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Dáil Éireann debate -
Friday, 27 Jun 1986

Vol. 368 No. 7

Estimates, 1986. - Vote 24: Justice (Revised Estimate).

I move:

That a sum not exceeding £23,721,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of December, 1986, for the salaries and expenses of the Office of the Minister for Justice, and of certain other services administered by that Office, and for payment of a grant-in-aid.

I propose that all the Votes for which I am responsible be taken together, but I shall endeavour to answer any questions on any particular Vote. The total Estimate for all the Votes for which I am responsible is £355,231,000, an increase of £23,596,000 or 7 per cent over the expenditure for these Votes in 1985. The Estimate is made up as follows:

Vote 24—Office of the Minister for Justice, £23,721,000,

Vote 25—Garda Síochána, £255,273,000,

Vote 26—Prisons, £60,877,000,

Vote 27—Courts, £9,175,000,

Vote 28—Land Registry and Registry of Deeds, £6,059,000,

Vote 29—Charitable Donations and Bequests, £126,000.

Pay and allowances and so on, account for 81 per cent of the total Estimates and show an increase of 7 per cent compared with 1985.

In addition to the sum required which I have already outlined, I will also be asking the House for a Supplementary Estimate, which is already before the House, for a sum not exceeding £4,400,000 to defray charges which will come in course of payment in the year ending 31 December 1986 for awards, costs and expenses of the Office of the Minister for Justice in respect of the Stardust compensation tribunal.

The overall Estimates provision for the Garda Síochána in 1986 is £255,273,000. Salaries, allowances and overtime account for almost £198 million of this figure and superannuation provision is close on £35 million. The other major items included are £9.3 million for travelling, subsistence, compensation and miscellaneous expenses, £7.85 million for Garda transport, £4.6 million for postal and telecommunications services and £3.8 million for the purchase, rental and leasing of radio, computer, office and other equipment.

The allocation for salaries and allowances provides for the continuation of Garda recruitment so as to maintain the strength of 11,400 provided for in the national plan. Sixty-eight recruits have been appointed so far this year, a further 100 will be commencing training next Wednesday and further recruitment to fill vacancies is planned for later in the year. Altogether, over 1,400 gardaí have been recruited since the Government took office. This is a substantial achievement at a time when public service numbers generally are being reduced and it is an expression of the Government's continuing commitment to providing the resources necessary to deal with the crime situation.

Garda overtime has been the subject of much exaggerated comment in the press and elsewhere in recent weeks and I think it would be useful to put the matter in perspective on the occasion of this debate. The Estimates provision for Garda overtime in 1986 is £12 million and there is no question of any reduction in this amount. However, because expenditure in the first four months of the year was running at a very high level, the Garda authorities undertook a detailed review of expenditure on overtime so as to ensure that the best possible return is being got from it. This review, together with a general reappraisal of Garda deployment, has led to some changes in the use of resources but the situation is being closely monitored by the Garda authorities so as to ensure that effective policing is maintained in all areas. It is unfortunate that scare headlines and misleading allegations in the press and elsewhere of cutbacks in essential Garda services should give the public the impression that very high expenditure on Garda overtime is a prerequisite to an effective police service. This type of publicity serves only to create a needless sense of insecurity and groundless fears that people and their property are being left without adequate protection.

The fact is that the overtime provision is only one element in the total provision of Garda resources and it would be entirely misleading to regard a high incidence of overtime working, on its own, as any kind of reliable or valid measure of the effectiveness of policing. This is what is important — the provision of an effective policing service that adequately meets requirements on a basis that is cost effective as well. I want to assure the House that I will continue to ensure that the necessary resources are made available to the gardaí, and that all appropriate measures that need to be taken to enable the Garda Síochána to meet the policing needs of the community in an efficient and effective manner will in fact be taken.

A sophisticated new national communications network is being provided at present for the Garda Síochána. The new system is now installed and went "live" in February of this year in all parts of the country other than the Dublin metropolitan area. This new system has brought about a very marked improvement in Garda communications facilities. There is the facility now within each Garda division for instant communication between the divisional headquarters and each district in the division, and between each district and the sub-district stations attached to it. This means that, at practically all times, gardaí and Garda cars on patrol duty within the division are in contact with and contactable from their station. In addition, each Garda division has the facility of instant radio communication with all adjoining Garda divisions. This new system provides for much greater efficiency not alone in the transmission and exchange of information but in the control and utilisation of manpower and patrol cars. It enables an improved service to be provided for the public — for example, in terms of a quicker response by the gardaí to calls for assistance — and of course it also means that any garda in need of help or guidance can seek it from his station instantly by radio.

An important feature of the new network is the provision of radio telephone equipment — what has come to be known as the "Green Man"— at rural Garda stations which are not open round-the-clock. This equipment provides the public with immediate and direct access to the gardaí at times when their local station is closed. This is a very useful feature in areas where station opening times are restricted. It is free of charge and extremely simple to operate and I would encourage people to make good use of it whenever necessary. The second stage of the network installation programme is the radio system for the Dublin metropolitan area.

A £2 million contract was placed in April, 1985 for this system and it is planned that it will come into operation later this year. It includes the most modern type of central control room which will replace the existing central control room in Dublin Castle which is no longer adequate for Garda needs. The radio system will be supplemented by a computerised command and control system which will provide essential management information for the Garda authorities and ensure that the most efficient use is made of all gardaí and patrol cars on operational duties. Similar systems have proved to be of very considerable benefit to police forces in cities abroad and I am confident that it will be of immense value to the gardaí in Dublin. I hope to be in a position to place a contract for this system very shortly.

Over £11 million has been spent to date on the communications network and the amount provided in the current year — £1.62 million — is sufficent to cover leasing repayments on the equipment which it is intended to acquire this year. The continuing allocation of a high level of funds to this project is an example of the Government's commitment to ensuring that the Garda Síochána are provided with the technical resources they require in the vital area of communications.

Computerisation is another area where the benefits of modern technology are being put at the disposal of the gardaí. A new computer costing over £300,000 was provided for the gardaí in December of last year. This has replaced their former model which was no longer adequate to meet the growing needs of the force and the new equipment will facilitate considerable expansion of the computer service available to the Garda Síochána.

Sixty visual display units and ancillary equipment were purchased in 1984 and a contract was placed towards the end of 1985 for a further 45 visual display units and ancillary equipment. This equipment, which has cost over £500,000, has enabled the 18 Garda divisional headquarters and a number of other busy stations both inside and outside the Dublin metropolitan area to be linked directly to the Garda computer. This facility for immediate access to records — for example to check out stolen or suspect vehicles — is proving to be of great practical assistance to the gardaí in dealing with the crime problem.

Work is being carried out at present on improving existing Garda computer systems, such as those dealing with stolen vehicles, firearms and criminals records. A new crime reporting and analysis system has been introduced this year. This is a sophisticated computer system which will provide investigators with information which may help in the solution of particular crimes and will produce analytic reports which will enable particular areas of criminal activity to be explored in depth so that necessary counter measures can be taken. The amount provided for in 1986 — £980,000 — is sufficient to meet the cost of development planned for this year.

Within the past decade the level of serious crime in our society has emerged as a major cause of public concern. Between 1977 and 1981 the level of indictable crime rose by some 42 per cent. The increase continued in 1982 and 1983 but at a lower rate — about 9 per cent and 5 respectively. However, in 1984 — for the first time in six years — national serious crime figures actually, decreased by 2.6 per cent. I am glad to be able to say that this downward trend continued in 1985 with a further reduction of 8.5 per cent and the early indications are that this trend is being maintained so far this year.

There are many causes of increased crime rates and no doubt the reasons for a decrease in crime are complex also. However, there can be no doubt that the efforts of the Garda Síochána, with the full backing of the Government, have played a vital part in bringing about the continued reduction in the amount of indictable crime recorded. I would like to make it absolutely clear that neither I nor the Government think that the battle is won. The level of serious crime must still be viewed as a major problem facing our whole community and there is not the slightest room for complacency in our attitude to the matter. The fight against the criminal must, and will, be vigorously pursued. I can assure the House that the Government are fully committed to giving continued support to the various measures which have already been taken to deal with the situation. I think, nevertheless, that we can take heart from the latest statistics. They are proof that we are moving in the right direction and that measures being taken, with the full support of this Government since assuming office, are beginning to produce the desired results.

I believe we can have confidence that the Garda, given the necessary resources and the support of the community as a whole, can continue to tackle the crime problem successfully. It is right that we should acknowledge and appreciate that special measures taken by the Garda to deal with particular types of crime have been very effective. I have in mind here the measure which were introduced to counter the spate of so-called "joy riding" crimes, to counter the series of reprehensible attacks on elderly people in isolated areas and to deal with drug abuse.

The outbreak of so-called "joy riding" escapades was a feature of Dublin city life early last year. The measures implemented by the Garda to deal with this menace have borne fruit and there is a strong evidence that the Garda are now winning the fight against this particular form of dangerous and wanton lawlessness. A special Garda unit was set up to deal with the problem. A number of vans and cars have been specially deployed and additional custodial accommodation has been provided to ensure that "joy riders" and other criminals will serve the full sentences imposed on them by the courts. Available statistics indicate that the problem of unauthorised takings of cars and rammings of gardaí in patrol cars and on motor cycles has abated considerably in the last 12 months. For the State as a whole there was a decrease of 20 per cent in the number of unauthorised takings of vehicles in 1985 as compared with 1984. As well as that, there has been a further decrease of 15 per cent in the number of unauthorised takings of vehicles in the first four months of 1986, as compared with the same period last year. These are the latest (and still provisional) figures available so there is every reason to hope that the downward trend is set to continue.

The Garda have also been successful in dealing with the heinous attacks on elderly people which were so prevalent in 1984. There was a considerable reduction in the number of recorded attacks on the elderly in 1985, as compared with the previous year. This can be attributed in substantial part to measures devised and taken by the Garda and community groups working together in close co-operation. I should emphasise that this previously unheard-of type of crime presented problems of particular difficulty. I think Deputies will be well aware of the difficulties facing the Garda in affording protection and reassurance for elderly people living in remote and isolated places who were prey to crimes of particular viciousness.

In association with the Community Alert Project, organised by Muintir na Tíre, the Garda authorities introduced certain detailed measures appropriate to each local situation. The number of recorded attacks in 1985 fell by almost 50 per cent compared with the 1984 figure. This, I think, is a fair measure of the success of the strategies adopted to deal with the problem.

We are all aware of the dreadful scourge of drug abuse in our society. The effect which drug abuse has on the crime rate is difficult to measure, but I think there can be little doubt that it makes a bad situation a good deal worse. However, I am glad to be able to say that it is the view of the Garda that the incidence of drug trafficking has levelled off. In this context, it is relevant to make the point that whereas significant increases had been recorded each year in the early 1980s in respect of the number of persons charged with drug offences and the number of drug seizures, the figures for 1985 show a decrease — 7 per cent in the case of the former and a reduction of 4 per cent in the case of the latter. The trend is continuing this year. I believe that these figures are a fair indication of a reduction in the level of offences as the Garda certainly have not relaxed their vigilance in this area. Indeed, more and more gardaí are being trained in the skills necessary to deal with these offences. I am pleased to be in a position to report this improvement to the House. Again, I need hardly say that there is no room for complacency in relation to this most serious problem. Nevertheless, it is heartening to note that the measures which the Government have initiated in recent years are beginning to pay off. I can assure the House that any further steps that are seen by the Government to be necessary to combat the drugs problem will be taken.

The Government's strategy in dealing with the crime situation has not been confined solely to measures to ensure that the Garda Síochána are as effective and efficient as possible in the investigation and detection of criminal activity. The importance of crime prevention has not been overlooked. It is probably true to say that it is only in recent times that the vital role the community can play in the fight against crime has come to be fully recognised.

One crime prevention strategy which is being implemented by the Garda is the neighbourhood watch scheme. Initially, pilot schemes were implemented by the Garda in the Dublin area. These schemes were considered to have a useful role to play not just in relation to crime prevention but also in fostering a closer relationship and understanding between the Garda and the community. The Government allocated funds last year for a publicity campaign to promote neighbour watch with a view to having it implemented as widely as possible throughout the country. The campaign was launched in mid-summer and concentrated on television and radio coverage. I am glad to be in a position to say that this was money well spent. So far there are over 200 schemes in existence involving some 56,723 households throughout the country.

While it is too early yet to come to any definite conclusion as to the effect of neighbour watch schemes on the level and incidence of crime, the preliminary indications are that the schemes are playing a valuable role in this respect. The community relations section of the Garda Síochána have commenced a formal evaluation project on neighbourhood watch to measure the effectiveness of the scheme in reducing crime levels and in fostering improved relations between the Garda and the community. I would like to take this opportunity to commend the Garda Síochána for adopting and promoting this innovative measure to deal with the crime situation and to congratulate the large number of communities who have initiated schemes in their areas.

I come now to the Prisons Vote. The Prisons Estimate reflects the very heavy demands which continue to be made on the prison service, particularly because of the large increases which have taken place in recent years in the number of offenders in custody. The House will be aware that, since coming into office, the Government have been determined to ensure that people convicted of serious offences serve the sentences imposed on them by the Court. The extent of the measures which have been taken to this end can be seen from the size of the increase in the number in costody since 1982. The daily average number in custody in that year was about 1,200. Over the past four years the number has increased by over 50 per cent to about 1,900 at present. To put this increase of about 700 into perspective it should be seen against an increase of only 200 over all of the ten years prior to 1982.

This substantial increase in the number of prisoners being accommodated creates a need, in the short term, for further prison places. We are now taking further measures which will provide the prison system with over 100 extra places over the next few months. These include the acquisition of a new unit in the grounds of the Central Mental Hospital and works to provide additional accommodation at Portlaoise, Mountjoy, Cork and Spike Island. Work is continuing on the new purpose-built place of detention at Wheatfield, and the intended capacity there has been increased to provide accommodation for 320 offenders. This institution, which will be the second largest in the State after Mountjoy, should be completed towards the end of next year for use early the year after.

There are some who have persisted in suggesting that the present accommodation difficulties would not have arisen if the prison capital programme which the Government inherited when they came into office had been proceeded with in its entirety. I would like to make it clear once again that there is simply no basis for that suggestion. The fact of the matter is that under that programme the earliest major additional accommodation which could be made available was the place of detention at Wheatfield. That project has continued without interruption since the Government came into office and, as I have already indicated, the proposed capacity of the institution has been increased. But the earliest moment at which that project could be completed was towards the end of 1987 and there can be no grounds, therefore, for the suggestion that if other parts of the programme had been proceeded with they would have been available to deal with our present needs. It might be argued that it would have been prudent for the Government to proceed with the other parts of the programme to deal with future needs but that is a very different proposition from the misleading one which is normally put forward.

The point about proceeding with the other projects in the capital programme so that they would be available to meet future needs is arguable. The Government, took the view that, while there was a clear need to proceed with the place of detention of Wheatfield, it would not be sensible to proceed with other major projects without first having a thorough review of the entire penal system by a committee of inquiry. In reaching this decision, the Government took into account the enormous costs which would be involved in proceeding with those projects and the likely timescale for their completion — a timescale which meant that they would not be available in the short term to deal with increases in custodial demand which were already taking place.

In the circumstances, the unprecedented increase in the numbers in custody has had to be dealt with, by and large, by maximising the use of existing institutions. This has required considerable resourcefulness on the part of management and staff of the prison service and I am sure that the House will join me in paying tribute to the efforts which the service have been making to cope with these demands.

Increases of the magnitude which have taken place clearly pose severe difficulties for the prison service and I am anxious to take whatever steps are open to me to help alleviate those difficulties. However, the House will accept that the only real alternative to the measures which have been taken to increase custodial accommodation would have been to resort to early releases on a scale which would have had the most serious implications for the operation of the criminal justice system. While there is no doubt that the numbers in custody at present are, in terms of prison administration, undesirably high, the Government, when faced with difficult choices in this area, have to take into account the overriding need to protect society from those who engage in serious crime.

While I do not wish to understate the difficulties facing the prison service it is, nevertheless, the case that the pressure on prison accommodation is by no means unique to our administration and, more importantly, we have been able to cope with it so far without resorting to the type of extreme measures which other administrations have deemed necessary. In particular, every effort is being made to maintain the level of services to offenders despite the increases in the prison population. This approach can be seen from the Prisons Estimate for this year: the provision of £645,000 for manufacturing is almost 90 per cent up on last year's outturn and the provision of £229,000 for educational services, excluding teachers' salaries, is over 30 per cent higher than the 1985 outturn. Having mentioned the difficulties being experienced by other prison administrations, I can inform the House that it is quite common for people from other administrations who visit our prisons to comment favourably on them in the context of the difficulties they face in their own systems.

Again, while not wishing to minimise the extent of our difficulties, it is fair to say that people who attribute all the problems which arise in the prisons solely to pressure on accommodation are adopting an excessively simplistic approach. The reasons, at a given time, for trouble in prisons are, of their nature, very complex and I would caution against a tendency towards superficially plausible, but perhaps ultimately unsustainable, analysis in this area.

Before dealing with some of the detail of this year's Estimate for the prisons I would like to refer fairly briefly to the report of the committee of inquiry into the penal system.

The Report represents the first study of its kind into our penal system and I reiterate the Government's gratitude to all the members who served on the committee and particularly to their chairman, Dr. T.K. Whitaker. Consideration of the report is continuing in my Department and I am in the process of consulting with various groups — mainly groups directly involved in the penal system — about various aspects of the report. I would, of course, welcome also any views which Deputies might wish to communicate to me on the report

While time does not permit me on this occasion to deal with the issues raised in the report in any detail, there is one observation I should make. Since the report was published a number of calls have been made along the lines that it should be implemented immediately and in full. Those calls are, at best, disingenuous and attempt to ascribe to the report a nature which it does not have.

The problems which the committee were asked to examine are very complex. They are problems faced by every democratic society and ones for which there are very few easy or definite answers. The committee advocate certain approaches to these problems and principles which should guide future policy. The committee does not, however, purport to set out a detailed blueprint for the operation of the penal system indicating in precise detail what steps the Government should take in this area. It will be clear to those who study it that the report is of a very different kind. In the circumstances, calls which have been made for the implementation of the report without further clarification and which are made as if they indicated, of themselves, definite and specific actions which I or the Government should take do not amount to much.

Returning to the Prisons Estimate before the House, it will be seen that the largest proportion of expenditure is in respect of the remuneration of prison staff. A sum of £37,143,000 has been provided for salaries, wages and allowances but this will have to be revised later in the year to take into account extra expenditure arising from the continuing high numbers in custody and, more particularly, difficulties which have arisen in relation to certain groups of offenders.

One of the most unwelcome developments in the prisons in the past year has been the need to cater for a number of offenders who have been found to have AIDS antibodies. This has inevitably had implications for staffing levels. The House will be aware that it was decided to segregate offenders in this category principally for two reasons, first, the need to avoid unease among the general prison population and, second, to enable the precautions and restrictions which are medically advised to be applied more easily. A section of Arbour Hill Prison, as well as part of Mountjoy Prison have had to be used exclusively for a number of male offenders with AIDS antibodies. Female offenders with AIDS antibodies are located at present in another part of Mountjoy.

Staffing levels have also had to be increased as a result of additional security measures being taken at Portlaoise Prison since the attempted escape last November by a number of prisoners there. In addition, extra measures involving increases in staffing levels have proved necessary in a number of institutions, notably Mountjoy, to aid better supervision and control of offenders.

The specific problems which I have outlined are among those which have necessitated the deployment of extra staff in order to maintain good order and security. Pending a detailed review of extra staffing requirements — against the background of the Government's policy of restricting numbers in the public service but taking into account the particular demands being made on the prison service — the bulk of the demand for extra staffing has been met, so far, almost exclusively by overtime working. This, particularly when taken in conjunction with the level of overtime dependency inherent in the operation of existing roster arrangements, has led to very heavy demands being made on staff for extra attendance. I am conscious of the undesirability of allowing this situation to continue indefinitely and I have been examining a number of ways in which it might be alleviated.

Both management and staff within the prison service will benefit from the use of Beladd House in Portlaoise as a residential training centre. I had the pleasure of opening the centre some weeks ago and already a number of courses have been held there. A sum of £45,000, exclusive of staff costs, has been provided in this year's Estimates for staff training and development and this will be used to provide training not only for new recruits but also developmental training for prison service personnel at all levels. I feel confident that the investment of these resources will prove to be a wise development and I am sure that the House will join me in wishing this initiative well in its attempt to equip further the prison service to deal more effectively with its responsibilities in a difficult and rapidly changing environment.

Apart from staff costs, the major item of expenditure provided for in the Prisons Estimate for 1986 is the allocation of £12.74 million to the capital programme. The bulk of the money being made available is to enable work to continue at full momentum on the new place of detention at Wheatfield. Site works and enclosure were completed in 1983, construction and servicing of the buildings are now more than half completed and it is expected that the project will be finished on time by the end of 1987.

An extension to Cork Prison, to provide 50 additional cells, commenced last October and is virtually completed. This extension is constructed to the same high standard as the existing modernized cell units and should enable the prison's education unit, which has been temporarily used since last year to provide dormitory accommodation for approximately 30 offenders, to be used again for its original purpose.

Other projects relating to the upgrading of existing custodial accommodation are covered by the capital allocation.

It is perhaps inevitable, given the amounts of money involved, that in speaking on the Prisons Estimate I have concentrated on expenditure incurred on providing and operating places of custody. This should not be taken as any lessening of a desire on the part of the Government to continue to develop effective alternatives to custody.

The major new alternative introduced in recent years has been the community service scheme which was brought into operation at the end of 1984. I am pleased to say that the scheme is being resorted to extensively by the Courts and by the end of last month over 1,000 orders had been made and a further 280 offenders were being assessed for suitability by the probation and welfare service.

Probation is used widely by the Courts and it is my Department's policy to continue to develop its effectiveness as a viable alternative to custody. Towards this end several probation hostels, workships and day centres have been established throughout the country by voluntary committees in association with the probation and welfare service. My Department contribute 100 per cent towards the capital cost of purchasing and refurbishing premises for these projects and up to 90 per cent of their running costs. I am convinced that expenditure in this area is both cost-effective and socially desirable and I think this year's allocation of £1.4 million, compared to an outturn last year of about £1.1 million, is further evidence of the Government's commitment to a wide range of approaches within the penal system.

I now turn to the Courts Vote where I have broad responsibility for providing essential back-up services to enable the Courts to function effectively. My responsibility also extends, of course, to the promotion of legislation relating to the establishment, jurisdiction and functioning of the various Courts and the making of statutory orders under existing legislation. In practical terms, my main concerns are in three areas, namely, courthouse accommodation, the strength of the Judiciary and other matters requiring legislative action, and staffing.

Most Deputies will be aware of difficulties arising in regard to the suitability and adequacy of courthouse accommodation. I am afraid that I still find it necessary to emphasise that responsibility for the provision and maintenance of court accommodation, with certain exceptions in the Dublin area, is vested by law in local authorities. It is apparent that pressures on local finances have affected the level of commitment of some local authorities to maintaining decent court venues.

The picture is not all black, however, and there have been many improvements in recent years in a number of areas. Large scale improvements have been carried out at Waterford, Tralee, Carlow, Ennis, Kilrush, Portlaoise, Roscommon and Wicklow, while Wicklow County Council provided a new purpose-built courthouse at Bray in 1984. Work on the restoration of the fire-damaged courthouse in Monaghan started early in March 1985 and is expected to be completed by August next. Leitrim County Council are considering the possibility of providing a new courthouse at Carrickon-Shannon. Other local authorities are dealing with less extensive works on an ongoing basis.

The current major concern is the restoration of Cavan courthouse. For financial reasons work on this project was delayed by Cavan County Council. However, acting on an order of mandamus made by the High Court, I issued a direction to the Commissioners for Public Works at the end of January to effect the necessary repairs as provided for in section 6 (1) (a) of the Courthouses (Provision and Maintenance) Act, 1935. I understand that Cavan County Council have since indicated that they are now prepared to proceed with a scheme for the reconstruction of the courthouse to include court and county council requirements. In doing so they would be acting as agents for the OPW for the court element of the work.

In Dublin within the past few years nine additional courtrooms have been made available for the various courts.

I do not intend to go into this matter in detail but I would like to point out that the new Children's Court complex will provide generous waiting and consultation facilities, conference rooms and duty rooms for probation and welfare officers. The plans include two courtrooms and judges' rooms, a retiring room for solicitors, and separate waiting areas for gardaí, witnesses and members of the public. Deputies will be aware that the money necessary to build the permanent Children's Court is being provided from the dormant funds of suitors in the High Court under the Funds of Suitors Act, 1984.

In the few minutes I have left, I would like to deal with a few of the other aspects of the Courts Vote before the House. As far as staffing is concerned, court officers have had to cope with staff shortages arising from the restrictions on Civil Service recruitment in common with most other State services. In some cases, lack of staff combined with increasing workloads has given rise to problems. I am glad to say that the assignment from November last of 56 temporary clerical trainees to court offices has helped to alleviate some of the problems. In addition, it was found possible to have special arrangements made for a few offices where the effect of the embargo was becoming critical. Among these were the High Court, particularly the central office and the probate office.

One area where staff shortages and increased workloads had brought about unacceptable delays was in the issuing of fines warrants. Deputies will be aware that the Committee on Crime, Lawlessness and Vandalism raised this issue last year. Various claims were made at the time about the value of the unissued warrants. An informal survey carried out in my Department last September showed that some 115,000 warrants with an estimated face value of £4.25 million were outstanding. Computerisation, the assignment of temporary clerical trainees and special staff effort where this was possible helped to reduce the arrears by the end of the year to about 76,000 warrants with an estimated face value of £3.4 million. Further inroads have been made into the arrears since then. It is important to appreciate, of course, that at the best of times there will be a volume of unissued warrants representing an irreducible level of work in progress.

It is intended to extend computerisation in court offices. This will bring about a greater degree of modernisation of court work and will also help to offset the effects of staff shortages. A computer system is already in operation in the Dublin metropolitan district. It has proved most successful in processing a large volume of summonses and warrants. Statistics for the Garda Commissioner's crime report are also compiled on this computer and as a consequence there have been significant savings for court staff and the Garda Síochána.

The build-up of delays, especially in Cork, in the hearing of High Court jury actions and in Circuit Court criminal and civil business, is a cause of concern. The time taken to dispose of High Court civil actions at present is about 12 months, with the exception of Cork where the delay has been as high as 30 months. Following special steps taken by the President of the High Court, including extra court sittings, the delay there has been reduced to about 26 months. It is hoped that this will be reduced to 24 months by the end of the year. There are no delays in the hearing of non-jury common law actions. Circuit Court business in Cork has increased substantially since 1979 and this has inevitably affected the speed with which cases have been disposed of. The president of the Circuit Court is doing all that is possible to reduce the arrears and has assigned a second judge to Cork on a full time basis.

The Presidents of the High Court and Circuit Court have been helped in arranging additional sittings by the appointment by the Government early this year of an additional judge to each court which was made possible following the legislation I mentioned earlier.

I wish to make some brief comments about three matters which are covered by the Vote of the Office of the Minister for Justice, viz., compensation for victims of the Stardust fire, legal aid and law reform.

Almost £8 million has been paid cut in awards in 400 cases by the Stardust victims compensation tribunal. In addition £0.6 million has been paid in respect of legal and other expenses. Of the £8.6 million million spent so far £0.8 million was spent in 1985 and £7.8 million has been spent this year to date.

As was stated in this House by my immediate predecessor, the reason the Stardust victims compensation tribunal was set up by the Government was to bring to a speedy end the difficulties that obtained in relation to compensation for victims of that tragedy. The tribunal commenced work last October and it has dealt expeditiously with all claims made to it since then. An indication of the satisfaction felt by the victims with the work of the tribunal is that to date only one award has been turned down by an applicant.

The original closing date for the receipt of applications by the tribunal was 31 January 1986. Representations were made in recent months, however, that not all applicants had been able to submit their claims to the tribunal by that date. Accordingly, it was decided in the middle of last month that there should be a new closing date. Notices were put in the newspapers to the effect that a new closing date of 20 June 1986 would apply.

It is not clear yet what the exact total cost of awards made by the tribunal will be. What is clear, however, is that the provision in this year's Estimate of £5 million is inadequate. In fact, as I have mentioned already, £7.8 million has already been paid out this year. On the basis of the information now available it would appear that £9.4 million will be required this year. Accordingly, the House is being asked to approve a Supplementary Estimate of £4.4 million for the Vote of the Office of the Minister for Justice.

The 1986 provision for civil legal aid is £1,552,000. Although this allocation will not, of itself, allow for any expansion of the board's services the board have been able to open three additional Law Centres, a second centre at Cork and centres at Tralee and Athlone in recent months, and intend to open a fourth centre at Tallaght shortly. These centres will be financed until the end of 1987 from the moneys available for civil legal aid under a provision in the Funds of Suitors Act, 1984.

I introduced substantial improvements in the means test provisions in the civil legal aid scheme with effect from 29 May last. Details of the changes were announced in the usual way and copies of the amended scheme have been laid before the Houses of the Oireachtas. The changes are designed to restore the position regarding eligibility for services under the scheme to what was intended when the scheme was introduced in 1980, and to extend further the improvements made since then for applicants who are in receipt of social welfare payments.

The Minister's time is almost up.

I do not mind his having some more time.

I estimate that the Minister has about five minutes more. Is there agreement on that?

There is, certainly.

The Minister has five minutes more, by agreement.

A sum of £2.5 million is provided for criminal legal aid in the 1986 Estimates — this represents an increase of just over £325,000 on what it had cost to run the scheme last year. One reason for this is that there has been increased recourse to the scheme generally by the Courts in disposing of criminal business coming before them, and the Supreme Court ruling that accused persons have a constitutional right to legal aid in certain circumstances must be borne in mind in this context. Other reasons include increased legal fees to counsel and solicitors under the scheme, coupled with an increase to 25 per cent in the rate of value-added tax charged on these fees which, of course, is ultimately recouped to the Exchequer.

On the subject of law reform, the position is that it is not within the Rules of this House for a Deputy to advocate legislation in the course of an Estimates debate. For that reason, I do not think that it would be appropriate for me — even if I were technically within the Rules of the House — to make any statement about particular legislative measures in my area of responsibility. Accordingly, I propose to confine my remarks to saying that my legislative proposals will be brought to the notice of the Members of the House in the usual way. Deputies will be aware that many proposals for law reform have been introduced and debated in the House in recent times relating to areas for which I have responsibility.

To comment briefly on the Estimate in relation to the Land Registry and Registry of Deeds, there is a specific vote for that office. A number of improvements are required there in order to deal with delays which have emerged. I would point out that a programme of computerisation of the registry's folios commenced in December 1982. It was decided to start with the Dublin folios for the reasons that it has the smallest number of folios of the five geographical regions into which the registry is divided for work purposes and there were no duplicate folios available for Dublin as there are in the local offices of the other 25 countries. The computerisation of the Dublin folios was completed during 1985. Plans are being prepared at present for the continuation of the programme into other areas of the country. Word processors are being used in different areas of the registry and the use of personal computers is being considered. The feasibility of computerising the registry's maps is also under active consideration.

The technological advances which have been made in the Land Registry in recent years and the further proposals under consideration in the Land Registry and Registry of Deeds represent considerable progress which has already reflected itself in increased efficiency in some areas and will eventually do so over the whole range of activities of both registries.

I shall conclude on that note, a Cheann Comhairle, thanking the House, and Deputy Woods in particular, for his——

Indulgence.

——understanding of the constraints imposed by the rules which we have adopted in relation to debates on Estimates. However, I shall be very happy to deal in my reply with any questions which emerge and which have not been touched on during the course of this introduction.

I call Deputy Woods. He has 45 minutes.

We have pleasure in supporting the Estimate for this Department. If we had any question about it, it would be about applying greater resources in this area, particularly to the Garda Síochána in the work which they are doing at present in trying to tackle the incidence of crime.

While I have some comments to make on the management and administration of the Votes which we are discussing here, I want to make it clear that we believe all the resources required should be applied to this area to bring down the present levels of crime as quickly as possible.

Before going into that subject in any detail, I welcome the Supplementary Estimate which we have before us today under G.3, Stardust compensation tribunal, which is for £4.4 million, being the additional sum which the Minister considers would be required in the course of this year to meet the requirements of the tribunal. As the Minister knows, we welcomed the setting up of this tribunal and I wish to record the fact that I particularly welcomed the Minister's decision to extend the closing date when it became clear that people did not quite understand the situation in relation to the original closing date. That date was 31 January 1986 and as the Minister has said, representations were made in recent months that not all applicants had been able to submit their claims to the tribunal before that date. I was amongst those who made representations on behalf of individuals who had missed the original date and I commend the Minister and the Government on taking that action in a very considerate and caring way. It indicates the way in which the work of the tribunal has been very caringly handled by the Government on behalf of this House.

I want to return to the general area of crime and vandalism which the Minister dealt with at the outset. Crime and vandalism are still rampant in Dublin, Cork, Limerick and other urban areas. The fear of being robbed, attacked and mugged has reached epidemic proportions in both urban and rural areas. This new fear is a very real fear though it is not always based on reality. I accept the comment which the Minister made in this respect.

People have lost their sense of security. They have lost faith in the ability and commitment of the Government to deal effectively with crime and vandalism. People are tired of listening to statistics, international comparisons and talk about plateau and levelling off. They want a return to law and order, to security in the homes, in businesses and on the streets. They want to see it now in practice.

I find very little patience when I tell people that the position is bad but that there has been some improvement in relation to stolen cars and in relation to the incidence of recorded crime. People in areas which are still being very severely affected by crime do not want to know about that. The statistics show that crimes of violence are increasing. That is probably one of the reasons for the continuing fear in the community. People see increasing incidence of violent crimes, robbery, brutality and thuggery throughout the community. Even though the total number of theft of vehicles and so on may be reducing somewhat, nevertheless they see these obvious manifestations of crime. They are afraid when they are going to shopping centres, particularly in some areas of this city or when they are going out at night. They are even afraid in their homes. They are afraid to open their doors to anyone, especially at night. That terrible fear has grown in the community. If we look at studies in other countries we find that this fear becomes bigger than reality, sometimes much bigger. We must deal with that fear as well as dealing with the reality.

The Minister said there was a reduction of 2.6 per cent in crime in 1985 and that he expects a further reduction of 8.5 per cent. He said that the early indications are that this general figure is reducing. I do not know if the Minister saw a programme last night on "Today Tonight". It was very late in the night by the time I saw it because I was attending a meeting during the evening on crime and vandalism. It was a very large meeting. If one talked about statistics there, one would be in serious trouble. While we were at the meeting stolen cars were being driven up and down outside the community centre. All the small shops in the area have been closed. The shopping centre was closed completely due to arson and vandalism but it is now opening again. The community centre has been burned on several occasions. This has involved tremendous costs. The community are trying to run that centre. The parish hall which was formerly a church was recently burned. This is not happening in that community alone. The community next door are in exactly the same position. Jokes are being passed around the north side at present. I have reported these matters to the Garda. I know they are watching some of the people who have been coming into the communities. One can understand people becoming very annoyed and upset on hearing about reductions in the overall figures for the country as a whole.

On the programme last night a retired garda officer spoke about the recorded figures for crime. He stated that 20,000 crimes went unrecorded in the year. He said that one must be careful when looking at the overall figures. There is a quetion mark about what is being recorded. Only the ones that go down on the relevant form are recorded. I did not have an opportunity to study the programme in detail because I was trying to do other things while looking at it on video during the small hours of the morning. I am nearly afraid to say that I have a video because making the fact known might lead to my not having it very soon. That is a reality and is not a joke. Many videos in my area have been stolen. There is a problem in relation to the recording of crime and to the figures and statistics in general. I warn the Minister against becoming too tied up with statistical figures. It was also pointed out on the programme that for a reasonably long period last year these forms were not available and that would have affected the amount of recorded crime.

We hear complaints from time to time about the extent of recorded crime and how realistic it is. We hear complaints by experts who say that the basis for recorded crime is not the most accurate or the best basis. The Minister could look at that some other day. I have urged him before not to be complacent. He said that while he thinks things are going in the right direction he is also being careful not to be complacent. He is very wise in that. There are serious problems in relation to the availability of manpower and to overtime. I suggested before that the Minister should look at some of these areas and see what is happening. The gardaí are not available in sufficient numbers, but those who are available are doing their best. Any of them will tell us that they do not have the manpower, the flexibility and the overtime arrangements to deal with crime. They are very familiar with what is happening. They become annoyed when they hear people talking about statistics because they know that they could do so much more to clean up the crime problem if they had the resources to do so.

I welcome any levelling off in crime but my argument is that the current level of crime is far too high. We must reduce it very substantially and urgently before we can make any real progress in this area. It requires dramatic action which will take a major commitment on the part of resources and manpower. People want to see a return to law and order. They want to see a return to security and more gardaí on the streets with modern equipment and technical back-up. The visible presence of gardaí in the community will instill a new sense of security.

As I said at the outset, there are two aspects. First, the severe incidence of crime, vandalism and frightening violence, and second, widespread fear. We have got to deal with both of these. In addition, effective measures to tackle crime will help restore the faith of the community in the existence and administration of law and order. People are very unsure and uncertain. All of this cannot be laid at the doors of the Minister or of the Garda Síochána, in particular. There are the questions of sentencing policy and the treatment of offenders. There are recent cases to which I can point to. After a great chase by the Garda Síochána and efforts by local citizens they apprehend a couple of people who are brought before the courts. These people come back out laughing. The process will catch up with those people, probably fairly soon. Try to explain that to people who see dangerous situations on the streets and children within a hair's breadth of being knocked down. I have given the Minister letters about stolen cars careering around in board daylight. The Garda Síochána are fully aware of this situation. People are very much afraid because there will be a fatal accident. There have been in the past with adults. There is a real fear for small children. Small children play around greens and roads. No one would necessarily want to have children knocked down, even the drivers themselves. Tragically, that is what will happen. They have got to be stopped in their tracks. We have not seen the implementation and the use of spiked belts. We were told that they would be used in particular cases and appropriate instruction would be issued. People felt this would be a good thing.

In Canada there has been a good deal of success with spiked belts rather than the initial chain idea. There can be dangers in using these. If we contrast this with the danger of small children playing on the streets and coming out of schools, action has got to be taken in those circumstances. I would ask the Minister in his reply to let us know how he is getting on with the studies he is doing in that area or if he has decided to leave them aside. The problem is still there. As I say, the presence of the Garda Síochána would help a great deal. This will not be achieved without a radical restructuring and modernisation of the Garda Síochána. This must include the granting of authority and responsibility for the financial control and disposal of the Garda budget to the management of the Garda Síochána. This is one of the kernel points in relation to these Estimates. We are talking about substantial Estimates. The Minister gives us global figures for his Department and the Garda Síochána. The figure for the Garda Síochána is £255 million. There is some breakdown for salaries, travelling and incidental expenses. The system is far too centralised in relation to the management and disposal of the financial resources. This centralisation has not only undermined the effectiveness of the Garda Síochána but it has resulted in a cold war between the Minister and the Garda associations, a decline in Garda morale and the disruption of entire communities by vandals and thugs. That is at the heart of this question. There is no point in us discussing global figures if the authority and responsibility in relation to expenditure is not given to the Garda Síochána. It is time they were given that responsibility and controls were put on them to account for themselves in an exact and detailed way under proper management systems.

The position is hopeless for a Garda superintendent trying to deal with crime in his local area. He knows what his problems are. He knows what is needed to deal with them. If he does not, he should not be the one on the job. The Minister has to realise that as far as the Garda Síochána are concerned we are not managing individuals any more, we are managing managers. Every other business manages managers, but the Garda Síochána in relation to financial responsibility are not managing managers. They are not managing by objectives. They are not organised to do that. That organisation is necessary. This can be seen very clearly on the ground from the various superintendents trying to tackle the problem. They know from their own police experience how to go about tackling it. They know the information, the intelligence and the surveillance they need. They are the professionals on the ground, not the Minister, not the Department, not the Opposition. They must be developed, promoted and supported to manage. They have to carry the responsibility of that management. There is a need for a redefinition of that role and the part Garda management must play. It is my clear impression that the system has become far too centralised.

Improvements in the management and training of gardaí are long overdue. Several valuable reports on management have already been prepared. I am not going to go back into them. There have been a variety of reports down through the years. There is no point in the Minister saying that a previous Minister did not deal with it, that he left and passed it on to the next Minister. That is no use. That is only playing games in the House from one side to the other. The Government are there almost four years. The Minister has the opportunity and he is the one in control. If he wants to take action, he can take it and he is responsible for it. It is not as if work was not done before his time, it was. As a result of that work done by various Ministers, reports on management are available. These have been ignored by the Minister, together with the reports on Garda training and on the prison system. They are gathering dust in the Department.

There are two reports on Garda training. There was one completed by the Select Committee on Crime, Lawlessness and Vandalism which was submitted a year ago. That was a valuable exercise, when people of all parties came together and studied such matters. Of course they recognise that they are not the ultimate experts. Very quickly we saw there were major deficiences in the whole training of the Garda and various steps that should be taken urgently to rectify those deficiencies. Some time after that committee had begun their work the former Minister established a group to study the subject of Garda training. Since the committee established by the Minister would have a great deal of resources available to them, freedom of activity, travel facilities and so on, we decided we would allow them add their extra expertise.

It is quite clear that nothing has been done about the recommendations of either of those reports. Of course the Report of the Dáil Committee has been published for all to see. It appears that only the Minister, his Department or possibly other Government Ministers have the other report available to them.

As I understand it, it is a fairly comprehensive report which goes into more detail with regard to costings and so on. The Minister said that the Whitaker Report did not constitute a blueprint or give a detailed analysis of costings of its recommendations. As I understand the position, the report of the committee established by the Minister did provide that kind of information, recommending immediate action. Their mandate was to publish a first report which would help the Minister in taking action. The delay in that respect is too great and the Minister should get on with the job. The Garda themselves have been crying out for action for a long time.

It is somewhat ridiculous to be considering these Estimates in relation to the Garda Síochána without knowing who will be responsible for the expenditure of the moneys or on what they will be spent. For example, under subhead A — Salaries Wages and Allowances — the Estimates show an increase of £7.6 million or 4 per cent, which includes a figure of £12 million for overtime in 1986. The Estimate shows the global figure. It does not break down that figure into allocations to the Garda for community policing, Border duties, prison duties, the protection of dignitaries and embassies, escort duty, traffic control, sporting occasions or headquarters operations. The Minister may contend that some of these are security matters in respect of which he does not want to give detailed information. Of course we accept that. But that does not mean that the cloak of security should be used to cover up everything; that cloak has been used for too long. The question of Border security needs to be divorced from the basic problem of community policing, which is what people, particularly in our larger cities and towns, are concerned with, where crime is at its highest levels.

The lack of a specific allocation of moneys for policing communities has been at the heart of the recent crisis in overtime allocation. Local superintendents did not and do not know where they stand. The Minister may contend that there has been some kind of communications breakdown. I noticed that he referred to that matter in the course of his introductory remarks. Presumably he realised that many problems have been raised in this area. Indeed the media have raised many questions on this whole issue of overtime. In this respect the Minister repeated what he said in the House before:

The Estimates provision for Garda overtime in 1986 is £12 million and there is no question of any reduction in this amount. However, because expenditure in the first four months of the year was running at a very high level, the Garda authorities undertook a detailed review of expenditure on overtime so as to ensure that the best possible return is being got from it.

The Minister continued to say:

This type of publicity serves only to create a needless sense of insecurity and groundless fears that people and their property are being left without adequate protection.

The Minister continues to give assurances that he will provide the necessary resources in this regard. Indeed he continued to say:

This is what is important — the provision of an effective policing service that adequately meets requirements on a basis that is cost effective as well. I want to assure the House that I will continue to ensure that the necessary resources are made available to the gardaí, and that all appropriate measures that need to be taken to enable the Garda Síochána to meet the policing needs of the community in an efficent and effective manner will in fact be taken.

The fact of the matter is that the Garda on the ground do not have adequate resources. When communities, the subject of vandalism and crime, turned to their local superintendents asking what are we to do, they are told there is no money for overtime. That is why there are so few gardaí in these areas to follow up problems. The sad reality is that if adequate numbers of gardaí were available they could deal with such problems, effectively. Therefore I must disagree with the Minister because it is evident that the police are not being provided with the necessary resources. It would appear that there is an allocation of £12 million for overtime, for flexibility of Garda manpower, in 1986. It appears the Government then raided the overtime fund to provide for Border commitments. Garda management and effectiveness have been severely compromised especially in crime-ridden urban areas, resulting in frustration and the total failure of the Government to reinforce the Garda. The overtime allocation was not available to the Commissioner and the Garda to deal with crime. A political decision of the Government removed a substantial part of that allocation. Therefore this should have been catered for by way of a supplementary allocation. If the Government are seriously concerned about the problems of crime and vandalism they must deploy more Garda to protect people and their property, to increase detection rates and prevent crime. Garda must be freed from their typewriters. They must receive more civilian support and be allowed to engage in the work of policing for which they have been professionally trained.

I listened to the Minister speak about sophisticated computers. We welcome the introduction of such technology at the upper levels of Garda management. I see gardaí using very old typewriters, typing with two fingers. That is the position on the ground. They are totally behind the times. I presume that the Minister would hope that computerisation would work its way downward. But perhaps he could begin to do something in local Garda stations, particularly in areas severely affected by crime, freeing gardaí from their typewriters so that they can engage in proper police work. The most obvious deficiencies in the overall position are the lack of civilian support and of modern office procedures and equipment.

These deficiencies are so great as to be literally shocking. No semi-State body is as badly equipped or supported as the Garda. Going into the Garda stations around Dublin which are dealing with high volumes of crime is like walking back through the ages in terms of the facilities available by way of staff, back-up services and equipment. I do not see why AnCO and other such bodies should have very sophisticated equipment to carry out their tasks and all the assistance they need — nearly every second person has a secretary — the position in which the gardaí find themselves is deplorable.

This is the time to make the Stokes Kennedy Crowley report on the Garda Síochána available to the Oireachtas, particularly for the consideration of the Select Committee on Crime, Lawlessness and Vandalism. It is obvious that "Today Tonight" producers had some information about it. It seems everybody will get information except this House. Why keep this kind of information secret from the House? Apparently they were excluded from dealing with security matters. The Select Committee on Crime, Lawlessness and Vandalism, having reported a year ago on Garda training, are now considering the objectives, organisation and management structure of the force. The Minister is thwarting the work of the committee by refusing to release either the report itself or a synopsis of it. The "Today Tonight" programme last night had some sort of synopsis, wherever they got it from. These things are not available to this House, the Parliament of Ireland. It is a disgraceful situation and the Minister should remedy it.

No matter how hard the gardaí work, their contribution will be frustrated if the courts and the prison service do not play their part in a modern and efficient way. We do not have time now to go into greater detail on the work of the Garda Síochána. It is such a major area that it merits much more time and discussion to help the Minister in arriving at the best solution. The question of security is above politics. I congratulate the members of the select committee on the way in which they co-operate almost totally in preparing valuable and useful reports in this area. They realise that crime must be dealt with on a united basis.

The Minister mentioned the courts system and it is clear he is giving attention to that area which is in need for urgent overhaul and updating. There must also be codification of laws. The courts system was not designed to cope with today's high volume of crime and litigation. Here again the Government's policy of overcentralisation is resulting in concentration in Dublin city to the detriment of the great and populous suburban areas like, Tallaght, Coolock and Ballyfermot. The chambers of commerce in these areas are protesting and claiming that their little courthouses are being closed down. There are many effects of this policy of centralisation. It means that the local gardaí must go into the city to pursue cases in court and offenders are not visibly dealt with in or near the communities where their crimes were committed. Community association and chambers of commerce want to help and to be involved and they are looking for a different approach. There is a need for the lower courts to be brought closer to the communities they serve.

The reform of the prison service has been thoroughly examined in the Whitaker report. Sadly we have seen little action on this report. Meanwhile low morale and tension are still a problem in the prison service. This is illustrated at present in the pressure under which staff are working in Arbour Hill, St. Patrick's, Mountjoy and Portlaoise. Staff in Arbour Hill are near breaking point from the imposition of compulsory overtime instead of the creation of new, even temporary posts. I note from the Minister's speech that he seems to be aware that there is a problem in this area and that he intends to review it.

A random sample of overtime worked in the 22 weeks up to mid-June shows prison officers being forced to work an extra 17 to 22 weeks overtime on top of their normal duty. Some men worked a double week every week in the 22-week period; others worked a double week 17 times; and some others actually worked 24 weeks overtime in the 22-week period. I remember some time ago that prison officers were being criticised for the amount of money they were earning on overtime. I remember a former Minister putting out a lot of nasty publicity attributing as large amount of overtime to the prison officers. This is compulsory overtime and it cannot continue. The strain is too great. In any event working in the prison service is a considerable strain and the Minister must act now and appoint even temporary staff to relieve these men before another crisis develops in the prisons. I understand that similar problems exist in Mountjoy.

Press reports have given some indication of the type of thing that is happening. Yesterday's edition of The Irish Press contained a report by Maol Muire Tynan which stated:

The doctor of a 41-year-old Portlaoise prison officer who died earlier this month from a heart attack recommended last March that his patient should be assigned only light duties.

It is claimed in the article that this recommendation was ignored by the prison authorities. The individual and the doctors concerned are mentioned and it is stated that the man suffered from angina and diabetes. The doctor wrote as follows:

I recommended that his duties be confined to light duties. He should not climb any stairs; he should not work any overtime or night duties.

The article continues:

This ledger (sic) went to the Department of Justice but the prison officer was still assigned to compulsory duties like other staff — including 20 hours overtime a week.

His family said he was put on a particular wing where he had difficulty climbing the stairs. If that kind of thing can happen in the prison service then there is an urgent need to look at the management. There must be concern about those questions. We should not have a rigid textbook application in regard to compulsory overtime for all officers. The circumstances in each case must be taken into consideration. We all are aware of the High Court action about compulsory overtime in which a pregnant female officer appealed against the decision to force her to do compulsory overtime. Obviously, this is a serious issue in the prison service and may lead to difficulties in maintaining the prisons, particularly during the very warm weather.

We are all aware of the riot and breakout at Arbour Hill in January. That was an unusual occurrence because, as everybody recognised, Arbour Hill has always been quiet. The staff there are overworked and I understand that some of them have been fined sums of £20 and £30 for failure to return to work overtime. The Minister should review the system as a matter of urgency because what is happening at the moment is not good management. I appreciate that there are special considerations in regard to overtime in the prison service but one must follow that up. The Minister should give special attention to that area.

I regret that I will not have time to deal with all the matters referred to by the Minister. I am pleased that the neighbourhood watch scheme is progressing reasonably well. It is a good scheme and we will give it every support. I was disappointed to hear that those promoting the scheme were not getting the equipment they were promised such as overhead projectors. The Minister should ensure that those facilities are made available. He should not spoil the scheme for the ha'p'orth of tar. The publicity material prepared for that scheme is very good. The gardaí responsible for developing the neighbourhood scheme are doing an excellent job.

The victims of crime are being badly treated. The compensation under Subhead G.1 for personal injuries criminally inflicted is being reduced by 33 per cent and the Irish Association for Victim Support are getting £10,000. I appeal to the Minister to find some money from the multi-millions of pounds involved in the running of his Department and give it to the victim support group who are trying to do an important job for him in a voluntary way.

With regard to civil legal aid, will the Minister consider introducing a management system so that the Department will know where the money is being spent. When I asked about the number of cases involved I was told that could not be worked out although we are aware that individuals have been paid £96,000 and £120,000 in one year. When I asked the Minister to tell me the number of cases dealt with by five solicitors I was surprised to learn that that could not be worked out.

We support the work the Minister is doing. Our only complaint is that more resources are needed for the Garda Síochána. They may be found internally or by an extra allocation but the Minister should ensure that the Garda get all the resources they require without delay.

I do not intend to speak at any great length on this Estimate because the important areas have been covered by the Minister. I should like to refer to the areas for which I have a responsibility. In his concluding remarks Deputy Woods referred to the neighbourhood watch scheme. We all should be pleased at the success of that scheme. I hope it will expand in the future as people become aware of how it works. In my view it is the greatest resource that can be used by the Garda and the community, working closely together, in their efforts to combat the heinous crimes being committed against old people living alone. The scheme will help to reduce those crimes because neighbours of those old people will be more watchful.

My responsibility in the Department relates largely to the area of family law reform and equality of treatment for women. I should like to mention that this week the Seanad passed Bills related to the equality of women, the Domicile and Recognition of Foreign Divorces Bill and the Irish Nationality and Citizenship Bill. I am happy to be able to record that those measures, which have been passed by both Houses, will enable us to remove at least two reservations entered in our ratification of the UN Convention on the elimination of all forms of discrimination against women. I should like to state that after lengthy discussion on our White Paper we have produced the Bill dealing with the status of children. It is expected that the Bill will be introduced in the Seanad shortly and will be before the Dáil in the next session. That is an important and worthwhile piece of legislation.

A particularly important development for the Garda Síochána and the prison service has been the extension to them of the scope of the Employment Equality Act, 1977. The European Communities (Employment Equality) Regulations, 1985, made by the Minister for Labour last October, have the net effect of abolishing the general exemption from the scope of the 1977 Act which formerly applied to both the Garda Síochána and the prison service and to limit exemptions to certain categories of posts in both services. The exempted posts are: first, posts where it is necessary in the interests of privacy and decency that the post be filled by a person of a particular sex because the duties of the post involve either carrying out personal searches or direct personal supervision of prisoners of that sex while they are dressing or undressing; secondly, posts where the duties include guarding, escorting or controlling violent persons, or quelling riots or violent disturbances.

Over the last decade there has been a steady increase in the number of banghardaí serving in the force from 34 in 1976 to a current strength of 357 and a further 20 have been called to commence training on 2 July. The range of duties assigned to banghardaí has been extended over the years from being restricted to dealing mainly with women and children to a position where they perform practically the total range of duties in all branches of the force.

I welcome the fact that banghardaí have been successful in a recent competition for promotion to sergeant rank, but I would like to see more banghardaí going forward for promotion as soon as they are eligible. I hope to see increased participation of women in the higher ranks of the force and this can come about only if banghardaí are prepared to compete for promotion and demonstrate that they are willing, as well as able, to undertake the extra responsibilities that promotion entails. I know they have the ability and that the willingness is there. I am sure that the progress of women within the force will be further enhanced by the fact that the Garda Commissioner has assigned reponsibility for implementing, within the force, the policy of equality of opportunity between men and women to a chief superintendent in the headquarters personnel branch.

In relation to the prison service, the extension of the Act will mean the gradual introduction of mixed staffing in the prisons. Progress has already been made. For the first time, this year's recruitment competition for prison officers was open to male and female candidates and successful female candidates will be assigned in the next few months from the competition to fill vacancies in the prison service in accordance with the order of merit. Serving female officers will also become eligible for transfer to male prisons as new staff become available from the recruitment competition and promotion outlets will be open to women staff on an equal basis to men. This is something which has been the case in practice for some time but it now has statutory backing. That represents a considerable breakthrough in an area which has been a traditional area of work for men.

The regulations also mean that male officers may be assigned to female prisons, subject, of course, to exemptions on grounds of decency and privacy. Unfortunately, the small size of our two institutions for female offenders at Mountjoy and Limerick restricts scope for implementing this aspect of employment equality. The reality is that we have a smaller number of female prisoners, about 60 women to 1,800 men. I do not regret that; it is symptomatic of the nonviolence of women.

More docile.

It restricts the area of work for female officers to female prisons. However, I am glad to say that the new and separate unit in the grounds of the Central Mental Hospital in Dundrum which is to be transferred from the Eastern Health Board to cater in the foreseeable future, primarily for female offenders, will be staffed on a mixed basis.

I welcome the extension of employment equality to the prison service and I believe that the service and those it caters for will benefit from it. I am glad to say that the Department are committed to implementing the regulations in an enlightened manner. A policy statement issued following consultations with the Prison Officers' Association affirms that it is departmental policy to promote employment equality and that, in particular, regard will be had to equal treatment as regards training, job experience and promotions. An initial target for female staffing of 10 per cent of total staff has been set and to ensure that the policy is implemented, and to iron out any problems that develop a monitoring committee, comprising of representatives of the Department, both headquarters and prison management, and of the Prison Officers' Association, have been set up. I feel confident that in future years the advent of employment equality in the prison service will be regarded as a landmark in the history of the development of the prison service.

I now wish to say a few words about the pilot family mediation scheme. Early in 1985 I appointed a steering committee to set up a pilot family mediation scheme. In October they presented their report to me, outlining how the scheme should be run. The pilot scheme will be launched on 10 July. It will operate in Dublin, in offices in Middle Abbey Street, and will be administered by a mediation committee, representing the legal profession, family counselling groups and social workers.

In essence family mediation is a process whereby a third party — a professional mediator — assists a husband and wife to work out their own solutions when their marriage has irretrievably broken down. The scheme will operate on an out-of-court basis and will be available free of charge to married couples resident in the State, usually before any steps are taken by them to avail of legal proceedings. It is envisaged that clients most likely to benefit from mediation would be referred to the service by, for example, solicitors, doctors, clergy, the Legal Aid Board's law centres, marriage counsellors, family assessment or counselling services.

The main advantages of the scheme are: it can help both parties to identify and assess their options and to discuss the consequences before major decisions are finalised; it can bring the parties face-to-face and by tackling the issues directly it can dispel suspicions and misunderstandings; it can encourage people, especially parents, to take control of their own affairs and to work out their own solutions; it provides a neutral territory free from distressing associations and interruptions where the couple can talk in privacy; it can alert parents to what their children are experiencing because of the breakdown of the marriage and help them to maintain their parental role despite the ending of the marriage; and it can reduce the expense, delay and costs involved in marriage breakdown.

In order to assess the effectiveness of the scheme, it will be independently assessed and monitored during its three-year term and a report prepared at the end of the experimental period for a Government decision on the wider use of such a service.

Apart from the obvious benefits in human and emotional terms — the most important aspect of the scheme — it is confidently expected that the process of mediation will reduce the expense and delay involved in court action concerning marital breakdown. Apart from the important social aspects of such a service for the parties to a breakdown and for their children, there could be a reduction in the number of court cases and thereby a saving to the State of administrative expenses and legal aid costs.

I am very pleased that this important process which I initiated last year has been brought forward very efficiently and professionally by the voluntary committee who came together. With great speed they have brought it to fruition and it will be in operation within the next two weeks.

I welcome the opportunity to speak in this debate on the Estimate for the Department of Justice. I preface my remarks by saying that one of the most disappointing aspects of economic and social development in Ireland in recent years has been that an increasing amount of scarce financial resources has had to be directed towards the preservation of law and order. I do not think anyone in this House would disagree with that comment.

In fairness, it must be said that the problem is not confined to Ireland alone as Governments generally find themselves having to make increased provision for law enforcement. However, I have often made the point here that the level of crime in society is a fairly reliable barometer of the success or failure of a Government in the area of social and economic reform. This view holds in the Irish context as we have watched the crime graph climb in line with the frightening increase in unemployment.

All of us welcome the assurances given by the Minister today when he quoted statistics showing that the level of crime is reducing. However, statistics can be misleading and confusing and a person would have a very difficult job at present convincing anyone on the streets of Dublin that crime in urban and rural areas is decreasing. It is also accepted that the crime graph rises in line with the level of confidence instilled by Government in terms of leadership and the hope and optimism generated in a community.

In relation to the breakdown of law and order, one of the problems is that there is a lack of confidence on the part of many in our community in that they consider we have not the capacity to deal with the issue of law and order and with the many social problems in society. What we are experiencing is a backlash of our failure in that regard. The House will agree that under these two headings, and there are many more, this Government have failed to tackle the root cause of crime and discontent. Today we are trying to meet the financial cost of this failure through inadequate financial provisions which give society the worst of both worlds. We have failed to bring about an economic climate where people will get employment and where proper social facilities will be provided. At the same time under this Estimate we are refusing to provide adequate resources to protect society from the worst effects of the Government's failure in regard to social and economic reform.

The Government area admitting that they do not have the capacity to tackle the root cause of these problems and they will not provide adequate protection against their failure in this regard. This is not acceptable and the people will not tolerate it. Deputy Woods referred to a meeting he attended last night where a large number of the citizens of Dublin expressed their abhorrence at our failure to deal with the problems of the breakdown in law and order. I do not need to remind the Minister of the fear and insecurity which abound in our community in terms of the threat to life and property. This is not a sensational statement because the evidence is unfolding daily in our newspapers, on television and on radio.

There was a time when a deterioration in law and order was confined to the urban areas but tragically in recent years this has spread to the rural areas as well. The criminal is retreating from the urban areas to the rural community and many people in rural Ireland, particularly those living alone and in isolated areas, are living in fear. I want to compliment Muintir na Tíre for their efforts in organising the community watch which is an invaluable support system for the Garda Síochána. This scheme has more than proved its worth. It is important when speaking about law and order in this House that we recognise the voluntary commitment made by those involved in the community watch system.

The fact that we are an island nation should make for the easier curtailment of crime. We should have more control over our own destiny. I am not saying we are totally protected from what happens in Europe, but our isolation should make the problem easier to resolve. I am very disappointed that crime in urban Ireland has increased at a faster rate than in any urban community in Europe within the past four or five years. We are left with no other option than to channel an increasing amount of scarce financial resources into providing protection for our citizens.

There has been a lot of talk in this House about how we can get the best return for the money collected by way of taxation. I am a member of the Committee on Public Expenditure and we examined the expenditure patterns of various Government agencies, with, in my opinion, reasonably good results. However, this is tedious work and it will take time to get results. I hope we have at least created an awareness within the Government of the need to monitor the social cost of policies as distinct from the immediate financial cost. This is very relevant in the context of today's debate. The point I am making is that we cannot divorce the Estimate for the Department of Justice, or monitor the cost and how it could be reduced, without viewing it in the context of the efforts of other Government policies and decisions as being contributing factors. I have no doubt that if the situation were examined we would get a far better and more productive return for the limited money available for national development.

Escalating crime is a product of the society we have created. The House will agree that unemployment is a major factor in the increase in crime as are poor housing and bad social conditions. I do not see any real hope of improvement unless we are seen to tackle this area and those who are socially deprived have their confidence restored in this House and in the Government. The answer to the problem is not the employment of additional gardaí or the building of more prisons. We are in the position of having to react to a situation which is frightening but which could have been minimised if the Government had taken action earlier in other areas. I want to reiterate that if Governments had laid more emphasis on tackling social problems which are the root cause of the high level of crime, we would not be providing so much money for what could be decribed as unproductive expenditure. This is unproductive expenditure to the extent that we do not get a viable return on it, but nevertheless it is necessary to provide this money since it is our duty to protect our citizens.

In the past I have spoken of the need for confidence in the Government. There is an unnecessary air of despondency around at present which would not exist if we had good and proper leadership. It is my honest belief that, apart from creating the correct economic environment, there is a duty on Government, and on the leader of Government, to instil a degree of confidence in society. I am not making an unfair political comment when I say that level of confidence has not existed in this House or in the community for a considerable time. This is one of the reasons young people become frustrated. They look to the legislators to create the economic environment which will provide employment, but they have been looking in vain towards this House, this Parliament and the Government.

If one reads Government statements in the papers one would have to agree — and the Minister of State opposite will have to agree — that there is no leadership and that no effort is being made to restore confidence in the Government. Despite all the problems facing us, I believe we can provide a good future for all, particularly our young school leavers. They are the people who are reacting to the Government's failure and they are the people who make it necessary for us to provide the level of security we are talking about today.

Deputy Woods said the efforts to reorganise the Garda Síochána seemed to have been put on the long finger. I join with him and, I am sure, with other members in complimenting the Garda Síochána on the extremely difficult task they perform on behalf of the community. On the other hand, they look to this House to provide them with the level of support they need to deal with difficulties which are increasing in intensity. A source of disappointment to me and probably to other Members is that much of the legislation required and promised to give the Garda support in their task has not passed all stages in this House at present. Therefore, it is imperative that instead of giving the lip service which we tend to give to the Garda Síochána we do something positive about their position and give them the support they are entitled to expect from this House.

The Minister in his comments referred to the fact that Garda overtime was not a problem, but I say to him that as far as my constituency of Laois-Offaly is concerned Garda overtime is a problem. The presence in our constituency of the top security prison has created a problem in the additional drain it creates on Garda manpower. That is totally unacceptable as far as we in Laois and part of County Offaly are concerned. Small towns and rural villages are being denuded of their Garda support because of the strain and demand which Portlaoise prison makes in relation to them. Garda overtime certainly is a problem in the Laois-Offaly area and I ask the Minister to consider the position in County Laois in particular where communities are totally dissatisfied at the fact that they are being denied the Garda support they require.

I am pleased to hear the Minister say that his intention is to proceed as rapidly as possible with Garda recruitment. I am disappointed that he was unable to give any definite assurance that the system of Garda training in the Templemore Training Depot is to be extended and improved. Anybody would agree at present that with the increasing level of crime and the increasing demand on our Garda Síochána there is an urgent need to update continuously the standard of training for Garda recruits, and to extend the period of training within the depot. Apart from all that, there should be an in-course training for gardaí 12 months after they leave the depot for the purpose of keeping them up to date with the most modern developments in police forces throughout the world.

The people are saying to this House at present that they want a return to law and order. I appreciate that the Minister and his Minister of State are as concerned about law and order as anybody on this side of the House is, but they have not created the structures under which the Garda can operate efficiently and they have not provided the level of technical support which the Garda need to enable them to deal with crime in society. A further disappointment to me in relation to the Bill before us is the fact that the Government are proposing to do away with malicious injuries compensation. Again, this decision is abandoning the people at this time and abandoning in particular communities where schools, community halls and other public institutions are going to be placed at undue risk as a result——

I do not think that arises on this Estimate.

It is in the context of the Estimate of the Department of Justice. Anyway, Sir, I will accept your ruling on that. My final comment is in relation to the situation in our prisons and the strain under which prison officers operate. My colleague, Deputy Michael Woods, referred to the recent tragic incident in Portlaoise where a young police officer because of the increasing strain of overtime suffered a serious coronary attack and went to his eternal reward. That incident has created a great deal of unease within the prison staff in Portlaoise where compulsory overtime applies. It should be within the Minister's jurisdiction to bring about the recruitment of additional prison officers for the purpose not only of providing the support staff needed in prisons but also to relieve the demand on overtime on existing prison officers. The Minister is losing out on an ideal opportunity to create additional employment within the confines of his Department. Therefore, I urge him to think seriously about the situation in our prisons and in particular to do something positive about the Whitaker report which has been on his desk for a number of months. This is a very worthwhile, far reaching report which would help to re-organise prison staffing which would result in an improved prison service. Therefore, I ask the Minister and the Government to take the Whitaker report seriously into consideration and to act as soon as possible on some of the major aspects of that report.

The area of the Justice Estimate that I want to refer to is Border surveillance and the spending of public money on that but before I turn to that I want to express my pleasure at the decrease in crime figures in the past year or two. As a man of rather hardline views in the area of law and order I did not believe that I would ever see in my time here in the Dáil the escalating crime rate reversed to a downward tendency. However, there is a decrease in it. Everybody will appreciate that, and the Garda can take a great deal of the credit for it. The real reason for this decrease is that there has been an increase of over 700 prisoners in our jails. That indicates that the judges have got the message that the sentences they had been meting out prior to 1982 were totally inappropriate and did not fit the crime. In particular the judges have begun to deal with crimes of violence more severely, and the 1,900 people in jail at present contrast starkly with the figure of 1,200 in prison in 1982. The real reason for the drop in crime is that over 700 offenders, probably hardline and continual, have been put behind bars. In my region the fact that many consistent offenders have been put away has brought a corresponding decrease in the number of crimes committed there.

I should like also to express my appreciation of the efforts of the Garda Síochána in combating crime. Very often they are the butt of criticism, sometimes unjustified, but we must remember that we have 11,400 gardaí and the highest percentage of police in Europe per head of population. Members of the force have pointed out to me that they also perform more duties than do other police forces. That area should be examined and explored by the Department. Policemen should not be signing passports, issuing and checking on dog licences, or doing other jobs of that nature which civilian employees could more gainfully do, thereby releasing policemen and women for the job for which they were originally intended, fighting crime. It is a waste of manpower to have Garda personnel bogged down in offices, as Deputy Woods said, typing with two fingers. All gardaí should be released for duty on the streets in our towns and cities.

It is a pity that the garda get so uptight on the question of overtime. It should be part of their job to do night work without overtime as was the case for many years since the formation of the State. When the Garda became unionised, the crime rate escalated.

How many gardaí are on neighbourhood watch committees in their off duty time? There is no doubt that the neighbourhood watch scheme has been successful and I should like to see gardaí getting involved in the scheme in their own neighbourhood and giving the benefit of their expertise in the field of crime which would be a significant advantage to the community.

How much is paid by the banks to the Garda for transferring money on their behalf? I understand that the services of the Garda are free but, in view of the millions which the banks are making year after year, they should pay for this service. The Garda are not there for the benefit of the banks or shareholders but to ensure that crime does not pay. The banks do not provide services free of charge.

A second legal centre has been opened in Cork, Tralee and Athlone. The Border region get nothing and I wonder if some Ministers even know where we are located. All the emphasis is on Dublin and Cork, because of the size of the political lobby in these areas, whereas the Border region continues to suffer in every section of public life. Could the fact that Government Ministers live in Tralee and Athlone have something to do with the location of the centres? Dundalk, a town of 30,000 people, badly needs a legal centre but the fact that we do not have a voice in the Cabinet militates against us and, once again, we have been passed over.

I wish to refer to the spending of money in the Border region by the Garda Síochána. As a member of the Committee of Public Accounts it makes me weep to see the waste of money in that area. The Government must be indicated for criminal waste of money in that area. I must be mindful of the fact that those who live in Dundalk and north County Louth are in an extremely vulnerable position because in 1972 there was a tragic occurrence when a bomb exploded in the centre of Dundalk killing two people and injuring many more. It left us very fearful of a repeat performance. In the wake of the hysteria engendered by the Anglo-Irish agreement among Unionists and amid repeated calls by the Iunatic fringe of the Unionist party, particularly Mr. Seawright and Mr. Graham of Kilkeel, for bombing reprisals to be carried out in the Border region — naming Dundalk, Clones and Monaghan — there has been a great deal of concern. I am aware of the need for continued surveillance and very appreciative, as are the people of Dundalk, of the efforts of the Garda Síochána and the Defence Forces over the last 20 years. They have given a great service in regard to surveillance and the fact that only one bomb exploded underlines the value of their efforts.

I want surveillance to continue but I protest at the charade enacted in the Border area by the creation of road blocks. These are set up all along the Border area, indeed even in your own area of Cavan, a Cheann Comhairle. In Dundalk it is very irritating to see a permanent road block set up on the Newry road totally inhibiting trade especially at Christmas when Dundalk was virtually closed to the hinterland around it. This road block was there until a fortnight ago and it is most ineffective. Over the last 18 years there has not been a single seizure of arms or apprehension of any wanted criminal. However, since last November, there has been a constant presence of policemen playing games there as a sop to the British Government in trying to create an impression of eternal vigilance——

In which jurisdiction is it?

It is in our jurisdiction and I am deploring the fact that 60 young policemen have been taken from other towns and villages and are now encamped in Dundalk.

I was misled by the Deputy.

They are paid huge sums for overtime. Recently an American journalist and I went out of Dundalk, skirted the Border and the road block and went into south Armagh without any detection, good, bad or indifferent. Not alone were we not detected by Irish personnel but we were not detected by British personnel. We stayed some time in Armagh and then retraced our steps, again without being stopped. Ordinary people in Dundalk cannot understand why this road block is necessary and why men should be hanging around ineffectively deployed. We need mobile police checks covering every Border road doing lighting spot checks, which would be a big improvement on what we have at present. The presence of this road block outside two business premises has hampered business. One is a licensed premises run by a very reputable firm and the business has been decimated by the continued presence of a road block just outside. Some compensation should be paid to ensure that this business will not go bankrupt.

Since last November over £2 million has been wasted in an area that is economically deprived because of the situation in Ulster. Business in Dundalk has virtually ground to a halt and no help has come from any Government in the past few years. The money spent could have been used to bolster some of the unfortunate businesses that are hanging on or have folded.

I hoped the Minister for Justice would be here to hear what I have to say in regard to his surreptitious visit to Dundalk recently, ostensibly to visit the Border region and look around. He did not tell me he was coming to Dundalk. I am only a humble backbencher but I am a parliamentary colleague of his who came in here in the same way as he did, representing the people of my county in the same fashion as he does the people of Kildare. I am an admirer of the Minister's ability but it was a grave lapse of protocol not to have informed me that he was visiting the region. I was aware of his presence because I got a telephone call from a friend in the Garda barracks. I said nothing because I hoped he might give some explanation as to why he disregarded me to such an extent.

I did not expect to be part of the high powered discussions, but ordinary protocol demands that he should have told me he was coming to the region and that he should meet me for a half an hour or an hour to discuss the position and perhaps listen to a different perspective from what the Garda would have told him. I can tell the Minister that at the various road-blocks the men were told to smarten up, to stand alertly rather than lounging about and put on a businesslike approach because the Minister for Justice was in town. The Minister for Justice came to town and failed to recognise his own back bench colleague who could have given him a different perspective on the Border situation, having lived in Dundalk for 50 years. I could have brought him around, as I brought the American journalist, and avoided the whole charade because that it what it is, it is a joke. This neglect of party colleagues, particularly backbenchers, causes Deputies like myself, and perhaps Deputy Skelly who is more famous than I am, to point the finger sometimes at our own Government. I can contribute as much information on the local scene as any desk bound Garda officer, no matter how senior, who might have entered the force in 1950 but does not live in the Border region. Are the local gardaí consulted? If decisions are made, where are they made and by whom?

I deplore the criminal waste of money in the Border region. We want surveillance and we are appreciative of the job done by the Garda and the Army. But as a member of the Committee of Public Accounts I have to point the finger at the criminal waste of public money in that region.

I conclude by asking why were the Irish Army withdrawn from Border surveillance? Was it because money was made available in September of last year for the Border region and the Garda are paid overtime whereas the Army are not. Until last November the Army, who have a substantial barracks in Dundalk, were used in that area. I want them reintroduced. I realise that the Garda——

The Deputy is over his time.

I am just concluding. I realise that the Garda are the civic power but surely we could have a road block of some sort with ten Army personnel and one garda representing the civic power. That would release 60 young people——

The Deputy is trespassing on the time of other Deputies and it is not fair.

I want to conclude my sentence. That would release 60 people to fight crime in the towns and cities of this country.

I am glad to have the opportunity to speak here today. Like Deputy McGahon I came up especially to make my contribution because of the very serious situation that exists, particularly in Cork. Deputy McGahon mentioned that we have the highest number of gardaí ever, 11,400. I fully agree with him. But I would like to know where half of them are because they are certainly not on the streets of Cork and it is the same throughout the country.

It is a sad reflection on our system of justice that many people are of the view that crime does pay. It is an indictment of this Government's failure to tackle the problem of rising levels of crime. This increase in the levels of crime and vandalism cannot be allowed to continue. But that is what will happen unless strong action is taken by the Government. The resources must be made available to the Garda, including modern equipment, transport and communications systems, if they are to do their job effectively. This was discussed in a motion in the House recently. I believe the Garda do not have the resources and the back-up facilities they need.

There is almost a complete absence of gardaí in Cork. Parts of Cork with 20,000 to 30,000 people are patrolled by two gardaí at night. What is being done about this? It is easy to come in here and carry out a public relations exercise but I am genuinely concerned that the resources of the force are not being utilised in the best way possible on behalf of the people. That is the Minister's responsibility and I want to know where we go from here. Recently two new Garda stations were opened in Cork and these are welcome. But they are under-manned and under-utilised. We have to come to grips with this situation. I am criticising top management in the Garda regarding the utilisation of the force. The deployment of the force in various areas of Cork gives me cause for concern also. The station in Gurranabraher is responsible for patrolling Ballincollig, seven or eight miles away, because stations are closing at night. Mallow Road station and Water-course Road station have to cover additional new developing areas with banks and commercial developments with fewer personnel. This is a cause of serious concern in Cork and the people there are losing their patience. They are not getting the protection to which they are entitled. It is the reponsibility of the Minister and he is failing in his duty.

We have been told that there are no cutbacks in Garda overtime, but there are major cuts in policing levels in Cork city. Would the Minister outline exactly where the money is going? We have been told that the total figure is £12 million and that £9 million is being spent on Border security, leaving the rest of the country neglected. I am very conscious of the importance of the Border to the citizens, North and South, but surely we must not ignore the other areas.

Great strains are being put on Cork gardaí and they cannot adequately protect the elderly, the defenceless, in our society. The initiative must be taken away from the thieves, the vandals, the so-called joyriders, the drug pushers and organised criminals. Unless we are prepared to provide adequate Garda manning levels at all times, we are not serious about dealing with the menace of crime. Prevention is more important now than ever before.

We have heard much talk about the neighbourhood watch system and how successful it is proving. I have yet to see this. We have endeavoured to implement this system in Cork, but because of the lack of back-up by the Garda I would be genuinely concerned about starting such a system in a number of areas in Cork. The gardaí cannot do the job on their own, they must have co-operation from the community. I ask the Minister to give immediate attention to the needs of the Garda stations in Cork, whose officers are endeavouring to cope under very difficult circumstances.

More gardaí are needed on the beat. Their physical presence on the streets is the best single deterrent against crime. There is almost an absolute absence of foot patrols in vital areas in Cork where the crime rate is high and there are many social problems, with high unemployment and large families in which no member is working. We have no proper policing and no proper opportunity of integrating the efforts of the people with those of the Garda Síochána. A greater involvement of members of the Garda force in the community is very necessary, but because of non-availability of resources this is not occurring. Gardaí should be encouraged to develop a liaison with schools, voluntary organisations and community associations. I do not want to sound totally pessimistic, but we must ensure that every assistance possible is given in this direction.

I have in the past criticised some of the duties put on members of the Garda force. In this day and age, why should they be putting parking tickets on cars or carrying out duties for the Department of Social Welfare, or amassing statistics on behalf of the Department of Agriculture, or being involved with census forms? With the demands on the force because of the high crime rate, is it not time that serious consideration was given to removing many of those duties which could be done by civilians, particularly having regard to the present high unemployment rate? I again call on the Minister to give serious consideration to this in the interests of the community and of the Garda Síochána. Let the gardaí get on with the job for which they are highly paid and highly trained, of protecting the people. Prevention of crime is much cheaper in the long run than apprehension and going through the whole court procedure. Greater attention must be given to prevention of crime because of the present strains on manpower and resources. We will not have an immediate solution. I realise that. But there has been a greater concentration on the checking of the spread of crime than on the treatment of the causes. No one can dispute the fact that unemployment is a major contributory factor to crime. Since the Government came into office 60,000 people have been added to the numbers unemployed. Every working day of every working week since the Coalition took up office 70 people have become unemployed. No attention has been paid to the terrible social consequences of this.

It was disturbing to learn from last night's TV programme, "Today Tonight", of the low detection rate for offences. The programme outlined clearly how unsatisfactory the detection rate is. I am sure the Minister must be concerned. The cause must be established. Very clearly, gardaí are doing duties other than those for which they were trained and for which they have been appointed. If we do not tackle that problem immediately there is no hope for us in the future. It is the responsibility of the Minister to find out why detection rates as low as 10 per cent and 17 per cent can be given. Many people have now given up reporting offences to the gardaí, particularly housebreaking and robbery, because they do not consider that the cases will be followed through. People that I have met have had their homes broken into from four to six times and some have left different parts of the city because of this in the hope of getting some extra protection in other areas. The low detection rate is very serious.

The Minister referred to the courts in Cork, saying that the delays there were longer than anywhere else and I agree. We have been agitating for some considerable time for the causes to be tackled. There are major difficulties, particularly for witnesses in criminal cases who have to wait for years to be called and there is a continuing trauma for the families in these cases. There is no doubt that the courts are the Cinderella of the criminal justice system. Expenditure in this area has grown more slowly than in other areas and without an efficient courts system the whole criminal justice procedure will grind to a halt. There is urgent need for a radical overhaul and streamlining of the courts. I hope the Minister will give this matter urgent priority. The Minister mentioned additional sittings in Cork and that the delay in getting a hearing there had been reduced from 30 months to 26 months and by the end of the year would, it was hoped, be down to 24 months. While we welcome any reduction, this delay is still very unsatisfactory. The time taken to deal with cases in Cork is double that of any other part of the country. There must be good reasons for this. I ask that something positive be done. The need for a permanent High Court in Cork is very clearly spelt out by the Minister's own admission of the delays experienced.

There has recently been considerable criticism of the inability or unwillingness of our courts to develop to meet modern circumstances. If we are considering reform, it is important to examine the existing courts system. We need to know what is required of the system, if these requirements are being met and, if not, to establish the reasons for that failure. The public want justice to be administered in an even-handed and reasonably uniform manner, without bias in favour of any parties or individuals before the court and want the Judiciary to be able to carry out these functions independently.

Most important, from the citizen's point of view, is the speed of justice. Justice must be administered without delay in both criminal and civil cases. The old adage, "Justice delayed is justice denied" is as true today as when it was coined. From time to time concern has been expressed about the wide variations of sentences which are imposed for similar crimes. I accept that the circumstances of each case may be different and the character of each accused may be different and may require individual consideration. Nevertheless, particularly in the case of drugs and drug-related offences and attacks on the elderly, there is a clear need for an updating policy on sentencing.

I am sure I do not have to spell out to the Minister the widespread public concern that has been expressed over the past couple of years regarding some of the sentencing. Like us all, the Judiciary are human beings. The public generally are at a loss to know how certain sentences can differ from others. If the public were administering the law they would be very clear as to how they would do it.

It is easy to say that when looking at it from outside because one would not have all the facts. Even though the Judiciary cannot be interfered with, the Minister has an obligation and a duty to ensure that every possible resource is made available to them. Some form of commission must be set up to assist or advise them regarding sentencing.

We have all come across cases where people have been very irritated and vexed when serious criminals who have committed major crimes get off scot-free with suspended sentences. We often hear of cases where the excessive use of alcohol is used as an excuse for doing something wrong. Immediate attention should be given to this area. The public feel that the whole legal system is wrong and that there is no justice any more. We have too much law and not enough justice. We will all be the sufferers in the end if this whole area is not tackled quickly.

As has been mentioned by some of the previous speakers, it is almost a year since the Whitaker report on the penal justice system was published. There is still no indication that the Minister is prepared to take any action to implement any of the recommendations of the expert commission. According to the Minister the recommendations are still under consideration in the Department. I wonder what priority they are receiving in the Department.

The Deputy has five minutes to conclude.

Is this another delaying tactic to block change or progress? Is the Minister afraid that the independent prisons board might be over critical of his approach to the many serious problems facing the prison system?

Have you an opinion about any of the recommendations?

I have five minutes remaining and I will convey opinions. The Minister should not be cynical or smart with me because I can take him on quite easily. I am upsetting the Minister, but he should keep a cool head. He has failed totally. I have other matters which I wish to raise. The Minister is not getting off that lightly. If I had another 20 minutes I would tell the Minister how dismal his failure is.

You would be more than welcome.

It took the people three years to find out how the Minister operated in the Department of Finance but it will not take that long to find out how he is operating in the Department of Justice. With respect, I have treated the Minister with kindness so he should keep his comments to himself. If we do not grapple with the problems in the prisons very quickly, we will have major problems. It is not good enough to knock everybody else. When the Garda Representative Body make a comment and the Commissioner is upset, or when the Prison Officers' Association speak out and it hurts somebody, they should not be cut off because it affects some antiquated official in the Department of Justice who is out of touch with reality. They should discuss these matters. Major problems in our prisons are being covered up. You, Minister, are the man with the responsibility to face up to that. There is a report on your desk and I want to know what you are doing about it. When will action be taken on it?

The Deputy should address the Minister through the Chair.

The public are totally disillusioned with your performance as Minister. We want to know what you are going to do about the major problems facing the people. When are you going to spell out what your actions will be regarding the issues facing the public, including the prisons, the courts and the dismal performance with regard to the Garda and the top brass? Half of them are in the Phoenix Park. What are they doing there? They are in ivory towers and out of touch with the reality of what is happening on the street. The gardaí are totally disillusioned with their supervisors. They are your responsibility, Minister. If I was here for the next 20 minutes I would point out a few things to you about your commissions and your reports which are gathering dust on your desk.

The Deputy should address the Chair and should not address the Minister directly.

With respect, a Cheann Comhairle, when the Minister interrupted me you did not call him to order.

I do not want to cut in on the Deputy but it is long-standing practice that the third person should be used in debates.

I came up from Cork especially for this debate. I am the only Member from the south on the Select Committee on Crime, Lawlessness and Vandalism. I have tried to contribute in a positive and constructive way, at all times bearing in mind the problems the Minister has. I reject his cynicism and his passing comments on what I have to say. The Minister is fully aware of the problems. He has been listening to more people than I have. He has heard people from different organisations but he is sidestepping every one of them. He has been a failure as Minister for Justice. He is not tackling the problems and that is the way the public see it. I hope the time will come shortly when we will have an opportunity to implement some of the policies that are needed to give confidence to the people so that they can walk the streets of Cork, Dublin and everywhere else in the knowledge that people are running the country who are familiar with the problems and not totally removed from reality.

There have been a couple of major cases in recent years the handling and the result of which have undermined the judicial process. They have definitely weakened the public's belief in the system of justice in Ireland. There was widespread dissatisfaction as a result of the nolle prosequi that was entered into in the McArthur case in relation to the murder of Donal Dunne. The so-called Fairview Park manslaughter was debated in this House on 10 March 1983. There were up to 15 contributions and it was regarded as one of the best debates held here by the then Fianna Fáil Chief Whip and now spokesman on Labour, Deputy Ahern. Deputy Haughey, the Leader of the Opposition, participated as did the Minister for Justice and two junior Government Ministers. The Fairview Park case caused disquiet and hence it was raised.

For the guidance of Deputy Skelly, we cannot refer to specific cases.

On 10 March 1983 a debate was conducted which dealt entirely with a specific case. I have the extracts from 12 different speakers which I can read——

That was done by way of statements. I remember the case well.

There were 12 different statements and I can read some of them. One was by Deputy Dr. Woods. He said that the tragic case in Fairview demanded urgent action from the Minister for Justice and the Government. He said that the questions which were raised in the Fairview case must be answered and that there was an onus on the Minister to deal with the questions which remained to be answered.

I want to guide the Deputy. This is an Estimate for a Department and only matters for which the Minister for Justice is responsible can be raised.

If I could make my contribution the Ceann Comhairle would find that I am dealing directly with it.

I know the Deputy has a restricted time and I do not want to be cutting in on him. That is why I am guiding him. He cannot refer to specific cases. If he does he will be out of order.

I have researched this case very carefully and I will try to avoid, as far as possible, mentioning anything that I am not in order in mentioning. I have gone to the trouble of getting books out of the Library regarding what was dealt with in this House before.

I must get the Deputy on the rails. When he refers to the previous discussion on this case it was not dealt with on an Estimate. It was dealt with on statements which it was agreed to make to the House. This is an Estimate on which——

It refers to the Department of Justice.

It was not dealt with on an Estimate for the Department of Justice. This is such an Estimate.

On a point of order, may I draw the Ceann Comhairle's attention to the Minister's speech where he specifically said: "my responsibility also extends, of course, to the promotion of legislation relating to the establishment, jurisdiction and functioning of the various courts..."

Yes, but not the conduct of cases in court.

The conduct of the courts.

The Deputy can leave it to the Chair.

Deputy Haughey, leader of the Opposition, participated as did the Minister for Justice and two Ministers of State. The Fairview Park case caused disquiet and, hence, it was raised.

I am not going to allow the Deputy to go on on those lines. I have explained to him why.

Both the people and the courts must be aware of the disquiet and controversy caused by these cases. The public awareness was heightened by the Kerry Babies Tribunal last year. Common sense should have warned the authorities that this other case was going to be a controversial one pertaining as it does to the elements of wealth, society, sex, drink and the Catholic Church. The people wanted to see justice done.

I am ruling at this stage that the Deputy cannot proceed on those lines. I am very sorry. If he proceeds, I will have to rule him out of order and take the necessary action under Standing Orders. I do not want to do that. I have explained to the Deputy that if he wants to deal with the case he is leading up to, he can put down a specific and substantive motion and have it debated in the House. I cannot sit here and allow him continue as he is endeavouring to continue.

I have tried to put down motions, as the Ceann Comhairle knows but he has ruled them all out of order. I am speaking in a general sense with certain references. I do not intend to go into the case in any detail whatsoever.

If the Deputy goes on——

The people do not believe that justice was done. Some people——

That is a charge.

It is a general statement.

It is not. It is a charge against the judge who tried the case. It is a specific charge in reference to a specific case and its conduct. The Dáil is not a court of appeal. If we were ever to reach the stage when decisions of the courts would be subject to appeal in this Chamber, it would be very bad. I cannot allow it, Deputy, and I will not.

Deputy McGahon said he had no qualms about criticising the judge in this case or any other of our judges, that the decision in this case was unbelievable. Deputy Harney said she appreciated——

I am now in the Chair and I am dealing with this.

It is grossly unfair. I can quote 12 to 15 Deputies. What they said was much more severe than what I will say. I promise the Chair that I will not go into any details of the case.

The Deputy has already indicated that he proposes dealing with a specific case and the manner in which it was dealt with in court. That cannot be allowed.

I am talking about the administration of justice, our courts system and what we can do about it.

The Deputy can do that in a general way without reference to specific cases. Once he comes to a specific case, he is out.

I do not want to use up my time but I could very easily refute that. I will merely refer to what took place here on 10 March.

I have explained to the Deputy——

The Ceann Comhairle does not want me to bring this up.

What did the Deputy say?

The Ceann Comhairle, obviously, does not want me to bring this up. I am talking about justice.

I do not want the Deputy to bring it up because it is against the order and rules of the House. I have explained to the Deputy that the Fairview Park case was dealt with here on statements, not on an Estimate. This is an Estimate.

It is about justice. Some people no longer believe that justice can be done in this State. Instead, we have the family calling it a shambles and a travesty of justice. The public believe that this case smells. As a Deputy, I see it as my responsibility to raise the matter. I am not trying to stir the pot. The conduct of the trial — I am not going to go into it — did nothing to dispel the growing belief among the large majority of the people that justice was not done.

That is a reflection on the judge who tried the case. The Deputy will resume his seat. The judge's salary is not a charge on the Vote for the Department of Justice. It is a charge on the Central Fund. That is for a specific reason. Judges' actions and conduct cannot be discussed in this House unless on a substantive motion put down in a formal way.

I have no desire to raise anything about the judge. Deputy Wallace talked about Cork city and its problems. People believed that if this happened in the inner city or in part of my constitutency of Ballyfermot, Inchicore and Clondalkin, it would have been handled differently. People are unhappy that the case was not allowed to go to the jury for consideration.

The Deputy will resume his seat. The Deputy has said that the case was not allowed to go to the jury. That is a reflection straight away on the judge.

I am entitled to say it as the case is finished.

The Deputy is not so entitled. He will resume his seat and he will do so now.

The people are unhappy that the case was not allowed to go to the jury for consideration. My concern is that a man lies dead with a pall hanging over his name.

I am adjourning the House for ten minutes.

On a point of order, a Cheann Comhairle, why should you have to do that? Running away from it will not solve it.

Sitting suspended at 1.35 p.m. and resumed at 1.45 p.m.

In accordance with an order of the House made today I am calling on the Minister for Justice to conclude the debate.

During the course——

On a point of order, I understand that, in accordance with the rules of the House, I have ten minutes left to speak.

No, that is not right, Deputy, I am sorry.

Can you tell me, a Cheann Comhairle, in accordance with what Standing Order——

There is an order of the House that I am to call on the Minister to conclude at 1.45 p.m. and I must do that.

I beg to differ with you, Sir. You adjourned the House for ten minutes——

That does not matter, Deputy, that was not the fault of the Chair.

Something must matter. I have ten minutes left to speak and——

I am calling on the Minister to conclude the debate.

You may call on the Minister but I am going to say what I have to say.

I am calling on the Minister to conclude the debate——

I do not mind whether you call the Minister. I am going to say what I have to say.

I am calling on the Minister to conclude the debate.

As a Member of Parliament I refuse to be treated——

I am acting in accordance with the procedures of the House. The Chair has no alternative.

A Cheann Comhairle, on a further point of order, I like Deputy Skelly, was waiting to speak. It seems to me to be unreasonable to adjourn the House and then to resume——

Deputy Keating is now questioning the ruling of the Chair——

I am doing so in a courteous fashion.

Deputy Keating is questioning the ruling of the Chair.

I am saying it is very convenient to adjourn the House and reconvene it precisely when the Minister is due to conclude. That is bordering on fascism.

The Deputy will withdraw that remark.

I will do it this time but if this continues——

The Deputy will withdraw that remark without condition.

I am simply saying——

The Deputy will withdraw that remark without condition.

I have no desire whatsoever to make any allegation against the Chair and, if it causes offence, I will withdraw it, certainly. But I want to say that if this becomes the pattern——

The Deputy will resume his seat now.

May I make a further point of order?

The Deputy will resume his seat at once.

On a further point of order——

It is not a point of order.

I want to ask: was it a rule of the House or part of the agreement this morning that the House would be adjourned for ten minutes? What was the reason for adjourning it?

In order to get some order into the House because the Chair was defied and ignored.

Well its reconvening happily coincides with the time that the Minister is expected to conclude, which means that two Members have not been able to contribute. I strongly object to that. I hope it does not become a pattern because, if so, you will have reason to adjourn it fairly regularly.

I am calling on the Minister.

Before the House was adjourned——

During the course——

I am sorry, the Deputy must resume his seat. The Deputy is trying to walk through the rules of this House. He is ignoring the rulings of the Chair, the custodian of law and order in the House. He is ignoring the interpretation of Standing Orders and an order of the House made this morning. I would appeal to him to co-operate with the Chair. I am calling on the Minister.

I have a right to resume and I am going to talk about the office of the Director of Public Prosecutions.

I am calling on the Minister.

I am talking too and I want to talk about the office of the Director of Public Prosecutions and what we can do about it.

Even if the Deputy were in order he cannot discuss the office of the Director of Public Prosecutions. I must ask the Deputy to resume his seat.

I am afraid I cannot.

Then I must ask the Deputy to withdraw from the House.

I will not withdraw from the House.

The House is adjourned until 2 o'clock.

Sitting suspended at 1.50 p.m. and resumed at 2 p.m.

As it is now 2 o'clock, I have to put the question that——

On a point of order——

Deputy Skelly, I asked you to leave the House and I am requesting you again to leave the House.

I just want to state that I intend next week to raise this matter by way of formal motion in the House.

That is another day's work.

Deputy Skelly withdrew from the Chamber.

I want to register a protest from this side of the House at the manner in which you accepted the flouting of a ruling by the Chair. On numerous occasions Members on this side of the House have been ordered to leave the House for much less than we have witnessed this afternoon. Your role as Ceann Comhairle was deliberately flouted and instead of taking appropriate action you walked away from it.

I adjourned the House as I have done on a number of previous occasions. I would expect that I would get the co-operation of the Chief Whip of the Fianna Fáil party. There is a precedent where I did adjourn the House on a number of occasions in an attempt to get order.

Lest there be any misunderstanding, you have always got full support and co-operation from this side of the House and will continue to get it. I feel that your actions were a little on the soft side.

On previous occasions I have done what I did today.

As a result of what has happened I have been denied the opportunity to ask questions of the Minister at the end.

That is not the Chair's fault.

I appreciate that. Now that the Army and the Naval Service have got their helicopters, where are the two helicopters for the Garda?

(Interruptions.)

Order, please. I am putting the question that Vote 24 be agreed to.

Vote put and agreed to.
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