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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 19 Jun 1986

Vol. 368 No. 3

Estimates, 1986. - Vote 40: Agriculture (Revised Estimate).

I move:

That a sum not exceeding £223,905,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of December, 1986, for the salaries and expenses of the Office of the Minister for Agriculture, including certain services administered by that Office, and of the Irish Land Commission, and for payment of certain subsidies and sundry grants-in-aid.

The major challenge confronting farmers in 1985 was that of maintaining their incomes in a difficult environment. They experienced very serious adverse effects of unfavourable weather conditions, and this is a reminder of the extent to which farming is still at the mercy of the elements.

These adverse effects were reflected in agricultural output and farm incomes. In the period 1980 to 1984, gross agricultural output increased by almost 19 per cent in volume terms while average real farm income per head rose by about one-third. At the same time real incomes outside agriculture were generally either stagnant or in decline. However, 1985 brought a reversal in this trend. As a result of the bad weather gross agricultural output fell by 1.6 per cent in volume terms and this, combined with changes in prices and a small increase in the volume of inputs of materials and services used on farms, led to a 10 per cent drop in family farm incomes in 1985. Even so, average real farm incomes per head were better last year than in the preceding years of the eighties, apart from 1984. This shows that one should not view the overall situation merely in terms of those who undoubtedly were badly affected by last year's bad weather.

There have been some suggestions of a further fall in farm incomes this year. The weather in recent months has, of course, been particularly unfavourable but it is far too early to make any reliable predictions about the outcome for the year. A good summer could bring an improvement over last year in the returns from crop production, while an improvement in fodder supplies would help the winter feed situation. Obviously some farmers are encountering severe difficulties at present but at this stage one cannot forecast the overall outcome for 1986 for Irish agriculture.

As a race we are only too glad to forecast bad results. It is a national characteristic. I am glad to say that the improvement in the weather over the past ten days has done a world of good. It is better than any subsidy that I or the Government could give and it has brought about a tremendous change. I am always blamed for bad weather but I am never praised for good weather.

The Minister never looks for praise.

I would not get it anyway. Despite the restrictions imposed by the EC, the uncertainty in relation to the Common Agricultural Policy and the generally difficult world markets for many farm products, I would still hope to see a recovery in farm output and incomes this year. Furthermore, the declines in interest rates and inflation together with the significant drop in oil prices will create an environment that should help towards restoring the pattern of growth of agricultural output and farm incomes that we had in the first half of this decade.

Despite the drop in agricultural output in 1985, agricultural exports last year exceeded £1,670 million, an increase of some £40 million on the 1984 figure. The growth came largely from a volume increase, particularly in beef. When combined with estimated FEOGA guarantee section receipts of some £835 million, which are largely dependent on the level of exports, the contribution of agricultural exports to our balance of payments position last year was about £2,500 million, a staggering figure. This is a record both in value and in volume terms and is particularly welcome because of the low import content in agricultural exports.

I have already spoken in considerable detail in the House on the EC prices package for 1986-87. While the belt tightening aspects of that settlement are of course unwelcome, they are being borne by all the member states and they constitute an attempt to get the various agricultural markets back into a healthy trading situation. Success in that endeavour would be of major advantage to this country. It would be very much to our advantage if the surpluses which are at present so considerable could be got rid of or drastically reduced as soon as possible.

The very serious problems for Community agriculture which formed the background to this year's negotiations were described in detail by the European Commission in their Green Paper of July 1985. The Commission gave notice of how they meant to tackle those problems in their subsequent guidelines document entitled A Future for Community Agriculture and in related policy documents and proposals. The Commission noted in particular the existence of serious surplus and budget problems. These problems would not just go away. They had to be tackled and this country, for which the market unity and financial solidarity of the CAP are so important, had a greater interest in tackling and solving them perhaps any other member state.

Our analysis of the causes of these problems did not coincide with the Commission's views on all points. For example, we have maintained that the current large stocks of beef constitute essentially a short term supply problem stemming from temporarily heavy cow slaughterings in the Community as a result of the milk super-levy. In this regard, we succeeded in averting the drastic proposals on intervention which had been made by the Commission. That point is not understood or acknowledged by very many people.

The Commission proposed in this year's price package that there should be no possibility of intervention for carcase beef in the autumn. One does not need a great deal of imagination to realise what would happen to cattle prices in that event. We are given very little credit for being the country which stopped that from happening. It would have meant a crisis in the beef industry. I cannot guarantee that it will not happen in the future.

There is a crisis in the beef industry.

There is not. There would be a real crisis if prices were reduced by a considerable amount and that would have happened if there were no possibility of full carcase intervention in the autumn. The possibility is still there and I am hoping we will convince the Commission that it must be retained. They wanted to eliminate any possibility of full carcase intervention. Instead, the present rules are to continue unchanged for this year and there is to be a review of the system by December next. We think that by then there may be greater evidence to support our analysis of the situation. We want the Commission to adjust their proposals for beef so as to provide for the continuation of realistic and clearly defined intervention support arrangements.

In other words, we are saying to the Commission that we think the beef mountain, and the problems in the beef industry, are temporary and are largely due to the killing of cows as a result of the milk super-levy. We are saying that, given a year or two, we will get rid of that beef surplus.

We also sought in the Council discussions to have greater account taken of other broad aspects such as the levels of farm incomes and the varying production and marketing conditions in the different regions of the Community. We persuaded the Commission to make a fairly substantial green rate adjustment for this country, the result representing a gain of about £75 million a year for the Irish agricultural sector. Also, the most stringent aspects of proposed quality standards for cereals for intervention, which we maintained were unrelated to the needs of regional markets, were adjusted by the Commission.

It is important to note that the milk quota reductions apply to all member states and that we accordingly retain in full the quota advantage relative to other member states which we achieved in the 1984 negotiations. That advantage is approximately 20 per cent. As regards the quota reduction to be made here over the next three years, I am confident that the compensatory payments under the voluntary scheme will be attractive enough to induce a sufficient number of farmers, particularly farmers nearing retirement age or without dependents, to leave production. A successful scheme of this nature will make compulsory acrossthe-board cuts unnecessary. I am confident that there will be sufficient people prepared to give up milk production voluntarily thereby averting the possibility of having to make compulsory cuts.

There are now over a million tonnes of butter in intervention and these are having a very depressing effect on the international butter market. Also, it has to be recognised that consumer preferences and habits are changing, and we must provide for this. Now that I have negotiated as part of the prices package the restoration of FEOGA investment aid for certain milk processing projects, it will be easier for the milk processing industry here to intensify their efforts to develop new products and to become more market-orientated.

The butter surplus is a very serious problem with more than one million tonnes in intervention. That amount is increasing rather than decreasing. The amount of butter that went into intervention in 1985 was a record. It is unfortunate that butter consumption is dropping, primarily because there has been medical advice that it gives rise to certain health hazards. That advice may not be true but the trend is that people are switching to other products.

Overall this year's price package has been one of mixed fortunes for all the member states including ourselves, but looked at in a longer perspective it represents a step towards solving very real problems facing Community agriculture. As of now, we are heavily dependent on the Community support systems for our agricultural production. That is why I put so much effort into safeguarding the vital elements of those systems, but it is clear that both farmers and processors will have to become more market-orientated and much less dependent on Community support.

That is the direction in which other food production countries have gone, and it is the only direction that holds out hope of real and lasting prosperity for our agricultural sector. Help is available for those who have the will to adapt, and more is likely to be available in the future. For instance, the Council also agreed to take new action at an early date on the social and structural aspects of agriculture. That is a development which I welcomed.

The money countries, the countries that keep the CAP going financially are getting fed up with having to pay for huge surpluses. They see that as wasteful and they want to erode the support systems such as intervention which we have been utilising more than anybody else proportionately. Therein lies a real danger to agriculture here. We must be able to sell our produce on the open market and not be resorting continuously to intervention. To be selling most of what we produce into intervention is an ill-advised path to travel. Not alone would we be safeguarding ourselves by selling on the open market in the event of those supports being cut but farmers would get a better price for their produce. That is one of the reasons why continental farmers get better prices for their produce than Irish farmers.

Of course, there are parts of the prices settlement that we would have preferred to avoid, but there has never been a prices package in which an Irish Minister for Agriculture, or any other Minister for Agriculture for that matter, got everything he sought. The results were, from Ireland's point of view, the best that could have been obtained and, all in all, the package provides a sizeable net benefit to our agriculture.

To deal with the Estimate itself, the gross sum is £365 million which is about £11 million or 3 per cent above the amount spent in 1985. However, as receipts also are projected to rise by about £11 million the net estimate of £224 million is similar to the amount spent in 1985. The main increases in expenditure are for the 1985 weather damage relief measures which were paid early this year, the farm improvement programme, western measures and market intervention. The main decreases relate to food subsidies, the calved heifer scheme, disease eradication and exchange rate guarantees. The principal items giving rise to the higher receipts are EC contributions in respect of market intervention and the disadvantaged areas schemes.

While the food subsidies are included in the Estimate for the Department of Agriculture they do not affect that Estimate; they could be in the Estimate for any Department. With regard to the farm improvement programme I should like to state that it is a new edition of the old farm modernisation scheme. The calf heifer scheme has been done away with. It was introduced for a three year period to try to increase the national herd but there is no evidence to indicate that there was an increase as a result of the scheme. Farmers received £70 for every extra heifer but that did not encourage people to increase their herds.

If we did not have that scheme what would the position be?

The evidence is that the scheme did not increase the national herd by even one animal. Disease eradication is a very thorny question. We would need about £4.5 million more to carry out the same intensive programme of testing in 1986 as we did in 1985 and I am still hopeful of getting that money by savings elsewhere in the Estimate. If we continue the level of testing which commenced in June 1985 I am confident we will eliminate bovine TB as far as is practicable within two years. The progress made last year was dramatic and I do not intend to let that progress slip.

I should like to point out that between the increase in headage grants for beef cows and the extension of the disadvantaged areas scheme we are providing in the region of £18 million extra this year. Some people are critical when piddling schemes are done away with. Schemes are introduced for a certain length of time, not for an eternity. They are introduced to give a boost to a certain sector and, when it is felt that they have served their purpose, they are discontinued. We are criticised for discontinuing some schemes that cost a few million pounds but people conveniently ignore the fact that this year we will be spending £17 million or £18 million extra in disadvantaged areas by increasing the rate of payment for beef cows and spending a considerable amount of money in the parts of the country that are either seriously or moderately handicapped.

Of course, the gross estimate of £365 millions represents only part of the total amount spent by my Department. For 1985 this overall sum amounted to about £1,555 million including some £790 million of expenditure fully funded by the EC in respect of agricultural support measures and about £400 million borrowed by my Department for intervention purchases of beef, butter, skim milk powder and cereals.

I should now like to deal with some of the main agricultural products. During 1985 cattle output increased by 1.1 per cent in volume terms. Exports of cattle and beef and by-products amounted to £1,025 million. This was more than 10 per cent above the 1984 level and represented 10 per cent of total national exports. Slaughterings at meat factories were up by 12 per cent on 1984. During the year there was a further and welcome increase in the exports of beef in processed form. In particular, exports of vacuum-packed beef increased by 12 per cent over the 1984 level and now account for approximately 10 per cent of total beef exports. A particularly encouraging aspect was the increases of 30 per cent and 20 per cent respectively in the level of vacuum-packed exports to the UK and Continental markets. In reports on the beef industry these markets have consistently been identified as those where our long term interests lie, and, of course, they are free from the risks associated with exports to third countries.

It made interesting reading in the newspapers today to see that EC experts who came here to examine our meat plants came to the conclusion that the standard of our beef processing plants here was as good as — and better than most — any plants in Europe. Therefore, when I hear criticism of our progress in food processing I regard it as most unfair that people cannot see the positive side. Our beef processing is the largest part of our meat industry and it is second to none. Progress in the past five years has been tremendous. Our beef processing industry is a credit to the country.

What about the beef producers and the profitability?

The more we process our product the better the price will be. It must be remembered that instead of exporting cattle on the hoof the vast bulk of our beef exports are processed and it is becoming more and more profitable. Last year there was an increase of 40 per cent over 1984.

Yet the producer lost money.

When we entered the EEC in 1973, 70 per cent of our beef was exported live. The percentage now is between 10 and 12. Some plants sell nearly everything they produce in the EC. There is great uncertainty about third countries and as supports lessen those markets become less lucrative. People are much safer selling within the EC.

Having regard to the background against which they were conducted, the outcome of the price negotiations with regard to beef was quite satisfactory. While there was a theoretical price standstill, the green rate change coupled with the final stage of transition to the beef grid ensured an average increase in support prices of 4 per cent, and indeed as much as 5.6 per cent for the better qualities of cattle. We also retained the calf premium, the special supplementary suckler cow premium for Ireland, and the Irish entitlement to the variable premium payable in Britain. All in all, these are worth more than £30 million.

An important consequence of this year's developments is that there are now identical support prices for identical qualities of beef in every member state apart from the two new member countries. This removes a long-standing anomaly and creates the conditions which favour the production of leaner, betterconformed cattle from now on. Until 1984 intervention buying-in prices were based on a system of coefficients which varied widely from one member state to another — with ours very near the bottom, even for the best quality. Since 1984 we have been harmonising these prices — in our case upwards, in the case of some other countries sharply downwards. That process is now complete and, as I have already said, there are now the same support prices for the same qualities of beef throughout the entire Community, except in the two new member states of Spain and Portugal.

The Council agreement on beef runs to 31 December next. There are important issues to be settled before then. The Commission had proposed a radical reorganisation of the beef market support system over a short period of time. If this had been agreed to it would have had serious consequences for Irish producers. The main element was the proposed dismantling of intervention and the disposal of current intervention stocks by November 1987. After that date intervention would only be used as a last resort at the discretion of the Commission, in conditions to be determined by the Commission.

As compensation for the loss of intervention the Commission had proposed a system of annual premia for specialised beef producers, including continuance of the suckler cow premium. I stressed at the Council of Ministers meeting the special position of the Irish beef industry: the fact that we have the lowest beef prices, the largest surplus, the greatest seasonality problem, the largest Third Country trade in beef, and the most vulnerable price structure.

The Commission proposals were withdrawn for further consideration and for decision before December next. I will be doing my utmost to ensure that whatever emerges will support the Irish market effectively at all times and will not give rise to distortions within the beef chain, with windfall gains at one point and unacceptable losses at another. I am sceptical that a better overall market support than intervention, judiciously managed, is to be found. We will, however, have to examine all the options on the table at the time.

The decision by Canada to impose a countervailing duty on beef imports from the Community pending the outsome of an investigation tribunal has been a blow to some of our exporters. This market had developed as a useful outlet for cow beef from this country in 1984, when exports of more than 17,000 tonnes took place. Following complaints by the Canadian Cattlemen's Association, a Community quota of 10,668 tonnes was finally arranged for 1985, out of which Ireland exported almost 8,000 tonnes. Following discussions, the Community agreed with the Canadian Government to continue the quota for 1986. However, because of a further complaint by the Canadian Cattlemen's Association, the Canadian Government had to suspend this arrangement and impose countervailing duties pending the outcome of an import tribunal. This is a GATT issue and discussions must be conducted by the Commission on behalf of the whole Community. I have been pressing for a speedy resolution of the matter.

In 1985 CBF published a five-year plan outlining the strategy which that body intends to pursue in the period 1986 to 1990. The task of marketing Irish cattle, sheep, beef, mutton and lamb is an enormous one and CBF have sought phased increases in funding over the period of the programme. The Government have displayed their commitment to the board's work by providing a grant-in-aid of some £1.1 million for the year 1986 — an increase of nearly 40 per cent compared with 1985. I have also increased the levies payable to CBF from 70p to £1 on cattle and 7p to 10p on sheep.

To achieve successful marketing in the present day it is essential that we produce a top quality product. I have said this before and I make no apology for reiterating it. The first necessity is that our farmers produce prime quality animals, free from disease and without residues of veterinary medicinal products or other substances which might prove hazardous to human health. Both on home and on export markets consumers are becoming more conscious of the possibilities of residues in food products generally, and are anxious to avoid even the remotest possibility of danger. My Department are at present expanding their programme of testing meat for residues. A few months ago I opened a new meat control laboratory at Abbotstown which contains some of the most sophisticated equipment available anywhere for residue testing. It is important that we have meat that is conclusively free of residues. Continentals in particular are very health conscious where food products are concerned and it is essential that our meat be marketed on the basis that it is entirely fresh and from a drug-free environment.

The various measures for the improvement of the genetic merit of our livestock were continued by my Department during 1985. Inseminations by the AI service at 1,186,000 in 1985 were down somewhat on 1984, with beef breeds accounting for 60 per cent of the total as against 40 per cent for dairy breeds. By the end of 1985 a total of 186 licences had been issued to herd owners to carry out DIY-AI under the arrangements which I had introduced in 1984.

I am under pressure from two sources with regard to DIY-AI. There is one source of pressure coming from farming groups throughout the country who want the right to carry out this service on a free-for-all basis. At present a farmer can only operate the service on his own herd but there has been an increasing number of requests from people to operate it freely: in other words, they want to work for other people.

On the other hand, there is pressure from the unions who want the system to remain as in the past: in other words, they want the stations to control all the AI servicing. I can see advantages in opening up the system because I think it would lead to a cheaper service for farmers at the end of the day. However, the unions want to protect the interests of their members. There is a delicate balancing act in operation at the moment but I am considering certain measures I shall disclose at a later date.

In 1985 the Control of Bulls for Breeding Act was passed by the Oireachtas. Regulations at present being drafted will provide inter alia that for a period of three years beef suckler herd owners with 20 cows or less may use good quality nonpedigree beef bulls which have passed inspection by officers of my Department.

Since the end of 1985 my Department have ceased to provide a direct milk recording service and full responsibility for the provision of the service throughout the country has developed on the Irish Dairy Records Co-operative which is representative of creamery co-operatives, milk boards and AI stations. I have provided £450,000 under subhead CI to finance this revised milk recording service. Some 115,000 cows were milk recorded in 1985 — double the figure recorded in 1979 — but the level of milk recording here is still low by international standards. However, I am confident that the Irish Dairy Records Co-operative will generate a continued expansion in the level of milk recording in coming years.

Last year my Department imported a number of top-class rams of the Suffolk, Blackface Mountain, Border Leicester and Blueface Leicester breeds for leasing to selected breeders of high quality flocks. This enables pedigree breeders to improve the genetic potential of their flocks, and progeny from those flocks in turn helps to improve commercial flocks. Further importations are planned for this year. In addition, my Department imported 50 Blueface Leicesters and 20 Border Leicester rams last year for leasing to a number of producer groups to provide prolific crossbred ewes for sale to lowland farmers. This project is now in its third year and groups have been established in most of the major hill areas. The continued development of the producer group strategy is essential if the lowland producer is to have available a supply of prolific replacement ewes.

Developments in the milk sector have a major bearing on the agricultural economy. Despite the very bad weather, 1985 was a relatively good year for milk. I mean this in the overall context: it was very good in the south and not quite so good in the north. The volume of output increased by 2 per cent and prices to the producer were 3 per cent higher. Despite the difficulties on international markets and despite the quota regime, milk production remains an attractive enterprise and is well suited to conditions in this country. The gross margins from dairying compare more than favourably with those available from other lines of farming, and the demand for quotas and the keenness among young farmers to enter dairying reinforce the point.

The improving economic environment, and in particular falling production costs and interest rates, will assist the individual dairy farmer in the year ahead. It is obvious that the industry has come to terms with the operation of the quota system and that most of the teething problems have been resolved. The direction for the individual producer must be to produce the quota in the most efficient and cost effective way possible. We have inherent natural advantages in regard to milk production and we must capitalise on these. It is often ignored that we have the natural advantage of grass for most of the year.

The outcome of this year's price negotiations on milk was a matter of some controversy at the time. Now that the dust has settled and the critics have had time to reflect, I think they realise that the best deal possible was secured and that the correct decision was taken. When I travel round the country meeting farming groups and individual farmers, I am gratified at the understanding of people with regard to the situation in Brussels. An intelligent view is taken of the matter and some of the people who make noises are not reading the situation correctly. There is an appreciation that what is happening in Brussels is difficult, both from the point of view of the budget and surpluses. It is realised we cannot continue to produce products ad nauseam when we cannot get rid of them.

I emphasise that the outcome of the talks represented a significant improvement on the initial proposals. Further delay would have meant that the peak milk output would not have benefited from the price increase and this would have cost the industry more than £1 million per week. Apart from that, I do not think further discussions or delay would have improved the proposals; in fact, the reverse would probably have happened. We know only too well from past experience in Community affairs that postponing the inevitable usually means that more drastic action has to be taken in the end. If we had a super-levy system introduced some six or seven years ago, probably we would not have such a drastic quota system nowadays. However, the whole business was allowed to get out of hand and, consequently, the cure had to be more severe.

Comparisons have been made between this year's proposals and proposals put forward by the Commission in earlier years. Such comparisons are meaningless as the circumstances have changed so considerably. We have to deal with the situation as it is now in 1986, not as we would wish it to be or as it was some years ago. For quite some time the milk sector has been bedevilled by chronic surpluses and very poor international markets. New technology has facilitated ever-increasing levels of output both at farm and at processing level. Countries which were traditionally importers of dairy products are now self-sufficient, if not net exporters. Many of the regular markets for bulk dairy products have financial problems because of the drop in oil prices. Consumer demands have shifted away from traditional dairy products, and the modern consumer is more critical, more fickle and less loyal. It is clear that some re-orientation in the Community's milk policy is needed.

At the behest of Bord Bainne I visited last week one of our best customers for milk powder, namely, Mexico. After the EC it is our best customer for milk. We export approximately £38 million-£40 million worth of skimmed milk powder to that country each year. The intensity of the competition is a little frightening. On that trip I discovered that other countries are selling heavily into the Mexican market and we are finding it very difficult to hold our proportion of that market. I must compliment Bord Bainne on the strenuous efforts they are making which have been successful so far.

We lost that market one year early in the eighties, and we had a reduced proportion another year, but I am glad to say we are back to our maximum level.

I was surprised to find that there were five other countries heavily involved in that market. The United States, Canada, New Zealand and the United Kingdom, all have a large segment of that market. When we joined the Community the United Kingdom had a deficit where milk production was concerned but now we are in competition with the United Kingdom on these export markets. Imagine finding them being strongly represented in Mexico. Recently the French entered that market. The competition is red hot and we have been knocked out of a number of markets in Latin America in particular because of the intensive competition. This is all due to the over-production of milk.

It is far preferable to have a milk policy which is effective and relevant to current market conditions rather than one hampered by large surpluses. When we joined the Community our aspiration was the possibility of access to large consumer markets; these consumer markets are still there. One of the compelling arguments for restoring balance in the milk sector is to allow commercial markets to function normally and effectively. This is the best basis for protecting the future of our dairy industry. Apart from the proposed cessation scheme, other action is needed to restore balance. In particular, measures will have to be taken to reduce the large stocks of intervention butter which have impeded any possibility of recovery in the commercial butter market. The Commission have indicated that they will reduce stocks over a three year period and I will be insisting that this programme is adhered to.

I have already referred to sheep meat, the importation of top class rams and the necessity to produce sheepmeat suitable for the French market.

Will the Minister say something about the pig industry?

The pig industry is going through a particularly difficult period at the moment, but these problems are not confined to this country. All over Europe severe problems are being experienced by people in this industry. My Danish colleagues told me as late as two weeks ago that their producers are experiencing great difficulty on the export markets. There are several reasons for these problems. The first is the considerable over-supply of pigmeat on world markets and an additional difficulty for European producers is the weakness of the American dollar which makes American and Canadian exports of pigmeat more competitive than they were up to now. We are not the only country suffering. The other traditional pigmeat exporting countries in Europe are also having severe difficulties.

The biggest difficulty in this country lies with the structure of our pig industry. The quality of our pigs is as good as anywhere in the world. We have some of the best pig breeders in the world but the factories, the processors, the structures are not good enough and if we do not recognise that fact we cannot improve the industry. In the last two days I had talks with three major industries in the pig industry and each is anxious to avail of the new grants which we got in Europe within the last month.

Up to now people in the disadvantaged areas could get a FEOGA grant of 50 per cent for setting up a bacon factory, and theoretically a 25 per cent grant from the IDA. In the areas which were not disadvantaged, that is in the east of the country, a person could only get a 25 per cent grant from FEOGA and possibly as much as a 25 per cent grant from the IDA. Now a person can get a 50 per cent grant from FEOGA in any part of the country and a 25 per cent grant from the IDA. That will give a tremendous impetus to the pig industry.

The three groups I met are interested in updating their factories. What we need is a restructuring, a rationalisation and modernisation of the pigmeat industry. While this industry is experiencing difficulty at the moment, it is nice to see that people have the confidence to invest considerable sums in it. As I said, it was very reassuring to have three major groups coming to me in the last two days, and I know a fourth is also anxious to invest a considerable amount of money.

Will the Minister help to bring about the rationalisation of the industry?

The new grants system which we have been promised from Europe is a fantastic step forward and the IDA are very anxious to assist. While the industry is facing temporary difficulties, I see much better times ahead.

As regard cereals we had a difficulty because of the Community's price cutting policy. I appreciate that people in this industry had difficulties but again it is a case of vast over-supply — 15 million tonnes in intervention. I would not like to under-estimate the extent of the problem, but we provided Euro loans and I hope they will be availed of in a matter of days. There is £100 million for people in the winter beet production, cereal growers, and a smaller portion for small milk producers, and £35 million for people who get into new enterprises which produce commodities that are not in surplus in the Community at present. That money will be of considerable benefit.

If I think the fodder situation will be critical in the coming winter, I will take steps to alleviate the hardship which may ensue. I have made contingency plans and luckily the weather over the last few days has eased the situation considerably. Nevertheless, there may be a need for a scheme to provide assistance and I will monitor the situation as the summer progresses.

(Limerick West): In the time at my disposal it would be impossible to cover all the different agricultural sectors. Therefore, I will confine my remarks to certain areas and my colleagues will cover specific areas.

This is one of the most important Estimates to come before the Dáil this year. As a farmer, a public representative and spokesman on Agriculture for the main Opposition party, I will make my comments as constructive as possible. We are dealing with the country's single most important industry. If agriculture fails all else fails. There are very few people in the country who would disagree with such a statement but unfortunately this Government must be counted among the few.

I am sorry to say that their treatment of agriculture shows every sign that they do not regard agriculture as the mainstay of the economy. Since they took office cut-backs in the provision for agriculture have been a regular feature. I wish to take issue with the Minister on a number of areas which I will go into later where cut-backs have taken place and where he has given as an excuse for withdrawing schemes that they had outlived their usefulness. I would like to point out a few. I cannot see how the AI subsidy scheme could have outlived its usefulness. As a result of the withdrawal of the lime subsidy scheme there was widespread unemployment affecting major lime quarries, and the use of lime on the farm has reduced substantially. The calved heifer scheme was very important in increasing our beef cow numbers. I cannot see how that scheme has outlived its usefulness.

The farm modernisation scheme was suspended by the Government in February 1983 a few months after they took office. Surely that scheme has not outlived its usefulness. It is not right for the Minister to come in here this evening and say that schemes which have been withdrawn because of the cut-backs in agriculture by this Government have outlived their usefulness. The Minister is deluding himself but he is not deluding this party, the country, the farmers or the farming organisations.

Nowhere has there been any sign of a determination to build the industry up, to give it confidence and, above all, to show it leadership. In the past week in this House it was said truly that the Government have retreated from agriculture. Nowhere was there greater proof of that Government's lack of care for and interest in agriculture than in the events which led up to last week's debate following the motion put down by this party on the crisis in agriculture. In the course of that debate it became clear, if ever it was clear over the past three and a half years, that the Government had put agriculture in a very secondary place indeed. The statement we have just heard from the Minister shows without doubt that the shadow of an uncaring and uncommitted Government lies over the country's most important basic industry. I would say that the very notice of the Fianna Fáil motion debated last week galvanised the Minister into some action. For weeks it had been clear to anybody with any interest in agriculture that the crisis was growing in intensity. Grass growth was up to six weeks behind time. Fodder supplies were disastrously poor. Farmers were sinking further and further into debt. The situation over the past year is well known to the Dáil. I do not wish to spend my time describing again how bad it was and how bad it still remains despite the improvement in the weather over the past few days. However, it took weeks to awaken the Minister to this and only when the Fianna Fáil alarm bells rang did he open his eyes and see the real position, then it was a mad rush into action.

The Minister made a public announcement that he had that week visited some of the worst hit areas. However, the statement did not indicate when the Minister began his visits, how long they lasted or what areas he visited. We were told that he had increased the grants for silage and that there would be immediate discussions with ACOT and ICOS to arrange a co-ordinated approach to maximise fodder supplies for next winter. I agree fully with that and with the belated increase in silage grants which miserable though it is, will in some way be of help.

However, I want to stress the apparent lack of interest and concern on the Minister's part over the past many weeks — indeed, many months — when it was very clear to everybody that the farming sector was in the middle of an emergency, yet we had total lack of action and commitment by the Minister and by the Government. At that time the Minister should have been with the EC Commission requesting assistance and financial help to overcome this disaster. He failed miserably in this respect. An example from him was how the German Government helped their farmers in their emergency. I suppose at the same time that the Minister, and no doubt the Government, have other matters in mind. Must we wait until after 27 June before the Government and their busy Ministers will find time to pay attention to the economic situation in this country including the crisis in agriculture? When we debated the agriculture crisis last week we heard from the Minister and from one of his Ministers of State, Deputy Connaughton, a great amount of information that did everything but deal with the crisis. We were told what the crisis was about, what they had done in 1984 and 1985. I pointed out that those days were gone and that the crisis was immediate and we wanted immediate action. All we got from the Minister and the Minister of State at that time was waffling. Meanwhile farmers' organisations are asking for serious Government action to give back confidence and leadership to the industry.

Farmers have now realised very clearly that the only body in the country who can be relied upon to defend their interests are the Fianna Fáil Party. This has not happened just today or yesterday. Our record in agriculture over the years is a clear example of this party's total commitment to progress and to ensuring that the prosperity of agriculture will continue. Our record is there for everybody to see. For three and a half years we have had a Government who turned their back on agriculture. We were assured last week by one of the Ministers of State for Agriculture that the Government had not turned their back on agriculture. For the sake of the industry I wish that this was the case.

Over many years, since successive Governments tried to build up manufacturing and service industries, from time to time there have been unfortunate and serious failures. The result has been unemployment and wasted resources and the cost of trying to repair the damage has been very high. The situation in regard to agriculture is more serious than it has ever been. I do not wish to go over again and again the ground which other Fianna Fáil Members and I covered in last week's debate, but it must be said that this important Estimate is being debated at the end of a year of disastrous weather conditions for farmers which began in mid-summer 1985 and continued up to the beginning of this month. The improved weather of recent days has given hope but the Minister should not run away with the idea that a few days of sunshine will remove his obligations to farmers. I join with the Minister in advising farmers to put every effort into making sure that they do everything they possibly can to build up stocks of fodder for the coming year, because, clearly, there is everything to be said in favour of more silage. I hope that we will be given suitable weather conditions to do this.

After the disastrous year, the Minister has a more than ordinary obligation to exert himself in the cause of agriculture. All over the country farmers are burdened by excessive debt and are in need of moral encouragement and material help. They are wondering what the Government's attitude is towards agriculture. It is not only the unfortunate small farmers of the west, the north-west and the Shannon basin but farmers all over the country, especially those on moderately size holdings, who are very worried and concerned about their future and that of their families and farms. They look to the Minister for hope, leadership and confidence. I sincerely hope that they will not look in vain. They are not only concerned about their survival for the year ahead but about whether they will be able to continue in farming. They wonder what the Government will do and suspect that it will be little or nothing. I have no doubt that the great majority of these farmers are looking forward, as the great majority of the rest of the people are, to a change of Government. The sooner the better so far as agriculture is concerned.

We have heard a lot recently about the protection of the family farm in Europe in regard to the Common Agricultural Policy. We all attach great importance to that but we must also look at the protection of the farming family at home and at what the Government are doing for their protection within the Common Agricultural Policy. The Minister recently made a statement to the effect that farmers need not fear the passing of the divorce Bill because it would not create any problems in the area of succession. Unfortunately, Minister Deasy's grasp of this vital area is as superficial as his grasp of his agricultural brief. I do not want to go into the merits or demerits contained in the proposed constitutional amendment——

You may make a passing reference to the divorce Bill but that is all.

(Limerick West): If the amendment is passed it is bound to create problems for the family farm. The implications in regard to farms are enormous and worrying. I appreciate, a Chathaoirleach, that you have allowed me a certain latitude but I wish to deny what Deputy Deasy said quite recently in regard to the family farm, especially about the right of succession to it. What are the legal implications for a man who has worked on the farm all his life and who remarries? Whose rights would take priority, those of the first or second wife?

Acting Chairman

The laws of succession are not the concern of the Minister for Agriculture and they should not be raised on this debate. I allowed you to make a passing reference and I should be glad if you now continued your speech on the Estimate for Agriculture.

(Limerick West): Am I not allowed to talk about the protection of the family farm?

Acting Chairman

That is not the responsibility of the Minister for Agriculture.

(Limerick West): The Minister for Agriculture commented on this matter.

Acting Chairman

You made that comment and I cannot allow you to say any more about it.

(Limerick West): It is very worrying in so far as the continuation of the family farm is concerned. I do not want to see a dilutior of inheritance rights and it is important that should be protected. The Treaty of Rome laid great emphasis on the protection of the family farm. It is important to safeguard the basis of its protection not alone in this country but in Europe. I wish the Minister would stick to his brief as Minister for Agriculture and look after the farmers' interests. I am sticking to my brief.

Acting Chairman

The Minister speaks as a member of the Cabinet and can speak on general issues as well as on agriculture. But this Estimate is confined to Agriculture and I would be thankful if the Deputy would keep to the issues raised by the Minister in relation to agriculture.

(Limerick West): I presume I am allowed to comment on the Minister's inadequate approach to agriculture.

Acting Chairman

If it is on agriculture, yes.

(Limerick West): I hope I am allowed to say that I wish the Minister would stick to his brief rather than going into areas other than agriculture.

I can speak about anything I want to speak about.

Acting Chairman

I am sorry to get involved in this but I am just here to keep order.

(Limerick West): I accept that and I do not want to cause any problems for the Chair. The farmers and I would hope that in future the Minister will stick to his brief and cater for agriculture which is now in a crisis. That is all I want to say. I thank the Chair for bringing me back on the rails. It is important and you have done a very good job.

When I was introducing the Fianna Fáil motion last week I put forward three lines of action which I will repeat now for the benefit of the Minister of State, Deputy Connaughton. Just before he came in I said that he had given us no hope for the future.

(Limerick West): The Minister spoke about money and schemes but it is no thanks to the Minister of State that these schemes were introduced. The only thing he and his Minister did for agriculture was to withdraw a number of schemes. I would like to see an increase in value in the special schemes for lime, fertiliser and AI and I would like to see the headage payments increased in the disadvantaged areas.

I would also suggest that we introduce a Euro road scheme, big enough to meet the crisis we are facing, at a low rate of interest. The present scheme is too small, additions to the interest charges are too high and it is limited in its scope. All of this requires a serious approach to the EC. The Commission should be left in no doubt about the situation in Irish agriculture. The recent extension of the disadvantaged areas scheme in Germany is a blatant example of the misuse of Community rules. I know the Minister does not want to listen to it, but he will listen to it. The rich German Exchequer pays 75 per cent of the costs of the headage payment which German farmers will now get. This is a national aid and nothing else, and Ireland and other poorer states in the EC must resist this.

Ireland must demand full Community finances for all the measures to improve agricultural structures. Action on these lines by the Government should help to convince the banks and the financial institutions that they should be realistic in their attitude to farm indebtedness. They should know the effect conditions in agriculture are having on the value of land. I would like to hear the Minister's reply to those proposals. I assure this House that a Fianna Fáil Government would move immediately to take action along those lines. Such action would help to alleviate the immediate crisis. There is more to it than that. We need to look closely at the whole attitude of the EC and the Council of Ministers towards this country particularly for the development of our economy within the European system. A few months ago an Irish Minister voted for a package which the German Government voted against. That agreement has already been debated in the Dáil and I do not wish to go into the sad details.

I would point, however, to the extraordinary cave-in in regard to Ireland's milk quota. There is no point in the Minister saying we should do our share like all other countries. That is so but only if we were responsible for creating the problems. We should only do our share to the extent to which we caused the problems and the surpluses in Europe are not caused by Ireland's 4½ per cent or 5 per cent of milk production. That is a point which the Minister is missing and not putting forward to his colleagues in Europe. That the Council of Ministers and the Commission, with the agreement of the Irish Government, should have imposed this penalty on Ireland is totally unacceptable considering the agreement by the Council and the Commission in 1984 that there would be no further reduction in Ireland's milk quota. Again the Minister failed to comment on that earlier today.

Already in December 1985 when the Dáil was debating the agreement of the Heads of State which led to the Single European Act which it is hoped will lead more quickly to a complete internal market in the Community, the Leader of my party spoke about the need for Ireland to draw up a balance sheet of the advantages and disadvantages Ireland has gained since we joined the EC. Given what has happened to our milk quota there is a need for such a balance sheet which would show our European partners that the whole Irish economy, including agriculture, needs greater assistance than it is now getting.

There is no question whatsoever of a change in our attitude to membership of the EC. But, given the way the Common Agricultural Policy is now developing with serious losses since 1973 in our manufacturing industries, with 250,000 unemployed, there is need for a reappraisal of whether or not this country is being fairly delt with under the Treaty of Rome which provides for the development of the economies of the member states. This point has also been missed by the Minister and this Government. That is not to say we do not realise that this development also depends on our own internal efforts. The country need be in no doubt as to Fianna Fáil's attitude to agriculture. We look on the development of the industry as a major national interest basic to our whole economy and our whole social structure. In Government, we will rebuild the industry both on the farm and beyond the farm gate.

There is great scope for increasing added-value, bearing always in mind the importance of processing and providing what the market wants. At farm level we already have a most valuable blueprint, a four year plan for agriculture initiated by Deputy Lenihan when he was Minister. Unfortunately when this Government came into office, the dominant theme was not how the plan should be put into action but how to keep it out of sight and out of mind because it is an embarrassment to the Government with their cut-back policies on agriculture.

The Minister for Agriculture sent a letter on 16 March 1983 to the working group, which letter is published at the back of the report of the group. Time, unfortunately, does not allow me to quote all the letter, but I shall read parts of it:

I think it appropriate at this time to draw the attention of the Working Group, which is engaged on the preparation of the Four Year Plan for Agriculture, to the financial situation facing the Government.

He goes on further:

I understand that the work of this Group has progressed to the stage where it might expect to complete its report in the near future. It is important, therefore, that the Group should be fully cognisant of the current budgetary situation and the serious difficulties in the way of providing substantial additional Exchequer funds for any purpose.

I should be glad, therefore, if you would inform the members of the Working Group of the position so that they may have the opportunity to take full account of it in framing their final recommendations, and in considering how best the implementation of any such recommendations involving new expenditure could be financed...

The Government, therefore threw out this plan. I give assurance to the House this evening that my party, on return to Government, will act on the plan. It will need some revision because of changes in European agricultural policy since 1982, but basically the plan is sound. Fianna Fáil will put it into action, making sure that the budgetary provisions are adequate and used in a way that will ensure that the expenditure brings the most useful results possible for the moneys spent. There will be consultation with farmers' representatives in An Foras Talúntais and ACOT, who will be fully involved. As part of the strategy we in Fianna Fáil will charge An Foras Talúntais and ACOT to provide as accurate an analysis as can be reasonably turned out with regard to the situation of farmers in different parts of the country. This analysis will take account of farm size, land quality, the main enterprises, the status of the owner, of the family and so forth, and in what way development aid could best be used to improve efficiency in output. Such information would be of great help in putting the national development plan into action.

As regards processing and marketing, there is need for concerted action. We must develop a food processing industry so as to get better returns both from home and export markets. There is great scope for cutting down on the hundreds of millions of pounds now being spent on the importation of processed foods into this country. Fianna Fáil will give the central role to the Department of Agriculture and Food, bringing under this new Department the present Department of Agriculture and adding responsibility at Cabinet level for the development of the food industry. This effort will also extend to developing the horticultural industry. Earlier this year we published a very striking study of the scope available for reducing fruit and vegetable imports and increasing the output for horticulture. In all these efforts there may well be need to encourage more involvement of foreign capital, particularly where this capital is linked to existing market outlets. We are looking at those areas at present.

As well as adding value to the economy of the agricultural industry by developing and expanding agricultural output as it is usually understood, there is also scope for developing farm enterprises — indeed, alternative farm enterprises. The Minister, in replying to some recent parliamentary questions on this subject, did not come to grips with the matter. Some good work has been done in this area and there is scope for more. The value of such enterprises is quite clear. They can supplement incomes, especially on small holdings which leave some time available for work outside normal farming activity, or they can be part and parcel of that activity, depending on the circumstances. The most obvious of these enterprises is farm house tourism. Farm cheese making is another and in this area we have had some small but remarkable successes. Other alternatives may need more expertise and capital on a larger farm area — for example, deer farming. Given the right person in the right situation, there are good possibilities here.

In the area of alternative enterprises there is need for more encouragement at Government level and throughout the State service. Development of any enterprise will require ability and determination on the part of the individual who takes the job, but some lead from the Government is needed. In passing, I should like to comment on the proposals put forward by Minister Hegarty with regard to his efforts to promote the growing of flax in his area. I commend him for this and I ask that the Department and the public would give him a little more support than he is getting at present in the areas of alternative enterprise.

The Minister has spoken about the farm income situation and it is a sad story. I have described the alternative strategy which is demanded if this sad story is to be reversed. The rest of my comments must be looked on as background, particularly my serious charges against the Government for their neglect of agriculture and I have said what Fianna Fáil will do towards developing the industry.

I wish to mention briefly the disease eradication programme. Some months ago I joined in welcoming the advances made with regard to brucellosis. Bovine tuberculosis is another sad chapter. Why, in the name of common sense, have the Government dealt as they have with this disease? Capable and decent officials from the Department of Agriculture have come before a committee of this House and said that as long as there are cut-backs in funding for disease eradication programmes from year to year, little progress with eradication can be made. There is no point in the Minister saying today that he will get the £4 million or £5 million extra to continue with at least one round of testing this year. This is the fourth time that he has come into the House saying that and still the money is not forthcoming. I would perhaps understand the Government's attitude were we living in some poor country of the Third World where the little government money which is available can be used to save the lives of people, but here we are dealing with bovine tuberculosis as if it were a pressing creditor who must be thrown some money now and then if only to keep him from pressing for more and more.

Disease is costing the taxpayer, the farmer and the country much money and it must be said that this cost must stop. I gave the Minister the full support of this party in doubling the contributions of the farmers and in continuing that policy. He must realise that the farmers are now contributing to the tune of £14 million for disease eradication and it is not good enough for his Department and the Department of Finance to cut back in this very vital area. Furthermore, unless sufficient funds are made available this year for at least one full round of testing in each county, the moneys spent last year might as well not have been spent. Great work was done last year, but it is only by consistent effort, by getting on top of the job and having full co-operation from everybody that we can finally cure this festering sore which has been with us for so many years. I appeal to the Minister to stop dithering and get on with the job. If he gets the finances, I can assure him — as he said himself — that within two years we can get this problem down to manageable levels.

An official of another Department told a Dáil committee meeting recently that there could be very great savings in a particular area which involved fraudulent claims if only the Government provided the money for the staff needed. The same applies in this case. If the Government provided the money to rid the country of bovine TB, it would be got rid of. I want sufficient money to be provided. How many minutes have I left?

Acting Chairman

Two minutes.

(Limerick West): Will the Chair give me three minutes as I was three minutes late starting?

Acting Chairman

The Deputy has three minutes left.

(Limerick West): I wish to make a few comments on the Minister's speech. The Minister never loses an opportunity to gloss over his cave-in in 1984 in regard to the milk quota and the guarantee given at that time. The Minister came home and boasted in subsequent years that no further cuts in the Irish milk quota would be made by the Commission. The Commission and the Council of Ministers won the day. Our Minister for Agriculture has caved in again on this vital commitment he gave to the milk industry at that time.

When speaking about vacuum packed beef the Minister pointed out that an increase in the volume of exports in this form is very welcome. The sole purpose of our proposal with regard to the setting up of a Department of Agriculture and Food was that we should export, as far as we possibly can, our agricultural products in a processed form. The Minister spoke about beef and lamb, about the need to improve the quality of animals and of products. I agree totally with this commitment. This is part and parcel of Fianna Fáil policy. I want to see some evidence from the Minister of his approach and his seriousness in this area.

In order for the milk industry to get away from intervention production we must broaden the product range. I agree this is important. Here again the Minister and the Government have cut back their contribution to An Foras Talúntais who should be the body to research and develop new products. The very base of this industry is being cut away. That is a disaster in so far as the Government are concerned.

The Minister said that Deputy Hegarty, Minister of State, was being given responsibility for food processing. We all know that was an attempt to react to our proposal to set up a Department of Agriculture and Food. It is important, therefore, that one Minister should look after food production, food processing and marketing, right to the consumer table. It is also important that we develop alternative farm enterprises. We must look for alternative areas of income for increasing farmer income.

This Estimate is not acceptable to me or to the Fianna Fáil Party. As far as I am concerned the Dáil is being asked to approve what is in effect an admission of failure by the Government to support agriculture and all that is worthwhile. I propose that the Dáil reject this Estimate.

Acting Chairman

The Minister has 20 minutes.

For the sort of head I have it will be long enough. I apologise for the fact that I have a head cold.

(Limerick West): The Minister will get a lot said in 20 minutes.

I have no doubt that I will be helped along the line. By virtue of the fact that the Minister covered a great deal of ground I do not intend to go over the topics that he brought to our attention this evening, there are, however, a number of items to which I would like to draw attention which are very important in the context of the overall agriculture industry and about which there is a considerable amount of debate at present.

First of all, new ground was broken during the year when I introduced the new farm improvement programme. After an awful lot of organisation and an awful lot of negotiation this scheme finally saw the light of day a few months ago. This was to replace the old farm modernisation scheme which was there since 1972 or 1973. By virtue of the fact that we had 12 or 14 years experience of a particular on-farm investment programme, we had a fairly detailed knowledge of how we should best tailor it to suit the needs of present day Irish agriculture. With the hiccups that one will normally find with a national scheme, its introduction seems to be getting a very good reception.

Briefly, I want to inform the House on what is involved without getting too technical. As we are aware, the basis of the old farm modernisation scheme was that one had to show, through a farming programme, that one was able to attain a certain level of income in a specified pre-determined length of time. Obviously in its day it was all right. We believe that the new system, where an increase of only 5 per cent over the duration of the plan will be sufficient for eligibility, will mean that far more farmers will be involved and at a higher level of grant aid.

One of the bugbears of the old scheme was the fact that persons over 55 years of age were debarred from entry. This created a huge problem in many parts of Ireland and particularly in the north-west where the age profile of farmers might tend to be that little bit older. As the House is well aware, many people will reckon that they are only getting good at 55. From my point of view, it appears that this was a very good addition to the scheme. I understand there is a fair level of interest by persons in that category. This will be a hallmark of all schemes from Brussels in the future. For any on-farm investment aid it will be necessary to keep some type of accounts. The accounts we talk about are not the normal accounts. They are records more than accounts. I hope every farmer, for his own good, keeps records. In the last scheme some farmers did not keep farm accounts and this created some problems. I am talking about records as against full scale accounts. One of the things I wanted to be sure of when we were negotiating this scheme was that we would put it in such a way that we would not be adding extra costs to a farmer who might have to employ an accountant. I have asked the FDS offices around the country to assist farmers in preparing those records. I have no doubt that no cost will attach to that scheme.

The scheme has a number of new attractive grants. In line with our policy of keeping abreast with the more up-to-date technology in agriculture we have introduced grants for paddock fencing, farm roadways, the installation of water on farms and all those type of things that were not there in the past.

(Limerick West): All those grants were there in the past.

They were there years ago but in the past five or six years they were not there. They are there now.

(Limerick West): I dealt with them myself.

And no better man. We had not those type of grants for the last five or six years and now we have them.

(Limerick West): I am just keeping the record straight.

Our decision in the last week or two to increase grant aid for silage bases on which the silage is made is a very important factor and one on which I would like to dwell for a few moments. Irrespective of what incentives were made available over the last ten years to try to get farmers into silage it appears that once we get two or three weeks of fine weather we are back to hay again. On this occasion I hope there will be a rapid uptake of the extra 10 per cent. This will now mean that farmers everywhere who are eligible for the grant will get a total of 45 per cent at up-to-date standard costings. That is an excellent grant and I would exhort every farmer who is not in silage to decide to go for this now.

We have provided grants for fodder harvesters in the west. I would have to say that, as far as incentives go, the Government cannot be faulted for doing all that is humanly possible, to use that important but well-worn catch phrase, to get people to make silage. There are one or two problems with the scheme which I would like to mention, one of which is the milk quota where farmers are producing above their permanent quota. This is not a problem of our doing. The EC Commission imposed it on us and any farmer who was above his quota could not qualify for grants under the farm improvement programme. That is unfair, and we have said that in no uncertain terms in our negotiations with the Commission. We believe it should be done on the basis that the country at large should be recognised as a unit. Provided the country at large is not above the quota there is no reason to penalise individual farmers. At the end of the day, I am very hopeful we will be able to get over this problem.

I am delighted at having this opportunity to mention in the House that this is the first time, a real first in agriculture, we have decided to bring forward the new farm installation grant for young farmers entering agriculture. This has been talked about for years and years. Everybody had their own views but I am delighted to say that we are the first Government to introduce this aid and benefit. What it amounts to is that under certain circumstances a person under 35 years of age working on a farm which has a one labour unit requirement and who is sufficiently trained in agriculture will now be able to receive a grant of £5,600 on he or she becoming the registered owner of the farm. Might I bring to the notice of the House that over the past three or four years the Government brought in the stamp duty exemption. I have been closely associated with this for many years. The idea is that we expedite the transfer of land from a father or mother to a son or daughter. I am delighted to say that well over 5,000 persons seem to have qualified.

It has a second beneficial effect in that because it is tied to a certain agricultural qualification, by virtue of the 100 hours EC course, we are killing two birds with the one shot. This is one of the reasons — whether it is a good or bad reason is open to discussion — why I would have to say the ACOT courses around the country have been very well attended. As someone who has responsibility for lands in the Department I believe this was the first step in getting greater mobility in land inheritance. I have no doubt that administratively it is very simple. There are no hidden costs for which civil servants will have to be running around the country to check. This is one of the things on which I have looked back over the past three years with great delight. It is not confined to big or small farmers provided they are under the age limit and have the suitable agricultural qualifications. The Government pay the stamp duty on the transfer of the land. We are going to go a step further this year and introduce the new installation premium. The self same farmer under certain conditons will receive an extra £5,600.

I want to make very clear this evening that to show our commitment to young people entering farming we have done something the rural oganisations have been looking for for years. We have brought in an additional 25 per cent grant aid for on-farm investments for certain qualified persons, such as I outlined a few moments ago, above and beyond the grant aid already there. Looking back on the stamp duty exemption, the new installation premium and the extra 25 per cent for young people entering agriculture, everyone, even our most stringent critics, will have to accept that we have done our bit to get young people interested in farming and make their entry into farming that little bit easier. These are trying times for farmers at all levels. I make no secret of that. But at the same time, from the Government's point of view, it can be shown very clearly that we are committed to ensuring we get a nice input of young blood, full of vigour, into this great industry. We are on the right lines.

There are a number of other aspects I would like to refer to. One of the things which is often thrown at the Government, for some reason best known to the Opposition, is that there is a retreat from agriculture. I cannot accept that. I outlined in great detail during a debate on a motion last week the type of finances which are available through the various schemes. While it is not appropriate on an occasion such as this to itemise them again, it is sufficient for me to state that in a full year we pay out £122 million in one form or another to farmers under headage schemes etc. Of that £122 million, £98 million, or 80 per cent, will go to the disadvantaged areas from Galway to Donegal. Those figures speak for themselves. Deputy Noonan referred to the lack of a lime subsidy which costs £2 million in the run of a year. Since the last Agriculture Estimate 12 months ago we have added 1,250,000 acres to the severely handicapped areas. I do not want to get everybody tied up in this as one would want to be a computer to know the difference between disadvantaged areas and severely disadvantaged areas. There will be £20 million more paid out to western farmers this year than last year. I want that to be noted. It is an achievement in itself.

There are a few other peripheral matters I would like to refer to which are important in their own way. In a previous debate in this House the problems of sheep farmers on hill areas all over the country were raised. Two years ago I saw fit to introduce a pilot scheme on the hills of Connemara whereby a helicopter would fertilise areas totally inaccessible to trucks and machinery by dropping brown rock phosphate on the hills. Having examined the scheme in great detail I am delighted to be able to tell the House that, under the western package, grants will be made available for the fencing and fertilisation of such hills around the country. I believe there is a tremendous future in hill sheep farming, something that did not arise until the last five or six years when we gained access to the Italian market. This scheme affords a great opportunity to bring great fertility to the poorest areas of the country. In future years I think one will see many helicopters being used spreading fertiliser on the top of hills, killing bracken and that type of thing. That will be another good omen that our hill sheep farming will continue to yield good results on difficult land.

Last Monday I headed a delegation for the CBF to The Royal Show in Edinburgh. The reason for our visit was to re-establish contact with a traditional market for heifers from the west of this country to Scotland, which market had dwindled away over the past ten years. We have what are described as blue-grey heifers, with a lot of Aberdeen Angus blood in their veins, which found great favour with the hill farmers of Scotland. Of course we have also the Friesian/ Hereford cross-heifers here that will be most important to the breeding herds of Scotland. For a variety of reasons that market had dwindled away altogether. We are now what is termed OBF — official brucellosis free — the same as the rest of the British Isles. This means there is no need for leucosis or pregnancy testing. Of course with the advent of the rollon, roll-off system of transportation we want to re-establish the links with this small but vital market in Scotland. From what I could gather from the many old Scottish importers of Irish cattle and, indeed, the many new customers I met in Edinburgh last week, we can look forward to important trade with them.

There has been much talk about the Germans and their ability to get a fairly large chunk of German land classified as severely handicapped. I want to put on the record of the House that our Minister saw fit to support that. I think he was right. With the advent of the EC funding of socio-structures one would hope that the Commission would put their money where their mouths are. Under the sociostructural policy arrangements for disadvantaged areas one would hope they will be in a position to pay a much higher level of grant aid than has been the case heretofore. Normally it carries a 25 per cent recoupment rate which is what Deputy Noonan was speaking about. Deputy Noonan mentioned nations like Germany being able to pay 75 per cent and get recoupment of 25 per cent. We have done better; we have a 50 per cent recoupment rate but, because of the problems we encounter vis-á-vis Greece, Portugal and other countries we want that rate to be at least 75 per cent. I want to put on the record that this Government have sought persistently a 75 per cent recoupment and we shall continue our efforts in that regard.

I am glad to have an opportunity to contribute to this debate. In fact, I am glad that you are ActingChairman, Deputy Doyle, because, as the doyen of city Deputies, I should like to be able to point out to you that we are not talking in particular about farming — blue-grey heifers, or Aberdeen Angus, not even roll-ones or roll-offs; indeed I thought that contraption had disappeared even in disadvantaged areas.

I should like to educate the Minister regarding his Department's retreat from agriculture. I have here a summary of the Estimates for the past few years. Under the heading of Agriculture for 1984 the Estimate amounted to £256 million, for 1985, £254 million and this year £223 million. Despite the fact that there has been that retreat in the level of the Estimate for Agriculture, I would hope the Department would get around to spending that amount of money this year and not have the Scrooge-like attitude of last year when, despite the farming community having been put to the pin of their collars to retain even their sanity the Department of Agriculture did not even spend their allocation and there remained at the end of the year in unexpended balances £27 million.

I hope that this year the Department and their officials will at least spend the allocation, small as it is. Of a total expenditure on all the Estimates in the region of £7,000 million Agriculture gets £223 million, representing less than 5 per cent. For an economy that is agriculture-based that is not a great deal of money. We must remember that our economy is agriculture-based. It saddens me that various Government Ministers can get money for various projects, but, when it comes to agriculture, for some reason or other in recent years, it has not been possible to do so. It has been possible to get money to bale out Bewleys they being regarded as constituting an important part of Dublin life. In that respect all credit due to Dublin Deputies; they did a good job. I am glad to note that £10 million is to be provided for O'Connell Street because we have a beautiful capital city, one of the finest in the world. I am glad it will be seen to best advantage.

As far as agriculture is concerned we must depart from the clichés, the old bottom line of saying it is the backbone of the economy, the top six inches of soil are our most important asset, when there is no tangible evidence that we are treating agriculture in the way it should be treated. Up to a decade ago major emphasis was placed on improving production techniques. Again all credit is due to the farmers who, when asked to produce a particular product, commodity or livestock, went ahead and did just that. They took the experts' advice, the advice of departmental agencies, the agricultural advisory and research bodies.

Regrettably, in the past decade, we have failed to continue the logical progression, omitting to support the industry beyond the production stage. I am referring to the processing and marketing areas. We have heard that there is to be a reintroduction of FEOGA grants for food processing. But by and large we confine our agricultural production to commodity type products and areas. The reason for that is that there is not the type of support or funding necessary or indeed, the political will required to process in the most sophisticated way the products which our farmers have gone to the trouble of producing on the advice they were given.

In regard to advances in food product areas, it is a sad fact that in recent years the development of new products has been associated with foreign companies, through royalties or otherwise. They have not been developed in Ireland by our own food processors and technolgists. I want additional funding given to An Foras Talúntais and I want to see them responding by being more practical in the type of research and development they carry out in order to ensure that the farmers and the economy get the maximum payment for their products. It is sad that there is a cut this year in the allocation on An Foras Talúntais. They cannot go on from day to day not knowing what amount they will be allocated for a particular project. Most of those projects take a year or two. I call on the Government to give adequate funding and direction to An Foras Talúntus and to insist on relevant research and development work being carried out in the area of food processing.

Our attitude to marketing is that it will take care of itself and that somehow somewhere we will find somebody to take our products. That is not the reality. We are left trying to hawk food products of one kind or another around the world. Usually they are sold in a rancid or half stale condition because the cost of storage is too great. We need to fund realistically market and consumer research to find out what is wanted and, secondly, the marketing and promotion of products. It is not good enough that CBF have such a negligible amount of money to promote the meat industry which has exports in excess of £1,000 million. If we are to compete in the world marketplace and get the best possible prices for the producers, we must reconsider that area. I am not satisfied that in the area of production, processing and marketing there is realistic investment sufficient to get the maximum added value.

Strolling through the food markets and supermarkets we see that foreign companies identify market areas and then sell their products. For instance, the French did some research and found an opening in the market for apples. In any of the supermarkets one will find potatoes from Cyprus and the Netherlands almost exclusively available, to the detriment of the Irish producer. The Department of Agriculture and the Ministers must be judged in the light of the fact that Ireland has a food import bill in excess of £1,000 million. By any standard this is a scandal. We heard three years ago that a Cabinet sub-committee would be set up to deal with this matter and introduce regulations at an early date. More recently we have heard that this is to be a permanent committee sitting ad nauseam wondering about this worsening problem. If a person put the cost of food imports in £10 notes on a conveyor belt it would take him to the moon and back. That is the kind of distance we have to travel as a food producing and exporting country if we are to tackle this problem. Irish farmers will produce the type, quantity and quality of product required if the processors and the marketing people will do the rest of the job. They need political direction and funding in order to do that.

The past year was particularly difficult for the primary producer. It was galling that the Government and the Department of Agriculture, rather than taking a sympathetic view and introducing short-term measures, were busy tinkering around and coming up with various schemes to extract additional money from the farmers by tightening the screw a little more and introducing a land tax which would yield £70 million, whether farmers made an income or not.

Despite the fact that the farm advisory services are required more urgently here than in any other member state, it was decided that it would be a good year to introduce charges for these services. Despite the explicit commitment in the national plan, Building on Reality, to carry out a blitz on disease eradication there was a cut-back of £4.5 million, so that only certain areas could be tested. At a time when a sum in excess of £1,000 million had been expended on disease eradication, the Minister who allowed that to happen has much to answer for. I call on the Minister for Agriculture to adhere to the commitment in the national plan, if there is a shred of credibility left in it, and to fund adequately a full disease eradication programme. We should not be the laughing stock of the world, having spent several generations trying to eradicate tuberculosis in particular. About 25 years ago we went through the charade of having the country declare officially free of tuberculosis but we are now in an even worse position.

Because there is so little sympathy for anybody trying to make a case for farming, it has to be repeatedly emphasised that agriculture is not synonymous with farming itself. It employs 500,000 people and exports are valued at £2,500 million. If agriculture is not in a healthy state there is no hope for the overall health of the economy. I again emphasise to the Minister of State that the farming community and the agricultural sector want to have the allocation of money, small as it is, spent in this year. It is worth recalling that at the end of last year, following a disastrous harvest, the farming community in a very generous gesture offered £7 million as a contribution towards an increased rate of headage payments to which they were entitled. It would have cost the Irish taxpayer an additional £7 million to put £28 million in circulation in the worst hit parts of the country.

It is not as easy as that.

That money would have gone to the disadvantaged and severely handicapped areas. It is regrettable that that was not done. I was glad to hear the Minister of State repeat that the Government are pursuing a policy of giving a greater percentage allocation, a 75:25 ratio, in regard to funds from Europe. As a small economy we are not able to match pound for pound to the same extent as the other member states, but under no circumstances will the Department of Finance allow the maximum revenue to come from Brussels if they are asked to pay pound for pound. We are all aware of that Department's attitude of agriculture. If the Department were unable to come up with the money last year I cannot see them getting around to it in future years.

With regard to interest rates, it is interesting to note that we have to compete with farmers who enjoy low interest rates in other member states. It is unfortunate that our farmers have had to pay in the region of three times the real interest rate on borrowing that farmers in Germany pay. The Euro currency loan of £135 million was welcome but the farming community are in debt to the commercial banks, the merchant banks and the ACC to the tune of £2,000 million. I estimate that farmers owe at least another £500 million to co-ops and various merchants. The loan of £135 million will make little impact on a total indebtedness of £2,500 million. Urban dwellers, those in the PAYE sector and non-agricultural people who think that the farming community are extremely well-off should remember that for the 100,000 full time farmers an indebtedness of £2,500 million is an enormous sum to have to repay, particularly at the high rates of interest we have in Ireland. I cannot see why the Government are insisting on a 2 per cent exchange rate and a further 1 per cent and that the banks are insisting on between 2 per cent and 2½ per cent bringing the real cost of the Euro currency to 9½ per cent. We must remember that farmers in Germany pay 4 per cent.

I have tried to outline the difficulties those involved in Irish agriculture are facing. I suggest that the Minister, his Ministers of State, and officials in the Department look more benignly on the industry, that they loosen the screw a little and at least spend the money allocated. They should try to ensure that from 1986 onwards Irish agriculture will get out of the low gear it is in and go into overdrive.

Ba mhaith liom, ar an gcéad dul síos, tréaslú don Aire Talmhaíochta as ucht an méid atá san Mheastachán.

In welcoming the Estimate introduced by the Minister for Agriculture it is no harm to reflect briefly on where we in Ireland fit into the European agricultural scene, given that the Common Agricultural Policy lists among its five major aims the ensuring of a fair standard of living for farmers. It is supremely important to remember that and I should like to devote my time to that aspect. In that context it is well to remember that the Irish Republic is comprised of 17 million acres of which 12 million acres are utilised for agricultural purposes. Of that 12 million acres, 11 million are used for pastures and approximately one million for tillage of which 70 per cent is utilised for cereal production.

Of the 264,000 agricultural holdings classified by size 176,000,67 per cent, are less than 50 acres. The EC document, the Agricultural Policy of the European Community, issued in October 1982, states that the average farm size in Ireland is 22.52 hectares — one multiplies that by 2.5 to get acres — and the corresponding figure for the UK is 68.70 hectares, or roughly 3:1.

An analysis of the holdings in my own county, Limerick, and neighbouring counties, shows that in Limerick there are 10,935 holdings with 6,195, or 56 per cent, under 50 acres. In Clare there are 11,866 holdings with 7,205, or 61 per cent, under 50 acres. In Kerry there are 16,802 holdings with 10,856, or 65 per cent, under 50 acres while in Tipperary North Riding there are 6,480 holdings with 3,217, or 50 per cent, under 50 acres.

The Labour Party have always been conscious of the contribution small farmers make to the Irish economy. In the Commission's price proposals and review of the CAP, one of the objectives outlined was to deal more effectively and systematically with the income problems of small farmers. It is worth noting that approximately 180,000 — 16 per cent of the workforce — are employed directly in agriculture compared to 2.7 per cent in the UK and 12 per cent in Italy. The estimated value of gross agricultural output in 1985 was £2.7 billion. It is interesting to compare the number employed in the 26 commercial semi-State organisations which come under the aegis of my committee, the Oireachtas Joint Committee on State-Sponsored Bodies. They employ approximately 80,000 people or equivalent to 44 per cent of those employed in agriculture. Approximately 20 per cent of farmers are 65 years of age or over and we should not overlook the significant employment that is directly available in agriculture.

In regard to employment I should like to quote from the Final Commission's Proposals on the Prices for Agricultural Products and on Related Measures, dated 13 February 1986 which states:

The situation on the employment market is still the most serious economic and social problem in the Community. It gives particular concern at a time when growing numbers of young people of working age are unemployed and when government efforts to bring public finances into order, especially in some Member States, leave little room for more vigorous action to stimulate investment and create new employment.

As I said earlier, we produce only 2.2 per cent of total EC production. I am speaking about when there were only ten members. Naturally, because of our dependence on pastures, grassland which is one of our greatest natural resources, our agricultural production reflects the output of this asset in beef and milk, and the significant difference between us and other EC states is that we must export more than 80 per cent of our beef production and more than 75 per cent of our cheese and butter production. Therefore, EC policies that affect Community prices have a real impact on the incomes of many small farmers who are involved in dairying and beef production in Ireland.

It must be understood that farmers' incomes are determined by cost of production and the price they receive. Through the CAP, the EC determine common prices, although costs of production vary in each member state. This point is made in The Irish Times today by Michael Dillon, their agricultural correspondent:

For instance, Irish farmers grudgingly get a 3 per cent VAT refund to compensate for the VAT that they pay on some farm inputs, but German farmers get a 13 per cent refund to compensate them for a revaluation of the green mark. Irish farmers also get the lowest possible grants for farm improvements, and the lowest headage payments in the disadvantaged areas, because our Government cannot match the top rates.

We must be conscious always that farm incomes not only affect the farmers themselves but the towns and the cities where they make their purchases. It has been accepted that, when the farming community are doing well, their local towns and cities benefit. The comparative position in regard to farming for each EC member state makes interesting reading.

I will refer to a report in the 6 June issue of The Irish Times, again by Michael Dillion. If it is true it is a national outrage. The article refers to headage payments in disadvantaged areas and I hope the Minister will refer to the allegations when he is replying:

A group of farmers in Sligo is planning to mount a challenge to the restrictions placed on headage payments in disadvantaged areas by the Government here. These headage payments on cattle and sheep which are part funded by the EC, are intended to keep the population up on farms in difficult areas, and in this country they are kept to the minimum allowed and are not available to farmers who either through their own efforts, or because their spouses are working, have an off farm income of more than £6,400 a year. This clause cuts out 500 herd owners from a total of 5,000 in Sligo, with up to 1,500 barred in Donegal, and between 3,500 and 5,000 farmers on a national basis.

The odd thing is that because of a separate order made by the Department of Agriculture, members of the Oireachtas, TDs and Senators, are not barred, and in fact it is claimed that two British MPs are actually drawing headage payments, and of course large scale farmers are also eligible, while small farmers with labouring jobs, or with working wives of husbands are cut off from this source of supplementary income.

This clause is particularly ironic at the present time when the German Government has just increased by 50 per cent the area of their country classed as less favoured, or disadvantaged, in order to be able to make direct payments to all farmers on good land as a compensation for the cuts in farm price supports, their cut off point for eligibility is very high, and does not differentiate between farm income and money earned off the farm. In Britain there is no means test whatever.

As I have said, if that is true it is a national outrage. It is estimated that there are 10,000 working people engaged in agricultural development and it is totally discriminatory to withhold EC aid from them aimed at improving the general level of Irish agriculture.

I was astonished to learn from the article I have just cited that TDs and Senators engaged in agriculture qualify for headage grant payments in the severely handicapped areas while they are denied to other farmers who have to take up employment in factories and elsewhere but whose income exceeds £6,400. I am not opposed to paying people grants for which they are qualified, but it is absolutely farcical to pay these grants to selected groups and to deny them to a broad group of trade union workers whose earnings are only a fraction of the other groups. Those people pay their PAYE and PRSI as well as tax and insurance on their cars which they use to take them to and from work, and of course they pay a considerable tax on petrol.

I am putting it to the Minister that he should end this farce. I accept that there is a need for a cut-off point because otherwise you could have some vet, for instance, with an annual income of £40,000, qualifying for these grants. However, the present position is anomalous. For example, farmer A with an annual income of £8,000 solely from his farm qualifies for these payments, but his neighbour, farmer B, with an annual income of £1,000 from his farm and £6,000 from a job — perhaps it is his wife who works — is denied these payments. Accordingly, the part time farmerworker can lose £700 in grants by earning an extra £100 a week. It is obvious there should be a differentiation between a person on PAYE and one paying schedule D income tax, somebody engaged in a trade or profession, but the Minister should look at this whole question again because it seems people are penalised if they are marginally on a PAYE income.

I understand that these headage payments are made under EC directive, not regulations, and each member state has a considerable degree of latitude in how the directive is implemented. I think the Irish criteria for qualification are too tight. They provide that a farmer must spend more than half his time on the farm; he must obtain more than half of his income from the farm; the off-farm income of both the farmer and his spouse must not exceed £6,400 per annum, or £123 per week. The average disposable income per week in Ireland is approximately £100 per acre.

Farming is now a highly capital intensive industry and the Labour Party, the oldest in the country, since their foundation have maintained that small farmers were the backbone of the Irish economy. My party have always wanted to see as many persons working on the land as possible earning a decent living for their families.

As the Minister has said, great improvements have been made in the past year in disease eradication but unfortunately there has been a cut-back in money and this year a complete round of testing will not be carried out. We must have targets in this programme, as was pointed out in the NESC report, No. 79. We must make every effort as a Government and as a people to ensure that we will have the highest standards in cattle health. While the Minister will say that all support possible has been and will be given to the farming community, it is ridiculous in this day to embark on such a scheme without the aid of up-to-date facilities such as those existing in the North of Ireland and Britain. There must be a special computer section with qualified people in the Department of Agriculture to keep data on cattle health and try to keep control over a situation that would be ridiculous if it were allowed to obtain in private industry. I am talking about the movement two or three times per year of six million cattle throughout the State. If any modern private enterprise tried to cope with that task without the aid of a computer section, they would be laughed off the face of the earth. The Minister and the Department should give serious consideration to having a computer section to help in that matter.

The same NESC report recognised the need for investment in drainage, especially in the western areas. I regret the Opposition spokesman on Agriculture did not see fit to refer to that matter. It is a problem that requires urgent attention. In my area in Limerick I am aware of the need to drain the Mulcair river. We have made an excellent case to the Minister and to the Government as to why that river should be drained. It would give the best return for money invested. It would increase agricultural output by an estimated £27 million per year, and that is a conservative estimate. It would also create employment with jobs ranging between 300 and 600 on the Mulcair river, with a downstream spin-off effect, on IDA calculations, of between 600 and 800 new jobs.

I saw the dreadful floodings that have taken place and two years ago Senator Hourigan and I visited the areas concerned. At that time human beings were nearly drowned. I understand the Taoiseach gave a commitment to the Mulcair Drainage Society that the river would be drained as soon as possible. I call on him and the Minister for Agriculture to honour that commitment given to the farmers of east Limerick. The whole project might usefully be brought under the National Development Corporation. What is proposed would cost the State nothing, but employment could be created for tens of thousands of people. Grants are available from the EC and I do not understand why this work is not being carried out. I understand the economists in the Office of Public Works have said that the project would be self-financing. I am asking that the reports on the matter be published as soon as possible and that drainage work be moved from the Office of Public Works to the Department of Agriculture.

At the moment there are double standards obtaining in relation to animal hygiene. There are unlicensed slaughterhouses in Limerick and elsewhere that are defying all the efforts of the statutory bodies to eliminate cattle diseases. I propose that fines of £50,000 be imposed on these unlicensed illegal slaughterhouses to stop those double standards. Recently in Limerick a consignment of diseased meat was sent to Sarsfield barracks which could have poisoned half of the people there. We must ensure that we have the highest standards in animal hygiene if we are to continue to be regarded as one of the principal agricultural nations in Europe.

We are debating this Estimate at a time when the main preoccupation of the farming community is to survive. Substantial positive measures will have to be taken to restore the confidence of farmers and the only way that can be done is to provide the necessary aid and assistance. People in the industry have suffered much during the past 12 months and they need help to get back on their feet again. It is vital that we convince farmers that they have the support and commitment of the Department.

As the previous speaker pointed out, small farmers have always suffered but in the past year intensive farmers were the people who suffered most. They found it difficult to feed their animals during the very bad winter. In my area I was a member of a committee formed to deal with the fodder problem. The co-operatives made a positive contribution to the farming community by providing financial and other assistance and they also gave long term credit to the farmers. This stretched the co-ops to the limit because farmers were forced to borrow the maximum amount available. Most of those farmers are now in an even worse state.

I mention one area where help could be given and that is with regard to fertilisers. During the next few months farmers must grow more winter feed and in this connection fertilisers are esential, particularly nitrogenous fertiliser. Farmers and merchants have stood by NET even at a time when their products were not favourably priced vis-à-vis imported products and now NET should reduce their price to help the farming sector.

The previous speaker referred to the severely disadvantaged areas and I mentioned the matter a few days ago in this House. One of the best things he could do would be to examine the possibility of declaring the whole country a severely handicapped area so that every farmer would qualify for the cattle headage grant. We have made this point very often. This would probably cost about £6 million but the Government could recoup 50 per cent of it.

At present the officials spend more time investigating claims, part-time workers, people whose wives may be working but we have a special crib in my constituency. Even over the past week there has been a drop in milk production in my area. As a dairying area we have had the most serious decline in milk production and we will find it very hard to make up this loss between now and the end of the year. I hope the Minister will apply for another extension without delay and do as the Germans did. This would show that he is concerned about these areas which have been victimised. The two countries I represent came out very badly from this deal, despite the pleas we made to the Minister to do something for us.

The Minister said he visited many areas, and I am very glad he did so because it is very important for him to see what is happening around the country. But my fear is that people will show him the best parts and he will not see the worst areas.

(Limerick West): The Minister looks behind the scenes.

I do a bit of canvassing too.

Up to now we have been saying the weather was to blame — we were not blaming the Minister——

I spent three weeks in Tullycorbett.

It is regrettable that in 1986 when we should be looking at improvements in farm incomes, in productivity and efficiency, our farm income is below the 1980 level, and there is a great deal of inefficiency in many areas. Our farmers have lower incomes than other EC farmers and we do not seem to be able to command the same price for our produce as our EC neighbours.

An area which is causing me grave concern is the farm improvement programme. This is not a development programme but it is taking over from the farm modernisation scheme. Under the farm modernisation scheme many farmers had plans carrying them up to the nineties. It is my belief that these two schemes should have been joined together; the farm modernisation scheme could have been phased out and the farm improvement scheme would then have taken over. I met a farmer a few days ago who has a farm programme up to 1992. Such farmers cannot get involved in the farm improvement programme until the programme drawn up by the ACOT officer has been completed.

I saw a report from the ACOT office in Monaghan that they had received 120 applications under the scheme but I believe half of those applications will be rejected on a technicality. It was very unfair to include the reference income. There was a reference income for the western countries, a separate one for Louth, Leinster and Munster and a separate one for Dublin. This was a serious anomaly because it was unfair to the farmers in the west. There was also the reference system which related to the amount of work done and that, in turn, affected the percentage of the grant a farmer could receive. This too militated against farmers in the west and the small farmers in Cavan and Monaghan. I believe this scheme was probably imposed on the Minister by his officials, but they did a bad day's work in drawing it up. I will hold this personal opinion until I see evidence that this is anything other than an anomalmous scheme which does nothing for the developing of farming.

The Minister referred to silage grants and we all agree that this is important, but many part time farmers do not qualify for any grant aid and it is important that they get concrete slabs for silage to ensure that they will have a winter supply of feed. I asked the Minister if he would provide grants for silage making slabs and silage making equipment. In view of the need for farmers to conserve winter feed I asked the Minister if he would make aid available to construct concrete slabs for farmers who do not qualify under the farm improvement scheme. The Minister replied that, in view of the limited financial resources available, it was not possible to provide funds from the national Exchequer to make grant aid available for silage slabs to farmers who are not entitled to participate in the FIP or the PWD. There again we threw a group of small farmers who did not qualify for grants on the scrapheap. This is very serious and must be remedied without delay.

The Minister mentioned the problem in pig processing. He said the industry must gear itself better to meet the challenges of increased competition not only on export markets but also on the home market. He went on to say that to meet these challenges the industry must move with a greater sense of urgency to tackle the problems. He then mentioned the overcapacity of slaughtering. I agree that slaughterings have to be examined, but he must ensure that traditional areas for pig processing and pig slaughterings are not left out when this reorganisation takes place. This is very important in an area which provides good employment and where pig production is so important to the economy of the area. In my area 100 jobs in this industry were lost, but the Minister seems hopeful that some of the measures introduced will help to get companies back into production.

One thing that must concern us is the important of pigmeat here when there is freedom now for the Danes and so on to bring in their produce. It is more important than ever that we ensure that we continue with our export market when from 1984 to 1985 our exports dropped by 3 per cent. That gives a clear indication that it is not we who are loading the market abroad. Other countries are doing that and we are falling behind instead of moving forward in exports. In view of the threat from imports and the importance of the industry not alone to the producers and processors in the jobs it is providing but for the grain growers, the millers and the many people who benefit from pig production, in the short term the Minister should take all the action possible to ensure that the industry will ride the storm and get back into a good position. It is regrettable, as the Minister said in his speech, that they have very good housing for breeding and production, splendid breeding stock well built up, very competent operators and at the end of the scale in processing some of the structures, equipment and standards are of doubtful origin. It is a pity that the people in that area did not make the same efforts as the producers did to ensure that the product would be right when leaving this country.

We face a serious situation at present regarding profitability in the very many areas where we have overproduction and the problem of sales. ACOT's corporate plan is a document well written on good quality paper and it contains many commendable suggestions, but the first thing lacking is the money to implement it. I am looking at some of their projects and their plans for 1990 to reduce importation, to plant additional acreage to grow 400 acres of onions — which we should grow every year anyway — 300 acres of carrots, 300 acres of winter cauliflower and 2,000 acres of apples. With other members of this party I visited orchards and vegetable production in a number of centres in the last 12 months. We saw splendid orchards in Kilkenny grown by a Dundalk company. One wonders about An Foras Talúntais not having research and development in apple production when we are talking of growing thousands of acres of apples. Are we doing enough in research and development? It is fine for people to come up with plans, projections and so on; but our problem is that we had too many damn plans and not enough action to support those plans. That corporate plan is ideal but are the finance and will there to implement it?

The enterprise scheme is mentioned in that plan. Our spokesman, Deputy Noonan, referred to it when he talked about farmhouse enterprises, cheesemaking, etc. I hope that the Minister will press ACOT to develop small scale, commercial, on-farm, food enterprises aimed at achieving greater value from existing production and small agri business as an alternative farm enterprise. Not alone in those small enterprises but in tourist related activity we will have to spread our wings to ensure that we will provide more jobs.

Deputy Joe McCartin, you have 20 minutes and you must conclude at 8.15 p.m.

In my lifetime I do not remember a Minister being appointed to office at a more unfortunate time than when the present Minister came in. Through all the years we had the hope of participation in the EC, our transitional period, periods of high price increases and periods when at EC level we had room for further expansion and spending on agriculture within the limit of EC resources. When the Minister came into office it just happened for one reason or another that a combination of circumstances had just arisen to make the prospect for further expanding our agricultural industry more difficult. Combined they put tremendous pressure on the incomes of the agricultural industry. For that reason I have a great deal of sympathy for the Minister. Anybody realising what the situation is in Europe and in the world market and having a sense of responsibility would have been terribly reluctant to take the job he has. I commend him for his courage in battling through it, facing, as he had to, the pressure of agricultural interests in Ireland and meeting with almost insurmountable obstacles in Brussels. I do not envy him the task he has had in the last four years and I hope that in the last year or 18 months of his period of office things will ease to some extent and that he will have an easier time and a more hopeful outlook than we have had for the last four years.

I will drink to that.

Not 18 months surely?

We talk about agriculture here as if we could tackle the agricultural industry, draw up a development plan and work to that plan taking the European situation into consideration and forgetting that the whole economic climate in which we make our plans for agriculture is extremely important. Regardless of what we do for the agricultural industry — and we do sit down, make our projections and apply our best brains to it — if sound and wise economic policies are not followed at national level than all the good planning and all the efforts made in the agricultural industry will come to nothing. Over the years of management of our national economy problems developed which created rates of inflation that pushed up farmers' costs, and Government spending and other matters pushed up the cost of capital. Those two things particularly have made it virtually impossible for any farmer to sit down and draw up a plan and go to a bank or a financial institution to find money to put into the development of his farm. It has made absolutely no sense in recent years for any farmer to invest money in agriculture, particularly in areas such as I come from, for land reclamation or for the purchase of livestock. The interest rates on the money involved will bury that farmer before ever he gets an opportunity to get a return on the money.

We cannot think about agriculture without recognising the realities of the EC. I have heard much soft talk about the agricultural industry through the years, about keeping small farmers on the land, the rights of the farm family and so on. At the same time the population of the west, where small farmers lived in small numbers, was ever dwindling. People were moving into the cities, the very places we said we did not want them to go to. We make our plausible statements about retaining them on the land, but those statements meant nothing when we did not put into practice the economic policies that could at least have kept more of them there.

The same position prevails in Europe. When the Treaty of Rome laid down that farmers are entitled to a reasonable standard of living, there were 20 million farmers in Europe from the nine countries. What use was that statement to the 11 million farmers who have left the land of Europe since and whose farms have either been left derelict or fallen into the hands of other farmers? The reduction in numbers goes on and I blame the EC for its failure to prepare a long term plan for agriculture. At price fixing time the Council of Ministers come together, the Parliament does its usual dance and a compromise is worked out which is designed to placate individual countries on the day. There is no indication of where the agricultural industry in Europe is going in the long term.

We have not faced up to the fact that the capacity of Europe's soil to produce food is limited and that there is no possibility of a living for the 12 million farmers in the EC at present. In the United States of America 2.5 million farmers are producing so much food that there are massive surpluses in many areas. Last year there was a productivity increase of about 10 per cent, in spite of all we heard about farms being sold in the United States. Some people estimate that by the end of the century 200,000 farmers in the United States will produce 80 per cent of the food required.

We cannot ignore those developments or the fact that markets throughout the world are shrinking. We cannot talk about producing milk as if there were markets for it. China now has a surplus of wheat and has been selling maize for the last two years. Saudi Arabia has succeeded in producing enough wheat for its own population. Biotechnology has not been successful. The capacity of a small number of people to produce all the food we need in the foreseeable future is unlimited. To tell farmers in Europe that they are entitled to be on the land as their forefathers were, and all that nonsense, is not facing up to reality. This did not happen in the case of steel workers, textile and shipyard workers or those in factories making motor cars and in the long run it will not happen for the vast majority of the small holdings occupied by farmers throughout the EC. There will have to be a movement of those farmers from the land. What will we do with such people? That also arose in relation to the small shopkeepers, cobblers, carpenters and all the other people who made a living by using their hands and had small businesses.

What will happen in the next ten years? If we are to plan effectively to give acceptable incomes to those on the land, we will have to face up to the fact that numbers will have to be reduced. We will also have to face up to the fact that we need alternative crops; it is simple enough to say that but it may not be easy to identify what we will do. In the west it has become increasingly obvious that it is extremely difficult to get a living from a small or medium size farm and many of the farmers in that area can only survive by being subsidised.

Speakers have suggested that the Government have suddenly withdrawn all aid from agriculture and that farming has been left to forage for itself. Nothing could be further from the truth. The money given to agriculture by FEOGA and voted to it by this House comes to over £1,000 million, which almost equals the total net agricultural income for last year. Many farms are not well equipped and a majority have incomes which are unacceptably low. However, it would be wrong to suggest that the problem can be resolved by taking more money from someone else to increase Government expenditure on agriculture. Perhaps some money could be redirected, but this whole matter should be looked into.

As far as planning at European level is concerned, when you recognise the fact that two-thirds of the budget is spent on agriculture, mostly on storing surpluses, it is obvious that it would be far more sensible to rethink our whole position. With all due respects to the Minister, we are not selling milk to Mexico or beef in the Middle East. There are no markets in which you can sell these products and we are dumping them with massive EC subsidies, £30 per cwt. on every animal sold to Libya. That is not marketing; it is dumping in areas where the market is likely to close down because of falling oil prices and unstable political regimes. We are very foolish to rely on these countries, where people cannot afford to buy high quality food at the sort of price which it cost to produce here. Why should we have to dump our beef in Libya? We have good grassland and a good climate and farmers can work efficiently under these conditions. Cattle breeding stations have been working reasonably well for a number of years and we should be able to get our beef into the supermarket chains in Germany, France and Britain. We should be able to sell in the EC where there is and will be a market instead of putting into intervention and then dumping our products in markets which do not pay a realistic price for them.

We must get rid of our surpluses of milk and cereals and we should not allow beef surpluses to develop. A restriction on dairying now exists and cereal growing is less profitable because of narrow margins. There may be a tendancy towards increased beef production in future years but we should bring the market into balance and seek good prices on the home market. I am only referring to efficient farmers, because others, no matter what prices they got, could not make their operations economic. These people will not survive and we must face up to that. We could save two-thirds of the European budget and if that money was directed towards a regional fund much more money would be available instead of the bulk of the money going, as it does at present, to large British farmers who produce vast quantities of milk and to Dutch farmers also. Under the present system the money goes to the biggest and the richest. This is the direction in which we should be looking and we could save most of the money which is spent at present on surpluses. We should be able to compete with producers in the USA. Argentina and Brazil will develop their agriculture and that will also damage the export of European surpluses.

There has been very bad weather this year, which has meant great difficulties for farmers. On the other hand, I have seen many bad years. Since 1947 I remember most of them and in most of the years since I was actively engaged in agriculture and on only two occasions did a Minister for Agriculture, in the face of a bad harvest, put forward an emergency plan and actually spend a significant amount of money helping to relieve the hardship that was so created. The first was Mark Clinton in 1974 with his feed voucher scheme and the second was the Minister, Deputy Deasy, in the past year. While I did not agree with the way the package was put together, the money that was spent was what had been asked for.

Last August there were discussions with the Creamery Milk Suppliers, the IFA and backbench members of my own party. These groups put before us what they thought were their requirements and the Minister produced and spent as much money as they asked him to spend. He gave practically everything the farming organisations asked for. He did well to squeeze that much out of a Cabinet committed to good housekeeping. He did extremely well and gave immense relief to farmers, particularly in my part of the country. Many people joked and said they met old people on the road who had received cheques on a number of occasions and were totally confused because they did not know where all the money they were getting was coming from. There were advance payments on ewe premiums, silage grants, grants for flooded ground, and feed vouchers. There was such a combination of measures that quite a number of people were surprised and confused. Nevertheless, that sort of emergency action will not resolve the problem when difficulty arises.

We did not hear too many suggestions as to how the problems would or should be resolved. Deputy Noonan said that Deputy Haughey, his Leader, put forward a proposal that we should draw up a balance sheet of the advantages and disadvantages we have enjoyed or suffered through our membership of the EC. Deputy Haughey did not say he would seek to renegotiate our membership. The leader of a major political party who were in Government twice who cannot see at a glance what that balance sheet is like, is never likely to understand where we stand within the Community and how our economy has benefited from it.

The first thing we should remember is that nobody asked us into the EC. We applied for membership. The policies were tailor-made at the time to suit our requirements and we got immense benefit. I do not know what our disadvantages were because when I ask this question I am generally told the disadvantages are that we gave to other countries in Europe the right to come into our own markets. That is absolute nonsense because we could not protect our own markets and at the same time attract multinational trading companies to come in and set up manufacturing here. On the other hand, we all remember that long before we joined the EC we had a free trade agreement with Britain without the benefit of a regional, social, common agricultural policy or anything else and at that time they were probably the most powerful industrial country in Western Europe. This was because we recognised that we had to grow up in the world and if we were to have the same standard of living as everybody else we would have to compete with everybody else. Today, the country that pays the bill as far as we are concerned, the Federal Republic of Germany, does not have a favourable balance of trade with us; the trade balance is the other way to a considerable extent. Only Britain, of all the members of the EC, has a favourable balance of trade with us and we had a free trade agreement with Britain long before we became a member of the EC. Nobody should be under any illusion that there is anything we can do in the final analysis to force a Community of 350 million people to put into effect policies which are designed to suit our needs.

Finally, the protection of the Common Agricultural Policy, seemed to be the great obligation on members of the EC and all Government Ministers. We need the Common Agricultural Policy. We need common policies in more areas than agriculture. We should recognise that agriculture, forestry and fisheries between them last year produced only 10 per cent of GDP. So it is not a very efficient industry and we could have made much more of it in recent years. We want a common agricultural policy. But the Common Agricultural Policy we had in Europe when we had deficiencies in almost all our produce is not the policy that will accommodate our needs today. I do not believe the Common Agricultural Policy was as well designed for our needs as it was thought to be because rich farmers got far too much out of it to the detriment of the farmers in poorer areas.

I would like to see the full headage grant paid. I would not put forward the reasons put forward by Deputy Prendergast and others. From a national, economic point of view we should avail of all the money that is there. I invite the Minister to take a good careful look at agricultural spending to find out what levies we can collect to provide the balancing money so that we can take in every shilling that is available to us particularly through the structural side and the severely handicapped areas scheme.

I join with my colleagues in alerting the House to the fact that, regardless of what the Minister has said, I could find no ray of hope in the very lengthy script he produced. The Minister did make a few useful comments which I was pleased to hear. However, we had hoped there would be some kind of a blueprint or a plan which would help to pull the agricultural industry from the deep recession in which it is at present. Politicians are fairly good with words. But if one tried to extract from the Minister's speech what he will do for agriculture in 1986, one could write on the back of a cigarette box the number of positive proposals contained in it.

There is little point in trying to analyse what went wrong in the past unless one balances this by considering what will happen in the future. There is in agriculture a crisis with a capital C. Unless something is done as a matter of urgency not only will farmers and farm families go to the wall, but serious damage will be done to the economy, resulting in massive job losses in all of the service and processing areas connected with agriculture.

It would be a great shame if it took the destruction of the agricultural industry to bring home to the people how dependent we are on this base industry. I say with the utmost sincerity that the extent of the problem is not fully understood by the Government and those outside agriculture. Perhaps it is because farmers have got the undeserved reputation of complaining when there is no reason for such complaints. That is a myth which people very glibly circulate, saying that farmers are always complaining, anyway. Perhaps we have reached the stage where it is a case of now crying "Wolf". If the problem is to be tackled and resolved, there must first be genuine recognition that a problem exists and identification of its extent.

The crisis has existed for some time and the plight of the farmers has been brought to the Minister's notice by Members of this House and by representatives of farm organisations, but so far he and the Government have failed to acknowledge the problem. Even in his speech today, the Minister appears to be on the defensive and I do not know why he should be. It is his job to deal with the problems facing the agricultural industry and to find the solution to them. He has not other function than to try to bring about the maximum level of development within the Department over which he has control and in which he has jurisdiction.

In fairness, I admit that a Minister for Agriculture in the present international situation has a tough job; there is absolutely no doubt about that. It is a tough job negotiating for farmers in Europe. However, it is his duty to ensure that, in negotiating on behalf of the farmers of his country, he gets the maximum possible deal for them and for the agricultural industry. It is also his duty and responsibility to ensure that, whatever happens and no matter what price he has to pay in terms of unpopularity by taking tough decisions in Europe, the bottom line must be the protection of the maximum number of Irish farm families.

Two major considerations must dominate the debate on this Estimate. The first is the individual position of farmers and farm families and what the Government will do to protect their incomes. The Minister said he has travelled around the country and that he was very pleased at the number of farmers he met on his travels who were satisfied with the outcome of his negotiations. I do not know what part of the country he travelled around, but he is certainly not meeting the farmers with the problems my colleagues and I are meeting day after day. The reality is — although it is the Minister's job to try to defend his own position — that the vast majority of farm families are either struggling to make ends meet, depending on the enterprise they are in, or are now in a loss-making situation.

That is the challenge facing the Minister for Agriculture in this Estimate. The farmers are awaiting a response from the Minister to the challenge in this first Estimate of 1986. They want to see what will be done for the industry to help it to survive in the months ahead. I do not say this by way of political ridicule or criticism, but I am extremely disappointed that the Minister's Estimate did not put forward one positive proposal to help those farm families to survive during the remainder of this year and into the future.

The second consideration relates to the importance of agriculture as a national industry and how it fits into the overall scheme for national development, if we have such a scheme at present. There is no point in the Minister paying lip service to the importance of agriculture to the country and the employment which it generates, if he allows a situation to develop in which those engaged in the base industry, the farmers, are being forced by diminishing profits to seriously reconsider their position. Many enterprises make a zero profit and in some instances they are making a loss. With the possible exception of the dairying sector, almost every other sector, be it beef, cereals, or whatever, is making a very low margin of profit, or, depending on the level of borrowing, making a loss.

When we know that industry is basic to the future development of the country and that so many thousands of jobs are dependent on a successful and expanding agricultural industry, how can the Minister come here without a blueprint or plan deliberately geared towards salvaging that industry? Are we to allow this industry to collapse in 1986? We are knocking on the door of destruction. Are we to allow the industry to disintegrate totally and along with it the thousands of jobs associated with the servicing of this industry in which so many people find valuable employment? This Estimate is of importance to more people than farmers. It is important to the economy and to the people engaged in servicing that vast area of agricultural enterprises.

There is no point in talking about what happened in the past, but we all regret that the agricultural industry has been brought to its present low level. We have an obligation to the people who, as a result of the depression in agriculture over the past two or three years, find themselves in serious financial difficulties. The Government must do something positive to come to their rescue. Despite the efforts made in the past in restructuring loans, for which I thank the Minister — always liking to give credit where credit is due — many sound, genuine, hard-working farmers who borrowed in good times to invest in the development of the industry, now find themselves unable to service their borrowing and their debts.

This nation owes something to those people who were prepared to put borrowed money into this development and take a chance in the national interest. They are in an impossible situation now and, in an agricultural country, the Government must find a solution to their problems. There is no use in explaining why this cannot be done. We are either serious about agriculture, or we are not. We will either let those farmers go to the wall, or we will try to salvage their position and that of their families. I am disappointed that there is absolutely nothing in this Estimate which provides any ray of hope. There is absolutely no reference to the plight of the farmers who borrowed to develop the agricultural industry.

By way of a defence of the situation in which agriculture finds itself the Minister put forward the case that the whole problems was over-production, world production and European production. I acknowledge that there is over-production in a number of agricultural commodities, but I do not accept that the over-production in Ireland, as a member of the EC, is as bad as it is made out to be. One must bear in mind that in 1985 224,000 tonnes of dairy products were imported into the European Community. Why did we join the European Community? We joined because it provided a market and because it provided an opportunity for expansion. We thought, and were led to believe, that the interest of agricultural producers within the Community would be protected and would get preferential treatment. Yet we have the evidence of 224,000 tonnes of dairy products being imported into the European Community. Apart from that, 80,000 tonnes of dairy products are being exported from New Zealand into Britain. We in Ireland have to pay that price.

Dairying is the backbone of the entire livestock industry. We have not got the consideration which we deserve within the European Community as a small developing agricultural nation. The whole concept of the Treaty of Rome is being undermined because of the way that small developing nations like Ireland are being treated. When we joined the European Community we were told that special consideration would be given to the problems and difficulties of developing nations. We now know that many of our European partners had their agricultural industry developed to a far greater extent than it is developed in Ireland at present. As a small nation we now find that we have to carry the same restrictions as those well developed, large agricultural economies who were there long before we joined the Community.

I am worried about the development of the livestock industry. Once we have a situation where the dairy herd and the breeding herd are declining, then we are on the road to totally undermining the entire livestock industry.

The Deputy has less than four minutes left.

It is hardly necessary for me to bring to the notice of the House the importance of the livestock industry. Apart from its importance and its relevance to farms and farm families, it is important in terms of job creation and exports. This is something which does not need to be developed here, because, everybody knows its value. When we talk about national development we like to pay lip service to the importance of the livestock industry in the economy. We do it glibly and almost automatically. I say to the Minister that the beef industry is on its knees at present. There are many beef farmers who borrowed to develop their beef enterprises and who cannot now service the loans they borrowed. More important still, the level of profitability in beef is either at zero or is in a loss making situation if, for example, the farmer in question has very high borrowings.

I had the pleasure last week of attending with the Minister of State, Deputy Hegarty, the opening of a very modern meat plant in Rathdowney. It was extremely satisfying for me as a Deputy for that area to see the large number of people employed in that extremely valuable processing industry. As I walked through the boning halls of that industry one thought dominated my entire consideration. That was that the producers, the people who are supplying the raw material to keep that industry in operation, were in a loss making situation. I ask the Minister what is he going to do for the beef industry? There is nothing in his speech or in the Estimate which he put before the House tonight which will in any way come to the rescue of the beef producer, who is basic to the development of our national economy. There is no use in giving lip service to it. We need to have positive proposals in relation to the development of that aspect of the economy. I am extremely disappointed that there is nothing in the Estimate to deal with it.

The Deputy has one minute left.

In one minute I would briefly like to bring to the Minister's notice the serious situation existing for cereal producers. The Minister will offer the defence that there is overproduction of cereals in Europe. There is a surplus of 15 million tonnes in the European Community. On the other side of that coin there are 13.5 million tonnes imported into the Community. When will the Community look after its own members? When will it give priority to the people who subscribe to the Treaty of Rome and who want to see a Common Agricultural Policy maintained in this country? I suggest to the Minister that there is not a surplus of grain production in Europe; or, if there is a surplus there, it is because of the large volume of imports from outside countries.

The Minister and his colleagues have a responsibility to protect the interests of the farmers of Europe. But the Minister has a particular responsibility to look after the interests of this small, developing agricultural nation. That is one of the challenges which faces him in 1986. Whatever he is not prepared to offer in the Estimate before us, he has a duty to ensure that the plight of Irish farmers be brought sufficiently strongly to the notice of his colleagues in Europe. If he leaves it to the end of this year I can foretell that there will be many hundreds of farmers who will not be in existence in 1987 because they will not have the finances to keep their small farms in operation.

Listening to Deputy Hyland's speech of doom and gloom across the House——

A speech of reality.

Let us not have any interruptions.

——one would think that it was his party who put agriculture on a sound footing. I can remind Deputy Hyland that it was the Fine Gael Party who laid the foundation stone for a successful agricultural industry.

Deputy Sheehan should not talk about the foundation stone. He should talk about the future.

I will remind Deputy Hyland that agriculture is the cornerstone in the foundation of our economy.

Lip service.

We cannot have interruptions. Deputy Hyland made a speech and he was not interrupted once.

Deputy Hyland's party completely ignored the demands of the farming organisations. His party kept the farmers of Ireland on the cold pavements outside Dáil Éireann for two weeks while they, in their ministerial positions, walked in over their bodies as they lay after a night's sleep on the cold slab of Merrion Street and Kildare Street. These things are not forgotten by the agricultural community. No matter what whitewash Deputy Hyland will try to put on it tonight there is no way that he can hide the fact that he and his party misled and ignored the demands of the farming organisations on that occasion.

The farmers can now judge for themselves.

I would also like to remind Deputy Hyland of the £20 million rescue package that was given this past winter to Irish farmers by our Minister for Agriculture, Deputy Austin Deasy. What about the silage grants and the fertiliser subsidy grants that were given during the autumn?

Everything is peanuts according to the Deputy but Fianna Fáil did not give very many peanuts to the farming community when they were in power. What about the increase in the ewe subsidy which our sheep farmers are now enjoying? What did the Fianna Fáil administration give to the sheep farmers? A meagre £7 per ewe. What about the increased beef cow grant? Fianna Fáil gave a miserable £12 per beef cow which is now £70.

I am not going to have this debate conducted on an argybargy basis. Every Deputy will get a hearing.

This man is provoking.

The truth can be very bitter but the truth is sincere. I can stand up here tonight and outline to my friends across the way what we have done for agriculture in the short period we have been in Government.

Tell us; we want to hear it.

Great strides took place in cattle, beef and sheep exports in 1985. Exports of beef products——

——to all markets in 1985 amounted to 267,000 tonnes, an increase of 23 per cent on the volume exported in 1984. Is this something to be sneezed at? Is not this progress in the right direction?

Not for farmers.

When were the Deputy's party able to talk about an increase of 23 per cent in beef exports? Not since the foundation of the State has this increase been achieved.

Producers are losing money. We are talking about agriculture.

If Deputy Hyland finds it impossible to restrain himself, he has no option but to leave the House or the Chair will have to act.

A Cheann Comhairle, rather than having to be in conflict with you all night, I will leave the House.

He does not want to listen to the truth because it is too bitter for him. That is what is wrong. What about exports of carcase lambs in 1985? They amounted to 23,200 tonnes, an increase of 36 per cent. When was that achieved by a Fianna Fáil Government? What about exports to the French market? They amounted to 20,000 tonnes or 86 per cent of total exports of lamb. Exports to Belgium accounted for a further 11 per cent or 2,500 tonnes. There is great potential for expanding our mutton and lamb industry. For the past ten to 15 years we have only skimmed the surface as far as that section of the agricultural industry is concerned. Thanks to the virile policy of the Minister for Agriculture and the Government we can look forward with confidence to a great increase in our sheep and lamb exports.

I would like to remind Deputies that we are told that by the end of the eighties, which is a mere four years away, the structural surpluses in beef in the EC will have been eliminated and a return to self sufficiency can be contemplated for the first time since 1979. The Minister for Agriculture had a hard battle to bring home an agreement to the agricultural community which is second to none.

I would also like to remind my friends on the other side of the House that what I have stated about the elimination of the structural surfaces in beef in the EC would suggest that the EC Commission could be more rational in their future long term policy on the EC beef industry. Despite this eventual return to self sufficiency seasonal surpluses can and will still occur, mainly in the autumn months. Therefore, it is necessary for our farmers to rotate the supply of beef to the market to ensure that seasonal surpluses do not occur.

Will the Deputy tell us how?

Deputy Kirk, please.

We can boast that our beef is of the best quality in the world. Our exporters should make an all out effort to explore new outlets on the Continent and further afield. With the advent of Spain into the EC I see no reason why our beef exporters cannot capitalise on the valuable and lucrative beef market which exists in Spain and the Canary Islands. For the past number of years Spain has been obtaining most of its beef imports from Argentia and other South American countries. Now that Spain has joined the EC it is most important that we make a breakthrough into that market. I ask our Minister for Agriculture to make every possible effort to ensure that we make that breakthrough.

If we market our products in a right and proper fashion, I have no doubt that the amount of beef which will need to go into intervention during the autumn months will be nil because the quality of Irish beef, as I said earlier, is of premier grade. Therefore, in a country such as the Federal Republic of Germany which has a population of almost 120 million people with over six million people living in West Berlin alone, there must and should be a vast outlet for our beef and meat exports. I visited West German supermarkets recently and I saw beef and meat products from all other exporting countries very visibly on sale. It was only on very rare occasions I saw a prime cut of Irish beef for sale in those supermarkets. We must seek a solution to this. I am firmly of the opinion that we could be exporting thousands of extra tonnes of meat products to the Federal Republic of Germany and other European countries.

I would also like to draw the attention of the Minister to the huge amount of vegetables which are being imported. We must diversify our agricultural activities. With our climate, we are the most suitable country in Europe for growing vegetables. I cannot see why our farmers are not capitalising more on the growing of vegetables. It is costing us millions of pounds to import vegetables each year. Tonight, it was brought to my notice——

The Deputy is exaggerating.

——that at least 2,500 tonnes of Cyprus potatoes are being unloaded in Derry at present. Many of those potatoes will find their way across the Border if we do not take stringent measures to keep them out. I can tell the House that there is a ship of 1,400 tonnes at present on the high seas bound for Dundalk and another of 2,200 tonnes bound for Dublin carrying over 6,000 tonnes of new potatoes. I should warn the Minister that, before the week expires, our potato growers will be putting their product on the home market. It is vital that we stop the importation of new potatoes to give our own growers an opportunity to get a decent price for theirs.

If we are to have a viable agricultural industry we must protect the interests of our farming community, and ensure that they get fair play. They are confronted with a time problem as far as the production of new potatoes is concerned because our climatic conditions do not permit their production as early as in Mediterranean countries. However, their quality is second to none when they do appear on our market.

I dislike the moves afoot in the EC to squeeze out the small farmer. The large co-operatives are becoming bigger daily which means that farmers in general are losing contact with their co-operatives. They now constitute a number, somewhere between one and 6,000 in a computer. That is not the Ireland Sir Horace Curzon Plunkett envisaged. I know it is the age of the large combine, the multinationals and the multiplier, but it is very unfair that the Irish small farmer should be squeezed out of existence.

The Minister might extend the disadvantaged areas scheme, which has constituted a vital cog in the wheel of agricultural development. I know some of our small farmers along the western seaboard from Cork to Donegal are very critical of the fact that many areas along that coast have not been included in it's provisions, areas which are poorer by far than many others that have been included. In the renegotiation discussions in Brussels the Minister should make every possible effort to have as much of our land included in that scheme as possible. When one remembers that the Germans were successful in having huge portions of their land included, surely we can make an even better case for ourselves for an extension of that scheme?

More aid should also be given for improving our mountain pastures and the division of mountain commonages. Those pastures have been starved of manure and lime. The Minister would do well to initiate a scheme to improve the fertility of those mountain pastures which would be enhanced enormously if the soil were improved. The cost of fertilisers constitutes a prohibitive factor for the poorer farmers. The Minister should examine closely the possibility of controlling the prices of fertilisers because, since such controls were removed, they have escalated. There is need for strict supervision in that respect.

It is important also that our farmers diversify their methods of farming. For example, we see imported cheese in every supermarket in the country — cheese with onion, ham, chives, peppers, crab, lobster, salmon, all the produce of the Federal Republic of Germany and of Denmark. Why cannot we capitalise on that lucrative market? We lag behind terribly as far as cheese production is concerned. When we assumed office, with inflation running at approximately 24 per cent, our farmers encountered major problems. What good was the £100 they got then? It was worth only £76 taking inflation into account. Today the £100 they receive will be worth the full £100 without any reduction for inflation.

No farmers have suffered more in the past 12 months than those in my constituency, which fact was highlighted throughout the spring by the number of cattle that died. It was unfortunate that moneys remained unspent from last year's Estimate while at the same time, huge numbers of cattle died in County Sligo and, in particular, County Leitrim. I attended a meeting convened by the Irish Farmers' Association in Drumshanbo on Monday evening, 9 June last, when farmers generally expressed their concern. I suppose that Monday evening was one of the last of the bad weather we have experienced this year. Thankfully the weather has improved since, giving the farmers in that part of the country a chance at long last to put their cattle out on grass.

Last year the Minister introduced the feed voucher scheme, an excellent scheme but whose provisions did not go far enough. A farmer who had 75 per cent of his feed did not quality for the voucher scheme. Unfortunately, last year many farmers had 75 per cent of their feed but the quality was not taken into account. How could silage made in September and October be as good as that made in June or July? I spoke to the Minister on numerous occasions about the feed voucher scheme. It was an excellent scheme for people who qualified since it helped them to buy meal for their cattle which got them through the winter months and into the late spring.

I welcome the decision announced by the Minister of State to extend the scheme to all mountain areas. There will be a grant for helicopters to spread fertilisers on the mountains. The grant for fencing has been available for some time and I welcome the increase. I hope that every farmer can qualify for this scheme without too much form-filling. It can do nothing but good for disadvantaged areas, whether in the mountains of West Cork or the Ox Mountains of County Sligo. These hard-pressed farmers lost a considerable number of their sheep owing to the bad weather.

Deputy Prendergast mentioned the drainage of the Mulcair River. Almost four years ago the then Tánaiste and Minister for Finance, Deputy Mac Sharry, began the Bonet scheme in County Leitrim. That scheme of arterial drainage was to last five years and then the drainage of the Arrow and the Owenmore rivers would be undertaken. The farmers in these areas are very concerned because they have been devastated by flooding. I know the Minister visited that part of County Sligo last year since I met him there. Because of the scaledown in the amount of money available to complete the Bonet drainage scheme, I believe it will be years before work commences on the Arrow and the Owenmore. I appeal to the Minister to make the necessary finance available to complete the drainage of the Bonet, get on with the drainage of the Arrow and the Owenmore and give the farmers a chance to farm their land to the full potential.

That is a matter for the Office of Public Works.

I know, but when Deputy Prendergast spoke about it earlier he was not pulled up by the Chair.

He did not ask the Minister for the money.

I hope that many farmers, especially part-time farmers, will qualify for the farm improvement programmes. Under the old farm modernisation scheme any body qualified, regardless of income. We all know that the income limit for a farmer in a disadvantaged area to qualify for headage payments is too low. One of the points put to us at the meeting in Drumshanbo was that a part-time farmer should be able to earn a realistic industrial wage and still qualify for a grant in a disadvantaged area. I ask the Minister to raise the income limit to at least £9,000 and enable these part-time farmers to qualify.

I would also urge the Minister to double the headage grant this year to farmers in disadvantaged areas. I know from the NCF co-op that they have tripled the amount of feedstuffs sold to farmers this year. The Minister should make sure that these farmers will be able to pay back the money they owe to the co-ops. Millions are owed by farmers. The co-ops did not refuse the farmers who came to them for feedstuffs to keep their cattle alive, even though they knew a number of them were unable to pay.

I hope agriculture will continue to be our principal industry for many years to come. It is vital to do everything possible to preserve the way of life of our farmers. The few proposals I put to the Minister are designed to have this effect, especially in the disadvantaged areas. Along the western seaboard we have the highest rainfall in any part of Europe. That was proved this spring. The job of a Minister for Agriculture is not easy when facing the tycoons in Europe but we should be getting everything possible for Irish farmers, especially when grants are funded pound for pound by Europe. We must avail of everything that is going in order to build up our greatest natural resources.

I hope the Minister will consider my point about the many part time farmers who will be making applications under the farm improvement schemes. They are people who go to work from 8 o'clock in the morning until 5 or 6 o'clock in the evening. They rise early in the morning and do half a day's work before going to their jobs. They also work very late into the evening. Public representatives must continuously make representations on behalf of part time farmers who, unfortunately, do not qualify for assistance under any of the schemes. Any Minister would be doing a good day's work if he permitted those farmers to obtain grants under the agricultural scheme.

The Estimate provides us with an opportunity to examine the performance of the agricultural industry in the last 12 months and consider its prospects for the future. Tonight's debate is being conducted against the background of one of the worst crises ever faced by the industry. It is certainly the worst crisis since we joined the EC. We have had a combination of factors, the weather, the unsatisfactory treatment meted out to the farmers in the Community negotiation halls, the difficulties created by imports from outside the Community that are flooding our markets and the difficulty with our production costs, that spell a gloomy prospect for our farmers in the short term.

Our principal lines of production — dairying, beef production, cereal growing, pig production and horticulture — have been bogged down by excessive production costs in recent years. Some of them have been affected by a fall off in demand while others have suffered because of Community restrictions, particularly in dairying. On the domestic scene exorbitant interest rates have bedevilled the industry for many years. Following the last EMS realignment we looked forward to interest rates dropping to single figures and stabilising there. We were told that following the drop in energy prices interest rates would fall and farmers would benefit. Sadly, that has not happened. Many farmers are in financial difficulties and there is little hope for them in the foreseeable future.

Many farmers borrowed some years ago when everything in the garden was rosy and prospects were good. At that time the price for agricultural land was very high and farmers entered into development programmes with the prospect of good days ahead and satisfactory prices. They did not foresee having any difficulty repaying their loans but the good days have come to an end. Even our best farmers are troubled by financial problems and they will find it hard to get themselves out of them.

The introduction of the super-levy was disastrous for Ireland. The planned expansion in the dairy sector has come to a halt. We were allowed a slight increase in output but the confidence of the dairy farmers was rocked. Those farmers, because of the nature of the enterprises, must plan long term but they cannot do so. Processing plants are under utilised because the growth of the dairying industry has been stymied. Those groups invested heavily in expansions programmes but are in great difficulty now.

The restriction on the number of calves born here will affect the throughput to meat plants and the export of cattle on the hoof. The Minister is trying to encourage farmers to get involved in suckler cow enterprises as an alternative to dairying but I do not see anything on the horizon that will give the economic return to encourage farmers to get involved in suckler calf rearing. The agricultural industry would benefit if suckler calf rearing was an alternative to dairying but I do not see that happening. The margin of profit needed has not been there in the past and I do not think it will be there in the future.

Many of the problems that bedevil farming today stem from the decision of the Community to permit factory type farming in other member states such as the Netherlands. Huge dairy enterprises prospered on cheap cereal substitutes imported from outside the Community. We have been badly affected by that. We have had to deal with the decision to permit New Zealand dairy products into the Community. Britain negotiated a special derogation for New Zealand when they joined. It is extraordinary that our dairy farmers must allow their enterprises stagnate to facilitate dairy farmers in New Zealand and the huge factory type farms on the Continent that import cheap cereal substitutes. There is something wrong with an economic structure that tolerates that.

All enterprises in the agricultural industry must be able to plan for the future with confidence but the profit margin in the beef sector in recent years to allow people expand and meet repayments on the capital investment involved has not been there. The future for those involved in beef production is not good. It is easy to pretend that there are easy solutions but I do not think they exist. Proper research and development programmes are not being carried out and there is no financial commitment to research and development. There has been a serious cutback in the ESRI budget which inevitably will reflect itself in reduced research in agriculture.

The importance of having a forward looking breeding programme has not been appreciated, and the decision to terminate the AI subsidy was bad. The Minister should seriously consider reintroducing it. Figures indicate that there has been a change around in breeding programmes by many farmers. AI centres had the know-how and the range of breeding stock at their disposal to improve our future herds and they had the wherewithal to replenish breeding stock when required. They should be in the vanguard of a proper breeding programme for our dairying and beef herds. The Government should introduce a type of subsidy that would be an incentive to our farmers to introduce more continental breeds. That should have been done earlier, but the incentive was not provided and I earnestly ask the Minister to see what potential there is there to help our future beef industry.

Most Deputies referred to the pig industry and to the need to rationalise the production, slaughter and processing of pigs. There is no doubt that rationalisation is necessary in this sector. The performance of those involved in the industry has been commendable from the point of view of production but that has not been matched by a similar performpoint of view of production but that has not been matched by a similar performance in slaughtering, processing and marketing. The capital investment needed is beyond those involved in processing and there is a very strong case to be made for the Minister to consider a programme of aid to help people to rationalise before the industry is allowed to die. Pork products can be freely brought into our markets because people in mainland Europe have the wherewithal and the know-how to produce, slaughter and process their pigmeat. Here we cannot produce what the consumer needs and will find ourselves flooded out of the market if we do not get our act together.

Of all sectors in agriculture, pig production is the most labour intensive and it creates more downstream jobs than anything I can think of. Consequently, it would be a great pity if measures are not taken in time to get the industry properly geared for the future. At the moment the slaughtering facilities we have do not allow us to export our pigment to the US, for instance. That market is not as attractive today as it was but there is still some potential there. We must look at all these matters seriously if we are to develop our economy as a whole and our pig industry, which would provided jobs for the many thousands who are coming through our education system.

I am seriously concerned about our glasshouse industry and the crisis it has been in for so long. We have had the ridiculous situation of hundreds of acres of glasshouses lying derelict or under utilised while we have imported tomatoes being freely marketed here in supermarkets and other retail outlets. It is madness to have those imports while we have so much potential in areas like North County Dublin, Wexford, and Waterford where glasshouses are lying derelict or under utilised. There is something radically wrong when that is so.

Our marketing technique in this sector has been bad for too long. The producer group grant scheme has not been sufficently attractive to encourage more people to become engaged in the industry. Surely it is not beyond the wit of the Government to examine this and renegotiate the grant scheme in the EC. We have a small but viable industry which could be expanded and developed if the incentives were provided. If this does not happen soon the industry will be dead.

Some time ago the Government introduced a special grant scheme to encourage people to use solid fuel boilers, but the money required was beyond many of the people who would be interested. They just continued glasshouse production in the warm months and forgot all about it in the off season when the demand is greatest. It is questionable whether the Government at that time would have been wiser to subsidise fuel oil to keep people in business until better days came. Now that the price of oil has stabilised we may think that the investment in solid fuel boilers was unwise. However, in the long term it may have been a wise thing to do.

I should like to deal briefly with difficulties in regard to land structure, the many small uneconomic holdings in Ireland and the question of inheritance and retirement. There is no doubt that Irish agriculture has remained in a state of underdevelopment because of land structure problems. Various attempts were made to encourage land leasing and elderly farmers to pass land to their heirs. There is a problem in regard to land mobility but we have not got an answer to that dilemma. We have not got our under used land moving to young people at a rate that would be good for the industry. Small holdings are uneconomical and we have too many part time farmers, which is not the most efficient way to utilise our land. We would be better with more medium sized viable farms and with greater numbers employed on them. Unfortunately the kind of policies pursued in that area will not lead us to that point.

We are debating this Estimate at a very serious time for Irish agriculture, probably one of the most serious periods in the history of our country from the agricultural and economic points of view. We are also debating it in the wake of the inclement weather we experienced last winter. We cannot escape the fact that this Government have failed miserably to come forward with any positive measures to alleviate the problems of Irish farmers or to make an impression in Europe to help in our negotiations on behalf of Irish farmers. By their inaction the Government have been responsible for an erosion of confidence in the agricultural industry. As a country we depend on our primary industry, namely, agriculture, and this must be acknowledged by the Government and by everyone in the country. If we have not economic growth based on a solid foundation in agriculture, we cannot hope to alleviate the economic difficulties facing us.

We must examine what is happening in our country. In the past three or four years there has been a marked exodus from agriculture. Because of the economic situation many farmers have no option but to dispose of their assets and deal with the financial institutions and having disposed of their assets, many farmers have nothing other than their house and an acre or two of land. Thus, they are totally dependent on the social welfare system. Deputy Connaughton, the Minister of State, knows that in the constituency we represent there are many farms for sale. This is because the younger generation have no confidence in the future of agriculture. They consider their future is in some other industry, either here or overseas. As a result, good, solid agricultural land that has given a livelihood to many families and has made such a contribution to the local and to the national economy is being sold, causing a further erosion of the confidence that is so badly needed at this time. There is an exodus of farmers from the land across Europe and it is essential that the future of agriculture in the EC context be looked at critically at this time.

This Government were presented with a number of opportunities in the past two years to renegotiate our position in the EC. They had an opportunity to emphasise to the Council of Ministers and to the Commission the seriousness of the situation here. We are an island nation and are remote from European and world markets. We have distinctly different types of soil in our country, we have different climatic conditions in the western part of the country as distinct from the southern and eastern parts and the topography throughout the country varies enormously. Above all, our farmers have not achieved maximum productivity. All of these factors could have enabled our Government to renegotiate our position in Europe. They could have made the case that Ireland should be treated as a distinctly unique country.

When Fianna Fáil were in Government and when they were conducting negotiations in Europe, they made it clear we were a unique nation and that we needed specialist assistance from Europe. We succeeded in getting the whole country treated as a disadvantaged region and certain grants were made available to us. However, this Government have only succeeded in getting short-term schemes and they have allowed other schemes to lapse while they were trading for other benefits. There has been no real effort to stimulate agricultural productivity. Farmers' incomes have not increased and confidence in the agricultural community has been eroded. Above all, they have not made the case in Europe that Irish agriculture is suffering severely and deserves the support of the Community more than ever before.

When we consider the exodus of people from the farming lands of Europe, we must question the commitment of our European counterparts to the Common Agricultural Policy and to the Treaty of Rome on which that policy is based. The EC was set up to ensure equality of opportunity, equal rights to markets, sufficient productivity and sufficient support mechanisms throughout the Community so that all would have an equal income.

In the recent past West Germany have been able to negotiate their position and much of the fine land of that country is now included in the scheme for severely disadvantaged areas. Let us contrast that with the situation here, where not all of the west of Ireland is classified as severely disadvantaged, or where not all of any particular area is so classified. Germany makes a major contribution to the EC but according to the Treaty of Rome they have a duty to make that contribution. As an independent State we must have a distinct voice in the negotiations to ensure that other countries realise what is happening here. We must be given an opportunity to bring our productivity levels to those of our counterparts in Europe. We cannot have factory farms as in the case of Denmark, Holland and other countries. We cannot have cheap imports, we are not close to the markets and we do not have the benefit of cheap food products for our livestock and our dairying industry. Other countries have the benefit of all of those aids. We are not in that privileged situation and this must be brought home repeatedly to our European counterparts. We must repeat that fact at all meetings until the other countries appreciate the distinct disadvantages we have and the serious situation facing us. There must be a commitment in Europe to help us.

In the past few years Britain have been able to renegotiate their position and they have obtained major refunds from the Community. Surely that is not why they entered the EC? They were slow about joining but they knew what they were doing. They knew the conditions of the game, they knew the economic environment in which they would operate. Yet, they had the clout and they were able to get massive refunds. On the other hand, Ireland is getting only a small contribution. Perhaps we are getting a major contribution per capita but, in comparison with the disadvantages we have and the difficulties facing us, the contribution from Europe in the past few years has diminished considerably.

Recently Spain and Portugal joined the Community. Then was a good opportunity for our Government to point out to the member states the many disadvantages under which we operate. The Government could have questioned the entry of the Iberian Peninsula until such time as we got our own house in order, and until the assistance and guarantees to this country were spelled out so that we could avail of them.

As far as I am concerned, the will or the commitment is not in Europe to alleviate our difficulties. It appears that we are not in a position to make an impact in the Community. This stems back to 1983, when this Government came into office. During their first year they suspended the farm modernisation scheme. That created a serious situation for this country. It eroded the confidence of farmers, it diminished the incentive to expand and develop and it created an attitude in Europe where it seemed that this country did not need European assistance nor was it prepared to avail of the European assistance which was readily available. That was the turning point in agricultural development in this country in the last decade. We eroded our negotiating position. We eroded our right to make a case. We were not even prepared to accept what was already there, apart from making a further case to ensure that more money would be made available under the farm modernisation scheme. Not alone did we lose money under the suspension of that scheme, but a number of Irish farmers who had projects in hand, who had borrowed money, who had started to prepare a plan in the knowledge that there would be a guaranteed grant available at the end of the day, found themselves in serious financial difficulties. We then had the recession, inclement weather, and instability in the market place; and all this taken together has created chaos for our farmers.

With a plethora of propaganda, with trumpet-blasting announcements, this Government announced schemes which would be introduced and when they would be introduced; but when we got them two or three years later they were not what we expected and in many cases we never even saw them. The AI scheme, the lime scheme and many other schemes, which were very important for farming, were costing the country very little, a total of £7 million or £8 million — a net contribution of £3.6 million or £4 million from the Exchequer and a similar contribution from Europe. These schemes were making a fantastic contribution to agricultural productivity, they ensured that the land was right and that we had top quality livestock. But all these schemes were terminated. That totally destroyed our negotiating credibility and changed the attitude of our European counterparts in the Council of Ministers and in the Commission to the serious position in Ireland.

Is it any wonder that Irish farmers are totally frustrated and have lost confidence in this Government? They are only waiting for the day when there will be a Government which will give them a good ear, a positive response, will represent them in Europe in a dignified manner and ensure that we will get what is available in Europe to help develop farming and will, therefore, be to the betterment of the country in general.

Farmers owe £150 million to the financial institutions. That is the sum the two biggest financial institutions wrote off in bad debts last year. Today our farmers still owe all the institutions £150 million. On top of that they owe £70 million to the co-operatives. The arrears owed to the Land Commission are the highest on record. When we take all these things into account we see how serious the position is. As of 30 April a total of £2,923,000 was owed by 33,739 farmers — in round figures, 34,000 farmers owed £3 million — to the Land Commission. Farmers all over the country, in the west in Meath, in Wexford and in Cork, borrowed to buy land from the Land Commission at £3,000 or £3,500 an acre in full confidence that they would be able to meet their commitments, but because of an erosion of confidence and a depletion in the market place, they now find they cannot meet their commitments. These farmers have been dealing with the Minister of State, Deputy Connaughton. I know little or nothing can be or has been done for these people, but this should not be allowed to happen. Farmers who owe £13,000 or £14,000 are being told that if they pay £6,000 or £7,000 the financial institutions will reconsider their position as far as the remainder of the money is concerned.

A man in my constituency has assets of £180,000, £60,000 liabilities and owes £13,000 arrears to the Land Commission. The Minister has responsibility for the Land Commission and there is no reason why they cannot restructure those borrowings over the working life of this farmer, until he reaches 65 or 66 years of age. There is no reason for not restructuring the borrowings of the majority of farmers and giving them a breathing space. Again, I appeal to the Minister to do something about this. I have been involved with financial institutions for a number of years and know there are no good reasons for not restructuring the borrowings of farmers who have first class assets.

I know a man with a quota of 34,000 gallons, assets of £180,000 and liabilities of £60,000. He is only 38 years of age. There is no reason for not restructuring his borrowings over the next 30 years. He would be well able to repay £6,000 per annum on one loan to one institution. The ACC is a semi-State body under the total direction of this Government, and is popularly known as the farmers' bank. But this organisation has failed farmers over the years because it is too strict and inflexible. It will write-off farmers and put them on the black list; that is condemning farmers to total disaster, to an exodus from agriculture. There is no reason why the Minister cannot direct this organisation to restructure loans of farmers in financial difficulties.

The Minister of State has responsibility for the recent farm programme and installation grants but the majority of farmers in the west do not qualify for these grants. In the west winter lasts six weeks longer than in the rest of the country. Therefore the number of standard man days under this grant scheme should be different in the west than in the rest of the country. For example, a man with 20 cows and a milking machine will not qualify for these grants but a man hand milking the same 20 cows will qualify. Is that not totally illogical? That is very unsuitable for farmers in the west because many of them have 20 cows or fewer. I am asking the Minister of State to have another look at these schemes and to readjust them. We all know that when schemes come into operation loopholes appear, but we must be flexible and change the inflexible attitude in the Department. Many young farmers in dairying find themselves in a very serious situation because of the quotas which were not delivered by the Minister in the recent negotiations.

I am worried that there was a reduction this year of 2 per cent in the budget available to An Foras Talúntais, which in real terms is a reduction of 7 per cent. I tell the Minister of State, Deputy Connaughton, that we do not want to see the sheep project, the mixed farming project under the Agricultural Institute at Blindwell or the activities in Belclare either closed down or eroded next year or the year after as happened at Maam Cross a couple of years ago. The Agricultural Institute have done tremendous work for this country and have not been given that opportunity under this Government. Under the farm taxation scheme they should have used the institute's expertise. I am asking the Minister, the Minister of State and the Government tonight to stop cutting back on agricultural development, to ensure proper investments and proper incentives for AFT and ACOT, the agencies that are there to service agriculture, and that, above all, there are incentives and support mechanism for the farmers to sustain them on the land.

Deputy John Wilson and he has 20 minutes.

My contribution will be bitty and unco-ordinated because of pressure of time. I was away from the House. I have some remarks to make. I have read not all of the Minister's speech but as much of it as I could get through and I find no great sursum corda in it or any great message of hope so necessary for the agricultural industry at present. The Minister states that there was a 10 per cent drop in incomes in 1985. It is well for the House to be aware of one of the dangers of statistics in this regard. The 10 per cent is a lumped figure. I am not challenging it; I am saying simply that the principles upon which it is based very often do not apply to individual cases. As it is an average, you can take it that many people, very often those who can least afford it, have been affected to a far greater extent than the 10 per cent drop the Minister mentions.

I had occasion to speak for four minutes here in the House on a motion put down by our spokesman, Deputy Noonan of Limerick, with regard to the bad weather and how it affected my area. The briefing which the public representatives got from ACOT in my county was thorough and of the highest quality. We know that the bad weather in that area had disastrous effects and that small farmers who have been encouraged to increase production have mortgaged their creamery cheques to the end of 1987. The co-operatives who enabled them to do that deserve the praise of this House. They adopted an attitude which was not as harsh as that of the financial institutions, particularly the banks, and consequently kept people from total disaster when they needed that relief very much. I would like to put that on the record of the House. However, how are those people going to live when they will not have the substances of their cheques coming to them right through the remainder of 1986 and 1987? I agree with the Minister that we do not know what the weather will bring in 1986, but people should realise, particularly those who are au fait with what happens in farming, that a farmer can be up and doing, energetic, working seven days a week, doing everything right in accordance with proper principles and in the end he can suffer defeat. That cannot happen in any other business and it is well that this House should advert to that fact. If the rules are followed, if proper procedures are adopted in most other businesses, at least the business can be saved; but a farmer can do all the things properly, apply the most modern scientific principles in his business and still go down because he is totally dependent on the weather.

We should think back to 1972 when we campaigned to join the EC and our thesis was that the CAP would sustain our economy and that there would be damage in other areas. I remember quoting Parnell to farmers in late 1972 or early 1973, telling them to keep a firm grip on their homesteads because they were increasing in value as time went on. That was true only in the context of the maintenance of the CAP and I am afraid serious damage has been done to it. We are blaming the Minister and he will have to accept part of the blame anyway for that because we are only at the beginning of the attack on the CAP. The UK is going to take over now in the Council of Ministers and we have never seen an attack like the one that is coming up now. We should be prepared to face it bluntly with whatever weapons. We are weak numerically but we have certain structures in the Treaty of Rome that will help us and we should use them to the full even if we are accused of being impossible. Do not forget that the present British Prime Minister was regarded as outside the pale of all reason when she fought about the contributions to the EC but, damn it, whatever you say about her, she stuck with it and succeeded in the end. We will have to do that regarding the CAP, particularly in the phase that is starting now. We have lost a battle or two; we must not lose the war, and this House should be alerted to that. We gambled in 1972 on the basis of the CAP.

We had a car assembly industry at the time. We knew that that would be phased out and we were told that we would have cheaper cars. That would make a cat laugh in the context of the price of cars here today. We had a boot and shoe industry and a textile industry, all those areas have been hammered and lost. West Germany is very good at producing cars and she has 320 million people now among whom to compete for the sale of her cars. Italy is very good at making shoes and has 320 million people to whom to sell her shoes. We are very good in agriculture and particularly in some areas of it. Despite consumer preference on that as the Minister mentioned, we are very good there and we should concerntrate on our strength in that area even specialising in organic farming or whatever. We have the circumstances in which we can specialise. The Commission are becoming very arrogant at times and they have their role in the Treaty of Rome, but in more areas than agriculture they are developing certain fascist tendencies that both the European Parliament and the Council of Ministers will have to watch very carefully in future. We could win in the EC only if the CAP was maintained in its pristine figure from which we gained advantage early on.

I heard the Minister of State, Deputy Connaughton, a genial, civilised man, speaking in my constituency about West Germany paying many of the bills and not being satisfied. I have pointed out already why they should be satisfied with economic conditions in the EC. They have a powerfully big market for their industrial products. When we were last discussing agriculture, that very week The Economist was quoting the cost of the butter mountain, part of which we were selling off to the USSR then, as a couple of hundred million dollars. That 80,000 tonnes were coming from where? — West Germany. Eleven thousand tonnes were coming from the UK and only 9,000 were coming from this country.

As I have said, we are good at producing beef, lamb, milk and butter and we do not need soya or manioc or other factory type feeds for our cattle. Along that line we should try to convey to the Council of Ministers, the commission and the Parliament that, if the main purpose of the EC was to bring up marginal areas to the same economic strength as the central areas, then we see that as a way of doing it.

We lost out on the assembly of cars, although admittedly it was an artificial industry and people wanted to get rid of it in the belief that they would get cheaper cars, but that did not happen because of Government action. We have lost employment in firms which produced industrial goods, cars, shoes and clothes and, therefore, we should be allowed to specialise in an area in which we are successful.

In today's newspapers I saw a report of huge bank profits, although they pay peanuts to anybody who is lucky enough to have money on deposit. They charge very high rates to the unfortunate farmers who look for money at present. Bank rates are coming down but not quickly enough for borrowers. I often recall what the late Frank Aiken suggested in the thirties—of course he was called a Communist — the suggestion of forcing institutions to provide money for productive purposes at low rates of interest. Admittedly, you might run into trouble in regard to a free market economy and so on, but desperate situations require desperate remedies. I would not be beyond supporting a policy of that kind.

If countries were allowed to specialise in areas they are good at, there is a possibility of developing such a policy. The Commissioners are behaving very arrogantly in many ways and even ultra vires of the Treaty of Rome because they are supposed to be a kind of brains trust, an arsenal of ideas. The Parliament has power to dismiss them, although I know it would be reluctant to exercise such a power in the normal course of events.

The officials in the Department of Agriculture should go to West Germany now and look at the areas taken in by that country as a result of prices which were fixed in 1986. They should look at the land in Bavaria and report back. They already have elaborated a definition, for the purposes of taxation, of a certain type of acre. I forget the technical name for it but it is judged as a percentage of what the best acre in the country will produce. There should be freedom of movement and inspection. It is only the Russians and Americans who squabble about inspecting nuclear sites, we should be able to look at the areas in West Germany which have now been declared severely disadvantaged.

Today I received a small booklet in relation to the Land Commission. It was disastrous for my area to do away with the commission and a recipe for denudation in certain areas of my constituency and of the west in general. The Land Commission should be retained with powers to possess land and to distribute it in accordance with the cold judgments which they used for 100 years. I know that it is difficult for the Minister to cope with across the board opposition from the UK and West Germany. When Schmidt was Chancellor we had better friends in West Germany than now, although he should have been more interested in the industrial worker and Chancellor Kohl should be interested in the farming community. The Minister should not lose heart because of constant opposition. Psychologically it must be difficult to keep fighting from a small base against the big battalions. However, it will have to be done now in the same way as the British Prime Minister, Margaret Thatcher, fought about contributions.

The Minister referred to a change in consumer preference but there is a lot of codswallop talked about that. The consumption of butter could be maintained despite all the jargon about its being bad for people. It is only bad for people who do not take exercise and who have a certain lifestyle. An energetic lifestyle will work off any hazards which may exist although these hazards have not been proven as well as the manufacturers of alternative products claim. I referred to this several times already, a different lifestyle will solve that problem and I do not think that any expert on health would disagree with that thesis.

The Minister said he is intent on encouraging processing. I am always very pleased to see a whole range of special cheeses from different parts of the country in delicatessens. The St. Killian cheese comes from Wexford. There is a Burren cheese and one from Cork. De Gaulle said something about a country with 157 cheeses, I cannot go through that lot.

He mentioned 365 cheeses, one for every day of the year.

I think that the figure is under 200. Anyway, he said it was difficult to run a country which produced so many cheeses. I should like to be part of a Government ruling a country with 100 or 50 cheeses, which is not the case at present. The Regata cheese was an excellent example of co-operation between University College, Cork and Mitchelstown. It was doing very well for a while but sales have now declined. I saw it in the market in Greece and the Greeks liked it. Southern Italians were also eating it.

I wish to refer to disease eradication. I put down a question recently regarding statistics on bovine TB and I was horrified at the reply. In regard to brucellosis, my county was far worse than County Monaghan. The farmers are appalled at what happened in regard to the eradication of bovine TB. If the Minister thinks that by withdrawing funds he will improve the position and can prove that, well and good, but I cannot see how that will work. Stern, tough financed action can be brought to bear on this very serious problem. It is a mess and the Public Expenditure Committee are looking at this matter, which gets more and more confusing as time goes by.

At one stage our lamb was received very well on the Paris market and was cherished as being succulent and something special. However, it has now gone down in the reckoning of the French market. I would be ruthless as far as exports to a market as prestigious as Paris is concerned. There is an obligation on a Government Department, Córas Tráchtála, or Córas Beostoic to do something about this.

In accordance with the thesis which I outlined, we should be allowed to get ahead with what we do best and others should be allowed to get ahead with what they do best. It should not be too difficult to co-ordinate. We had factory farms. There was big money available for cereals and there was big production in the East Anglia and north and north-west of Paris. When things level off and that kind of thing goes out, I might even see hope in restriction of production if the people involved in the factory farms got out and left more of a market for the Irish dairy industry in the future.

I am sorry I had not more time to prepare this. I just want to repeat the two basics I mentioned. First, a determined effort should be made to deal with the high interest rates small farmers have to cope with at the moment, having already mortgaged their future income for over a year in some instances. Second, if Germany can extend the severely disadvantaged areas we should face up to it and do it, and to hell with the consequences.

I hope the Minister appreciated what my colleague, Deputy Wilson, said. He clearly enunciated the problems of agriculture. I hope he will do something to remedy those problems which are devastating the agricultural scene in out island. It is sad that, at a time when other people are looking for increases in their income, farmers lost an average of 15 to 16 per cent in theirs. If that happened in any other sector of our society there would be a massive public outcry. This Government seem to have forgotten that we are primarily an agricultural nation and that, when agriculture goes badly, the whole economy is adversely affected. I am not just talking about the income which would accrue to farmers but about the spin-off effects which transcend the whole economic structure of the country; many people who are not intrinsically involved in agriculture itself do extremely well financially if agriculture is going well. The Minister has pleaded how well he has contested our case with his European fellow Ministers, but it is a fact of life which is acknowledged by most experts on the agricultural scene that the Government are presiding over the apparent dismantling of the Common Agricultural Policy and this will be grossly detrimental to the eventual recovery of agriculture here.

The Minister and his Government have not fought their way properly in Europe. He must stand up to his fellow Ministers, and be intransigent rather than defensive. If the Minister had fought in this way we would have done much better. The Common Agricultural Policy is being dismantled and if this happens it will wreck our agricultural prospects. I believe also that the banking institutes have been grossly irresponsible in their dealings with farmers. Not too long ago farmers armed with licences, from the same banks in many cases, were out bidding against each other and driving the price of agricultural land over the roof with the advisers advising the farmers how valuable the land would ultimately be, that £4,000 an acre was not unrealistic and would produce a profit in due course. Many farmers went ahead and purchased land at prices which were grossly high by present day standards.

Unfortunately, the same banks are now instituting proceedings against thousands of farmers. In my part of the country many farmers are receiving psychiatric treatment because of the effects of Government policy which has reduced their incomes so severely and because the banks are chasing them as if they were criminals. That is a sad day for the country. There is a lot of poverty as a result of the huge level of unemployment. What many people do not realise is that we have a new poor amongst whom are many farmers, some of whom bought land at hugely inflated prices and are having to pay back an inordinate amount of interest. They are not able to cope with this because their income has been reduced so much in the last few years. The Government should exercise pressure on the banks to lay off these people and stop crucifying them and give them a chance. With a better Government, which, hopefully, we will have in the not too distant future, those farmers will once again be able to pay their way and will not be reduced to the state of penury they are in now.

Deputy Wilson mentioned the disadvantaged areas. We all welcomed the change from the old system of defining disadvantaged areas so that now townlands are taken into account. But I would point out that many townlands are excluded. The Minister may regard south Tipperary as one of the wealthiest agricultural counties.

It is not the worst county, anyway.

While he lives down the road in a not too poor county, with reasonably good land, there are areas in south Tipperary where the land is very mountainy and boggy. One can have adjoining townlands one of which is regarded as disadvantaged and the other, should be so regarded, ignored. On his next visit to south Tipperary, I hope the Minister will do a mountain and bog tour and I could show him the discrepancies and anomalies that arise. He might then take me on a tour of Waterford to show me the magnificent job that he was able to do in his own county and constituency with regard to deciding on the disadvantaged areas. I admire the degree of expertise used in Waterford. I have no doubt that the Minister will get great political credit for it which I am sure he hopes will be turned to polling advantage in due course. I would like him to share these benefits with his less fortunate colleagues in adjoining counties who must suffer as a result of some of the decisions.

The Land Commission have now been reduced to such an ineffective status that they no longer operate as we knew them to. As a consequence, many thousands of acres of land are now going into the hands of people who are other than farmers and who will not use the land for agricultural purposes, or for purposes allied to and associated with that industry. This is rather sad.

With reference to the quota system, particularly in relation to milk, it is regrettable that, although the Minister promised us in 1984 that there would be no further reductions in the quota system, this promise has not been adhered to. This is another major reflection on the Government. I hope that the Minister will fight that issue more strenuously on his future European excursions. The reduction in the milk quotas has had a particularly adverse effect on many young developing farmers who had planned to avail of the opportunity to increase their productivity but who have been seriously disadvantaged financially by the reduction in the quota.

I am not sure if the Minister was taking credit for the fine weather. I was wondering if he was a better negotiator with the Almighty than he has been with his fellow colleagues in Europe. Thank God the weather is good. That will benefit agriculture, as the Minister said. He suggested that would be better than any aid support system. However, we need a considerable amount of support as well, much more than we have been getting. If the Minister is claiming credit for the fine weather, I hope that he will keep on his knees for a few months longer to ensure that we will have a better summer than last year's.

I hope he takes cognisance of the various points raised by Members on this side of the House, made in good faith in the interests of agriculture, not just for the sake of expressing political bias or gaining political advantage, These were made in a helpful fashion, to give some added inspiration, hoping that the Minister will recognise that when he makes these major steps to recover the agricultural economy, if he does it in the proper way, he will have the full support of Members on this side of the House. We all wish the agricultural economy to be restored to what it was in the past.

As there are no other Deputies offering to make contributions, we may now have five minutes interventions, If any Deputy wishes to avail of this. If not, I shall call on the Minister for Agriculture to reply.

(Limerick West): What policy has the Minister within his Department and what plans has he to improve the quality of the animals and ultimately the products which will be exported and to which he referred in his speech, particularly in regard to lamb? Would it be possible, even at this late stage, for him to reintroduce the AI subsidy so that farmers can have access to proven sires? These are now totally out of reach of small farmers because of the costs involved. With regard to the breeding Act brought in a couple of years ago by the Minister, Deputy Hegarty, concerning a special category of bulls, I hope the use of these bulls will be allowed for a couple of years. This is a welcome step in the right direction. We are now to a large extent breeding from dairy herds and the conformation is not as it should be. This is not commanding the same price or support as it should on the markets. A re-introduction of the AI subsidy would be a way to obtain better results.

Deputy Hegarty is Minister of State with responsibility for food processing, but this is an attempt to counter our proposals. I hope the committee involved will get away from the intervention mentality and broaden our range of product. In order to do this, the grants which were cut with regard to An Foras Talúntais and ACOT, but particularly the former, must be reintroduced. This would enable these bodies to carry out research and development into a new range of products. We are inclined to produce products which we think the consumer requires rather than giving the consumer what she wants. We have neglected that area. We should broaden our total range of products. I hope we will have an opportunity to get into other markets outside the EC, into third countries and world markets generally. The markets are there and we have the products. We are falling down on marketing and presenting our products with a clean image of this country, a country that is not polluted. I hope the committee now being presided over by the Minister, Deputy Hegarty, will follow that up.

Finally, I wish to speak about alternative farm enterprises. We are penalised for over-production in Europe for which we are not responsible. We should look at areas of alternative enterprises. I spoke earlier about farmhouse tourism and deer farming.

The Deputy has been speaking for over five minutes.

(Limerick West): There are other areas such as farmhouse cheeses which Deputy Wilson spoke about. We should look at all those areas as alternative farm enterprises. I ask the Minister to comment on those in his reply.

Can the Minister tell us about the reorganisation of the slaughtering of pigs? How far is it advanced? How does the new prospective grading system relate to the existing grading system that we have for pigs?

A Cheann Comhairle, do I reply to the total debate or just to specific questions?

To the questions being raised now. I will call on the Minister at 10.45 p.m. to conclude.

The position in regard to the quality and the sales of lamb is very complicated. Deputy Wilson said that our lamb is succulent and in great demand on the French market. The French market is almost our total export market. Unfortunately, it is not true to say that our lamb is in tremendous demand.

Not now, but it was.

There are a number of reasons, the primary one being that our lamb, by and large, is too fat for the continental consumer. We encounter this difficulty with regard to lamb and beef all over the Continent. The quality of our lamb and beef is excellent. Continentals just will not accept fatty meat.

They are right.

Most of us tend to like a bit of fat or grizzle with lean meat. It tends to give it a taste. We produce lamb on a 50-50 basis, 50 per cent for home consumption and 50 per cent for export. The farmer producing lamb is always toying with the idea of whether he should produce a heavy lamb for the home market or a lean lamb for the Paris market. Unfortunately, while they should be reared on a 50-50 basis with those markets in mind, I have come across quite a number of farmers who prepared nice, lean lamb for the Paris market only to find that, when it was ready for that market, the market was closed. The French have a bad manner of closing the market when they feel like it, when there is plenty of French lamb coming on stream. It is a difficult position. The two positions should be weighed up.

I am dissatisfied with the quantity of over-fat lamb which is produced here. We have been asking the farming organisations for some time past to partake in a voluntary classification scheme whereby good lean lamb would get a premium rate. They will not agree because it involves a contribution of 5p to 10p per lamb. That is unfortunate because we need that classification system if we are to get the best prices on the French market. I hope, even at this late stage, that we can reach agreement with the farming organisations. I appeal to them to partake in the scheme.

Can we not forbid them to export anything but lean lamb?

No, we cannot. I would like a voluntary contribution both in spirit and financially.

We would be helping them in the end.

Yes, of course we would. I have been telling them it is for their own good. The other problem in the French market is the massive amount of lamb going into that market from Britain. It is unprecedented. The British have their act together as regards sheep in a very big and positive way.

Their lambing rate is excellent. They have a rate of almost 1.7 or 1.8 lambs per ewe. Our rate is about 1.1. They have massive flocks of sheep of brilliant quality.

We will have to conclude.

They are dominating that market at present. We have to improve our standards.

Bringing back the AI subsidy is not one of my top priorities. As I said before in this House, if I had money the first thing I would do is continue the TB eradication scheme at the intensity which we had in 1985 and up to recently. My second priority would be to bring back a lime subsidy. The AI subsidy is a bit down the road. I am just giving those priorities off the top of my head. As regards food processing we hear a lot about——

We are bound by Standing Orders. These contributions are confined to five minutes.

I will speak about it when I am concluding.

I will start my summary now.

No, the Minister should wait until 10.45 p.m. I am not being awkward but I have no discretion in the matter.

I will answer the question about food processing.

No. The Minister should resume his seat. I am not saying that by way of order.

(Limerick West): What do we do now?

If anybody wishes to ask another short question, he need not speak for five minutes. He could ask it in 30 seconds.

I asked about the pig industry and the suggestion that there would be five or six slaughtering centres over the whole country. How will the locations be chosen? How far ahead of us is this, or is it imminent? I asked about the grading system also. We have a system of grade A specials, grade As and grade Bs at present. How do they fit into the new prospective European grading system which, I presume, is what we are talking about. If the Minister has information on how our quality compares with European quality in regard to pork and bacon I would like to hear it.

I was brought up in the belief that everything which came out of Denmark was especially good. That was at the time the Danish economy was mainly agricultural. It is now mainly industrial. From my own experience of living in London, where there was a good deal of Danish bacon on the market, it was not all that good. Their superiority was not evident to me. I do not know about pork, but I am sure the Minister and his Department have information with regard to quality in that area. We have reasonably good quality.

The new EC regulations will depend upon the leanness of the bacon. That is the kernel of it.

Is grade A special the same?

That is correct. I have said this previously, and I will say it again: the quality of Irish bacon is the best in the world.

I am glad to hear it.

I did not say that about our land, our land is too flat. Pig breeders in this country are unequalled in their skill. That is accepted in the trade. We have the best pig producers in the world, brilliant. Where we fall flat on our faces is in the quality of our processing plants. Many of them are a disgrace. I do not believe there is one pigmeat plant in the whole of Ireland which is licensed to export to the United States. That is a terrible indictment of our business acumen.

Having said that, a number of very prominent business interests have shown a major interest in recent times in setting up of top class plants. As late as yesterday and today I had three major concerns in this country coming in to meet me to discuss their plans for the future in this regard. While the bacon and pigmeat industry is in the doldrums at present I can see an immediate improvement or at least an indication of an improvement. A concession which we received in Europe three weeks ago is of considerable importance in this regard. Up to now in the eastern half of Ireland the FEOGA grant was only 25 per cent. One would get as much as an additional 25 per cent from the IDA. We got a commitment from the Agricultural Commissioner that he will now give a FEOGA grant of 50 per cent in all parts of Ireland. I will be asking the IDA to give the maximum 25 per cent grant on top of the 50 per cent. This will make a total of 75 per cent. That is why these people are coming in and showing huge interest. It is a massive grant, everyone will agree.

Is this for slaughtering only?

Yes. The IDA will give generous grants to people who want to process, as long as they participate in the new and better quality slaughtering facilities. The Deputy asked about impending legislation for pork butchers, many of whom are carrying out operations in totally unsanitary conditions. I circulated the headings of a Bill recently to include pork butchers in the same type of system as we have for bacon curers — in other words, everybody killing pigs and processing pigs in this country will have the same rules. The bacon curers have been asking for this for the last three or four years. It is very complicated legislation. Much of it has to be repealed and much of it goes back to the middle of the last century and even further. We have it all in place and I expect that in the next session of the Dáil this legislation will go through and bring everybody who is killing pigs under the same terms of reference.

In accordance with an order of the House made today I am now calling on the Minister to conclude the debate. He has 15 minutes.

I thank the people who contributed to the debate. There were some excellent contributions, some critical, and some constructive. A debate such as this is very helpful. I want, as briefly as possible, to pick off some of the points which were brought up.

First of all, Deputy Prendergast made a point about off-farm incomes and he asserted — I was not here when he spoke but I got a note — that TDs and Senators were getting headage payments because their allowances were not taken into consideration when off-farm income was being assessed. I would like to make it quite clear that I only became aware of this fact some months ago. Apparently, it was brought in in the late seventies. Immediately I became aware of it I gave a direction in my Department that the payments to TDs and Senators were to be stopped. They have been stopped. I saw misrepresentation in the media recently. Perhaps the media are not aware that those payments have been stopped. I could not justify them. I do not think anyone could. I have seen reports of meetings held in certain parts of the country where people have been complaining about them. Those payments are no longer being made.

Much reference was made to disadvantaged areas and the extension Germany got recently. People should bear in mind that that was the first review of its disadvantaged areas. Last year, we completed our fourth review. Germany is not a country of excellent land. Some of it is good, but some of it is also mountain, forest and peatland. Fifty per cent of the Federal Republic of Germany is classified as disadvantaged. Sixty-eight per cent of Ireland is classified as disadvantaged. We are not doing too badly. The recent review, the fourth, increased the amount tremendously. It was the greatest addition of all by far.

Is that adding the severely to the——

Yes, to the less severe, but most of ours is severely. It is grand to say that I should go out and get the whole of Ireland classified as disadvantaged, but there are criteria we have got to fulfil before we can be classified as disadvantaged. We got a lot in the last time which was borderline. I do not mind saying that. Anything which I thought could be pushed in, I pushed it in. Therefore, it is not quite as straightforward as one might think.

Deputy McCartin made a very sensible and down to earth contribution. Basically, what he said is this. Europe does not owe us a living. We have got to go out and earn it. We get the type of attitude in this country that they owe us a living. We have got to work for it. What we have got in Europe is the greatest opportunity that any agricultural country in the world could wish for. That is what we have. We have a market of 320 million people to which we have free access. There are no tariffs, prohibitions or barriers, and we should be able to exploit that market.

As Deputy McCartin so rightly pointed out, we should be able to sell everything we produce in that market. We are living dangerously. I keep saying—and I think the message is getting home — that we are too dependent on third country markets which are extremely volatile. We are much too dependent on intervention, producing commodities which cannot be sold within Europe and which have to be almost given away at the end of the day. We are in an extremely vulnerable position and we have nobody to blame but ourselves. We have been members of the EC over 13 years, and we knew almost ten years previously that we were joining. Therefore, we can hardly complain after over 20 years that we were not prepared. We had that length of time to gear ourselves to that market. The Danes joined with us in 1973. They do not have a problem with intervention with regard to beef, butter or any other commodity. They make things which they can sell. The Danish Minister said to me last year that his farmers were demanding that they be allowed to import milk because they did not have sufficient to manufacture cheese to fill the markets they had all over the world. I must say I was somewhat shamefaced at being told that. Here we still convert 80 per cent of our milk into butter and we can hardly give it away.

Let us face up to the facts of life. We are not making the best of our opportunities. We should be able to sell everything we produce within that market. If any of those countries run into financial difficulty — and it is very much on the cards, let us admit it—why should we go behind the bush? The price of oil has been halved, their incomes have dropped dramatically, and if they cannot afford to buy our produce we shall be in further trouble. We have got to get out and sell.

Deputy Wilson made a point: that we are very good at producing agricultural commodities. There is a degree of truth in that, but it is not the full story. Our land is easily capable of sustaining twice as many cattle as we have at present, and we have had since we entered the EEC approximately the same amount. We have not increased our cattle numbers despite all the incentive schemes. We have about the same number as we had in 1973 or 1974. That is an area in which we could effect improvement.

We spoke about lamb. The quality is not as good as it should be. I spoke about milk. We produce 5½ per cent of total EC production, but we are not converting it into the right products. We are good at producing a certain commodity, but one thing we are definitely not good at — and I meet this everywhere I travel, in Europe or wherever — we are poor at promoting ourselves and we are exceptionally poor at marketing, with exceptions. We have the best quality produce one could ask for and we cannot sell it. We have to dump it into stores. It is sold off to Russia, Cuba and other countries perhaps two or three years later. If we fall down badly anywhere it is in our ability to sell. What we need are more salesmen to go out and do the job. Over the past three and a half years I have seen some of our meat processors progress from subsistence level to making profit. They are now making a lot of money because they are producing the right type of meat and are going out and selling it themselves. One will see them in places like Teheran. Baghdad or Cairo. They are not sending boys out to do the selling for them, they are going out themselves. They deserve tremendous credit. If everybody in agriculture in this country had that type of attitude we would not have a problem. If we need anything it is marketing ability.

There are two other points I might make. Some Deputies made a point that our farm incomes last year were very low. I am not apologising for farm incomes last year. Any fair-minded person — I say this when I travel around the country and meet farmers — realises that we have had 21 months of brutal weather, since September 1984. They appreciate that the Government cannot do the impossible. Farmers have had a terrible time. We all understand and realise that. They realise it. I have never seen people so depressed. I have never seen such despair. It is difficult for everybody, but they realise that there is not a whole lot one can do about it. But despite all that, farm incomes in 1985, while considerably lower than those of 1984 — but remember that 1984 was an exceptional year — in real terms were better than any other year in the eighties with the exception of 1984. That is a startling statistic. People are inclined not to believe it, but the figures are there to prove it: 1985 was better, despite the weather being so awful, and the farm income situation was better than any other year in the eighties with the exception of 1984.

People complain about New Zealand butter coming into the Community. Likewise they complain about the importation of cereal substitutes. Nobody would be happier than I to see all of these imports stopped, but I would like Members of this House to realise that we are part of the biggest trading bloc in the world. When one goes to tell the Germans or the British that imports of butter from New Zealand should be stopped immediately, they will reply: "This Community is financed on the money we make from trading. We sell our cars, washing machines and consumer goods all over the world. Trade is a two-way system. We export; therefore, we have to import". Some countries have nothing but agricultural commodities with which to trade. Therefore, it is not as simplistic as saying that one puts up the doors and stops things from coming in; one has got to trade and we benefit from that trade.

Last year the net benefit from the EC in our agricultural sector was £900 million. What would we do without it? We would be a damn sight worse off if we did not have it. I know that traditional industries went to the wall. We knew that before we joined the Community; but we have reaped huge benefits and we should be reaping even greater benefits. We are in a trading bloc. Those commodities were coming into the Community before we joined. When we signed the Treaty of Accession in 1973 we agreed to allow New Zealand butter to be imported. Before we joined the Community cereal substitutes were being imported, and had been imported since the early sixties. They are being imported under the GATT, which is a legally binding obligation between the two communities involved; one cannot break it unilaterally. For God's sake, let us be realistic. It is pie in the sky to say we will stop this and we will stop that. We must think of the net benefit we are getting. We must realise that there are legal obligations in these trading arrangements. Therefore, this talk of balance sheets and renegotiation is great stuff for the gallery but not terribly realistic.

Deputy Wilson made a point that the British will assume the Presidency of the EC on 1 July and that they will endeavour to dismantle the CAP. Being President of the EC merely means that one chairs the meetings. The Presidency does not take the decisions. It is the same ball game whether the British have the Presidency——

They have said that they will do it. It is going to be their policy and they are on the record as saying so.

No matter who has the Presidency it is the same ball game and there is no way they would be allowed to dismantle the CAP or infringe it, no way. I see it again reported in the media that they will have an influence on it. They will not. The majority will decide the shape of the CAP in the years to come and I know from personal experience that the majority want the CAP to stay as it is.

Vote put and agreed to.
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