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Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 28 Apr 1987

Vol. 372 No. 1

National Monuments (Amendment) Bill, 1986 [Seanad]: Second Stage.

I move: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

In introducing the National Monuments (Amendment) Bill, 1986, to this House I am conscious that I am not the first to attempt to update the existing national monuments legislation. Previous Fianna Fáil administrations had decided that a comprehensive Bill to replace the existing Acts of 1930 and 1954 was needed and such a Bill was, in fact, prepared. It was blocked, however, by a challenge to the constitutionality of the existing legislation. While this challenge failed, another case has arisen which again inhibits the introduction of a comprehensive Bill.

In view of the growing concern over the future of our architectural and archaeological heritage and the pressing need for measures to deal with underwater archaeology, the use of metal detectors and inadequate fines for offences under the National Monuments Acts, the Government have decided that this interim measure which is uncontroversial in the main should be proceeded with as quickly as possible. Since both sides of the House have had a hand in it, I trust that we can deal with it expeditiously. It has been thoroughly discussed and greatly improved during its passage through the Seanad, and I sincerely commend the former Members of Seanad Éireann for the diligent approach which they adopted to this Bill. I compliment my immediate predecessor, Deputy Avril Doyle, for her positive responses to the many excellent suggestions made in the Seanad. I want to take this opportunity to congratulate Deputy Doyle on her appointment to her party's front bench as spokesperson on the Marine. I also congratulate Deputy Enright on his position as Opposition spokesman in this area.

The provision for the care of monuments by the State commenced in 1869 with the passing of the Irish Church Act. However, it should be recorded that the Kilkenny Archaeological Society, a body which has evolved into the Royal Society of Antiquaries, carried out work before this with very limited resources. For instance, work was done in 1857, on which £180 was spent at Jerpoint Abbey, and the east window of the Franciscan Friary, Kilkenny, was opened up under the direction of Thomas Drew who gave his services free. Much other good work was done by this society who were the forerunners of the national monuments branch of the Board of Works.

The primary objective of the Irish Church Act of 1869 was to disestablish the Church of Ireland. Churches still in use, as well as the graveyards adjoining them, were vested in the representative body of the Church of Ireland. Other graveyards were in most cases handed over to burial boards whose powers were subsequently taken over by the county councils. It was as a result of this transfer to county councils that the Sligo County Council could claim ownership of the early Christian grave slabs which were stolen last year from the Carrowntemple graveyard. These were, fortunately, recovered and a successful prosecution brought against the person found in possession of them. Unfortunately, one of the slabs was damaged and the fine imposed was limited to £50. This emphasises the need to increase the fines for damage to our monuments to the realistic amounts provided in this Bill.

To go back to the history, after the transfer of churches in use to the representative Church body and of graveyards to burial boards, there remained a residue of unused ecclesiastical structures which it was felt were too interesting to be neglected. The category of national monuments was devised to provide for these and the Commissioners of Public Works were given the job of looking after them, for which a lump sum of £50,000 was set aside out of funds in the hands of the Church Temporalities Commissioners.

The transfer to the Commissioners of Public Works of these ecclesiastical buildings was subject to a ban on their use as places of worship. This ban on the use of monuments for religious purposes has remained to this day subject to some exceptions where there has been a tradition of such ceremonies like the annual pattern day at Clonmacnois.

The Ancient Monuments Protection Act was passed in 1882 and this added a fresh batch of monuments to the care of the commissioners. This specified, in a schedule, a number of monuments which were not ecclesiastical, the owners of which could if they so wished appoint the board as owners or guardians. The Act was purely permissive and relied on the good intentions of landowners with what now seems childlike simplicity. The distinction between ownership and guardianship continues to this day and I understand that about one-third of the monuments in the care of the commissioners are not owned by the State but have been placed by their owners in the guardianship of the commissioners.

The scheduling of a monument under this Act allowed the board to proceed against anybody except the owner in the event of it being damaged or destroyed, completely ignoring the fact that the owner is the likely person to do damage in the course of developing his property. A classic instance occurred in the early 1900s when the owner of the Hill of Tara was persuaded to allow a band of British Israelites to dig up a large part of the Rath of the Synods in the belief that they would find the Ark of the Covenant buried there and there was nothing the commissioners could do to stop them.

Between 1882 and 1930 there were two categories of monuments — national monuments under the 1869 Act and ancient monuments under the 1882 Act. The funds for ancient monuments were voted by Parliament, while national monuments continued to be maintained out of the lump sum of £50,000 referred to provided by the Church Temporalities Commissioners.

The National Monuments Act of 1930, which is still the principal statute governing the care of monuments in Ireland, abolished the rather meaningless distinction between ancient monuments and national monuments. All were henceforth to be called national monuments and to be maintained out of the annual Vote by Parliament.

A monument was defined as:

any artificial or partly artificial building, structure, or erection whether above or below the surface of the ground and any cave, stone, or other natural product whether forming part of, or attached to, or not attached to the ground, which has been artificially carved, sculptured or worked upon or which (where it does not form part of the ground) appears to have been purposely put or arranged in position and any prehistoric or ancient tomb, grave or burial deposit, but does not include any building which is for the time being habitually used for ecclesiastical purposes.

This is a long and cumbersome definition but it has served the test of time fairly well and the only substantial amendment now considered necessary is to expand it to include groups of buildings or structures. The new definition is in section 11 of the Bill. It will be seen that the definition has no restriction with regard to age so that a monument can be as recent as yesterday.

Having defined a "monument", the 1930 Act went on to define a national monument as:

a monument or the remains of a monument, the preservation of which is a matter of national importance by reason of the historical, architectural, traditional, artistic or archaeological interest attaching thereto.

It will be seen that a national monument is, therefore a matter of definition. Only a fraction of national monuments are in State care. This tends to cause confusion in the public mind. People often ask the commissioners to declare something to be a national monument but there is no provision for such declaration in the Act. In the final analysis it is a matter for the courts to decide whether a monument is a national monument but, thankfully, they have not been called upon to do so very often.

An important new provision in the 1930 Act provided for the Minister for Finance to make a preservation order where in his opinion a national monument is in danger of being or actually is being destroyed, injured or removed, or is falling into decay through neglect. The 1954 Act delegated this power to the commissioners. To date, some 370 such orders have been made. One of them was challenged in the Supreme Court but it was decided that the order was valid.

A preservation order does not permit the commissioners to do works to the monument in question but if they feel that works are necessary they may become guardians of the monument. This allows them to spend public money on conservation works without interfering with the ownership of the property.

The National Monuments Act of 1954 provided the commissioners with a new power to list monuments. The effect of listing is to compel the owner to give two months' notice to the board if he intends to demolish, remove or alter the monument. The idea is that the commissioners have two months to consider whether a preservation order should be placed on the monument or to allow some interference with the monument.

The problem with listing is that if the ownership changes, the vendor has no obligation to inform the purchaser of the existence of the listed monument on the lands, nor is he bound to inform the commissioners of the change of ownership. The Bill before us now rectifies this position by ensuring that a Register of Monuments will be established and that once a monument is entered in the register, it can be registered also on the Land Registry Folio. In that way the purchaser's attention will be drawn to the existence of the monument before he completes the deal and the purchase.

This Bill also includes a new category of monument entitled historic monument. This is defined as "a prehistoric monument and any monument associated with the commercial, cultural, economic, industrial, military, religious or social history of the place where it is situated or of the country and also includes all monuments in existence before 1700 AD or such later date as the Minister may appoint by regulation".

In effect, therefore any monument which existed before 1700 is eligible for inclusion in the register. Once it is entered in the register it will be an offence for anyone to interfere with it without giving two months notice of his intention and it will also be an offence to be in possession of a metal detector at the monument.

I believe that this Bill is an important addition to the corpus of legislation for the protection of our heritage and, indeed, it will be seen that it is of great urgency. Indeed, it could be said that the Bill is long overdue. The Commissioners of Public Works have been doing their best with the legislation that is available to them, but the existing laws are completely outdated. In particular, the fines which may be imposed under the present legislation are completely unrealistic in present day terms. We have read in the papers in the recent past about damage to the Goban Saor's grave at Derrynaflan, County Tipperary and to an Iron Age site at Kilcullen. The fines in the present legislation are no deterrent to such acts of vandalism.

Although this Bill could be described as an interim measure, it is a very important interim measure. It deals with the use or misuse of metal detectors for searching for archaeological objects in an uncompromising manner. It deals with historic wrecks and, indeed, all archaeological remains found underwater. It reconstitutes the National Monuments Council on a stronger academic base under the title of the Historic Monuments Council. It sets up a Register of Historic Monuments with the provision for historic monuments to be registered as burdens on property. It provides stiff penalties for offences in these areas.

The Bill's interim nature may have advantages. We are dealing with problems and issues which are relatively new and still evolving. When we face the problem of the damage being done to archaeological sites by treasure hunters, we have to try to decide how far we are to go. Do we try to control the use of all metal detectors and thus also involve ourselves with the legitimate use of metal detectors for tracing pipes and cables?

Study of the Bill clearly shows that the emphasis is on the safeguarding of sites of archaeological importance. We will have to see how that works out in practice. In facing up to the protection of our historic wrecks, we have to provide a framework within which underwater archaeology can develop. We have to knit together conservation requirements and salvage procedures. Both may be under strain in this marriage. Nevertheless, I think that the provision of this Bill will provide a satisfactory code for those involved in this new area.

The Historic Monuments Council, when appointed, will bring together a wide range of expertise which will add greatly to their influence. The unity, in diversity, of our culture is stressed in having a representative of Queen's University, Belfast, among the academics in the council. The Maritime Institute of Ireland will also have a nominee on the council to mark the growing interest in maritime archaeology of which the new body will have to take cognisance. The staggering of the term of appointment of the first nominees will ensure that the council will never again go out of existence due to the simultaneous lapsing of everybody's term of office as happened in 1980.

Areas of archaeological importance in urban and rural contexts can be entered in the register. When an area has been so entered, anybody proposing to carry out development work in the area would have to notify the commissioners. This is a whole new concept for heritage conservation in this country, but a necessary one if we are to respond appropriately to advances made in archaeological research into patterns of urban and rural settlement.

The Commissioners of Public Works are availing of the Bill to take powers to acquire land in the vicinity of national monuments required for the provision of visitor facilities. This is a good omen for it shows that the increased interest of recent years in our monuments has not waned and that a programme of developing visitor facilities has to be pursued. Provision is made for the commissioners and local authorities to make by-laws in respect of any national monument in their care. By-laws are becoming increasingly necessary at the more popular monuments in order to maintain proper supervision.

On the opening day of the new Dáil, the Taoiseach indicated that tourism is one of the areas requiring specific and more concentrated governmental attention. Our monuments are an essential element in the tourism package and if more of them are developed to cater for visitors, then more visitors will come. The work that has been done in the past decade has produced a steady increase in visitor numbers. We must, therefore, facilitate this process by granting the Commissioners of Public Works the powers which they need in order to acquire land for such purposes and to accommodate visitors.

The commissioners, in arranging for the survey of monuments, frequently engage the services of university or other qualified personnel. Heretofore, those persons had to depend on the goodwill of landowners to be able to inspect monuments. Henceforth they will have a right of entry when authorised by the commissioners to carry out such inspection. I am happy to mention that the survey of my own county, Galway, is being carried out by personnel from University College Galway and that the Sites and Monuments Record for the county is due to be produced later this year.

Provision is made for the charging of fees for licences to excavate for archaeological purposes, to use metal detectors for such purposes, to dive on, survey or remove objects from a historic wreck or underwater archaeological site. Fines for offences under the existing legislation are increased to realistic levels and fines are prescribed for offences under this Bill. During the passage of the Bill through the Seanad, the upper limit of fines for more serious offences was raised to £50,000. Orders, regulations and by-laws under this Act will be laid before each House of the Oireachtas.

The National Monuments Advisory Council which were reconvened in November 1986, have examined the Bill and suggested a number of amendments which were incorporated in the Bill as passed by the Seanad. The council recently expressed their concern at reports of the accelerated pace of plundering of archaeological sites and in particular they referred to the penalties in the present legislation which they state are no deterrent to would-be plunderers. They urge that the Amendment Bill should be enacted with all possible speed. I share the council's anxiety and as the Bill has been thoroughly examined in the Seanad I look forward to the further contributions of Members of this House, and the passage of this Bill through the Dáil, quam celerimme.

I commend the Bill to the House.

I congratulate the Minister of State, Deputy Treacy, on his appointment and for his kind remarks about me. I hope that his stay at the Office of Public Works will be as enjoyable and interesting as my short one was. I say, with slight tongue in cheek, that perhaps his will be longer but I am quite sure that it will be interesting, irrespective of the length.

I am reasonably familiar with the Bill having had the privilege of steering it through the Seanad during the last session. I, like the Minister should like to record my thanks to all the Senators who had such a constructive commitment to the Bill and many of whose amendments I was able to take on board. If you cast your eye over the Seanad records of the time, you will see that it was agreed by all that it was most useful legislation. Any area in which we experienced difficulty we managed to tease out and resolve to the satisfaction of all parties and interests involved.

I, like the Minister, hope that the passage of the Bill through this House will be just as speedy and efficient and I hope we will reach a conclusion with a Bill which will do the job it was intended to do, as we have all been waiting a long time for it.

Everyone in the House is aware of the importance of our architectural and archaeological heritage and of the need for identifying, protecting and preserving it. To protect and preserve our heritage, we must first identify it. There are several aspects about identification which I should like to mention. There is a clear need for a new and consistent system of classification of buildings or structures and this should be done by a central agency. The job could perhaps be undertaken by the Department of the Environment, possibly through the agency of An Foras Forbartha, or with a new unit within the Department. The alternative would be to have it done by the Office of Public Works and this is the course I would support.

The Office of Public Works already have an established survey unit dealing with national monuments. They have developed effective policies and methodologies using the latest computerised equipment and systems and have established an enviable publication record in recent years. While the survey unit has by tradition concentrated in the main on identifying and recording our archaeological heritage up to the year 1700, the scope of their work could be broadened and extended to cover the architectural heritage which is largely concentrated in the 18th, 19th and 20th centuries.

A small start has already been made with the commencement late last year of a pilot survey of vernacular buildings in County Dublin. The Office of Public Works already have responsibility for assessing buildings of significant interest under section 19 of the Finance Act, 1982, which allows a tax exemption in respect of all expenditure on the maintenance of such buildings. These buildings are also exempt from residential property tax. The very fact that the Office of Public Works have this role is an important part of identification of such buildings.

Operating through the Office of Public Works would also facilitate the involvement of the National Monuments Advisory Council — hopefully, shortly to become the Historic Monuments Council with the passing of this legislation — in advising on criteria for the classification of historic buildings and so they would avoid the necessity to establish a separate Historic Buildings Council as has been suggested by some commentators. The new council, the NMAC, who were re-established last year include many eminent members in the relevant fields. I hope this council will be invited to advise the commissioners on setting suitable criteria for a classification or grading system for historic buildings as a working basis for the Office of Public Works survey unit is carrying out surveys and recording the results.

The survey work could be undertaken partly by the OPW's own in-house staff and partly by contracting the work out as they do at present with the archaeological surveys throughout the country. I would like to see the Architectural Archive play an important role in any such contract work. Perhaps, the Minister could explore with the commissioners the feasibility of redeploying some of their architectural staff from other areas, and if the Minister checks his numbers he will see he has a large architectural staff, to undertake the in-house work and set standards for and monitor the work of the outside contractors.

I would like the Minister's approval to adopting the foregoing course in relation to identifying our heritage so that steps can be taken to implement policy as quickly as possible in this area. Basically, until we identify our heritage, both archaeological and architectural, there is little we can do to protect or preserve it if we do not know what or where it is. The second major task is that once identified we must see what our policies are in relation to the protection of our heritage.

I would like to quote from the document "Manifesto for the City", published in January 1987, of the Dublin Crisis Conference. I am sure the Minister is familiar with this document. On page 8 it states:

In European Architectural Heritage Year (1975), the Government signed the Declaration of Amsterdam guaranteeing full support for the preservation of Ireland's archictectural heritage as part of the common heritage of Europe. Ten years later, Dr. Maurice Craig, the distinguished architectural historian — who is a very eminent member of the NMAC — could say that our legislation and funding provision in this area "is so farcically inadequate as to be virtually non-existent. In this respect, we are at the bottom of the European league". Indeed, according to An Taisce estimates, of the mainly Georgian buildings listed for preservation in the 1980 City Development Plan, at least 50 have been subjected to material alteration over the past five or six years. And of those scheduled for protection, up to 80 have already been demolished or planning permission has been granted for demolition.

One major problem is that there is, in fact, no statutory basis under the Planning Acts for the listing of buildings; indeed, the procedure is entirely ad hoc because it is not mentioned anywhere in the legislation. The 1963 Planning Act is remarkably silent on architectural conservation. It lays down no nationally-consistent system for listing buildings, nor is it mandatory on the planning authorities to draw up any lists and there is also no provision for the designation of conservation areas, where special controls might apply. Thus, the first priority must be to give listed buildings and conservation areas proper status in law.

I fully endorse those sentiments as I feel the Minister also does. Basically, what that document says is that under our Planning Acts there are many and multiple provisions whereby local authorities may, that is the word used in the development plans and Planning Acts generally, do this, that or the other. Bluntly we are asking the Minister to remove the word "may" or more correctly to get his colleague in the Department of the Environment to remove the word "may" where it appears in this legislation and replace it by the word "must". If we make it mandatory on local authorities to list according to certain classifications, we must identify for them what those classification and grading systems are. That would be the job of the OPW.

I recommend that we use the National Monuments Acts and the Planning Acts in a complementary strategy to achieve our objectives. I suggest that historic buildings be classified by the commissioners in two or more grades according to their importance and that the highest grade could be listed by the commissioners under the present national monuments legislation and later registered in the Register of Historic Monuments under this legislation before us today. Anyone wishing to interfere with, to alter or demolish a listed or registered monument would be required to give at least two months notice to the commissioners who would then be in a position to give further protection to the monument if they saw fit by way of a preservation order, guardianship order, or by compulsory acquisition or, alternatively, to grant permission subject to such conditions as they thought proper for the alteration or even demolition of the building in certain circumstances. Where a monument is protected by a preservation order, the commissioners are obliged to consult the National Monument Advisory Council before giving consent to its demolition or removal so that there would be further scope for the council's overseeing role in such circumstances.

The other grades of buildings could be left to the Department of the Environment and local authorities to deal with. The Department of the Environment might deem it prudent to retain some controlling function over the second highest grade, leaving it to the local authorities to decide about a third grade in the light of local circumstances and local planning needs. In any event, planning authorities are required to consult with the National Monuments Advisory Council as a prescribed body in relation to planning applications, so there would be an additional safeguard in this context if this requirement were more strictly enforced in relation to all buildings or sites.

This would still leave unresolved the unsatisfactory provisions for listing historic buildings under the Planning Acts. This, again, is a matter to which many environmental commentators have alluded. I see no alternative to amending the Planning Acts in an appropriate manner, perhaps making it mandatory on planning authorities to list all buildings recommended by the Commissioners of Public Works, on a continuous basis as OPW lists would become available, and not just in the context of their development plan which has clearly proved to be an unsatisfactory method of meeting the position. This area will require more detailed examination and further consideration way beyond the scope of the present Bill.

The Dublin Crisis Conference referred to the necessity for conservation areas and that they should have a proper status in law. To some extent in section 11 this Bill deals with this. I will refer to it later. Indeed, the Minister already alluded to it in relation to the amendment to the definition of a monument. I must say I am particularly proud of the Government amendment during the passage of this Bill through the Seanad which was responsible for amending the definition of a monument, basically from the singular to the plural to put it in its simplest terms. This could have far-reaching effects and could be an extremely useful tool when some of our heritage is threatened. I will come back to that shortly.

Basically, there are four categories under which we can protect our archaeological and architectural heritage. The first is listing. This is the lowest and most common level of protection at present. Monuments on the order of the Commissioners of Public Works are listed in Iris Oifigiúil. Owners must give the commissioners two months notice of any proposed works affecting a monument. Within this period the commissioners must decide if the proposed work may proceed and subject to what, if any, conditions. If a satisfactory solution is not reached the commissioners may resort to further levels of protection available. At present, there are 1,653 monuments listed in the country.

The second level of protection is a preservation order. Here, the Commissioners of Public Works may make an order in respect of any monument of national importance which is threatened with injury or destruction, or which is falling into decay through neglect. They may make a permanent order or in the case of a sudden threat where the object is to halt work pending investigation, they may make a temporary preservation order valid for six months. Both types of order may be revoked at any time. In fact, this does not happen in practice. There are about 400 national monuments currently protected by preservation orders.

The third level of protection is guardianship. Owners may place monuments in the guardianship of the Commissioners of Public Works or of a local authority. They retain their ownership but the commissioners or the local authority become responsible for the maintenance of the monument and the admission of the public. However, in handing over guardianship an owner may, if the public authority concerned agree, retain some control over the admission of the public. Where a preservation order is in force the commissioners may, by order, appoint themselves guardian of the monument and, indeed, undertake its maintenance, although with dwindling resources over recent years that becomes less of an option as time goes by. There are over 250 monuments in the guardianship of the Commissioners of Public Works at the moment.

The fourth and most effective method of protection is that of public ownership of our heritage. Local authorities may own national monuments, in which case they are required to maintain them and open them to the public. The Commissioners of Public Works may acquire, by agreement or compulsorily, any national monument, including the means of access to it. There are almost 500 monuments in the ownership of the Commissioners of Public Works.

With regard to listed monuments, many of these are on lands which have changed hands since listing was first introduced. There has been a tendency for new owners or those inheriting the lands on which these monuments stand to injure or remove them in the course of land clearance operations. It has become necessary to deal with this problem all the more because it is through the listing process that the monuments identified by the archaeological survey are, in fact, to be protected. The Register of Historic Monuments should become the central record of all protected monuments. Additionally, there may be entered in this register areas which are designated as archaeological areas and which will enjoy the same level of protection as listed monuments under the Bill before us today. Every entry in the register will be registered in due course as a burden on registered land. This will mean that in all transactions affecting land, inheritance or sales, the existence of a protected monument will come to the notice of the new owners who then will not be able to claim ignorance of their existence.

Preservation orders, both temporary and permanent, have generally worked well. It is noted that no compensation is payable on the making of a preservation order. This has been challenged up to Supreme Court level, but the courts have held that a preservation order is in accordance with the Constitution of Ireland which provides that the existence of property rights may be limited by law to the extent required by the common good, a most important ruling.

Guardianship has worked well in the past. Nowadays, however, the proper presentation of monuments to the public generally requires extensive work and facilities and the public authorities are less willing to put their money into a monument which still remains in private hands. Compulsory purchase remains an option, of course, and was used in the case of the Hill of Tara. However, it is seldom resorted to. The existence of the power of compulsory purchase is often sufficient to resolve any acquisition difficulties. The acquisition by public ownership of national monuments to the extent that budgetary conditions alone remains the most satisfactory solution in the case of monuments of outstanding national and, indeed, international importance. Even during the present recession we have pursued this objective. Negotiations have recently been completed for the purchase of Rathfarnham Castle on the outskirts of Dublin and of the core area in the megalithic cemetery of Cairnmore in County Sligo. Indeed, the purchase of both of those most important monuments was one of the highlights of my year in the Minister's position of the Office of Public Works.

There are two major deficiencies in our present legislation, inability to deal with damage being done to our archaeological sites by users of metal detectors and the lack of specific provisions for underwater archaeology. The legislation before us today on Second Stage will deal with these problems. Under the Bill, it will be an offence to be in possession of a metal detector at the site of a registered monument without having a licence. It will also be an offence to be in possession of one anywhere else without a licence where the purpose of having it there is to search for archaeological objects. The first case is clear; the second may not appear to be so clear. The Bill, however, allows the legal presumption, in the case of the prosecution of an offence involving use of a metal detector, that the device was being used for the purpose of searching for archaeological objects. This, together with the very stiff fines, will greatly strengthen our hands generally in dealing with this problem.

The Bill generally is a very fine response to the problems which have been hitting the headlines recently. Let me mention just some of these; the finding of the Derrynaflan Chalice by means of a metal detector; the discovery of the Armada wrecks off Stredagh, County Sligo; the illicit removal of valuable stone carvings from Clonmacnoise, Carrowntemple and other sites; the damaging of Bronze Age burials at Kilgowan, County Kildare in the course of gravel extraction; the discovery of Lord Cloncurry's treasure ship, The Aide, off the Wicklow coast; the finding of the eighth century reliquary in the lake near Granard in County Longford and again very recently, the disturbance by a contractor working for the Department of Forestry near Tallaght of a stone circle around a burial cairn. The list could go on, but I mention just a few.

When we realise that it is over 50 years since the principal Act came into force and more than 30 years since an amending Act was passed, it is fair to question whether the legislation is now grossly out of date or whether it was so good that it stood the test of time. The answer perhaps is somewhere between the two. I hope that this legislation will be as effective for as many years to come. On two previous occasions Bills of similar content were introduced into Dáil Éireann, the first by Deputy John Bruton in 1978 and then another by Deputy Donnellan in 1980. Regrettably, as the Minister has alluded to himself, both attempts were resisted on the grounds that comprehensive legislation was in preparation. It would have been better to have allowed the proposals to go through. That would have spared the nation some of the heartaches of the past eight years. In any case the comprehensive legislation proved illusory, as important issues concerning the constitutional rights to private property and other matters were coming up before the courts. Some were resolved; others remain to be resolved. I mentioned that the Supreme Court has recently ruled that preservation orders are in accordance with our Constitution and that they provide the limiting of private rights by law to the extent required by the common good. It is not possible today and will not be for quite some time to have a definitive answer which will allow comprehensive legislation to be drafted.

The Bill we are now discussing does two major things; it updates existing legislation and breaks new ground. One important area dealt with under section 17 requires updating in the level of fines which can be imposed. Under the present Acts the maximum fine that can be imposed is £50. Such an amount is derisory by present day money values. There is, of course, an imprisonment of up to six months which might accompany or substitute for the fine. The fine still has a deterrent effect. Under the new Bill the level of fines will go up to £5,000 for the more serious offences. The level of fines and penalties is, in the end, a test of our seriousness. We do not wish to err by excess in this area, but we must show that we mean business when it comes to preserving our heritage.

I referred in the Seanad to an incident which I will now recall here because it bluntly demonstrates what I mean when I say that the fines must be evidence of our seriousness. Some months ago a farmer phoned asking what fine he might receive if he destroyed a monument on his land. He was asking, he explained, because if the amount was right he would go ahead and bulldoze, anyway. The reply that by law the maximum fine was only £50 could hardly have had the deterrent effect one would have wished for. From now on, once this Bill is passed, if an archaeological object is found and the finder fails to report it or falsely reports it he or she may be fined £5,000 instead of £10. If he or she excavates in search of archaeological objects without a licence the fine will be £5,000 instead of £25 as heretofore.

In many other ways this Bill places new challenges before us. Heritage preservation has been progressing in a more united fashion. The European countries have been co-ordinating their efforts through the Council of Europe. I have already mentioned that 1975 was European Architectural Heritage Year. This called attention to Europe's rich and varied architecture and the unique character of her historic towns which are so fast disappearing through neglect, demolition and intemperate redevelopment. This year sought to sound the alarm and produce action before it was too late. I hope the success of European Architectural Heritage Year is not to be measured by our progress in this country, although it did generate much interest in Ireland too. Progress has been lamentable. The year culminated in the Congress on the European Architectural Heritage year held in Amsterdam in October 1975. This signalled the formal adoption of policies of integrated conservation. The preservation of heritage was to be built into the planning process. How often have we heard it? Twelve years later we are still talking about it. Local authorities were to be more intimately involved. There should be citizen participation also. We took a lively interest in these proceedings and participated in the subsequent drafting of the Convention for the Protection of the Architectural Heritage of Europe. Again we were good in theory but slow in practical application. This convention was signed by the former Minister of State, Mr. Joe Bermingham, at Granada in October 1985. This Bill will pave the way for bringing it before both Houses of the Oireachtas for ratification.

The reconstitution of the National Monuments Advisory Council on a wider academic basis and under the new title of the Historic Monuments Council is designed to be a major factor in the implementation of integrated conservation policies. It is a body which will have to be consulted in regard to all proposals which affect heritage properties. Integrated conservation will be carried a step further by the declaration under this Bill that all pre-1700 A.D. buildings or sites rank as historic monuments and, ergo, qualify for protection.

This, of course, will not mean that this legislation before us is not also concerned with post-1700 structures. We should be quite clear about this fact as there has been some confusion and concern in many quarters. There is nothing in the Bill which precludes the OPW from taking protective action in regard to any post-1700 building. Indeed, the Minister may, by regulation, advance the date from 1700 whenever he or she may think fit. The Commissioners already have in their care a small number of post-1700 buildings or national monuments and I need hardly mention that the Commissioners also look after a number of post-1700 buildings which are of archaeological or historic importance and which are in use for State purposes.

The introduction of the new concept of an archaeological area is very important. This would cover in a rural area an extensive site such as an ancient field system. In an urban area it would cover any topographically definable area of archaeological importance and, in particular, areas of original or mediaeval settlement.

The Bill before us establishes a register of historic monuments. Entry into this register of a monument or an archaeological area will mean that an owner proposing to do some work to the monument or in its immediate area must give at least two months notice to the Commissioners of Public Works. This will give time for decision on whether the heritage interest in the site should be recorded by an archaeological excavation, if this has not already been done, and the site then either given legal protection, or whether the owner should be allowed to carry on with his work.

Monuments in areas entered into the register will also be registered in the Land Registry as burdens affecting the land. This should mean that anyone buying land would know if it has a protective site or monument thereon. This is a serious attempt to avoid the heartbreak and the problems which can occur where someone buys land for development and finds that his or her plans are halted because a monument or archaeological area of which he or she was not aware is found to exist thereon. It will not be possible to provide for every situation that may arise. No matter how good the survey, something unsuspected may still turn up. Ploughing or land clearance could reveal souterrains used for storage in olden times and as places of refuge in days gone by. Studies of urban buildings may discover features indicating a history going back further than anybody suspected.

I welcome under section 2 the reasonable control of metal detectors. We should all be aware of the damage that is being done to archaeological sites by treasure hunters. Reports have been received from almost every part of the country of sites that have been scarred by their operations. Coins and other objects providing valuable dating evidence have been removed from their context. This represents irretrievable loss and it is generally agreed that something must be done about it. When the Bill was originally published there was an outcry from groups representing the users of metal detectors. It was said that under the Bill no one could use a metal detector, even in their own back garden, without committing an offence. Some archaeologists have said that we are not going far enough and that metal detectors should be banned.

I find the provisions of the Bill adequate and justifiable. Up to now it would have been necessary to catch an offender redhanded in the act of extracting archaeological objects from the ground to be assured of achieving a successful prosecution. Now anybody found to have a metal detector at a protected monument or site will be liable to conviction unless he or she can prove his innocence. At the same time, persons using metal detectors for legitimate purposes such as mineral prospecting and tracing pipes and cables have no need to fear that they will be inconvenienced in any way. However, treasure hunters using metal detectors may no longer bring them on to protected sites on land or under water without a licence; nor may they use them at archaeological sites, even if they are not yet afforded protection under the National Monuments Act. If a person armed with a metal detector is found using it at a known archaeological site it will be presumed under this new law that the device was being used to search for archaeological objects and he or she will be guilty of an offence.

Treasure hunting with metal detectors is not, however, being made totally illegal, provided treasure hunters keep away from known archaeological areas and sites and that they are not specifically searching for archaeological objects. The great problem has been that in the past decade or so one archaeological site after another has been ransacked by the users of metal detectors. Holes have been dug all over certain sites, such as the Hill of Tara, and we have experienced appalling vandalism. Groups representing metal detector users insist that their members observe a very strict code and that a few people have been giving them a very bad name. This is probably true. While it is not the intention of the Bill, however, to outlaw all use of metal detectors as a hobby, treasure hunting, almost invariably involves a breach of common law. There is trespass on private property, interference with such property and, possibly theft of property.

The next major development which the Bill deals with, and which I applaud, is that of underwater archaeology. The growth in the number of amateur diving clubs has inevitably forced the pace in this area, particularly because of the number of historic wrecks that are being discovered. This has underlined a particular problem. On the other hand we have the increasing capacity of sports divers, and others, to discover historic remains preserved underwater whether in lakes, rivers or in the sea. On the other hand we have not enough archaeologists and conservation facilities to deal with this heritage area. I should like to salute the work of the Maritime Institute of Ireland, and of the CFT, the underwater diving council, and the diving clubs in co-operating in the preserving and recording of wrecks and artefacts in situ.

The question of the increased capacity to locate objects of historical interest underwater and the limited academic and conservation resources to deal with the discovered material has attracted the attention of the Council of Europe. The provisions of section 3 are in line generally with the relevant provisions of the draft Convention which has resulted. One of the significant features of the draft European Convention is that it avoids interference with the rights of identifiable owners, the law of salvage and other rules of maritime law as these were considered to be too useful to be set aside. It was felt that that would leave a vacuum filled with new law which would in turn have to be tested in the courts.

Section 3 introduces sufficient controls to ensure that satisfactory recovery and conservation procedures are followed. It is to be assumed that the Commissioners of Public Works would never issue a licence to conduct salvage operations at the site of an historic wreck unless they were satisfied that the operation would be subject to adequate archaeological supervision. However, once such an operation has been authorised, the existing machinery of salvage law and the role of the receiver of wrecks under the Merchant Shipping Act, 1894, would come into operation so that salvage claims and claims to ownership rights could be dealt with.

Discoveries of historic wrecks have provided the motive to bring us to this point in our legislation, from an archaeological point of view, wrecks are but one aspect of the very wide field of underwater archaeology. Crannogs and other early habitation sites have been preserved intact over many centuries by reason of being underwater. The section has been so drafted to allow the protection of such sites.

The Bill provides for the setting up of the Historic Monuments Council which will have a broader academic base than the National Monuments Advisory Council which it replaces. It is hoped that as a result greater attention will be given to the recommendations of the council. As successor to the NMAC it will be a prescribed authority under the planning regulations for the purposes of referral of planning applications which might affect sites of archaeological or historical interest or buildings of artistic, architectural or historical interest. It is because of the heavy academic representation on the new council that there is less room to accommodate representatives of local archaeological societies. I recall the passage of that section in the Seanad when Senators called on me to give representation to 15 or 17 other bodies on that council. Every call had merit. At the time we amended the section to include a nominee of the Minister for the Environment but that was the only representative we felt we could take on board. Many interested groups and organisations would love to be part of the HMAC. In my view the balance in the Bill is about right but that does not mean that at some stage in the future, having learned from experience, we should not decide to alter the provision. However, given our experience to date it is my view that with the eminent people we have on the HMAC they will do the job we will be demanding of them very effectively. There is a point at which a committee becomes ineffective by virtue of its membership. It could become too cumbersome if a big number was involved. The number chosen in the Bill is about right.

Those who did not manage to gain representation on the committee, particularly representatives of local archaeological societies, could, perhaps, find their real place on the Historic Monuments Advisory Committees which local authorities are authorised to establish under section 22 of the Principal Act, as amended by section 14. Very few of the local authorities who have authority to establish such committees have done so. Of those that have been set up the vast majority have not met for more than two years. Those of us who are members of local authorities should re-invigorate those committees or urge county managers and chairmen of county councils to set them up. They would play a very useful role in co-ordinating and feeding through information to the HMC.

There is little point in claiming representation on a national body when little effort is made to sort the problem out locally. A difficulty with the old council was that the term of office of all the members lapsed together so that there was a gap between the lapsing of one council and the appointment of the next. On the last occasion that gap was five years. That problem has now been overcome under an arrangement whereby half of the members' term of office will lapse after three years and half will continue for six years. At no time in the future will the terms of office of all members lapse together.

I welcome the broadening of the definition of a monument from the singular to the plural in section 11 to include groups of buildings. The Minister referred to that amendment this afternoon and described the original definition of a monument as long and cumbersome. He said it had served the test of time fairly well and that the only substantial amendment now considered necessary was to expand it to include groups of buildings or structures. I agree with those sentiments. I hope the usefulness of the amendment will become apparent particularly in regard to our urban heritage and where our streetscapes are threatened.

The purpose of the Bill is to enable appropriate protection to be given to groups of buildings. The Convention for the Protection of the Architectural Heritage of Europe, which was signed by a former Minister, defines the architectural heritage as comprising monuments, groups of buildings and sites. Monuments and sites, that is archaeological sites, are already covered in the Bill and it is only proper that we should also make provision for groups of buildings. The effect of the amendment agreed in the Seanad is that groups of buildings may now be listed under the National Monuments Acts and, if the circumstances warrant, be protected by a preservation order or taken into guardianship by the commissioners or by a local authority.

A preservation order may be made when the commissioners are satisfied that a monument is such that its preservation is a matter of national importance and that it is in danger of being or is actually being destroyed, injured or removed or is falling into decay through neglect. The making of a guardianship order is a further step which the commissioners may take if necessary. I am particularly interested in preserving groups of buildings and streetscapes in our cities and towns. Ones that come to mind immediately are Dublin's Georgian streets and squares and any area of special urban design quality such as Mountjoy Square, Henrietta Street or North Great George's Street. The Bill will add to the armoury of legislation which may be availed of to protect such streetscapes. The provision may also be used for the protection of groups of rural buildings which are of historic or architectural interest. We may interpret this amendment under section 11 to be the concept of conservation areas as part of our legislation at last. I hope we can develop this with the OPW hand in hand with the Department of the Environment and using the Planning Acts to ensure that the threat which now exists to our historic buildings will be removed as speedily as possible. We have taken the first and, in my view, the most important step forward in this area.

In conclusion, it is, as I have said, over ten years since European Architectural Heritage Year. I hope the success of that year is not to be measured by our progress in this country to date. This Bill is in its own way a small but important step in the right direction. It has been said that we have an obsession with the past but that we have not matched this with any commitment to it. We are now into European Year of the Environment. Next year we celebrate Dublin's millennium. The enacting of this Bill together with the Air Pollution Bill and, it is to be hoped, the ratification by both Houses of the Oireachtas of the Convention for the Protection of the Architectural Heritage of Europe are the best way we can show our commitment to our rich heritage in this European Year of the Environment.

I also welcome this Bill and I welcome even more warmly the statement by the Minister that he sees it as a very important interim measure. I take it from that that he sees this as being merely an interim measure and, further, that in so saying he is indicating the intention of the Government to introduce more comprehensive legislation as a matter of urgency. If he succeeds in doing that I assure him that he will have the very full support of the Progressive Democrats Party. If he drags his feet he will have the Progressive Democrats Party barking at his heels.

There is no doubt that everything said here this afternoon and everything said during a very interesting debate in the Seanad shows that there is a need for much more comprehensive legislation than what is proposed in the Bill before us this evening. Each speaker lists the amount of very serious damage which has been done to our national heritage in the course of the years and in so doing each speaker is moving a vote of no confidence in the existing legislation. That must ring a bell and tell us that we cannot drag our feet in bringing in a comprehensive and proper Bill to replace the Act of 1930, an Act passed long before the arrival of the JCB and the metal detector, the twin scourges of those who seek to preserve all that is best in our heritage.

However, I would like to compliment the framers of this Bill, the two people who were far seeing enough to bring it before the upper House, Professor Dooge who is no longer in the Seanad, and I regret that, and Senator Ferris who is back in the new Seanad and very welcome indeed. Also I pay particular tribute to Deputy Doyle, the former Minister of State at the Office of Public Works, who dealt with the legislation and in doing so displayed a high degree of skill and courage. She has done great work and she is worthy of the highest praise. I hope for her sake and for the sake of all of us that this Bill will have a speedy passage through the House and that it will be stitched into the existing legislation and implemented and enforced rigidly.

Despite the fact that this is a very small measure it is significant and it represents a sincere attempt to update and upgrade the existing legislation, the Bill of 1930, amended in 1954. Therefore, all of us who are well intentioned seek to give it all the support we can and to see that it moves through this House as rapidly as possible and is put into place and enforced very quickly.

I will refer briefly to the provisions of the Bill. The better things about the Bill are its proposals to come to terms in some way with the users of metal detectors. The damage these people have done in recent years is very well catalogued and very well known now and I am not going to add to our list of shame. We all can quote from personal experience in our areas. As recently as yesterday I was told by somebody from Kinsale, a town very well known for its imaginative and creative conservation programme, that Kinsale UDC recently found themselves in possession of a very ancient Norman castle, the property of the de Courcey family who lived in that region many hundreds of years ago. When they went to examine their bequest they found the place was picked clean, hacked to the bone by people who use metal detectors. Not one artefact was left; nothing was left except the bare stones. Everything that was in that castle had been taken away bit by bit by stealth, and taken out of the area, and heaven knows where it is to be found now. That is a sad and bitter experience and a testimony to how we have failed during many years to protect what we should have valued. When we examine what we are being told about what those metal detector magnates are doing with their finds that is no surprise.

I read in the Evening Echo of Monday 13 April that a Mr. Tom Kelly of the National Museum branch of the Union of Professional and Technical Civil Servants told a meeting in Dublin that treasure hunters could make £250,000 a year from the illegal export trade in Irish artefacts. They can make that kind of money now. We talk about the black economy, but I do not know how we describe that economy. I take it that that is a fact. I doubt that this gentleman would make such a serious statement unless he had solid evidence to back it up. This is the size of the problem facing us and this is the extent to which people who use metal detectors have gone. This is how they turned it into a growth industry. My great fear is that the provisions of this Bill are not strong enough to curb that kind of activity. A fine of £1,000 is proposed for people found in possession of metal detectors in or about certain designated areas clearly indicated in this Bill, but if people can make sums as great as £250,000 annually they are not likely to be inhibited by a fine of £1,000.

Our record of enforcement in this kind of licensed area is very bad. We need only to point to what has happened to our rivers and the depletion of salmon stocks in our rivers despite the fact that we have a licence system. Our record of enforcement of this kind is so poor that I have grave fears for the outcome of this section of the Bill. I fear that the aims and objectives and the good motives of those who framed the Bill, or have brought it so far, will not be met unless we can come up with much more severe measures.

Things have gone so far now that I favour a total ban on metal detectors. The matter is as serious as that. However, provision is not made for that in this Bill and since there is no scope for amendments at this Stage of the Bill, let me say that when and if the Bill becomes law I hope this section will be enforced rigidly and will be applied equally not alone to our native people but to holidaymakers who come here from countries where metal detectors are used freely and who are liable to bring their metal detectors with them.

I hope that once this Bill is enacted we will see to it that its provisions, including the fines for infringements of the Act, will be indicated quite clearly at points of entry so that people entering the country who may be tempted to bring metal detectors with them will know the law of the land and the price they must pay for infringements of the law. I have grave reservations about this section and I will have more to say on it on Committee Stage.

Section 3 of the Bill deals with historic wrecks. This is a timely provision and one of the better sections of the Bill in what it sets out to do. I take issue with the requirement that a wreck must be 100 years old. That is unrealistic. How would a team of divers establish how old a wreck is until they have first carried out excavation work and research. It is impossible to see how that section can be implemented.

I would be happier if the requirements of the Bill could be applied to more recent wrecks. The wreck of the Luisitania for instance must be seen as being of historic value by now and must be seen, in terms of the times we live in, as being of ancient historic value. Things are moving so quickly in this century. We only have to look at the Act about which we are speaking to see how hopelessly out of date it has become in 50 years. That gives some indication as to what 50 years can do to a wreck. The 100 years cut off point is unhelpful and unrealistic and I will put down an amendment on Committee Stage.

Section 4 sets up the National Monuments Council. I take the point made by Deputy Doyle when she said that she had so many submissions from different Senators as to who would best be placed on that council she could not possibly find room for them all. I realise that this is a problem for any Minister setting up any body of that nature. People will always claim that other people would perhaps make a better contribution than those nominated to serve on the council. However, I am a little intrigued about the inclusion of the Minister for Communications. It would be better had the Minister for Agriculture been included bearing in mind that most of our historic monuments are found on farming land. We should have a Minister for Agriculture who would have this on his desk as a priority. The Minister for Agriculture would be a much more useful person on that council than the Minister for Communications. I was not here when this Bill was discussed in the Seanad, and even though I read the debates carefully, I do not know the arguments for the inclusion of the Minister for Communications on this council. I remain to be convinced about that. I am open minded about it, but I would be very happy to have the Minister for Agriculture on that council, and, consequently, on the side of implementing this Bill. There should also be a representative from the National Museum specifically mentioned on that list. If this Bill is to succeed one of our best allies is the National Museum. The National Museum have held the fort in fields of conservation since the foundation of this State and I will not be happy until I see such a representative included on this list. I will be tabling an amendment to that effect on Committee Stage.

Deputy Doyle talked about the wholly academic face of this Bill. I agree with her. I would be happier to see more local involvement although I am not quite sure how that can be achieved without having a committee so large as to be unwieldly. In the meantime I see no merit in preserving these monuments if they are to be just academic acquisitions registered in books held in libraries and museums. These artefacts and monuments should belong to the people at local level. They should be a sense of great local pride and patriotism and should be the centre from which all sorts of local cultural activities should emerge. They should be linked in with local art galleries and museums, becoming part of the local cultural centres. Unless this happens there is no merit in what we are setting out to do and there will not be the public will to give us the kind of money we will need to give teeth to this legislation or future legislation until we can involve local people. I would be happier to see a greater local involvement in the composition of the National Monuments Council. I know that provision is made for local advisory councils. In some counties they work exceptionally well and in others they do not work at all. We have to work towards a more consistent response from local people. Deputy Doyle made the valid point that if people are not interested at national level they are not likely to be interested at local level. In reply to that, people can be made to identify more closely with what is found in their own locality than they can identify with something which is found in a county far away. There must be better ways of involving people. This Bill provides us with an opportunity to reach out to people and give them a consciousness of what they have.

Section 4 (a) says that the chairman of the council shall be appointed from time to time as occasion requires by the Minister from among the members of the council. That is entirely unsatisfactory. On Committee Stage I will be tabling an amendment to provide for a specific time. A chairman appointed from time to time by the Minister could be there for half a generation until all his freshness and innovation is gone and until the challenge has gone out of the work for him. There should be a definite time limit on it.

I am not happy with the recommendation that the chairman is to be appointed by the Minister from among the members. The chairman should be appointed from among the members by the members. We have had experiences of chairpersons who have proved to be failures appointed to certain State boards. If this council is to succeed we do not want a failure or a flop at the head of it. The best judge as to the best chairman will be the people on the council. If the council are to discern what is best in how to conserve, preserve and promote national monuments, they will be equally able to discern who would make the best chairman. I would be much happier if that section were changed to meet that requirement.

Section 4 aims to set up the register. That needs to be done in a comprehensive way on a national scale. It is already being done on a voluntary basis in certain counties. For instance, it is being done with extreme thoroughness in County Cork, being spear-headed by the Archaeology Department of University College Cork. Again I read in the same paper that the survey is now almost complete in County Cork and that next year it is hoped to publish the first full inventory of archaeological sites and monuments in Cork city and county. Therefore this work is already being carried out with great success. I hope the work of those voluntary people can be embodied in that of the Historic Monuments Council, and, furthermore, that the good work being done will not be duplicated because that would be silly, time-consuming and wasteful in a financial sense. I hope their work will be incorporated in what is proposed under the provisions of this Bill. Indeed I hope that due recognition will be given to such people who have been carrying out that kind of work for generations.

Generally I welcome the Bill. I see it for what it is. In fact Deputy Doyle rightly described it as a reaction to what happened in relation to the Derrynaflan Chalice and its awful outcome. It is a welcome response to that but it must be recognised as a stop-gap measure only. It falls far short of what is now needed if we are serious about preserving our heritage. It does very little, if anything, by way of stopping or preventing this frightful marauding, pillaging, plundering and selling that takes place under the guise of treasure trove. "Treasure" my foot — I can think of much less polite words to use. The word "treasure" would suggest to most of us something for which one has some respect so that one would treasure or protect it. What is happening under the guise of treasure trove in this country is frightening. It is frightening when items turn up in auction rooms in London and so on, when stones are being taken from places like Clonmacnoise and Carrowntemple, sometimes by people who should know better. It is appalling to see what is being done. We all know what is going on, look on and shake our heads.

There is no provision in this Bill that will stop that practice. There is need for a much more comprehensive Bill. There is nothing in the provisions of this Bill to stop the taking of grave slabs, headstones and so on. There is nothing in its provisions that will combat the illegal export of antiquities. That is perhaps its biggest flaw. I take the Minister at his word when he says this is an interim measure only. I take it that it is his intention to correct the position as soon as possible. We should not allow a constitutional fiasco to come between us and the introduction of comprehensive legislation in this area. We are able to deal with the Constitution at other times when it suits us, when we want to do so. Let us have the courage to do so now. If there is need for a constitutional change in relation to private property, and its rights as opposed to other rights, then let us face up to it. Other countries did so years ago and to great effect. Why should we be afraid to do so? As of now we have an extremely narrow definition of what constitutes our heritage. We had a sad experience of this not more than two weeks ago in my own city of Cork. A certain very distinguished scholar in the course of the current controversial debate about Fota Island — where there are beautiful parklands, woodlands, the most precious and rare trees, most of them more than 200 years old, an exquisite arboretum, the likes of which there is not anywhere else in the country, and Italian gardens — was asked about the effect that a proposed sale would have on this, our heritage and his response was — it was quoted publicly — what heritage? He did not see that as being part of our heritage. If he did not see that as being a part of our heritage can we blame those who go around with metal detectors, or those who go around daubing things?

There is a grave need for us to define what constitutes our heritage and to have that definition stitched into the provisions of a comprehensive Bill which will set out to protect it, the kind of Bill that will be underwritten by positive education programmes at every level. There is little point in preserving such things unless everybody can identify with them and appreciate them, which will come only from such good educational programmes at every level. Unfortunately appreciation of our physical environment has been sadly neglected in our educational system over the years. We must seek to correct that omission. Unless we do so, this Bill will be superficial only and its provisions will not find a place in the hearts of the ordinary people.

It is my first time to speak in this new Dáil. I hope that at some stage in the lifetime of this 25th Dáil we will have passed a comprehensive Bill to protect our heritage to be handed on as the natural birthright of the next generation. As a nation we must not allow ourselves to be so overwhelmed by our political problems as they relate to Northern Ireland, so overwhelmed by our economic problems with regard to our balance of payments, day-to-day running costs or borrowing, we must not allow ourselves to be so overwhelmed by those problems, serious though they are, as to neglect this very vital task that we, as legislators, should face up to. If we do this we will earn the respect of the next generation. If we fail to do so, then we cannot rightly claim their respect.

I can assure the House I will be brief. May I first congratulate the Minister of State on his appointment and wish him well in his responsible post in the Office of Public Works? Probably it is the oldest office of State within the country still extant. To that extent he occupies an historical seat of office. I might also congratulate Deputy Quill on her first speech in this House.

This is a limited Bill which the Labour Party propose to support fully because we recognise the basis on which it was prepared and the urgency of the implementation of its provisions. As a socialist party we find it gratifying, in fact satisfactory, that the House in general should recognise that there are certain aspects of private property, owned by individual citizens in this State whose rights and responsibilities extend beyond the benefits which those individuals themselves enjoy, to a greater common good. The property in question, by virtue of its historical, social, cultural or religious historical background forms an integral part of our cultural heritage and so, in part, belongs to all of us. The recognition implicit in the responsibilities of property ownership and the collective and shared ownership of aspects of some private property — because there is a part of every one of us embodied in that property — is something that is essential to a definition of what constitutes the physical attributes of a nation's heritage.

In regard to solving the problem of the desecration, thieving and robbery carried on with the aid of metal detectors, until such time as we can get the legitimate balance right in our Constitution between public and private property, between the legitimate rights of the individual citizen on the one hand and the legitimate rights of the nation to own its heritage in so far as it manifests itself in property, the OPW will continually be faced with legislation. I suspect half a dozen Bills have gone as far as the Attorney General's office only to be stalled on difficulties relating to the constitutionality of interpreting where the dividing line comes with regard to property and where the guillotine comes in regard to compensation.

There was a question on today's Order Paper to the Minister for the Environment from Deputy David Andrews in relation to an on-going case in Dún Laoghaire about a compensation case in relation to planning. This is the very core of this problem. I raise that point with the Minister at the outset of his career in the Office of Public Works. If he does nothing else but bring this issue to the Cabinet table in the context of whatever constitutional discussions may arise he will have ensured for all future generations a correct balance in regard to the rights of property as owned by the individual and the rights of property as forming an integral part of the heritage of the nation.

I would not go as far as to say, as Deputy Quill said, that we need an elaborate programme of interpretation and education. If we can afford such a programme that is fine and I would certainly underwrite it but one thing we should do is ensure that no further damage takes place. We should preserve intact for future generations who will perhaps have less constraints upon their resources, the luxury and the benefit of exploring and extolling their heritage. That is the general point I wish to make and obviously it could be extended in a self-fulfilling way. A legal question mark hangs over the whole area of national monuments, as no doubt the Minister and his officials are well aware. I suggest the Minister should send a memorandum to his Government colleagues pointing out the impasse that exists. I suspect he will find many sympathetic ears in the Custom House and in every local authority. As a former member of a local authority — perhaps he is still a Member — the Minister is acutely aware of the retort of the county manager at the end of a long debate in a county council that "we cannot afford the compensation". We will never be able to afford the compensation until we get that balance right.

To turn to the Bill, the restriction on the detection devices and on the sites of historic wrecks are about as extensive and as draconian — with due respect, I take issue with Deputy Quill in this regard — as is required. The presumption that having a metal detector beside an ancient monument site without a licence is one of guilt is probably pushing out the boat in terms of legality. I fully support it. Such an instrument would hardly be there for the purposes of health or exercise. The fines that have been written into this Bill are very extensive. Deputy Avril Doyle who had a big hand in framing this legislation referred to fines of £5,000 but that was amended in the Seanad. As the Minister stated in his speech and as stated in the Bill there are fines of up to £50,000. It would be hard to find such fines for offences of this kind in any other domestic legislation. There is a substantial deterrent to prevent the kind of destruction that could come about.

We support the way the Minister handled the question of detectors, historic sites and land in the adjacent areas of historic sites. In relation to the compulsory powers of acquisition which the Minister can exercise with regard to adjoining lands necessary for access to a monument, the same problems of compensation and value arise. It is all contained in the Valuations Act, 1919. The broadening powers are very good ones and the Minister is right to take on those powers.

In section 11 the change of the definition of a monument is most significant and I warmly and strongly support it. It is, however, fraught with difficulties. Let us consider what was stated earlier today in the context of urban renewal, a pilot scheme which is about to be embarked upon by the National Building Agency in the town of Wexford. If for very good and proper historic reasons, going back to the 1798 rebellion of which Wexford city has a very rich history, you were to designate parts of the streetscape of Wexford city as a national monument for the purposes of definition under section 11, it should be dealt with in a manner that ensures it does not end up with enormous claims for compensation. Otherwise there will be difficulties. While I welcome very much the broadening of the concept of a group of buildings to be included under the designation of a national monument, if the question of compensation is not in time resolved it will pose difficulties. As a former member of a local authority, the Minister is no doubt well aware of some of those difficulties.

I wish to refer to the changing of the name of the National Monuments Advisory Council to that of the Historic Monuments Council. The balance of representation that has been formally listed in section 4 is probably right. I have some concern about the number of academics that will be on that council but having included one university I presume all the others had to be included for fear of giving offence. I particularly welcome the inclusion of Queens University. There is great force in the argument put forward about not specifically listing any other body. When the Minister decides on the appointment of the five other members he should take soundings unofficially with various groups in the area. To take the institute to which I belong which is listed, the Royal Institute of the Architects of Ireland, I suggest, and there are various ways in which this can be done, that we do not want just any member of that institute to be appointed. The person appointed must have a particular skill, interest or contribution to make. There are various ways in which that can be signalled. Informal discussion between the appointing Minister, presumably the Minister of State at the Department of Finance, and the institute in question would ensure that not just the nominating bodies are represented in a collective and corporate sense but that the individuals who represent them also have a particular skill. When appointing the other five members the Minister should look at the range of skills of the nominees from the various representative bodies and try to balance them out. For example, the Irish Architectural Archive in the context of architectural monuments are a more qualified body than the Royal Institute of the Architects of Ireland. There should be some consultation between those two bodies but that is a matter for the Minister. Perhaps we will discuss it further at a later stage.

This Bill had a very extensive hearing in the Seanad. I do not propose to give it any further airing at this stage. I understand Deputy Kemmy wishes to speak. Am I right in assuming Committee Stage will be taken tomorrow, subject to agreement?

Subject to agreement, but I do not think it will be tomorrow.

In conclusion, I wish the Minister well and I hope he has a speedy passage with this legislation. The Labour Party will be clarifying some sections on Committee Stage. In a legislative sense, a great deal of constructive work was done on a bipartisan basis in the last Seanad and we should build on that work.

Mr. Kemmy rose.

If you will bear with me for a moment, please, Deputy, I will explain the situation. Normally there is no time limit on Second Stage. I appreciate that you have been waiting for some time but ordinarily we would move to the Government side following the contribution from the final speaker of the official parties. It is really for Deputy Brady, who would be called next, to say if he is agreeable to your speaking for — did you indicate five minutes?

Six or seven minutes, but we will not quibble about two minutes.

Normally I would call Deputy Brady next.

I will accede to Deputy Kemmy's request, provided he keeps to the time he says.

He is a man of his word. Deputy Kemmy has six or seven minutes.

This has been a very civilised debate and it would be a pity to introduce a squabbling note at this late hour. I thank Deputy Brady.

I congratulate the Minister on his appointment and wish him well in his new office. He has been given a very important ministry and judging by his address here today, he has a lot to contribute. He has made a very good start as can be seen from the content of his remarks today. He has an important role to play not only in relation to the Government but also in relation to the country as a whole. He has a many sided role involving education and increasing public awareness and consciousness in this matter.

I was impressed by the enlightened content of his remarks today. It was a very clear and honest statement on the position of national monuments in society today. Unfortunately, all too often we ignore our monuments, and at best take them for granted. Let us hope the Minister's address today will herald a new awareness of and a new era for our national monuments. Not only should copies of his address and the Bill be made available to all local authorities, but I would like to see them made available as soon as possible to all schools, colleges and the media generally. The Minister has put a lot of time, effort and study into his address and it should not be filed away in a pigeon hole and forgotten for all time.

I would like to see him take a step further and visit as many local authorities as possible and bring home to them their duties and obligations to their local monuments and heighten their awareness of the importance of these monuments. As I said, copies of his address should be made available to all. It should be used as a catalyst to spark off a national debate on the importance and role of national monuments in our society. I hope the Minister will address himself to that later.

I have mentioned the role of the local authorities in the preservation and presentation of our national monuments. I would like to have seen a greater role given to the National Monuments Advisory Committee in this Bill and in the Minister's address. I would also like to see greater co-operation between the national monuments advisory councils and local advisory committees of local authorities. That too has been omitted from the Bill and from the Minister's address. Sadly much has been lost and many fine monuments have been destroyed and demolished. The Minister mentioned the damage done by a band of British Israelites who dug up a large part of the Hill of Tara in the early nineteen hundreds in search of the Ark of the Covenant, but we do not have to look to the British to find vandals who have disfigured, destroyed and demolished our monuments in the past 65 years. We have enough vandals in Ireland.

I am satisfied that, apart from a few flaws, this is a good Bill, but it is not good enough for the Minister to just bring the Bill before the House. He must monitor it in a determined and continuous way. He must also monitor his own office, the Office of Public Works, and their internal policies and operations. The Minister should not take for granted everything the board tell him. He should use his own intelligence, judgment and experience, examining and analysing everything put before him by that board. In particular he should look at how they maintain their own property.

In this regard, the board have a lot to answer for, and I will give one example. The Custom House in Limerick is one of the finest buildings, public or private, in the city of Limerick. However, the board have failed to maintain it in good condition over the years. Most of the remedial work carried out by the board has been crude and incongruous. They have plaster concrete blocks cheek by jowl with magnificent stonework and stone carvings. In this connection let me say some words of praise for the Minister's predecessor, Deputy Avril Doyle. She travelled to Limerick to see the Custom House and initiated innovation works which will do much to improve and show off that building.

May I also express my gratitude to Deputy Doyle and the previous Government for the practical assistance they have given to Limerick City Trust? The Government gave them £100,000 to help them to renovate the Limerick Potato Market as a civic amenity and a tourist attraction. The trust are now engaged in the completion of this project and I hope the Minister will come to the city to see the work being carried out. I invite him to come as soon as possible because he will see what can be done to preserve and renovate a historic monument. I also hope he will continue the work of his predecessor and provide financial help for the trust to finalise this project.

The city of Kilkenny is a fine example of what can be done to preserve and maintain buildings. Other cities and towns can learn much from what has been achieved there. Those of us who travel there can learn a great deal from seeing how the city is maintaining, preserving and in many cases restoring buildings and shop fronts. This is an example for other towns and cities. It shows how one can undo the harm of unhappy planning and building decisions given by planning authorities.

May I also mention the work of the Cork County Council who have provided an advice clinic in Clonakilty, County Cork, to enable citizens, builders, architects and developers to get the best possible advice free of charge before they seek planning and building permission? This is something other local authorities could learn from.

I wish to commend the Maritime Institute of Ireland and Dr. John de Courcey Ireland on their pioneering work in maritime archaeology and the salvaging of many valuable artefacts. In his address the Minister linked national monuments with tourism. There is nothing wrong with that. That is a valid and proper link. It is a cliché to say we have a rich and priceless heritage in our monuments, but in this case it happens to be true. Sometimes clichés can be true. Let us preserve and appreciate our heritage. I welcome the Register of the National Monuments. It is a most valuable and important development.

In essence, the Bill updates and improves all previous legislation in this field. As chairman of a local national monuments advisory committee, and as a journeyman stonemason, I welcome this Bill.

I wish to thank Deputy Kemmy for his co-operation. The Chair notes, with satisfaction, the customary courtesy and magnanimity of Deputy Gerard Brady.

I congratulate the Minister on his appointment to this very important portfolio and I wish him well in his term of office. I read with interest the debate in the Seanad and I studied many of the points made there.

The Bill is a contribution towards what needs to be done but it falls short in some aspects of creating an awareness of our heritage. Our national heritage is under siege at present and all the peripheral talk about it does not take from the fact that on a day to day basis our national treasures are being looted and sold abroad. It is akin to what happened in Greece where the Elgin Marbles were taken away and sold in England. It is of such national importance that we must take major steps involving other agencies rather than hoping that perhaps fines will deter people from abusing the national heritage.

I will suggest practical ways whereby we can create awareness in this regard. We have had a huge success in urbanised areas by the establishment of the neighbourhood watch scheme. It has worked very well and crime, burglary and vandalism have dropped by as much as 70 per cent in certain areas. The scheme was fuelled by a need among local communities and this could be applied directly to a community watch scheme in relation to our national monuments which would be a most effective way of preventing, or at least discouraging, the desecration of national monuments by those wielding metal detectors in search of buried treasure or carrying implements for the removal of carved stone slabs. Anything of that nature could be guarded by a community watch scheme. There is no reason for community watch schemes not being formed to watch over our national monuments. Admittedly, many of the sites of ancient and mediaeval monasteries, tumuli, dolmens, castles, etc., are in remote areas not easily kept under surveillance. Equally, predators carrying metal detectors, crowbars and shovels in isolated areas are easily seen and detected by local people. The fact that communities in surrounding areas are known to have banded together in the interests of protecting the local heritage will, on many occasions, act as a direct deterrent.

Local historical societies, secondary schools, Macra na Féirme, the GAA, tourist associations, the Boy Scouts and Girl Guides could supply voluntary members to act as watchdogs and to report the despoilers to the Garda. That is what is needed and would be one way of combating the current wave of treasure hunting and so on. We need a greater interest in and appreciation of our historic sites. When criminals are at large they must be matched by a system of community watch in conjunction with the local gardaí. It would be an ideal opportunity to set this in train, in tandem with the registers of archaeological treasure from each county and to involve local people at that level.

I should like also to suggest to the Minister that he should use his good office, in conjunction with the Minister for Education, to bring archaeology as a subject directly into the school. Unfortunately, heretofore, subjects like archaeology and the study of our national heritage and culture were purely for the academics, it was way beyond the thinking of the people who perhaps, en masse, should be enjoying these great treasures. The time is now ripe to bring the subject into schools and to teach an appreciation at secondary level of education. Indeed, even at primary level, it should be inculcated in the minds of young people that it is their heritage and that it belongs to them, which might avoid the protests and confrontations which build up when an ancient monument is desecrated or interfered with. The most poignant example for me, as a Dubliner, was the Wood Quay saga which, looking back, should never have happened.

The third suggestion I should like to make to the Minister is that he should use his good office to recommend the appointment of professional archaeologists. In the capital city of Dublin there is no city archaeologist although the city is rich in treasure dating from preViking, Viking and mediaeval up to the present day. It is a national disgrace that a nation like Ireland can fall down in regard to such an appointment, it is bewildering to say the least. When treasure is found nobody knows where to go. Most people go to a museum hoping to get an encapsulated view on their find. With the amount of redevelopment taking place in Dublin at present and the breaking down of streetscapes and monuments, it is an insult not to have ongoing consultations with an archaeologist working with the local authority. The thousands of people who went to Wood Quay to protest in vain against the buildings on that site and its destruction will always remember it. However, it could have been avoided if professional people had been dealing with the subject and if we had not been surrounded by enthusiastic amateurs engulfed in a bureaucratic tangle.

Another point is that a proper reward should be paid to people who find treasure. I am totally opposed to metal detectors but finds are not always made by this method. Happily a lot of our treasure was found in the last century before sophisticated ploughing techniques, bulldozers and JCBs were invented. It was almost a piecemeal type of investigation but now treasure is being found all the time and a proper award should be paid. Many counties are well known for their treasures, the Derrynaflan Chalice proved that, but there is a lot more to be discovered. A person could unearth a small hoard of coins, ring money, fibulae or gold collars but, generally, people do not go to the museum to declare that they have found items of this nature. They have got too greedy, perhaps because a proper reward is not paid. Precious metal is committed to the crucible for melting and is permanently lost to the nation. That has happened time and time again, there are many examples of our treasures having been exported, never to be seen again.

Debate adjourned.
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