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Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 5 May 1987

Vol. 372 No. 4

Private Members' Business. - Adoption Bill, 1987: Second Stage.

Question proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

The main provisions in the Adoption Bill, 1987, extend the categories of children who may be legally adopted. In particular the Bill provides for the adoption of legitimate children who are destined to remain in either residential or fostercare for all or most of their childhood and whose parents have failed in their contitutional duty towards them. The Bill will also permit the adoption of an illegitimate child abandoned by his or her natural mother in circumstances in which such child cannot currently be adopted. Other changes are also made in the Adoption Acts which derive from a recent judicial decision determining that widows and widowers cannot be treated differently in the area of adoption and from the lowering of the age of majority to 18 years.

The adoption of children currently is governed by the Adoption Acts of 1952 and 1976. Under these Acts an adoption order can be made only in respect of a child who (i) is an orphan, or (ii) is illegitimate, or (iii) has been legitimated by the marriage of his parents after his birth but whose birth has not been re-registered.

A child's mother or guardian or any person having control over him must consent to his adoption. In the case of a legitimated child whose birth has not been re-registered, the consent of both mother and father is required. There is a two stage procedure involved in the adoption process. There must be an initial agreement to place the child for adoption and there must be a subsequent consent given to the making of an adoption order after a child has been placed with prospective adoptive parents, before the Adoption Board can make such order. This latter consent can currently be dispensed with in certain circumstances by direction of the High Court. These circumstances would normally relate to a situation where the court considers that the mother has unreasonably withheld her consent to adopt or has withdrawn a consent already given and where the court believes that the child has bonded with its proposed adoptive parents and it is in the best interests of the child that an adoption order be made.

Children who are not eligible for adoption at present are: 1. A legitimate child with a parent or parents alive; 2. An illegitimate child whose mother has not agreed to its placement for adoption. 3. A foundling infant where it cannot be established that such infant is illegitimate.

For many years there have been calls to amend the law to permit the adoption of such children in circumstances where they have been separated from or abandoned by parents who are unlikely to resume or incapable of resuming their parental roles. The majority of those children for whom a change in the law is required are legitimate children in long-term residential or fostercare, placed in such care by or with the assistance of a health board or voluntary body. There are also children who fall within this category who have been placed directly by parents with relatives or friends without the formal intervention of any health board or other body or organisation.

In 1980 a survey carried out by the Federation of Services for Unmarried Parents and their Children among its member organisations which comprise statutory, religious and voluntary bodies dealing with child welfare showed that 100 per cent of the respondents to the survey favoured the adoption of legitimate children. Whilst the majority of the members of the Task Force on Child Care Services inexplicably in their final report to the Minister for Health in September of 1980 did not make any recommendation to reform the adoption laws, a minority of the members of that body formed the view that adoption fell within the area to be covered by their report and referred expressly to the need to extend the possibility of adoption to children currently excluded from it. Emphasising that adoption is one of the alternatives which must be considered when the future care of a child who has no family of his own to care for him is being planned they stated "we do not think the law should continue to discriminate in relation to eligibility of children for legal adoption on the basis of the marital status of the childs parents". They emphasised that a result of the current law in so far as it prevents the adoption of abandoned legitimate children is "that some children will stay in care throughout their childhood who could instead be growing up happily in adoptive families" and recommended that the law should be changed to permit the adoption of legitimate children.

The need to change the law was again emphasised by the Review Committee on Adoption Services in their report published in May of 1984. In their report they state:

We are firmly of the view that a child's eligibility for adoption should not be determined on the basis of the marital status of his parents. A major defect of the present law is that it excludes from adoption many children who may be in need of the benefits which it can offer. There are children in the care of the Health Boards and religious and voluntary organisations who have never experienced the happiness of growing up in a stable home environment with legal security and who, under our present laws, are denied the likelihood of ever being able to do so. These are children born legitimate with a parent or parents alive; some have been abandoned by parents unable or unwilling to discharge their parental obligations; others have been left effectively parentless as a result of the chronic illness of a father or mother or both. There are some such children who may be in fostercare and who will therefore usually have the benefits of a settled home. The disability in this instance is that they cannot be legally integrated into their foster family or into another family who might like to adopt them.

The committee further on in their report make the startling disclosure that while such children cannot be adopted in Ireland, in order to circumvent the law and to extend the possibility of a normal family life to such children in submissions made to them, the committee were "informed that some legitimate children are being sent out of the jurisdiction — that is, out of this country — because of the present restriction on their adoption here".

It is noteworthy that the members of the Adoption Review Committee who recommended that the possibility of adoption be extended to abandoned legitimate children consisted of a cross-section of persons involved with children in care, particularly the adoption services and including health administrators, social workers, an adoptive parent, legal experts, a child psychiatrist and a priest. Following publication of their report, this recommendation received widespread support from bodies and individuals interested in child welfare, including the Central Council of Catholic Adoption Societies, the Adoptive Parents' Association, Cherish and the Irish Association of Social Workers. There is consequently general agreement on the part of all those working in the child care area and, I believe, general agreement across the community that the law should be amended in the way provided for by this Bill.

I now turn to outline the specific provisions of the Bill as published. The Bill will permit in certain severely restricted circumstances the adoption of a legitimate child with a parent or parents alive or of an illegitimate child whose mother has not agreed to its placement for adoption. It will allow such adoptions only in those instances where for a continuous period of not less than 12 months immediately preceding the time of the making of the adoption application, the parents of a child, for physical or moral reasons, have failed in their duty towards the child; that it is likely that such failure will continue without interruption until the child attains the age of 18 years and that such failure constitutes an abandonment on the part of the parents of all parental rights, whether under the Constitution or otherwise, with respect to the child.

On the question of failure of duty, it will be a matter for the High Court to interpret each particular instance. In this regard the wording of the relevant section reflects the wording of Article 42.5 of the Constitution which permits the State to supply the place of the parents in certain exceptional circumstances.

Sections 2 to 5, inclusive, establish the procedures for the adoption of those children to whom this Bill is relevant. The procedure outlined is as follows: persons making an application for the adoption of such a child must have had custody of the child in their home for a continuous period of not less than 12 months immediately before the making of the application. This is provided for under section 2 (1) (b). Secondly, where a child has been placed in foster care by a health board, the board must give their consent to the application for an adoption order, in accordance with section 2 (1) (d). Thirdly, the applicants must make two applications, an application to the Adoption Board for the making of an adoption order and an application to the High Court to authorise the Adoption Board to make an adoption order.

The Adoption Board will deal with the matter first. They will examine the application for an adoption order using the same criteria as applies at present to normal applications. For example, they will look at the eligibility of the proposed adoptive parents, their suitability as adopters, whether the child has successfully become part of their family and other matters of relevance. If the Adoption Board are satisfied that an adoption order would be appropriate, they will make a declaration stating that they would be prepared to make such an order if the High Court approved of the application before it.

The High Court then examines the matter and if it is satisfied that the parents have failed in their duty and that the failure is likely to continue without interruption until the child is 18 and that having due regard to the natural and imprescriptible rights of the child it would be in the best interests of the child that an adoption order should be made, it authorises the Adoption Board to make such order. The court will be obliged before the making of its authorisation to hear the evidence of the natural parents if they are willing to give such evidence. If their identity is unknown, of course no such evidence will be available. If such parents refuse to give evidence or simply cannot be found, it will also be possible for the court to make the appropriate order. It will also as far as practicable give due consideration to the wishes of the child. This will be a matter of particular importance in the context of older children.

On receipt of the High Court order the Adoption Board are empowered to make the adoption order. If, however, in an exceptional situation, the board find that the circumstances of the prospective adopters have changed to the extent that they are no longer suitable or eligible, the board need not make the adoption order.

The effect of the adoption order, as is the case in regard to all adoption orders, would be to terminate permanently the rights and duties of the natural parents in regard to the child. Effectively the procedures I have described are laid down in sections 2 to 4 of the Bill.

Section 5 provides for other changes. Under the present statutes a child cannot be legally adopted until he is at least six weeks old. There is an upper age limit of seven years but the Adoption Board can, in effect set this limit aside and make an adoption order in respect of a person currently up to the age of 21 years. Many such orders have been made in respect of children over seven years of age. The new Bill will confine adoption in all future cases to single persons up to the age of 18 years, in line with the new age of majority. There will be a transitional provision to cover applications pending under existing legislation in respect of persons up to the age of 21 years.

Section 7 of the Bill seeks to provide for an equality of treatment as between men and women. The Adoption Act, 1952 provided for widows to adopt but did not make provision for adoption orders to be made in favour of widowers. The Adoption Act, 1974 permitted widowers to adopt in certain restricted circumstances but in so far as different criteria were held to apply to widowers than applied to widows these were held by the High Court to be unconstitutional in the case of T. O'G versus the Attorney General and others, reported in Irish Law Reports Monthly, 1985, page 61. The provisions contained in section 7 make the necessary consequential amendments to the Adoption Acts to take into account the decision of the High Court made in this case and to place both widows and widowers in a position of equality under the Acts. It is, of course, unusual for either a widow or a widower to adopt. In the vast majority of instances adoption orders are made in favour of married couples. Nevertheless, the changes proposed in this Bill bring the statutory provisions into line with the decision of the High Court in that case and remove a provision in the statutes which is at variance with the Constitution.

Section 9 seeks to deal with problems which arise both under the main subject matter of this Bill and with difficulties which arise under the Adoption Act, 1974. Section 3 of the 1974 Act currently permits prospective adopters to apply to the High Court for an order dispensing with the consent of a natural parent or guardian of a child adoptable under the existing Acts, where an agreement to place for adoption has been signed and such parent or guardian has either refused to consent to the making of an adoption order or has withdrawn a consent already given. Such an order can only be made by the High Court where it is the best interests of the child. In circumstances where a consent is either withheld or withdrawn, prospective adopters, through no fault of their own, may be forced to become involved in legal proceedings in order to finalise the adoption precess. Since 1974 about 50 such cases have come before the High Court. The risk of incurring legal costs may in many instances inhibit the initiation of court action under section 3 of the 1974 Act, even where such action is in the best interests of the child and where the social workers and the health board or adoption agency believe such action should be taken.

While the State has in practice frequently discharged all or a portion of the legal expenses incurred by persons who have been party to such proceedings by way of ex-gratia payments through the Attorney General's office, following a court recommendation that the Attorney General meet such legal costs, there is at present no formal statutory provision to ensure that such costs will be discharged. The Review Committee on Adoption Services recommended that the current informal arrangement should be given a statutory basis and the provisions of this section so provide.

The section also provides for legal costs incurred by applicants for adoption to be similarly discharged where an application is brought in good faith in the best interests of a child pursuant to section 2 (a) of this Bill. Thus applicants to adopt a legitimate child in the circumstances prescribed in this Bill would be placed in a position whereby they could process the adoption application without being placed at risk of incurring large and unnecessary legal expense by having to seek a High Court authorisation to complete the adoption process. The section further exempts adoption court proceedings from payment of court fees. At present all such proceedings when they arise before the courts result in prospective adopters and natural parents of children being subjected to charges which many of them can ill afford and which I believe are indefensible in the context of court proceedings seeking to ensure that the welfare of children is safeguarded.

I now turn to the constitutional implications of the provisions of this Bill. The Review Committee on Adoption Services in recommending that the possibility of adoption be extended to legitimate children note that there are conflicting views as to whether to allow the adoption of such children in any circumstances of any nature whatsoever may be in violation of the Constitution. Section 2 of the Bill as drafted is designed to ensure that legitimate children will only become eligible for adoption in constitutionally permissible circumstances. The constitutional issue that arises derives from Articles 41 and 42 in which both the family and parents are stated to possess inalienable and imprescriptible rights. It has been argued by some that if parental rights are inalienable they cannot be totally extinguished by an adoption order in any circumstances. A contrary view, however, is that parents may by their behaviour surrender or abandon their rights to their children and where they do so the State has a duty under Article 42.5 "to supply the place of parents" by appropriate measures "where the parents for physical or moral reasons fail in their duty towards their children".

The latter view has been endorsed by Mr. Justice Walsh in the Supreme Court on the only occasion on which this specific issue has been averted to comprehensively by a member of the Irish judiciary. In the case of G.v. An Bord Uchtála—(1978) Irish Reports—he stated:

In my view there is nothing whatever in the Constitution to prevent a member of a family passing out of that family... I do not see any impediment in principle to a child's passing out of one family and becoming a member of another family in particular circumstances... parents are the natural guardians of the children of the family. Guardianship may be surrendered or abandoned provided that doing so does not infringe any constitutional rights of the child and is not inimical to the welfare of the child.

Further on, adverting to this issue, Judge Walsh said:

"Article 42.5 of the Constitution speaks of the case where parents fail in their duty towards their children for physical or moral reasons; it provides that the State as guardian of the common good by appropriate means shall endeavour to supply the place of the parents, but always with due regard for the natural and imprescriptible rights of the child. Under that section the State may very well by legislation provide for the failure of the parents, and in appropriate cases it may very well extend the law beyond simple provisions for a change of custody. A parent may for physical or moral reasons decide to abandon his position as a parent or he or she may be deemed to have abandoned that position, a failure in parental duty may itself be evidence of such an abandonment... Where there is a complete abandonment of the parental right and duty, the State may be justified in taking measures by statute or otherwise to protect the rights of the child; these measures may include the enactment of adoption legislation."

On the basis of the view expressed by Mr. Justice Walsh not only is adoption permitted in circumstances prescribed in this Bill but I would suggest that there is a duty on the State pursuant to Article 42.5 of the Constitution to extend the possibility of adoption to such children and it is arguable that the failure of this House to do so to date is in violation of the constitutional duty imposed on it by Article 42. In this context, the State's failure to do so to date can be seen to be in violation of the right that each legitimate child has to be part of a martial family and to grow up in a secure and certain environment in a family which it can call its own and with which it can identity by acquisition legally of that family's name.

The only extensive reference of any nature made by the Irish Judiciary to the constitutionality of legislation permitting the adoption of legitimate children is that already referred to by Mr. Justice Walsh. It should also be noted, however, that in the recent Supreme Court decision delivered in a case entitled K.C. & A.C. v. An Bord Uchtála (The Adoption Board) which is reported in 1985 Irish Law Reports Monthly and can also be found in 1985 Irish Reports under the name in re J.H. a Minor, the court accepted that the State can intervene to protect the welfare of children where there are “compelling reasons” for it to do so or where “it is satisfied” that it has been established that pursuant to Article 42.5 parents have failed in their constitutional duty towards their child. Consequently it appears clear that the proposals contained in this Bill which seek to provide for the adoption of legitimate children within the context of Articles 41 and 42 of the Constitution fall fully within the parameters laid down and described by those Articles.

It is, of course, essential that any legislation providing for adoption be constitutionally sacrosanct. It is essential that if this Bill is passed through this House and children are adopted pursuant to its provisions, no doubt can arise as to the constitutional validity of any adoption orders made pursuant to it. Whilst I am satisfied that this Bill fully accords with the constitutional provisions laid down in Articles 41 and 42, in the light of recent experiences of this House in seeking to predict the outcome of court constitutional pronouncements, it is in the interests of ensuring a secure and certain law that upon the passage of this Bill by both the Dáil and the Seanad it be referred by the president to the Supreme Court pursuant to Article 26 of the Constitution so that its constitutionality might be tested and determined. It is to be noted that the Review Committee on the Adoption Services recommended that such a course of action be adopted with regard to any Bill containing measures such as that contained in this Bill.

In the context of referring to the Review Committee on Adoption Services it is worth stating that a vast number of worthwhile recommendations are contained in the report published by that committee. This Bill seeks to implement only a small portion of those recommendations and there is no doubt that there is a need for a comprehensive overhaul of our adoption laws and adoption services taking into account the comprehensive recommendations for reform made by the review committee. It is hoped that upon this Bill passing both this House and the Seanad and becoming law this party will have an opportunity again, through a further Private Members' Bill, to bring before this House other necessary changes required in our adoption laws.

I also welcome the fact that in reply to a Dáil question the Minister for Health on 30 April 1987 indicated that in the coming months he intends to study carefully the changes in the present adoption laws proposed by the review committee with a view to introducing appropriate amending legislation. Any further or additional legislation that is required or any reviews that are required of the report of the review committee should not be an excuse or reason for postponing the introduction of legislation to extend the possibility of adoption of abandoned legitimate or illegitimate children as provided for in this Bill.

The Fine Gael Party, like other parties in this House, attach great importance to the principle that children should, wherever possible, grow up in their natural families and that families should, where necessary, receive help to enable their children to do so. Many parents have their children placed by health boards in residential or foster care because of emotional, financial, health or environmental difficulties of a temporary nature. The State must, of course, continue to provide such temporary care where required and do everything possible to assist families in short term difficulties to resolve their problem and to enable children temporarily living apart from their families to return home. There are, however, a considerable number of children in long term residential or foster care who have long since ceased to have any relationship of any nature with their natural parents and who have to all intents and purposes lost contact with them. Ireland is the only country in Western Europe that does not permit the adoption of such children. I believe that no logical or rational reason can be given for refusing the possibility of adoption to an eight or nine year old child who has spent all or most of his or her childhood in care and who finds himself or herself living in a residential institution with no prospect of again returning to his or her family. No logical or rational reason can be given for denying to a child in long term foster care the right to become a permanent part of a family caring for him or her and for denying to such child the security that adoption can extend. I have not at any stage in this House since becoming a Member of it heard of a Member on any side of this House argue that abandoned children should for all time be confined to residential or foster care or arguing the merits of retaining the anachronistic and Dickensian approach that currently forms part of our legislation. The central provisions of this Bill extend to abandoned legitimate and abandoned illegitimate children the possibility of a secure family life in the home of adoptive parents, something that the current law at present makes impossible. It is my hope that this Bill will have the full support of all Members of this House regardless of party.

In view of the proposals in the Private Members' Bill now before us, it is obviously desirable that I should clarify for the House the Government's intention in regard to adoption legislation. Deputies will recall that my predecessor, Deputy Desmond, introduced the Adoption Bill, 1986, last November. It had not reached Second Stage when the Dáil was dissolved and it consequently lapsed.

In recent weeks Deputy Shatter, on behalf of the Fine Gael Party, introduced a somewhat similiar Bill — the Adoption Bill, 1987 — the Second Stage of which we are now debating. These two Bills differ only in detail. The main provision common to both of them permits the adoption of children without the consent of their parents or guardians in exceptional circumstances where, for example, they have been abandoned or ill-treated or where their parents are unfit to care for them. The main group of children covered by both sets of proposals would include legitimate children with a parent or parents alive.

The Government agree in principle with the proposal to provide for the adoption of legitimate children in exceptional circumstances. This proposal was one of the principal recommendations in the report of the Review Committee on Adoption Services and has been supported by a wide range of interested groups in the child care area. I believe we are the only country in western Europe which lacks provision for the adoption of such children. I am aware, of course, that there has been considerable hesitancy about introducing legislative change of this sort because of the fear that it might in some way be in conflict with the Constitution, particularly with those articles that protect the status of the natural family.

Indeed Deputy Shatter in presenting his Bill has dealt in detail with that aspect of the legislation. However, I am satisfied that as long as the laws permit the adoption of legitimate children only where it is clearly established that the normal child-parent relationship has ended and is unlikely to be restored there is no conflict involved. Clearly, however, the legislation must be extremely carefully drafted to accord with the Constitution. I would be prepared to look at the suggestion of Deputy Shatter that the legislation might be referred to the Supreme Court under Article 26 of the Constitution.

Because such legislation would represent an important new social provision, and because great care must be taken to ensure its constitutional soundness the Government consider that it would be appropriate for them to initiate the legislation itself, rather than that it should be considered in Private Members' time.

Why? Is Private Members' time irrelevant?

Accordingly, since I assumed office I have been examining the Bill introduced by my predecessor, Deputy Desmond and, with the Government's approval, I have decided to have a Bill prepared to revise the law on the adoption of children and to introduce it at the earliest possible date. The Bill will, of course, require the most careful of drafting to take account of the provisions in the Constitution in relation both to the rights of the family and the rights of children. For that reason, I shall be looking in particular at the possibility of strengthening the safeguards for the natural family contained in the original Bill. I am also of the view that a number of comments and submissions made on the previous Bill should be carefully considered and that some of the suggestions made should be included in the new Bill.

I have studied reports of the proceedings of a seminar on the Adoption Bill, 1986, which took place in Trinity College in January last. There were many informed contributions to that seminar which are worthy of consideration. In addition, a number of written submissions have been received by my Department. I would like to place on record my thanks to those individuals and organisations who took the time to examine the Bill and to submit their views on it. I am also studying their contributions in detail.

At this stage, I do not wish to anticipate the contents of my own Bill but I am anxious to help Deputy Shatter and the House by giving some indication of the options. One change that might be made is in relation to the procedure for applying for an adoption order. The two Bills already published provide that the foster parents, with whom a child had been living for a continuous period of at least one year, would apply for the necessary orders for his adoption. I have studied the comments and submissions made on this matter and at this stage I am inclined to the view that it would be more appropriate that health boards should be the applicants in every case.

That would give health boards a veto over every application.

I am also sympathetically disposed to a view which has been expressed that young married persons under 18 years of age should, where such exceptional applications might arise, be eligible for adoption. The Bill now under discussion and its predecessor would permit the adoption of single persons only. I feel that as it is likely that a number of applications will arise under the new Bill in respect of the adoption of teenagers and older children, that the exclusion of young married persons is unduly restrictive.

An important difference between the Bill put forward by Deputy Shatter and that of the previous Government is the provision in section 9 which would empower the High Court to require the Adoption Board to meet the legal costs of applicants who take proceedings in these new cases. This section would also charge the Adoption Board with meeting costs in certain cases arising where adoptive parents apply to the High Court for an order dispensing with the consent of a natural parent or guardian of a child adoptable under current adoption law. This is a significant new departure from existing practice which I would require time to consider and to consult with others.

I agree in principle with the general thrust of this Private Members' Bill. However, in view of the Government's intentions which I have indicated, the Deputy and his party might wish to reconsider their Bill. I appreciate their concern and their keen interest in this matter and I would assure them that in relation to the Government's Bill I will consider all of their proposals as I am doing in the case of the former Government's Bill. I would equally wish to assure the House that there will be no undue delay on my part in bringing forward a new Bill and having it placed before the House.

I am at some disadvantage in responding at this stage to Deputy Shatter's contribution because I have to sort through what was the intended legislative measure and the explanatory memorandum which related thereto and I hope Deputy Shatter will not take umbrage at it. Apart from the quite reasonable points that Deputy Shatter has now incorporated into his Bill which would involve the question of the Adoption Board meeting the legal costs of the applicants who take proceedings in the new cases, it is, of course, a replica of the Bill which was tabled before the House by both of us when we were in Government. The new matter included in the Bill is worthy of consideration by the House on Committee Stage. When the previous Bill was published there was widespread discussion of the provisions of the Bill and, generally speaking, it was warmly welcomed on all sides of the House and by those who are professionally involved.

I shall confine my comments to one observation, that is, that within the framework of our Constitution, within the substantial constitutional advice received by the Government in the preparation of this Bill its complex provisions were framed. It is no secret that there was great difficulty in keeping within the constraints of Article 42.5 of the Constitution. Even at that point the question of yet another referendum loomed large in the great difficulty facing the Department of Health, the legal advisers of that Department and indeed the Attorney General and his legal advisers. There was great difficulty in reaching agreement on the very sensitive constitutional issues involved. In the end this Bill was brought forward. In due course it may well be that its constitutionality will be tested. If that were to happen, so be it.

I was slightly taken aback on reading the initial pages of Deputy Shatter's contribution. They reminded me so much of the explanatory memorandum, as published.

The Deputy should take it as a compliment.

I do not propose to cavil because the important issue is that this Bill has been introduced after 15 years of agitation. Indeed I remember writing an article in The Irish Times 15 years ago asking that this Bill be introduced. What is most disturbing is the desperately slow pace of enactment of fundamental, necessary reforming legislation, such as this Bill before us this evening. For that reason I commend Deputy Shatter on having kept the fire lighting under us and for having brought forward this Bill in Private Members' time.

I know there are great pressures on the Minister at present, as there are on the staff in his Department. I would urge him to come to a rapid conclusion in relation to the additional provision proposed by Deputy Shatter and in regard to any further thoughts he and the current Attorney General may have in relation to the procedures being proposed, procedures which have been strongly criticised as being very cumbersome but which are necessary if we are to remain within the awsome rigours of the Constitution. I have experienced great difficulty in explaining this to persons with a direct interest in adoption. We will endeavour to remain within the rigours of the Constitution. I am glad that Deputy Shatter in his competence has also decided that we should remain within them. I shall be keenly interested in hearing from the other members of the legal profession in the House as to how they will judge whether we are remaining within the constraints of the Constitution.

I welcome the Bill and would urge the Minister to endeavour to have it enacted in 1987 — I will be as modest as that. If there was one thing I learned from being in office it was to be very modest about one's time scales.

The Deputy should not make a virtue out of that modesty.

It is a poor virtue but it represents the reality of the pace of legislative reform. It should be remembered that we have another six to eight weeks between now and the adjournment of the House for the summer recess. When we resume mid-October we shall have then approximately seven weeks only to the end of the year. I, for one, will be profoundly grateful if it has all been achieved by the end of 1987.

I am very glad that Private Members' time is being put to such good use this evening. I thank the Minister for his support of the principles of the Bill. I thank Deputy Shatter for having brought forward the Bill in Private Members' time. His concern in relation to this fundamental issue is of very long standing. Those Members who have taken a particular interest in this Bill will have been pleased to have a fundamental airing of this reform.

I must say at the outset how utterly disappointed I am at the Minister's response to this Bill. He seems to take the view—one often taken by people who occupy Government in this House — that unless something is initiated by the Government there is something inherently wrong in it. To my knowledge the last two Bills challenged successfully in the Supreme Court were Bills initiated in this House and in the Seanad by Government parties, the last being that in relation to the Single European Act. Prior to that there was the Bill permitting voting on the part of British citizens. Both of those measures were introduced by the Government of the day, both successfully brought through this House by Government parties yet both failed on constitutional grounds or, in relation to that pertaining to the Single European Act, it being held that we were not in a position to ratify that Act. Therefore the Minister is neither fair nor right. Indeed I do not think he believes it himself when he says he would prefer that the legislation had been initiated by him because of the need for careful drafting and so on.

I agree with what Deputy Shatter said here this evening and what he said in his book on family law, that there is need for any legislation in this area to be brought before the Supreme Court in order to test its constitutionality. The consequences of any adoption order being shot down as a result of this Bill, if passed, but being found to be unconstitutional, would be so horrendous for the children and families involved as to be beyond thought. I hope that if this Bill is passed the President will see fit to refer it to the Supreme Court to clear up its constitutionality once and for all.

Since we have a Government that do not have a majority it is a pity they would not take Private Members' time seriously, that they would not take the views of this House seriously, that they would not take this Bill on board and support it. It is because so many people in Government in this country have failed to bring forward legislation of this type that it has been found necessary on many occasions in this House for individuals who are not in a position—because they are not in Government — to have to introduce Bills in Private Members' time or by whatever other means they see fit. Indeed it is a disgrace that this Government are this evening, for whatever reason, opposing this Bill. It is not good enough for the Minister simply to say he needs more time to consider the serious matters involved.

As far as I am aware, perhaps with the exception of one Independent Deputy, everybody else in Opposition supports legislation of this kind. I hope all Members will be present when we vote on this matter on Wednesday week to ensure that this important Bill for children who are neglected and abondoned will receive its Second Reading and proceed to Committee Stage. I hope that at that stage the Minister, I am others will have an opportunity of putting forward amendments.

I suppose it is a sign of the differences which exists in this House that the Minister seems to think that the measure is too liberal. I take the view that the measure is far too restrictive. I accept, however, that because of the constitutional difficulties which may be involved and the fears that are often engendered, when debates of this kind take place, by irresponsible people, some of whom like to call themselves part of the moral majority, that it may not be possible in the Ireland of 1987 to get anything more liberal through at this stage. I regret that this is the case because there are many neglected children who will not be covered by the provisions of this Bill: children who are sent out by their parents to commit crimes; children who are allowed by their parents to roam the streets until very late hours of the night; and children who are neglected in regard to normal parental obligations. Under the provisions of this Bill these children could not be put up for adoption, could not belong to a happy and secure family and have all the things we would like to see them have.

Ireland was 26 years behind England and Wales in introducing adoption laws. They were introduced in those countries in 1926 and it was not until 1952 that adoption legislation was introduced in this country. We have come a long way since 1951 when the then Minister for Justice in an article in The Irish Times of 8 February 1951 said: “A law that would compel a mother to waive for all time her rights to her child would be against charity and against the common law of justice.” I am delighted that we have come a long way but unfortunately as a result of what the Minister has said this evening we have not come far enough.

I look forward to the day when the rights and interests of children will take precedence over their parents' rights and before = "1" = "-1"interests and when we will not have court decisions that simply seem to imply, as I understand it, that the rights of children are almost always in the interests of those children who remain with their natural parents. I do not accept that the rights of all children exist with those children who stay with their natural parents. I regret that some court decisions have seen fit to take children away from their adoptive parents. In one case a child who had been with people for up to three years and because his or her — I do not know whether it was male or female — natural parents subsequently married that child was taken away from the people they had been living with and sent back to their natural parents. That was done because the courts upheld that the interests of that child were best served by being with their natural parents. That may be the case in some circumstances but I do not think it is necessarily the case that a child's best interests are served by being with their natural parents. In that regard the remarks of Justice Walsh which are covered on page 13 of the report of the Review Committee on Adoption Services are interesting. If views of this kind were taken by more people it would lead us to a situation where more children could have the opportunity of growing up in a happy and secure family. Justice Walsh said:

Where there is a complete abandonment of the parental right and duty, the State may be justified in taking measures by statute or otherwise to protect the rights of the child. These measures may include the enactment of adoption legislation. It has always to be borne in mind that some inalienable rights are absolutely inalienable while others are relatively inalienable.

Although those are the views of Justice Walsh of the Supreme Court they are not the views of the court, they are simply the views of one person.

As we have seen with regard to the Single European Act very important decisions are made on a three to two verdict. Since that may be the outcome in similar cases being taken as a result of this legislation it is very desirable, as Deputy Shatter said, if this Bill is passed — and I hope it is passed through this House whatever about the Seanad—that its constitutionality will be tested before any adoption orders are made on foot of it.

The Minister also said he did not think it was desirable that only the adoptive parents could bring applications before the court to have the child adopted. He seems to think that right should be vested with the health boards and that they should have the monopoly of bringing such applications before the court. That would be to deny the adoptive parents the right to apply to the court and would be extremely unfair. It would be wrong of the Minister to allow that application to be taken by the health board. It is wrong that institutions or State agencies should be the sole judges on this matter. It is desirable that adoptive parents who have a child living with them for a continuous period of 12 months should, if they so wish, make an application to the adoption board and subsequently to the High Court to have that child legally adopted.

One of the sad features of recent life in this country is that there are so few children available for adoption. Although there has been a huge increase in the number of births to unmarried mothers, there has not been anything like a similar increase in the number of children available for adoption. While it may be a good thing that more and more unmarried mothers are keeping their children, possibly as a result of changes in social attitudes and changes in relation to unmarried mothers' allowances and so on, as somebody who deals frequently with children and unmarried mothers I do not believe that many unmarried mothers get the kind of expert help they require during their pregnancy and subsequently when the child is born. Although wishing to keep their children many of them give them for adoption sometimes after three years. If there was sufficient professional help and advice available to them, which I hope could be made available to them, many of them might choose in their own interests and in the interests of the child to have that child placed for adoption at an earlier age. Many unmarried mothers feel that the advice which they were given by friends or whoever was not adequate, they did not have the kind of professional advice required by somebody having a baby on their own and they might have made a different decision if they had had professional advice. It is regrettable that that kind of professional expertise is not available to them at an early stage.

Many social workers will tell you that these children are often initially neglected and subsequently end up being placed for adoption. It is a pity that that could not be done at an earlier stage. It is in the interests of the child in particular that they are placed for adoption at as early an age as possible. It is easier for the child and the circumstances in which they are going to grow up. It is also better for the adoptive parents because the younger they get a child the better it will be for them and for the relationship and the bond which will exist between the parents and the child.

In relation to the technical details of this Bill, the procedures that are outlined are rather cumbersome and unnecessarily difficult. The Bill is very restrictive. I wish that we lived in a country where we would have a more liberal form of adoption law and where we could have more legitimate children adopted than is recommended by the provisions of this Bill. As I said earlier, I recognise the climate we live in and that there are many people who like to terrorise and frighten people by telling them that under this Bill children will be taken from the poor and given to the rich and children will be grabbed from you if you let them out of your sight. Unfortunately that kind of mentality exists. It is regretable that people who have this mentality get so much attention and publicity. They end up convincing and confusing many ordinary commonsense individuals who I believe share the views I have but who, because of the presentation of arguments when these matters come up for discussion, end up getting so confused that they prefer to say, what we have is probably better than what we might have so we had better stay with what we have got. It is regrettable that that is the case.

One of the provisions which I think is unduly restrictive — and I would like to hear Deputy Shatter's comments on this when he is summing up next week—is that the onus of proof is on the adoptive parents to prove that it is likely the natural parents will neglect the child right up to the age of 18 years and that they will continuously neglect that child. I think that is going to be very difficult to prove. I would prefer if the onus of proof were switched and if it were the case, for example, that the court could make an order that the child be placed for adoption, unless it were to believe in commonsense and given the facts that are available, that the parents would resume their responsibilities and that they would be good parents. Unless the court felt that the parents would resume their responsibilities and would be good and fit parents to look after their child I think that child should be placed for adoption. This should be the case rather than the adoptive parents having to prove that they will be bad parents and will neglect the child. I submit if parents neglect their children for two or three years that is more than adequate to cause severe damage to the child and to cause those parents to forego their rights to have that child, and to allow that child to be placed for adoption. The 18-year period is very restrictive, and I think it will cause a lot of damage and possibly make this Bill unworkable.

The couple will have to have the child living with them for a continuous period of 12 months but what will happen if the child was in hospital during this period? Would that period be included as part of the 12 months? It may well be; I do not know. Perhaps Deputy Shatter would like to comment on that as it is certainly not clear from the provisions of the Bill.

Many people suggest the minimum age for adoption should be lowered from 25 years, which is recommended in this Bill, to 21 years or even younger. I do not accept that view. There are few children available for adoption in this country. Nowadays most people marry in their mid-twenties and by the time they have exhausted the possibility of having children of their own, having gone through the various tests and the emotional trauma attached to that, they may be in their thirties before they turn to the question of adoption. I think if they are to have a fair chance to adopt a child it would be unfair and undesirable to allow 20-years olds, 21 or 22-years olds—who previously would not have been married for a long period — to have the same kind of rights. Twenty five years is a reasonable age. The more mature people are, the better. I would not share the views expressed by many people that the age limit should be lowered to 21 years or even 18 years.

I feel also that adoption proceedings — both the proposed and the existing proceedings under the adoption laws — should be held in a family-type court, a family tribunal or a court of that nature. Of course, we do not have such courts in this country. This type of court is needed not only to hear adoption cases but to hear the huge number of marital breakdown cases that are now coming before our courts. Given the adversarial nature of our courts and the fact that very often they do not have the professional expertise that is needed to deal with family disputes or cases relating to children and adoption, I think it is highly undesirable that a court of that kind would hear adoption cases. I would prefer if we had proper family tribunals, staffed by experts such as recommended by the all-party Joint Committee on Marriage Breakdown when they made recommendations two years or so ago in this House. Those kind of courts are badly needed, not just for adoption cases but for family disputes and marital breakdown cases. Many people have told me they would prefer to go on living in misery rather than to go before our existing court structure, because of the nature of the courts and the fact that they drive people further apart rather than bring them together. I am sure in adoption proceedings the court structure as it exists at present is not at all adequate to deal with adoption proceedings.

Deputy Shatter referred to legal costs. Many of the people who are concerned about this area of our law, particularly adoptive parents, have told me that one of the most difficult things they have experienced is the high cost of taking legal action. I am told that the cost of the average court proceedings varies from between £3,000 to £5,000 and I understand they can go way beyond that, depending on the length of time these proceedings are before the courts. Obviously that is out of reach of the average person. I think it is undesirable that it should be out of the reach of the average person and, therefore, I support what Deputy Shatter says in relation to having legal cost paid by the Attorney General's office or whatever. At present this is done on a purely voluntary basis when the court so recommends. I would like to think in all cases where couples cannot afford to pay for legal proceedings that a lenient and liberal view would be taken of their means and costs would be awarded to them on a statutory basis rather than the voluntary basis that exists at the moment. Because of the prohibitive costs involved there are many people who would not be in a position to establish through the court procedure their right to adoption.

In this Bill Deputy Shatter places widowers on the same footing as widows and I agree with that. I do not support any legislation that discriminates against a person on the basis of their sex. I feel it is a pity, however, that he did not place the natural father who is not married to the natural mother on the same basis as the natural mother. I know this is a contentious issue but where such natural fathers exercise their rights in cases where their paternity has been established and their rights have been vested in them as a result of a court order, they should have to give permission, on the same basis as the natural mother, before their child is adopted. I do not think it is fair or reasonable to continue with a procedure that discriminates against a person on the basis of their sex. I think it is desirable, in so far as it is possible, that all natural fathers of children would exercise their rights and responsibilities to their children and would not run away and simply neglect their rights as they do at present. Indeed when they do, we should make a greater effort to pursue such people and try to establish the fathers of such children and make them responsible rather than have all these responsibilities turned over to the State as happens in many cases.

Before concluding, I should like to return to the comments made in this House this evening by the Minister for Health. I am sure when his views are known outside this House they will cause the same disturbance as they caused inside this House. It is a pity he is missing this opportunity and that he is going to put this legislation on the long finger. I have no doubt, despite what was said earlier, that it will be many months— indeed it may well be years; it may not even be in the lifetime of this Government—before we see similar legislation through this House again. We are missing an opportunity; we are being small-minded and petty simply because the Bill is being introduced in Private Members' time. Deputy Desmond referred to the fact that in about six weeks' time we will be adjourning for the summer recess. I disagree with that too, because I think we should have more regular and longer sittings of this House. It is appalling that we will adjourn perhaps at the end of June and not reconvene until the middle of October when there is important legislation of this kind, and legislation in other areas, which remains to be done.

Hear, hear.

I am quite satisfied that it is not simply a question of this Bill being a Private Members' Bill which is preventing the Minister from supporting it in this House this evening. No doubt he will ensure that all his Deputies are whipped into line next week, despite the great sentiments expressed by many of them during the past few years, to vote down very reasonable and fair legislation. This legislation would help many of our abandoned and neglected children and would show them that the politicians were concerned about their rights and their welfare. It is appalling in 1987 that so few people are concerned about such children simply because they are voiceless and do not have political clout. They are not in a position to lobby outside the gate or send nicely written letters to their representatives but nonetheless their rights are very important and for too long they have been neglected.

To night we have heard from a Government who are prepared to put this legislation on the long finger with the excuse that it might be unconstitutional or whatever. There is only one way of testing the constitutionality of this Bill or any other Bill. No matter what Bill is introduced on this topic, it should be tested because it is very important that the constitutionality of such legislation be established before any adoption orders are made under it. It is highly undersirable that the Government and the Minister are taking the attitude they are adopting here tonight. During the course of the referendum debate on divorce last year many Deputies said they would bring in all kinds of legislation relating to children and material breakdown and would do everything to show they were caring. I do not believe those words either because, like this legislation, that will prove to be difficult. If it can be avoided and swept under the carpet that is what will happen because that is what happened for the last 15 or 20 years.

The Minister made a suggestion in relation to 18-year-olds and under who might be married. He felt that only single people should be affected by this legislation. I do not believe that under 18-year-olds should be married but in the exceptional circumstances where they are married — where, presumably they have established their own identity and are obviously in a position to look after themselves and have a family of their own — it is ludicrous they should be the subject of adoption proceedings. I have no doubt that one such exceptional case might exist somewhere in the country where somebody would like to have his or her identity sorted out but to use that, as the Minister did tonight, is a poor, weak and very strange excuse. Neither the Minister nor anybody in his Department could argue seriously that the provisions of this Bill should be extended to married persons.

When the Task Force on Child Care Services reported two years ago they stated:

The universal devotion of parents to their children is one of the strongest bonds known to the human race. It is as unlikely to be weakened by permitting legal adoption as it is to be strengthened by prohibiting it.

I agree with them. The Review Committee on Adoption Services stated:

In our view adoption should be one of the options available to provide care for all children, whether they are born in or out of wedlock, who cannot grow up in their natural families. We have found general support for that view in the submissions received by us. In all the circumstances that we have considered we recommend that all children should be eligible for adoption irrespective of the marital status of their parents.

They also gave an interesting statistic but as it is two years out of date the situation may well have changed. They said there were 250 legitimate children in long term foster care in this country — in foster care for at least five years — and that there were 650 children in health board residential care. That is a total of 900 children but the number may now have risen to 1,000. We are talking about 1,000 Irish children who have been neglected in some cases, abandoned in other cases and whose parents are not known in some cases.

I congratulate Deputy Shatter for introducing this Bill and for giving us an opportunity to debate it. I, like others, could find plenty of things wrong with it if I wanted to or if I was so disposed to opposing it as the Minister is. We in the Progressive Democrats support the rights of these children. We will support the Bill and seek that it passes Second Stage and goes into Committee Stage. We will seek to amend the Bill, to try to have it less restrictive and less cumbersome. We will try to ensure above all else that the rights of these children take precedence and to that end we will do whatever we can subject to the Constitution. Though it might be nice to do so, I would not recommend, in the present climate and only such a short time after the last referendum which dealt with an area not too far removed from this one, another referendum in the near future because I know what the result would be. We would be told that we were taking children from the poor to give them to the rich. People might think their children would be grabbed from them. I do not wish that kind of debate ever to occur again. I hope that attitudes may change and that people may become more sensible but having heard some of the remarks made in the course of the debate on the coming referendum I do not see any maturity on the part of some people and I certainly do not see much by way of changing attitudes.

The Review Committee on Adoption Services made many excellent recommendations. It is a pity this Bill does not take more of them on board. Greater care should be taken by the Department of Health to ensure that societies registered for the purposes of adopting children apply uniform standards, that those societies have expert professional people working with them, for example, that they would all have as a minimum a qualified social worker and that the same standards would apply across the board to all such societies. In many of the submissions made to the Review Committee on Adoption Services there is criticism, the fact that in many cases the standards were very low.

This afternoon I spoke with some people working in this area and they told me they are not taking any more applications for this year. As far as they were aware the same applies to almost all adoption societies. It is sad, when so many couples are available to adopt children, to give them a secure and stable home, that Members of this House will not see fit to pass even the Second Stage of this legislation and allow possibly only 1,000 more Irish children to be placed successfully for adoption and to be given the benefit of growing up in a stable family environment.

I am very glad to be afforded the opportunity to contribute to the debate on this Private Members' Adoption Bill. The introduction of legal adoption was undoubtedly one of the landmarks in the evolution of our social services during the last few decades. I have no doubt that it has been an influence for enormous good in our society. I am sure that the happiness it has brought to children — over 34,000 children have been adopted since the first Adoption Act in 1952 — and to their adoptive parents is incalculable. There is no doubt at all that legal adoption has been beneficial and I consider it most appropriate that the Government should bring forward a proposal, which has already been outlined by the Minister for Health, to extend the circumstances in which children may be adopted.

I think it would be true to say that over the 35 years since the introduction of legal adoption there has been a shift in emphasis in its philosophical basis. Initially the main thrust in the development of our policies came from a desire to help parents who had no children of their own and also to help the unmarried mother who did not wish or was unable due to various circumstances, to retain her child. The new laws, commencing with the 1952 Act, which were then necessary, dealt with fundamental issues affecting the individual and the family and it was thought appropriate that the Minister for Justice should introduce the necessary supportive legislation.

Now 35 years down the road we are still, of course, concerned about helping the childless couple and the unmarried mother but we are giving much greater emphasis to the needs and happiness of the child himself or herself. Child care and welfare policies are now the main considerations in framing recommendations or legislation and this is reflected in the fact that responsibility for the adoption services was transferred from the Minister for Justice to the Minister for Health in 1983.

As Minister for Health, One of Deputy Desmond's first decisions in relation to adoption, was to establish a review committee to consider the adoption services, responsibility for which had been passed to him. The review committee, chaired by a senior official in the Department of Health, included representatives of the health services, legal profession, adoptive parents and the Adoption Board. The committee's report, which was published in 1984, was the first comprehensive review of the operation of the adoption system since legal adoption was introduced. I compliment Deputy Desmond for initiating such a valuable report and of course we are all indebted to the members of the review committee for their thorough and professional approach to their task. The method they adopted and the report they brought forward was speedy and effective.

The report dealt with all aspects of the existing laws and procedures in relation to adoption and contained a number of recommendations which would radically alter the structure of the present system. The report will be the subject of careful consideration by the Minister for Health and myself in the coming months. Our examination will, of course, take account of the many constructive and helpful submissions on the report made to my Department by a wide range of interested organisations. We will also take into account the many speeches made on this Bill this evening and the discussion which will take place on Second Stage in this House.

One of the principal recommendations of the report related to the extension of eligibility for adoption to legitimate children with parents alive. The former Government introduced an adoption Bill, last November to extend the circumstances in which children could be adopted to permit in exceptional cases the adoption of legitimate children. The decision to proceed initially with this particular recommendation of the review committee was, I feel, wholly appropriate given the various complex constitutional issues surrounding the proposal.

The Minister has already explained to the House that the Government agree in principle with the proposal to provide for the adoption of legitimate children in exceptional circumstances and I emphasise "exceptional circumstances". This, of course, is also the basic principle of Deputy Shatter's Private Member's Adoption Bill, 1987. However, I am in full agreement with the Minister's submission to the House that because such legislation would represent an important new social provision and because great care must be taken to ensure its constitutional soundness, the Government consider it would be appropriate for them to initiate the legislation itself rather than that it should be considered in Private Members' time. The Minister and I have been examining the Bill introduced by Deputy Desmond.

In this regard the Minister has been working on this legislation and, as the House is aware, the Department of Health have been extremely busy since the new Government took office. Not a week has passed without the Minister or myself being active in some debate on the working of the Department. This is a relatively small Department.

That is why it would be easier to take this Bill.

Accept the help offered.

I recall when——

It would be better if we could close orphanages rather than hospitals.

Some years ago Deputy Harney was a colleague in this party and we brought forward a Private Members' Bill dealing with local radio. It is very appropriate that Deputy Mitchell is in the House this evening because he is the last Deputy who could possibly agree to the Government adopting Private Members' legislation. If he had been progressive in 1983 we would have local radio legislation enacted.

We are talking about adoption.

I compliment Deputy Shatter who put so much time into preparing this legislation. I know from experience that it is a very considered move to bring forward Private Members' legislation. When Deputy Mitchell was Minister for Communications I was disappointed he was not prepared to accept our Bill.

As I said, this is a relatively small Department employing roughly 300 people, and since we came into office some weeks ago we have had so many demands on our time that it has not been possible to give this matter the full consideration it should be given. Because this legislation is so sensitive, it is vitally important that it be scrutinised rigorously by the Department, the legal officers and the Government to ensure that what we bring forward is constitutional.

The Department looked at this last year.

The differences is that we have a new Government who must make up their minds on all legislation. We are not tied to legislation brought forward by a previous administration, and the Opposition are aware of that. It is only right and proper that the present Fianna Fáil Government should have an opportunity to carefully consider every aspect of this very important legislation. In fairness to this legislation and to this House, I do not believe it should be rushed through or that we should think it must be passed in a very short time because it has major implications for legitimate children in difficult circumstances. As Deputy Harney said, these children do not have their own political lobby. We have to be conscious of the rights of children and the rights of parents when we are putting legislation through this House.

We feel that it will be necessary to consider carefully various options in the light of the submissions received in my Department since the Bill's publication. The Government accordingly have agreed to have a Bill prepared to revise the law on the adoption of children and to introduce it at the earliest possible date.

The Minister has given the House a general outline of the options that might be incorporated in the Government's Bill. For my own part, at this stage I would just wish to emphasise that our policy in the Department of Health is that every child should be brought up in his or her own family. Nothing in our present policies or our proposals for the future diminishes that principle. Every thoughtful and informed person involved with the child care services recognised the incomparable benefits of a family upbringing. The main thrust of future developments will, therefore, be to provide family support services which will prevent or diminish the need for parents to part with their children on either a short term or long term basis. There are, unfortunately, and will continue to be, unhappy, abused and neglected children from inadequate and broken families with multiple problems. The State, representing our collective responsibility as citizens, has an obligation to seek a secure and happier future for such children.

There have been many calls over the years for changes in the adoption laws to enable the adoption of children born within marriage who, for varying reasons, have been separated from or abandoned by parents who are unlikely to resume, or are incapable of resuming, their parental role. Most of these children would at present be in the care of health boards and would be either with foster parents or in residential children's homes. Some of the children would, however, have been placed previously with friends or relatives and would be unlikely to have come to the attention of the public child care system.

The legislation which the Government intend to introduce shortly is not intended in any way to deter families in genuine difficulty seeking to have their children cared for temporarily either in a residential setting or with a foster family. The proposed legislation will only be appropriate in a small number of cases where all hopes of reconciliation between a child and his parents have been lost.

The great majority of children placed in care will be reunited with their parents. This is the aim of the health boards and those caring for children. However, where a child has no prospect of returning to his natural parents, his foster parents will now have an opportunity of offering the child integration within their own family. This is of paramount importance. Like most Deputies, I am frustrated if there are delays in bringing forward legislation, especially when in Opposition. When one is interested in a particular subject, and one would like to see things moving faster——

When does the Minister think he will have the legislation before the House?

As a parent I would be very concerned about rushed legislation. I do not want to provide legislation which would be of benefit to the legal profession.

Nobody is talking about rushing things. We have the Committee Stage——

I know many lawyers who would be only too delighted to have the opportunity of the lucrative business of ill prepared legislation having to be sent to the courts.

That is a mean shot.

It is depressing that the Minister has to descend to irrelevant innuendo when dealing with such a serious issue.

I do not think what I am saying is irrelevant.

The senior Minister adopted a much more responsible approach than the junior Minister.

As far as I am concerned, the Department will prepare legislation very carefully and as expenditiously as possible. We are very concerned about this area of social change and when we bring forward legislation it will have the full support of the Department and the law officers whose views will have been fully considered. We would be concerned about the constitutional challenge to the legislation because it could be defective. Even though Deputy Shatter is a lawyer, the services available in my Department are far superior to anything he may have at this disposal.

Debate adjourned.
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