Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 9 Jun 1987

Vol. 373 No. 4

Order of Business.

The Taoiseach

It is proposed to take Nos. 18 and 6.

It is also proposed that the Dáil shall sit later than 9 p.m. today and not later than 11.30 p.m. and business shall be interrupted at 11 p.m.

It is further proposed that the proceedings on the Second Stage of the Finance Bill shall be brought to a conclusion not later than 7 p.m. today and the Minister for Finance shall be called on to conclude not later than 6.40 p.m. today.

It is further proposed that No. 6 shall be taken without debate and the Supplementary Estimate shall be taken immediately afterwards.

It is further proposed that, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, the debate on the Supplementary Estimate being taken today shall include a general debate on Vote 35 and shall be brought to a conclusion not later than 11 p.m. today.

It is further proposed that, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, the following arrangements shall apply for the debates on the Estimates being taken this week:

(1) The opening speech of the Minister moving the Votes shall not exceed 30 minutes.

(2) The speech of any other member shall not exceed 20 minutes.

(3) No member shall speak more than once in each debate with the exception of the Minister moving the Votes who shall be called on to conclude not later than 10 minutes before the respective Votes conclude.

Private Members' Business shall be No. 31.

An Ceann Comhairle

Are the arrangements for the late sitting agreed? Agreed.

Are the arrangements in respect of the Finance Bill being brought to a conclusion at 7 p.m. agreed? Agreed.

Are the arrangements in respect of taking the Estimates agreed? Agreed.

Mr. Dukes

Would the Taoiseach tell the House whether the Government have received a report from the Boundaries Commission set up last January?

An Ceann Comhairle

That does not arise on the Order of Business.

Mr. Spring

No television cameras, no reply.

Mr. Dukes

Deputy Kennedy is well aware of the degree of inventiveness that appears in the Sunday newspapers.

Miss Kennedy

I never opened my mouth, the wrong Deputy again.

Mr. Keating

On the Order of Business I have two questions. First, would the Taoiseach indicate whether his legislative programme for the remainder of this year includes any proposal to redraw constituency boundaries? Perhaps the Taoiseach would like to answer that.

An Ceann Comhairle

I am afraid that legislation has not been promised.

(Interruptions.)

Mr. McDowell

Is that a promise or a threat?

Mr. Keating

In that case I am hardly consoled as it is almost certain to be introduced. It depends on to whom one is speaking. There has been a fair amount of speculation and there have been indications that such is likely to be considered. Would the Taoiseach like to give even a monosyllabic answer?

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy will have to find another way of raising that matter.

Mr. M. Higgins

I note on the Order Paper today the terms of reference of four proposed committees, including a Joint Committee on the Secondary Legislation of the European Communities, a Joint Committee on the Irish Language, a Joint Committee on Women's Rights and a Joint Services Committee. I note the absence of any reference to a foreign affairs committee. Might I ask the Taoiseach if he proposes to bring forward proposals to establish a joint all-party foreign affairs committee?

The Taoiseach

I have no such proposal at present. My thoughts on this matter are that we should set up these committees immediately, get them into operation and then discuss other committees which might or might not be set up. I should like to point out to the Deputy that if anything in the nature of a foreign affairs committee were to be set up it would involve legislation affecting the Joint Committee on Secondary Legislation of the European Communities.

Mr. M. Higgins

I might put the following suggestion to the Taoiseach, that is, looking through the terms of reference of the Joint Committee on Secondary Legislation of the European Communities, on which both he and I have sat in the past, I note that they are quite narrow and explicit. Therefore it is possible to draft a foreign affairs committee, as outlined in the proposals in the names of myself and other Deputies of the Labour Party on this Order Paper which would not impinge at all on the terms of reference of the Joint Committee on the Secondary Legislation of the European Communities. I cannot for the life of me see why such a request is not being acceded to in view of the popular public support there is for the establishment of such a committee.

An Ceann Comhairle

I am afraid we cannot debate the matter today.

Mr. Allen

Might I address two questions to you, Sir, in as orderly a manner as possible? I put down a Private Notice Question today asking the Taoiseach to instruct the Minister for Health to intervene personally in the non-consultant hospital doctors' strike because of the threat of an escalation of the strike tomorrow.

An Ceann Comhairle

We have just had that matter in the House.

Mr. Allen

It is even more relevant because in replying the Minister said he had no intention of intervening.

An Ceann Comhairle

If the Deputy is referring to a question I disallowed it is not in order for him to raise it now and the Deputy knows that very well.

Mr. Allen

It is an urgent matter, if the strike escalates tomorrow.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy seems to persist in raising questions on the Order of Business. If the Deputy wants any elaboration on my rulings, I will be glad to meet him in my office.

Mr. Allen

I wish to raise the matter on the Adjournment, with your permission.

An Ceann Comhairle

I will communicate with the Deputy. I wanted to call Deputy De Rossa.

Mr. Allen

Might I deal with my second question. I am raising this along with other Deputies who have been hit by the same correspondence from you today, Sir.

An Ceann Comhairle

Is this in respect of a ruling?

Mr. Allen

——dealing with the closure of the North Infirmary in Cork. My question was disallowed because——

An Ceann Comhairle

I have given the Deputy an explanation as to why his question was disallowed. If the Deputy requires any further elaboration my office will be glad to assist him in the matter.

Mr. Allen

——the Minister made a statement in the House some time ago.

An Ceann Comhairle

It is disorderly to challenge the ruling of the Chair on such matters.

Mr. Allen

Can you quote me a precedent, Sir?

Proinsias De Rossa

First, could the Taoiseach indicate what progress has been made in the Whips' discussions which he indicated would take place concerning the reintroduction of the Homeless Persons Bill in the Dáil before the summer recess? Second, I want to raise on the Adjournment the refusal by Temple Street Hospital to provide emergency services to a two-year-old child last night and to a nine-year-old child this morning because the adults with them did not have £10.

An Ceann Comhairle

I will communicate with the Deputy in respect of that matter.

The Taoiseach

On the Homeless Persons Bill, the Minister is very anxious to get ahead with that legislation but he has promised certain bodies who are directly involved in the matter of housing homeless persons to have consultations with them. Those consultations have not yet been concluded.

Mr. R. Bruton

A Cheann Comhairle, I wish to seek your guidance on a question. Last week during the Estimates debates I was very surprised to learn that the Minister had given a press briefing and had released his script in advance of the debate. I wonder if that is in line with normal procedure of the House and if you could ask the Taoiseach whether he would——

An Ceann Comhairle

It is not a matter for the Chair, Deputy.

Mr. R. Bruton

Can you refer the question to the Taoiseach as to whether that will be the procedure on Estimates?

Mr. Dukes

It is a breach of privilege.

An Ceann Comhairle

It may be a matter for the Committee on Procedure and Privileges, as the Deputy said.

Mr. Stagg

In view of the surprising inability of the Minister for Health to provide figures for the use of consultants' services by private patients in public hospitals and in view of the very strong suspicion that there is an overuse in this area, may I ask the Taoiseach if he will consider introducing regulations to ensure that public moneys——

An Ceann Comhairle

That does not arise on the Order of Business, Deputy Stagg.

Mr. Stagg

A Cheann Comhairle——

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy will have to find another way of raising that matter. There are various avenues open to him.

Mr. Stagg

I am asking that regulations——

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Mary Harney.

Mr. Stagg

——be introduced to ensure that the use of public moneys be accounted for.

An Ceann Comhairle

Order. Deputy Harney has been called. Deputy Stagg, please.

Miss Harney

May I ask the Taoiseach, on the Order of Business, if, in the absence of the Minister for Justice, and in view of the discussion tomorrow morning on what has become known as the Cavan rape case, it will be possible for him to make available to Deputies, particularly spokespersons for the various parties, the transcripts of this case? I know it is not usual in cases where there is no appeal to transcribe the proceedings but I think the Taoiseach will recognise that it is very difficult for Deputies, given the conflicts that have occurred in the media reporting of this case, to have a fruitful discussion if we do not have the transcript of these proceedings.

The Taoiseach

I will see what can be done to help Deputies to get the maximum amount of information possible because I am very well aware of the grave public disquiet which prevails about the matter.

Mr. J. Bruton

I wish to inquire about two items of legislation. Can the Taoiseach advise if export promotion legislation will be introduced in this session to extend the statutory limits which apply to Córas Tráchtála?

The Taoiseach

Yes.

Mr. J. Bruton

When precisely?

The Taoiseach

It is under active discussion at present.

Mr. J. Bruton

May I ask the Taoiseach to ensure that the Bill will be circulated in good time to allow study of the legislation before it is discussed here?

The Taoiseach

I will be very anxious to do that because it is a very important matter. I am sure the Deputy will appreciate that it is very complex and that there are fairly tangled questions of principle to be decided or rather questions of demarcation as to who should do what job in relation to marketing and export. I can assure the Deputy that the matter is under very active consideration at the moment.

Mr. J. Bruton

Can the Taoiseach indicate if the Government have decided that they can proceed with legislation to ratify the International Patents Convention and if the constitutional difficulties which were thought to be preventing the introduction of such legislation have been overcome? If that is the case it would be most welcome.

The Taoiseach

I cannot give the Deputy that assurance at present.

Mr. J. Bruton

I hope to raise this matter next week and perhaps the Taoiseach would have information at that stage.

Mr. Deenihan

I wish to raise on the Adjournment the continuing failure of the Government to sign the contract to enable the much needed extension to Coolard national school, County Kerry, to go ahead.

An Ceann Comhairle

I will communicate with the Deputy.

Mr. Keating

I wish to raise an item relating to the Order of Business for today and the schedule of business for the week. The Taoiseach and the House may know that discussions at present between the Whips are exclusively, in a formal sense, between the Government Whip and the Fine Gael Whip. There are limited times, of two, three or four hours, for debate on a number of items on the schedule of business this week. The principle adopted for the Order of Business today is one that commends itself, I am sure, to many Deputies, that is that there is an internal limitation on the length of speeches on those items. Will the Taoiseach agree in principle to incorporate that procedure into debates generally? For example, I am referring to the statements on the Cavan rape case tomorrow and the Urban Renewal Bill which will be debated immediately after it. In the former case only two hours are allocated for debate. If there is not some internal control on the length of speeches that means that the vast majority of members on all sides of the House cannot participate in debates. I am asking a procedural question in relation to the need to impose an internal time limit on the length of speeches, if there is to be a limit on discussion generally in relation to issues. I think that is something that would commend itself generally to the House and would afford everyone a democratic entitlement to participate.

The Taoiseach

That is something that has to be decided from time to time in accordance with the matter to be discussed.

Mr. Keating

It does not present a problem today because as it happens the Order of Business indicates a time limit on the items to be discussed. However, I gather that on the first item to be taken tomorrow that may be the case but in relation to the Urban Renewal Bill there is only an hour or two allocated for discussion. Second Stage is to conclude not later than 7 p.m. Without some kind of control on the length of speeches, surely that is unrealistic. Maybe this can be discussed tomorrow morning. We start tomorrow morning with a two-hour discussion on the Cavan rape case without any agreement, as far as we are formally aware, on the limitation of time of speakers. That may mean theoretically that two speakers can take up the whole time allotted for discussion of that case in which many speakers in the House are interested and want to participate.

An Ceann Comhairle

There are varying ways and means by which the House can agree on such matters.

Mr. Keating

What does that mean?

An Ceann Comhairle

By discussion between the Whips.

Mr. Keating

There are a number of Whips in this House but only two——

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy McDowell.

Mr. Keating

On a point of order, a Cheann Comhairle, your answer to my intervention is that the Whips can sort this out. I would not be raising the matter if the Whips of a number of parties in this House were involved in those discussions but they are not, they are excluded systematically and that is precisely the reason I am raising it. All we are asking is for the right to participate in the debate to a reasonable extent and I trust the Taoiseach sympathises with that. Otherwise we will be forced to raise the issue everyday and to challenge the Order of Business everyday.

Mr. McDowell

May I ask the Taoiseach whether, in connection with the proposed legislation to develop an international financial services centre on the Custom House Docks site, he has any proposals to introduce legislation for data protection. This country will not be able to function as an international financial services centre unless such legislation is brought forward and rapidly.

The Taoiseach

It is on its way.

Mr. Stagg

And if there will be creches for the staff there?

Miss Flaherty

Is it the intention of the Taoiseach and the Government to resume the debate on the Clinical Trials Bill before the recess?

The Taoiseach

I will communicate with the Deputy about that matter.