sport is a provision of £100,000 to the national sports organisations to enable them to undertake special developments in 1986. The following is the breakdown of that provision:

£20,000 to Bord Lúthchleas na nÉireann in respect of the employment of a full time administrator;

£10,000 to the Irish Amateur Boxing Association towards the cost of special events to celebrate the 75th anniversary of the association;

£10,000 to the National Community Games to improve services to members into the community, particularly in disadvantaged areas;

£15,000 to the Irish Wheelchair Association to appoint a full time officer to under the work of organising sporting/leisure programmes for the Irish Wheelchair Association;

£10,000 to the Irish Amateur Rowing Union to develop domestic rowing;

£10,000 to the National Finance Committee for amateur football for the development of juvenile soccer, particulary in schools;

£10,000 to the Irish Lawn Tennis Association in recognition of the major developments which this association has undertaken in recent years; and

£15,000 the Cumann Lúthchleas Gael to develop Gaelic games in schools.

Since my appointment as Minister for Sport, I have been considering the methods by which the Government grants to sporting organisations have been expended. Arising from these deliberations I am convinced that special emphasis must be placed on the development of sporting opportunities at youth level. If this context, Féile na nGael, which is the national festival of youth focussed on the game of hurling, plays a major role. Accordingly, I was very pleased to allocate a grant of £4,000 towards the 1986 féile. As further evidence of the Government's commitment to the development of sporting activities for our young people, I am allocating an additional grant of £8,000 to Cumann Lúthchleas Gael na mBunscoileanna to assist with the development of Gaelic games in primary schools. I am very much aware that our national games, and in particular the game of hurling, have to be nurtured and developed at the most basic level. If we can awaken an interest in these games among our primary schools children, they will be preserved for future generations of Irish sportspersons to develop and enjoy. I am confident that this extra allocation will enable much progress to be made in the promotion of our games at school level.

In 1986, as in previous years, grants have been made available towards the cost of sending national teams abroad to participate in major international events such as world and European chamionships and multi-nation tournaments. In addition, grants are allocated towards the cost of hosting major international competitions in Ireland. Recently, I met with representatives of the Cork City Sports Committee who are seeking Government support for the 1986 Cork City Sports. This meeting is now regarded as the largest and most prestigious athletic event in Ireland and it gives an opportunity to all home based athletes to compete against some of the world's best athletes. Having considered a request from the organising committee I was pleased yesterday to be able to make an allocation of £10,000 to help towards the enormous costs involved in ensuring the success of this worthwhile meeting.

As part of the policy of assisting top class sports people my Department operate a sport scholarship scheme which enables young sports people of promise to endeavour to improve their performances in their chosen sport while simultaneously pursuing an academic career. At present there are 19 young people in receipt of such a scholarship and it is my intention to award a further five scholarships from the commencement of the 1986-87 academic school year. A feature of these scholarships is that the scholarship holders are rigorously monitored and tested by competent experts to ensure that they are given every opportunity to reach the highest level in their chosen sport. Under the scheme provision is also made to enable the scholarship holders to attend important courses, seminars and competitions either at home or abroad. For the information of the House the value of the sports scholarship for 1986-87 will be the full cost of the lecture fee, together with a maintenance allowance of £485 if living at home, and the maintenance allowance of £1,213 if living away from home.

In 1986, for the first time, a provision of £100,000 has been made for a grant scheme to enable outstanding sportspersons to undertake training and competition at the highest level which will ensure that they will be able to compete with distinction in international events. We all accept that in Ireland there are many gifted sports people who, notwithstanding their own and their coaches efforts, may not be able to realise their full potential. Quite often their failure to reach the top in their sport may be due to the sportsperson not being in a position to give adequate time to training owing to work commitments. I hope the scheme will give elite athletes an opportunity to attend top level coaching and training away from home, or in Ireland, if the facilities are available. In introducing this new scheme I am hopeful that the top class athlete will be afforded every opportunity to undertake training and coaching at the highest level which may ultimately lead to further success at international events of which we will all be proud. I will shortly be announcing the precise details of this scheme.

Provision is also made in the allocation for sport, for sports exchanges with a number of European countries. This programme of cultural exchanges offers an opportunity for Irish sports people to visit other European countries to inform themselves about the organisation of sport and avail of special coaching and training.

Up to now I have confined my comments in the main to the investment which is made in the field of elite sport. However, an equally important aspect of sport policy is the implementation of the "Sport for All" policy. We all have noticed the great increase in participation in sport and recreational activities by people for whom the first flush of youth has long since diminished. In the last decade, and in particular under the influence of the many sport for all campaigns which have been promoted by Cospóir, the National Sports Council, sport has become an increasingly important social phenomenon.

Cospóir will be involved again in 1986 in continuing to develop projects and sports programmes, in conjunction with the selected national sports associations, which are aimed at increasing participation in sport and improving standards. These programmes will give a high profile to sport as a healthy and enjoyable leisure activity. It is my earnest wish that many more armchair sport people will involve themselves in some form of recreational activity which would benefit both themselves and society in general.

While speaking on the "Sport for All" concept I would not like to forget the people at the other end of the age scale who opt out of sport for no other reason than they feel that they have no role to play in sport. Quite often at under age level games are dominated by a few strong players on each team while the others play little or no part in the game. During a recent visit abroad I was quite impressed by efforts which I saw which were aimed at addressing this problem. Two examples come to mind: The introduction of a new scoring system whereby the value of a score is decided by the number of players on the team who played the ball before a score, e.g., six players on the team are involved leading to up to the score then the value of the score is six points. I saw this in Australia; and the redesigning of pitches and goal posts more to scale with young participants.

In this context I have no doubt that it would be useful if local authorities, when laying out pitches and public parks, gave consideration to setting aside an area of ground on which a mini version of games could be played. The idea is to encourage younger children to participate.

In addition to the funds which are available to aid sport at national level, a sum of £1,050,000 is available in 1986 for allocation to vocational education committees to enable them to respond to the need of youth and sport clubs and organisations at local level. This is a very important aspect of funds for sport and it should not be overlooked in considering the overall provision in this area. I will be asking the vocational education committees to allocate a specific portion of this grant for sport for all activities, in order to ensure that the youth and sport grant is primarily made available to the various youth sport clubs to promote their activities. It is essential that State funds percolate in this way to local sporting organisations to support their efforts in promoting sport. Other specific projects which this grant will assist are: play schemes for young travellers; provision of youth and sport services to disadvantaged young people: training courses for leaders working with these disadvantaged young people; and outdoor education programmes. I hope that Members who are also members of local authorities will encourage them to take account of the fact that small children should not be asked to defend nine-foot goalmouths.

The role which I see for Government in sport is that of a support for the voluntary effort of the many people in sporting organisations who give so much of their time to the provision of sporting opportunity for our people. It is never the intention to supplant these very dedicated people.

However, I know from my own experience that the raising of funds for sport, and in particular for major sporting events, is a enormous task. It is in this context that commercial sponsorship is so welcome. For many years commercial companies have been very generous in their sponsorship of sporting events. In 1986, I am glad that it will now be possible for companies and individuals to donate moneys to sport through Cospóir, the National Sports Council, for which they will receive tax exemption, for donations between £100 and £10,000. I am confident that this very attractive scheme will entice companies who have not up to now been involved in sponsorship to come forward to avail of this innovation. I will shortly be releasing details of this scheme.

The Government are aware of the vital role that sport plays in modern society. In Ireland, as elsewhere, there is a growing problem of alienation resulting in unrest, alcoholism, vandalism, truancy and other social misbehaviours. Some of these problems relate to increased leisure time and lack of recreational opportunities particularly for young people. The Government are constantly aware of their responsibility to the youth of Ireland and recognise that there is an urgent need to cater in the widest sense for recreational outlets so that leisure activities always will be chanelled into wholesome and positive outlets. The Government have and will continue to pursue vigorously this objective with a wide range of innovative measures to heighten the public awareness of the value of sport and to promote opportunities for recreational pursuits.

Does any Member wish to intervene?

What is the position?

You can intervene for five minutes and then the Minister has five minutes to reply, unless some other Member offers an intervention.

One does not have to take up the five minutes with each intervention.

The Minister spoke about income eligibility limits and that grants would be in accordance with inflation in the next academic year. We heard many estimates of inflation and requests to people to work within inflation. What will the new income eligibility limits be and the consequent increase in grants?

When you come to establish the rate of inflation you do it historically or by projection. When matters are linked to inflation the linkage is to the projected rate and there are varying estimates for it at the moment. We are talking about the next academic year and that means the increases would be linked to the projected rate of inflation over the next academic year. It is premature at the moment to say what that will be. We must wait for the academic waters to clear, but it certainly would not be more than 4 per cent and possibly as low as 2 per cent. The important thing is that the real value of the maintenance element of the grants will be adhered to — their purchasing power will not be diminished.

The Minister referred to school transport and said the charges would be increased by only 5 per cent but that they would be increased again in September. As yet, the increase has not been defined. It appears to me there will be two increases in school transport charges in 1986. I realise it will be over two academic school years but it is two increases in the calendar year 1986. The rate increased by 5 per cent in January 1986. Parents would like to know what will be the increase so that they can plan accordingly. My second question relates to the inter-departmental review of school transport. I wish to know when the committee will issue their findings.

I will have to communicate the new charges to the Deputy because I do not have the specific details here in regard to the rates accruing as from September 1986. I think they may have been notified to the transport offices but I am not sure about that. However, I will communicate them to the Deputy. Unfortunately, it has been necessary to raise the rates. It is my intention to keep the increases to the lowest possible figure but the total cost of the school transport system at £36 million is a huge amount of money. Obviously, the costs have to be kept in mind and there has to be a balance between the level of contribution and level of charges. We will try to achieve a proper balance when sanctioning further increases. There will be no experiments this year with regard to any new module or new formula for school transport.

In this speech the Minister dealt with adult education and he said the amount allocated for 1986 would be £350,000. However, there has been no notification to the VECs regarding the financial allocation even though we are now six months into the financial year. I think it was in September 1985 that a four month allocation was given, with a promised commitment up to 1987 but it appears that this has not been honoured yet. Will the Minister say when notification will be sent to the committees and will he give an indication of the extent of the provision?

I understand the VECs will be told what will be their allocation under this heading in the near future. I cannot give that information at this stage but I hope it will be done very shortly and in sufficient time to enable them to discharge their programmes and obligations.

In his speech the Minister spoke about technology in third level institutions but there was little reference to the Irish scene and any proposed developments in that area. I am concerned about submissions made to his Department about three years ago by the IVEA and AVEC. A number of definitive proposals were put to the Department at that time to enable third level colleges to have more access to industry and commerce by way of research and consultancy and also to have the reverse process in operation. In view of the Minister's statement regarding the importance of technology, research and consultancy, will he say if the Department propose to respond to these proposals? In particular, do they propose to introduce amendments in view of the need for speedy access for colleges and the staffs?

What does the Deputy mean by "speedy access"?

Perhaps I was not very clear. I am anxious to know if the Department intend to respond to the submissions from the IVEA and AVEC regarding technology, research and consultancy in third level colleges. They have made some important proposals with regard to extending this to the commercial world and I should like to know if the Department propose to respond to them in the near future.

Will the Deputy say when the submissions were made by the IVEA?

They were made about three years ago by the IVEA and the AVEC relating to research and consultancy and the restrictions on third level vocational colleges.

I think the Deputy is making a strong case for the implementation of the Green Paper. If the present statutory framework is not adequate to permit expansion of third level colleges into the industrial area, obviously we will have to look at the framework. I am not totally au fait with the details of the point the Deputy has made. Obviously, I am very keen to see greater integration and co-ordination between third level education and industry. This is taking place already between the universities and the NIHE and I should like to see it expanded. It is already there in respect of the technological colleges and the next segment to be involved in the process will be the RTCs. It is already in existence on an ad hoc basis so far as concerns a local RTC. Deputy O'Rourke and I will be aware, for example, that there is close contact between the plastic industry in our town and the RTC who have a faculty in plastic engineering. I am sure that kind of operation can be formalised and expanded. Obviously, something needs to be done. I will check the present status of the IVEA and AVEC submissions and will contact the Deputy on the matter.

In his speech the Minister referred to the Curriculum and Examinations Board and I also spoke on the matter at some length. He said the draft legislation was at an advanced stage. Can he tell the House when he hopes the legislation will be introduced?

I am confident the legislation will be introduced before we recess for the summer.

What about discussion?

I am not so confident we will have the discussions completed before we recess for the summer, having listened to Deputy O'Rourke this morning. Quite rightly, she pointed out it is fundamental legislation and it may require a longish time for debate here. It is a fairly lengthy Bill. It is possible we may not complete the debate before the summer but we will have to wait and see how it goes.

It will be introduced before the recess?

Yes. I hope we may at least complete Second Stage but we can discuss that.

I noted with interest that the Minister of State gave a fine speech on all aspects of sport, incorporating many modern ideas. However, I did not hear anything about the major forthcoming event, namely, the announcement by the sub-committee of Cospóir regarding the location of a national sports centre. I was surprised the speech of the Minister of State did not contain any reference or announcement on that matter. Will he tell the House when the announcement will be made and whether negotiations are proceeding?

Dún Laoghaire): As I have already stated, a sub-committee of Cospóir was set up some months ago for this purpose. They have almost completed their work. A very extensive examination of facilities around the country has been carried out by this committee. They have met various groups and organisations, different towns have made submissions and they went to see facilities in various places. I hope their report will be available within the next couple of weeks.

To the Government?

(Dún Laoghaire): It will be presented to me as Minister of State responsible for sport, and I will be consulting with my colleague from Athlone. We will look at the recommendations and the costings. This committee will be producing an interim report identifying needs and sporting facilities. As I said, we will then look at these suggestions and then think about costings. I am very anxious to see what suggestions they make. I am looking forward to the National Lottery.

When will it be set up?

(Dún Laoghaire): The Bill will be in the House and all Stages passed before the summer recess. I hope the National Lottery will be set up later this year and that we will be getting money very shortly from it. That money will be used for proper sporting facilities on a phased basis. I wish to compliment the committee on the work they have done. This is the first time we carried out such an extensive examination of such facilities and I am sure the report, even though it is an interim report, will be very useful.

This is the first time I have heard the word "interim" in respect of the report of the sub-committee. I understood the report would be definitive saying exactly where the national sports centre should be. From the Minister's answer it appears that the committee will be making recommendations as to the suitability of certain sections of sporting facilities in certain locations. If that is so, it marks a shift in what was originally intended, which was the location of a definite sports centre. Is the word "interim" new in this context?

(Dún Laoghaire): No. When I say “an interim report” I mean that the committee will spell out the type of facilities they feel are needed. I do not know if they will say we should have one sports centre or a number of regional sports centres. Everybody have their own impression of what a national sports centre means. It is all very well getting recommendations, but they must be costed. The committee as they were set up, did not have the power to appoint a consultant to cost the type of facilities they would be recommending. They will deal solely with the national sports centre itself and making recommendations for a future programme for developing sport in Ireland. Before one can provide certain facilities, costings have to be made. The last thing I want, or any Member wants, is to build a white elephant which will soak up all the money available for the development of sport. Whatever structure we have must be cost effective. We must have a proper management structure and it must not be something which will use up all the money that is available for the development of sport. The report will be extremely useful to us from that point of view. I am sure the committee will say that they have considered, examined and are recommending that a national sports centre should be provided and that it should have the following facilities. They may then say it is felt that this sports centre, because of this or that, would be best suited to be located in X place.

In Athlone.

(Dún Laoighaire): I do not know. A decision will then have to be taken.

It is amazing how Ministers and Ministers of State presume that legislation will be passed through this House——

Legislation normally passes through the House.

Eventually.

The Minister is in a cynical mood today; perhaps I can put salt on his tail. If he had let me finish the sentence I would have said——

It is amazing how Ministers presume that legislation will be passed through this House even though there are some Deputies who intend to fight very hard to stop certain legislation passing through the House and that Ministers also take it upon themselves, because they have a majority, to presume that the numbers game will always go their way. I will be trying to ensure that the Minister does not get a single penny from the lottery because I totally disapprove of lotteries.

Is this a question?

On a question raised in the House on another occasion I mentioned to the Minister of State that he will not be able to ensure——

Your question, please Deputy.

What have Deputies been speaking about for the last ten minutes?

I was asking questions.

I am talking about the Estimate.

Continue on the Estimate.

When was I not talking about the Estimate?

On the Estimate, please.

What was the Minister talking about?

Please continue Deputy.

I was talking about the lottery legislation which will be passed before the summer recess and which will supply the money to build sports centres for education and so on. The lottery will be a tax on the poor. We will be asking the poor to subsidise the better off members of the community by providing these facilities because, as we all know, it is the advantaged members of society who use these facilities. I am totally opposed to lotteries and I will be making a considered submission about them. I will attempt to prove that in different countries——

Will the Deputy be voting against it?

——even Governments and Ministers have come out strongly against them and said they are immoral and are a tax on the poor. If the Minister wants to do something worthwhile it is worth taxing people; but, if it not worthwhile, he should not do it.

Would the Minister comment on my remarks about art and the suggestion of providing a percentage of the Estimate for the promotion of art in schools? Even a small figure of £100,000, or .01 per cent of the Estimate, would get some sort of scheme off the ground. Education and health are the biggest areas of expenditure, yet I cannot find anything in the Estimates for those areas. Would the Minister take up the suggestion I made to allocate a sum for security in schools in high risk areas because of the high rates of crime and vandalism? He might help the schools in the same way as equipment is grant aided to the extent of 80 per cent. Perhaps he would extend these grants to cover alarm systems in schools in order to stop vandalism and high expenditure on insurance in those areas.

The thought of installing alarm systems is attractive but obviously it would depend on the financial implications. There might be some high risk areas where it could be desirable. This is something I could pursue under the heading of grant for capital equipment for schools. On the question of art, while there may be no specific subheads dealing with that, in the same sense that there is no specific subhead dealing with any other subject, there is an increasing emphasis on art appreciation at all levels, including primary level. Teacher training incorporates art appreciation as part of the curriculum and teachers are in a position to impart knowledge in that regard. Some vocational education committees have a full time art officer whose task is to increase knowledge of various art forms, paintings, sculpture and so on. Obviously, we would like to be able to provide more funds but again we get back to limited resources and trying to spread the butter thinly. It is not something the Department are unaware of and steps have been taken albeit limited preliminary steps, but we will build on them in the time ahead.

The Minister mentioned that he was increasing the number of remedial teachers by 50. I put the case a few times in relation to where we go from here by way of policy and delivery of remedial education, whether we continue down the road of withdrawal of pupils from classrooms or whether we start, on a pilot or national basis, to consider the remedial teacher more in the role of a resource teacher. Do the Department intend to make moneys available this year to have something like a national seminar for our remedial teachers? Is any policy document in preparation within the Department to consider guidelines for remedial teachers? There is a great deal of confusion abroad among remedial teachers as to where their future role best lies. I am sure the Minister is aware of surveys done by teaching organisations. A psychologist in St. Patrick's Training College did a survey on this around 1981-82 and I understand there was a follow-up more recently from that same source. That is the background. Deputy O'Rourke dwelt at length on the need there. Are there any proposals under the provisions for a more co-ordinated approach in line with an increase in the pool of teachers?

Remedial teachers are a most important area. Deputies have mentioned the level of illiteracy and people who escape the system and end up lacking literacy skills and maybe illiterate. We do not know the exact dimension of the problem because it is not susceptible to statistical analysis. I must take issue gently with Deputy O'Rourke when she described it as a staggering rate. Any level of illiteracy could literally be described as unacceptable. We do not want to exaggerate it, but it is a reflection on the system that anyone should escape. One of the primary roles of the adult education push is to try to identify and take out these people and give them literacy and numeracy skills. To ensure that people do not escape through the system, the role of the remedial teacher will have to be examined and attended to during the coming year.

Many of the issues raised by Deputy O'Rourke and Deputy Fitzgerald are already under consideration in the Department and the programme for action refers to new arrangements to provide that remedial posts once allocated are used to provide the best possible service within the school as a whole. Deputy O'Rourke made a point about the invidious result of having remedial teachers taking out acute pupils and dealing with them. We are looking at that. The programme for action envisaged that the remedial teacher would have an influence on the school as a whole, rather than dealing specifically with a number of hard cases, so to speak. The matter is under examination. I take on board the Deputy's point about making the best possible use of remedial teaching.

My question relates to EC funding. Is it just a premonition of the Minister's or of his Department, or is it certain that the percentage share of that fund from Europe which we are getting at present is going to decrease? Have forward plans been made to cope? I see that as long as the funds are committed, the Government will be committed to funding all of those programmes at both second and third level educational institutions. Is it certain that these funds will decrease? If they are to decrease, is there a commitment to their continuance albeit at a decreased level, or were plans made for ordering priorities into whatever funds would be available? Will stringent efforts be made by the Department to continue that level of EC funding?

I do not want to speculate on what might happen adversely in the EC lest in speculating about it, I might assist it to happen. I hope nothing like that will happen. We will fight tooth and nail to maintain as large a share of the Social Fund as possible having regard to the various demographic problems we have here allied to a comparatively low state of development compared with other EC countries, although that argument does not apply as far as the new entrants are concerned. Nevertheless, we have a strong case for argument for the continuance of our share of the Social Fund.

The Social Fund grants fund many students without means test. In the Social Fund budget there is a large national contribution. Should anything drastic happen to the Social Fund contribution, assuming the worst, that it is to be totally cut off which I think will not happen, we will then be left with only the national part of that funding which would be roughly 45 per cent. At that stage obviously we would have to get into a means testing scheme.

The point has been made to me, and I am sure to Deputy O'Rourke, by students that the ESF grants go to people they know have no financial need of them, so obviously there is room for discrimination. Discrimination is not allowed by Brussels and that is why there is no discrimination at the moment but, should the worst come to the worst, we would have to become discriminatory with the national funds left available to us. We are taking all diplomatic and lobbying steps possible to make sure that our share of the fund will not be diminished adversely.

The Minister and Deputy Fitzgerald have spoken about the Green Paper. First of all, is it going to become a White Paper? What is the next stage? Usually it is a White Paper. From time to time the Minister says things which would lead one to believe that part of the Green Paper's suggestions might not be implemented and part of them might be. I notice that this paper was arrived at through lengthy Government discussions. Will the Minister be implementing the proposals in it relating to EC committees? Does he envisage a time scale for the next stage of discussions or issuing of documents or legislation with regard to any aspect of the Green Paper?

It is too soon to say and I am not in a position to say because I have not made up my mind on what parts of it will be accpeted and implemented or not implemented. As I said in my introductory speech, there have been a great number of submissions which are still under examination. We are distilling wisdom from them to see what sort of brew emerges eventually and what I see that we will make up our minds on what precisely we will do. I do not know at this stage that I would promise a White Paper. I do not know if the matter would require a White Paper. The issues are fairly met and a number of submissions that have been made are such that if one were to issue a White Paper one would have to make a value judgement on the basis of a submission and one's own assessment of it. Then there would be a further protracted period while more submissions would follow on the White Paper. The discussionss have probably been going on long enough and were deep enough and the issues are sufficiently clear for me to make a decision, probably in the autumn. It might be possible to make preliminary decisions on some issues before the autumn but, before all the issues raised in the Green Paper are disposed of, I imagine it will be autumn.

In relation to two aspects, first let me refer to the earlier matter about the colleges. I should have asked if there was a facility to end the existing Act to enable development in the areas referred to — research, consultancy and so on — to continue. I did not feel I was making a case for the implementation of part II of the Green Paper. I know that the Minister is at present considering submissions reaching him, but does he envisage the preparation of a Bill in relation to any part of the Green Paper before the autumn?

No, there is no question of that happening before the summer. If legislative changes are necessary, having regard to the length of submissions and the drafting process, they could not come into effect this side of Christmas. I hope that a decision in principle will be made in the autumn, but there is a question mark over legislation.

Some Members spoke very fluently on the need for modern languages. The Minister referred to it first and it was taken up by Deputy Kelly and other speakers. There is a need for participation in foreign language classes in second level schools and I asked the Minister if he would consider intervening in this area in allocating special teaching positions for schools who did not, heretofore, have the facility to teach a second modern language distinct from Irish and English.

I am attracted to that idea and I am having the whole area of teaching modern languages examined. Obviously, if one were to provide extra teachers for modern languages, considerable resources would be needed. One might have to consider taking teachers who are at present teaching a modern European language out of service and giving them a facility in the second language. Perhaps that is the way to deal with it but, as I said, these matters are being examined at present to see how more foreign languages can be taught.

I should like to thank Deputies for their contributions. The tone of the debate befitted the nature of the subject. It was not an academic debate in the sense that "academic" generally means something impractical and not related to the real world. It was a dispassionate debate with the minimum of politics per se in it. I found it very valuable and helpful. In the question and answer session, we covered quite a few of the points raised and, while I thought initially that 15 minutes would not be long enough to reply, I now consider that it might be more than adequate.

I touched on the question of disadvantage and Deputy Faulkner had some very interesting thoughts on the matter which agree with research done on the subject. It also takes in a point which Deputy Skelly made that in a part of his constituency very large numbers have gone through the secondary cycle but do not go on to third level education. He was worried about this and obviously I, too, am worried about it. An amount of sociological research has been done to try to identify the reasons for this. No great volume of research has been done here. However, I do not think that the conclusions or parameters of the research would differ vastly from country to country and we could probably rely on it. That research tends to suggest that the main inhibition is not financial but attitudinal. It touched on something to which Deputy Faulkner referred, that the disadvantage of people coming from a certain socioeconomic group is apparent as early as four years of age. Two children, each four years of age, coming from two different social groups will be disadvantaged from that early age and that disadvantage continues right through their academic careers and ends up as a total inhibition to taking up third level education.

Deputy Faulkner made the interesting point that that disadvantage can only be compensated for by pre-school training. It is a most desirable concept, in America it is known as the head start. Obviously, it is desirable and will have to be examined. However, the old question of resources comes up and we must try to provide them and operate within certain limits. We must try to ensure that that injustice is removed, because I am satisfied that it is only by tackling the problem at that level and working up that we will redress the imbalance to which Deputy Skelly rightly referred.

Deputy Faulkner also raised the question of discipline and said that my predecessor, Deputy Boland, prematurely abolished corporal punishment without having a substitute for it. Deputy Faulkner implied that we have problems in regard to suspensions or expulsions as a result. Those problems have not arisen since the abolition of corporal punishment; they have been legal and constitutional problems lurking in the undergrowth of education for some time. I suppose the abolition of corporal punishment brought them more into focus; but at present a committee on discipline are looking at the question of the consequences of the abolition of corporal punishment, which will not come back. I am firmly on that side. We are looking at the consequences and how discipline can be maintained, bearing in mind of course that society is changing and that the old constraints which ensured discipline are being eroded as much at that level as in the adult population. I will be consulting with various interest groups and I am particularly anxious to hear the view of parents. I hope that in a couple of months I will be in a position to advance a firm view as to what we might introduce.

Deputy Brennan spoke with some vehemence on the industry-education links and he was not altogether consistent. He indicated that he thought we were wasting our resources by educating graduates who went abroad and that we were not getting a return for our money. It is hardly a waste to educate our people to go abroad and make a good living in the expectation, bearing historical evidence in mind, that many will return and act as entrepreneurs and catalysts for industrial development here. That is not a waste and, as citizens of the State, they are entitled to participate in the educational system.

Deputy Brennan also mentioned the example of universities who quizzed their classes of final year students on their intentions, when 50 per cent said that they would emigrate and never return. I cannot imagine that a class of 22 or 23 year olds would be so definitive at that stage of their development that they could say they will never return. We are into a new and more mobile age and Deputy Brennan did not seem to be aware of the already detailed and advanced links between industry and higher education. Each of the higher university level institutes has a definite link with industry, which is expanding. In Galway they now have small industries producing products on the campus. This came about as a result of university research and they employ graduates. The micro electronic centre in Cork is well known and there is also the Plassey Park in Limerick beside NIHE. UCD, Trinity and NIHE, Dublin, all have sophisticated links with industry. In UCD there is a very advanced experiment in relation to building. All this is going to get a fillip from the Connacht programme to which I referred when this national industry university link is expanding into the European scene. So I am not at all pessimistic as Deputy Brennan was about getting good value from our educational system.

The thrust in recent years has been to educate our graduates to take advantage of more high-flown and high-powered commercial practices and new technology. I am satisfied that the training our people are getting is good and our graduates are at least the equals and, in many instances, the superiors of their European counterparts. I was at a meeting of the Council of Ministers in The Hague some weeks ago and the chairman of a huge Dutch firm, Phillips, employing a total of 250,000 people worldwide indicated in his address to the Ministers that he was critical of his own country's system in not producing graduates for his firm; he mentioned that they had to go abroad to recruit graduates in Ireland, Belgium and Taiwan. So obviously at that high level of sophistication our educational system is able to turn out graduates able to command highly paid jobs in a highly skilled area.

Some of them may decide to make their life in another European country. Some may decide to come back to Ireland and make their life here. But certainly Irish education has responded to the needs of an emerging economy in a highly technological age and has responded adequately and handsomely. Much of the dramatic expansion in the electronic area that has taken place in recent years has been due to one principal fact, the availability of high quality Irish graduates to work in those areas. So Deputy Brennan was being unduly pessimistic about the contribution which our educational system is making and about its quality. I would not share his pessimism at all and the results are there to prove it.

I share Deputy O'Rourke's concern on the question of illiteracy. I should indicate to her that, from conversing with my European colleagues, I know that illiteracy is a problem that affects all western countries. We might be inclined to think here that it is something affecting us only, resulting from a failure of our system. But there are serious and worrying problems of illiteracy in all European countries. Whatever phenomenon causes people to slip through the net, we are not the only ones to suffer from it. Other countries have adult programmes to deal with it as well; they are conscious of the need to deal with it as totally and as adequately as possible.

Deputy O'Rourke mentioned the transition year. This is the first year for what is a novel experiment and we have had about 200 applications from all over the country. Roughly 50 per cent of those have been sanctioned to proceed. The remainder are not getting sanction this year. There may be one or two adjustments before final decisions are made mainly because the programme envisaged was inadequate in the view of the inspectorate. It is very important that a new experiment, a fairly drastic experiment, should get off on a proper footing so that the schools engaging in this experiment will have a totally satisfactory experience and be able to recommend it to their colleagues and thereby encourage other schools to participate next year. This year is a learning year both for the inspectorate and my Department who have the heavy responsibility of overseeing this very important and new experiment.

I would not be very disappointed or worried that, (a) the numbers who came in were comparatively small or, (b) the numbers found adequate were even smaller. What is important is to ensure that from day one the quality of the transition year is right and that it becomes accepted as a desirable thing with all schools becoming enthusiastic about it. It is absolutely important to have it right from day one. It has been our objective to have quality this year rather than quantity. I think I am right in that because the transition year, if it works this year, will be with us forever and we will have lots of opportunities to increase the quantity in years to come when we are satisfied that we have got the programmes correct.

Deputy Fitzgerald asked about the present position concerning the inner city community college. I understand that bills of quantity and documents of tender have been received in the Department and are at present being examined. I want to assure the Deputy that there will be no avoidable delay in bringing this to the final stage which will be the authorisation of the invitation of tenders.

Deputy O'Rourke had a lot of figures concerning capital and comparing one year with another. I did not take a careful note because when one gets into figures they can keep rattling out. Deputy O'Rourke said that in the primary vote there was a downturn this year over last year. One of the reasons was that there was an overrun last year — there is always an explanation for figures. The overrun last year means that more was spent last year than normally would have been. Consequently this year's figures would appear, by contrast, to be down. The point is that over the two years, 1985 and 1986, the total provision is as set out in the national plan. That is the important thing, that there has been no drop off from the national plan. Again, the capital provision in the post-primary Vote includes provision for third level colleges operated under the VEC's that is, the RTCs and technological colleges. There was a saving of some £7 million in 1985 in the expenditure on new RTCs because that expenditure did not arise as soon as possible, but this will occur in 1986 so between one year and another the amount to be spent on capital will be as in the national plan.

It is appropriate that I should finish on the question of money because the Department of Education, like any other Department, have to deal with limited resources and it is a question of allocating these resources in the most equitable and effective way possible. This is always the dilemma of Ministers in every Department and it is particularly acute in the Department of Education where there are so many worthwhile competing demands on limited resources. At primary level there is the need for more remedial teachers; there are demands in the disadvantaged areas; in the post-primary area we now have the transition year and there is a huge volume of students coming into third level education. All in all we have got the mix right. In conclusion, I should like to thank Deputies once again for their helpful contributions.

Question put, and a division being demanded, it was postponed in accordance with Standing Order of the Dáil, No. 123, as modified by Order of the House, until 8.30 p.m. on Wednesday, 18 June 1986.
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