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Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 1 Jul 1986

Vol. 368 No. 8

National Lottery Bill, 1986: Second Stage (Resumed).

Question again proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

This Bill is a form of tax collection being devised by the Minister for Finance for the very hard-pressed consumers and the public. There are many flaws in the proposals being put forward at this stage. The intentions announced some time ago by different Ministers in relation to this Bill indicate that there has been a major change of emphasis since the proposals were initially put forward. I refer particularly to section 3 of the Bill which, the explanatory memorandum states, enables the Minister to grant a licence to a person authorising the holding of the national lottery on the Minister's behalf. I understand that An Bord Post have been allocated the franchise for this national lottery. I believe that An Post are ideally suited to be the holders of the franchise to carry out the work on behalf of the Department of Finance. An Post have in the region of 2,000 offices spread in every village throughout the country. They are now geared up to launch the lottery in the very near future. The Minister has decided for some reason or other to exclude specific mention of An Post in relation to this legislation. Section 3 states:

(1) (a) The Minister may grant a licence to a person authorising the holding on behalf of the Minister of the National Lottery.

(b) Not more than one licence under this subsection shall be in force at any time.

Apparently the Minister has given a commitment to An Post that they will be granted the franchise, but there is no reference to An Post in the Bill. We would like to know what the position is.

The Bill itself is a kind of a lottery because there have been conflicting reports that representations have been made by different organisations. We have been told that a very prominent national handler, Frank Flannery, has been very active on behalf of certain organisations, and we have been told that all these claims for the franchise have been discussed by the Cabinet after which a decision was made to grant the franchise to An Post. Perhaps there has been a decision to reverse that. I presume the Government will have enough votes to get the Bill through despite certain opposition by this side of the House.

Our main criticism is that we have been kept in ignorance of how the proceeds will be allocated. Apparently the fund will be taken in by the Department of Finance and it can be devoted to a multiplicity of causes. There is no guarantee that a percentage will be awarded to sporting and cultural organisations. Therefore, we are anxious that the Minister should clear up this matter. The fund should be kept completely separate from the Department of Finance and stated budgets should be devoted to supporting cultural and sporting activities. Much money is being spent at the moment on other lotteries but this will be far more successful. I can see many demands in my constituency, and in my own parish of Fuerty there are organisations who will be making demands and who would benefit greatly. However, apparently the Department of Finance are prepared to absorb the proceeds instead of appointing an autonomous group to administer the funds.

It is rather sinister that the Department have excluded An Post from the Bill and I hope the Minister will rectify this omission on Committee Stage. Section 15 states:

(1) The determination by the Company of the remuneration (including superannuation and any allowances for expenses) and other terms and conditions of service of the staff of the Company shall be subject to the approval of the Minister given with the consent of the Minister for the Public Service.

Subsection (2) refers to remuneration or allowances for expenses to be paid to the staff of the company. The unions in An Post have made it clear they are not satisfied with this provision and consequently they are seeking for deletion of the section, in anticipation, of course, that An Post will be given the franchise and that there has not been a change of mind.

At the moment, other organisations operating lotteries are hard pressed and, therefore, it seems to be inappropriate to bring in this form of taxation, albeit the lottery will be voluntary. It will be agreed that people addicted to gambling will find this form of lottery compulsory because they will be attracted by the better prizes and they will be inclined to invest more than they can afford. People in the lower income groups are generally more attracted to lotteries and this may create problems for them and their families.

I should like the Minister to let us know what will be the status of lotteries run by such organisations as Gael Linn, the Mater Hospital Pools, the Rehabilitation Centre and other such organisations. Will they be restricted or will they be able to continue to hold their lotteries? The Bill is not clear in this regard. There is no reason why they should not be allowed to continue. They will be under great pressure from this new competition. They have been providing much needed finances for charitable purposes.

The Minister should make clear what the intentions are in regard to the percentage of the proceeds to be allowed for administration. The Bill will allocate 40 per cent for prizes and we should be made aware of the percentage to be allowed for expenses and all administrative costs. A limit should be prescribed for the overheads of the company and we should be told how much will be allocated to sporting and cultural organisations. There should be a clear indication whether it is the intention to establish a representative body to administer the proceeds so that it will become clear that it will not be organised on a party political basis or that grants will not be awarded in a purely political way. It would politicise the national lottery and would be detrimental to its success if it were clearly seen by the public that the funds which accrued would be used by the Government for party political reasons in the constituencies.

I appreciate that, with the opinion polls indicating such a low level of support for the Government parties, in particular for the Labour Party whose support is down to about 3 per cent at present, it would be very tempting for the Minister for Finance to use the proceeds from the national lottery to bolster politicians who may be in electoral difficulties. I know many Labour and Fine Gael Deputies who would be very tempted to apply for major allocations to their constituencies to the detriment of Opposition Deputies. That is being realistic and down to earth. The Minister of State is well aware of the method by which he is allocating funds in West Cork and how a windfall to the State has been used for party political purposes. In this case, there would be global allocations to constituencies. If that is the case, we can be assured it will become a party political type lottery and will not attract widespread support from all interested parties.

As we represent over 51 per cent of the electorate, if the proceeds were to be used for purely party political purposes it would be detrimental——

Is the Deputy making a claim for 51 per cent?

We are satisfied that the polls indicate that we have 51 per cent of national support. This has been proved by recent opinion polls. We will not give much credence to all opinion polls as they have been proved to be incorrect in the last week or so. Nevertheless, on a conservative basis and reckoning we would feel we represent over 51 per cent of the total electorate.

I appeal to the Minister to make this a totally non-political lottery. The proceeds should be allocated on a fair and equitable basis having regard to the demands and needs throughout the country for sport and recreational purposes. I commend the former Minister of State, Deputy Creed, who has indicated his opposition to some items in the Bill. He announced on many occasions the benefits which would accrue from the national lottery and said he would be responsible for bringing the Bill forward. I regret that Deputy Creed will not be Minister of State with responsibility for sports. I say this genuinely. I found Deputy Creed a most responsible Minister of State and responsive to the demands and needs of the people in relation to school transport and sporting facilities. Deputy Creed feels the maximum of the profits, 75 per cent, should be allocated to sporting and recreational facilities.

Part of the funds should be allocated to the national sports centre which I hope will be located near my constituency in Athlone which is the centre of Ireland and would be ideal for a national sports centre. I would like it to be in my own constituency but, being realistic, it is better to opt for a constituency very close to one's own when one sees there is a very good opportunity of making that proposal a reality. That is why Roscommon County Council have indicated their full support for the location of the national sports centre in Athlone. It is an ideal location and I hope the Minister of State will indicate his support for the location of the national sports centre in Athlone. That would be a worthwhile beneficiary from the national lottery. It would be seen as a suitable investment for the proceeds from the lottery.

Sporting and recreational facilities are the best possible areas of investment to prevent crime among young people and to give them the opportunity to spend leisure time in ideal locations. We have made great progress over the past few years in the provision of sporting facilities. The work of AnCO should be recognised in the building of sporting facilities for local community groups. A lot of work remains to be done. There are areas in my constituency where we could usefully spend part of the proceeds from the national lottery. For instance, in the town of Ballymoe in the constituency of Roscommon-Galway, they are proceeding to build a community centre and they would welcome a major investment from the proceeds of the national lottery. It is a very small community which has a great tradition behind it, a tradition which has been recognised in the naming of the community centre after the famous Fr. Flanagan of Boys' Town. It would be very appropriate if some of the proceeds of the national lottery were used to finance the building of a community centre which would be non-political and non-denominational in the town of Ballymoe.

It would be an extremely good investment to provide funds for the erection of a covered swimming pool in Castlerea, County Roscommon. It is a matter of an investment of £200,000 to cover an open air swimming pool in that town. It would provide a worthwhile investment in an inland county which is surrounded on all sides by the River Shannon and River Suck. We need to train our young people to become proficient in swimming. An investment of £200,000 would be worth while and would provide a much needed facility all the year around.

These are the kinds of investments which should come from the national lottery. The Department of Finance should not call on this money to finance other functions, for example, health matters which at this stage are being financed by the Central Exchequer. In all other constituencies there are areas which need recreational facilities. Some of the funds could be used to finance sporting and recreational facilities attached to major schools which would be open to the public. Gymnasia also would be a worth-while investment.

We have expressed our reservations on the Bill. We are not excluding the setting up of a suitable national lottery which will be properly administered. There are many flaws in this Bill which should be rectified by the Minister before it completes all stages in this House. My main objection is that An Post who were initially named as the company to be allocated the franchise have not been nominated in the Bill. That should be rectified to give a status to An Post and enable the company to proceed with the role of providing a national lottery. They are very well equipped. They are a very efficient company who are geared towards the provision of additional services. They have outlets which are very well placed throughout the country.

As regards the fund, it should be stated quite clearly that it will be a separate fund which will be used for sporting, recreational and cultural matters. The fund should be administered on a non-political basis by a non-political group including representatives of sporting and national organisations. Any local community could apply in an open manner for support and the application would not be dealt with in a partisan manner. This would be very acceptable to all sides of the House because sports should be above party politics.

These are the major flaws I see in the Bill. I would also refer to the labour negotiations with the unions and I would ask the Minister to make adjustments to section 15. Trade union representatives who are very familiar with the workings of An Post believe that these provisions would make the operation of the lottery very difficult.

I appeal to the people entrusted with responsibility for the lottery to have all tickets and other material printed in Ireland. There should be a totally Irish involvement in all aspects of the organisation and running of the lottery. There is no justification for purchasing ideas for lotteries from other countries or engaging outside specialists.

The funds are badly required but there is a feeling among the public generally that the lottery is not a welcome development. People are very hard-pressed by excessive taxation and feel this is an attempt by the Department of Finance to raise revenue in an indirect way. The Minister should dispel the fears of the public and make the Bill and the lottery more attractive and suitable. The Bill could be amended on Committee Stage to make it more acceptable to the public generally.

I welcome the opportunity to speak on this Bill. I support the concept of a national lottery which I hope will benefit sports organisations, the arts, cultural activities and recreational facilities. I hope that the various questions which have been raised in the course of this debate will be answered by the Minister when concluding or on Committee Stage. I welcome the decision in principle to go ahead with the national lottery but it is important that the running of it and the benefits that will accrue should be fully thought out and properly promoted.

The Minister mentioned that 40 or 50 jobs would be created but it would be less than honest if we did not draw attention to the fact that some 140 or 150 people have been laid off or are working only on a temporary basis for the longstanding Hospitals Trust. It has been indicated that An Post are to run this lottery but I am sure various submissions were made by other organisations who felt they could best run it. I do not know what these various submissions contained or what tipped the scales in favour of An Post. However, in view of the successful operations of the Hospitals Trust over the past 55 years, I would have thought that some individuals or some aspects of their expertise would have been availed of. Time will tell whether An Post or a subsidiary will run this venture successfully. When we are talking about an extra 40 or 50 jobs being created, let us not forget that 150 or even 200 people will find themselves left on the scrap heap. Certain representations were made regarding the running of some other type of draw and I hope that a definite response, be it positive or negative, will be given to the Hospitals Trust. If they are totally out, they should be told. We must look at the net situation in regard to jobs. I do not know how the decision was reached as to who should run the draw but I hope that the people from the Hospitals Trust will not find themselves in the same position as the former employees of Irish Shipping. If a communication has been received from the Hospitals Trust, a definite response should be given.

I do not know exactly what was in An Post's submission. As I did not see any submission I am not aware of what tipped the scales in favour of An Post, but it appears that they, or a subsidiary, will run the lottery. I wish that body every success in the promotion of the lottery and I presume certain rules and guidelines will be laid down. A person who pointed to the limited success of An Post in the collection of TV licence fees asked me if they would be successful in collecting what will be an optional contribution to the lottery. Is it the intention of An Post to recruit specialists to promote the lottery or will officials of that organisation undergo special training?

If the lottery is to be a success An Post will have to embark on a major promotion programme. Obviously, the prize will be an attraction but people will be encouraged to buy tickets if they are aware of the organisations that will benefit from the fund. A national lottery has proved successful in Australia, America, Sweden, New Zealand and Brazil and there is no reason why it should not succeed here. The lottery in those countries has caught the public imagination with people hoping to hit the jackpot but another important factor was that people were aware that a big percentage of the money collected in the lottery benefited the community.

We are all aware of our great sporting tradition and the constant demands on the Exchequer to provide money for sports facilities. A lot of money is needed if we are to maintain our standard at international level. Those who get expert tuition, such as those who go abroad on athletics scholarships, can compete with the best in the world. I hope funds from the lottery will be used to provide recreational facilities in deprived areas. Money should be devoted to cultural activities and so on and the public will have to be assured that the money will not be used by Ministers for other projects.

They will have to be made aware that Ministers will not nip away at the till for other activities.

I would prefer if the distribution were done by a different body that would deal with applications for assistance. That body should consist of representatives from different sports and the arts. The distribution of the funds should be done by an independent group and I hope the lottery will not be used as a top-up by the Departments of Finance or Education. I hope the administration costs will be minimal. It will be difficult to sell tickets in the lottery if people consider it a top-up for the tax man. The Government should consider establishing an independent group to deal with applications for assistance. Areas without a theatre or sporting facilities should be given special consideration. We should not see a repeat of what happened earlier this year when a festival was refused financial assistance.

All moneys collected in the lottery should be accounted for. We should not be given a global figure without being told what areas benefited from the lottery. I hope the money is no siphoned off and put into other projects. It will be difficult to promote the lottery if it is not made clear that sport and the arts will benefit.

I expect the initial response to the lottery to be good but it will be necessary to promote it continuously. The tickets should be sold in outlets other than post offices. In my view post offices are busy dealing with pension books, postal orders and stamps. A person anxious to buy a ticket in the lottery will not wait too long if there is a big queue for pensions or stamps. What other outlets are envisaged? Tickets for the lottery will have to be readily available and that will mean selling them in pubs and shops. It will be necessary to carry out a publicity campaign following each draw. I am sure most people who have prize bonds cannot identify their numbers when the results of the weekly draws are announced.

Will the Minister tell the House how the national lottery will affect the existing draws organised by charitable organisations? We are all offered tickets daily for such draws.

In his speech the Minister indicated that provisions had been included in the Bill to protect and enhance the position of existing charitable and voluntary lotteries. That appears to be fine but will it work out? Already the national lottery has hit the workers in the Hospitals Trust and many are now out of work. In his reply I should like the Minister to indicate what assurances he can give existing charities in view of the effect of the national lottery on them. It is obvious that the greater the proportion of funds given to the national lottery the smaller will be the amount given to existing charities. Many of the flag days and draws are organised by bodies who do valuable voluntary work. Those involved in such groups are dedicated people. It is important that certain safeguards or assurances be given that the voluntary organisations will not suffer. I should like the Minister to indicate what discussions have taken place with the other charities in relation to the effect the national lottery will have on them. Will the lottery be able to work in tandem with them? It is obvious that there will be a certain amount of competition and that there will be winners and losers. The chances are that the State lottery will take over from some of the existing organisations.

It is inevitable that there will be difficulties in running the national lottery, particularly in the initial stages. As a country we are good at contributing towards charities but we are not used to a system of weekly draws. Apparently An Post have been awarded the national lottery but they have not been named in the Bill. Irrespective of who runs the national lottery, the Minister should tell us, for example, when the lottery tickets will be put on sale and where they will be available. Reference has been made to the jobs that will be created but we do not know how many will get work. Will it be a case of an extra 40 or 50 jobs or will the people recruited have special knowledge in relation to the running, promotion and selling of the lottery? In order to catch the public imagination the national lottery will have to be sold on a few fronts.

People will not buy tickets on a weekly basis unless they are reassured as to where the money is going and what is happening to it. Apart from the money allocated for prizes and the amount necessary for administration purposes, the public will have to be assured that the remainder is used for the purpose intended, namely, towards sports and the arts. If a special body is not set up to ensure that this happens the whole scheme will run into difficulties. If such a special committee were set up they could advise on special projects that might be partially funded.

Reference has been made to a national sports centre. Wherever it is sited, I hope it is in an area accessible to many people. While all of us would like to have it in our own constituency, personally I have no hang-up about the matter as long as it is a success. At the moment there is a proposal in Dún Laoghaire for the development of a marina to allow for a greater range of sea-going activities. The proposal involves the reclaiming of land. Perhaps the Dún Laoghaire Corporation or the other bodies involved in the development of the marina could put in a claim for some of the funds. The availability of the DART has ensured that Dún Laoghaire is easily accessible to very many people. I hope details will be given about where the money will be spent so that people will not think the proceeds of the lottery are being swallowed up by the Exchequer.

It is obvious it will be necessary to provide funds to start the project and perhaps the Minister will indicate what amount will be provided. While some matters have been clarified, much of the detail of the scheme has been left very vague. It is important that the promotion and selling of the national lottery in the early days be successful. If the project falls on its face initially, the chances are it will never succeed. When it is launched later in the year there should be adequate publicity so that people will be aware of the facts, will know the various outlets and so on. We must operate it successfully, as has been the case in other countries. It is important that the scheme should catch the public imagination. Obviously the chance of winning a jackpot prize for a small amount of money will have its appeal and even if people are not successful they will be happy to continue purchasing tickets when they realise that much of the money will go towards the provision of recreational and sporting facilities and for the promotion of the arts, health care and so on.

I do not know what was in the submission of An Post that tipped the scales in their favour. I do not know who made the decision. However, I have to question this body who will be selling these tickets because they have not exactly covered themselves in glory collecting RTE fees. If An Post get sidetracked selling these tickets, there might be a case to be made to transfer the collection of licence fees to RTE or to some other body. Apparently the World Cup led to a boom in discovering people without licences because the detectors knew people would be watching the matches, especially the late night matches. It will be interesting to see the number of cases and fines which will be imposed in a few months' time because people did not have a television licence.

It has been mentioned that 40 or 50 jobs will be created. I hope there will be many spin-off benefits to Irish businesses. This lottery has affected 140 to 150 people working in the Hospitals Trust and their families. We must weigh the loss of 150 jobs against the creation of 40 or 50 jobs. A decision should be made soon and this pussyfooting must stop.

I welcome the concept of a lottery and hope it will be a success. Definite benefits can accrue to the people, to sport and to the arts from a lottery, but there are inherent dangers because, if it is not a success or if the money is not seen to benefit certain areas, the lottery could be a flop. Perhaps the Minister will reply to some of the points I have made.

I should like to put the emphasis of my contribution on the effects of the proposed national lottery on existing local, parochial, county and semi-national lotteries. In this Bill, with 37 sections, there are a great number of unanswered questions. It is fine for the Minister to state good intentions about the possibilities of this lottery, but we know from recent experience that intentions on another piece of legislation had to be changed within a few weeks and we had a new set of intentions. If that activity achieved anything it was that it raised great doubts in the minds of the people. I am speaking about the recent proposed amendment to the Constitution.

In this Bill we have intentions which are not specifically included. I have read through this Bill time and again to see how the existing fund-raising activities around the country will be accommodated. Is it intended that the national lottery will supersede all the draws, raffles and so on throughout the country? For instance, Cumann Luthchleas Gael run a very satisfactory Ciste Gael competition or lottery, a lottery which is used by the 32 counties. There may be other lotteries, like the Mater, the Belfast one and so on, but is it proposed in this legislation that the national lottery will wipe out the Ciste Gael lottery of Cumann Luthchleas Gael? If that is the intention, the Government had better have a rethink. One element which is necessary for the success of any lottery — and this is something to which the Government do not appear to have given any consideration — is the loyalty of the people to a particular aim, ideal or fund. I honestly believe this will be missing from the proposed lottery. In any parish where a raffle or lottery is mooted the loyalty and commitment of the people of that area come into play and the people get involved because the benefits of the lottery will be seen locally and will be for the betterment of the people.

I am sure every Deputy in this House is subscribing to draws for five weeks, ten weeks or even for 52 weeks. The parish of Inniscarra collected close on £60,000 from the people who gave their loyalty and commitment to that draw because it was for the parish. The same happened in Grenagh and Whitechurch. I am giving as examples the parish where I live and the neighbouring parishes. I have already referred to the sporting organisation to which I belong and which I see threatened by this proposal. Before this debate is over, if the Minister tries to convince me that I am not correct, I will give his reply all the attention it deserves. In this national lottery that local loyalty and commitment will be missing as sure as day follows night.

I have no intention of politicising this venture but, in their efforts to launch this national lottery, the Government got into a right political tangle about who would be given responsibility for it. A number of statements have been made that An Post will be entrusted with the operation of this lottery, but is it not surprising that nowhere in the 37 sections of this Bill is An Post mentioned? The post office savings bank is mentioned in section 8(2)(f)(ii) which says:

An investment under this paragraph shall be in securities in which trustees are for the time being authorised by law to invest trust funds or in any of the stocks, funds or securities in which moneys of the Post Office Savings Banks are for the time being authorised to be invested.

That is the only reference I could find in that Bill to An Post being given a licence. There is much mention of a company. These references are incomplete. To whom is the franchise to be given to run this proposed lottery? Who is to be responsible?

Let me next pose the question: at whom is this lottery aimed? It is the people who will be hoping to win the prizes who are mentioned. It will be up to the company to indicate what the prize money will be, but the Bill indicates that it will be substantial. Because of the economic situation and because of unemployment in particular many people have been devastated by the economic events of the past years and cannot afford to go on holidays within the country let alone go to resorts outside the country whether in Costa del Sol, costa del fortune or whatever you like to call it. Many of those people out of sheer hope will see in this lottery possibly the only opportunity they will ever have to take a holiday. The danger is that out of their meagre resources they will plunge — that is a better word to use than "invest"— into this lottery if it becomes a reality. Many thousands of people will gamble anyway and if they do not win they will accept that, but quite a number of people will experience an enormous feeling of depression, of failure at having been trapped into this lottery. They are not the people I mentioned who are involved in the various lotteries, draws and raffles operated throughout the length and breadth of this country. I see this Bill as proposing not alone to supersede those draws and raffles but to wipe them out entirely.

Nowhere does the Bill indicate how the profits attained — if there are to be profits — are to be distributed. Broad statements to the effect that profits from the national lottery will be used for sports organisations and for development of the arts and culture are not sufficient. We will have to be more specific about that, and the only way we can be specific and have it accepted by the people is to have it contained in the Bill. As I have said, good intentions from this Government are not worth the paper they are written on.

I have no wish to politicise this debate because if there is to be a national lottery it should be a national lottery. I have indicated the disagreement that was evident between sources within the Government and people supportive of the Government, whether in or out of the national handlers group, and everybody will accept that that was a detrimental way to have this proposal emerge and give it the title of a national lottery, An Bille um Chrannchur Náisiúnta. It was a pity, a shame. If the ideas and ideals of the former Minister for Sport, a man of honesty and integrity from my county, saw the benefit of such a lottery I would value his judgment. Other people, maybe at a higher level in Government, did not value his judgment and ability and moved him sideways, but that will do him no harm because the people in Cork are rebels and will answer that one when the opportunity comes.

This Government were incapable of presenting even a lottery Bill. They failed to introduce it with confidence and cohesion to the Dáil, the Oireachtas and ultimately the people. If any success is to be achieved in the promotion of a chrannchur náisiúnta it is regrettable that it should begin its life in such a manner. It is a disgrace to the Government, the Cabinet and all those people who clamoured within Government and close to Government for the setting up of this lottery. With their usual ineptitude they have thrown cold water on this proposal but I suspect it will have detrimental and serious effects on local draws and fund raising lotteries for specific purposes. Perhaps the Government realise this as they have not indicated in the Bill who will benefit by the profits from this lottery. They may be in for a rude awakening because when you try to take something dear to the hearts of the Irish people away from them you will be taught a severe lesson.

If members of the various organisations and groups throughout the country feel that this lottery will interfere with their fund-raising efforts and campaigns to provide local community centres and dressing rooms beside playing fields instead of togging out in ditches, they will fight to the bitter end — not physically — and will show where their priorities lie in a manner befitting their organisations and commitments. A number of charitable groups collect on a regular basis and, if the Government want to do something positive in this respect, they should examine some of the operations which are not so wholesome in regard to the collection of money. They should investigate and establish how much of the subscriber's amount reaches the charity or fund raising activity for which it was intended because doubts have been expressed about some activities. Therefore, it is the duty of the Government to allay the fears of the public lest it be considered that all raffles and fund raising activities should be tarred with the same brush. That would be incorrect and unfair but if there are doubts about money in a particular case — I do not allege that people are committing fraud in these raffles — an investigation should take place.

This Bill is very wordy but the central facts and the main elements are missing. There are 37 sections. Section 3 (1) (a) says that the Minister may grant a licence to a person authorising the holding on behalf of the Minister of the national lottery and (b) but not more than one licence under this subsection shall be in force at any time. I am not in the legal profession and I do not know anything about parliamentary drafting but I should like to ask what all these sections are about. They consist of beautiful language which is well phrased. Section 8 deals with the national lottery fund, section 9 deals with the remuneration of the licensee, section 10 deals with the company, section 11 deals with the memorandum of association of the company and section 12 deals with the articles of association of the company. I could go right through the Bill.

Section 15 deals with terms and conditions of employment. Subsection (1) says the determination of the company of the remuneration, including superannuation and any allowances for expenses, and other terms and conditions of service of the staff of the company shall be subject to the approval of the Minister given with the consent of the Minister for the Public Service. That sort of phraseology has turned up recently. I put an amendment down to a section of a Bill and the Minister acknowledged our objection to it by withdrawing the section. These proposals seem to be aimed at discontinuing recognition for the trade union movement. I should prefer if agreement and remunerations were freely negotiated and entered into between the company and the trade unions.

My main concern is the effect which the proposed lottery will have on local fund-raising activities. There does not seem to be any protection for these groups of people who currently provide a valuable community service. In regard to hospitals their efforts meet the short-fall in funds provided by the Department of Health. Nowhere can I find any guarantee that this proposal will not have a detrimental effect on existing fund raising activities. I wish to restate — it has to be said over and over——

It should not be said over and over.

I am going to keep on saying it——

The Deputy should not take that attitude because saying a thing over and over is repetition and repetition is not in order.

I am glad to hear that. I was not so aware.

The Chair so thought.

When people are articulate, shall I say, they can say the same thing in different ways without seeming to be repetitious but I thoroughly agree with the Chair that repetition is——

The Deputy will appreciate that when he announces to all and sundry, and in particular to the Chair, that he is going to say it over and over again, he is then putting the Chair on notice and must expect the Chair to take action.

I accept that, and to be forewarned is to be forearmed so I suppose I deserved the rap on the knuckles. I will be a little bit more choosey about forewarning in future.

Nevertheless, it is insufficient for the purposes of this Bill to have repeated good intentions outlined if the Bill has no substance. This is the case with this Bill, particularly with regard to the effects it will have on existing lotteries; there is no protection in the Bill for those worthy causes for which there are lotteries, draws and raffles at this time. There is no indication, good, bad or indifferent, of how the surplus of the lottery will be used. It is not sufficient just to state good intentions. I would prefer to see definite statements included in the 37 sections of the Bill. The Bill is full of terminology but the basic ingredient are not included.

I hope the Minister will indicate that this proposal will not in any way destroy, diminish or supersede the many charitable, sporting and community draws and raffles in every parish and county throughout the length and breadth of this country. I should like to see where the profits from the direct contributions and from the investments mentioned in the Bill will go. What are the priorities? There is mention of a central fund in the Bill and I know it is not the Central Fund that we all have in mind when we talk about a central fund, but the central fund of the lottery. I am afraid that profits that may accrue from this proposed national lottery will go to top up the other Central Fund for the day to day spending of the Government because it seems that every piece of available revenue finds its way to the same direction.

In the context of this Bill I must refer to the proposal known as the DIRT tax. because it affects the same group of charitable organisations who are accuring money for the various commitments they have. In this one year we have the taxing of their small savings and now the introduction of this lottery will further erode the activity of community associations, charitable organisations and sporting bodies.

I have made a number of specific points to which I would like to reply from the Minister. I will conclude by indicating that because of the unsatisfactory presentation of this Bill it is our intention to oppose not alone sections of it but the whole of it.

I am very relieved that Fianna Fáil are not neutral on this Bill. I would be very afraid of their stance in that instance. Unlike the last speaker, I will not take long to cover the few points I wish to make on this Bill.

First, I welcome the Bill. It meets a number of criteria which are important. It meets a Government need to provide resources for things which in other circumstances might not be provided for through normal taxation. It also extends a form of entertainment to a number of people, as part of the Irish culture and psyche is to enjoy gambling and betting and it facilitates that.

My contribution will be very brief indeed. There are just a few points I would like to put on the record of the House for the Government to consider. First, in relation to the proceeds of the lottery, I concur with the previous speaker who would like to see specified in the legislation itself where the surpluses of the lottery will go.

I should like to see the proceeds going equally in four directions, the first being sport. There is a grave need in my home town of Enniscorthy for a swimming pool, a very important recreational facility, and a local voluntary group have to raise £250,000. There is a very limited scheme by way of loan subsidy in the Department of the Environment for this type of activity. County Wexford has no athletics track. I should like the portion of the lottery proceeds which goes to sport to go for capital expenditure on sport. Money going to pay administrative expenses of an organisation tends to be latent and hidden. It would be preferable to have tangible results of the lottery in the form of capital expenditure.

Sport is very important. While he is in the House, I should like to pay tribute to the former Minister with responsibility for sport, Deputy Creed, who originated this lottery idea. This was included in Building on Reality and every Member of the House welcomed it at the time. It is disappointing, after his work, that there is no provision for sport under this Bill. I support Deputy Creed's demands that it be specified.

However, there are other needs which also should be specified. Voluntary charities, no doubt, will lose a certain element of their fund raising through the lottery.

Instant bingo cards for polio and other organisations, sold on a weekly basis, including the Enniscorthy weekly draw, HOC — Help Our Community — will be hit. The more draws there are to compete, the more the total demand will be affected. There will be some small repercussions, so I would like a quarter of the surplus to go in that direction. In the Union of Voluntary Organisations for the Handicapped there are some very worthy organisations dealing with everything from arthritis to asthma, from palsy to polio, the blind, the deaf, the Irish Cancer Society, the Haemophilia Society, Irish Kidney Association, Irish Society for Autistic Children and so on. These are all deserving causes. A quarter of the proceeds of the lottery would be ample compensation, without affecting the other needy areas.

The two remaining quarters I should like to see going, respectively, to youth and the arts. In the arts we have seen enormous difficulty due to lack of funding of the Arts Council. It is only natural, perhaps, that perceived luxuries like the arts would be hit in a time of economic recession. However, because of the cut-backs to the Arts Council funding the Wexford Opera Festival has been very severely curtailed. I have spoken to the director of that council and money this lottery could give would be deeply appreciated. A quarter would be about fair.

We are not talking about something very middle or upper class, very remote from the ordinary punter, when we are talking about the arts. One must consider the Graffiti organisations and other literary, theatrical and dramatic societies, people who are now making their livelihood out of the arts. Many hundreds of young graduates coming out of third level education with Arts degrees have no particular direction in which to go. This are needs to be developed and is deserving of a quarter of the proceeds.

With regard to youth, we all know the demographic proportions of our population, the million people in education in Ireland and the preponderance of young people. It is very important that the voluntary youth structures, whether the National Federation of Youth Clubs the National Youth Council of Ireland, or the many other subsidiary groups, including scouts, particularly in disadvantaged areas and urban communities should be assisted in their efforts, whether it is in the provision of a premises from which to do administrative work, or helping employment schemes to get off the ground, or ensuring that they get the right blend of partnership with the statutory organisations under the new National Youth Policy. All four of those areas are deserving of the proceeds of the national lottery. I should like the areas of sport, voluntary charities, youth services and the arts specified on Committee Stage.

There are some other areas in relation to the lottery on which I should like to dwell. We are all aware of the demise of the Irish sweepstakes and recognise their role in the past in generating funds for hospitals and in providing employment. One of the major advantages of the sweepstakes was that they attracted sales of tickets abroad, in other words, overseas revenue. I do not see it specified here, but I hope it is the Government's intention and that of the board overseeing the lottery that every effort will be made to attract overseas sales to bring money into this country, assuming that the lure of a big prize would hold equally well for people in Northern Ireland and the Republic. We would then be able to boost prize money as a proportion of total gross sales and generate extra revenue for the good causes I have outlined.

I understand that this lottery will be run under licence from the Minister for a two year period. We had Irish Sweepstakes Limited, An Post and a derivative of Independent Newspapers bidding. The Government were impressed by the presentation of An Post and I must concur. The network of facilities in terms of manpower, offices and sub-post offices of that organisation is unequalled in this country, especially in rural Ireland, as every household in the country is covered by An Post. Local shopkeepers cannot compete with that type of service. At a time when all State organisations are undergoing rationalisation, An Post have here one bright spot and I hope vacancies will be created for people who otherwise might have become unemployed. I have no doubt that Mr. Fergal Quinn and his cohorts and colleagues in An Post have the professionalism required to make this scheme a success.

The Bill states that at least 40 per cent of the surplus is to be given in prize money. Going by the previous provisions in the 1956 Gaming and Lotteries Act and the general run of locally run prize funds, at least 50 per cent would be a more appropriate figure. There should be no element of rip-off perceived by the public. It must be remembered that we already have two State gambling services, one the Prize Bond system and the other the Totalisator Betting Service. It could be argued that both of these present opportunities to the Exchequer to get increased revenue. The Prize Bonds organisation are very staid and conservative in their approach and outlook. With a bit more professionalism and dynamism they could raise substantially increased revenue if they advertised more and if more generous prizes were given.

In relation to the tote services, this potential has not been tapped at all. There is a great need for extra money backing to the racing industry, instead of taking taxes and levies from it. I would like that service computerised so that we would have off-course tote facilities just as we have SP betting offices on a licensed arrangement, so that the off-course punter could participate in tote betting. That would raise extra revenue, because there are certain types of bet such as place betting, forecast betting and the jackpot, which the ordinary punter cannot place except through the tote. I should like an extension of those areas, consistent with the spirit of this Bill. It would give the State a more positive and constructive role in relation to the national gambling that goes on, the State would get a better take and could provide for essential needs.

One of the fall-out effects of this Bill is on voluntary organisations and charities. I am sure all Deputies have received letters and correspondence from the Union of Voluntary Organisations for the Handicapped, which cover at least 30 organisations and are very representative. I understand there was full consultation with the relevant Minister since the lottery was announced in the national plan and it has been agreed to amend section 34 of the 1956 Gaming and Lotteries Act whereby the existing prize limits for bingo and ordinary draws will be increased from £300 to £500. In the Fine Gael draw the prizes are well in excess of that amount.

People hold numbers draws in order to get around the provisions of the Gaming and Lotteries Act. All political parties and many sporting organisations do this. The whole law needs to be up-dated. With the advent of this national lottery the special position of these voluntary and charitable bodies needs to be specifically revised. Damage will be done to their fund-raising programmes, especially those promoting weekly pools and instant number games. I welcome the effort to up-date section 34 of the Gaming and Lotteries Act. It needs to be more specific and to state that special provision will be given to these agencies whereby they will be compensated for any losses arising out of the lottery. I also ask that they be given representation on the board of the company of the lottery.

Turning to the administration of the lottery it is often the case that, where a State organisation runs something like this, the first thing they do is get a head office with very expensive overheads. That is one sure way that this lottery will fail. It is very important to remember that most of the lotteries that are voluntarily run are run on zero overheads. They are run voluntarily by people who give up their own time and their own expenses. If there is a very cumbersome, bureaucratic and expensive administrative system running this lottery, they will run into some fatal errors whereby people will see that their money is not going towards a good cause but is being wasted. I urge An Post, the board which will run the lottery, to have a very thrifty, prudent and tight approach to their overheads.

The people who are already agents for selling weekly tickets who have their own set of clients, should be utilised as well as the employees of An Post. They should try to minimise as much as possible so that it will not be jobs for the boys. I would like to see either at executive level of the company or on the board itself some semblance of the international experience that exists in relation to draws. The Minister outlined in his Second Stage speech that in the United States, Australia, Sweden, across Europe and also in South American countries there is a vast experience of draws and lotteries. It is very important that we try to tap some of that expertise and involve it in the administration of our national lottery.

Fraud can be a problem. It only takes one major fraud for this national lottery to be a disaster for all time. It is very important that people have confidence in the scrutineer provided for under the legislation. I suggest that this person should be somebody such as the Garda Commissioner, the Ombudsman or somebody of independent rank. It is important that the current situation in relation to lotteries be clarified. Over a year ago there was a total limbo in relation to the law. A very famous punter who owned an estate put it up for sale by way of lottery. The tickets were £200 or £400 each. A famous commentator took part in the draw. Later several people were arrested and others absconded. It seemed crazy that the lottery could be held in the first place if it was illegal. There is a loophole that if a small element of the proceeds goes towards some GAA club it becomes legal. That whole position needs to be cleared up. In County Wexford where there is a severe problem with agricultural debts many farmers who had to sell out gave grave consideration to a national lottery in order to raise money for their farms.

It is important that the national lottery is operated in the same way as the petrol coupons where one has to get three Xs in a line on a card. It is important that people have an instant result. As a person who bought sweepstake tickets, I did not find it very exciting. People knew that the draw was to take place in a week's time but invariably the closing date was extended. When the draw came up one did not know whether or not one had won. It was never clearly publicised especially if a person drew a non-runner or a horse that was not going to run in the race. It did not make dramatic news and therefore you had to work on the assumption that you had lost. I hope this lottery, especially in its initial stages, will be simple and that people will know instantly whether they have won or lost.

There are certain quiz programmes on television which are in limbo at present. Gay Byrne, Mike Murphy and Derek Davis are regularly whining, with some justification, about losing their draws on RTE. It seems that the Gaming and Lotteries Act is unworkable or is unclear in its operation. It seems foolish in a time of high crime to have the gardaí overly involved in this area. Once the lottery gets going perhaps a number could be drawn every Sunday evening before the 9 o'clock News so that people would know exactly where they stood and would not be in doubt as to whether they had won or lost.

I hope the lottery will have a good regional spread. I hope the people adopt the national lottery. I wish it well. I hope this House of the Oireachtas retains its right to vet the lottery. Often when new State organisations and semi-State bodies are set up they grow beyond their particular stature and become a monster which it is hard for this House to control. We set up committees of public accounts and on public expenditure but they never seem to grapple with the problems. I hope this structure will always be small and flexible enough to be answerable to this House. I hope the two year trial period will be fully exercised so that, after two years, if other people can come up with a better idea for a lottery than An Post, they will be given consideration. I wish the lottery success. I hope the Minister when replying can give a commitment that the proceeds will be divided equally between sporting organisations, for capital expenditure, for youth organisations, for the arts and for voluntary bodies and charities who will have losses because of the effect this lottery will have on their existing draws.

Many Deputies referred to the effect this lottery will have on charitable organisations and voluntary bodies. I share those concerns. There is a lot of fund-raising on behalf of schools especially in rural areas. Parts of the proceeds of the lottery should go towards national, vocational and secondary schools. Great difficulties are incurred in running schools, particularly high insurance costs, cleaning and maintenance of schools. One of the major concerns of the boards of management in these schools is the effect the national lottery will have on them. They are busily engaged in organising their own lotteries and sponsored walks. This is one area that has not been highlighted in this debate. I am sure every Member of this House is subscribing to some draw for the renovation of schools, the building of new schools and extensions to secondary and vocational schools.

The Minister referred to charitable and voluntary bodies but did not refer to the type of fund-raising that is so badly needed in our schools at present. The Minister's Bill is very vague in most areas, particularly as regards who will benefit from the proposed lottery. The Minister stated that it is possible to specify such purposes in the Bill but the Government consider that this approach lacks flexibility. For example, the provision of national lottery resources to some areas not included in the list mentioned would have to await amending legislation. He referred to the benefits that will accrue to sport and recreation, the Irish language, the arts and health care. It was very disappointing that there was no reference to the fact that a subsidiary of An Post will be conducting the draw. The Minister was vague and I hope that when replying he will answer the many questions put to him from all sides.

One of the purposes behind the national lottery as outlined by Deputy Creed and his predecessor was that it would benefit sports and recreation. In that case, many communities in rural Ireland would make applications for facilities. It saddens us that such facilities are not available and, as the Minister of State knows, the use of schools is restricted. We should like to see sporting organisations meeting in assembly halls and recreation centres, but that has not been possible in many cases. The only hope of a capital grant towards the provision of such centres has been through the local authorities. Galway County Council have increased their allocations but they still fall far short of what should be given to local organisations. We should like to see all rural areas helped in this way.

We will all have noticed that much of the legislation we have discussed in recent months dealt with Dublin in particular. It is no wonder that people like the Minister of State and I regard much of that legislation as Dublin oriented. We have had provision for urban renewal, the beautifying of the streets of Dublin and improvements to the Phoenix Park. It is time we had legislation to help rural communities who have been forgotten about. This Bill has good intentions in regard to sport, our national culture and health care, according to the Minister's opening speech. That being so, we may be told that the Western Health Board, representing three counties, could make up their short-fall of £4 million from the national lottery. If that were so we would be moving away from a gamble to taxation and I do not know anybody who would agree with such a departure. The health boards have to consider providing for hip operations, dental treatment, eye testing, etc., and it will not be acceptable if they are told they will be funded in future out of this lottery. That would be funding from the Exchequer and the Department of Health and it would be nothing short of a new form of taxation. I hope we will get clarification on that.

In the past, voluntary organisations, the GAA and management of school boards have had a great commitment in this field. The problems for the GAA have been accentuated by the very high insurance premiums they have to pay for cover for players of different ages, and they will now be hit again because of the DIRT as well as this Bill. There was no indication in the Minister's opening speech as to how such organisations will be helped, if they will be helped at all, from the proceeds of the lottery.

A subsidiary of An Post, apparently, will be running the draw. I take it that all post offices and sub-post offices will sell tickets. Some sub-post offices think they will not be allowed to do this. If tickets will be available only in post offices they will provide a very limited outlet. As in the days of the Irish Hospitals Sweepstakes, tickets should be available in most retail outlets. A case has been made that those who lost their jobs in the Irish Hospitals Sweepstakes should be employed in any lottery which will be operated. I hope the Minister will look at that.

A question arises on the role of An Post in the issuing of television licences. If a subsidiary of An Post are to deal with the national lottery, RTE will make the case, as they have done on many occasions, that they should deal with the issuing and checking of television licences. I ask the Minister to give us some information on that. The Government's commitment to sport is open to question. We have seen over the past number of years many organisations who have raised funds in all kinds of ways. One community in Gort, County Galway, set off to walk all the way to Dublin. They were luckier than most. They did get some assistance. The Minister of State knows that in our own constituency of East Galway in places such as Kiltormer, Monivea and Clonberne——

I am talking about those places where they are looking for assistance. The list goes on. Some of those areas are looking for grant assistance. If money was provided for sport and recreation, those areas would expect to receive assistance. Deputy Leyden spoke earlier about places in north Galway, the part of Galway in the Roscommon constituency. We hope that money can be provided for the people in those areas. When we were discussing the Funds of Suitors Bill recently the money provided on that occasion for sport and recreation was very disappointing. An organisation very involved in arts and culture, namely, Comhaltas Ceoltóirí Éireann, were very disappointed with the allocation they received under that Bill. Despite our best efforts to get the Minister to double the amount of money for Comhaltas Ceoltóirí Éireann we did not succeed.

That is the reason I say that in the areas of national culture, sport and recreation, the response has been very disappointing. I should make a parallel point that at least when the Funds of Suitors Bill was published there were very specific allocations decided on for the King's Inns, for the arts and for sport. Unfortunately, in this Bill we have only vague good intentions about what may be in the Bill and what will be published and listed in Iris Oifigiúil. The Government used the excuse that they want flexibility. That is why we do not get any specific undertaking as to where the moneys and benefit will go.

The point has been made on many occasions by Comhaltas Ceoltóirí Éireann that they received less money than other areas of the arts such as ballet. For that reason, they have raised many questions on the Bill. Deputy Lyons referred to some of the problems encountered with organisations who do not give details of where all the money which they collect goes. He did not go so far as to say that they are bogus organisations, but that accountability is not there. I have no information on that type of operation but I notice, as I am sure other Deputies notice, that most charitable organisations are now engaging in house to house selling of tickets and sponsorship for their fund raising.

It shows how desperate an organisation are when it is not just a question of a church gate collection or tickets being left in a shop, supermarket or post office, but a question of being engaged in house to house selling of tickets or lines. I imagine that An Post or a subsidiary will have to engage in the same type of salesmanship. I said at the outset that charitable organisations and voluntary bodies are in financial difficulties. This has been stated over and over again, in particular by St. Vincent de Paul. They have to work harder than they did in the past to get funds. Some people suggested the success of Band Aid last year affected the contributions to voluntary bodies and charitable organisations, particularly before Christmas. That may be so. They have to engage in house to house collections in order to get their funds together.

I would like to refer to the section of the Bill which deals with the prize fund. We are told that not less than 40 per cent of the lottery fund will be made available in prizes. Most Deputies who have spoken referred to this figure as being very low. If only 40 per cent is being made available in prizes, it indicates that a very large amount of money will be taken up in administration. I hope that if this Bill goes through, the Minister will look again at the possibility of increasing the amount of money for prizes. Surely, 60 per cent will not be spent on administration. I do not think there is any need for a large head office to administer the lottery. I hope we do not have the same story in this lottery as we have with other State bodies whereby, as soon as they are set up, they have their head offices in Dublin. There is no need for the head office to be in Dublin on this occasion.

Debate adjourned.
Sitting suspended at 6 p.m. and resumed at 7 p.m.
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