asked the Minister for Justice the measures, if any, he intends to take to ensure that the quality of educational services in prisons and the level of staffing is maintained; and if he will make a statement on the matter.
Ceisteanna — Questions. Oral Answers. - Prison Educational Facilities.
6.
I have already outlined in some detail the wide variety of educational programmes and facilities available in the various prisons and the number of teachers involved in prison education in replies to recent parliamentary questions on 27 May 1987 and on 9 June 1987.
My Department, in conjunction with the VECs and other education authorities, constantly seek to adapt the content and methods of prison education to the particular needs of prisoners. Efforts continue to be made to improve the quality of this specialised work by sponsoring prison teachers to follow external courses that are relevant to prison teaching and by organising special internal courses.
The allocation to educational services in my Department's Estimates for 1987, which covers fees, equipment and materials for education and libraries in prisons, has been increased to £235,000 compared to 1986 expenditure of £176,000. The salaries of most of the teachers employed in the prisons are paid by the relevant VECs.
Staffing levels are primarily a matter for the VECs who provide education in the prisons and for the Minister for Education. I am not aware of any proposals to reduce the number of teachers currently allocated to the prisons.
Has the Minister taken issue with the Minister for Education in regard to remarks she made recently at a teachers' conference to the effect that one area to be considered for cutbacks to meet budgetary requirements was prison education? Has he put a stop to that kind of very narrow thinking?
The position is as I outlined it in my reply to the question on the Order Paper in the name of Deputy Mac Giolla.
I appreciate that it is the Minister's responsibility primarily. My question, which he has not replied to, was whether he has brought that point to bear on his colleague who had no business making threats about education in prisons, which is his responsiblity. Has he spoken to her at all, even in passing, about what she referred to?
The Deputy will appreciate that I am always on the best speaking terms with the Minister for Education.
The Department of Justice are responsible for the provision of all services other than the staffing of these facilities. Therefore, would it not be worth while if the Department took over the staffing in order to provide a complete service?
I am not sure if that would be a wise thing to do, because the type of teacher varies to a great degree, depending on the institution, on the offenders and the courses they want to follow. From experience it has become clear that the VECs are in the best position to provide the range of teaching skills needed to give a very comprehensive type of education to offenders. If we were to have a section of the Department of Justice picking and choosing teachers we could not give as good a service as we are getting now. That is my personal view but I am prepared to look into the Deputy's suggestion and see if it has any merit.
Is there much point in providing facilities if the staff are not there? If you find different situations varying from VEC to VEC because of the allocation of funds to each VEC, one VEC might think it necessary, because of the allocation of funds to them not to provide the necessary staff. What we should be doing in relation to education in prisons is trying to have the staff to give the education.
One would think in looking at the prison system that the area in which we would have the greatest difficulty would be County Cavan where Loughan House is situated. I was there last weekend. There are nine or ten teachers there provided by the VEC and there is an extremely wide range of subjects available to the offenders. I was very impressed by the way the County Cavan VEC have been helping and I am grateful to them for doing so. Perhaps VEC students in other places would wish for a service like that in Loughan House.
Is the Minister aware that as a result of pressure on accommodation in the Dublin prisons some accommodation in Mountjoy and Arbour Hill which formerly was used for education has been taken away from that use and put to prisoner detention use and that this is having a serious impact on the education facilities being provided in these prisons?
Everybody in the country is aware of the serious difficulty about accommodation in prisons. Today I had to release approximately 20 young offenders who had not completed their sentences to make room for others. It is quite a serious problem. All available accommodation is being used. Our prisons are bursting to overflowing, and that is the reality.
My question was whether the lack of accommodation is affecting the education services in prisons.
Deputies will have to find some other opportunity to raise this matter. We have dealt with only six questions in three-quarters of an hour. This is not good enough. It is tediously disadvantageous to other Members. Would Deputy McCartan resume his seat — you have no right to stand until I call you. I will hear one final supplementary from the Deputy and then I will go on to the next question. I am getting no co-operation.
My last question was, would the Minister be agreeable to meet a delegation from the Probation and Welfare Officer branch of the Union of Professional and Technical Civil Servants who are concerned about this area and who have a very good proposition to make in regard to the non-custodial needs of prisoners? It would alleviate overcrowding and improve the education standards.
If the group named by the Deputy would like to make a submission to me I will have the submission considered and if I think it is necessary to meet them I will do so. I, too, am giving much thought to other measures and methods in an effort to deal with the problem. The Deputy will probably be aware that it was I who introduced the Community Works Order when I first took on this job. I should like to see that concept expanded to a great degree, and I will tell the Deputy why. It costs approximately £500 per week to maintain an offender in Mountjoy or Arbour Hill whereas if we maintained somebody on a works order it would cost only £28.50 a week.